Hello, I have made a couple of posts on here before. This my first post of a discussion It is probably quite controversial, but I think it needs to be talked about. I have only ever seen 2 black people at sessions. I mean african or afro-carribean. I have seen people from the ethnic groups, asian (or south asian, ie indian/pakistani) and east asian (chinese and japanese etc.) but only ever two african descent people. one was at a session I went to last saturday, a lass who was singing/playing guitar, and she made a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way, of some standard Irish songs, put a bit of real "soul" into the Fields of Athenrye.And it was very impressive, not being one for "fusion" but this really did work.
I think this will become a bigger issue as Ireland itself is experiencing a massive influx of not only Polish and other eastarn European nationals but also Nigerian and other african people. Well, maybe, like latin American music, their own culture is so strong, they don't need to come out of their own vernaculer. And that would be a shame because I personally like the various african and latin american ...AND chinese and indian etc forms of music. I would hate traditional music to be a caucasion only persuit but I can't understand why African and Afro Carribean people are not visible. Where we live in London (South of the river) particularly Brixton, the dominant ethnic group is black, mostly afro-carribean. I wonder if it is that irish music is just regarded as so "uncool" to be taken seriously?
I'm trying to work out who you are, Karate. I have a fair idea, as I know a fair few players in South London, but I'm not certain. Anyway, I generally consent with the questions you are asking. I've seen that lady at Tír na nOg in Wandsworth, if that's the same one. Forget all the solicitor stuff, it's a fact. Black people are under represented. My view is that this is music to share, not to hide away and worship and cherish. And not only that it can be enriched by sharing, eg I believe the banjo was originally an African instrument. Anyway thanks for your comments Karate
Hiya Danny! Great to make contact with you - I really like your flute playing, and where do you get all those tunes from? I just love it when you start up a set of tunes then the whole pub goes quiet. Better than they deserve.
I live in Providence, Rhode Island, around 30% black, a large population for a New England city. I have the same questions about why there aren't many blacks in other activities that I like: skiing, hiking, camping, climbing. As far as a Boston Irish pub (I can't speak for your area) , there has been a history of tension between blacks and whites, especially from the civil rights days here in states. They may explain some of it.
Oh shucks. I'm just an ould crap that's been blawin' away for years, no big deal. In fact I'm still learning.
I'm STILL trying to work out who are though, but I have to say, thanks for the compliments. When I *do* suss your real life personna I'll big you up beyond reality as well
The banjo is indeed African in origin, later incorporated by Irish American musicians during the heyday of the minstrel shows.
Karate I'm just curious as to "why this needs to be talked about." Are you looking to recruit people of color to your session? Are you concerned that this music is unwelcoming to ethnic minorities? All sorts of people from various ethnic backgrounds discover and enjoy this music. It's all about exposure. In the U.S. these days it's more rare to play with a person who actually has any Irish or Scots roots or any previous familiarity to this genre. I've played with all sorts of folks, including a few African Americans and most did not come to this style of music until middle age, and from a completely different cultural background.
I don't know the situation in the states, but I wonder sometimes is there a case of - for want of a better word, or term, - reverse racism. Blacks assume whites are going to be racist against them, so they become racist in their asumptions about whites. Their racism is that of whites being racist against them! Just my theory. Burn me if you need to..
I new this woold engender all the polically correct responses. I dont care. This is a true and real issue. Where we live it ...dose.... need to be talked about. It's a real issue. My wish is that our music is for everyone, no matter what their coolour. Not trying to recruit specificly balck or green or purple people. I just wish you'd not try to pick nonexistant holes in my agument. The simple fact is that afro people are under represented at sesions in this part of London. I'm just curiuos as to why
I'm in no position to burn you karate - I would just perhaps suggest that fear of rejection and lack of interest are better terms than reverse racism. Someone above wanted to know why they don't see more people of color on ski slopes or out camping. The list of reasons for that range from lack of opportunity to outright fear. I had an African American friend tell me once that "Black folks don't surf." I shamed him for allowing negative stereotypes and fear to limit his view of the world. On the other side of the coin I played with a black bodhran player from Baltimore a few years ago. After some exposure to Irish music by friends, he fell in love with it and took it up. He decided he didn't give a damn if any of his peers mocked him for playing the music (who among us hasn't reached that conclusion!)
Bottom line is once we strip away the barriers of tribe and self-imposed walls of "self," people can and do fall in love with this music.
My peers who are not into Irish traditional music admire my love of the tunes.
It is my friends who do play Irish music that always give me a hard time. It is some quirkiness.
I´ve just posted a reply to this thread, but can´t see it? Anyways I´m black and think that Irish traditional music is very, very cool. I´ve been going to Willie Week and playing in sessions since 1996. I´m English and live in Sweden. We´ve been going to Ireland every year, Clare, Sligo and down to Kerry, playing in sessions everywhere. I play a set of uilleann pipes by Dave Williams R.I.P. and I also play the flute. I´ve seen black musicians at Willie Week, mostly fiddlers and Derek from Birmingham who sings and also plays the mandolin. We certianly exist.
Nice one Jusa. But I don't think we've got to Karate's very bottom line. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Nobody's asking black people to become/or adopt the ways of white people any more than blacks are asking whites to take up black lifestyles (although many do). I think Karate has a fair point in highlighting this issue.
Karate Wocky Tocky.....
Maybe they just don't like the music? Do you and your friends go to, for instance, reggae or bangra nights "south of the river" in London?
I understand that some people will do a double take when I turn up at a session in Ireland, but I´ve never had any bad experiences because I´m black. Irish people/musicians have asked how I became interested in the pipes, I explain then we just get on and play. I´ve found that sometimes North Americans over in Ireland to play can have a bit of an attitude, prehaps hard for them to get their heads around it I don´t know, but who cares. It´s interesting to go outside the box. I´ve Willie McTell, Son House etc. and even Cajun music and english folk music, but it´s hardcore Irish traditional music which is closest to my heart. Especially the pipes and the flute and musicians such as Johnny Doran, Seamus Ennis, Pat Mitchell, Mick Coyne, Leo Rickard, Kitty Hayes & Peter Laban, Peter Horan, Pat Mahon, Marie Ni Ghrada, Catherine McEvoy etc.
KML - perhaps you're right - maybe I did miss Karate's point. I guess for me either a session is welcoming or it isn't. However, I still have a very hard time believing any form of reverse racism is involved.
Steamwilkes - I'm very glad to hear what you say. If that has broken my stereotype, that's good. I have been on this website lurking for quite a long time and this issue has never really been explored. I'll be absolutely frank in saying it really p*sses me off that most sessions here are white only cliques. I'm white, i'm good at maths, but rubbish at spelling, and english, yet I can still express myself. After a fashion. It just all comes out as I think it, and that has its own logic.I get emotionally wound up with these kind of discussions so maybe best that I contribute less.
I personally have never seen a black person at a session, or heard of a black person playing Irish music (except for Steamwilkes just now), but I don't think it's that strange that there should be so few. Most people who play Irish music are either Irish themselves or are of Irish descent. These people are almost invariably white, obviously. Very few people get into the music who have absolutely no Irish (or at least Celtic) background. Of these few, black people are in the minority anyway, because in Europe and North America - where most Irish music is played - there are generally a lot more whites than blacks. A minority of a minority, that's all.
Traditional music is a minority interest. Black people probably don't come across British/Irish traditional music often enough to be moved towards participation.
Molaoch has a point there - I´m black but I´m not interested in rap or reggae, or opera, but I do like country blues, sixties soul music, Irish traditional music, Indian music, modern jazz and Bach. I mean you don´t have to conform to an ethnic stereotype, like what you want. It´s possible to like both Scarlett Johansson and Halle Berry. Why limit yourself?
Joe CSS - of the hundreds of folks who play irish music in Arizona, most are not Irish. At my local, our session host was born in Germany. But yes, in the grand sceme of available music styles, there are few people of color in Irish music.
Karate - I wasn't trying to stir you up. Apologies. I just found the post curious, and brave.
Steamwilkes - We yanks are still trying to wash 400 years of institutionalized racism out of our system. Perhaps if Barack Obama gets elected, a whole new vista of how people perceive each other will be opened.
Karate - don't contribute less, please. You're obviously a person of great passion. We need to hear more from the likes of you
Joe - I have to just simply disagree with you, sorry. Where I live in Lewisham, South London the biggest ethnic group is of course white British but closely followed by Turkish then Afro-Carribean then other African, mostly Nigerian. Lewisham 20 or 30 years ago was considered an Irish area would you believe, and 30-50 years before that a Scottish enclave no less. Anyway, back to your point, the great Zina Lee who doesn't seem to contribute here these days is Chinese American, and a fine player as well, Slainte is Japanese, there are thousands of non-Irish non-British Europeans who a re rgular contributors here, not to mention squillions of others....
In any case, what about mixed race people, half Irish half Carribean. There are a lot of them about you know....
Karate it´s good that you brought this up, this is a disscussion forum after all. As Lowprofile remarked, Irish trad is not a mainstream music form, so exposure is limited. Here in Sweden Swedish trad music is a minority music and Irish trad even more so. Still we are a few enthusiasts who are obsessed. Same with the uilleann pipes, you have to be not a little strange to even consider trying to play such an instrument.
Crikey, I've joked on occasion that pubs should offer free drinks to all *brown-eyed* musicians. It's a dominant gene, and I live and play in a very ethnically diverse city, so that sounds like a losing deal for the pubs, but I'm often the only brown-eyed person holding an instrument.
There are disproportionately few black people at sessions. There are disproportionately many people of Celtic descent at sessions. Is there any ethnic group, other than those whose ancestors come from the British Isles, that's *not* underrepresented at Celtic sessions?
A Black uillean piper resident in Sweden! You certainly know how to be unique, Steamwilkes! Hope you don't mind me saying.
Yes I know this refers to a totally different ethnic group but maybe you'd be interested anyway, I read somewhere that in some parts of Pakistan, in the North I think, they have their own Scottish bagpiping tradition. Dates back to imperial days. And they compose their own tunes. You try telling those boys the pipes aren't Pakistani....they just wouldn't believe you ...for starters....
I don't see it as that surprising or depressing. I just put "African music" into Google images, and guess what? All the faces are black. Is that depressing?
