Many of my friends who play this music have formed bands in recent years. They rarely or only occasionally get paying gigs--mostly they seem to lose money traveling great distances to play at small festivals or as filler on off nights at pubs.
When they do get paid, it hardly ever covers their gas and lodging costs. And I'm amazed at how much work and time they put into arranging sets, rehearsing, researching and buying sound systems, schlepping and setting up equipment for each gig, doing sound checks, traveling, promoting themselves to venues, etc. Some of them have also spent oodles of money and time recording cds and then spend even more time and money marketing and trying to sell them.
I know a couple of bands that spent a lot of time and money getting to a festival last weekend only to get rained out. So they didn't even get to perform.
To me, this all looks like a lot of trouble, inconvenience, and cost, with very little in return. So I'm curious what the attraction is for the people who do this. I've talked with some of these friends about it--these are mostly people in their 50s who harbor no fantasies about being the next Irish superband. They gave the following answers:
- It's something fun to do now that I'm retired from my day job.
- I get a buzz from performing in front of an audience.
- It compels me to practice more, so I'm a better musician for it.
- The overall ensemble is musically better and more rewarding than my local session, which is diluted by people less serious about or new to the music.
Those are good reasons, but they still wouldn't be enough to persuade me to be in a touring band. I did that when I was in my late teens and twenties--maybe I just got it out of my system. (Also, our band--a bluegrass quintet--actually made a living at it.)
I get most of those utils just by playing in sessions, without any of the hassles of being in a working band. That said, a few of my session mates and I function as a band of sorts, playing the occasional wedding or charity function. We tend to structure the gigs more like sessions, unless the client really wants a performance. And we rarely--hardly ever--travel out of town for gigs. So when we get paid, we do make a profit. (And so far, we don't use a sound system--not much work involved in setting up, etc.) In short, we turn down gigs that are more trouble than they're worth. So we don't do a lot of gigs.
My cynical side wonders if forming a band is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to our celebrity culture. We're flooded with images of musicians as performers, entertainers. Making music is popularly thought of as something that professionals do, no longer a layperson's hobby. So if you play music at all, there's an expectation (perhaps even among the amateur musicians themselves) that you should perform. Even if it's a losing proposition and ends up being more work than fun.
But maybe that is some people's idea of fun. Nothing wrong with that.
So I'd like to hear from you amateur musicians who enjoy playing in a band--why do you do it? What do you get out of it (that a session doesn't give you)? If you're in a band at the moment, are you enjoying it, or is it more work than it's worth?
LOL - you sir have the perspective of past experience and age on your side. I too chased that neon rainbow for 17 years of my young life in all sorts of bands - but I would loath to be in a band now. However, I would be amazed if anyone agreed with "celebrity status" as a motivating factor especially in a trad band. Time to check you cynical side CPT - it's shifting into overdrive.
I have spent oodles of money on golf - traveling distances play and buying more gear - I still stink. But I enjoy it tremendously. I would wager a person in their 40s or 50s forming a trad band is essentially doing the same thing. It's fun! (at least for them)
They may well be people who fantasised about playing in bands when they were young, and only got the chance decades down the line - but are thereby Living The Dream, reconnecting with their younger selves, and cheerfully indifferent to the absurdities you mention.
You did it early, got it out of your system, and moved on!
I played in a band several years back in Colorado. We had a weekly gig and once or twice a month some better paying gigs —essentially a part-time band.
From my own perspective, playing with a small group of folks in a more focused venue, paid or not, is much more fun and fulfilling than a session atmosphere. There are sessions that are more focused and interactive, but all too often that is not the case.
I personally don't care much for all that celebrity stuff either. I like to hear good bands play, but the whole scene with international stardom has become a bit over played over the years.
That's how it gets started... All the bands I ever got roped into or gave birth to were from one need ~ live music for dance... It was a kick, and yes, we did things out of pocket sometimes, and there was travel, and we did charity events, and we threw parties and held other events. No, even if I got all that money back with interest, and it would be a tidy sum, I wouldn't undo a second of it, even the hassles that sometimes came from lost sleep and other hassles, a kind of general rattiness that can come over you ~ and even some of the assholes we had to deal with ~ no, we never made the status of "The Beatles" or "The Stones" or "Planxty" or "The Bothy Band" or ~ any endless number of different flash groupings ~ it was a kick, great fun, and as said, we weren't looking for stardom, though there were some strange folk that waved that promise in our faces ~ we just wanted live music and dance, and loved doing it, and all the sweat and hardship and heartache that came with it... Let me as one of our regulars, see if it's a concensus ~ one moment ~
For me, it is an opportunity to spend my free time (when I am not working at my day job at a hospital) doing one of the few things in life which I truly and genuinely enjoy doing. I feel more alive, alert, and aware when I am playing music. I have been playing music for approximately forty years now and I would like to spend as much of my free time as possible playing music for the rest of my life.
I have done the traveling musician thing and I have talked to people who used to be professional musicians. I decided that it would be better for me to continue to work my day job and indulge myself playing music in my free time when I wasn't working at my job.
I like my job at a hospital and look forward to going to work because I feel as if I am doing something useful by helping to take care of sick people.
I am lucky enough to live in a place where there is a variety of situations (such as jam sessions of various types) where I can indulge myself by playing music. I have been sitting in and playing one instrument or the other at various local jam sessions since 1990 and I still enjoy it.
For the past five years, I have been playing my acoustic bass fiddle with a mandolin and guitar group. I enjoy making music with these people and it has really helped improve my bass playing also.
From 1996-1998, I played piano with a band which was started by some of the musicians at the local Irish Session. We played Irish and Scottish music and I did enjoy performing with them. We played regularly and I think we were properly reimbursed for our performing.
This is my answer to your questions, Will CPT. Is it good enough for you?
I have a couple of friends who are great fiddlers and inventive musicians and we like to play a wide range of tunes in a style that would be mostly frowned upon at any session (lots of chords and harmonies). And sometimes after spending an evening getting an arrangement just right we get the notion that we should try it out in front of a few people. We don't travel far though - down to a farmer's market or something similar. Anyway, it's all purely for fun, but it's fun to share it too.
Well, I am in a couple of bands, as you know, Will.
One of them is mostly like your session-band... Formed mostly so that we could say "yes" when someone came up to us at a session and asked if we could play for their wedding (which tend to be fairly good paying gigs, relatively speaking). We have a general set list of things that we have worked up that don't require much practice. Although, we haven't had any gigs in almost a year.
The other band is really the brainchild of a fiddler friend of mine, who is also a singer (sean nós, as well as more modern and fun songs), and he wanted an avenue for arranging and showcasing the songs, in a way that you can't (and shouldn't) really do in sessions.
So my reasons for being in the band are really to help push myself to get better, and have some fun with my friends along the way.
I lied, I also have a third "band", that we don't call a band, and we don't rehearse, and we don't have a set list. But they are some of my absolute favorite people to play with, and we do it for the craic, because it's often some of the best music. That band doesn't even have a set name (we choose a new name for each gig - and the only caveat is that it has to have the word "back" in name somewhere - long story...) That band just picks up the odd gig here and there, and we treat it like a session.
And I think you're right, at least a bit, about the star-struck culture we grew up in. It's still hard not to treat talented performers like stars (much to their chagrin, most of the time in ITM).
But for me, there's another motivation. I am a traditionalist when it comes to this music. I generally despise the plastic paddy, green beer, Wild Rover, renaissance-sounding sh*te that passes for "Irish" in the US. So I will go out of my way, many times at my own expense, to bring some real traditional music to people, with the hopes that it might open their eyes to how ridiculous most of the crap they consider to be "real Irish" actually is.
"The overall ensemble is musically better and more rewarding than my local session, which is diluted by people less serious about or new to the music." Sounds about right to me, in theory anyway.
I also enjoy the challenge of designing a show--face it, that's what it is--trying to choose the right sets of tunes for the occasion, get the overall pacing right, throw in some novelties, etc. You know, all the "show-biz" stuff that is not appropriate at sessions.
Bands and sessions both have their respective good points, I think. I'm always hoping for the best of both worlds.
That just reminded me of my one and only ren-faire gig nearly 16 years ago. We had finished up our set of the aforementioned plastic paddy tunes and retired to the large room behind the stage to put our gear away. Much to our amazement and delight there were rows of food baskets, bottles of beer, fine whiskeys, freshly baked bread, cookies, sausages - treats of every sort. We spent the next 15 minutes feasting like savages. How nice, we all thought, that the faire organizers would set out such a spread for the musicians.
As I was about to open a nice bottle of Bushmills Blackbush, we heard the voice over the PA out front "...and now it's time for the raffle of fine whiskeys and food baskets!"
"Oh Jaysus" said our Belfast born band leader "Let's get the f*** outa here!"
The dudes in our band are our core session players. We don't travel, we do gigs locally, are absurdly choosy, and have a great time. I do some solo gigs too. Yeah, I think it's a little ego, it satisfies something artistically in me, maybe. The money's great, oh wow, yeah. [/sarcasm] It's certainly not the entourage, those people eat me out of house and home, the lazy sycophants...and the paparazzi? Don't get me started. [/even more]
At sessions I'm so focused on being inclusive. Performing is an outlet artistically where I can be a selfish musical bast*rd. Well, I must not be that selfish, because I don't do a lot of it.
I love sessions, don't get me wrong. You're sharing the love for the music with all sorts of folks, and that's wonderful, and what it's all about. Perhaps I just want the music all to myself every once in a while. A little personal time, a nice quiet, romantic evening with the music and an audience? What a selfish...
Ultimately, there's a real joy from playing with the same folks often enough where you're just so tight with everything you already know and are eager to learn new tunes together. Perhaps bands help people create those groups of like-minded folks when it can't be done in the session environment.
Best of both worlds? A session with a long-lasting, tight-knit core with a receptive audience you don't have to perform for.
I've been wondering about this for a while too, and I tend to agree with Will that the lure of celebrity has something to do with it. There's a Safety in Numbers factor as well.
Otherwise, why would some of these groups carry on when they clearly don't have the musical /performance skills to make a living at it?
Plus I think that people with little knowledge of the music industry (or maybe music in general) believe that "Music" happens in concert venues with a paying audience, because that's what they've been led to think. But that's what happens when you watch too much television.
Maybe we all go through a stage where we don't have enough sense to say "no" to our fantasy of making it big, and we aren't honest enough to recognize that we have a lot to learn musically.
On the other hand, this is one of those "experience comes from bad judgement" things (if you're lucky), where being in a band forces you to work your a$$ off to get better and deliver the goods. Plus it's a great way to meet <insert desired gender and partner specificationshere>.
Celebrity status definitely has nothing to do with my having maintained a band for 20 years now. We are profitable with our gigs, especially after having time to fine-tune the business end of things, but the motivation is in the pleasure of playing music. Since no one in our current band has stars in their eyes having a band name as opposed to going under our own names seems easier.
But if I were to take Will's thought a step further... it has always amused me how, as Americans, we tend to jump from beginner to being in a band prematurely. In Ireland you would never consider such a thing I imagine since the tradition doesn't include bands in the same way. You might join a Ceili band after you acquired a certain level of playing, but a band in the sense of a professional band is out of context with the tradition... at least according to my understanding anyway.
I admit that I'm guilty of making this leap, but I do realize it now after becoming more familiar with the tradition. At this point our "band" is more about just three people in the local session who have organized things so we can play for weddings, parties, festivals, concerts, etc., or whatever comes down the pike. The session is where we play the music for enjoyment and get a chance to learn and play new tunes with a variety of folks. Other than that the band isn't any big deal really.
Honestly? It's the feeling you get from being on stage, and knowing that your hard work has paid off. It feels amazing, even just for 2 minutes, knowing that those people took the time to listen to you play (especially without complaining )
The money actually doesn't matter at all. I've spent the last 3 years playing in a (very!) larger group where we can't charge anyone. We can only get donations. And even then, since we're a charity it benefits the whole group so no one gets money individually. When I do occasionally get a tenner or whatever, it'll only go on a cd or even reharing my bow, so nothing life changing, just useful!
But saying that, I still love playing some tunes with my friends whether there's anyone watching or not. I just love to play!
Are we talking about bands that play jigs, reels, hornpipes etc? At festivals? In the USA? All the festivals I see have the rocknroll/yell like a pirate bands coupled with violinists posing as fiddlers etc.
For me, the draw is that I like dance music and dancing. So I play with a dance band. We also do some gigs just for the listening public, small venues mostly, and they are also fun. A few bob in the pocket is nice, too, but hardly the only motive.
It is all about sharing the music, IMHO. Dancers, listeners, fellow musicians, whatever - sharing a good music with others is community of the highest order.
Hahahaha... indeed MH... they seem to get all those gigs. These are the bands I find most boring of all. They take up playing trad music and barely get their toes wet before deciding to turn it into a bad garage-band type Keltic Rock nightmare vanity band and start playing as if they've mastered Irish music. Then they convince clueless promoters into buying their crap. I can't tell you how many times I've overheard someone talking about one of these bands as if they were some sort of great Irish trad band. It helps when your audience doesn't know the difference I guess.
Well... I think that playing in a band is a great experience! And I honestly think every muscian should experience it! Because you get to work together with other musicians at arranging and performing!
And also about you're celebrity culture comment... I don't give 'celebrities' the time of day now! I mean the word Celebrity has lost all meaning!
Nahh I think most trad. or folk bands these days only form bands and perform because they enjoy it and want to share their music!
Everyone has to start somewhere and like myself (although I'm only a teen) usually start in a band who arn't paid that much and play in small venues and what have ya! But at the end of the day! It's just great fun and a great way to meet other people intrested in the same thing as you!
Along the lines of what Reverend posted....maybe they JUST HAVE FUN!!!
And yes, Merry Highlander, there are quite a few US festivals that showcase traditional music...unsure where you reside, but in the northeast / mid-atlantic areas and at the Milwaukee Fesival, too, you'll find brilliant "ITM," not just showbands and celtic rock bands.
I'm all for "sharing the music," and playing for dancers and being a positive influence, through music, in your community. Those are great reasons to play music.
But to me, that's what our *session* does. We don't need to be a band to do that. And a session (as much a Peyton Place as those can be) doesn't come with half the hassles as does a working band.
Don't get me wrong--I really do enjoy doing occasional gigs with my session mates as a "band." But it's mostly the sort of informal stuff several people cited above, and as Reverend says, a response to people who hear our session and ask us to play for a wedding or fundraiser. (Even our band name--"Special Session"--downplays our status as a band. We're more of a moveable session. Plus we get the double entendre, living in a state capital, of special legislative session, as though called in political emergency.)
I find ajh92's comment telling: "Everyone has to start somewhere....usually start in a band...."
That's exactly the sort of mindset that got me wondering about all this. ***Why*** a band? Why not start by going to sessions for 10 years and really getting grounded in this music?
As Phantom Button says, some people are a bit presumptuous, forming a band as soon as they have three tunes under their belts. Others just seem uninterested or even antagonistic to sessions in general, and find a band situation suits them better. Why? Is it a desire to be the center of attention? Or at least recognized as a performer? Or am I just jealous?
In our case the answer as to why we do it is easy: We get to play for dancers. A nice change of pace from the weekly session, and good discipline. We only play about four dances a year, and the halls provide the sound systems. Sometimes we make enough to pay for gas, but it's always great fun, in a different sort of way than the session.
I have a feeling that nobody's explanation will answer your question, because you're asking people to justify something you find boring or silly or a waste of time. It's not going to happen.
I play in an amateur band because I like it. I like to go to gigs and play this incredible music for people who don't know anything about it. And, as someone pointed out, there's safety in numbers, so any screwups aren't heard and aren't understood even if they are heard.
Can I explain it so you'll understand? No.
I don't "get" sports. I played sports in school and felt it was a waste of time. I don't understand why anybody would waste three seconds watching a sporting event on television, listen to it on the radio or spend $1 driving somewhere -- anywhere -- to watch a game in person. I feel the same way about beer. I hate the taste of it and just don't see the attraction.
Will you be able to convince me of the errors of my ways? Can any explanation of why sports is worth life itself, or the wonder of a great glass of Guinness, get me to understand? Nope. I find sports tedious at best and beer overrated.
So I doubt any of us who enjoy this will be able to answer your question to any degree that will change your mind.
I think you should just chalk it up to "those odd things people do that I don't" and let it go at that.
Ceolagusrince, I understand that some people find being in a band to be fun. But why? Especially given all the downsides (often losing money instead of making a profit, playing places with horrible acoustics, or to hostile or indifferent audiences, outdoors in bad weather, carting heavy gear around, and on and on).
