Unable to imagine myself playing by ear, I started to learn the dots some months ago. I'm getting on fine (if slowly).
When listening to the music, it's almost impossible to separate the notes when they're played in any way fast.
Then a thought came to me last week: am I wasting my time learning the dots? Maybe I should just slow down some CD tracks and try to follow them instead. Problem is that I can't match the notes on a CD to the notes on my mandolin.
I've found that the dots give me a better understanding of the structure of the music. However, using an American mandolin book might not be the best for playing ITM.
What should I do? Should I just stick with both approaches?
Well, you certainly picked a can of worms here. This debate has been raging on since the early days of this site, and most of us are tired of arguing it.
But FWIW, I'll give you my impression. If you work at listening, you will get better at it. And to play Irish music well, most people agree that you have to listen to a ton of it. Sheet music can give you some basic notes, but it can't give you the Irish feel. I learn by ear exclusively, and use dots as an occasional reference to remember how a tune starts. But if you rely on the dots, they will become a crutch, and you won't learn the music in such a way that you can manipulate it with rhythmic and melodic variations, which is one of the best parts of playing this music, IMO.
It helps if you have other players around you that can teach you tunes by ear at a speed that you can handle when you're first starting out.
I will agree with Mary that learning to read music is a useful tool. And from your bio, amhrán, it appears that you listen to a lot of Irish music, so that's a good start.
But when you're first starting out playing, your focus is all on the notes. And the notes are only part of the equation. You also need to learn to make it sound right, with the right rhythm, ornamentation, and lift. So if you use the dots to learn a tune, your goal should be to get the tune in your head so that you can play it without the dots as a reference. At which time, you can then start focusing on the feel as well as the notes. And for me, when I try to learn from the dots, I don't retain the tune as well as when I learn it by ear.
I'd say stick with both. You will never regret having learned to read music; you will always find it helpful. But listen as often as you can to as much as you can. Yes, the recordings fly by at warp speed, but soon you will hear patterns. Try singing along with the recordings, one small part at a time, then working out the notes on your instrument.
I can't believe I've gone away for a fortnight to come back to this ...
However, in the spirit of being helpful, yes this subject is indeed fraught with controversy, as the Reverend suggested above. Here's the gist of the controversy: there are some - myself included - who would argue that, *especially* in the early stages, it is best to learn to pick the tunes up, by ear, at speed. We would say something along the lines that even slowing it down won't help you, because you won't get the right feel for the tune. And the dots will give you nothing at all. If you do pick up the tune(s) by ear, you will then not only have learnt a tune or two, but have picked up a very valuable tool which will stay with you forever.
It seems impossible at first, but if you stick at it, forcing yourself to learn by ear will come quicker than you would think. Try starting by playing the tune, on the CD, over and over, until you can get it playing in your head. Then trying singing it / lilting it to yourself. Then try it on your instrument. Laborious at first - pretty easy after a while, and *so* worth it.
On the other side of the argument, it is indeed very useful to have the skill to read - and write - the dots. Don't let people tell you it isn't.
In order to broaden your repertoire there is nothing more direct than the ability to sight read musical notation on the spot.
Reading can take you through various genres. The usefulness of notation is also one of the reasons experienced readers are (sometimes) reluctant to try something without a hard copy.
Consider also that your ears are amazing sensors of music. The original in fact.
Aside from session tunes musical notation will serve you well. Now session tunes, specifically, I would 'look' at that with my ears. As you learn to read music please do nt say, "I use the dots because I cannot always trust my ears." If one does not come to trust ones' ears might miss the most wonderful thing about connecting with music. About connecting with other players..
sorry for the typos. I think you will be getting more opinions.
Since Reverend said he looked at your bio I had to peek.
I have to tell you i often listen to Liam O'Flynn's piping on Planxty's "Well Below the Valley" I just cannot get enough.
Random_notes wrote: "In order to broaden your repertoire there is nothing more direct than the ability to sight read musical notation on the spot."
Too often, this sort of flippant, absolutist generalization skews the conversations here. Of course there are more direct ways to play music--listening and playing by ear chief among them, as Random himself goes on to say in the rest of his post.
Yes, being able to make music from the dots is useful, but it's hardly the most direct route. Music is aural. Try playing it without any ears.
See the discussion I started a few pages back about a player at a session I run. I would suggest that you learn by ear, listen. It's ok to supplement by using dots, but once you start to pick the tunes up by ear, you will find you don't have to remember the dots or play with them. Also, as you get to know the melodies by ear, you will find that it gives you some guidance as far as how you play the tunes.
I vary my chords based on the melody and my mood and what I am hearing. I don't always play the tune according to the chords that seem to make sense. As someone here said, there are no right chords.
If you had to choose between listening and following the dots--no doubt listening is the way to go. It may take a little longer, but a year down the road, you will be a much better player for sticking it out. It is not easy, but now I can figure out the key and find the chords quite quickly to tunes I have never heard before.
One thing that makes this thread different from most of the others is that the poster grew up in Donegal and has been listening to Irish music for several decades.
Which suggests that the poster will likely have less trouble sorting things out by ear, as well as having at least a glimmer of what the inky dots should sound like.
And that's just another way of saying that listening--approaching music aurally--is the primary way in to the music. Dots serve a purpose, but using your ears is more important.
Not that using our ears and eyes is mutually exclusive, eh? Or that our brains are too small to learn and hone two skills at once.
As much as possible, rely on your ears to learn and play this music. And learn to read and write the dots--that's another useful skill. Sometimes, the dots will even help you sort out something your ears missed. Use that information to help you listen more closely, with greater understanding. Nothing wrong with that approach--best of both worlds.
Amhran, find yourself a teacher or mentor, someome who will play the tunes slowly for you, phrase by phrase. Someone immersed in this music who can show you how it works, teach you about timing, phrasing, articulation, and nyah. Find a mandolin or banjo player, or anyone on any instrument whose playing you admire and aspire to. Then soak it up.
Funny cartoons, amhrán, and cool photos. I don't think that the standing stone would have anything to do with the Normans. There is no evidence that they had any connection. Most standing stones are very much older, stone age, bronze age, which means they date from 3 to 5000 years ago. That's the first time I've come across a tradition of painting one white. Quite amazing, for those, like me, who are interested in ancient culture. You might like to post the photo here. The idea is to get as complete a record as possible.
Amhran - I think you've gotten quite a few useful posts here, and you're tremendously blessed in having grown up around the music. I only have one little anecdote to add. A group of musicians I know started up a beginners session about 5 years ago. None of the twelve folks had any real background in the music and came to it in the middle age of their lives. They all initially started out with what ever sheet music they could find to start their journey. Now, 5 years later, those in the group who learned to use their ears and immersed themselves in recordings of Irish music are now playing hundreds of tunes at whatever session they like. However, there are still a few from that same group who continue to rely on sheet music and can barely string set together without having to flip the pages. They are still laboring over the same batch of tunes with very little growth as players.
Learning by ear seems impossible at first, but I have to say, four and a bit years down the road, it does get easier. But I still use the dots to speed up the leaning of tunes I can already 'hear in my head'. (Though I have to say, tunes learned by ear do stay in my fingers better.)