Karate, you say "I'll be absolutely frank in saying it really p*sses me off that most sessions here are white only cliques. " Why does it P you off? I'm sure we're all agreed that there's no racism involved, so what's the problem?
If any non-whites came to the sessions I go to, the main problem would be that the warmth of welcome they'd receive might be embarrassing!
As for why there aren't well-dressed people at sessions....the reason is probably that most of the people at sessions prefer to be comfortable while they are playing music. They dress for comfort instead of trying to be stylish or fashionable.
As for myself, I am stil going to be plain, homely, and unhandsome no matter what I wear so I dress for comfort when I go to a session.
As for the lack of bald people at sessions.....since I am losing my hair, I suppose I could shave my head and bring my electronic keyboard to the session at The Plough & Star in San Francisco (where Phantom Button plays).
There used to be a popular Blues Jam in the bar at a Tex-Mex, Southwestern style restaurant here for many years. Musicians of all types of shapes, sizes, colors, and ethnic groups would show up on a regular basis to participate in these Blues Jams and almost everyone had a good time playing the blues. The musicians who didn't enjoy themselves were usually the ones who didn't think I belonged there and was trying to steal their music because my ancestors didn't come here from Africa. I did my best to ignore them and keep playing the piano.
This might sound a bit silly but Irish trad music perfectly fits the description of that we usually associte with black music - or black musicians anyway., full of soul, individuality, the power in the playing at the moment of the playing, if you know what I mean, the zen moment if you like, the spontaneaty. Oh blast, maybe i wax too lyrical
No. You don't wax too lyrical. That's exactly how I feel the music of the people should be - and it seems to me it should be bringing people together, not separating them on the basis of meaningless accidents of genetics like skin colour.
In America, I can say that I think it is more of a matter of exposure to Irish music. Over here blues and jazz are getting shoved aside for rap, so black musicians I know that are cultivating a cultural heritage are cultivating the music of thier own heritage, which over here is jazz and blues.
I also think eedbjp hit on something about racial tension between the Irish and Blacks over here. Boston is particularly bad and so is Philly. I don't know about New York since I'm not crazy enough to take the subway past 101st street, but its probably more of the same there, too.
fauxcelt, I've had the same experience. I uesd to play with a blues band in the Dallas/ Fort Worth area. When we did the Juneteenth Festival at Fred Moore Park (celebrating the end of slavery in Texas) I was the only white guy there.
it can be a little unnerving to be the only member of your race for miles, so I can see why an Irish session in the white part of town could be given a miss by the local black players.
I knew a black Uilleann and NSP piper/flute player from W. Virginia who used to make the rounds of piping events on the east coast. I met him in St. Louis a couple years running and enjoyed playing some tunes with him. He broke the mold as far as ITM stereotypes are concerned and as far as I know, he was welcome wherever he showed up. I haven't seen him in a while, however.
We get some black musicians at sessions in Aberdeen, I'd say because it's too small a community to be segregated much, even on lines of musical preference, which I'd say is more the issue than racism. There is a well-kent local Nigerian trumpeter who can play most of the Scottish songs but isn't so fond of fiddle tunes. I know he is quite passionate about people supporting their indigenous traditions
The black uilleann piper from West Virginia would be Bernard Grigsby. I haven´t heard from him for a while. Jessie Smith the fiddler is black and very active
I think the key issue is indeed exposure. Why don´t more Afro Caribbean and Irish people in South London play Swedish trad music on the keyed harp? If Irish trad had as much exposure as R&B and rock music in the media then you´d get more people playing I´m sure.
personally ,it doesnt worry me,.all that concerns me ,is that people listen to each other while playing.
.Idont care if a session is made up of Japanese,eskimos,patagonians,australians,hare krishna,english,french, west indian.what I Iike is people making decent irish music[preferably guitarists playing in time]regardless of nationaility.Dick Miles
You know what's really disappointing? The lack of Chinese people playing Klezmer music. I just did a Google search for...oh forget it.
I think most African American musicians who are eager to study and play traditional music do exactly that, they simply study their own heritage, jazz, Old Timey string bands, the banjo/fiddle tradition ala The Carolina Chocolate Drops, one of my current favorites.
I think if you asked a serious African American traditional musician why they didn't go to Irish traditional music sessions they'd look at you like you had 2 heads.
...but after they sat down, grabbed a pint and realized we knew a bunch of the same reels...
...and then we could talk about how modern tap dance decended from the combining of native African dance with Irish immigrant sean nos stepping...
...but honestly, that's all good and interesting to me personally, but to expect them to and then wonder why they don't? Also, to put the onus on us, as if we're all being racist because it's all white people in Irish music sessions? Seriously? Was it a wind up? Did I wind up enough for ya?
I wasn't the only white (as in non-African) musician at the Blues Jams. There seemed to be as many white musicians as black musicians participating in this Blues Jam on a regular basis. The Blues Jams were supported and coordinated by a group of blues fans (most of them white) who called themselves the Arkansas Blues Connection. The Blues Jams started at a restaurant in downtown Little Rock which was owned and operated by an interracial couple (white man, black woman). When this restaurant closed, the Blues Jams moved to an Italian restaurant in North Little Rock for a few years and then the Blues Jams moved to the Tex-Mex, Southwestern restaurant.
I had an Arabic music group called, The Baghdad Bad Boys, and we were all white Yanks dressed up like the guy on the Folgers coffee can. (Actually I looked more like a patient who just had brain surgery and escaped from the hospital.)
Hey, PB, it wasn't Folgers, it was Hills Brothers, as I recall. The cat with the curly-toed shoes, right? ...he's holding the cup with both hands because they're shaking so badly...
I'm getting my coat. . .
Not exactly playing traditional music, but I had a black lad singing Irish and other types of songs with me on stage in an London Irish pub in the sixties. He strummed along with me on a banjo when I played Trad. Around the same time there was also a duo, Piano Accordion and Sax working the Irish pubs. The sax player was black and sang all the Irish songs. He used to be billed in the Irish Post as the Black Paddy from (I think it was Camberwell) Recently I've also noticed the occasional young black girl doing Irish dancing. In Ireland there are black faces in GAA football and hurling teams, so it stands to reason that it's just a matter of time before black children will be involved in the music. I hope I live to see it.
Everyone's forgotten about the nation's favourite ethiopian princess
In all seriousness though, I've got to thank Karate for raising the question - this thread's been an interesting read. I'm agreeing that it's an issue of lack of exposure than outright rejection.
This year at the Morpeth Northumbrian Gathering I found myself outside a room where a competition was going on. Through the glass, I saw a little black girl playing the Northumbrian pipes - though I couldn't hear her efforts. It was a first for me - it may well have been a first for the Northumbrian pipes as well. Until recently, one hardly saw black people around North-East England; the early West Indian immigrants didn't come here - the jobs weren't there.
"I'm agreeing that it's an issue of lack of exposure than outright rejection". mehitabel.
Yes, rejection or racism are not the issue as regards Irish trad music sessions. To participate in an Irish trad session you have to know some trad tunes, and know how to play an appropiate instrument, fiddle, flute, pipes, box, banjo, whistle etc. To make such an effort you have to be quite interested and put in some time. I think you´ll prehaps start seeing more black people at sessions in a few years in Ireland at least because 2nd generation immigrants will have been exposed to the music from an early age. Why are there so few Irish people at Masai gatherings in Kenya?
"A Black uillean piper resident in Sweden! You certainly know how to be unique, Steamwilkes! Hope you don't mind me saying. " Key manic Lad.
Not at all - it gets worse - My partner and I have practiced iaido (the art of the Japanese sword) for the past seven years and we´re off to Japan, Kyoto, in October. So a black samurai who also plays the uilleann pipes will really freak them out I suppose
Tell me more, Steamwilkes.... once I've recovered that is....
I like the spirit of how this discussion has evolved. Good natured and yet prepared to explore this issue in good faith. Not remonstrative as I feared it might when I first saw it posted. Are we all being a bit too polite on this potentially sensitive topic? God, on here I've seen people issuing death threats to one another over things like what key a tune should be played in, so this is tame by comparison!
Until recently there were very, very, very few black people in Ireland. For that reason alone the sessions were all white. As Fee Reed noted now that there are black people in Ireland, they are dancing and playing hurling and gaelic football, and will inevitably be caught up in the music, as these children will be Irish, and will receive an Irish upbringing.
Alas, there have already been reports of a few kids being racially abused at said gaelic football matches, not surprising as in the recnt past two GAA heroes, Sean Og O'Hailpin and Jason Sherlock were racially abused. Sean Og has a Fijian mother, and Jayo had some relationship to Vietnam, I am not quite sure what it was.
This brings us to the next part, outside Ireland. Hiostorically for a people who never met a black person, the Irish are notoriously racist. Boston is the main example, all three major sports teams being the last to employ a black player. All three clubs owned by "Irish" connections. I know all about competing for jobs in the new country and all that, but the sad fact is as each new group came to America started next to bottom. The black people remained bottom, and Irish influence helped to keep them there.
From my experience of building sites in London, albeit short and thirty odd years ago, Irish labourers in England were also racist, and yet lived side by side with West Indians, which was a bit of a paradox to say the least. England however has changed, and it is to its credit that by and large it has created a multi-national society. Yes there are BNP loonies, and trouble in certain areas, but these areas are inhabited by the "underclass", a word I never thought I would use, but now alas does exist. These people in all western societies have very little, and never will, and spend most of their time beiong easy recruitment fodder for racists, bigots, paramilitaries, whatever.
Despite that it is remarkable to see how well people co-exist in a City such as Manchester.
Soooo..............There were no black people in Ireland, hence all white sessions. I imagine that when the diaspora spread the music, many of them may have been racist, and not welcomed black people.
However as more and more non Irish connected people take to the music, this will gradually change.
And finally, traditional music has grown in stature but as a world issue it is still a minority pursuit.
So you could sum up by saying that traditional music has been a traditional white pursuit. That is slowly changing.