Let me rephrase it. Many of the people I know who play in amateur bands complain about the conditions they perform under, the unprofitability, the scheduling, the hours of rehearsing, and the hassles and disappointments of playing through a sound system. But they keep doing it. What is it that so offsets these hassles that makes it all worth while, given that, unlike most other work, they are not making money (and instead are losing money) and they don't *have* to perform (that is, they could still share their music in less overwrought ways, such as simply playing sessions).
Just curious. And glad to see some good answers so far in this thread. Keep 'em coming.
LOL, Mandogal, I do "get it," having played in bands for many years. I'm just wondering why other people do it. I had my own reasons at the time, and they included not realizing that other options--such as sessions--were available for playing and sharing music.
But I also earned a living playing in bands. When the outgo exceeds the income, it becomes harder for me to justify treating a band like a job (with mandatory rehearsals and so on).
Someone above mentioned the enjoyment of working up songs and ensemble arrangements, and I really do understand that. One band of my friends exists precisely for that reason. It's their primary artistic outlet, and they want the sort of control a band affords over how they present the music. Grand. I get it.
No I'm not actually saying that you HAVE to start in a band!
Our band is an organised Feis band! So we all go in for the experience! It's for young people to experience working together... we don't make CDs or anything. It's just all about experience and I find it improves my playing!
Well, if the people you're referring to do it and complain about it, then they do it specifically to have something to complain about, of course. Sort of like some people enjoy poor health, if you get my drift.
I think you're poking at people to see how they jump -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We aim to amuse, after all.
You must understand Will that where both me and ajh92 live there isn't a vast number of sessions to go to. Without travelling for an hour I personally can't get to one. Therefore the "group" that I am in (not band, that isn't the right word as such), provides a chance to play with others. Not just learners, people of varying school age, who gradually learn from those around them. So possibly, in this sense the "experience" and starting in a band could be counted as a possible reason There is still of course the enjoyment factor as that is why we all do it! We're not forced, and we don't get any money from it.
No, really, I'm not poking at people or trying to stir the pot.
I went to a festival last weekend, and most of the people I used to session with were off playing on stage. When they finished, they avoided the sessions. So it seems they're forgoing sessions in favor of playing in a band. Made me wonder why, given that they complain about all the work, while a perfectly decent outlet for music (sessions) remains available to them.
And not just forgoing the festival sessions but their own local sessions during the year. All their time and energy available for music goes into the band...nothing left for sessioning.
I've seen this same thing happen elsewhere, among other people, and within other genres of music. Just wondering why.
Creathana, I was in the same spot once--hundreds of miles from the nearest Irish music or sessions. I live in Montana, USA.
So I started a session, not a band. It didn't take long for some of the participants to declare that we needed to be a band, too. And we did that--way before any of us was ready to play this music well, certainly in front of an audience. It was laughable. I soon quit the band and put my energy back into holding the session together. That proved to be enough work in itself, but was still far less time consuming than all the band rehearsals and travel to gigs, etc.
Our groups been over to Montana a couple of times, might have seen you maybe! But to be honest, a majority in the group play what they are given. They wouldn't go home, listen to a cd and learn some new tunes off of it. They just do what they have to do whilst in the group, however they do still seem to enjoy. Now I just have to hope and pray that no one else in the group is lurking.....
Actually, Will, I think your question cuts into the fiber of the difference between coming to the music inside of the culture or removed. If you learn a few guitar riffs or show ability on rock band instruments you're recruited into a rock band and begin your journey on the roulette wheel of pop-culture stardom. This gets confused with the pursuit of Irish music when you live outside the tradition and start learning tunes. The presumption often is that you should be in or form a "band" and pursue stardom. If you're within the tradition the pursuit of stardom makes no sense and a "band" seems just as silly.
So the bottom line is that you have everything in between mixed into the impulse to start or become part of a "band." The reasons people are compelled to do so vary and the circumstances regarding their location and pool of available players figures in. For that reason I can understand why people have the impulse to start a "band" when they're really better suited to just participate in sessions, but it probably has more to do with creating opportunities to play music. If they had loads of great sessions to go to they might be less inclined. Just a hunch.
On the other hand it's helpful to have a band identity when you're playing ITM in the outback of Irish music. I was on the phone yesterday with a Paddy who was looking to hire session players to play some "diddle-di" at his wedding in exchange for beer and gas money. Having a "band" presence on line allows people who actually want to hire us for a decent compensation are able to feel like they're getting the product they're looking for, and even Paddies can see that we provide something more than just transporting a musical social event to their wedding. They would be able to do that of course if they want, but they need to find a session and ask people there instead. Personally, unless they're my friends I wouldn't really be interested.
I think this is a good topic for discussion, Will, but had it been my thread I would have just posed the question to find out what people thought before expressing my own biases and opinions.
If a band gets paid for performing are they still an "Amateur" band? At what pay scale, audience size, band time to day job time ratio, or number of gigs per year does a band rise to semi-professional or professional musician status?
I have have a full time day job, but I play in a band because I like to perform. Sometimes the band gets paid well, sometimes we don't. Sometimes the lower paying gigs are a LOT more fun than the lucrative ones. Sometimes the whole short tour thing is like a mini vacation with a performance during the evenings where we're usually fed and "watered" appropriately--and we get to get people dancing and carrying on and forgetting their troubles for a short while. Seems like a good thing to me.
As for recording CDs. It's all a crap shoot right? My current band (fronted, with original music and all arrangements, by my wife) made our first CD before we started gigging. She just wanted some more product out there. The band hit it off so we started gigging... Then we made another CD... Then a big time movie director found one of our tunes from our first CD and added it (almost in its entirety) to a pilot for a TV series he was directing. The cash we made from that little bit of serendipity paid for the CD (all production, mastering and duplication costs) plus a small chunk of change for each member of the band. Had we had not made the CD, that wouldn't have happened.
Admittedly, we got lucky with the TV placement, but had that not had happened, is being in a band worth all the trouble for the monetary return? Bottom line is, nothing would have happened if we didn't put it out there--but even if that hadn't had happened I would still be in the band.
I did community theater for years--know what I mean?? 6 weeks of rehearsal, memorizing hundreds of lines, helping build the sets... then 10 shows over three weekends (hopefully to full houses) and it's done. Experience over. The stipend pays for a couple of nice dinners out and the reviews go into the scrapbook. Then it's on to the next show... Why would anyone in their right mind do something so arduous and time consuming for so little compensation? My answer: I love the theater.
I also love being in a band. It's a creative thing. Makes me feel alive, and it also makes me feel like I'm giving something to the community.
And we don't play trad... Well at least not "TRAD" trad... BWAAAHAHAHAHA!!!
Now we get the specifics. Changes the scope of the question a bit, eh?
I'm assuming you've asked them why? And are now looking for the truth?
The reason I play in a band would be an entirely different reason from why they would choose to do so and forego the sessions. It could be ego or politics or an excuse to get out of the house and meet women (or men, depending) among strangers who won't rat them out to their families. Or they could feel they have to suffer for their art. Or they like being part of an exclusive group where they can look down on the people who come to see them. They might not even know themselves.
Jack, I worried that if I just asked the question, people would read into it all sorts of evil ulterior motives. They will anyway. But by explaining my personal take on the matter, I was hoping to ward off knee-jerk defensiveness. As I said, I've been in bands, I'm not disparaging the idea, just wondering why others do it, despite the hardships.
gw, the analogy with community theater occurred to me, too. But drama types have no other outlet for their passion. Us Irish traddies do--sessions. I suppose if the concept of sessions didn't exist, most of us would play in bands.
And I like that at least a few people here can happily admit that they simply enjoy performing. More power to you! That blend of honoring traditional music while having the chutzpah and flare for entertaining and engaging an audience is a powerful combination. I thoroughly enjoy professional concerts by groups like Altan for just such reasons. And I'm sure there are some good amateur bands that do it justice as well.
Mandogal, you can keep reading dark motives into my thread if you want, but you'll be missing the point.
I'd really like to know *your* reasons. Yes, I do know why most of my friends do choose to do the band thing. So why do *you* like it?
You've already said that you enjoy bringing this music to people who aren't familiar with it, and I can see how that's often easier to do as a band than as a session. But what other warm fuzzies do you get from a band that you wouldn't get from a session?
Oh, and gw, I keep using the term "amateur" as short-hand for "bands that actually lose money yet keep performing anyway."
I don't mean that to sound disparaging, just realistic. And it gets to the heart of my curiosity--what could be so compelling about the band experience (and that you can't get from sessioning) that people would do it in spite of the hardships and expense? It's easier to understand when you actually make some money--even if just enough to help cover the costs of new strings, cds, etc. That's pretty much how my own amateur band works--we don't do paying gigs if we're going to lose money on them. But we do plenty of freebie gigs for good causes. In either case, our bottom line is that hassles should be at a minimum.
I'm currently playing in 2 duos (Scottish/Irish music), a 'bush' band (playing mostly traditional Australian tunes), attend 2 weekly sessions and i'm also a member of our local fiddle club.
I just enjoy playing music... that's all... and try to get in as much as i can. Sometimes i may miss a session because of a gig/rehearsal... but i'm still playing the music... which makes me happy!
Wow, what must it be like to be in one of those bands huh? You have the power to turn the local sessions into your personal band practices, with the potential for flogging some CDs afterwards, or to give the local session scene a miss entirely. There are people here in the Bay Area with living room furnishings made out of boxes of unsold - and unsellable CDs. God bless you guys. Except....I'm also off in a cloud cuckoo land of my own about this music. It has nothing to do with bands.
A lot of interesting comments above and many valid points to be agreed/argued with. I've been playing music since '64 when all you needed to know was 3 chords. A few friends got together and made music. It was fun, we felt a passion. We played in my parents Living Room. We were invited out to play dances. We started to attract the young girls. It was fun. We went our separate ways and I fell into a "band" during college. It helped pay the bills. I continued after school and it payed more bills and we toured up and down the East coast of the U.S. It was a job. It wasn't fun anymore. I stopped playing for 25 years and someone gave me a bodhran to beat. I was invited to play with a local group when a traveling fiddler sat down and we played. That was the first time in a long time that I felt I had made music. There is a difference between playing music and making music. Don't let anyone tell you different. The traveling fiddler invited me to a session. I traveled to Savannah, Ga.( 1 1/2 hours away) I sat in with these accomodating folks and I felt the passion again. It was fun again. Do we need to play for money ? No. We play because its fun. We're session players that get along great, we enjoy each others company and we have a passion. We make music, not just play. Getting money to play occasionally is a treat but not needed. Playing with people you like and enjoy their company is priceless.
Savannah Ceili Band
Sorry, I got carried away with my thoughts. To answer your question, Will, .."whats the attraction?'...no attraction, just fun. And if you must ask the question, you'll never know. I'm sure the question was rhetorical and I hope you "make "music everytime you play.
Cheers,
Have Goat...Will Travel
"That's exactly the sort of mindset that got me wondering about all this. ***Why*** a band? Why not start by going to sessions for 10 years and really getting grounded in this music?"
I don't have the skills to contribute positively to a public session, but I want to play music with others. The only way that seems possible is to form a "band". Even if it's a celtic rock band, it's still got the diddly. I can learn from it.
When I'm welcome at the local sessions here in Sonoma Co. I'll have achieved all I ever really wanted when I picked up the guitar(and recently mandolin) in the first place.
But you seem to have misunderstood the question. What is it about playing in a band that is more fun for some people than playing in a session? What is it about playing in a band (especially if it ends up costing you money, when most people at least initially think that they'll make money in a band) that keeps people doing it despite all the cost, effort, opportunity costs, etc.?
I have my answers. I'm sure other people have theirs. Would simply like to hear what those are.
... I once did a friend's 40th birthday in the foyer of the National Library ... I never would have got to play there otherwise. There was a dance caller (a relative) from Sydney and the company, food and craic was good. I've also done the amateur community drama production thingy. Not too serious and we certainly had fun workshopping it so we all brought something of ourselves into it. I recon its great to join community type "amateur bands, choirs, drama productions, etc etc" and to be part of community events, visit old peoples' homes, school fetes etc. and see people enjoying the proceedings, even getting up to dance and enjoy themselves - you don't have to be pro to do that kind of stuff, and who needs money for that kind of enjoyment, hey!
About 3 or 4 gigs a year - band line-up is always changing
Only do gigs if I think they will be fun to do or a friend's wedding or such-like.
Festival gigs are more about getting in free to the festival that I would have maybe gone to anyway.
As for the practice: I actually enjoy the practices for a gig. I get a sort of satisfaction out of doing something well with a bunch of friends with plenty of time to discuss the music and get it as good as we can. That's a different kind of fun to the session fun.
The people I gig with are the same people I session with.
The way I approach the gig experience there isn't really any negatives, though years ago I have done a few gigs from hell (another thread there). Those experiences have helped me to formulate what gigs I will pick now.
Maybe its just that some of us are at that point where we just like to play. Whether its in "loose" session or Organized band mode. You're making me think too hard, Will. My brains aching. Mad cow, you know.
Cheers
Sorry -- had to do some work.
Sigh. That's the trouble with typed responses. It's too easy to read stuff into them. I don't think you're doing anything deep or dark with your question (and I wasn't in a snit when I responded. More like amused, with one eyebrow raised and a tilt to the head).
I write for a living. It's the greatest job in the world. When people ask why I love my job, I can't really answer them. I'd write whether I got paid for it or not. Sometimes it's an incredible hassle. Sometimes it's pure bliss. when i'm with my coworkers, I joke that I write for free, I get paid to put up with the bullsh...
I think playing in a band is like that for me. I'd play whehter I was in a band or not. I play at home with no other audience than my husband, kids and the cat. I play on Monday nights when the band gets together, and I stay after to play the session that starts up when the beginners leave. It's a venue. It's a reason to take out my instrument. It's a reason to make music, to lose myself in melody and mood and gloriious, glorious sound and rhythm and pretend for just a short time that I have talent and can illuminate the world.
Yeah, I'm a writer, too. After 25 years, it still surprises me that people pay me to do this.
But I can articulate my reasons for loving it--I enjoy helping other people communicate, spreading understanding, I like the feel and sound and texture of words, of playing with them. I enjoy the simultaneously self-reflective and reader-sensitive act of putting thoughts on paper. I really like learning about the bazillion things I get to write about. I enjoy listening to people and then telling their stories to others. I enjoy painting a scene or a character with nothing but heiroglyphics. I like evoking tastes, smells, sights, and drawing someone into another place with just the right words.
So mandogal, those are the sorts of specifics I'm interested in about bands. You wrote: "I'd play whether I was in a band or not." Well, sure. Me too. No doubt most of us here feel the same way. The question is why, then, go the extra mile to play in a band, when you can be happy playing at home for the kids and cats.
And you revealed something when you said "....pretend for just a short time that I have talent and can illuminate the world."
Nice thread Will.
I'm just back from jamming on some jazz standards with the 'old boys' down at our local surf club on a beautiful sunny winter's day, watching a couple of whales frolicking in the bay. So many smiling people enjoying the vibe and I'm just glad to have been a part of it.
We're lucky to have some retired professional musos here, and after a lifetime of gigging they just play for enjoyment now as well as giving back something to the community.
Having the skills and opportunity to play music that brings enjoyment to people feels pretty good to me, even if we don't make any money out of it. I think plenty of older trad irish players would share similar attitudes.
As a person who has just joined a band (still havent done our first gig yet) I am getting real enjoyment with the arrangments - we do things in the band that just wouldnt be appropriate in sessions, not crazy way out fusion or anything, just little things....I'll let you know after our first gigs if I still like being in the band or not....I have a feeling not. I get the most awful stage fright I have even begun feeling sick with anticipation and the gigs are 6 weeks away
once when I was riding in my brother's car back in highschool he saw some girls skateboarding and he rolled down the window and yelled "skate chicks, why do you do it?" Anyway, Cruella - it sounds like you'll be just fine - it's when you don't have any feelings of sick anticipation that you get into trouble!
BB... you'll do fine! Playing on stage gets easier the more you do it... you can trust me on that. plus you'll have the support of your band members which makes a big difference.
Heh, the opera diva Beverly Sills threw up before every performance. Imagine putting yourself through that.
Beebs, it's normal to get wound up about it when you're new to the whole game. Just accept it and refocus on the music. You'll do great. If you flub the music, just flash your winning smile!
Apparently Paddy Keenan still gets really nervous before each gig....my friend backed him when he was on tour here...very nervous - it kind of makes him seem more human and less god like
Oh, and the anticipation is the worst of it. Once you're actually playing and interacting with the audience, things loosen up. Then the next time it's not such a leap into the unknown, and it gets easier and easier.