Learning how to read and write sheet music has actually had an odd benefit for me. Some tunes, you might notice, have some weird beats, extra beats, a series of runs, odd structure of whatever kind; it helps me tremendously, AFTER learning such a tune, to straighten my head out by writing it down and counting it out. Can work wonders on some mazurkas >_>
I was lucky enough to have teachers who placed an equally strong emphasis on both ear training and learning how to sight read. Both of these skills have been very useful to me whenever and wherever I play music with other musicians.
You should stick with both that's what I've done and I've improved scarily quickly in the last year. Granted, I'm young (18) so things come quicker, but learning by ear and with music with a good balance can work wonders.
I tend to like finding a tune in a book, playing it through as it is written, then going along to a session and asking the musicians if they know it and if they do know it, play it for me. Then by listening to that, I get a good appreciation of how it should go and I pick it up fast coz my fingers are already familiar with it due to the time taken playing from the book.
If none of the musicians can play it, I look on the internet for a recording of it, simple.
I'll content that any trad musician worth his/her salt can play and learn tunes by ear. This means that you MUST learn how to pick up tunes by ear at some point, or you'll be considerably handicapped in the trad music environment.
That said, it's obviously up to you to decide how you will to go about getting into the trad music environment.
You could learn tunes off of sheet music, which would likely be easier at first, but wouldn't really help you develop the all-important ear. Or you could take a whack at learning by ear, which will be slower going at first, but will help you develop your ear the most.
The biggest risk of learning off of sheet music is that you'll think you're doing better at it than you really are. Sheet music is a rough-cut approximation of what people actually play (much like a paint-by-number kit is a rough approximation of what people might actually paint), and without developing your ear you won't hear what you're missing.
If you (or anybody else) need any other evidence, try this exercise:
1) Pick a recording of your favorite musician playing a tune, any tune.
2) find sheet music for that tune, and learn the tune from the sheet music (memorizing it is absolutely critical. If you can't play a tune purely from memory, you haven't learned it).
3) Compare how your favorite musician plays this tune against what you learned off the paper. Try to find EVERY place they play a different note from what you learned off the paper, and learn to play their note(s) instead. It helps if you play along with the recording.
4) realize that for the energy you just expended in step 3, you could probably have saved time by skipping step 2 entirely.
5) Look at how much difference there was between what you learned off the sheet music and what you heard your favorite musician play. Note that no piece of that difference was anywhere to be found in the sheet music you used in step 2. Also note that if you had not done step 3, you might not have noticed that difference at all.
With all due respect Will I believe you are misrepresenting my post.
You obviously are more knowledgable about music than me. I do not think I posted in a flippant manner. You may be interpreting my phrase, "the most direct way . . ." as being equal to the best approach. or is it absolutist. I have observed sight readers who "cover several genrese in one sitting." Some are very good at faking it. That is not the same as saying they mastered even one genre by this method. Likely they retain little from the experience.
Once again ears are all important within the aural tradition. & in the same breath; far be it fro me to discourage anyone from kearning what I have done for years; reading & writing notation.
Thank you very muxh.
Random, you said "nothing is more direct than the ability to sight read musical notation on the spot."
Sorry, but that "nothing" makes it an absolute statement. And blatantly wrong-headed, since ears are always "more direct" than eyes when it comes to playing music, as you've alluded to yourself.
This is the truth now, most every singley amazing musician I know learns tunes by ear..no dots. Take what you will out of that...but its just the way it is.
I do ot intend to argue . . . so with the utmost respect;direct alludes to 'momentary ~in one sitting.
I did ot qualify the method as desirable. it is merely utilitarian not aesthetic.
Random, I got your meaning when you first posted it. But you're mistaken. The "most direct" way to play in the moment, across any genre, is by ear. Sheet music may help a player "fake it" well, but that's all it will be--faking.
Will I finally understand what you are saying. Pardon me of if I am not good with symantics or physiology or physics.
Conceded in a pedantic sense,'Nothing is more direct than the ears."
P.S. are you a part time dictator? Now that is flippant but not absolutist.
Actually, JNE, remember right, Random is a she (and I got that wrong above).
I don't think it's just semantics. When Random wrote above that "nothing is more direct" than the dots, she clearly wasn't saying what she meant. I'm just glad we got that cleared up before llig came back from his red card holiday....
You certainly don't need sight reading skills if all you want to play is ITM. No one bothers to notate all the nuances, so even with the ability, you don't have any advantage. If you want to learn how to reproduce the style there is no way getting around listening to it and yourself as you evolve.
Even so, there are those that only hear what they want to hear. We all have our individual noise filters to deal with complexity we aren't prepared to process. There is a lot of subtlety going on and it takes repetition and active attention on your part to pick it out. I don't think it matters if you grew up with the stuff playing every night in your home and back yard. There's plenty of music I heard regularly growing up in a family of professional musicians that I didn't really "hear" until I started trying to play it myself. Now that I'm not playing professionally any more and settling down more with people that are still learning a lot for the first time, I can see the same pattern as the lights slowly turn on for them.
Good point. Really attentive listening is more than simply having tunes going in the background. I'm amazed how often people in sessions seem to be doing the latter....
You are an interesting lot on this board. On the one hand you seem to want to encourage new people to take up Irish trad to ensure the tradition lives on; on the other, when a new contributor comes forward with a perfectly reasonable question, a good number of you can barely stifle a yawn before deigning to offer an answer. Many of you clearly have a great deal of knowledge to share but gleaning this knowledge by reading through past threads is a bit like listening to the CD rather than getting in a having a play. So which is it guys - are we newbies just propping up the bar or are we welcome in the session?
I'll be honest, and everyone here know what I'm like anyway so its nothing new. Newbies are welcome absolutely...but only if they have a bit of cop on, don't be coming in to a session well over your head and thrash away wrecking it for everyone. And when people say things like 'you must learn to pick up tunes by hearing' Then go out and learn to pick up tunes by ear. If it isn't the answer you're looking for (not you personally clogstepping) then why ask the question in the first place?
bb that's useful advice for both real and virtual worlds. And yeah - if the advice is go out and listen, let's hope that's taken that on board - but there's also much to be learned from others about their experiences of picking up tunes by ear. I try to do both - it's always interesting to see where the dots vary from what I think I've heard. The danger with the dots lies in my natural tendency to laziness - it find it easier to rely on the dots rather than committing the tune to memory accurately. I'm working on it. So I've been reading this thread to see who else suffers from innate laziness. Hoo!
(Yawn) It's just that we've been over and over this, for, like, seven years now (ho hum).
And nothing personal against amhran, but on the face of it, asking whether to use your ears or eyes to play music is a silly question, no? I mean, you wouldn't log on to www.oilpainting.org and ask whether it's better to use your ears or eyes to learn to paint.
So let's see...should we use our nostrils or taste buds to properly learn this music?
It might be easier to learn easy tunes by ear at first rather than difficult tunes, so maybe train the ears by learning on easy tunes. I don't know, I don't know - that's just what I think I found in retrospect. If you're at an advanced session though, many of the tunes might be difficult intricate ones, so learning by ear might seem a bit daunting in the early stages - like for a few years! Just my opinion, but what would I know.