Well we know white folks will try just about anything... but African people aren't as likely to get involved with: Indian music, Andean folk music, Tango music, Klezmer music, Scottish music, Morris dance music, Balinese Gamelan music. Finnish music, German music, French folk music, Chinese music, Balkan music, Flamenco music, Lithuanian music, Scandinavian music, Basque music, Old-Time music, Bluegrass music, Japanese music, (partial list)
"Are we all being a bit too polite on this potentially sensitive topic? " KML
Not really. Racism exists in Ireland too, look how Irish Travellers get treated. It certainly exists in Sweden and from what I understand in Japan too. Just that in the context of Irish traditional music sessions that I am familiar with in Ireland, Denmark, Sweden & England I haven´t experienced problems because of my skin. Prehaps also because I´m the only black person present I don´t present any kind of threat?
We were thinking a couple of years ago of travelling through the North of Ireland and playing there, but were advised that it would be best to avoid certain pubs, areas or to get in touch with folks who knew where sessions were to be held. This was I realised because Irish traditional music could be a sensitive topic in the North although I had never given it a thought when playing in sessions in the Republic.
Bliss - you're right about Boston, except that they were the FIRST pro basketball organization to field an all-black team. Ironic.
So why have Irish Americans and Black Americans been at odds for so long? Simple economics that go back to the first waves of displaced Irish immigrants in the 1840s. When you have two groups fighting over the same scraps from the table of the establishment, there is bound to be trouble. Imagine being an Irish immigrant in 1847 and being thought of as far more expendable and of less value than a $1500 African slave? Political cartoons from that era constantly were equating black slaves and Irish immigrants as two sides of the same ignorant coin.
Racism exists all over the world - but it usually boils down to the haves vs have nots - Some of the worst racism I have ever witnessed was amongst Africans about other Africans!
I'm a huge fan [/sarcasm] of Conde Nast's lovely [/sarcasm] late 19th century cartoons for Harper's Weekly, here's a classic, I believe the subtitle is "Paddy & Sambo":
Spot on SWFL - If you can find it there is a great book called "Apes and Angels" which studies anti-Irish political cartoons of that era. Especially interesting is the chapter in which English phrenology and physiognomy experts from the 1870s suggest that the Irish may be a lost tribe of Africans based upon "their thick skulls, reluctance to work and rampant escapism though music, story and song."
Well Bliss, yes it explains the condition of racism and how it begins in a way. Considering the racist attitudes of that century were even more extreme than they are today, it isn't that surprising to see how an impoverished white group of immigrants would become enraged at being compared to black slaves - thus, the increased tension and rivalry between the two groups as the Irish immigrants sought a way up the economic ladder.
I believe that was your original point wasn't it? That Irish Americans are racist - especially in Boston?
" I'll be absolutely frank in saying it really p*sses me off that most sessions here are white only cliques." Karate
What tha??? I hate to point this out but you cant force people to play if they dont want too. Why should it p*ss you off?
My dad used to teach trad down at the Eora Centre in Redfern (Education centre for the Aboriginal community) There were a few people who really enjoyed it and one fellow in particular looked like he was going place on the banjo. That was in the 80's and Ive not seen any of them since. They all gave it up and moved on to other things.
Also I hate to point this out...but we are the only ones who actually think trad is cool. Everyone else in the world thinks we are complete loser geeks - its true....I can tell by the way people burst out laughing when I tell them I play irish music on the fiddle.
In all the sessions Ive ever been in I'd be much more worried about the person who comes in and cant play but insists on starting tune after tune, than the mexican, chinese or Aborgigine tune player who sits down at the same time.
A fascinating episode in history was the Mexican-American War, 1846-1848.
The ranks of the US Army were filled with Catholic Irish and German immigrants who were treated horribly by the Anglo Saxon Protestant officer corps. Violent anti-Catholic and Immigrant Nativism was rampant in America at the time. Los San Patricios were an entire unit of Irish and German artillerymen who left the ranks of the US Army to join the Mexican Army. Many of them were hanged by the US when Mexico surrendered.
The Nativists eventually created first the Know-Nothing Party and then the American Party. Wikipedia:
'...The Nativists went public in 1854 when they formed the 'American Party', which was anti-Irish Catholic and campaigned for laws to require longer wait time between immigration and naturalization. (The laws never passed.) It was at this time that the term "nativist" first appears, opponents denounced them as "bigoted nativists." Former President Millard Fillmore ran on the American Party ticket for the Presidency in 1856. The American Party also included many ex-Whigs who ignored nativism, and included (in the South) a few Catholics whose families had long lived in America. Conversely, much of the opposition to Catholics came from Protestant Irish immigrants and German Lutheran immigrants who can hardly be called "nativists."...'
bb Cruella is right of course. I have always said the only thing that separates us from other tragic groups of nerds is our excessive alcohol consumption and faux-celtic tattoos.
Bliss points out, (correctly and tragically) that Irish immigrants, especially in the US were notoriously racist. I would only change that to "uneducated" people are notoriously racist. We are talking about day-laborers with little or no exposure to the rest of the world and little or no formal education. To be an Irish American, one has to honestly reconcile and admit that our forefathers were both victims and perpetrators of these types of acts.
Bliss you have lived through 25+ years of horrible sectarian violence - you better than most know how humans in desperate situations can turn to the ugliest forms of tribalism in order to survive. That was the only point I was trying to make.
i agree that its based on heritage,
celtic ancestry/family is a big part people discover/latch onto this music.
i`m an english born honky, by blood i`m mostly irish.
there are many honkies, who, like me, identify with being irish, who at some point decide they have/must have irish blood, which allows them to think that irish culture and music is part of their history.
Whether or not they do actually have irish blood is irrelevant, the colour of their skin *allows* them to claim celtic heritage as their own.
my point is, there are few blacks (with the exclusion of montserratians) who would/could reasonably entertain the notion of having irish ancestry or heritage , any more than i might reasonably entertain the notion that i'm descended from the chiefs of dahomy
i love and play various genres of music, but irish music has a special meaning to me cos i see it as part of my history.
I dont see how you could feel this about this music if you cannot tie it into what you perceive as your roots.
ask yourself what got you involved in this music-its those same reasons that mean people of a different background will be elsewhere on a thursday evening.
If anyone knows of a session on montserrat could you post it here, it may change the perspective a bit.
Maybe - but 75 percent of most African Americans have some European ancestry, and of that, most of it is from the British Isles.
As you say, it's what part of a person's Heritage they choose to latch onto.
I'm very glad Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy choose to latch onto his Irish heritage instead of his Brazilian - then again think how different Whiskey in the Jar might have sounded with a samba groove behind it.... Hmmmm.
There are alot of people who have no irish or celtic heritage who play tunes. So I dont agree with the above statement at all.
Also I know a couple of fellas who have english surnames and caused much discussion when we were in Ireland.
I was apparently ok, cause I have the irishest name ever and I have brown hair freckels and green eyes, and so this one musicians was saying "oh but youre irish really, obviously - I mean...look at you" and I was saying "no, I'm not - I'm Australian' And he wouldnt believe that I was australian even with my thick aussie drawl because I look irish and play the fiddle .
One particularly famous muscian was horrified that these two fellas had English surnames and Australian accents, he said 'there are only two types of Australians....Convicts and Irish traitors'......Scary ....10 points who can guess who said it!
So my point is there is rasicm in many forms, and there are also many people without the blood who play tunes.
Jusa, SWL and any other citizens of the US of A, I am not arguing here, merely having a discussion, and I am not apportioning blame.
I have studied American history to a large degree, and the history of the Irish diaspora in many countries. I know why and where the racism came from, what is harder to understand is how it filtered back to the "homeland" where there were no black people.
Racism was rampant in most countries, and alas still is to some extent, but the battle is slowly being won.
Let's face it, this discussion could easily have said "why are there so few black golfers/swimmers/tennis players/classical musicians and a fair few other things.
I think the lack of black traditional musicians has little to do with naked racism, more a matter of the origin and popularity of the tradition. Take baseball, all the early stars and heroes were Irish, then all "white" race backgrounds, then black and now most stars are what are known as "Latinos". Evolution, and a reflection on the development of the society.
In the 1980s there were few black footballers in England, or even athletes, but now there are many. Evolution, and a big step towards a multi-national society.
Forty years ago Tommy Smith and John Carlos bravely stood on the Olympic podium in one of history's great protests. This year Obama could be president.
"have you got the abc for waltzing matilda?
How long have you been playing the ceol?" gooseinthenettles
And this is certainly prejudiced. I say something about trad that someone doesn't agree with and all of a sudden I don't know what I am talking about, how could I after all - I'm Australian, not Irish. So obviously I haven't a clue about tunes.So lame.
Also there is this whole thing here where people who have Irish accents get all of the gigs even though they are total complete hacks and cant play. There are some really great musicians who are here who have Aussie accents and are turned down for gigs because they aren't authentically Irish - even though, they are far better tunes players than these others who are getting all of the gigs. I mean - what tha? Has the world turned topsy turvey?
We're on the same page Bliss - what you just wrote there was brilliant. Funny thing is, once people realize how interconnected we all are (the human genome project for example) you come to realize that there is no such thing as race.
bb, if it's right about who gets the gigs, is it just because they have Irish accents? How do you know that? Are the great musicians with Aussie accents really turned down for gigs because they aren't authentically Irish? Is that what they are told or is that an assumption they are making?
If we're talking pub gigs, it might be the case that many publicans can't tell the difference between someone who can play well and someone who cannot, for a start.
Is it something about how the musicians with Irish accents who you say can't play well go about "marketing" themselves to a clueless publican compared to how the Aussie ones do that. Are the Aussie ones relying on a publican's ability to discern a 'good' player from a 'hack'?
A clueless publican or whoever, might equate an Irish accent with an ability to play Irish music well if they can't actually assess the playing for themselves, more than they will equate an Aussie accent with an ability to play Irish music. I think sometimes it's as simple as that - but not always, it might sometimes be as you say.
If so though, what can Aussie musicians do to overcome that?
My impression - an impression mind - is that Aussie trad musicians (the Irish trad variety), generally don't market themselves very effectively, even if they are great tune players. Maybe it's a cultural aversion to being seen to be doing something so "crass" as "marketing oneself". Dunno, but I'm not so sure that it's *only* a matter of Aussies not getting gigs because they don't have Irish accents.
