I’ve encountered something very odd with a simple tune. It’s a bit hard to explain so please bear with me.
I learnt Britches Full of Stitches by listening to a slow, dry recording of the tune played on an unaccompanied concertina, ie; no backing/other instruments, just the tune straight and simple.
Last Sunday when I introduced the tune to our weekly practice session, the boys began to back it on what I thought was the 2nd beat. “Whoah, hang on,” I said, “you’re coming in on the off-beat”. So we tried it again. Same thing happened. Then I asked them to try coming in on what I hear as the “ONE”, and when they did they made puzzled faces and half-way through ended up naturally slipping back into what I hear as the “two”. After several surreal attempts at getting the tune going, we’ve narrowed it down to the probability that I’ve learnt to hear this tune with the emphasis on the wrong beat. It’s bizarre. It’s a bit like I hear “emPHAsis”, instead of “EMphasis”. I'm playing it note-for note but the real "ONE" is on the "TWO" in my head.
I’ve never experienced this before. I liken this phenomenon to those 3D computer generated pictures – sometimes you see them in negative instead of positive, and that’s what I think my brain has done with this polka – turned it around 180 degrees and it’s now inside-out.
I’m sure with a bit of effort I can re-learn the tune the right way around, but it’s difficult to unlearn something already etched indelibly in your memory.
Has anyone else experienced this? Or am I just a weirdo?
yes, in jazz. Some bebop tunes like "Oleo" start just after the first downbeat. It always tangles up my drummer if I don't warn him before I count it off.
It has to do with how we, the melody players sort of have the tune in our mind's eye just a hair faster than the backers, who are reacting to our actions are gathering it in. At the start, they are marking time from the first sound they hear, whereas we might have a context in our heads already. Unless they already know the tune, and know to watch out for the start, that sort of thing is likely with certain tunes.
I think it's fairly common, especially when you're first starting out. When I was first learning to play, and someone taught me a tune with pickup notes at the beginning, I wouldn't be able to play it without the pickup notes. A few times, I remember being confused as to where the downbeat was.
I think this is a good lesson to learn, and you'll pay more attention to it when learning tunes on your own in the future.
It happens all the time in classical music. The most famous example is the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony; we're all familiar with the opening four notes but they really follow a downbeat rest.
Brahms loved to write this way to fool the ear. In his 3rd symphony, the strong beat of the famous waltz is actually following an 8th note rest, and when it finally resolves at the end, it's jarring to the ear, even after many hearings.
At my session, we hear all sorts of variations in the rhythm; that's why it's so important to listen carefully and be ready at all times for surprises.
?? Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the backers may not know what they're doing??
Just because they're more experienced as musicians than you are doesn't mean they know very much about accompanying irish music.
What you are describing sounds to me like you're playing the tune the way you learned it, presumably from an experienced traditional concertina player, and a couple of hacks tried to impose a bluegrass/swing rhythm instead of an IRISH rhythm. There IS a difference.
I've been in sessions before where someone started a tune solo, and you can't even tell if it's a jig or a reel! I know a whistle player like that (thankfully, I haven't seen her at our session lately). She's technically good, in the fingering department anyway, but there is absolutely no pulse to the music. Dead flat.
Nah, it's me! The boys aren't hacks; they know what they're doing. When we dug up the (eek) dots to try and figure out what was going on, I could see where I was turning it inside out. But I can't really play from sight-reading (its a very time-consuming process for me), and I still hear the tune differently to what is written, rhythmically speaking. It's very odd. I'm hoping it's just a passing thing!
I remember accidentally dancing a whole Canadian barn dance on the off-beat once and the guy I was with trying to pull me back onto the on-beat the whole way through, but I wasn't having it. Quite groovy really, but I don't think he was too impressed. And I have learned tunes the 'wrong' way round before a few times, and long, long after I first started out. I think it has sometimes happened when I've misheard the length of one note in the middle of the tune and effectively recomposed the tune in my head to make sense of it and then kept on practising it that way.
It certainly adds an interesting dimension, but its disconcerting. But I think I really need to hear a recording of it with other instruments - I imagine it will sound like a whole new tune altogether when I finally get the beat the right way around.
As Yoda said, 'Unlearn what you have learned'. That's the hard part!
"Perhaps learning tunes from recordings of isolated instruments is not the best approach; there aren't a lot of timing reference points."