Interesting point there Will - taste buds may not be essential but I reckon you could make an argument that making music (or art) requires total sensory engagement. And if there's Guinness involved well, yes, tastebuds come into it too
"should we use our nostrils or taste buds to properly learn this music?"
Oh Will, you've really opened up a can o' worms here. Before the debate rages, and Jeremy deletes that post, can we agree that the answer is clearly, "BOTH!"
Nostrils to sniff the Guinness, and taste buds to taste it.
...and I hold myself as an example of how a truly hopeless case can improve at learning by ear. It's taken years, and sometimes a tune can take an hour-a-night for a week or more -- but with a deft touch on the pause and rewind buttons, I can now accurately suss out almost any tune, no matter how fast it is played, from a recording.
clogstepping, I can understand how it might look that we're a bit disinterested with this particular question, but as Will CPT has pointed out, this topic has been discussed ad nauseam, about every two weeks. It often becomes a bit heated, and winds up the board a bit. Arguments, people getting banned, etc. It really is probably the most discussed topic on this forum. If only one thread in a hundred has been about this topic, then it's *literally* been discussed on average every two weeks over the last 7 years.
But your analogy of a session is a good one. And I would consider the response by people here during this thread to be the analogy of the beginner coming into a session who only knows three tunes, Spootiskerry, The Kesh Jig, and the Butterfly. Not that those are bad tunes, necessarily, but people are sometimes tired of playing them. We smiled, and played along by answering the question the best we could, because we *do* want to encourage new people. But we couldn't stifle a bit of a yawn during the process.
generally, the cardinal rule here is to "be civil". If you do something that Jeremy (the website owner) considers to be on the wrong side of civility, you'll get anything from a warning, to suspension, or banning.
browndog, you ain't got there yet. When you do, it will be like a light flashing on, and you'll think "Ah, so *that's* where I was going wrong".
Try this:
* don't use the pause button until the end of the track
* play the whole track over and over until you have it going on, automatically, in your head
* sing the tune
* play the tune
When you've been able to do that once, it will never leave you. And I promise, you'll like it.
Mind you, as others have indicated, CDs are not the *best* way. Real live people are best.
Yes, you are so right. I failed to mention that I do all of that, too.
And since my primary form of commuting to/from work is bicycle, I often like to listen to a new tune a gillion times until it loops incessantly through my head, and then pedal to the cadence of the tune while lilting it along the road. Loads of fun -- and really helps with learning the tune when I actually do sit down with the recorder or iPod and work out the notes.
But you are right that I "ain't got there yet" because even though the tune is easier to learn/play/retain when I do this, it still requires a quick thumb on the pause/rewind to pluck out the notes.
So your final step, "* play the tune" is still something for me to strive for.
Being able to read dots is a great time-saver as long as you don't rely on it.
For instance, without picking up an instrument, I can look at the sheetmusic of a tune, flick through it in my head and immediately decide -
yes, I like that tune,
or
no, Im not keen on it
yes, if someone played it, I could join in with it
or
that tune is worth saving on my pc to practise and eventually add to a set.
It works both ways - if you can flick through the dots and hear the tune, with practise, you should be able to hear a tune and write down the dots. A great time-saver for anyone who is a tune-magpie (like me).
Hey, browndog, you don't sound hopeless to me at all. All it takes is perseverance, and you seem to have that in spades.
Also, you're a cyclist, so you can't be all bad!
geoffwright, I've done that 'flicking through the tune to see if I like it'. I must have done it thousands and thousands of times. I'm almost always wrong, in that some tune I've dismissed, from reading the dots, turns out to be lovely and a 'must-learn' when played by some musician I happen to bump into in some session somewhere.
Apologies for not having checked up on this before posting. I'd forgotten how much of a hot potato the subject was and that there had been hundreds of posts about it.
In answer to Will CPT, I wasn't 'asking whether to use your ears or eyes to play music'. I was merely asking whether there was any benefit in learning the dots.
I do know that learning by ear is the ideal method but that method is easy for those of you who are long-established and experienced musicians.
When you're listening to the likes of Paddy Glackin or Mairtín O'Connor playing at full flight, it's impossible to make out three notes played in quick succession in the space of a second.
Still, I'll give it a go and try to play by ear while still learning how to read the dots.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions. I promise not to bring it up again!
It's good that this subject comes up often. Yes, it can get boring, repetitive, stale and confrontational, but it's an important topic, especially with newcomers joining us all the time. Besides, if you don't care for it, the next time it comes up again (and you know it wlll) you can always pick up your instrument and have a reel or two.
A lot of good recordings are so fast that it is really difficult to get more than a few notes. There are some players that play tunes at a speed suitable for a learner to pick them up. Martin Hayes and May Macnamara spring to mind. There are plenty of Irish music websites that have slow version of tunes for learners e.g http://irishflute.podbean.com/
Personally I find a slowdowner program useful for picking up the notes on a fast recording, but once I learn them I go back and practise the tune at speed to get the beat.
I can sight read but I find that it is of very limited use with this music.
Even though my first music teacher (my mother) taught me to play the piano by learning to read sheet music or the "dots", I am also very glad that I managed to learn how to play music by ear as well.
Whenever I look at sheet music, I don't think of dots--instead, the notes on the paper remind me of golf clubs.
LOL, amhran, if what you were really after was the pros and cons of learning to read the dots, then why title your thread "Ears or eyes?"???
No worries bringing it up again.
Off the top of my head, a few benefits of understanding written notation (dots, tab, and/or abcs):
- You can learn to hear with your eyes, so the dots become just another way to learn by ear.
- Ink on paper is a handy memory aid, a storage device for tunes.
- It can help you understand the structure and theory behind tunes, and music in general.
- It's a handy way to talk with others about the music. ABCs are great for emailing with friends around the globe.
- If you're highly visual (as I am), you can "see" the music in your head, as needed, to help you remember how a tune starts, or call up that missing B part.
- You can use written notation to teach others, if they want written notation.
- You can surf all the printed tunes available in books and online to add to your repertoire.
And so on. Listening is best. But the above bennies are good, too, and learning to "sight hear" really isn't that hard.
Learning by ear is hard at first, but its like anything - practise makes perfect. Its not something that just comes automatically to people. Its an effort - just like everything else in teh world. God I remember when I was first learing to pick up a tune by ear, one tune - 4 days and constant rewinding for hours and hours each day. Now I can pick up a tune in sometimes 5 minutes.I agree with Harry about getting a slowdown software - Maybe the Amazing Slowdowner or something.
I learned to learn by ear mostly in real time while listening to tunes on Thistle and Shamrock on the radio. Wasn't easy at first, but it helped no end when I started going to sessions.
The best slow-downer software is in our own minds. You can play a tune back at any speed, at any pitch, in any combination of those (and other) parameters.
Also, if you're new to your instrument, learning tunes by ear will be hard becuase you won't know where to find the notes. Once you're really at home on your instrument, the tunes sprout up under your fingers much more readily.
Eyes or ears? Eyes OR ears?
If I could only have one or the other then obviously it would be ears. If I was lucky enough to have both, which I have, then I would endeavor to use both.