Ive been on stage before for little things here and there and usually with a big group of people...I feel so nervous before hand that I actually have to stop myself throwing up - last time I worked out that if I paced one way for 10 steps then turned and did the same thing over and over then I calmed down a little. I have to do a solo in the band - i'm most worried about that - no-one to hide behind
The thing is - some people really dont care about what people think of their playing. I am the complete opposite -and for some reason I really really really care what people think of my playing.. I have no idea why - my friends think I'm nuts
Sorry, but, airport---_girls_ skateboarding???? I have lived a long life, and seen many things--including many skateboarders--but I have never, ever seen any skateboarding girls. Something to look forward to, I guess. I'll add it to my Bucket List.
Almost back on track--It happens I'm likely to see Paddy Keenan do a house concert in a couple of weeks. It's reassuring to learn that he's human.
Fully back to the subject: That put-yer-ass-on-the-line, risk-taking aspect is part of the appeal of playing in a band, at least for us Type R personalities. It's kind of like the first time I ever tried to lead an actual tune in an Irish session, after years of random noodling in jam sessions. I didn't know whether to run, sh!t, or go blind. I will never forget it, honest I won't.
Hmmm.... maybe there's not that much difference between sessions and bands, after all. It may be more a matter of perception.
Well, you've got six weeks to play that solo in front of anyone you can. Make an idiot of yourself and play it out in public, in front of crowds, as many times as you can between now and the first gig. Go busking. Play in a city park during lunch hour. You'll quickly find out where the stumble points are in the solo--keep at it and you'll find ways to soldier through them.
to beebs: Me, I just kind of look down at the fiddle under my chin and say, "Well, here we are again, old friend, just you and me." And start playing, ignoring the audience completely. That's the only way it works, for me. Every time I think about the audience, or what I might look like, I screw up.
Good point, mickray. It can be healthy to take those risks now and then, put yourself on the line. The more you do it, the more familiar you become with your abilities and perhaps how much farther they extend than you realized beforehand.
Hmm - I think skydiving sounds less scary. The worst that can happen is I play like crap and everyone ends up thinking that youre a shocking musician, give me perilous risk taking things anyday!
It puzzles me that after the infinite numbers of posts on this board about session problems and angst no one seems to have mentioned the point that in a band you get to control who's playing, you decide what's happening in advance, you can "do it better next time," you can put a link between tunes if you want, etc etc. Okay you may not have the serendipity and spontaneity of a session, but who says you can't do both things at different times?
You don't need to be a control freak to enjoy having things planned sometimes. (And if you say, "we can do all those things in our session," then to my mind, it aint a session, it's a performance.)
Yeah Tom -its really nice to play with the musicians in the band, we all get each others play and like (most times) the same thing. You dont have to put up with session wreckers..
I like playing in bands, but just the way I do now, acting as a sub in established bands 4 or 5 times a year. Sort of hired banjo. I would really call them "amateur" though - most are relatively well-paid gigs.
The trick (apart from knowing the music and being able to "fit in" to a band of course!) is to have your own equipment, not be too fussy about the set-up, and (this makes you a very desirable band member here) *have a car with plenty of space*
Playing gigs every weekend - been there, done that and is too anti-social for me.
I feel less pressure onstage with a band than I do at a session. Onstage you are with your friends, playing arrangements (loosely speaking sometimes!), to an audience that just want to enjoy themselves and don't care or know whether the tunes you're playing are clichéd, overplayed, undeprlayed, too fast, too slow, too ... whatever.
I hit the sack and you guys party all night on this thread, eh? Well done.
I think I got what Will's saying. Perhaps a more refined question would be for those in bands with local sessions to go to, but don't, what's up with that? For me, gigs are always secondary and infrequent, plus I don't view them as being the music in its native habitat so to speak. If you want to pursue the music, have no sessions near you, yet have a few folks to play with, why not just start a session?
To plee the lasses merry tunes
And mak 'em dance wi' glee
(quoth Robin Spraggon's auld gree mare)
To be honest, I don't know many people who are in an amateur band, the call for dance bands is such that anyone who is any good can find a semi-pro band to play in - most of my session colleagues play in some sort of semi-pro setup.
After nearly 40 years of playing in dance bands, the novelty still hasn't worn off. If playing every weekend and always geting paid ... makes you proffessional? I suppose so.
Yes, I have done it full time, which is not fun - the travelling, the playing to furniture - it was lucrative but soon wore thin.
I am mad on tunes and what a greater accolade can you have than someone wanting to dance to your music - and you can tell by the dancing you have the tempo right.
I also believe in putting something back and do everything I can to encourage beginners in sessions and eventually to start up their own bands, and to carry on playing past their teens.
Yes, it is a huge commitment and a mammoth logistics exercise, planning holidays around gigs and taking gigs 18 months in advance, with different people playing at each gig.
If they get up and dance, it is wokth it.
As long as you don't kid yourself you are going to make it big time, carry on enjoying it.
The session is to me the most important arena for my music. I enjoy good gigs by others, and I have played many gigs where "it came together". Sometimes though the line between session and band seems a little thinner than most of the time.
I have started an amateur band recently, consisting of 5 guys and me. Knowing these people from slightly different (but still fairly close (Oslo being a small town when it comes to accoustic traditional music (and in all other respects....))) musical circles. After playing with the lads in different sessions, I thought : "What would it sound like if we practiced a bit?". So we have had a few get togethers over a long period of time, as some of the lads are professionals, and hence travelling all the time. The goal with the band is to get a loosely practiced repertoire for one gig. And I must say, the sound of these lads (and me) in a band setting is quite pleasing. It's like a tight session that stops and starts at the same time, with slight arrangements.
I think that Will is implying that there's a fair bit of self-indulgence in a lot of these amateur bands, and if so, (he'll probably deny it now!) I'd agree, but ... so what?
one thing you can do with a band is work with your textures and orchestration a bit more than in a session. Like having the bodhran and tin whistle lay out for a section, then come back in together and lift the energy, that sort of stuff.
The Chieftains are masters of that sort of stuff....well, and masters of about everything else, too, for that matter
Funnily enough, that sort of happens in sessions anyway, when someone (Except for b******s and g*****s) doesn't know a tune, or doesn't like it or whatever. Arrangements by default. And most session sets, even though it's *not a performance* tend to end on something most people would know, which makes for a pleasing perfor ..., erm I mean, session.
I played in rock & roll bands from the age of fourteen to nineteen. My motivation was mostly that it was fun, gave my battered self-esteem a boost and brought me several long-lasting friendships. But it was also a welcome bit of income, paying for my school lunches, weekend amusements and most of my clothing. Twenty years later, I was recruited into an eclectic string band. We “practiced” once a week and played two or three gigs a month (we all had day jobs), mostly within an hour’s drive but with the occasional overnighter. We usually got paid fairly well, but we also did charity and other worthy fundraisers. Wherever we played, dancing usually broke out and that doubled the fun. After five years, we broke up when I had a disabling injury.
If you play music that you love and you have friends to play it with and there is a crowd of people who listen and dance to your music and generously show their appreciation (and you get paid), how much better does it get?
As for touring and trying to make a living at it, count me out. There was never a time I wanted to do that. Not even when I was young.
I’m finding that I appreciate amateur/semi-pro performances more and more. Not the I’ve-got-a-guitar-I-know-not-three-but-five-chords-I-can-be-a-star type, but the ones who obviously have deep respect for a tradition and have found a way to make it live and breathe.
Yeah, even though I'm ostensibly in three different "band"s, I prefer playing in sessions. And one of the drawbacks of being in a band is that it takes something I love, and makes it much more like work. Don't get me wrong, it's good to love your work. But having to practice, even when you don't feel like it, and only playing a limited repertoire takes a lot of the fun out of it...
I can't imagine wanting to be in a touring band, playing ITM. Sure, you get to play with people that you like every night, but it's gotta be like Groundhog Day (the movie), and feel like you're playing in the same damn session every night, with little variety. No wonder some of the bigger name bands I've seen look extremely bored on stage (if you look past the forced showmanship and stage banter).
HI Reverend, very good points - especially about variety and the Groundhog Day syndrome. We do about three gigs/month, sometimes more - and it works for us because they're all a bit different - a wedding, a BBQ, a concert or an acoustic do (and those are the nicest of all). When we play together a lot, we know what to expect musically, and I find our attention shifts onto the audience - by which i mean that sessions are made or broken usually by your fellow-musicians, whereas in a band you're doing similar stuff at each gig and you know what's going on musically, so it's the audiences that make the difference at each gig, and the quality of our playing is down to the audience reaction. When it goes well it's a tremendous buzz, just like it is in a session, really. I think variety is important - you put it so well when you talked about forced showmanship and stage banter - and it's great to do a mix of sessions and band gigs. But in the band, we do do it for the money - or at least, we only do free gigs if it's a pet cause or as a favour to one band member.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it, Mark. "Pet cause or as a favor". That explains my philosophy with my two "session bands".
But Will's question brings up other scenarios, like the band that travels to play at a festival at their own expense (including hotel rooms), and then gets rained out. So I'm curious as to what the motivation for that would be... Is it that they are deep in the hole from having to pay for recording a CD, and need to get out and hawk it? Is it some desire for recognition from other human beings, especially in the US, where people tend to treat performers as royalty? Is it truly just that they enjoy playing together and that they want to bring joy, happiness, and a bit of the tradition to other folks? Or is it really money that motivates? I have personally never made more than about $150 for a band gig, and it's usually a lot less. When you consider the time and effort to rehearse, travel expenses, and hassle, it's never been worth it monetarily.
So my "not band" thing is the most fun. Like I said, we don't rehearse, we don't have a set list, and we don't even really have a name. But we put on a good show, because the crowd can tell how much fun we're actually having. It's like a hand-picked session, with people that love playing together, and then you add the fact that we're in front of an audience, and so it forces us to raise our game. It can be about the most fun I ever have playing music. Personally, I would *love* to see some of the more "famous" trad bands do that. Get up on stage, and play whatever. No arrangements, no canned banter, no sets from their latest album, just a free for all session with people that love playing together. Now *that* would be entertainment!
Bren, yeah, I *do* sense some self-indulgence in the whole band scene, but then I sense it in sessions too--the people who come to a sesh so that everyone else can bask in how good they are. *snort*
But I don't mean to insinuate that self-indulgence is all bad. Just wondering what the various reasons are behind it. Some great answers above.
And bearing in mind that to truly function as a band, each member needs to support the others--it's a pretty selfless way of making the music. Bands that are just a constellation of prima donnas rarely last long and often don't sound tight....
The dance band phenomenon isn't something we do much here in the states. In most places here, there just aren't that many ceilis or trad dances. For example, our local step dance schools host ceilis about twice a year, and the adult set dance club does one or two a year. So when they ask us to play for them, we just invite the whole session along and one or two people take the lead in stringing the tunes together properly for the dances. It's a much less organized affair all around than it must be in Ireland and the UK. (I'm guessing that Boston and NYC and other major trad hotbeds here have more formal ceili bands, but here in the hinterland people are just tickled to have any live music to dance to.)
I heard from someone in one of the bands that got rained out last weekend, and was told that they probably won't bother going to that festival again--too much expense and bother. They prefer gigs closer to home, although the odd travel gig is okay--sort of a musical vacation from the day job.
Now that makes a lot of sense to me. One reason I enjoy playing music so much--in a band or in a session--is that it's so drastically different from what I do in my day job. Music is an antidote to life behind a desk, wordsmithing all day. As much as I enjoy my work, it's wonderful to switch gears and do something completely different. Being good enough at it that people pay us is just gravy.
It's pretty much de rigeur for weddings to have a ceilidh in Scotland these days. It keeps quite a few bands busy at weekends and, as it's a one-off (mostly!) for the couple, they don't mind splashing out on a big band fee.
Our kids went to an ordinary, even "rough", high school but they all did Scottish dancing as part of their PE, so there's generation of young hoodlums who think it's quite normal to strip the willow, eat some reals and dash the white sergeant while wearing a man-dress.
Still , you need a good caller as there are a lot of incomers at these dos
"...so there's generation of young hoodlums who think it's quite normal to strip the willow, eat some reals and dash the white sergeant while wearing a man-dress."
LOL. Erm, yes, we don't have such a hoodlum population here in Montana.
Bands are good crack, not recommended for those with stage fright, a bit like amateur dramatics. Why get up there if you are frightened?
For some they just crave an audience, to me that was nearly the whole buzz in drama, but with music you like to play as well, and get paid.
By the way, I admit I am going back to the 1970s, but Paddy Keenan didn't appear to be nervous. Mind you, most of the time he may not have realised where he was
Apparently I'm better at accompanying songs than at playing tunes. So I don't really thrive in session conditions. I find them too competitive. In a band you can choose who you play with regularly.
I get a kick out of performing 'on stage' and money plays no part in it. We mostly do charity gigs and have no ambition to become rich and famous. We don't go out of our way to get a gig either.
Of course the 'band' idea - drums, bass guitar - influences people. As a bass player without a band you are - nothing. As a fiddler without a band you need a certain environment like session pubs. Everybody understands 'gig' - few people understand 'session'.
I like to be in a band as long as I feel it is developing, moving, improving. Band rehearsals are also a good excuse for a social get-together. In sessions I find there is precious little time to talk.
I was just thinking that the board had been boring lately, and you came in with this most delightful thread.
I do not remember why I got into a band, but I do know why I like being in one. In a band, you can do what you wish, and things can be a little more arranged, and 'tighter' if you will, you get to know each other better, and can play off each other. As someone who likes to harmonize more than sing melody, being in a band with stronger singers is a great place for me to be. And also, a band is a great outlet for someone like me who likes to dabble in different instruments.
I love sessions, but sometimes find that a few of the people engaged in them take them too seriously, and have very fixed ideas of what a session should be, which dampens the fun. I find there is too much emphasis sometimes on the fastest and flashiest playing at the expense of inclusiveness. If there is singing, it is often solo, of the 'hush everyone, and respect the artist at work' variety, which can be wonderful, but hardly brings everyone in on the fun.
I also think that there is a whole Irish American tradition of joining in singing that is generally frowned upon by the session crowds, but which I very much enjoy. Most of the friends I have who grew up in more ethnically influenced households describe singing old favorites around a piano, or instruments playing along with the singing, so this tradition from what I can see is at least as old and valid in America as is the session tradition.
Since the general public that hires bands in the US to play Irish music often prefers the old songs, this is a perfect fit for myself and those in the band with me. We don't earn enough to cover expenses, and generally do only about 10 gigs per year which keeps things fresh. But we love playing to, and connecting with, the audiences.
So to me, being in a band in addition to playing in sessions brings me more musical satisfaction than I would derive from sessions alone. To each his own, but for me, I choose both!
Great posts kuec and Al. Yep, singers can thrive in bands, and bands thrive with good singers. It's a good symbiosis and one of the aspects of playing in a band I enjoy, too.
My experience with bands and sessions has been different than what I'm hearing here, though. Our session is very close knit--we've become good friends, and there's always plenty of time for talk and crack. The bands I've been in were more serious, business-like, rehearse, gig, and go home. I suppose it just depends on the people involved and their ideas of fun. A band or a session can be social and fun, or competitive and work-ish. Glad to hear that many people don't take the band stuff too seriously, while still doing their level best with the music.
Yep, I got invited into one such an amateur band once. I bust a boiler to learn all their tunes for the (nonpaying) gig, attended every rehearsal, played the gig. People danced and had a good time (although we weren't perfect). After which I thought we'd sit on the hay bales around the fire for some tunes, I was mad for them (I get that way sometimes, a bit too obsessive and apparently way over the top), but admittedly it was, by the time we finished, late, and everyone packed up and left except me. I asked what was up and was told that was it till the next gig. The next year they invited me again, said I'd know all the tunes, but I couldn't be bothered.
That certainly happens with dance bands, where it might be 1am or later by the time you finish, then you've got to pack up and may have a couple of hours to drive home. But it seems a shame if you're just playing for the crack, and presumably not too far from home. I'd imagined they'd be a laid-back party crowd in the Alice.
I presume your bandmates weren't into sessioning? I know some great musicians who never go to sessions. Or perhaps they were already stretching their partners' forebearance with this "band" hobby and d. idn't want to push their luck
... me then being a newby in town and looking for people to play with and they'd all been playing together for 16+ years. As I say, I sometimes am way over the top, tooooo bluudy serious fer words. So Bren the answer is no to the sessioning. The thriving folk club from the 70-80's only functions for the festival (every second year near here) and Bloodwood disbanded not long before I arrived to stay and the Bloodwood fiddleplayer left town (although he flies in for gigs at Glenn Helen, sometimes, I hear tell. Some fantastic musos around the town (don't get me wrong) ... but not interested in playing Irish trad (with me).