As a person of mixed ethnic heritage (Chinese-Scots-Welsh but like bb, Australian through and through) I reckon that life is a smorgasbord and you select the things to which you want to pay attention. While some might say it's my heritage, I have little interest in Chinese traditional music. Chinese dancing doesn't do it for me (far too formal although some of the folk traditions are OK) - but I love diddley and other Celtic traditions, English music and the dance forms associated with them. Exposure is the key. I went to live in the Scottish Highlands between school and uni and chanced upon an Aly Bain concert, then I met my SO shortly after who is steeped in ITM - without those connections, trad might have completely slipped me by. Serendipity - I love it.
Well - I am looking on it purely as a spectator mind, but have been told by some very well known musicians who are very good at what they do and have been gigging for 12 years that that is the case. Recently they toured with an Irish Dance show in Australia - two musicians from Ireland, the rest from Australia. It was written into the Australian's contract they were *not* allowed to talk to the punters under any circumstances. But the ones from Ireland were allowed. Make of that what you will, but it looks pretty obvious to me.
We did a gig about a month ago and it was for a christening, the Irish woman was lovely - but she was a bit thrown that we weren't Irish. She said 'none of you are Irish? You'd better be good then'....
Also nobody can get a foot in the door of places such as the Irish Embassy because they already have their *Irish* Irish musicians (even if they are crap). But you are probably right about the marketing thing as well - Aussie tend to be a bit more laid back and they also shy away from the whole 'Look at me, look at me playing Irish music' thing. Its probably a combination of both.
"Is there any ethnic group, other than those whose ancestors come from the British Isles, that's *not* underrepresented at Celtic sessions?"
Actually, I seem to come across a disproportionate number of Jewish musicians (myself included) among the non-Irish participants in sessions in London - I remember one session with six players, four of whom were Jewish. Conversely, I now play in a klezmer band in the middle of Wales, and only two out of the 11 members are Jewish (even one of those is partly of Scots/Cumbrian stock).
bb, perhaps it wasn't about the relative skill of the Australian musicians but more that the agent touring the Irish Dance show was attempting to keep up the fiction that the whole show was from Ireland?
ok, lets put it this way round....see my previous post for context.
I`m a honky mook banjo player.
i love the sitar, and will one day have a crack at learning it (hahaha)
i live in an area of london with a large ethnicly indian population.
if i had the skill on the sitar that i have on the banjo, and i saw the opportunity to jam/session with other local musicians playing indian music, i would be reluctant to go.
why...?
i wouldnt want to crash someone elses party
i would feel like a fraud
i would stick out like a sore thumb, this might bother me, and might bother other people there.
i dont say these are sensible thoughts, but they are thoughts that might also occur to a black musician thinking about attending an irish session.
---
any road,
as has been said by others, this music is so very very niche,
hardly anyone is into it, never mind their race or creed.
eg in a place the size of london ive only ever found one shop that sells irish tenor banjo strings.
that says it all.....
-----------------------
and another thing, i just re read the OP.
could the OP expand on how the black girl at the session "made a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way"..............?
i`m not familiar with joan armatrading, except that she is a guitarist and singer, who happens to be black.
can you cite any white musicians who make “a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way"..............?
i will elaborate later if my my point is not obvious.
A couple of things jump out at me from what you're saying, bb - first, the Aussies aren't allowed to "talk to the punters", second, the woman saying if you're an Aussie "you better be good".
The commonality, to me, between these comments/events is that it is all in the perception of the person engaging the musicians.
In the Dance Show issue, it seems that the promoter wants to maintain an aura of "Irishness", by having musicians who have an Irish accent - so the "punters" are delivered some type of foreign mystique - maybe because he / she perceives that that is what the market - the punters in this case - actually want. (I know it sounds mercenary and cynical to do that, but hey, that's what a good deal of promoters want.)
It might be the same with doing a didje concert in Ireland - maybe the punters might want to hear an Australian accent with that rather than an Irish one. (It's simplistic I know.) Same with the Irish christening woman - some just aren't used to equating an Aussie accent with Irish music. And what does she mean by "good" anyway - would she think Lunasa for example are "good" - or just good at marketing - or maybe a combination of both.
I think it might be a combination of being "good" as well as giving the "punters" what they want to hear in the context in which they want to hear it - IF getting gigs and / or making a profession out of trad is the goal; and "punters" at a session might have a different set of expectations than "punters" at a Lunasa concert for that matter.
I know it really wrankles a lot of trad musicians but I think if gigs are the goal, depending on the level of involvement you want with that, then it comes down to sitting down and working out what it is that the "punters" want, and tailoring what you do to deliver. If the punters *love* you, then the promoters will come with cap in hand - thinking they can make a lot of money out of you.
bb, getting a gig a semi-regular / guest / resident band at an Irish Embassy if you're not Irish sounds like the hardest gig in the world to get! I'd steer away from lining up for that particular one, if I wasn't Irish.
"Look at me, look at me playing Irish music" thing, bb, is probably the idea that a lot of Aussie tune players have of what marketing yourself is. It isn't of course - playing irish music as a full time job and living is as much a business as anything else. Puts "Look at me, look at me being a teacher" into a different light doesn't it? Advertising and marketing oneself is just part of life - but you have to make sure you are delivering what the "punters" or the "employers" want, and if what you're doing doesn't quite do that, being prepared to change it - IF getting gigs is the goal.
Cruella bb et al. I'm still trying to figure out who Karate is from the various people I've met at sessions, and whether he or she really does indeed have a PhD in quantum physics - if s/he does I'll forgive the poor spelling (sorry karate - please don't chop me!) But anyway I think I'll stand by what KarWocToc says. Or rather I'll put my own interpretation on it. You went to our old session at the Woodman one time. We have played countless pubs in South London - all Irish, or English, all white. Yet the proportion of black people of the population in Lewisham borough is very high. And I'm curious as to why no-one has yet mentioned Ignatius Sancho, http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Sancho.html#1 black composer of English music, many of the standards in the English tradition and probably some which have seeped into the Irish tradition. Also I don't think you can compare Australian aboriginal experience of the white man (coming along and telling them they don't have a right to their ancestral land any more) to a black British experience. To just lump people together because of their skin colour, or their experience of white colonialism strikes me as a bit *racist* to be honest. Yet again, here we have people here on this website blowing off without having done their homework, ach well, it's a public site after all.
"Australian aboriginal experience of the white man (coming along and telling them they don't have a right to their ancestral land any more)" -
and that isn't *lumping people together because of their skin colour"?
*All* white men, or *some* white men.
Key - I was only bringing that particular thing up because - I have no idea about what goes on in England, I didnt know that there were alot of black people in Lewisham etc. I know nothing about it. I do however know about Aboriginal People and White Australian and that kind of thing. I think its very dangerous to talk about things you dont know. Hence why I brought up Aborginal People playing Irish music. I'm sorry - but that is not racist.
The only thing I know about England - is that every second day there seems to be kids murdering each other....quite sick really. Obviously whatever you guys are doing is not working.
Duijera - you don't honestly expect me to answer that do you.
OK, bb, but it is a totally different thing surely you must agree. I think Karate's original point was about the dearth of black (ie of afro-carribean and african origin) in sessions, in areas (eg London) where there is a high proportion of blacks in the population. It seems a shame if they're missing out on loads of fun!
Just saw your latest post cruella - if you want to stick your claws in get it right. I'm from Glasgow. England is a picnic. The murder rate in Scotand is currently 3.5 times that of England. The murder rate in Glasgow is the highest of any city in western Europe, about 8 times that of England. The crime rate in the peripheral housing estates (Drumchapel, Easterhouse, Castlemilk) spirals out of belief. Oh, and by the way these are all white people killing each other. My ma and da still live in the Drum in their 80's and they think it's a great place. Go figure. I can't work it out.
Oh my god - Key - if I didn't know better I'd think that you were purposely taking everything I say the wrong way on purpose to somehow prove that I am racist. I wasn't talking black or white kids, just the murder rate in general. I know Scotland's worse - I just didn't want to bring it up because you are Scottish and I didn't want you to get offended and think I was just trying to get a dig in. But seriously - take whatever I say anyway that you want. We can't all be scientists and mega smart like you, so maybe I came across differently than I intended. Sorry I'll try to be clearer next time.....now where did I put my damned PhD entitled 'The way people act on trad internet websites'.
Yeah Joe in England it's mostly black on black. But in the schemes of Glasgow they've perfected the art. At least they're not racist - they'll murder anybody - black brown or white.
in the city where i live, which is not a city with a substantial irish cultural community or a significant core of veteran irish players, comhaltas or otherwise, there are no fewer regular itm sessioners of african descent than there are regulars of asian or latino descent. these folks are people who describe coming to the music through the same "conversion experience" you hear from northern-european-descent regular sessioners here, whether of irish extraction or otherwise---they heard it somewhere, and that was it. i also have a close friend from toronto by way of trinidad, now living in japan, who does not play the music but is crazy about it and has been known to busk in the toronto underground singing pogues songs.
having said all that, a waggish explanation might be that in the u.s., itm remains the one euro-american musical form that african-americans have not transformed with their creative genius and unleashed upon the globe in the form of blues, rock, jazz, etc.
a more sobering, less waggish thought might be this truth---americans of irish descent remain oblivious, i.e., in almost clownish denial, about the degree to which they are still seen, with considerable justification, by african-americans as, racist redneck crackers. Bull Connor, anyone? after the civil war, the freed slaves & their descendants were seen as competition by the poor irish who came over in the mid & late 1800s (not the plantation-owner irish of "Gone With the Wind"). these irish, and yes, other non-anglo-saxon poor european immigrant groups, beat, lynched & brutalized blacks who came north to try to get away from the Klan & company. they systematically kept them out of trade unions, and much worse. Chief O'Neill, i would wager hard money, looked very different to black chicagoans of his time than he might to us. (the iroquois tribes still refer to george washington as, "Slayer of Children," but that is another story.)
there is a brilliant work of history by a harvard faculty member on this, titled "How The Irish Became White." it's the old marxist story of the have-nots taking out their misery on other have-nots, rather than on the real target, the haves. all this stuff helped create the pathologies of the black ghetto & the so-called black underclass, & crime, which earned more hostility from the working-class irish who helped create the problem in the first place. the irish weren't the only ones, but they are famous for it because they themselves were the "n-words" of the american immigrant groups before they "became white," and on way they "became white" was, locking the doors on african-americans. irish-americans just LOOOOOVE to see themselves as the friends of the underdog and victims of genocidal oppression themselves, and they have lied to themselves and denied this story for decades. but sorry......it is true. and bad feelings linger. i have had numerous african-american friends freeze, then respond with frosty politeness when i tell them i love & play irish music. when i was living in san francisco & one friend of color saw my claddagh ring, he just said, yeah, all the racists out on the Avenues (formerly irish-american working-class strongholds) wore those......it's changing. but it's still a fact.