You can never progress in this music without using your ears as much as possible but anyone who thinks written music is not useful is kidding themselves.
Clogstepper raises a good point above, even though us old timers have discussed some of these issues ad nauseum, we need to be sensitive to the fact that we have newcomers among us, wide eyed and innocent, who need answers and encouragement. Of course, those same innocents often do not understand the dangerous nature of the ground they sometimes tread upon.................
quite apart from any dot-or-no-dot discussion: you learn through your eyes also through WATCHING other musicians. I think this is more important than we remember in the age of the CD. A tune you have been taught by a person will in your mind always be associated with that person. That means your inner eye will also foreber show you the body moving in the appropriate "groove", the foot tapping at the appropriate speed, the fingers and arms using a certain technique, the situation in which you learned the tune which will help you to remember a certain mood you associate with the tune and which you will be able to transport through the tune to your listeners. and so on.
there are a lot of Filmed tutorials around on DVD, Internet and so on!
To add a parallel, just been reading a couple of books of folk-tales, one from Brittany and one from Ireland. Both collectors (in the early 1800s) cited causes of the loss of the oral (storytelling) tradition: emigration and *literacy* being the two reasons in common in both books. Maybe it's like the word "or" in the "Eyes or ears" debate: when something's printed it's somehow "out there" in front of us, as opposed to being "in here", inside us. Mina makes a good point above: eyes are for more than just looking at the dots.
"You can never progress in this music without using your ears as much as possible but anyone who thinks written music is not useful is kidding themselves." - Bogman
But it isn’t necessary to play Irish music...Whereas listening is absolutely necessary.
Everyone should be learning to pick up tunes by ear. If you dont you will never get up to speed.
Agreed, Mark. A better header would be "Ears AND eyes (but ears first and foremost)."
Bogman, I don't think anyone *is* saying that written music isn't useful. Useful, yes, but (as bb says) not necessary for this music. And perhaps a distraction, if you want to play this music in sessions, in a way that is and sounds traditional.
Yes Will and bb, but my point was "You can never progress in this music without using your ears as much as possible". I wouls say written music is an extra.
Yes bogman - I understand what you are saying. But i dont actually agree. I dont think you actually need sheet music at all. I think you can be an amazing musician without it (I know lots) If you want to use sheet music then fine. But I dont believe it makes you a better trad musician to have it in any way. Just my opinion of course.
For several years, I used to play piano at a local blues jam. Two of the regulars at this blues jam were two semi-retired professional musicians who had never learned to read music. I learned a lot from both listening to and making music with both of these men.
After reading down to here as fast as I could, my questions have not been answered:
- Is amhrán tone-deaf? That would make it harder to render a tune he might have (or think he has) in his head on his instrument. I would never suggest learning any melody-based folk music from a sheet. Those who composed those Irish tunes did so directly on their instruments. You want to get close to your instrument and feel its possibilities. That way tunes should never present a problem. You don't have to know what notes your playing but you have to know where you can find them to play! In other words, you have to be able to pick out the tune by ear! For the tone-deaf another way might have to be found.
Writing tunes down is what you do after you've learned them, so as to be able to conjure them up out of the bottomless pit in your memory. Unless you have them all on CD, of course. Ideally you have a conjuring system in your head. The ancient Greeks (and the Druids?) told long stories in verse. They learned and remembered the course of their song or poem as if they were walking down a road - visually but not with symbols like letters and drawn notes.
- What was amrhán playing on the mandolin before he started Irish? (He seems to have left this thread for others to grind over.)
No bb, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I didn't say you need sheet music. I didn't say it makes you a better trad musician. How can you see that in my posts.
For example - when i was starting out there was a beginners session followed by a more advanced session. People in the beginner session bought their music stands and sat around playing tunes off sheet music. The advanced session was none of that. Me and two friends who were starting out didn't go to the beginner session but rather sat back under the radar of the advance session. 13 years later, me and my two friends are now running sessions etc and the fellows from the beginner sessions are still sitting there in beginner sessions with their music stands.
I merely pointed out that you don't need sheet music for trad..thats all
sheet music is simply useful because it helps to preserve and transmit music or a musical idea very quickly (without needing time to learning it / playing it out for someone). these days this use has been replaced throught the many possiblities of digital recording and sending music throught the internet. still this sometimes doesn't work for technical reasons, its a bit like newspapers vs the internet.
so the use of sheet music has been clear to people for hundreds of centuries. there is no need for a debate - sheet music is a way of capturing and transmitting music, never completely, but simply. it isn't more, but no less, than that.
Ears or eyes?
Ears or eyes?
Unable to imagine myself playing by ear, I started to learn the dots some months ago. I'm getting on fine (if slowly).
When listening to the music, it's almost impossible to separate the notes when they're played in any way fast.
Then a thought came to me last week: am I wasting my time learning the dots? Maybe I should just slow down some CD tracks and try to follow them instead. Problem is that I can't match the notes on a CD to the notes on my mandolin.
I've found that the dots give me a better understanding of the structure of the music. However, using an American mandolin book might not be the best for playing ITM.
What should I do? Should I just stick with both approaches?
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by amhrán
Re: Ears or eyes?
Well, you certainly picked a can of worms here. This debate has been raging on since the early days of this site, and most of us are tired of arguing it.
But FWIW, I'll give you my impression. If you work at listening, you will get better at it. And to play Irish music well, most people agree that you have to listen to a ton of it. Sheet music can give you some basic notes, but it can't give you the Irish feel. I learn by ear exclusively, and use dots as an occasional reference to remember how a tune starts. But if you rely on the dots, they will become a crutch, and you won't learn the music in such a way that you can manipulate it with rhythmic and melodic variations, which is one of the best parts of playing this music, IMO.
It helps if you have other players around you that can teach you tunes by ear at a speed that you can handle when you're first starting out.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Ears or eyes?
You are not wasting your time learning the dots. A GOOD musician will explore all avenues of learning. Do what feels right to you and enjoy yourself.
Mary
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Antikhntr
Re: Ears or eyes?
The more time you devote to listening ~ the more you will hear.
The more time you spend with sheet music . . . the more time you spend on sheet music.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
I will agree with Mary that learning to read music is a useful tool. And from your bio, amhrán, it appears that you listen to a lot of Irish music, so that's a good start.
But when you're first starting out playing, your focus is all on the notes. And the notes are only part of the equation. You also need to learn to make it sound right, with the right rhythm, ornamentation, and lift. So if you use the dots to learn a tune, your goal should be to get the tune in your head so that you can play it without the dots as a reference. At which time, you can then start focusing on the feel as well as the notes. And for me, when I try to learn from the dots, I don't retain the tune as well as when I learn it by ear.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Ears or eyes?
I'd say stick with both. You will never regret having learned to read music; you will always find it helpful. But listen as often as you can to as much as you can. Yes, the recordings fly by at warp speed, but soon you will hear patterns. Try singing along with the recordings, one small part at a time, then working out the notes on your instrument.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Ears or eyes?
I can't believe I've gone away for a fortnight to come back to this ...