I'm glad to see this thread is still up, since I've been thinking of Will's question most of the day.
(First off, Will, a very elegant explanation of the lure of the good fight -- I'm still doing it after 32 years, so, yeah, all of that. and more. we should exchange professional emails and continue the discussion in a less public venue)
Back to the question at hand. My band is a non-profit and it's a duplicate of the session it comes from -- just a pared down version. We never know who's going to show up, so it's a different band every gig, sort of like the session is a different session every meeting. So it's just one more place to share with old friends.
I find that I play better when I play a gig than when I play during sessions. I have more oomph, I play better faster and I surprise myself in a good way sometimes, something I can't say in a session, where I occasionally feel like an idiot and, with some sessions, end up sitting out a lot because I don't know the tunes. With a gig, I know all the tunes.
My daughter's harp teacher was explaining to her that her heartrate is faster than an adult's, so playing something "slow" to her ear is a lot faster than an adult playing slowly. Apparently judging music speed is connected to heart rate. So when I'm on stage, my heart rate is faster, and I can play faster or play better faster.
And, as someone said, there's access to restricted areas, no session etiquette to worry about and even money!
Obviously, these are not recordings of the last time I saw him, but they are free downloads from his web site so I thought I'd offer them up for your iPods
Come to think of it, since our band "practices" pretty much every week to prepare for less than one gig per month, I guess it could probably be considered to be as much of a kitchen party or house session as a band!
Oh no ... not that word again ...
Its suddenly become the word of the week and open to all sorts of unintended inferences. Yikes!
Hey, how could anyone begrudge a group of people forming a band or playing together because they like to play together and enjoy their friendship and company.
The Phantom is pushin' Buttons, I think .
No... I'm making a valid point... you're getting defensive.
What is a sessions? A session is whatever the people starting it want it to be. What is a closed session? That's a session where people restrict who can participate.
When I read the descriptions in the thread above about how people who have bands have regular rehearsals and what they do at them -- it sounds a lot like a session. The fact that the session (rehearsal) is limited to a certain group of people makes it sound like a closed session.
There was a local group who got together to play tunes in their home and later in a cafe and called themselves a "band" and had a name and such... and they referred to their weekly get-togethers as "rehearsals." They would make arrangements and practice them at their rehearsals. Every now and then they would get a gig, but mostly they just "rehearsed." When I described to one of them what a closed session was she declared that their weekly rehearsals sounded like what a closed session would be. That's what they referred to them as after that... so I'm told.
You folks seem to think there's something wrong with a closed session, but I don't. But I do think that's why you get defensive if I use the term. What's wrong with a closed session?
bb writes: "Jack - if thats the case then you have been having a closed session for near 20 years. Talk about snobbish!"
~~~
No... we don't rehearse... we only play either together or as individuals in public open sessions. Every now and then we'll get together before a high profile gig and rehearse... but that's very rare. I can hardly see how that might be considered "snobbish."
there is nothing wrong with a closed session, we have house sessions some time. However - and this is the point Jack - the Band I'm in does rehersals every week for *gigs* not for a session. So therefore it is a band rehersal and not a closed session. Thats what I'm getting at. Plus - you'd have to be pretty crap indeed to have to practise weekly for a closed session...no?
I was ony pointing out that if you call a rehersal a closed session - then thats what you are doing to. Also - if we'd all been in a band for 20 years then I'm sure we wouldnt have to practise as much.
Oh - and I assure you, our rehersals are nothing like a session. Unless you count playing the same sets over and over and over again with different arrangments a session. Not like one Ive ever been to.
I don't rehearse with the bands I "drop into" at all. Usually when someone can't make it for some reason.
It's always short notice and the ceilidh one plays so many gigs, at least two a week, they don't need to rehearse much
They have the arrangements already and they just tell me the tunes, or sometimes not, and I go with the flow, or at least try to look like I know what I'm doing.
Suits me down to the ground.
Every time I go with them I've whittled away the group of tunes I don't know a bit more.
I realise that is the opposite of Will's topic but I know friends in "bands" that rehearse and hardly ever play gigs and I don't think I'd enjoy that so much.
So many people have had bad experiences with 'closed sessions,' especially when those events are often held in public, billed as sessions, but then treat newcomers like unwelcome interlopers. For me, the term 'closed session' feels like an oxymoron, since 'session' implies openness and welcoming, and 'closed' slams the door in my face. I think that, despite the fact that the originators of a session get to set the tone for the session, when you call something a 'session' you have an obligation to be inclusive, to some extent at least.
I generally refer to a gathering held in someone's home as a house session or kitchen party--and of course, since it is their home, they can invite who they want.
So Button, perhaps the term you used has some 'baggage' attached, which is where the prickly replies came from.
Yea, I don't understand why the "prickly" replies are coming in, Al. The first time I mentioned the term "closed session" was in response to bb and Tom comparing rehearsals to sessions. I simply asked the question. Why I suddenly became the representative of a closed session and target for resentment is a mystery to me.
Then the next time I mentioned it was after you said, "Come to think of it, since our band "practices" pretty much every week to prepare for less than one gig per month, I guess it could probably be considered to be as much of a kitchen party or house session as a band!" Apparently when I echoed your characterization of your rehearsal as a session and commented that it sounded like you were describing a closed session it mean I was a snob according to bb.
It might help if people followed the thread by responding to what people are actually saying rather than making assumptions and then attacking people based on that.
Jack - when I said you were snobbish - it was meant in a jokey kind of way...I'm sorry it didnt come across like that...but then again it always happens on boards like this. Sorry again.
Hmmm. As bb has described above, I would think a closed session would function as a session, while a band rehearsal would function as a band rehearsal.
I can imagine cases where the distinction would get blurry, but I can still see why someone might get prickly when you make a one-liner comment (with no further explanation) suggesting that their band rehearsal sounds more like a closed session.
I guess I just don't understand the compulsion to pin ill-fitting alleged synonyms to things....
A band rehearsal and a closed session are two different things. That's why we refer to them by different terms.
But Will, that's according to your parameters of what constitutes a "session." But a session is whatever the people starting it want it to be. If it's a closed session their own parameters can even be more specific. If the session they're having is to play the music in tight arrangements... so be it.
We have already argued in this forum in great detail about what we believe sessions are or aren't. I think it's clear that there is no international standard that people must comply with or their session privileges will be revoked and they will be prohibited from calling what they're doing a "session."
A session where the music is played in tight arrangements might not be your idea of a good session, but it doesn't disqualify the participants from holding it either in public or privately.
What Al was describing his rehearsals to be sounded very much like a session, and he even said so. bb did say that the rehearsal prevented the presents os "session wreckers." I think if you're having an open session it would be boring to participate in if the people who started it are using it primarily as a rehearsal, so having it as a closed session would be preferable.
Thanks bb... I'm glad you were just funnin when you called me a snob. There's no smileys included so it was hard for my slag-detector to kick in. Had I known I would have tried to come up with what I would hope to be clever repartee instead.
Heh, so if Dervish takes money to get up on stage and play nothing but the carefully arranged and rehearsed sets from their latest album in front of an audience, but they choose to call it a session, then it's a session?
Yeah, people can use words any way they want, but not if they hope to be understood.....
Sure, a band can sit in a pub and play arranged sets from their cd or gig list and not let anyone else sit in, and call it a "session," but I suspect most people here would find the usage confusing.
Careful, Will, you're traipsing awfully close to your performance quagmire.
Come on now, Will, There's no confusion there. I don't think anyone here was considering their rehearsal to be a stage performance in anyway similar to a Dervish show, or a performance of any kind really. Go back and read what Al and bb said and if you can point out where they described what they're doing as anything resembling a Dervish performance I'd like to see it.
If there's no confusion, then why did you say that someone's band rehearsal sounds like a "closed session"?
Pinning a label where it doesn't belong is what creates confusion. So why not just call it a band rehearsal? Or let the people in the band call it what they want, which is what you say sessioneers should be allowed to do.
Band rehearsal: arrange sets and songs, figure out who plays what and how, and then practice all that, over and over so you'll be tight for an upcoming gig or studio recording.
Session: play tunes, sing an occasional song. Rarely if ever repeat a tune on a given night ("party foul" ). Not in preparation for anything.
LOL, the "performance quagmire" wasn't mine alone.
Jack, you were the one insisting that sessions were performances, and then apparently saw the light and later posted that sessions weren't performances but "celebrations."
Will writes: "Pinning a label where it doesn't belong is what creates confusion. So why not just call it a band rehearsal?"
~~~
I'm not confused about anything that was said in this thread. People were calling it a rehearsal and comparing it to sessions. All I did was make the comment that it sounds like a "closed session." This was based on their descriptions of their rehearsals. I'm not attempting to pass any laws or make any decrees.
========
Will attempts to reopen his can of worms saying, "Jack, you were the one insisting that sessions were performances, and then apparently saw the light and later posted that sessions weren't performances but "celebrations.""
~~~
On the thread I started on that topic the title said: "Sessions ARE public performances?" Notice the question mark? (go back to the original thread [below] and you'll see.) My premise was and still is that punters probably perceive sessions being held in public places as performances regardless of what we think we're doing. I personally see sessions as a celebration of Irish music.
Anyone who doesn't know the difference between a closed session and a band rehearsal should go to bb's house on a Wednesday afternoon. Both kinds of get-together happen in bb's house, but I've been in the next room when they've been rehearsing on the Wed afternoon (most often because I got too p*ssed to drive home the previous night at the open pub session, so had to kip on the sofa and then nurse a hangover the next day) and you can't listen to a rehearsal like you can a session. They play the same sets over and over again, experimenting with arrangements and practising the changes between tunes. It's really tedious and the only way I have to deal with it is by shouting through the odd bitchy comment, only I have to be careful to keep a low enough profile that I don't annoy them too much, otherwise I might not be allowed to stay the following week. Closed sessions at her place are very different. I'm usually invited unless bb's being a real snob and wants to shut me out just because the tunes I play aren't trendy enough for her, or unless I'm abroad, where I can be as horrible about her as I like and she can't get her revenge by throwing crockery at me across the room like she did last time.
Mark, I never said bb's rehearsal was a closed session, I just posed the question first to bb.
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Coming a bit late to this one, but I did read it!
It puzzles me that after the infinite numbers of posts on this board about session problems and angst no one seems to have mentioned the point that in a band you get to control who's playing, you decide what's happening in advance, you can "do it better next time," you can put a link between tunes if you want, etc etc. Okay you may not have the serendipity and spontaneity of a session, but who says you can't do both things at different times?
You don't need to be a control freak to enjoy having things planned sometimes. (And if you say, "we can do all those things in our session," then to my mind, it aint a session, it's a performance.)
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by TomB-R
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yeah Tom -its really nice to play with the musicians in the band, we all get each others play and like (most times) the same thing. You dont have to put up with session wreckers..
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
So a "band" is basically a closed session?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
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Here's where I said something "sounded" like a closed session:
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Come to think of it, since our band "practices" pretty much every week to prepare for less than one gig per month, I guess it could probably be considered to be as much of a kitchen party or house session as a band!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by AlBrown
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Sounds like a closed session to me.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Jack - if thats the case then you have been having a closed session for near 20 years. Talk about snobbish!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
---------
Now I understand bb said she was just funnin in this post, but what I don't understand is why posing the question pigeonholes me as the representative voice of a closed session and makes everything I say translate as advocating or declaring things are "closed sessions" when it's not what I was doing. This confounds and amazes me and makes me wonder why I bother to contribute to a discussion board where I get attacked for saying things I never said.
I dont really like the term closed session -so I'm going to call it a house session instead.
All I meant by the comment its good to have people in the band who like youre kind of music - is exactly that - its good to have people in the band who like my kind of music and vise versa. Its not a closed session - I dont know what other bands are like at rehersal - but I'll tell you, its more like homework that fun (which is what a session is)
All I was trying to say is that, if you listened to the band 'practices' that we hold, you would probably hear an even mix of woodshedding new songs and tunes, played repeatedly, but also quite a few tunes and songs we have in our repetoire that we are playing for the sheer fun of it, not because they need work. Some bands may work harder at it, we fortunately all get along well, are doing what we do for the love of it more than anything else, and just enjoy playing and singing.
While I do not care for the term 'closed session' (for the reasons I mentioned above), I certainly can see why, given my description of our practices, PB thought it fit the bill.
Although, like I said, at other times we sound like the events Dow describes (which I would also hate to listen to while hung over, sometimes it is better not to know how the sausages are made).
The gatherings we call 'band practices' are never one thing and the other at the same time, but sometimes one thing, and sometimes the other.
Who says you have to call it anything? It's still a bunch of musicians getting together to play music and have a good time. That's a session just by the sake of what happens regardless of any label. The fact that the participants are restricted means it's closed just by the sake of what's happening. Maybe it doesn't include attributes that people commonly associate with "sessions," but who cares whether you call it a rehearsal or a session as long as you enjoy it.
because the thread has drifted off into yet another pointless, semantic debate..
How about this: performing is an addiction. "Hi, my name is gw and I'm a performer."
"I like being in a band because I like being on stage. I like rehearsing because working out the kinks make for a better on-stage experience. And while I prefer getting compensated for my efforts, I can (because I have a reasonably lucrative day job) go out of pocket for the occasional gig if it has the likelihood of being a good time. Most (but not all) of my band mates are of a similar persuasion. If they all were we would play a lot more than 25 gigs a year."
"And... because I play in a band with my wife, when we leave town for gigs we get to stay in a motel so it's kind of like a cheap weekend away. Ooh la la! Win win!"
When you go on a mini tour with your band for a few days it's a rare chance to go feral in a group of adults - I have to say the most bizarre / wonderful / memorable experiences have happened to me on tours - I dare say we've even frightened a few people but it's a real blast. That's why I do it.
Yes, "party" does describe it better than "closed session". But bb, how would you distinguish our session parties from ones where we just get wasted and listen to 80's music? Maybe "tunes party" would best describe it.
"mostly people in their 50s who harbor no fantasies about being the next Irish superband"
~ still a touch of fantasy is fun.
I figure if you want to perform ~ live it up so everyone feels
Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Many of my friends who play this music have formed bands in recent years. They rarely or only occasionally get paying gigs--mostly they seem to lose money traveling great distances to play at small festivals or as filler on off nights at pubs.
When they do get paid, it hardly ever covers their gas and lodging costs. And I'm amazed at how much work and time they put into arranging sets, rehearsing, researching and buying sound systems, schlepping and setting up equipment for each gig, doing sound checks, traveling, promoting themselves to venues, etc. Some of them have also spent oodles of money and time recording cds and then spend even more time and money marketing and trying to sell them.
I know a couple of bands that spent a lot of time and money getting to a festival last weekend only to get rained out. So they didn't even get to perform.
To me, this all looks like a lot of trouble, inconvenience, and cost, with very little in return. So I'm curious what the attraction is for the people who do this. I've talked with some of these friends about it--these are mostly people in their 50s who harbor no fantasies about being the next Irish superband. They gave the following answers:
- It's something fun to do now that I'm retired from my day job.
- I get a buzz from performing in front of an audience.
- It compels me to practice more, so I'm a better musician for it.
- The overall ensemble is musically better and more rewarding than my local session, which is diluted by people less serious about or new to the music.
Those are good reasons, but they still wouldn't be enough to persuade me to be in a touring band. I did that when I was in my late teens and twenties--maybe I just got it out of my system. (Also, our band--a bluegrass quintet--actually made a living at it.)
I get most of those utils just by playing in sessions, without any of the hassles of being in a working band. That said, a few of my session mates and I function as a band of sorts, playing the occasional wedding or charity function. We tend to structure the gigs more like sessions, unless the client really wants a performance. And we rarely--hardly ever--travel out of town for gigs. So when we get paid, we do make a profit. (And so far, we don't use a sound system--not much work involved in setting up, etc.) In short, we turn down gigs that are more trouble than they're worth. So we don't do a lot of gigs.
My cynical side wonders if forming a band is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to our celebrity culture. We're flooded with images of musicians as performers, entertainers. Making music is popularly thought of as something that professionals do, no longer a layperson's hobby. So if you play music at all, there's an expectation (perhaps even among the amateur musicians themselves) that you should perform. Even if it's a losing proposition and ends up being more work than fun.
But maybe that is some people's idea of fun. Nothing wrong with that.
So I'd like to hear from you amateur musicians who enjoy playing in a band--why do you do it? What do you get out of it (that a session doesn't give you)? If you're in a band at the moment, are you enjoying it, or is it more work than it's worth?