Nate Ryan ~ I lived all over the MetroMess, as we so fondly referredd to the sprawl. Lastly in Oak Cliff. I grew up loving Juneteenth celebrations. Not to mention getting my black friends to take me to church just for the music. How can you not love a black Jesus?
One thing has always been true about Irish music & I do not have to say what it is. Everyone is welcome. All that is required is a love of the tunes.
Now to look at me you might think I look Irish. Fair enough but there is some Native American from my fathers' mother & African - American from my mother's fathers' side.
Who was it said, "I'm Irish, I'm black.(?)
Hey bb - I'm sorry, I'm not trying to twist it round. But you made a point about UK murder rates. It kind of makes my heart skip a beat when I think of all the young lads on these estates, a few decades ago could have been me, all stabbing each other, and no clog, there's no music as we know it on those estates. They are very depressing, poor and cultureless communities, not even communities, just assemblages of low rent housing. It's no wonder Gordon Brown took a shafting in Glasgow East. I didn't mean to bicker with you back there, just a thing a bit close to my heart. My apologies.
I really liked a Brit t.v. doco recently which arranged, with the guest participants consent of course, for their genetic profiles. All of the guests apparently purported to be English through and through. The results were spectacular. One terribly English old tweedy-type dame turned out reportedly to have a large proportion of her genetic background from China (probably stemming back to the Mongol invasions of Europe), as well as Native North American!
Other "100%" white Brits had sub-saharan genetic background, as well as southern european, middle eastern, and one even reportedly had a typical romany gypsy genetic profile.
Makes it all a bit academic doesn't it?
So much seems to hinge on what your accent sounds like.
now you *have* got me going DD. What? how did they do the genetic analysis? was it mitochondrial DNA or chromosomal? I don't understand, any chance you might be more specific?
I'm more worried about what Key Maniac Lad was saying about the "death of black people in sessions". Can you expand on that a bit, Key? I mean, is it to do with the high crime rate, or are black people more likely than other races to die spontaneously of natural causes whilst listening to the music?
Ho! I've not long joined an African choir, singing freedom songs. There are 70 odd choirists most of whom have never been to Africa (including me) ... but the songs are beautiful and we are having a lovely time rehearsing for some very special little public performances in some incredible places (including in the rocks in Trephina Gorge). Much of the choir is made up of singers who have been involved since it started and this is their third year with the choir. They sing beautifully. It is a wonderful community activity. I doubt there is anyone who could say we shouldn't be doing this. In fact it is fantastic of our choir master to share the songs, the melodies and the complex harmonies, with us.
Irish Traditional Music is not played here because it isn't the same social community activity that this choir is. Sorry guys and gals, its not about colour of skin, its about availability and inclusivity. (I am no great singer, but this is not competitive and people like me can blend right in and get enormous satisfaction from it) ...
Yes Key, it was a fascinating story. They had about five gung-ho Brits who thought they were 100% / no other background. Turned out they had huge chunks of background from many places. It sounded to me like you would have to go back to pre-1066 to find a vast majority of northern european only genetic background among the English. Since then, various invasions, the age of exploration, etc has led to a lot of influences. The result is that there is an "attitude or belief" in the present day of some sort of genetic "purity" when the reality is very different.
I cannot find any references to the doco on internet searches, damn it, but it was great entertainment. I think it was mitochondrial DNA profiling, from memory.
I did read somewhere that we each have as much phosporus in our bodies as in the average box of Redheads...dangerous when the Flame in the Fiddle comes around..
Here you are, Key. It was a doco called "100% English" made by Channel 4. Here are a few blog links referring to it. Hilarious. Gary Bushell was presented with his genetic profile which indicated that he had a sub-saharan ancestor in recent generations. (You'll know these locals better than I do...never heard of Gary Bushell before this.)
I hate to get back to the original point of the thread, but maybe
the majority of people of African origin, just aren't into it. A lot of
southern African styles are based on acute syncopation, and
complex harmony, so why would they be attracted to a genre
of music where the use of these devices is a lot of the time shunned and discouraged. Also there is a cultural attachment
from most of the non Irish players of the music around the world that might go back to their Northern European origins whatever, so a lot of people with African origin may not have
this motivation. Irish music is about singular melody. African music can be about multiple melodies.
Why do so few Irish people play Irish music?
In Australia 60% of the population have some Irish ancestry. Yet
there are hardly any sessions, even in Sydney and Melbourne.
Most of the regulars at my session are of English and Scottish origin.
My people are German Jews. My Irish/Scottish wife hates Irish music.
I think the question is a little weird - why aren't there more Lebanese
people playing Tunes? Where are the French?
Where are the Columbians? Why don't more
Orthodox Jews play? What about the Basques? etc etc
Maybe a lot of people back in the bad old days who got out of old world places didn't want to know anything more about them, they were just happy to get out alive from famines, persecutions, etc.
Very good point Hup. I think about that heaps. And why is the Melbourne scene far bigger than the Sydney scene? Especially as Sydney has a bigger population. We have 3 sessions a week in Sydney (two that are on the same time), I think there is at least 9 a week in Melbourne.
I often find that people call sessions 'elitist' or 'snobby' if said person isn't actually very good and finds the session standard a bit high. I know alot of very good musicians up in Brisbane and not one of them are in any way snobby. In fact they are lovely, lovely people.
No, I don't think Irish Trad Music will eat itself because it is elitist ... because it isn't really. It is simply that you need to be able to play it to play in a session ... whereas this community choir doesn't require anything except that you want to get in there and sing ... and then the learning and singing is done together.
Melbourne, in my understanding, traditionally had a more *consciously* Irish community than Sydney did. Sydney was a much more anglo city than Melbourne.
In around 1922 the Melbourne Irish community marched en masse in relation to the Irish civil war - I think there were tens of thousands of people march.
I don't think the same thing happened in Sydney at all.
Adelaide by contrast had very little Irish immigration at all historically.
Maybe the situation with Irish music in these places is a result of these historical trends. Boston might be a good analogy.
I know probably all the people you are referring to Cruella. I never said snobby. What I am referring to is a general reluctance of people in sessions to include the punters in the vibe of the session. Let's face it the punters fill the pubs.
If a punter wants to come up and sing "Maggie" or jump around the floor without getting thrown out I personally would play it for him , but I observe less and less people are prepared to read the mood of the room and move accordingly.
Its a lot different to the vibe in Eire. Or the vibe in Dooley's before it was sold for that matter. of course this is just perspective frm my little corner of the world.
While I personally don't think color has anything to do with one's taste in music...your exposure to specific genres of music as you grow up is more likely. Irish music hasn't "typically" been part of the black culture, however, if you want to see a great black Irish fiddler, check out: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=63432046
And I also have another black fiddle friend who plays a right handed fiddle upside down and backwards (lefty)!
I see what youre saying Chuneboi, and I agree, personally I am from the camp that feel that I shouldnt have to play the fields of Athenry if asked. But I found that that is exactly the same in Ireland - if some fool comes up acting a bollix they usually tell them to get lost. Or worse, they sit there smiling and being overly nice and as soon as said person or tune wrecker or whatever has gone they bitch and bitch and bitch behind the persons back. But then again - it all depends on the session doesnt it.
I know you know all the people I know in Brisbane - seeing as you live there and all.
Yes I've noticed that Cruella. Irish people are less inclined to say no even when that's what they mean. It's charming but complicated. I would treat punters on an individual basis. If someone looks like they're going to be entertaining or they're
genuine I always would oblige.
Following up on the "100% English" documentary (which was brillant, and should serve as a warning to a certain type of person everywhere), Brian Sykes, a Professor of genetics at Oxford has written a book about the genetic makeup of the Isles and here are his conculsions:
Conclusions: Sykes reaches several interesting conclusions:
1. Throughout the Isles, the basic and dominant genetic heritage is Celtic.
2. The basic Celtic heritage is modified by contributions from the other ethnic groups. The contribution from these groups varies from essentially zero up to a maximum of about 30%.
3. The Picts were closely related to the Celts, perhaps indistinguishable so.
4. The largest non-Celtic contribution is found in the northern islands, the Orkneys and Shetlands, where the Viking contribution is about 30%.
5. The Celtic settlers appear to have migrated from the northwest area of the Iberian peninsula.
6. The maternal and paternal lines often differ. The maternal line is often more Celtic, suggesting that women were less mobile than men (e.g., Viking raiders). The paternal lines suggest a disproportionate genetic contribution by a relatively small number of men (presumably those in powerful positions - the "Genghis Khan effect").
7. The maternal and paternal lines are fairly consistent in the Orkneys and Shetlands, suggesting that they were settled peacefully by Vikings who brought their wives with them.
My point is the differences between us in the Isles is largely cultural rather than genetic. In all honesty, it doesn't matter a jot where you're from - it's the attitudes to one another and the avoidance of stereotypes that's important. It's good to see most people on this thread seem to be positive in this respect.
You don't need to belong to a certain race to appreciate that type of music - you might view it differently if it's the tradition you're brought up in - but that doesn't mean you love or respect it more than someone who discovered it and it clicked with them.
P.S. Gary Bushell is not representative of the English any more than Jimmy Cricket is of the Irish.
"You don't need to belong to a certain race to appreciate that type of music - you might view it differently if it's the tradition you're brought up in - but that doesn't mean you love or respect it more than someone who discovered it and it clicked with them."