However, in the spirit of being helpful, yes this subject is indeed fraught with controversy, as the Reverend suggested above. Here's the gist of the controversy: there are some - myself included - who would argue that, *especially* in the early stages, it is best to learn to pick the tunes up, by ear, at speed. We would say something along the lines that even slowing it down won't help you, because you won't get the right feel for the tune. And the dots will give you nothing at all. If you do pick up the tune(s) by ear, you will then not only have learnt a tune or two, but have picked up a very valuable tool which will stay with you forever.
It seems impossible at first, but if you stick at it, forcing yourself to learn by ear will come quicker than you would think. Try starting by playing the tune, on the CD, over and over, until you can get it playing in your head. Then trying singing it / lilting it to yourself. Then try it on your instrument. Laborious at first - pretty easy after a while, and *so* worth it.
On the other side of the argument, it is indeed very useful to have the skill to read - and write - the dots. Don't let people tell you it isn't.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Ears or eyes?
In order to broaden your repertoire there is nothing more direct than the ability to sight read musical notation on the spot.
Reading can take you through various genres. The usefulness of notation is also one of the reasons experienced readers are (sometimes) reluctant to try something without a hard copy.
Consider also that your ears are amazing sensors of music. The original in fact.
Aside from session tunes musical notation will serve you well. Now session tunes, specifically, I would 'look' at that with my ears. As you learn to read music please do nt say, "I use the dots because I cannot always trust my ears." If one does not come to trust ones' ears might miss the most wonderful thing about connecting with music. About connecting with other players..
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
Holy crap. I can't believe I just read a pile of responses on this subject that read "both are good". It's incredible, and yet rational.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by reenactor
*
sorry for the typos. I think you will be getting more opinions.
Since Reverend said he looked at your bio I had to peek.
I have to tell you i often listen to Liam O'Flynn's piping on Planxty's "Well Below the Valley" I just cannot get enough.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
Random_notes wrote: "In order to broaden your repertoire there is nothing more direct than the ability to sight read musical notation on the spot."
Too often, this sort of flippant, absolutist generalization skews the conversations here. Of course there are more direct ways to play music--listening and playing by ear chief among them, as Random himself goes on to say in the rest of his post.
Yes, being able to make music from the dots is useful, but it's hardly the most direct route. Music is aural. Try playing it without any ears.
For cat's sake, think before you hit post.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Please reenactor it is just who logs on at this time of day.
You don't think the pure drops are glued to their computer. Do you?
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
I was generalizing.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
Well, generalizing in absolute terms is rarely helpful.
Better to let Benhall's advice stand: learn to listen, use and hone your aural faculties. And meanwhile learn to read and write the dots.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
See the discussion I started a few pages back about a player at a session I run. I would suggest that you learn by ear, listen. It's ok to supplement by using dots, but once you start to pick the tunes up by ear, you will find you don't have to remember the dots or play with them. Also, as you get to know the melodies by ear, you will find that it gives you some guidance as far as how you play the tunes.
I vary my chords based on the melody and my mood and what I am hearing. I don't always play the tune according to the chords that seem to make sense. As someone here said, there are no right chords.
If you had to choose between listening and following the dots--no doubt listening is the way to go. It may take a little longer, but a year down the road, you will be a much better player for sticking it out. It is not easy, but now I can figure out the key and find the chords quite quickly to tunes I have never heard before.
That's my 2-cents worth!
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Ears or eyes?
One thing that makes this thread different from most of the others is that the poster grew up in Donegal and has been listening to Irish music for several decades.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Ears or eyes?
Ears.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Ears or eyes?
If the poster grew up in Donegal, he should know that ears are the way to go.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Ears or eyes?
Which suggests that the poster will likely have less trouble sorting things out by ear, as well as having at least a glimmer of what the inky dots should sound like.
And that's just another way of saying that listening--approaching music aurally--is the primary way in to the music. Dots serve a purpose, but using your ears is more important.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Not that using our ears and eyes is mutually exclusive, eh? Or that our brains are too small to learn and hone two skills at once.
As much as possible, rely on your ears to learn and play this music. And learn to read and write the dots--that's another useful skill. Sometimes, the dots will even help you sort out something your ears missed. Use that information to help you listen more closely, with greater understanding. Nothing wrong with that approach--best of both worlds.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Amhran, find yourself a teacher or mentor, someome who will play the tunes slowly for you, phrase by phrase. Someone immersed in this music who can show you how it works, teach you about timing, phrasing, articulation, and nyah. Find a mandolin or banjo player, or anyone on any instrument whose playing you admire and aspire to. Then soak it up.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Funny cartoons, amhrán, and cool photos. I don't think that the standing stone would have anything to do with the Normans. There is no evidence that they had any connection. Most standing stones are very much older, stone age, bronze age, which means they date from 3 to 5000 years ago. That's the first time I've come across a tradition of painting one white. Quite amazing, for those, like me, who are interested in ancient culture. You might like to post the photo here. The idea is to get as complete a record as possible.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/search.php?query=&country=2&county=7&type=stories
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Ears or eyes?
Amhran - I think you've gotten quite a few useful posts here, and you're tremendously blessed in having grown up around the music. I only have one little anecdote to add. A group of musicians I know started up a beginners session about 5 years ago. None of the twelve folks had any real background in the music and came to it in the middle age of their lives. They all initially started out with what ever sheet music they could find to start their journey. Now, 5 years later, those in the group who learned to use their ears and immersed themselves in recordings of Irish music are now playing hundreds of tunes at whatever session they like. However, there are still a few from that same group who continue to rely on sheet music and can barely string set together without having to flip the pages. They are still laboring over the same batch of tunes with very little growth as players.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Ears or eyes?
Learning by ear seems impossible at first, but I have to say, four and a bit years down the road, it does get easier. But I still use the dots to speed up the leaning of tunes I can already 'hear in my head'. (Though I have to say, tunes learned by ear do stay in my fingers better.)
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by disillusioned
Re: Ears or eyes?
Learning how to read and write sheet music has actually had an odd benefit for me. Some tunes, you might notice, have some weird beats, extra beats, a series of runs, odd structure of whatever kind; it helps me tremendously, AFTER learning such a tune, to straighten my head out by writing it down and counting it out. Can work wonders on some mazurkas >_>
--DtM
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Ears or eyes?
I was lucky enough to have teachers who placed an equally strong emphasis on both ear training and learning how to sight read. Both of these skills have been very useful to me whenever and wherever I play music with other musicians.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Ears or eyes?
You should stick with both that's what I've done and I've improved scarily quickly in the last year. Granted, I'm young (18) so things come quicker, but learning by ear and with music with a good balance can work wonders.
I tend to like finding a tune in a book, playing it through as it is written, then going along to a session and asking the musicians if they know it and if they do know it, play it for me. Then by listening to that, I get a good appreciation of how it should go and I pick it up fast coz my fingers are already familiar with it due to the time taken playing from the book.
If none of the musicians can play it, I look on the internet for a recording of it, simple.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Ears or eyes?
I'll content that any trad musician worth his/her salt can play and learn tunes by ear. This means that you MUST learn how to pick up tunes by ear at some point, or you'll be considerably handicapped in the trad music environment.
That said, it's obviously up to you to decide how you will to go about getting into the trad music environment.