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
LOL - you sir have the perspective of past experience and age on your side. I too chased that neon rainbow for 17 years of my young life in all sorts of bands - but I would loath to be in a band now. However, I would be amazed if anyone agreed with "celebrity status" as a motivating factor especially in a trad band. Time to check you cynical side CPT - it's shifting into overdrive.
I have spent oodles of money on golf - traveling distances play and buying more gear - I still stink. But I enjoy it tremendously. I would wager a person in their 40s or 50s forming a trad band is essentially doing the same thing. It's fun! (at least for them)
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
They may well be people who fantasised about playing in bands when they were young, and only got the chance decades down the line - but are thereby Living The Dream, reconnecting with their younger selves, and cheerfully indifferent to the absurdities you mention.
You did it early, got it out of your system, and moved on!
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I played in a band several years back in Colorado. We had a weekly gig and once or twice a month some better paying gigs —essentially a part-time band.
From my own perspective, playing with a small group of folks in a more focused venue, paid or not, is much more fun and fulfilling than a session atmosphere. There are sessions that are more focused and interactive, but all too often that is not the case.
I personally don't care much for all that celebrity stuff either. I like to hear good bands play, but the whole scene with international stardom has become a bit over played over the years.
Stephen
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by StephenR
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
That's how it gets started... All the bands I ever got roped into or gave birth to were from one need ~ live music for dance... It was a kick, and yes, we did things out of pocket sometimes, and there was travel, and we did charity events, and we threw parties and held other events. No, even if I got all that money back with interest, and it would be a tidy sum, I wouldn't undo a second of it, even the hassles that sometimes came from lost sleep and other hassles, a kind of general rattiness that can come over you ~ and even some of the assholes we had to deal with ~ no, we never made the status of "The Beatles" or "The Stones" or "Planxty" or "The Bothy Band" or ~ any endless number of different flash groupings ~ it was a kick, great fun, and as said, we weren't looking for stardom, though there were some strange folk that waved that promise in our faces ~ we just wanted live music and dance, and loved doing it, and all the sweat and hardship and heartache that came with it... Let me as one of our regulars, see if it's a concensus ~ one moment ~
YES!!!
, sorry, let me take the glasses off ~ 
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Hey, we got paid, we weren't amateurs!!!
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
For me, it is an opportunity to spend my free time (when I am not working at my day job at a hospital) doing one of the few things in life which I truly and genuinely enjoy doing. I feel more alive, alert, and aware when I am playing music. I have been playing music for approximately forty years now and I would like to spend as much of my free time as possible playing music for the rest of my life.
I have done the traveling musician thing and I have talked to people who used to be professional musicians. I decided that it would be better for me to continue to work my day job and indulge myself playing music in my free time when I wasn't working at my job.
I like my job at a hospital and look forward to going to work because I feel as if I am doing something useful by helping to take care of sick people.
I am lucky enough to live in a place where there is a variety of situations (such as jam sessions of various types) where I can indulge myself by playing music. I have been sitting in and playing one instrument or the other at various local jam sessions since 1990 and I still enjoy it.
For the past five years, I have been playing my acoustic bass fiddle with a mandolin and guitar group. I enjoy making music with these people and it has really helped improve my bass playing also.
From 1996-1998, I played piano with a band which was started by some of the musicians at the local Irish Session. We played Irish and Scottish music and I did enjoy performing with them. We played regularly and I think we were properly reimbursed for our performing.
This is my answer to your questions, Will CPT. Is it good enough for you?
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I have a couple of friends who are great fiddlers and inventive musicians and we like to play a wide range of tunes in a style that would be mostly frowned upon at any session (lots of chords and harmonies). And sometimes after spending an evening getting an arrangement just right we get the notion that we should try it out in front of a few people. We don't travel far though - down to a farmer's market or something similar. Anyway, it's all purely for fun, but it's fun to share it too.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by airport
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Well, I am in a couple of bands, as you know, Will.
One of them is mostly like your session-band... Formed mostly so that we could say "yes" when someone came up to us at a session and asked if we could play for their wedding (which tend to be fairly good paying gigs, relatively speaking). We have a general set list of things that we have worked up that don't require much practice. Although, we haven't had any gigs in almost a year.
The other band is really the brainchild of a fiddler friend of mine, who is also a singer (sean nós, as well as more modern and fun songs), and he wanted an avenue for arranging and showcasing the songs, in a way that you can't (and shouldn't) really do in sessions.
So my reasons for being in the band are really to help push myself to get better, and have some fun with my friends along the way.
I lied, I also have a third "band", that we don't call a band, and we don't rehearse, and we don't have a set list. But they are some of my absolute favorite people to play with, and we do it for the craic, because it's often some of the best music. That band doesn't even have a set name (we choose a new name for each gig - and the only caveat is that it has to have the word "back" in name somewhere - long story...) That band just picks up the odd gig here and there, and we treat it like a session.
And I think you're right, at least a bit, about the star-struck culture we grew up in. It's still hard not to treat talented performers like stars (much to their chagrin, most of the time in ITM).
But for me, there's another motivation. I am a traditionalist when it comes to this music. I generally despise the plastic paddy, green beer, Wild Rover, renaissance-sounding sh*te that passes for "Irish" in the US. So I will go out of my way, many times at my own expense, to bring some real traditional music to people, with the hopes that it might open their eyes to how ridiculous most of the crap they consider to be "real Irish" actually is.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"The overall ensemble is musically better and more rewarding than my local session, which is diluted by people less serious about or new to the music." Sounds about right to me, in theory anyway.
I also enjoy the challenge of designing a show--face it, that's what it is--trying to choose the right sets of tunes for the occasion, get the overall pacing right, throw in some novelties, etc. You know, all the "show-biz" stuff that is not appropriate at sessions.
Bands and sessions both have their respective good points, I think. I'm always hoping for the best of both worlds.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"Wild Rover, renaissance sounding sh!te"
That just reminded me of my one and only ren-faire gig nearly 16 years ago. We had finished up our set of the aforementioned plastic paddy tunes and retired to the large room behind the stage to put our gear away. Much to our amazement and delight there were rows of food baskets, bottles of beer, fine whiskeys, freshly baked bread, cookies, sausages - treats of every sort. We spent the next 15 minutes feasting like savages. How nice, we all thought, that the faire organizers would set out such a spread for the musicians.
As I was about to open a nice bottle of Bushmills Blackbush, we heard the voice over the PA out front "...and now it's time for the raffle of fine whiskeys and food baskets!"
"Oh Jaysus" said our Belfast born band leader "Let's get the f*** outa here!"
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
The dudes in our band are our core session players. We don't travel, we do gigs locally, are absurdly choosy, and have a great time. I do some solo gigs too. Yeah, I think it's a little ego, it satisfies something artistically in me, maybe. The money's great, oh wow, yeah. [/sarcasm] It's certainly not the entourage, those people eat me out of house and home, the lazy sycophants...and the paparazzi? Don't get me started. [/even more]
At sessions I'm so focused on being inclusive. Performing is an outlet artistically where I can be a selfish musical bast*rd. Well, I must not be that selfish, because I don't do a lot of it.
I love sessions, don't get me wrong. You're sharing the love for the music with all sorts of folks, and that's wonderful, and what it's all about. Perhaps I just want the music all to myself every once in a while. A little personal time, a nice quiet, romantic evening with the music and an audience? What a selfish...
Ultimately, there's a real joy from playing with the same folks often enough where you're just so tight with everything you already know and are eager to learn new tunes together. Perhaps bands help people create those groups of like-minded folks when it can't be done in the session environment.
Best of both worlds? A session with a long-lasting, tight-knit core with a receptive audience you don't have to perform for.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I've been wondering about this for a while too, and I tend to agree with Will that the lure of celebrity has something to do with it. There's a Safety in Numbers factor as well.
Otherwise, why would some of these groups carry on when they clearly don't have the musical /performance skills to make a living at it?
Plus I think that people with little knowledge of the music industry (or maybe music in general) believe that "Music" happens in concert venues with a paying audience, because that's what they've been led to think. But that's what happens when you watch too much television.
Maybe we all go through a stage where we don't have enough sense to say "no" to our fantasy of making it big, and we aren't honest enough to recognize that we have a lot to learn musically.
On the other hand, this is one of those "experience comes from bad judgement" things (if you're lucky), where being in a band forces you to work your a$$ off to get better and deliver the goods. Plus it's a great way to meet <insert desired gender and partner specificationshere>.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Gzeg
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Great point by the Reverend.
Won't you all please help the struggle against Plastic Paddyism? Give what you can, thank you.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"Performing is an outlet artistically..."
For me, I think it's probably more "autistically."
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Celebrity status definitely has nothing to do with my having maintained a band for 20 years now. We are profitable with our gigs, especially after having time to fine-tune the business end of things, but the motivation is in the pleasure of playing music. Since no one in our current band has stars in their eyes having a band name as opposed to going under our own names seems easier.
But if I were to take Will's thought a step further... it has always amused me how, as Americans, we tend to jump from beginner to being in a band prematurely. In Ireland you would never consider such a thing I imagine since the tradition doesn't include bands in the same way. You might join a Ceili band after you acquired a certain level of playing, but a band in the sense of a professional band is out of context with the tradition... at least according to my understanding anyway.
I admit that I'm guilty of making this leap, but I do realize it now after becoming more familiar with the tradition. At this point our "band" is more about just three people in the local session who have organized things so we can play for weddings, parties, festivals, concerts, etc., or whatever comes down the pike. The session is where we play the music for enjoyment and get a chance to learn and play new tunes with a variety of folks. Other than that the band isn't any big deal really.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Honestly? It's the feeling you get from being on stage, and knowing that your hard work has paid off. It feels amazing, even just for 2 minutes, knowing that those people took the time to listen to you play (especially without complaining
)
The money actually doesn't matter at all. I've spent the last 3 years playing in a (very!) larger group where we can't charge anyone. We can only get donations. And even then, since we're a charity it benefits the whole group so no one gets money individually. When I do occasionally get a tenner or whatever, it'll only go on a cd or even reharing my bow, so nothing life changing, just useful!
But saying that, I still love playing some tunes with my friends whether there's anyone watching or not. I just love to play!
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by creathana
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Are we talking about bands that play jigs, reels, hornpipes etc? At festivals? In the USA? All the festivals I see have the rocknroll/yell like a pirate bands coupled with violinists posing as fiddlers etc.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
For me, the draw is that I like dance music and dancing. So I play with a dance band. We also do some gigs just for the listening public, small venues mostly, and they are also fun. A few bob in the pocket is nice, too, but hardly the only motive.
It is all about sharing the music, IMHO. Dancers, listeners, fellow musicians, whatever - sharing a good music with others is community of the highest order.
I only wish I had the words to express it better.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Rook
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Hahahaha... indeed MH... they seem to get all those gigs. These are the bands I find most boring of all. They take up playing trad music and barely get their toes wet before deciding to turn it into a bad garage-band type Keltic Rock nightmare vanity band and start playing as if they've mastered Irish music. Then they convince clueless promoters into buying their crap. I can't tell you how many times I've overheard someone talking about one of these bands as if they were some sort of great Irish trad band. It helps when your audience doesn't know the difference I guess.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Well... I think that playing in a band is a great experience! And I honestly think every muscian should experience it! Because you get to work together with other musicians at arranging and performing!
And also about you're celebrity culture comment... I don't give 'celebrities' the time of day now! I mean the word Celebrity has lost all meaning!
Nahh I think most trad. or folk bands these days only form bands and perform because they enjoy it and want to share their music!
Everyone has to start somewhere and like myself (although I'm only a teen) usually start in a band who arn't paid that much and play in small venues and what have ya! But at the end of the day! It's just great fun and a great way to meet other people intrested in the same thing as you!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by ajh92
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Along the lines of what Reverend posted....maybe they JUST HAVE FUN!!!
And yes, Merry Highlander, there are quite a few US festivals that showcase traditional music...unsure where you reside, but in the northeast / mid-atlantic areas and at the Milwaukee Fesival, too, you'll find brilliant "ITM," not just showbands and celtic rock bands.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Ceolagusrince
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Lots of good insights here--thanks for sharing.
But I see a few bones to pick, too.
I'm all for "sharing the music," and playing for dancers and being a positive influence, through music, in your community. Those are great reasons to play music.
But to me, that's what our *session* does. We don't need to be a band to do that. And a session (as much a Peyton Place as those can be) doesn't come with half the hassles as does a working band.
Don't get me wrong--I really do enjoy doing occasional gigs with my session mates as a "band." But it's mostly the sort of informal stuff several people cited above, and as Reverend says, a response to people who hear our session and ask us to play for a wedding or fundraiser. (Even our band name--"Special Session"--downplays our status as a band. We're more of a moveable session. Plus we get the double entendre, living in a state capital, of special legislative session, as though called in political emergency.)
I find ajh92's comment telling: "Everyone has to start somewhere....usually start in a band...."
That's exactly the sort of mindset that got me wondering about all this. ***Why*** a band? Why not start by going to sessions for 10 years and really getting grounded in this music?
As Phantom Button says, some people are a bit presumptuous, forming a band as soon as they have three tunes under their belts. Others just seem uninterested or even antagonistic to sessions in general, and find a band situation suits them better. Why? Is it a desire to be the center of attention? Or at least recognized as a performer? Or am I just jealous?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
In our case the answer as to why we do it is easy: We get to play for dancers. A nice change of pace from the weekly session, and good discipline. We only play about four dances a year, and the halls provide the sound systems. Sometimes we make enough to pay for gas, but it's always great fun, in a different sort of way than the session.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by alec b
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I have a feeling that nobody's explanation will answer your question, because you're asking people to justify something you find boring or silly or a waste of time. It's not going to happen.
I play in an amateur band because I like it. I like to go to gigs and play this incredible music for people who don't know anything about it. And, as someone pointed out, there's safety in numbers, so any screwups aren't heard and aren't understood even if they are heard.
Can I explain it so you'll understand? No.
I don't "get" sports. I played sports in school and felt it was a waste of time. I don't understand why anybody would waste three seconds watching a sporting event on television, listen to it on the radio or spend $1 driving somewhere -- anywhere -- to watch a game in person. I feel the same way about beer. I hate the taste of it and just don't see the attraction.
Will you be able to convince me of the errors of my ways? Can any explanation of why sports is worth life itself, or the wonder of a great glass of Guinness, get me to understand? Nope. I find sports tedious at best and beer overrated.
So I doubt any of us who enjoy this will be able to answer your question to any degree that will change your mind.
I think you should just chalk it up to "those odd things people do that I don't" and let it go at that.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Ceolagusrince, I understand that some people find being in a band to be fun. But why? Especially given all the downsides (often losing money instead of making a profit, playing places with horrible acoustics, or to hostile or indifferent audiences, outdoors in bad weather, carting heavy gear around, and on and on).
Let me rephrase it. Many of the people I know who play in amateur bands complain about the conditions they perform under, the unprofitability, the scheduling, the hours of rehearsing, and the hassles and disappointments of playing through a sound system. But they keep doing it. What is it that so offsets these hassles that makes it all worth while, given that, unlike most other work, they are not making money (and instead are losing money) and they don't *have* to perform (that is, they could still share their music in less overwrought ways, such as simply playing sessions).
Just curious. And glad to see some good answers so far in this thread. Keep 'em coming.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
LOL, Mandogal, I do "get it," having played in bands for many years. I'm just wondering why other people do it. I had my own reasons at the time, and they included not realizing that other options--such as sessions--were available for playing and sharing music.
But I also earned a living playing in bands. When the outgo exceeds the income, it becomes harder for me to justify treating a band like a job (with mandatory rehearsals and so on).
Someone above mentioned the enjoyment of working up songs and ensemble arrangements, and I really do understand that. One band of my friends exists precisely for that reason. It's their primary artistic outlet, and they want the sort of control a band affords over how they present the music. Grand. I get it.
Any other good reasons?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
No I'm not actually saying that you HAVE to start in a band!
Our band is an organised Feis band! So we all go in for the experience! It's for young people to experience working together... we don't make CDs or anything. It's just all about experience and I find it improves my playing!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by ajh92
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Well, if the people you're referring to do it and complain about it, then they do it specifically to have something to complain about, of course. Sort of like some people enjoy poor health, if you get my drift.
I think you're poking at people to see how they jump -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We aim to amuse, after all.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
What's the attraction? Wine, women, fame, the buzz....mind you we always got paid, even by the women.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
You must understand Will that where both me and ajh92 live there isn't a vast number of sessions to go to. Without travelling for an hour I personally can't get to one. Therefore the "group" that I am in (not band, that isn't the right word as such), provides a chance to play with others. Not just learners, people of varying school age, who gradually learn from those around them. So possibly, in this sense the "experience" and starting in a band could be counted as a possible reason
There is still of course the enjoyment factor as that is why we all do it! We're not forced, and we don't get any money from it.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by creathana
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
No, really, I'm not poking at people or trying to stir the pot.