I totally disagree, providing that the player you are trying to learn from is a good musician and has good rhythm to start with; it should be easy then to tap out the correct rhythm while you are learning the tune. I prefer to learn from unaccompanied music as it is much easier to pick out the individual notes and rhythm. I wouldn't be a bit worried bindicat about not being good at reading the dots, that's to your advantage (I firmly believe) in the long run as much of the music in any given tune is impossible to annotate. There are plenty of discussions on this board about dots verses learning by ear if you want to do a quick search and check that aspect out.
Just had a listen to the various versions of the tune on YouTube - sheesh, there's even someone trying it on a pan-pipe (good grief, it's woeful!). Didn't have any luck with any of the versions until I found a bunch of kids playing it badly (well it would have been alright without the thumper), and guess what? I heard the ONE in the right place! Thanks 5-year-old youtube fiddler!
This is the way I was taught to lilt/sing this little polka:
o-Oh the brit-CHES full OF stit-CHES
o-Oh the brit-CHES full OF HOLES
o-Oh the brit-CHES full OF stit-CHES
why-Y i wear THEM no-ONE KNOWS
etc for the B part - mostly strong off-beats (2nd beat of the bar). The double strong beat in the 2nd and 4th "lines" is important to give this polka the right emphasis (off beat then on beat).
I would add though, that this is probably only one way of hearing/playing this tune but it's the way I was taught.
last week, at noel hill's irish concertina school, a member of our class was in and out all week. we were practicing a tune we had learned the day before, which he had never even heard. he decided to learn it on the fly.
he fell into the same trap we all did: that the long B, which sounds like the last note of a phrase/the tune, is actually the first.
noel had to tell him, "B is the first note." playing the tune with B as the last note, and not the first note, is very confusing, because then the count of the phrases gets mixed up--certain things sound like the beginning of phrases, and certain sound like the end, and then you seem to be missing a beat, when you get to B and then all of a sudden the tune is starting over, so you're missing another beat.
noel called the tune the leitrim thrush. it looks to be the same tune as the on on the site, but in D instead of C, and a totally different setting.
also, when you try to learn hickey's reel, track two tune two of kitty lie over, it seems like they are missing a beat as well, and that the BE E2 is the first beat, not the second. so, even though i know that is not the, and even though i have two versions written out, every time i hear them play it slowed down it sounds like they are missing a beat.
the_spelched_briar, the one you've linked actually *is* a weir tune. The problem with that one is that the very first note they play is on the *first* beat of the bar, whereas it doesn't half sound like it's on the 3rd beat, ie at the half bar. When I learnt it, I had to get someone else to listen to me and count the bars I was playing before I was sure I'd got it right, and it still throws me a bit.
Also, of course, the Roaring Barmaid seems deliberately designed to throw you off the beat.
"The Hag at the Spinning Wheel", Bob himself? Do you think so? Hmmm ... that one sounds really regular to me ... possibly because I've known it so long ...
buttons & whistles, that's brilliant, you've illustrated it very succinctly. I was hearing it this way...(which is pretty much the opposite of what you've said)
oh,
the BRIT-ches FULL of STIT-ches, oh
the BRIT-ches FULL of HOLEs, oh
the BRIT-ches FULL of STIT-ches, why
i WEAR them NO-one KNOWS, oh... etc etc
You see, I was tacking the first beat of the next bar onto the end of the previous one - wrong! That's what Daiv mentions too, I think.
I like it when things finally make sense. Thanks folks.
benhall, do you play the D part of Maid At the Spinning Wheel? The setting I learned is from Jerry O'Sullivan, and it's definitely got a weird offbeat emphasis.
The accmpanists "should" be aware immediately, that you are doing something different/unusual and pull back untill they work out what is going on. You can maybe signal this sort of thing by arm/body movements.
If they don't notice / aren't looking / aren't listening, should they actually be playing?
Yes, geoffwright, the accompanists should be paying close attention to what the leader is doing (said the man who has many years of experience as an accompanist/sideman/backup musician).
Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
I’ve encountered something very odd with a simple tune. It’s a bit hard to explain so please bear with me.
I learnt Britches Full of Stitches by listening to a slow, dry recording of the tune played on an unaccompanied concertina, ie; no backing/other instruments, just the tune straight and simple.