You could learn tunes off of sheet music, which would likely be easier at first, but wouldn't really help you develop the all-important ear. Or you could take a whack at learning by ear, which will be slower going at first, but will help you develop your ear the most.
The biggest risk of learning off of sheet music is that you'll think you're doing better at it than you really are. Sheet music is a rough-cut approximation of what people actually play (much like a paint-by-number kit is a rough approximation of what people might actually paint), and without developing your ear you won't hear what you're missing.
If you (or anybody else) need any other evidence, try this exercise:
1) Pick a recording of your favorite musician playing a tune, any tune.
2) find sheet music for that tune, and learn the tune from the sheet music (memorizing it is absolutely critical. If you can't play a tune purely from memory, you haven't learned it).
3) Compare how your favorite musician plays this tune against what you learned off the paper. Try to find EVERY place they play a different note from what you learned off the paper, and learn to play their note(s) instead. It helps if you play along with the recording.
4) realize that for the energy you just expended in step 3, you could probably have saved time by skipping step 2 entirely.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Ears or eyes?
oh, and there's one more step:
5) Look at how much difference there was between what you learned off the sheet music and what you heard your favorite musician play. Note that no piece of that difference was anywhere to be found in the sheet music you used in step 2. Also note that if you had not done step 3, you might not have noticed that difference at all.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Ears or eyes?
Hilarious Georgi, good stuff.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Ears or eyes?
Yup - ears. As georgi says - any trad musician worth his/her salt can play and learn tunes by ear.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
With all due respect Will I believe you are misrepresenting my post.
You obviously are more knowledgable about music than me. I do not think I posted in a flippant manner. You may be interpreting my phrase, "the most direct way . . ." as being equal to the best approach. or is it absolutist. I have observed sight readers who "cover several genrese in one sitting." Some are very good at faking it. That is not the same as saying they mastered even one genre by this method. Likely they retain little from the experience.
Once again ears are all important within the aural tradition. & in the same breath; far be it fro me to discourage anyone from kearning what I have done for years; reading & writing notation.
Thank you very muxh.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
*
Nor is it absolutist
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
Random, you said "nothing is more direct than the ability to sight read musical notation on the spot."
Sorry, but that "nothing" makes it an absolute statement. And blatantly wrong-headed, since ears are always "more direct" than eyes when it comes to playing music, as you've alluded to yourself.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
This is the truth now, most every singley amazing musician I know learns tunes by ear..no dots. Take what you will out of that...but its just the way it is.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
I do ot intend to argue . . . so with the utmost respect;direct alludes to 'momentary ~in one sitting.
I did ot qualify the method as desirable. it is merely utilitarian not aesthetic.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
*single* actually
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
*
the n's do not seem to work
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
Random, I got your meaning when you first posted it. But you're mistaken. The "most direct" way to play in the moment, across any genre, is by ear. Sheet music may help a player "fake it" well, but that's all it will be--faking.
A good aural player will be playing the music.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Will I finally understand what you are saying. Pardon me of if I am not good with symantics or physiology or physics.
Conceded in a pedantic sense,'Nothing is more direct than the ears."
P.S. are you a part time dictator? Now that is flippant but not absolutist.
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
?
YOU GOT MY MEANING?
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
"Sheet music may help a player fake it..."
Hmmm, perhaps that is why they call them "Fake Books" right so CPT?
Although I do think you're being a bit stern on yer man Random Notes, Schoolmaster....
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Ears or eyes?
Actually, JNE, remember right, Random is a she (and I got that wrong above).
I don't think it's just semantics. When Random wrote above that "nothing is more direct" than the dots, she clearly wasn't saying what she meant. I'm just glad we got that cleared up before llig came back from his red card holiday....
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
erm, I meant: "...if I remember right...."
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
D'oh! Apologies for the gender confusion Random. Why was Llig sent off the pitch with a Red card?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Ears or eyes?
He's been returned to the active roster, JNE. I think his offense was the usual inability to suffer fools gladly....
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
That's his job though! Ah well, glad he's back on the squad, it'll be nice to have him back in time for the big match against that jazz music forum.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Ears or eyes?
You certainly don't need sight reading skills if all you want to play is ITM. No one bothers to notate all the nuances, so even with the ability, you don't have any advantage. If you want to learn how to reproduce the style there is no way getting around listening to it and yourself as you evolve.
Even so, there are those that only hear what they want to hear. We all have our individual noise filters to deal with complexity we aren't prepared to process. There is a lot of subtlety going on and it takes repetition and active attention on your part to pick it out. I don't think it matters if you grew up with the stuff playing every night in your home and back yard. There's plenty of music I heard regularly growing up in a family of professional musicians that I didn't really "hear" until I started trying to play it myself. Now that I'm not playing professionally any more and settling down more with people that are still learning a lot for the first time, I can see the same pattern as the lights slowly turn on for them.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by monkey440
Re: Ears or eyes?
Good point. Really attentive listening is more than simply having tunes going in the background. I'm amazed how often people in sessions seem to be doing the latter....
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
You are an interesting lot on this board. On the one hand you seem to want to encourage new people to take up Irish trad to ensure the tradition lives on; on the other, when a new contributor comes forward with a perfectly reasonable question, a good number of you can barely stifle a yawn before deigning to offer an answer. Many of you clearly have a great deal of knowledge to share but gleaning this knowledge by reading through past threads is a bit like listening to the CD rather than getting in a having a play. So which is it guys - are we newbies just propping up the bar or are we welcome in the session?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
I'll be honest, and everyone here know what I'm like anyway so its nothing new. Newbies are welcome absolutely...but only if they have a bit of cop on, don't be coming in to a session well over your head and thrash away wrecking it for everyone. And when people say things like 'you must learn to pick up tunes by hearing' Then go out and learn to pick up tunes by ear. If it isn't the answer you're looking for (not you personally clogstepping) then why ask the question in the first place?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
bb that's useful advice for both real and virtual worlds. And yeah - if the advice is go out and listen, let's hope that's taken that on board - but there's also much to be learned from others about their experiences of picking up tunes by ear. I try to do both - it's always interesting to see where the dots vary from what I think I've heard. The danger with the dots lies in my natural tendency to laziness - it find it easier to rely on the dots rather than committing the tune to memory accurately. I'm working on it. So I've been reading this thread to see who else suffers from innate laziness. Hoo!
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
(Yawn) It's just that we've been over and over this, for, like, seven years now (ho hum).
And nothing personal against amhran, but on the face of it, asking whether to use your ears or eyes to play music is a silly question, no? I mean, you wouldn't log on to www.oilpainting.org and ask whether it's better to use your ears or eyes to learn to paint.
So let's see...should we use our nostrils or taste buds to properly learn this music?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
It might be easier to learn easy tunes by ear at first rather than difficult tunes, so maybe train the ears by learning on easy tunes. I don't know, I don't know - that's just what I think I found in retrospect. If you're at an advanced session though, many of the tunes might be difficult intricate ones, so learning by ear might seem a bit daunting in the early stages - like for a few years! Just my opinion, but what would I know.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Ears or eyes?
Persevere with it though. Yep, persevere.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Ears or eyes?