Exactly. Well said, SJ.
i saw a bbc docs tracing peoples genetic roots from their mitochondrial DNA (not the one previously mentioned)
it was from a few years ago, and studied a few black individuals. One of whom was a young londoner, who wore his black identity and culture very proudly.
when he was told that his mitochondrial DNA showed he was ostensibly european, he couldnt/wouldnt accept this.
later on he was told, "well theres a little bit of this in there too", and they took him off to the part of africa loosely linked to his dna results, at which point he felt instantly at home; he felt he had found his motheland.
i didnt think (nor did the program suggest) he was racist or bigoted because of this, he just couldnt accept having his identity shaken like that.
another one, john hurt (famous uk actor and top geezer) was on a family tree tracing docu recently.
he grew up in england, but there was a story in the family that way back when they were from ireland.
at some point he visits ireland, falls in love with the place, and eventually goes to live there.
during the making of the prog, it transpires that he aint
irish at all, its a myth.
he is quite devastated by this, when asked if it changes things for him he says "of course it bloody changes things! being irish was an absolute banker"
i have no real point to make here, but this does tie in with my previous post that people will develop their ancestal story according to how they look, regardless of any other evidence.
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i`d like to pick up a point made by steamwilkes.
quote:
"I haven´t experienced problems because of my skin[at sessions]. Prehaps also because I´m the only black person present I don´t present any kind of threat?"
this is a good point to ponder on.
there are many of us who might think its great to have a couple of non-white faces at a session, but if you walked into your local session and you were the only honky there....well, many people wouldnt like this.
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And i would still like to know what the OP meant by saying the black girl at his session did “a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way “
Tap dancer. Of course.
I saw the John Hurt documentary. He was gutted to find that his family history was a myth. He clearly valued his Irish heritage. I thought it was a rather cruel expose in the end, although I guess he must have agreed to it.
Some months ago a British MP (sorry, name escapes me) actually complained that non white people were under represented at 'The Proms' I wonder what his solution was?
"Jessie Smith the fiddler is black and very active."
If you're talking about Jesse Smith the former fiddler in Danu, he's not black. He's from Baltimore, Maryland in the US. I knew him when he was growing up here, and indeed I just saw his mother a couple of weeks ago. He's definitely not black. Did you perhaps meet him right after he returned from a holiday in Spain?
Some communities take their culture with them, Irish centres/clubs in England for example. Other don't, or maybe they haven't settled in large enough numbers, Scottish clubs/centres in England, or lack of. There may well be Scottish clubs in other countries..Canada, New Zealand etc. perhaps my parents just settled too close to home.
Geeez.....I thought geezers played geezes (whatever they are).
Isn't Jiminy Cricket a popular brand of cell phone?
Originally, my ancestors came to the United States from Ireland and Scotland while this country was still a British colony. Since then, they have intermarried with people from various other ethnic groups. As a result, even though I look like a stereotypical "white" person, my ancestry is considerably mixed and there is nothing I can do about it.
I certainly cannot get into a time machine and tell my ancestors not to marry this person or that person. Of course, if I succeed in persuading my ancestor to marry someone else, I might cease to exist.
On my mother's side, I am descended from a family who owned and operated a plantation in south Arkansas before a certain most un-Civil War. If "Massa" ever went to the slave quarters for a certain type of "fun and games" with the female slaves, I may have some African mixed in along with everything else.
One of the people who helped start the local Irish Session and helped keep it going is a Jewish woman whose ancestry is German and Hungarian.
Why would you want to do anything about it? Don't you think it is interesting having all those backgrounds?
The lady who started your session might have an Irish background, heaps of Hungarians do actually. Historically, the Austro-Hungarian military had quite a few Irish field marshals as well of course as large swathes of their armies from Ireland. I once met a Hungarian person by the name of Fennessy. Hungarian as. The name is Irish. One of his ancestors obviously one of the Wild Geese three hundred years before or so. Ironic that his father's family was still in the Austro-Hungarian military up to his grandfather's time early last century.
Irish music has historically travelled out of Ireland ~ back again ~ etc. & so forth.
There are pockets of Irish culture everywhere. Is Ireland now beginning to experience the growth of other cultures coming from all over to live in Ireland?
Perhaps the experience, over time, will contribute to what we call traditional Irish music.
Not many "Brown people" either.
Do these people come in the pub when the session isn't in sitting, or is the session a bit of an irrelevance and Black people don't come in the pub at all?
If the pinko, liberal, beardy Guardian readers had anything to do with it, they would close the session as it didn't comply with their cultural ticklist for accesibility, even though the "target group" may not be interested in ITM.
Be honest, if you went to Africa, you might hear concertinas, but you would hear very little ITM played - isn't it surprising many Africans don't go to sessions?
Does it really matter if, for obvious reasons, they aren't really interested in ITM?
A young friend of mine from afro-European roots is a fantastic fiddler in the Belfast session scene - she is gorgeous and more Irish than any of us, being born (?) and bred here. We aso have a ginger bodhran player and translucent me, a real melting pot. Me thinks you are stirring the sh*t. Why aren't there more protestants playing ITM?
Duijera Dubh, I believe my background is interesting and I wouldn't change it even if I could. Unfortunately, though, there are still a lot of fools who seem to disapprove of such a thoroughly mixed up background like mine.
There are still too many people here (in Arkansas and other states) who are unable and/or unwilling to let go of the past and try to move forward to a better future for themselves as well as their children and grandchildren. They want revenge for the ways in which their parents or grandparents were mistreated.
2: Totally agree with Cruella about useless Irish people playing all over the world when the natives are much better.
3: Jimmy Cricket grew up in different times. as the "Folk Revival" was under way he may have heard the Dubliners and such, but he was more into "The Troggs" and pop music.
Hung about the "Palm Grove" cafe with Squire Gorman, Skipper McCann, Geordie Williams et al. He did not play bodhran, but who did then?
4: Always liked the first words spoken by a friend of mine in Norn'Ireland, after waking up following an operation after he had been shot. "Look on the bright side, you could live in Florida".
Forget all this - why don't more IRISH people play their own traditional music? Last time I was there, all I could find was American Country Western and Gawd awful Industrial techno-club music.
LOL - Bliss, I have no doubt the indignant crowd leaped right through their computer monitors at you over that one...
I have no doubt your gun shot story was true. My pals from Norn Iron have a lovely collection of scars to brag about - not to mention an impressive collection of rubber bullets! Those suckers are huge!
"If you're talking about Jesse Smith the former fiddler in Danu, he's not black. He's from Baltimore, Maryland in the US. I knew him when he was growing up here, and indeed I just saw his mother a couple of weeks ago. He's definitely not black. Did you perhaps meet him right after he returned from a holiday in Spain?" John K.
I´m quite aware that Jessie is from Balitmore, and his mother is Donna Long and I´m quite sure that I read an interview somewhere some time back, possibly the English magasine FolkRoots, where it was stated that Jessie´s father was an Afro-American, a jazz musician? I bumped into Jessie in at the Tönder folk Festival in Denmark some years ago when Danu was playing there and I got a very strong vibe from him. I´ve done a google search but couldn´t find any verification, so I could be mistaken, although I hope not, there aren´t many of us having a go at this music. What´s Spain got to do with anything?
bb, The answer for those of us who live several timezones away from the rest of the good folk on this board is to cultivate Irish accents and keep the birth certs well hidden when the promoters come out to pay. Top o' the morning to ye! (and I guess that's another stereotype - but a nice way to start the day downunder).
WHY does it matter ?!?!?!?
And WHO really cares?!?!?!
I'm guessing that you don't live / play in New York City.....or the US, for that matter....we have GREAT traditional musicians of MANY ethnicities regularly playing "Irish traditional music "
And we are richer for it!
All I said in my first post was black people are under-represented in sessions in London, and it may become an issue in the future in Ireland. I was not saying that the colour of your skin has an impact on well or not you play this music. So that of course dosen't matter.
Jeeves, you posted the link for Josh's new CD and it reminded me of a "funny" little anecdote involving him. There is another African American friend of mine who comes to sessions who mildly resembles him (similar height, bald heads of sorts) and they constantly are confused for one another, primarily during one of the festivals that we all attend. Probably the most extreme situation I ever witnessed was a lady at the festival who was talking to my friend and insisted that he was playing flute at a session. My friend in fact plays accordion so obviously it was Josh who she had seen play. My friend informed the lady of this fact, but she was persistent that no it was my friend that she had seen play. She never believed my friend and eventually he had to just walk away from the conversation. During the week-long festival my friend estimates that he gets mistaken for Josh 50-60 times, and it is often by the same people who have met him many times over the years that he has attended the festival. Guess this is a story to just demonstrate how little exposure that many Irish musicians have to African American people that they can't differentiate two people.
Sorry I haven't time to plough through all contributions here so point may have already been made on this related issue. Why are Japanese people always so good at playing Irish music? - I've yet to meet anyone from that country who wasn't competent on their instrument. Maybe we share something in our DNA make-up!
Handy observation, bannerman. In my experience, Japanese people work really hard and practise whatever it is they are pursuing in an extremely structured and detailed way. Those Japanese, for example, who choose to try to learn English, do so, many of them through an absolutely dedicated study of English grammar. Almost with exception Japanese students of English, in my experience, have a knowledge of English grammar far far in excess of that of any native English speaker. (The problem is though, that a complete knowledge of English grammar may not make you an English speaker, many would no doubt agree.)
I think the formality of Japanese society, somewhat like, I would think, the constraints and restrictions of Victorian English society, leads many young people in Japan today, I think, to seek some more relaxed pursuits as an outlet from the stringent norms. Irish music I think provides that, but still allows / provides / requires disciplined study and practice, which the society values and enjoys, I believe.
Don't think it is much to do with DNA - but hey,,,maybe!
I have a hard time imagining a Japanese player wanting to be seen playing their instrument in public, let alone at a session, before they were competent on their instrument. I don't think they'd want to put themselves forward as a player with the contradiction of not being very accomplished on their instrument first. Big loss of face to do something like that I would have thought.
Black people in sessions
Black people in sessions
Hello, I have made a couple of posts on here before. This my first post of a discussion It is probably quite controversial, but I think it needs to be talked about. I have only ever seen 2 black people at sessions. I mean african or afro-carribean. I have seen people from the ethnic groups, asian (or south asian, ie indian/pakistani) and east asian (chinese and japanese etc.) but only ever two african descent people. one was at a session I went to last saturday, a lass who was singing/playing guitar, and she made a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way, of some standard Irish songs, put a bit of real "soul" into the Fields of Athenrye.And it was very impressive, not being one for "fusion" but this really did work.