I went to a festival last weekend, and most of the people I used to session with were off playing on stage. When they finished, they avoided the sessions. So it seems they're forgoing sessions in favor of playing in a band. Made me wonder why, given that they complain about all the work, while a perfectly decent outlet for music (sessions) remains available to them.
And not just forgoing the festival sessions but their own local sessions during the year. All their time and energy available for music goes into the band...nothing left for sessioning.
I've seen this same thing happen elsewhere, among other people, and within other genres of music. Just wondering why.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
creantha, Will probably understands very well, about sessions in remote areas.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16672/
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Creathana, I was in the same spot once--hundreds of miles from the nearest Irish music or sessions. I live in Montana, USA.
So I started a session, not a band. It didn't take long for some of the participants to declare that we needed to be a band, too. And we did that--way before any of us was ready to play this music well, certainly in front of an audience. It was laughable. I soon quit the band and put my energy back into holding the session together. That proved to be enough work in itself, but was still far less time consuming than all the band rehearsals and travel to gigs, etc.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Our groups been over to Montana a couple of times, might have seen you maybe! But to be honest, a majority in the group play what they are given. They wouldn't go home, listen to a cd and learn some new tunes off of it. They just do what they have to do whilst in the group, however they do still seem to enjoy. Now I just have to hope and pray that no one else in the group is lurking.....
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by creathana
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Actually, Will, I think your question cuts into the fiber of the difference between coming to the music inside of the culture or removed. If you learn a few guitar riffs or show ability on rock band instruments you're recruited into a rock band and begin your journey on the roulette wheel of pop-culture stardom. This gets confused with the pursuit of Irish music when you live outside the tradition and start learning tunes. The presumption often is that you should be in or form a "band" and pursue stardom. If you're within the tradition the pursuit of stardom makes no sense and a "band" seems just as silly.
So the bottom line is that you have everything in between mixed into the impulse to start or become part of a "band." The reasons people are compelled to do so vary and the circumstances regarding their location and pool of available players figures in. For that reason I can understand why people have the impulse to start a "band" when they're really better suited to just participate in sessions, but it probably has more to do with creating opportunities to play music. If they had loads of great sessions to go to they might be less inclined. Just a hunch.
On the other hand it's helpful to have a band identity when you're playing ITM in the outback of Irish music. I was on the phone yesterday with a Paddy who was looking to hire session players to play some "diddle-di" at his wedding in exchange for beer and gas money. Having a "band" presence on line allows people who actually want to hire us for a decent compensation are able to feel like they're getting the product they're looking for, and even Paddies can see that we provide something more than just transporting a musical social event to their wedding. They would be able to do that of course if they want, but they need to find a session and ask people there instead. Personally, unless they're my friends I wouldn't really be interested.
I think this is a good topic for discussion, Will, but had it been my thread I would have just posed the question to find out what people thought before expressing my own biases and opinions.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
If a band gets paid for performing are they still an "Amateur" band? At what pay scale, audience size, band time to day job time ratio, or number of gigs per year does a band rise to semi-professional or professional musician status?
I have have a full time day job, but I play in a band because I like to perform. Sometimes the band gets paid well, sometimes we don't. Sometimes the lower paying gigs are a LOT more fun than the lucrative ones. Sometimes the whole short tour thing is like a mini vacation with a performance during the evenings where we're usually fed and "watered" appropriately--and we get to get people dancing and carrying on and forgetting their troubles for a short while. Seems like a good thing to me.
As for recording CDs. It's all a crap shoot right? My current band (fronted, with original music and all arrangements, by my wife) made our first CD before we started gigging. She just wanted some more product out there. The band hit it off so we started gigging... Then we made another CD... Then a big time movie director found one of our tunes from our first CD and added it (almost in its entirety) to a pilot for a TV series he was directing. The cash we made from that little bit of serendipity paid for the CD (all production, mastering and duplication costs) plus a small chunk of change for each member of the band. Had we had not made the CD, that wouldn't have happened.
Admittedly, we got lucky with the TV placement, but had that not had happened, is being in a band worth all the trouble for the monetary return? Bottom line is, nothing would have happened if we didn't put it out there--but even if that hadn't had happened I would still be in the band.
I did community theater for years--know what I mean?? 6 weeks of rehearsal, memorizing hundreds of lines, helping build the sets... then 10 shows over three weekends (hopefully to full houses) and it's done. Experience over. The stipend pays for a couple of nice dinners out and the reviews go into the scrapbook. Then it's on to the next show... Why would anyone in their right mind do something so arduous and time consuming for so little compensation? My answer: I love the theater.
I also love being in a band. It's a creative thing. Makes me feel alive, and it also makes me feel like I'm giving something to the community.
And we don't play trad... Well at least not "TRAD" trad... BWAAAHAHAHAHA!!!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by gw
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Now we get the specifics. Changes the scope of the question a bit, eh?
I'm assuming you've asked them why? And are now looking for the truth?
The reason I play in a band would be an entirely different reason from why they would choose to do so and forego the sessions. It could be ego or politics or an excuse to get out of the house and meet women (or men, depending) among strangers who won't rat them out to their families. Or they could feel they have to suffer for their art. Or they like being part of an exclusive group where they can look down on the people who come to see them. They might not even know themselves.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Good stuff, Jack and gw.
Jack, I worried that if I just asked the question, people would read into it all sorts of evil ulterior motives. They will anyway. But by explaining my personal take on the matter, I was hoping to ward off knee-jerk defensiveness. As I said, I've been in bands, I'm not disparaging the idea, just wondering why others do it, despite the hardships.
gw, the analogy with community theater occurred to me, too. But drama types have no other outlet for their passion. Us Irish traddies do--sessions. I suppose if the concept of sessions didn't exist, most of us would play in bands.
And I like that at least a few people here can happily admit that they simply enjoy performing. More power to you! That blend of honoring traditional music while having the chutzpah and flare for entertaining and engaging an audience is a powerful combination. I thoroughly enjoy professional concerts by groups like Altan for just such reasons. And I'm sure there are some good amateur bands that do it justice as well.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Mandogal, you can keep reading dark motives into my thread if you want, but you'll be missing the point.
I'd really like to know *your* reasons. Yes, I do know why most of my friends do choose to do the band thing. So why do *you* like it?
You've already said that you enjoy bringing this music to people who aren't familiar with it, and I can see how that's often easier to do as a band than as a session. But what other warm fuzzies do you get from a band that you wouldn't get from a session?
Sincerely, just curious.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Oh, and gw, I keep using the term "amateur" as short-hand for "bands that actually lose money yet keep performing anyway."
I don't mean that to sound disparaging, just realistic. And it gets to the heart of my curiosity--what could be so compelling about the band experience (and that you can't get from sessioning) that people would do it in spite of the hardships and expense? It's easier to understand when you actually make some money--even if just enough to help cover the costs of new strings, cds, etc. That's pretty much how my own amateur band works--we don't do paying gigs if we're going to lose money on them. But we do plenty of freebie gigs for good causes. In either case, our bottom line is that hassles should be at a minimum.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I'm currently playing in 2 duos (Scottish/Irish music), a 'bush' band (playing mostly traditional Australian tunes), attend 2 weekly sessions and i'm also a member of our local fiddle club.
I just enjoy playing music... that's all... and try to get in as much as i can. Sometimes i may miss a session because of a gig/rehearsal... but i'm still playing the music... which makes me happy!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by davydd
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
" Oh, and gw, I keep using the term "amateur" as short-hand for 'bands that actually lose money yet keep performing anyway.'"
Ah, you mean like The Flagellators! Great band, but what a bunch of losers!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by gw
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
LOL!
Reminds me of the old saw: How do you make a million dollars as a musician? Start with two million.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Wow, what must it be like to be in one of those bands huh? You have the power to turn the local sessions into your personal band practices, with the potential for flogging some CDs afterwards, or to give the local session scene a miss entirely. There are people here in the Bay Area with living room furnishings made out of boxes of unsold - and unsellable CDs. God bless you guys. Except....I'm also off in a cloud cuckoo land of my own about this music. It has nothing to do with bands.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
A lot of interesting comments above and many valid points to be agreed/argued with. I've been playing music since '64 when all you needed to know was 3 chords. A few friends got together and made music. It was fun, we felt a passion. We played in my parents Living Room. We were invited out to play dances. We started to attract the young girls. It was fun. We went our separate ways and I fell into a "band" during college. It helped pay the bills. I continued after school and it payed more bills and we toured up and down the East coast of the U.S. It was a job. It wasn't fun anymore. I stopped playing for 25 years and someone gave me a bodhran to beat. I was invited to play with a local group when a traveling fiddler sat down and we played. That was the first time in a long time that I felt I had made music. There is a difference between playing music and making music. Don't let anyone tell you different. The traveling fiddler invited me to a session. I traveled to Savannah, Ga.( 1 1/2 hours away) I sat in with these accomodating folks and I felt the passion again. It was fun again. Do we need to play for money ? No. We play because its fun. We're session players that get along great, we enjoy each others company and we have a passion. We make music, not just play. Getting money to play occasionally is a treat but not needed. Playing with people you like and enjoy their company is priceless.
Savannah Ceili Band
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by thepig521
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Sorry, I got carried away with my thoughts. To answer your question, Will, .."whats the attraction?'...no attraction, just fun. And if you must ask the question, you'll never know. I'm sure the question was rhetorical and I hope you "make "music everytime you play.
Cheers,
Have Goat...Will Travel
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by thepig521
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"That's exactly the sort of mindset that got me wondering about all this. ***Why*** a band? Why not start by going to sessions for 10 years and really getting grounded in this music?"
I don't have the skills to contribute positively to a public session, but I want to play music with others. The only way that seems possible is to form a "band". Even if it's a celtic rock band, it's still got the diddly. I can learn from it.
When I'm welcome at the local sessions here in Sonoma Co. I'll have achieved all I ever really wanted when I picked up the guitar(and recently mandolin) in the first place.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yep, thepig521, I get that "it's fun."
But you seem to have misunderstood the question. What is it about playing in a band that is more fun for some people than playing in a session? What is it about playing in a band (especially if it ends up costing you money, when most people at least initially think that they'll make money in a band) that keeps people doing it despite all the cost, effort, opportunity costs, etc.?
I have my answers. I'm sure other people have theirs. Would simply like to hear what those are.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
... I once did a friend's 40th birthday in the foyer of the National Library ... I never would have got to play there otherwise. There was a dance caller (a relative) from Sydney and the company, food and craic was good. I've also done the amateur community drama production thingy. Not too serious and we certainly had fun workshopping it so we all brought something of ourselves into it. I recon its great to join community type "amateur bands, choirs, drama productions, etc etc" and to be part of community events, visit old peoples' homes, school fetes etc. and see people enjoying the proceedings, even getting up to dance and enjoy themselves - you don't have to be pro to do that kind of stuff, and who needs money for that kind of enjoyment, hey!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
About 3 or 4 gigs a year - band line-up is always changing
Only do gigs if I think they will be fun to do or a friend's wedding or such-like.
Festival gigs are more about getting in free to the festival that I would have maybe gone to anyway.
As for the practice: I actually enjoy the practices for a gig. I get a sort of satisfaction out of doing something well with a bunch of friends with plenty of time to discuss the music and get it as good as we can. That's a different kind of fun to the session fun.
The people I gig with are the same people I session with.
The way I approach the gig experience there isn't really any negatives, though years ago I have done a few gigs from hell (another thread there). Those experiences have helped me to formulate what gigs I will pick now.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Donough
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Maybe its just that some of us are at that point where we just like to play. Whether its in "loose" session or Organized band mode. You're making me think too hard, Will. My brains aching. Mad cow, you know.
Cheers
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by thepig521
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Sorry -- had to do some work.
Sigh. That's the trouble with typed responses. It's too easy to read stuff into them. I don't think you're doing anything deep or dark with your question (and I wasn't in a snit when I responded. More like amused, with one eyebrow raised and a tilt to the head).
I write for a living. It's the greatest job in the world. When people ask why I love my job, I can't really answer them. I'd write whether I got paid for it or not. Sometimes it's an incredible hassle. Sometimes it's pure bliss. when i'm with my coworkers, I joke that I write for free, I get paid to put up with the bullsh...
I think playing in a band is like that for me. I'd play whehter I was in a band or not. I play at home with no other audience than my husband, kids and the cat. I play on Monday nights when the band gets together, and I stay after to play the session that starts up when the beginners leave. It's a venue. It's a reason to take out my instrument. It's a reason to make music, to lose myself in melody and mood and gloriious, glorious sound and rhythm and pretend for just a short time that I have talent and can illuminate the world.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yeah, I'm a writer, too. After 25 years, it still surprises me that people pay me to do this.
But I can articulate my reasons for loving it--I enjoy helping other people communicate, spreading understanding, I like the feel and sound and texture of words, of playing with them. I enjoy the simultaneously self-reflective and reader-sensitive act of putting thoughts on paper. I really like learning about the bazillion things I get to write about. I enjoy listening to people and then telling their stories to others. I enjoy painting a scene or a character with nothing but heiroglyphics. I like evoking tastes, smells, sights, and drawing someone into another place with just the right words.
So mandogal, those are the sorts of specifics I'm interested in about bands. You wrote: "I'd play whether I was in a band or not." Well, sure. Me too. No doubt most of us here feel the same way. The question is why, then, go the extra mile to play in a band, when you can be happy playing at home for the kids and cats.
And you revealed something when you said "....pretend for just a short time that I have talent and can illuminate the world."
Now there's a reason. Thanks.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Nice thread Will.
I'm just back from jamming on some jazz standards with the 'old boys' down at our local surf club on a beautiful sunny winter's day, watching a couple of whales frolicking in the bay. So many smiling people enjoying the vibe and I'm just glad to have been a part of it.
We're lucky to have some retired professional musos here, and after a lifetime of gigging they just play for enjoyment now as well as giving back something to the community.
Having the skills and opportunity to play music that brings enjoyment to people feels pretty good to me, even if we don't make any money out of it. I think plenty of older trad irish players would share similar attitudes.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by dogbox
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
As a person who has just joined a band (still havent done our first gig yet) I am getting real enjoyment with the arrangments - we do things in the band that just wouldnt be appropriate in sessions, not crazy way out fusion or anything, just little things....I'll let you know after our first gigs if I still like being in the band or not....I have a feeling not. I get the most awful stage fright I have even begun feeling sick with anticipation and the gigs are 6 weeks away
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
once when I was riding in my brother's car back in highschool he saw some girls skateboarding and he rolled down the window and yelled "skate chicks, why do you do it?" Anyway, Cruella - it sounds like you'll be just fine - it's when you don't have any feelings of sick anticipation that you get into trouble!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by airport
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Stage fright -- the dark side of performing.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
BB... you'll do fine! Playing on stage gets easier the more you do it... you can trust me on that. plus you'll have the support of your band members which makes a big difference.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by davydd
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Heh, the opera diva Beverly Sills threw up before every performance. Imagine putting yourself through that.
Beebs, it's normal to get wound up about it when you're new to the whole game. Just accept it and refocus on the music. You'll do great. If you flub the music, just flash your winning smile!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Apparently Paddy Keenan still gets really nervous before each gig....my friend backed him when he was on tour here...very nervous - it kind of makes him seem more human and less god like
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Oh, and the anticipation is the worst of it. Once you're actually playing and interacting with the audience, things loosen up. Then the next time it's not such a leap into the unknown, and it gets easier and easier.
Just think, soon you'll be a jaded old has been!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Heh, Paddy has a reputation to uphold. That's some pressure.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Ive been on stage before for little things here and there and usually with a big group of people...I feel so nervous before hand that I actually have to stop myself throwing up - last time I worked out that if I paced one way for 10 steps then turned and did the same thing over and over then I calmed down a little. I have to do a solo in the band - i'm most worried about that - no-one to hide behind
The thing is - some people really dont care about what people think of their playing. I am the complete opposite -and for some reason I really really really care what people think of my playing.. I have no idea why - my friends think I'm nuts
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Sorry, but, airport---_girls_ skateboarding???? I have lived a long life, and seen many things--including many skateboarders--but I have never, ever seen any skateboarding girls. Something to look forward to, I guess. I'll add it to my Bucket List.
Almost back on track--It happens I'm likely to see Paddy Keenan do a house concert in a couple of weeks. It's reassuring to learn that he's human.