Last Sunday when I introduced the tune to our weekly practice session, the boys began to back it on what I thought was the 2nd beat. “Whoah, hang on,” I said, “you’re coming in on the off-beat”. So we tried it again. Same thing happened. Then I asked them to try coming in on what I hear as the “ONE”, and when they did they made puzzled faces and half-way through ended up naturally slipping back into what I hear as the “two”. After several surreal attempts at getting the tune going, we’ve narrowed it down to the probability that I’ve learnt to hear this tune with the emphasis on the wrong beat. It’s bizarre. It’s a bit like I hear “emPHAsis”, instead of “EMphasis”. I'm playing it note-for note but the real "ONE" is on the "TWO" in my head.
I’ve never experienced this before. I liken this phenomenon to those 3D computer generated pictures – sometimes you see them in negative instead of positive, and that’s what I think my brain has done with this polka – turned it around 180 degrees and it’s now inside-out.
I’m sure with a bit of effort I can re-learn the tune the right way around, but it’s difficult to unlearn something already etched indelibly in your memory.
Has anyone else experienced this? Or am I just a weirdo?
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
yes, in jazz. Some bebop tunes like "Oleo" start just after the first downbeat. It always tangles up my drummer if I don't warn him before I count it off.
It has to do with how we, the melody players sort of have the tune in our mind's eye just a hair faster than the backers, who are reacting to our actions are gathering it in. At the start, they are marking time from the first sound they hear, whereas we might have a context in our heads already. Unless they already know the tune, and know to watch out for the start, that sort of thing is likely with certain tunes.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
I think it's fairly common, especially when you're first starting out. When I was first learning to play, and someone taught me a tune with pickup notes at the beginning, I wouldn't be able to play it without the pickup notes. A few times, I remember being confused as to where the downbeat was.
I think this is a good lesson to learn, and you'll pay more attention to it when learning tunes on your own in the future.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Perhaps learning tunes from recordings of isolated instruments is not the best approach; there aren't a lot of timing reference points.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
It happens all the time in classical music. The most famous example is the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony; we're all familiar with the opening four notes but they really follow a downbeat rest.
Brahms loved to write this way to fool the ear. In his 3rd symphony, the strong beat of the famous waltz is actually following an 8th note rest, and when it finally resolves at the end, it's jarring to the ear, even after many hearings.
At my session, we hear all sorts of variations in the rhythm; that's why it's so important to listen carefully and be ready at all times for surprises.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
?? Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the backers may not know what they're doing??
Just because they're more experienced as musicians than you are doesn't mean they know very much about accompanying irish music.
What you are describing sounds to me like you're playing the tune the way you learned it, presumably from an experienced traditional concertina player, and a couple of hacks tried to impose a bluegrass/swing rhythm instead of an IRISH rhythm. There IS a difference.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
I've been in sessions before where someone started a tune solo, and you can't even tell if it's a jig or a reel! I know a whistle player like that (thankfully, I haven't seen her at our session lately). She's technically good, in the fingering department anyway, but there is absolutely no pulse to the music. Dead flat.
So I can well believe your experience, Bindicat.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Steve Austin
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Nah, it's me! The boys aren't hacks; they know what they're doing. When we dug up the (eek) dots to try and figure out what was going on, I could see where I was turning it inside out. But I can't really play from sight-reading (its a very time-consuming process for me), and I still hear the tune differently to what is written, rhythmically speaking. It's very odd. I'm hoping it's just a passing thing!
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
I remember accidentally dancing a whole Canadian barn dance on the off-beat once and the guy I was with trying to pull me back onto the on-beat the whole way through, but I wasn't having it. Quite groovy really, but I don't think he was too impressed. And I have learned tunes the 'wrong' way round before a few times, and long, long after I first started out. I think it has sometimes happened when I've misheard the length of one note in the middle of the tune and effectively recomposed the tune in my head to make sense of it and then kept on practising it that way.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by west-coaster
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
It certainly adds an interesting dimension, but its disconcerting. But I think I really need to hear a recording of it with other instruments - I imagine it will sound like a whole new tune altogether when I finally get the beat the right way around.
As Yoda said, 'Unlearn what you have learned'. That's the hard part!
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Nah! It's quie simple, really, bindicat. You're a freak!
This has never happened to anyone else in the entire history of music-making.
Ever.
PS Really like the username
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
"Perhaps learning tunes from recordings of isolated instruments is not the best approach; there aren't a lot of timing reference points."