I think this will become a bigger issue as Ireland itself is experiencing a massive influx of not only Polish and other eastarn European nationals but also Nigerian and other african people. Well, maybe, like latin American music, their own culture is so strong, they don't need to come out of their own vernaculer. And that would be a shame because I personally like the various african and latin american ...AND chinese and indian etc forms of music. I would hate traditional music to be a caucasion only persuit but I can't understand why African and Afro Carribean people are not visible. Where we live in London (South of the river) particularly Brixton, the dominant ethnic group is black, mostly afro-carribean. I wonder if it is that irish music is just regarded as so "uncool" to be taken seriously?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
No comment until I talk to a solicitor.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
I'm trying to work out who you are, Karate. I have a fair idea, as I know a fair few players in South London, but I'm not certain. Anyway, I generally consent with the questions you are asking. I've seen that lady at Tír na nOg in Wandsworth, if that's the same one. Forget all the solicitor stuff, it's a fact. Black people are under represented. My view is that this is music to share, not to hide away and worship and cherish. And not only that it can be enriched by sharing, eg I believe the banjo was originally an African instrument. Anyway thanks for your comments Karate
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Hiya Danny! Great to make contact with you - I really like your flute playing, and where do you get all those tunes from? I just love it when you start up a set of tunes then the whole pub goes quiet. Better than they deserve.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
I live in Providence, Rhode Island, around 30% black, a large population for a New England city. I have the same questions about why there aren't many blacks in other activities that I like: skiing, hiking, camping, climbing. As far as a Boston Irish pub (I can't speak for your area) , there has been a history of tension between blacks and whites, especially from the civil rights days here in states. They may explain some of it.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by eedbjp
Re: Black people in sessions
Oh shucks. I'm just an ould crap that's been blawin' away for years, no big deal. In fact I'm still learning.
I'm STILL trying to work out who are though, but I have to say, thanks for the compliments. When I *do* suss your real life personna I'll big you up beyond reality as well
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Hey !! I did NOT type "I'm just an ould crap" Jeremy's filter should have allowed me to say "I'm just an ould bollix"
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
The banjo is indeed African in origin, later incorporated by Irish American musicians during the heyday of the minstrel shows.
Karate I'm just curious as to "why this needs to be talked about." Are you looking to recruit people of color to your session? Are you concerned that this music is unwelcoming to ethnic minorities? All sorts of people from various ethnic backgrounds discover and enjoy this music. It's all about exposure. In the U.S. these days it's more rare to play with a person who actually has any Irish or Scots roots or any previous familiarity to this genre. I've played with all sorts of folks, including a few African Americans and most did not come to this style of music until middle age, and from a completely different cultural background.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
I don't know the situation in the states, but I wonder sometimes is there a case of - for want of a better word, or term, - reverse racism. Blacks assume whites are going to be racist against them, so they become racist in their asumptions about whites. Their racism is that of whites being racist against them! Just my theory. Burn me if you need to..
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
I new this woold engender all the polically correct responses. I dont care. This is a true and real issue. Where we live it ...dose.... need to be talked about. It's a real issue. My wish is that our music is for everyone, no matter what their coolour. Not trying to recruit specificly balck or green or purple people. I just wish you'd not try to pick nonexistant holes in my agument. The simple fact is that afro people are under represented at sesions in this part of London. I'm just curiuos as to why
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
I'm in no position to burn you karate - I would just perhaps suggest that fear of rejection and lack of interest are better terms than reverse racism. Someone above wanted to know why they don't see more people of color on ski slopes or out camping. The list of reasons for that range from lack of opportunity to outright fear. I had an African American friend tell me once that "Black folks don't surf." I shamed him for allowing negative stereotypes and fear to limit his view of the world. On the other side of the coin I played with a black bodhran player from Baltimore a few years ago. After some exposure to Irish music by friends, he fell in love with it and took it up. He decided he didn't give a damn if any of his peers mocked him for playing the music (who among us hasn't reached that conclusion!)
Bottom line is once we strip away the barriers of tribe and self-imposed walls of "self," people can and do fall in love with this music.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
My peers who are not into Irish traditional music admire my love of the tunes.
It is my friends who do play Irish music that always give me a hard time. It is some quirkiness.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
Are you arguing that traditional culture automatically becomes inherently racist when predominantly practised by persons of the source ethnicity?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by TomB-R
~
No they are simply quirky.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
I´ve just posted a reply to this thread, but can´t see it? Anyways I´m black and think that Irish traditional music is very, very cool. I´ve been going to Willie Week and playing in sessions since 1996. I´m English and live in Sweden. We´ve been going to Ireland every year, Clare, Sligo and down to Kerry, playing in sessions everywhere. I play a set of uilleann pipes by Dave Williams R.I.P. and I also play the flute. I´ve seen black musicians at Willie Week, mostly fiddlers and Derek from Birmingham who sings and also plays the mandolin. We certianly exist.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Drunk people in sessions
Why are there no drunk people at sessions?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Black people in sessions
Why are there no (longer) spoons players at your session Button?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
Nice one Jusa. But I don't think we've got to Karate's very bottom line. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Nobody's asking black people to become/or adopt the ways of white people any more than blacks are asking whites to take up black lifestyles (although many do). I think Karate has a fair point in highlighting this issue.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Karate Wocky Tocky.....
Maybe they just don't like the music? Do you and your friends go to, for instance, reggae or bangra nights "south of the river" in London?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Black people in sessions
I understand that some people will do a double take when I turn up at a session in Ireland, but I´ve never had any bad experiences because I´m black. Irish people/musicians have asked how I became interested in the pipes, I explain then we just get on and play. I´ve found that sometimes North Americans over in Ireland to play can have a bit of an attitude, prehaps hard for them to get their heads around it I don´t know, but who cares. It´s interesting to go outside the box. I´ve Willie McTell, Son House etc. and even Cajun music and english folk music, but it´s hardcore Irish traditional music which is closest to my heart. Especially the pipes and the flute and musicians such as Johnny Doran, Seamus Ennis, Pat Mitchell, Mick Coyne, Leo Rickard, Kitty Hayes & Peter Laban, Peter Horan, Pat Mahon, Marie Ni Ghrada, Catherine McEvoy etc.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
KML - perhaps you're right - maybe I did miss Karate's point. I guess for me either a session is welcoming or it isn't. However, I still have a very hard time believing any form of reverse racism is involved.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Well dressed people in sessions
Why aren´t there any well dressed people at sessions these days...I mean...never mind
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
Steamwilkes - I'm very glad to hear what you say. If that has broken my stereotype, that's good. I have been on this website lurking for quite a long time and this issue has never really been explored. I'll be absolutely frank in saying it really p*sses me off that most sessions here are white only cliques. I'm white, i'm good at maths, but rubbish at spelling, and english, yet I can still express myself. After a fashion. It just all comes out as I think it, and that has its own logic.I get emotionally wound up with these kind of discussions so maybe best that I contribute less.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
I personally have never seen a black person at a session, or heard of a black person playing Irish music (except for Steamwilkes just now), but I don't think it's that strange that there should be so few. Most people who play Irish music are either Irish themselves or are of Irish descent. These people are almost invariably white, obviously. Very few people get into the music who have absolutely no Irish (or at least Celtic) background. Of these few, black people are in the minority anyway, because in Europe and North America - where most Irish music is played - there are generally a lot more whites than blacks. A minority of a minority, that's all.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Bald people in sessions
Why are there no bald people in sessions?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Black people in sessions
Traditional music is a minority interest. Black people probably don't come across British/Irish traditional music often enough to be moved towards participation.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Black people in sessions
Molaoch has a point there - I´m black but I´m not interested in rap or reggae, or opera, but I do like country blues, sixties soul music, Irish traditional music, Indian music, modern jazz and Bach. I mean you don´t have to conform to an ethnic stereotype, like what you want. It´s possible to like both Scarlett Johansson and Halle Berry. Why limit yourself?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
Joe CSS - of the hundreds of folks who play irish music in Arizona, most are not Irish. At my local, our session host was born in Germany. But yes, in the grand sceme of available music styles, there are few people of color in Irish music.
Karate - I wasn't trying to stir you up. Apologies. I just found the post curious, and brave.
Steamwilkes - We yanks are still trying to wash 400 years of institutionalized racism out of our system. Perhaps if Barack Obama gets elected, a whole new vista of how people perceive each other will be opened.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
Fair enough Jusa, I was making assumptions based on what I see here in London. I'm sure what I said holds for a lot of places, though.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Black people in sessions
Karate - don't contribute less, please. You're obviously a person of great passion. We need to hear more from the likes of you
Joe - I have to just simply disagree with you, sorry. Where I live in Lewisham, South London the biggest ethnic group is of course white British but closely followed by Turkish then Afro-Carribean then other African, mostly Nigerian. Lewisham 20 or 30 years ago was considered an Irish area would you believe, and 30-50 years before that a Scottish enclave no less. Anyway, back to your point, the great Zina Lee who doesn't seem to contribute here these days is Chinese American, and a fine player as well, Slainte is Japanese, there are thousands of non-Irish non-British Europeans who a re rgular contributors here, not to mention squillions of others....
In any case, what about mixed race people, half Irish half Carribean. There are a lot of them about you know....
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Karate it´s good that you brought this up, this is a disscussion forum after all. As Lowprofile remarked, Irish trad is not a mainstream music form, so exposure is limited. Here in Sweden Swedish trad music is a minority music and Irish trad even more so. Still we are a few enthusiasts who are obsessed. Same with the uilleann pipes, you have to be not a little strange to even consider trying to play such an instrument.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
Crikey, I've joked on occasion that pubs should offer free drinks to all *brown-eyed* musicians. It's a dominant gene, and I live and play in a very ethnically diverse city, so that sounds like a losing deal for the pubs, but I'm often the only brown-eyed person holding an instrument.
There are disproportionately few black people at sessions. There are disproportionately many people of Celtic descent at sessions. Is there any ethnic group, other than those whose ancestors come from the British Isles, that's *not* underrepresented at Celtic sessions?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Black people in sessions
I just put "Irish music session" and then "traditional music session" into Google images and it is a bit depressing how very white all the faces are.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Black people in sessions
A Black uillean piper resident in Sweden! You certainly know how to be unique, Steamwilkes!
Hope you don't mind me saying.