Interesting point there Will - taste buds may not be essential but I reckon you could make an argument that making music (or art) requires total sensory engagement. And if there's Guinness involved well, yes, tastebuds come into it too
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
"should we use our nostrils or taste buds to properly learn this music?"
Oh Will, you've really opened up a can o' worms here. Before the debate rages, and Jeremy deletes that post, can we agree that the answer is clearly, "BOTH!"
Nostrils to sniff the Guinness, and taste buds to taste it.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by browndog
Re: Ears or eyes?
I forgot about the nostrils. Umm, and maybe eyes as well. To get a good look at it. One of life's great delights - watching a Guinness poured.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
...and I hold myself as an example of how a truly hopeless case can improve at learning by ear. It's taken years, and sometimes a tune can take an hour-a-night for a week or more -- but with a deft touch on the pause and rewind buttons, I can now accurately suss out almost any tune, no matter how fast it is played, from a recording.
It's never easy, but always worth it.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by browndog
Re: Ears or eyes?
clogstepping, I can understand how it might look that we're a bit disinterested with this particular question, but as Will CPT has pointed out, this topic has been discussed ad nauseam, about every two weeks. It often becomes a bit heated, and winds up the board a bit. Arguments, people getting banned, etc. It really is probably the most discussed topic on this forum. If only one thread in a hundred has been about this topic, then it's *literally* been discussed on average every two weeks over the last 7 years.
But your analogy of a session is a good one. And I would consider the response by people here during this thread to be the analogy of the beginner coming into a session who only knows three tunes, Spootiskerry, The Kesh Jig, and the Butterfly. Not that those are bad tunes, necessarily, but people are sometimes tired of playing them. We smiled, and played along by answering the question the best we could, because we *do* want to encourage new people. But we couldn't stifle a bit of a yawn during the process.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Ears or eyes?
Thanks Reverend. A kind reply.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
Wht does it take to find yourself banned?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
Ive not been banned before but am sure ive come pretty close, I got two emails from Jeremy telling me to stop what I was doing a couple of weeks ago
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
generally, the cardinal rule here is to "be civil". If you do something that Jeremy (the website owner) considers to be on the wrong side of civility, you'll get anything from a warning, to suspension, or banning.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Ears or eyes?
Rats! And I missed it, bb ...
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Ears or eyes?
browndog, you ain't got there yet. When you do, it will be like a light flashing on, and you'll think "Ah, so *that's* where I was going wrong".
Try this:
* don't use the pause button until the end of the track
* play the whole track over and over until you have it going on, automatically, in your head
* sing the tune
* play the tune
When you've been able to do that once, it will never leave you. And I promise, you'll like it.
Mind you, as others have indicated, CDs are not the *best* way. Real live people are best.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Ears or eyes?
Hello benhall.1,
Yes, you are so right. I failed to mention that I do all of that, too.
And since my primary form of commuting to/from work is bicycle, I often like to listen to a new tune a gillion times until it loops incessantly through my head, and then pedal to the cadence of the tune while lilting it along the road. Loads of fun -- and really helps with learning the tune when I actually do sit down with the recorder or iPod and work out the notes.
But you are right that I "ain't got there yet" because even though the tune is easier to learn/play/retain when I do this, it still requires a quick thumb on the pause/rewind to pluck out the notes.
So your final step, "* play the tune" is still something for me to strive for.
Did I mention I was a "truly hopeless case"?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by browndog
Re: Ears or eyes?
Being able to read dots is a great time-saver as long as you don't rely on it.
For instance, without picking up an instrument, I can look at the sheetmusic of a tune, flick through it in my head and immediately decide -
yes, I like that tune,
or
no, Im not keen on it
yes, if someone played it, I could join in with it
or
that tune is worth saving on my pc to practise and eventually add to a set.
It works both ways - if you can flick through the dots and hear the tune, with practise, you should be able to hear a tune and write down the dots. A great time-saver for anyone who is a tune-magpie (like me).
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Ears or eyes?
Hey, browndog, you don't sound hopeless to me at all. All it takes is perseverance, and you seem to have that in spades.
Also, you're a cyclist, so you can't be all bad!
geoffwright, I've done that 'flicking through the tune to see if I like it'. I must have done it thousands and thousands of times. I'm almost always wrong, in that some tune I've dismissed, from reading the dots, turns out to be lovely and a 'must-learn' when played by some musician I happen to bump into in some session somewhere.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Ears or eyes?
Apologies for not having checked up on this before posting. I'd forgotten how much of a hot potato the subject was and that there had been hundreds of posts about it.
In answer to Will CPT, I wasn't 'asking whether to use your ears or eyes to play music'. I was merely asking whether there was any benefit in learning the dots.
I do know that learning by ear is the ideal method but that method is easy for those of you who are long-established and experienced musicians.
When you're listening to the likes of Paddy Glackin or Mairtín O'Connor playing at full flight, it's impossible to make out three notes played in quick succession in the space of a second.
Still, I'll give it a go and try to play by ear while still learning how to read the dots.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions. I promise not to bring it up again!
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by amhrán
Re: Ears or eyes?
It's good that this subject comes up often. Yes, it can get boring, repetitive, stale and confrontational, but it's an important topic, especially with newcomers joining us all the time. Besides, if you don't care for it, the next time it comes up again (and you know it wlll) you can always pick up your instrument and have a reel or two.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Ears or eyes?
Ah, the essence of teaching, yes? Answering the same flippin' question over and over and over again without going mad.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Ears or eyes?
A lot of good recordings are so fast that it is really difficult to get more than a few notes. There are some players that play tunes at a speed suitable for a learner to pick them up. Martin Hayes and May Macnamara spring to mind. There are plenty of Irish music websites that have slow version of tunes for learners e.g http://irishflute.podbean.com/
Personally I find a slowdowner program useful for picking up the notes on a fast recording, but once I learn them I go back and practise the tune at speed to get the beat.
I can sight read but I find that it is of very limited use with this music.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by harry
Re: Ears or eyes?
Even though my first music teacher (my mother) taught me to play the piano by learning to read sheet music or the "dots", I am also very glad that I managed to learn how to play music by ear as well.
Whenever I look at sheet music, I don't think of dots--instead, the notes on the paper remind me of golf clubs.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Ears or eyes?
LOL, amhran, if what you were really after was the pros and cons of learning to read the dots, then why title your thread "Ears or eyes?"???
No worries bringing it up again.
Off the top of my head, a few benefits of understanding written notation (dots, tab, and/or abcs):
- You can learn to hear with your eyes, so the dots become just another way to learn by ear.
- Ink on paper is a handy memory aid, a storage device for tunes.
- It can help you understand the structure and theory behind tunes, and music in general.
- It's a handy way to talk with others about the music. ABCs are great for emailing with friends around the globe.
- If you're highly visual (as I am), you can "see" the music in your head, as needed, to help you remember how a tune starts, or call up that missing B part.
- You can use written notation to teach others, if they want written notation.
- You can surf all the printed tunes available in books and online to add to your repertoire.