I totally disagree, providing that the player you are trying to learn from is a good musician and has good rhythm to start with; it should be easy then to tap out the correct rhythm while you are learning the tune. I prefer to learn from unaccompanied music as it is much easier to pick out the individual notes and rhythm. I wouldn't be a bit worried bindicat about not being good at reading the dots, that's to your advantage (I firmly believe) in the long run as much of the music in any given tune is impossible to annotate. There are plenty of discussions on this board about dots verses learning by ear if you want to do a quick search and check that aspect out.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by gtag
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
This brings to mind The Hag (Maid) At The Spinning Wheel. A good one for throwing folks off the beat.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Just had a listen to the various versions of the tune on YouTube - sheesh, there's even someone trying it on a pan-pipe (good grief, it's woeful!). Didn't have any luck with any of the versions until I found a bunch of kids playing it badly (well it would have been alright without the thumper), and guess what? I heard the ONE in the right place! Thanks 5-year-old youtube fiddler!
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
this has happened to me recently,
my supplementary issue is;
what if your "out of sync" version is better/more interesting?
heres one that threw me off, and i still dont know whether ive got it (there is a weird skip in the middle)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A&feature=related
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by the_spelched_briar
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
ie, there is a weird skip in the middle- which makes me wonder am i hearing the 1st tune incorrectly
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by the_spelched_briar
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
This is the way I was taught to lilt/sing this little polka:
o-Oh the brit-CHES full OF stit-CHES
o-Oh the brit-CHES full OF HOLES
o-Oh the brit-CHES full OF stit-CHES
why-Y i wear THEM no-ONE KNOWS
etc for the B part - mostly strong off-beats (2nd beat of the bar). The double strong beat in the 2nd and 4th "lines" is important to give this polka the right emphasis (off beat then on beat).
I would add though, that this is probably only one way of hearing/playing this tune but it's the way I was taught.
Cheers
buttons n whistles
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by buttons 'n' whistles
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
this is not the same, but similar:
last week, at noel hill's irish concertina school, a member of our class was in and out all week. we were practicing a tune we had learned the day before, which he had never even heard. he decided to learn it on the fly.
he fell into the same trap we all did: that the long B, which sounds like the last note of a phrase/the tune, is actually the first.
noel had to tell him, "B is the first note." playing the tune with B as the last note, and not the first note, is very confusing, because then the count of the phrases gets mixed up--certain things sound like the beginning of phrases, and certain sound like the end, and then you seem to be missing a beat, when you get to B and then all of a sudden the tune is starting over, so you're missing another beat.
noel called the tune the leitrim thrush. it looks to be the same tune as the on on the site, but in D instead of C, and a totally different setting.
also, when you try to learn hickey's reel, track two tune two of kitty lie over, it seems like they are missing a beat as well, and that the BE E2 is the first beat, not the second. so, even though i know that is not the, and even though i have two versions written out, every time i hear them play it slowed down it sounds like they are missing a beat.
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by daiv
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
the_spelched_briar, the one you've linked actually *is* a weir tune. The problem with that one is that the very first note they play is on the *first* beat of the bar, whereas it doesn't half sound like it's on the 3rd beat, ie at the half bar. When I learnt it, I had to get someone else to listen to me and count the bars I was playing before I was sure I'd got it right, and it still throws me a bit.
Also, of course, the Roaring Barmaid seems deliberately designed to throw you off the beat.
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
"actually is a weird tune"
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
"The Hag at the Spinning Wheel", Bob himself? Do you think so? Hmmm ... that one sounds really regular to me ... possibly because I've known it so long ...
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Reverse Beat Phenomenon would be a good name for a band
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by Ray Mariani
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
buttons & whistles, that's brilliant, you've illustrated it very succinctly. I was hearing it this way...(which is pretty much the opposite of what you've said)
oh,
the BRIT-ches FULL of STIT-ches, oh
the BRIT-ches FULL of HOLEs, oh
the BRIT-ches FULL of STIT-ches, why
i WEAR them NO-one KNOWS, oh... etc etc
You see, I was tacking the first beat of the next bar onto the end of the previous one - wrong! That's what Daiv mentions too, I think.
I like it when things finally make sense. Thanks folks.
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
benhall, do you play the D part of Maid At the Spinning Wheel? The setting I learned is from Jerry O'Sullivan, and it's definitely got a weird offbeat emphasis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TRJQtf_x44
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
The accmpanists "should" be aware immediately, that you are doing something different/unusual and pull back untill they work out what is going on. You can maybe signal this sort of thing by arm/body movements.
If they don't notice / aren't looking / aren't listening, should they actually be playing?
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Reverse Beat Phenomenon - anyone had this?
Yes, geoffwright, the accompanists should be paying close attention to what the leader is doing (said the man who has many years of experience as an accompanist/sideman/backup musician).
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by fauxcelt