Fully back to the subject: That put-yer-ass-on-the-line, risk-taking aspect is part of the appeal of playing in a band, at least for us Type R personalities. It's kind of like the first time I ever tried to lead an actual tune in an Irish session, after years of random noodling in jam sessions. I didn't know whether to run, sh!t, or go blind. I will never forget it, honest I won't.
Hmmm.... maybe there's not that much difference between sessions and bands, after all. It may be more a matter of perception.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Well, you've got six weeks to play that solo in front of anyone you can. Make an idiot of yourself and play it out in public, in front of crowds, as many times as you can between now and the first gig. Go busking. Play in a city park during lunch hour. You'll quickly find out where the stumble points are in the solo--keep at it and you'll find ways to soldier through them.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
to beebs: Me, I just kind of look down at the fiddle under my chin and say, "Well, here we are again, old friend, just you and me." And start playing, ignoring the audience completely. That's the only way it works, for me. Every time I think about the audience, or what I might look like, I screw up.
Just stick to the tune, that's the ticket.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Good point, mickray. It can be healthy to take those risks now and then, put yourself on the line. The more you do it, the more familiar you become with your abilities and perhaps how much farther they extend than you realized beforehand.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
p.s. What's the worst that can happen? It's not like skydiving.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"p.s. What's the worst that can happen? It's not like skydiving."
No, skydiving is much easier.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Hmm - I think skydiving sounds less scary. The worst that can happen is I play like crap and everyone ends up thinking that youre a shocking musician, give me perilous risk taking things anyday!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Well, obviously the only thing to do is combine them, get it all over with. Be sure to post the YouTube link, OK?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I think skydiving is simular;
for it's that sudden STOP that gets you "every" time. ;0)
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Ray Mariani
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Coming a bit late to this one, but I did read it!
It puzzles me that after the infinite numbers of posts on this board about session problems and angst no one seems to have mentioned the point that in a band you get to control who's playing, you decide what's happening in advance, you can "do it better next time," you can put a link between tunes if you want, etc etc. Okay you may not have the serendipity and spontaneity of a session, but who says you can't do both things at different times?
You don't need to be a control freak to enjoy having things planned sometimes. (And if you say, "we can do all those things in our session," then to my mind, it aint a session, it's a performance.)
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yeah Tom -its really nice to play with the musicians in the band, we all get each others play and like (most times) the same thing. You dont have to put up with session wreckers..
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
So a "band" is basically a closed session?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
no - you dont arrange stuff in closed sessions. A band is basically a band, with arrangements and stuff.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I like playing in bands, but just the way I do now, acting as a sub in established bands 4 or 5 times a year. Sort of hired banjo. I would really call them "amateur" though - most are relatively well-paid gigs.
The trick (apart from knowing the music and being able to "fit in" to a band of course!) is to have your own equipment, not be too fussy about the set-up, and (this makes you a very desirable band member here) *have a car with plenty of space*
Playing gigs every weekend - been there, done that and is too anti-social for me.
I feel less pressure onstage with a band than I do at a session. Onstage you are with your friends, playing arrangements (loosely speaking sometimes!), to an audience that just want to enjoy themselves and don't care or know whether the tunes you're playing are clichéd, overplayed, undeprlayed, too fast, too slow, too ... whatever.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
*wouldn't* call them amateur, I mean
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I'd like to ask this question but first let me tell you a bit about myself...............
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
to be honest, its a social enabler for me. I always liked how a booking schedule worked like a social calendar.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I hit the sack and you guys party all night on this thread, eh? Well done.
I think I got what Will's saying. Perhaps a more refined question would be for those in bands with local sessions to go to, but don't, what's up with that? For me, gigs are always secondary and infrequent, plus I don't view them as being the music in its native habitat so to speak. If you want to pursue the music, have no sessions near you, yet have a few folks to play with, why not just start a session?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
To plee the lasses merry tunes
And mak 'em dance wi' glee
(quoth Robin Spraggon's auld gree mare)
To be honest, I don't know many people who are in an amateur band, the call for dance bands is such that anyone who is any good can find a semi-pro band to play in - most of my session colleagues play in some sort of semi-pro setup.
After nearly 40 years of playing in dance bands, the novelty still hasn't worn off. If playing every weekend and always geting paid ... makes you proffessional? I suppose so.
Yes, I have done it full time, which is not fun - the travelling, the playing to furniture - it was lucrative but soon wore thin.
I am mad on tunes and what a greater accolade can you have than someone wanting to dance to your music - and you can tell by the dancing you have the tempo right.
I also believe in putting something back and do everything I can to encourage beginners in sessions and eventually to start up their own bands, and to carry on playing past their teens.
Yes, it is a huge commitment and a mammoth logistics exercise, planning holidays around gigs and taking gigs 18 months in advance, with different people playing at each gig.
If they get up and dance, it is wokth it.
As long as you don't kid yourself you are going to make it big time, carry on enjoying it.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
The session is to me the most important arena for my music. I enjoy good gigs by others, and I have played many gigs where "it came together". Sometimes though the line between session and band seems a little thinner than most of the time.
I have started an amateur band recently, consisting of 5 guys and me. Knowing these people from slightly different (but still fairly close (Oslo being a small town when it comes to accoustic traditional music (and in all other respects....))) musical circles. After playing with the lads in different sessions, I thought : "What would it sound like if we practiced a bit?". So we have had a few get togethers over a long period of time, as some of the lads are professionals, and hence travelling all the time. The goal with the band is to get a loosely practiced repertoire for one gig. And I must say, the sound of these lads (and me) in a band setting is quite pleasing. It's like a tight session that stops and starts at the same time, with slight arrangements.
S
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by snorre
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
geoff says it all for me
I think that Will is implying that there's a fair bit of self-indulgence in a lot of these amateur bands, and if so, (he'll probably deny it now!) I'd agree, but ... so what?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
one thing you can do with a band is work with your textures and orchestration a bit more than in a session. Like having the bodhran and tin whistle lay out for a section, then come back in together and lift the energy, that sort of stuff.
The Chieftains are masters of that sort of stuff....well, and masters of about everything else, too, for that matter
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Funnily enough, that sort of happens in sessions anyway, when someone (Except for b******s and g*****s) doesn't know a tune, or doesn't like it or whatever. Arrangements by default. And most session sets, even though it's *not a performance* tend to end on something most people would know, which makes for a pleasing perfor ..., erm I mean, session.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I played in rock & roll bands from the age of fourteen to nineteen. My motivation was mostly that it was fun, gave my battered self-esteem a boost and brought me several long-lasting friendships. But it was also a welcome bit of income, paying for my school lunches, weekend amusements and most of my clothing. Twenty years later, I was recruited into an eclectic string band. We “practiced” once a week and played two or three gigs a month (we all had day jobs), mostly within an hour’s drive but with the occasional overnighter. We usually got paid fairly well, but we also did charity and other worthy fundraisers. Wherever we played, dancing usually broke out and that doubled the fun. After five years, we broke up when I had a disabling injury.
If you play music that you love and you have friends to play it with and there is a crowd of people who listen and dance to your music and generously show their appreciation (and you get paid), how much better does it get?
As for touring and trying to make a living at it, count me out. There was never a time I wanted to do that. Not even when I was young.
I’m finding that I appreciate amateur/semi-pro performances more and more. Not the I’ve-got-a-guitar-I-know-not-three-but-five-chords-I-can-be-a-star type, but the ones who obviously have deep respect for a tradition and have found a way to make it live and breathe.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yeah, even though I'm ostensibly in three different "band"s, I prefer playing in sessions. And one of the drawbacks of being in a band is that it takes something I love, and makes it much more like work. Don't get me wrong, it's good to love your work. But having to practice, even when you don't feel like it, and only playing a limited repertoire takes a lot of the fun out of it...
I can't imagine wanting to be in a touring band, playing ITM. Sure, you get to play with people that you like every night, but it's gotta be like Groundhog Day (the movie), and feel like you're playing in the same damn session every night, with little variety. No wonder some of the bigger name bands I've seen look extremely bored on stage (if you look past the forced showmanship and stage banter).
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
well, yea, Bren, but I was just trying to think of reasons why I'm still in bands....
Will's got me contemplating retirement over here
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
HI Reverend, very good points - especially about variety and the Groundhog Day syndrome. We do about three gigs/month, sometimes more - and it works for us because they're all a bit different - a wedding, a BBQ, a concert or an acoustic do (and those are the nicest of all). When we play together a lot, we know what to expect musically, and I find our attention shifts onto the audience - by which i mean that sessions are made or broken usually by your fellow-musicians, whereas in a band you're doing similar stuff at each gig and you know what's going on musically, so it's the audiences that make the difference at each gig, and the quality of our playing is down to the audience reaction. When it goes well it's a tremendous buzz, just like it is in a session, really. I think variety is important - you put it so well when you talked about forced showmanship and stage banter - and it's great to do a mix of sessions and band gigs. But in the band, we do do it for the money - or at least, we only do free gigs if it's a pet cause or as a favour to one band member.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yeah, that's a good way to put it, Mark. "Pet cause or as a favor". That explains my philosophy with my two "session bands".
But Will's question brings up other scenarios, like the band that travels to play at a festival at their own expense (including hotel rooms), and then gets rained out. So I'm curious as to what the motivation for that would be... Is it that they are deep in the hole from having to pay for recording a CD, and need to get out and hawk it? Is it some desire for recognition from other human beings, especially in the US, where people tend to treat performers as royalty? Is it truly just that they enjoy playing together and that they want to bring joy, happiness, and a bit of the tradition to other folks? Or is it really money that motivates? I have personally never made more than about $150 for a band gig, and it's usually a lot less. When you consider the time and effort to rehearse, travel expenses, and hassle, it's never been worth it monetarily.
So my "not band" thing is the most fun. Like I said, we don't rehearse, we don't have a set list, and we don't even really have a name. But we put on a good show, because the crowd can tell how much fun we're actually having. It's like a hand-picked session, with people that love playing together, and then you add the fact that we're in front of an audience, and so it forces us to raise our game. It can be about the most fun I ever have playing music. Personally, I would *love* to see some of the more "famous" trad bands do that. Get up on stage, and play whatever. No arrangements, no canned banter, no sets from their latest album, just a free for all session with people that love playing together. Now *that* would be entertainment!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Oh wait... Now *that* would be a session!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Good stuff everybody. Now we're cooking.
Bren, yeah, I *do* sense some self-indulgence in the whole band scene, but then I sense it in sessions too--the people who come to a sesh so that everyone else can bask in how good they are. *snort*
But I don't mean to insinuate that self-indulgence is all bad. Just wondering what the various reasons are behind it. Some great answers above.
And bearing in mind that to truly function as a band, each member needs to support the others--it's a pretty selfless way of making the music. Bands that are just a constellation of prima donnas rarely last long and often don't sound tight....
The dance band phenomenon isn't something we do much here in the states. In most places here, there just aren't that many ceilis or trad dances. For example, our local step dance schools host ceilis about twice a year, and the adult set dance club does one or two a year. So when they ask us to play for them, we just invite the whole session along and one or two people take the lead in stringing the tunes together properly for the dances. It's a much less organized affair all around than it must be in Ireland and the UK. (I'm guessing that Boston and NYC and other major trad hotbeds here have more formal ceili bands, but here in the hinterland people are just tickled to have any live music to dance to.)
I heard from someone in one of the bands that got rained out last weekend, and was told that they probably won't bother going to that festival again--too much expense and bother. They prefer gigs closer to home, although the odd travel gig is okay--sort of a musical vacation from the day job.
Now that makes a lot of sense to me. One reason I enjoy playing music so much--in a band or in a session--is that it's so drastically different from what I do in my day job. Music is an antidote to life behind a desk, wordsmithing all day. As much as I enjoy my work, it's wonderful to switch gears and do something completely different. Being good enough at it that people pay us is just gravy.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
It's pretty much de rigeur for weddings to have a ceilidh in Scotland these days. It keeps quite a few bands busy at weekends and, as it's a one-off (mostly!) for the couple, they don't mind splashing out on a big band fee.
Our kids went to an ordinary, even "rough", high school but they all did Scottish dancing as part of their PE, so there's generation of young hoodlums who think it's quite normal to strip the willow, eat some reals and dash the white sergeant while wearing a man-dress.
Still , you need a good caller as there are a lot of incomers at these dos
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
in Northern Scotland, anyway. I've noticed they're not so into it south of the North Esk
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"...so there's generation of young hoodlums who think it's quite normal to strip the willow, eat some reals and dash the white sergeant while wearing a man-dress."
LOL. Erm, yes, we don't have such a hoodlum population here in Montana.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Bands are good crack, not recommended for those with stage fright, a bit like amateur dramatics. Why get up there if you are frightened?
For some they just crave an audience, to me that was nearly the whole buzz in drama, but with music you like to play as well, and get paid.
By the way, I admit I am going back to the 1970s, but Paddy Keenan didn't appear to be nervous. Mind you, most of the time he may not have realised where he was
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Apparently I'm better at accompanying songs than at playing tunes. So I don't really thrive in session conditions. I find them too competitive. In a band you can choose who you play with regularly.
I get a kick out of performing 'on stage' and money plays no part in it. We mostly do charity gigs and have no ambition to become rich and famous. We don't go out of our way to get a gig either.
Of course the 'band' idea - drums, bass guitar - influences people. As a bass player without a band you are - nothing. As a fiddler without a band you need a certain environment like session pubs. Everybody understands 'gig' - few people understand 'session'.
I like to be in a band as long as I feel it is developing, moving, improving. Band rehearsals are also a good excuse for a social get-together. In sessions I find there is precious little time to talk.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by kuec
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Will,
I was just thinking that the board had been boring lately, and you came in with this most delightful thread.
I do not remember why I got into a band, but I do know why I like being in one. In a band, you can do what you wish, and things can be a little more arranged, and 'tighter' if you will, you get to know each other better, and can play off each other. As someone who likes to harmonize more than sing melody, being in a band with stronger singers is a great place for me to be. And also, a band is a great outlet for someone like me who likes to dabble in different instruments.
I love sessions, but sometimes find that a few of the people engaged in them take them too seriously, and have very fixed ideas of what a session should be, which dampens the fun. I find there is too much emphasis sometimes on the fastest and flashiest playing at the expense of inclusiveness. If there is singing, it is often solo, of the 'hush everyone, and respect the artist at work' variety, which can be wonderful, but hardly brings everyone in on the fun.
I also think that there is a whole Irish American tradition of joining in singing that is generally frowned upon by the session crowds, but which I very much enjoy. Most of the friends I have who grew up in more ethnically influenced households describe singing old favorites around a piano, or instruments playing along with the singing, so this tradition from what I can see is at least as old and valid in America as is the session tradition.
Since the general public that hires bands in the US to play Irish music often prefers the old songs, this is a perfect fit for myself and those in the band with me. We don't earn enough to cover expenses, and generally do only about 10 gigs per year which keeps things fresh. But we love playing to, and connecting with, the audiences.
So to me, being in a band in addition to playing in sessions brings me more musical satisfaction than I would derive from sessions alone. To each his own, but for me, I choose both!
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Great posts kuec and Al. Yep, singers can thrive in bands, and bands thrive with good singers. It's a good symbiosis and one of the aspects of playing in a band I enjoy, too.
My experience with bands and sessions has been different than what I'm hearing here, though. Our session is very close knit--we've become good friends, and there's always plenty of time for talk and crack. The bands I've been in were more serious, business-like, rehearse, gig, and go home. I suppose it just depends on the people involved and their ideas of fun. A band or a session can be social and fun, or competitive and work-ish. Glad to hear that many people don't take the band stuff too seriously, while still doing their level best with the music.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I have just typed in a dozen unsatisfactory answers, all deleted.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by drone
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yep, I got invited into one such an amateur band once. I bust a boiler to learn all their tunes for the (nonpaying) gig, attended every rehearsal, played the gig. People danced and had a good time (although we weren't perfect). After which I thought we'd sit on the hay bales around the fire for some tunes, I was mad for them (I get that way sometimes, a bit too obsessive and apparently way over the top), but admittedly it was, by the time we finished, late, and everyone packed up and left except me. I asked what was up and was told that was it till the next gig. The next year they invited me again, said I'd know all the tunes, but I couldn't be bothered.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
That certainly happens with dance bands, where it might be 1am or later by the time you finish, then you've got to pack up and may have a couple of hours to drive home. But it seems a shame if you're just playing for the crack, and presumably not too far from home. I'd imagined they'd be a laid-back party crowd in the Alice.