And so on. Listening is best. But the above bennies are good, too, and learning to "sight hear" really isn't that hard.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Learning by ear is hard at first, but its like anything - practise makes perfect. Its not something that just comes automatically to people. Its an effort - just like everything else in teh world. God I remember when I was first learing to pick up a tune by ear, one tune - 4 days and constant rewinding for hours and hours each day. Now I can pick up a tune in sometimes 5 minutes.I agree with Harry about getting a slowdown software - Maybe the Amazing Slowdowner or something.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
I learned to learn by ear mostly in real time while listening to tunes on Thistle and Shamrock on the radio. Wasn't easy at first, but it helped no end when I started going to sessions.
The best slow-downer software is in our own minds. You can play a tune back at any speed, at any pitch, in any combination of those (and other) parameters.
Also, if you're new to your instrument, learning tunes by ear will be hard becuase you won't know where to find the notes. Once you're really at home on your instrument, the tunes sprout up under your fingers much more readily.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
That's so poetic - "the tunes sprout up under your fingers". Love it, Will CPT.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Ears or eyes?
Learning by ear was difficult for me at first also but by now it almost second nature to me because I have been doing it for so many years.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Ears or eyes?
both approaches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSy9W3gIhnQ
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Ears or eyes?
Eyes or ears? Eyes OR ears?
If I could only have one or the other then obviously it would be ears. If I was lucky enough to have both, which I have, then I would endeavor to use both.
You can never progress in this music without using your ears as much as possible but anyone who thinks written music is not useful is kidding themselves.
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by bogman
Re: Ears or eyes?
Clogstepper raises a good point above, even though us old timers have discussed some of these issues ad nauseum, we need to be sensitive to the fact that we have newcomers among us, wide eyed and innocent, who need answers and encouragement. Of course, those same innocents often do not understand the dangerous nature of the ground they sometimes tread upon.................
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Ears or eyes?
quite apart from any dot-or-no-dot discussion: you learn through your eyes also through WATCHING other musicians. I think this is more important than we remember in the age of the CD. A tune you have been taught by a person will in your mind always be associated with that person. That means your inner eye will also foreber show you the body moving in the appropriate "groove", the foot tapping at the appropriate speed, the fingers and arms using a certain technique, the situation in which you learned the tune which will help you to remember a certain mood you associate with the tune and which you will be able to transport through the tune to your listeners. and so on.
there are a lot of Filmed tutorials around on DVD, Internet and so on!
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Mina the Fiddler
Re: Ears or eyes?
To add a parallel, just been reading a couple of books of folk-tales, one from Brittany and one from Ireland. Both collectors (in the early 1800s) cited causes of the loss of the oral (storytelling) tradition: emigration and *literacy* being the two reasons in common in both books. Maybe it's like the word "or" in the "Eyes or ears" debate: when something's printed it's somehow "out there" in front of us, as opposed to being "in here", inside us. Mina makes a good point above: eyes are for more than just looking at the dots.
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Ears or eyes?
One of the few ways in which a blind person could make a living used to be playing and/or singing music.
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Ears or eyes?
"You can never progress in this music without using your ears as much as possible but anyone who thinks written music is not useful is kidding themselves." - Bogman
But it isn’t necessary to play Irish music...Whereas listening is absolutely necessary.
Everyone should be learning to pick up tunes by ear. If you dont you will never get up to speed.
# Posted on August 7th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
Agreed, Mark. A better header would be "Ears AND eyes (but ears first and foremost)."
Bogman, I don't think anyone *is* saying that written music isn't useful. Useful, yes, but (as bb says) not necessary for this music. And perhaps a distraction, if you want to play this music in sessions, in a way that is and sounds traditional.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Ears or eyes?
Yes Will and bb, but my point was "You can never progress in this music without using your ears as much as possible". I wouls say written music is an extra.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by bogman
Re: Ears or eyes?
Yes bogman - I understand what you are saying. But i dont actually agree. I dont think you actually need sheet music at all. I think you can be an amazing musician without it (I know lots) If you want to use sheet music then fine. But I dont believe it makes you a better trad musician to have it in any way. Just my opinion of course.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
For several years, I used to play piano at a local blues jam. Two of the regulars at this blues jam were two semi-retired professional musicians who had never learned to read music. I learned a lot from both listening to and making music with both of these men.
# Posted on August 9th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Ears or eyes?
After reading down to here as fast as I could, my questions have not been answered:
- Is amhrán tone-deaf? That would make it harder to render a tune he might have (or think he has) in his head on his instrument. I would never suggest learning any melody-based folk music from a sheet. Those who composed those Irish tunes did so directly on their instruments. You want to get close to your instrument and feel its possibilities. That way tunes should never present a problem. You don't have to know what notes your playing but you have to know where you can find them to play! In other words, you have to be able to pick out the tune by ear! For the tone-deaf another way might have to be found.
Writing tunes down is what you do after you've learned them, so as to be able to conjure them up out of the bottomless pit in your memory. Unless you have them all on CD, of course. Ideally you have a conjuring system in your head. The ancient Greeks (and the Druids?) told long stories in verse. They learned and remembered the course of their song or poem as if they were walking down a road - visually but not with symbols like letters and drawn notes.
- What was amrhán playing on the mandolin before he started Irish? (He seems to have left this thread for others to grind over.)
C. Nicolas
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by C. Nicolas
Re: Ears or eyes?
No bb, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I didn't say you need sheet music. I didn't say it makes you a better trad musician. How can you see that in my posts.
I said that written music is useful. Which it is.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by bogman
Re: Ears or eyes?
"but anyone who thinks written music is not useful is kidding themselves"- bogman
No Bogman - you dont seem to understand what I'm saying.
I dont think sheet music is very useful. Sure some people use it well- but in my humble opinion it hinders alot of people more than it helps.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Ears & eyes & skin & tongue, & nose . . .
What should I do? Should I just stick with both approaches?
# Posted on August 4th 2008 by amhrán
Just a reminder of the original question.
Simple answer: use your ears for music & do not fear what you can glean with your other senses.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Ears or eyes?
So you reckon sheet music is not useful to anyone playing trad bb. Interesting point of view.
# Posted on August 12th 2008 by bogman
Re: Ears or eyes?
I said *some* people use it well, Many don't.
For example - when i was starting out there was a beginners session followed by a more advanced session. People in the beginner session bought their music stands and sat around playing tunes off sheet music. The advanced session was none of that. Me and two friends who were starting out didn't go to the beginner session but rather sat back under the radar of the advance session. 13 years later, me and my two friends are now running sessions etc and the fellows from the beginner sessions are still sitting there in beginner sessions with their music stands.
I merely pointed out that you don't need sheet music for trad..thats all
# Posted on August 12th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Ears or eyes?
sheet music is simply useful because it helps to preserve and transmit music or a musical idea very quickly (without needing time to learning it / playing it out for someone). these days this use has been replaced throught the many possiblities of digital recording and sending music throught the internet. still this sometimes doesn't work for technical reasons, its a bit like newspapers vs the internet.
so the use of sheet music has been clear to people for hundreds of centuries. there is no need for a debate - sheet music is a way of capturing and transmitting music, never completely, but simply. it isn't more, but no less, than that.
# Posted on August 13th 2008 by Mina the Fiddler