I presume your bandmates weren't into sessioning? I know some great musicians who never go to sessions. Or perhaps they were already stretching their partners' forebearance with this "band" hobby and d. idn't want to push their luck
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Actually, my nose was really out of joint.
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
... me then being a newby in town and looking for people to play with and they'd all been playing together for 16+ years. As I say, I sometimes am way over the top, tooooo bluudy serious fer words. So Bren the answer is no to the sessioning. The thriving folk club from the 70-80's only functions for the festival (every second year near here) and Bloodwood disbanded not long before I arrived to stay and the Bloodwood fiddleplayer left town (although he flies in for gigs at Glenn Helen, sometimes, I hear tell. Some fantastic musos around the town (don't get me wrong) ... but not interested in playing Irish trad (with me).
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I'm glad to see this thread is still up, since I've been thinking of Will's question most of the day.
(First off, Will, a very elegant explanation of the lure of the good fight -- I'm still doing it after 32 years, so, yeah, all of that. and more. we should exchange professional emails and continue the discussion in a less public venue)
Back to the question at hand. My band is a non-profit and it's a duplicate of the session it comes from -- just a pared down version. We never know who's going to show up, so it's a different band every gig, sort of like the session is a different session every meeting. So it's just one more place to share with old friends.
I find that I play better when I play a gig than when I play during sessions. I have more oomph, I play better faster and I surprise myself in a good way sometimes, something I can't say in a session, where I occasionally feel like an idiot and, with some sessions, end up sitting out a lot because I don't know the tunes. With a gig, I know all the tunes.
My daughter's harp teacher was explaining to her that her heartrate is faster than an adult's, so playing something "slow" to her ear is a lot faster than an adult playing slowly. Apparently judging music speed is connected to heart rate. So when I'm on stage, my heart rate is faster, and I can play faster or play better faster.
And, as someone said, there's access to restricted areas, no session etiquette to worry about and even money!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Paddy Keenan had a cold last time I saw him. He said nary a word, but he played so sweet:
http://www.paddykeenan.com/multimedia/track%2010.mp3
http://www.paddykeenan.com/multimedia/track%2001.mp3
Obviously, these are not recordings of the last time I saw him, but they are free downloads from his web site so I thought I'd offer them up for your iPods
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by gw
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Come to think of it, since our band "practices" pretty much every week to prepare for less than one gig per month, I guess it could probably be considered to be as much of a kitchen party or house session as a band!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Sounds like a closed session to me.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Jack - if thats the case then you have been having a closed session for near 20 years. Talk about snobbish!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Oh no ... not that word again ...
.
Its suddenly become the word of the week and open to all sorts of unintended inferences. Yikes!
Hey, how could anyone begrudge a group of people forming a band or playing together because they like to play together and enjoy their friendship and company.
The Phantom is pushin' Buttons, I think
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
yes - exaclty.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
No... I'm making a valid point... you're getting defensive.
What is a sessions? A session is whatever the people starting it want it to be. What is a closed session? That's a session where people restrict who can participate.
When I read the descriptions in the thread above about how people who have bands have regular rehearsals and what they do at them -- it sounds a lot like a session. The fact that the session (rehearsal) is limited to a certain group of people makes it sound like a closed session.
There was a local group who got together to play tunes in their home and later in a cafe and called themselves a "band" and had a name and such... and they referred to their weekly get-togethers as "rehearsals." They would make arrangements and practice them at their rehearsals. Every now and then they would get a gig, but mostly they just "rehearsed." When I described to one of them what a closed session was she declared that their weekly rehearsals sounded like what a closed session would be. That's what they referred to them as after that... so I'm told.
You folks seem to think there's something wrong with a closed session, but I don't. But I do think that's why you get defensive if I use the term. What's wrong with a closed session?
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
bb writes: "Jack - if thats the case then you have been having a closed session for near 20 years. Talk about snobbish!"
~~~
No... we don't rehearse... we only play either together or as individuals in public open sessions. Every now and then we'll get together before a high profile gig and rehearse... but that's very rare. I can hardly see how that might be considered "snobbish."
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
there is nothing wrong with a closed session, we have house sessions some time. However - and this is the point Jack - the Band I'm in does rehersals every week for *gigs* not for a session. So therefore it is a band rehersal and not a closed session. Thats what I'm getting at. Plus - you'd have to be pretty crap indeed to have to practise weekly for a closed session...no?
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I was ony pointing out that if you call a rehersal a closed session - then thats what you are doing to. Also - if we'd all been in a band for 20 years then I'm sure we wouldnt have to practise as much.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Oh - and I assure you, our rehersals are nothing like a session. Unless you count playing the same sets over and over and over again with different arrangments a session. Not like one Ive ever been to.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I don't rehearse with the bands I "drop into" at all. Usually when someone can't make it for some reason.
It's always short notice and the ceilidh one plays so many gigs, at least two a week, they don't need to rehearse much
They have the arrangements already and they just tell me the tunes, or sometimes not, and I go with the flow, or at least try to look like I know what I'm doing.
Suits me down to the ground.
Every time I go with them I've whittled away the group of tunes I don't know a bit more.
I realise that is the opposite of Will's topic but I know friends in "bands" that rehearse and hardly ever play gigs and I don't think I'd enjoy that so much.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Bren
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
So many people have had bad experiences with 'closed sessions,' especially when those events are often held in public, billed as sessions, but then treat newcomers like unwelcome interlopers. For me, the term 'closed session' feels like an oxymoron, since 'session' implies openness and welcoming, and 'closed' slams the door in my face. I think that, despite the fact that the originators of a session get to set the tone for the session, when you call something a 'session' you have an obligation to be inclusive, to some extent at least.
I generally refer to a gathering held in someone's home as a house session or kitchen party--and of course, since it is their home, they can invite who they want.
So Button, perhaps the term you used has some 'baggage' attached, which is where the prickly replies came from.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yea, I don't understand why the "prickly" replies are coming in, Al. The first time I mentioned the term "closed session" was in response to bb and Tom comparing rehearsals to sessions. I simply asked the question. Why I suddenly became the representative of a closed session and target for resentment is a mystery to me.
Then the next time I mentioned it was after you said, "Come to think of it, since our band "practices" pretty much every week to prepare for less than one gig per month, I guess it could probably be considered to be as much of a kitchen party or house session as a band!" Apparently when I echoed your characterization of your rehearsal as a session and commented that it sounded like you were describing a closed session it mean I was a snob according to bb.
It might help if people followed the thread by responding to what people are actually saying rather than making assumptions and then attacking people based on that.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Jack - when I said you were snobbish - it was meant in a jokey kind of way...I'm sorry it didnt come across like that...but then again it always happens on boards like this. Sorry again.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Hmmm. As bb has described above, I would think a closed session would function as a session, while a band rehearsal would function as a band rehearsal.
I can imagine cases where the distinction would get blurry, but I can still see why someone might get prickly when you make a one-liner comment (with no further explanation) suggesting that their band rehearsal sounds more like a closed session.
I guess I just don't understand the compulsion to pin ill-fitting alleged synonyms to things....
A band rehearsal and a closed session are two different things. That's why we refer to them by different terms.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
But Will, that's according to your parameters of what constitutes a "session." But a session is whatever the people starting it want it to be. If it's a closed session their own parameters can even be more specific. If the session they're having is to play the music in tight arrangements... so be it.
We have already argued in this forum in great detail about what we believe sessions are or aren't. I think it's clear that there is no international standard that people must comply with or their session privileges will be revoked and they will be prohibited from calling what they're doing a "session."
A session where the music is played in tight arrangements might not be your idea of a good session, but it doesn't disqualify the participants from holding it either in public or privately.
What Al was describing his rehearsals to be sounded very much like a session, and he even said so. bb did say that the rehearsal prevented the presents os "session wreckers." I think if you're having an open session it would be boring to participate in if the people who started it are using it primarily as a rehearsal, so having it as a closed session would be preferable.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Thanks bb... I'm glad you were just funnin when you called me a snob. There's no smileys included so it was hard for my slag-detector to kick in. Had I known I would have tried to come up with what I would hope to be clever repartee instead.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Heh, so if Dervish takes money to get up on stage and play nothing but the carefully arranged and rehearsed sets from their latest album in front of an audience, but they choose to call it a session, then it's a session?
Yeah, people can use words any way they want, but not if they hope to be understood.....
Sure, a band can sit in a pub and play arranged sets from their cd or gig list and not let anyone else sit in, and call it a "session," but I suspect most people here would find the usage confusing.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Careful, Will, you're traipsing awfully close to your performance quagmire.
Come on now, Will, There's no confusion there. I don't think anyone here was considering their rehearsal to be a stage performance in anyway similar to a Dervish show, or a performance of any kind really. Go back and read what Al and bb said and if you can point out where they described what they're doing as anything resembling a Dervish performance I'd like to see it.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
That would be a public performance, Will, not a session. Are you, like, totally stupid or something? Don't you know the difference?
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Haha, cross-posted with Jack there.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Ah, the old Jack is back....
If there's no confusion, then why did you say that someone's band rehearsal sounds like a "closed session"?
Pinning a label where it doesn't belong is what creates confusion. So why not just call it a band rehearsal? Or let the people in the band call it what they want, which is what you say sessioneers should be allowed to do.
Band rehearsal: arrange sets and songs, figure out who plays what and how, and then practice all that, over and over so you'll be tight for an upcoming gig or studio recording.
Session: play tunes, sing an occasional song. Rarely if ever repeat a tune on a given night ("party foul"
). Not in preparation for anything.
It's not me who's confused....
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
LOL, the "performance quagmire" wasn't mine alone.
Jack, you were the one insisting that sessions were performances, and then apparently saw the light and later posted that sessions weren't performances but "celebrations."
Careful, your urge to argue is showing.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I have an easy way to tell them apart.
Band Rehearsal: "Can we do that again with the one part over there?" Sigh. "OK..."
Session: "Can we do that again..." "Are you outta yer tree? NEXT!"
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Of course.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Probably why I don't do it. Talk about tedious.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Will writes: "Pinning a label where it doesn't belong is what creates confusion. So why not just call it a band rehearsal?"
~~~
I'm not confused about anything that was said in this thread. People were calling it a rehearsal and comparing it to sessions. All I did was make the comment that it sounds like a "closed session." This was based on their descriptions of their rehearsals. I'm not attempting to pass any laws or make any decrees.
========
Will attempts to reopen his can of worms saying, "Jack, you were the one insisting that sessions were performances, and then apparently saw the light and later posted that sessions weren't performances but "celebrations.""
~~~
On the thread I started on that topic the title said: "Sessions ARE public performances?" Notice the question mark? (go back to the original thread [below] and you'll see.) My premise was and still is that punters probably perceive sessions being held in public places as performances regardless of what we think we're doing. I personally see sessions as a celebration of Irish music.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/3705
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
In Ireland a "closed" session would be a session in a pub with the same people playing every week, and visitors would not be invited to join in.
Appearing on a stage and performing, is a performance.
And I confess I must ask. What's a rehearsal?
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
It was your thread, Jack, not my "can of worms."
Spot on, Bliss.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Bliss... do sessions only happen in pubs in Ireland?
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Can someone close Will's can of worms please?
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
LOL, I thought Bliss did a good job of putting a lid on it.....
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Anyone who doesn't know the difference between a closed session and a band rehearsal should go to bb's house on a Wednesday afternoon. Both kinds of get-together happen in bb's house, but I've been in the next room when they've been rehearsing on the Wed afternoon (most often because I got too p*ssed to drive home the previous night at the open pub session, so had to kip on the sofa and then nurse a hangover the next day) and you can't listen to a rehearsal like you can a session. They play the same sets over and over again, experimenting with arrangements and practising the changes between tunes. It's really tedious and the only way I have to deal with it is by shouting through the odd bitchy comment, only I have to be careful to keep a low enough profile that I don't annoy them too much, otherwise I might not be allowed to stay the following week. Closed sessions at her place are very different. I'm usually invited unless bb's being a real snob and wants to shut me out just because the tunes I play aren't trendy enough for her, or unless I'm abroad, where I can be as horrible about her as I like and she can't get her revenge by throwing crockery at me across the room like she did last time.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Mark, I never said bb's rehearsal was a closed session, I just posed the question first to bb.
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Coming a bit late to this one, but I did read it!
It puzzles me that after the infinite numbers of posts on this board about session problems and angst no one seems to have mentioned the point that in a band you get to control who's playing, you decide what's happening in advance, you can "do it better next time," you can put a link between tunes if you want, etc etc. Okay you may not have the serendipity and spontaneity of a session, but who says you can't do both things at different times?
You don't need to be a control freak to enjoy having things planned sometimes. (And if you say, "we can do all those things in our session," then to my mind, it aint a session, it's a performance.)
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by TomB-R
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yeah Tom -its really nice to play with the musicians in the band, we all get each others play and like (most times) the same thing. You dont have to put up with session wreckers..
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
So a "band" is basically a closed session?
# Posted on August 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
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Here's where I said something "sounded" like a closed session:
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Come to think of it, since our band "practices" pretty much every week to prepare for less than one gig per month, I guess it could probably be considered to be as much of a kitchen party or house session as a band!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by AlBrown
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Sounds like a closed session to me.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
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Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Jack - if thats the case then you have been having a closed session for near 20 years. Talk about snobbish!
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
---------
Now I understand bb said she was just funnin in this post, but what I don't understand is why posing the question pigeonholes me as the representative voice of a closed session and makes everything I say translate as advocating or declaring things are "closed sessions" when it's not what I was doing. This confounds and amazes me and makes me wonder why I bother to contribute to a discussion board where I get attacked for saying things I never said.
# Posted on August 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I dont really like the term closed session -so I'm going to call it a house session instead.
All I meant by the comment its good to have people in the band who like youre kind of music - is exactly that - its good to have people in the band who like my kind of music and vise versa. Its not a closed session - I dont know what other bands are like at rehersal - but I'll tell you, its more like homework that fun (which is what a session is)
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by bb
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
I know what you mean, bb, I think having a band is fun for those same reasons.
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
In Ireland sessions are in pubs.
Playing music in someone's house, that's a party.
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Oh dear, things got a bit tense there.
All I was trying to say is that, if you listened to the band 'practices' that we hold, you would probably hear an even mix of woodshedding new songs and tunes, played repeatedly, but also quite a few tunes and songs we have in our repetoire that we are playing for the sheer fun of it, not because they need work. Some bands may work harder at it, we fortunately all get along well, are doing what we do for the love of it more than anything else, and just enjoy playing and singing.
While I do not care for the term 'closed session' (for the reasons I mentioned above), I certainly can see why, given my description of our practices, PB thought it fit the bill.
Although, like I said, at other times we sound like the events Dow describes (which I would also hate to listen to while hung over, sometimes it is better not to know how the sausages are made).
The gatherings we call 'band practices' are never one thing and the other at the same time, but sometimes one thing, and sometimes the other.
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Who says you have to call it anything? It's still a bunch of musicians getting together to play music and have a good time. That's a session just by the sake of what happens regardless of any label. The fact that the participants are restricted means it's closed just by the sake of what's happening. Maybe it doesn't include attributes that people commonly associate with "sessions," but who cares whether you call it a rehearsal or a session as long as you enjoy it.
Or maybe it's what Bliss calls a "party'? LOL
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"Who says you have to call it anything? ..."
Ditto!
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by gw
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
because the thread has drifted off into yet another pointless, semantic debate..
How about this: performing is an addiction. "Hi, my name is gw and I'm a performer."
"I like being in a band because I like being on stage. I like rehearsing because working out the kinks make for a better on-stage experience. And while I prefer getting compensated for my efforts, I can (because I have a reasonably lucrative day job) go out of pocket for the occasional gig if it has the likelihood of being a good time. Most (but not all) of my band mates are of a similar persuasion. If they all were we would play a lot more than 25 gigs a year."
"And... because I play in a band with my wife, when we leave town for gigs we get to stay in a motel so it's kind of like a cheap weekend away. Ooh la la! Win win!"
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by gw
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Excellent reasons, gw!
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
When you go on a mini tour with your band for a few days it's a rare chance to go feral in a group of adults - I have to say the most bizarre / wonderful / memorable experiences have happened to me on tours - I dare say we've even frightened a few people but it's a real blast. That's why I do it.
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
Yes, "party" does describe it better than "closed session". But bb, how would you distinguish our session parties from ones where we just get wasted and listen to 80's music? Maybe "tunes party" would best describe it.
# Posted on August 16th 2008 by Dow
Re: Amateur bands...what's the attraction?
"mostly people in their 50s who harbor no fantasies about being the next Irish superband"
~ still a touch of fantasy is fun.
I figure if you want to perform ~ live it up so everyone feels