Yes I know this refers to a totally different ethnic group but maybe you'd be interested anyway, I read somewhere that in some parts of Pakistan, in the North I think, they have their own Scottish bagpiping tradition. Dates back to imperial days. And they compose their own tunes. You try telling those boys the pipes aren't Pakistani....they just wouldn't believe you ...for starters....
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
I don't see it as that surprising or depressing. I just put "African music" into Google images, and guess what? All the faces are black. Is that depressing?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Black people in sessions
Karate, you say "I'll be absolutely frank in saying it really p*sses me off that most sessions here are white only cliques. " Why does it P you off? I'm sure we're all agreed that there's no racism involved, so what's the problem?
If any non-whites came to the sessions I go to, the main problem would be that the warmth of welcome they'd receive might be embarrassing!
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Black people in sessions
As for why there aren't well-dressed people at sessions....the reason is probably that most of the people at sessions prefer to be comfortable while they are playing music. They dress for comfort instead of trying to be stylish or fashionable.
As for myself, I am stil going to be plain, homely, and unhandsome no matter what I wear so I dress for comfort when I go to a session.
As for the lack of bald people at sessions.....since I am losing my hair, I suppose I could shave my head and bring my electronic keyboard to the session at The Plough & Star in San Francisco (where Phantom Button plays).
There used to be a popular Blues Jam in the bar at a Tex-Mex, Southwestern style restaurant here for many years. Musicians of all types of shapes, sizes, colors, and ethnic groups would show up on a regular basis to participate in these Blues Jams and almost everyone had a good time playing the blues. The musicians who didn't enjoy themselves were usually the ones who didn't think I belonged there and was trying to steal their music because my ancestors didn't come here from Africa. I did my best to ignore them and keep playing the piano.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Black people in sessions
Hohner Pokerwork melodeons certainly get about as well. See http://www.mustrad.org.uk/graphics/madagas1.jpg
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Black people in sessions
This might sound a bit silly but Irish trad music perfectly fits the description of that we usually associte with black music - or black musicians anyway., full of soul, individuality, the power in the playing at the moment of the playing, if you know what I mean, the zen moment if you like, the spontaneaty. Oh blast, maybe i wax too lyrical
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
No. You don't wax too lyrical. That's exactly how I feel the music of the people should be - and it seems to me it should be bringing people together, not separating them on the basis of meaningless accidents of genetics like skin colour.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Black people in sessions
In America, I can say that I think it is more of a matter of exposure to Irish music. Over here blues and jazz are getting shoved aside for rap, so black musicians I know that are cultivating a cultural heritage are cultivating the music of thier own heritage, which over here is jazz and blues.
I also think eedbjp hit on something about racial tension between the Irish and Blacks over here. Boston is particularly bad and so is Philly. I don't know about New York since I'm not crazy enough to take the subway past 101st street, but its probably more of the same there, too.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Black people in sessions
fauxcelt, I've had the same experience. I uesd to play with a blues band in the Dallas/ Fort Worth area. When we did the Juneteenth Festival at Fred Moore Park (celebrating the end of slavery in Texas) I was the only white guy there.
it can be a little unnerving to be the only member of your race for miles, so I can see why an Irish session in the white part of town could be given a miss by the local black players.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Black people in sessions
I knew a black Uilleann and NSP piper/flute player from W. Virginia who used to make the rounds of piping events on the east coast. I met him in St. Louis a couple years running and enjoyed playing some tunes with him. He broke the mold as far as ITM stereotypes are concerned and as far as I know, he was welcome wherever he showed up. I haven't seen him in a while, however.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Bill Reeder
Re: Black people in sessions
I had a latin jazz band for a god few years where I was the only white guy. No one ever pointed that out that I know of.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Black people in sessions
We get some black musicians at sessions in Aberdeen, I'd say because it's too small a community to be segregated much, even on lines of musical preference, which I'd say is more the issue than racism. There is a well-kent local Nigerian trumpeter who can play most of the Scottish songs but isn't so fond of fiddle tunes. I know he is quite passionate about people supporting their indigenous traditions
There is certainly no lack of baldies!
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Bren
Re: Black people in sessions
The black uilleann piper from West Virginia would be Bernard Grigsby. I haven´t heard from him for a while. Jessie Smith the fiddler is black and very active
I think the key issue is indeed exposure. Why don´t more Afro Caribbean and Irish people in South London play Swedish trad music on the keyed harp? If Irish trad had as much exposure as R&B and rock music in the media then you´d get more people playing I´m sure.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Hedgehogs in sessions
"There is certainly no lack of baldies!" Bren.
Fair enough but are they well dressed bald people?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
personally ,it doesnt worry me,.all that concerns me ,is that people listen to each other while playing.
.Idont care if a session is made up of Japanese,eskimos,patagonians,australians,hare krishna,english,french, west indian.what I Iike is people making decent irish music[preferably guitarists playing in time]regardless of nationaility.Dick Miles
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Black people in sessions
You know what's really disappointing? The lack of Chinese people playing Klezmer music. I just did a Google search for...oh forget it.
I think most African American musicians who are eager to study and play traditional music do exactly that, they simply study their own heritage, jazz, Old Timey string bands, the banjo/fiddle tradition ala The Carolina Chocolate Drops, one of my current favorites.
I think if you asked a serious African American traditional musician why they didn't go to Irish traditional music sessions they'd look at you like you had 2 heads.
...but after they sat down, grabbed a pint and realized we knew a bunch of the same reels...
...and then we could talk about how modern tap dance decended from the combining of native African dance with Irish immigrant sean nos stepping...
...but honestly, that's all good and interesting to me personally, but to expect them to and then wonder why they don't? Also, to put the onus on us, as if we're all being racist because it's all white people in Irish music sessions? Seriously? Was it a wind up? Did I wind up enough for ya?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
I wasn't the only white (as in non-African) musician at the Blues Jams. There seemed to be as many white musicians as black musicians participating in this Blues Jam on a regular basis. The Blues Jams were supported and coordinated by a group of blues fans (most of them white) who called themselves the Arkansas Blues Connection. The Blues Jams started at a restaurant in downtown Little Rock which was owned and operated by an interracial couple (white man, black woman). When this restaurant closed, the Blues Jams moved to an Italian restaurant in North Little Rock for a few years and then the Blues Jams moved to the Tex-Mex, Southwestern restaurant.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Arab people in sessions
I had an Arabic music group called, The Baghdad Bad Boys, and we were all white Yanks dressed up like the guy on the Folgers coffee can. (Actually I looked more like a patient who just had brain surgery and escaped from the hospital.)
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: No unattractive women in sessions
Hey, PB, it wasn't Folgers, it was Hills Brothers, as I recall. The cat with the curly-toed shoes, right? ...he's holding the cup with both hands because they're shaking so badly...
I'm getting my coat. . .
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by tomw
Re: Black people in sessions
Vintage Hills Bros. coffee can:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1078/1354704251_730c48e37c.jpg?v=0
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
Not exactly playing traditional music, but I had a black lad singing Irish and other types of songs with me on stage in an London Irish pub in the sixties. He strummed along with me on a banjo when I played Trad. Around the same time there was also a duo, Piano Accordion and Sax working the Irish pubs. The sax player was black and sang all the Irish songs. He used to be billed in the Irish Post as the Black Paddy from (I think it was Camberwell) Recently I've also noticed the occasional young black girl doing Irish dancing. In Ireland there are black faces in GAA football and hurling teams, so it stands to reason that it's just a matter of time before black children will be involved in the music. I hope I live to see it.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Black people in sessions
Everyone's forgotten about the nation's favourite ethiopian princess
In all seriousness though, I've got to thank Karate for raising the question - this thread's been an interesting read. I'm agreeing that it's an issue of lack of exposure than outright rejection.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Black people in sessions
I was at a session yesterday and there was a black woman playing the Fiddle. In fact she is a regular at said session.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Unseen122
Re: Black people in sessions
This year at the Morpeth Northumbrian Gathering I found myself outside a room where a competition was going on. Through the glass, I saw a little black girl playing the Northumbrian pipes - though I couldn't hear her efforts. It was a first for me - it may well have been a first for the Northumbrian pipes as well. Until recently, one hardly saw black people around North-East England; the early West Indian immigrants didn't come here - the jobs weren't there.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Black people in sessions
"I'm agreeing that it's an issue of lack of exposure than outright rejection". mehitabel.
Yes, rejection or racism are not the issue as regards Irish trad music sessions. To participate in an Irish trad session you have to know some trad tunes, and know how to play an appropiate instrument, fiddle, flute, pipes, box, banjo, whistle etc. To make such an effort you have to be quite interested and put in some time. I think you´ll prehaps start seeing more black people at sessions in a few years in Ireland at least because 2nd generation immigrants will have been exposed to the music from an early age. Why are there so few Irish people at Masai gatherings in Kenya?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
"A Black uillean piper resident in Sweden! You certainly know how to be unique, Steamwilkes!
Hope you don't mind me saying. " Key manic Lad.
Not at all - it gets worse - My partner and I have practiced iaido (the art of the Japanese sword) for the past seven years and we´re off to Japan, Kyoto, in October. So a black samurai who also plays the uilleann pipes will really freak them out I suppose
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
Hills Brothers... that's the one. Replace the cup with a zurna and it looks like I did.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Black people in sessions
Tell me more, Steamwilkes.... once I've recovered that is....
God, on here I've seen people issuing death threats to one another over things like what key a tune should be played in, so this is tame by comparison!
I like the spirit of how this discussion has evolved. Good natured and yet prepared to explore this issue in good faith. Not remonstrative as I feared it might when I first saw it posted. Are we all being a bit too polite on this potentially sensitive topic?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
An interesting topic, with a variety of reasons.
Until recently there were very, very, very few black people in Ireland. For that reason alone the sessions were all white. As Fee Reed noted now that there are black people in Ireland, they are dancing and playing hurling and gaelic football, and will inevitably be caught up in the music, as these children will be Irish, and will receive an Irish upbringing.
Alas, there have already been reports of a few kids being racially abused at said gaelic football matches, not surprising as in the recnt past two GAA heroes, Sean Og O'Hailpin and Jason Sherlock were racially abused. Sean Og has a Fijian mother, and Jayo had some relationship to Vietnam, I am not quite sure what it was.
This brings us to the next part, outside Ireland. Hiostorically for a people who never met a black person, the Irish are notoriously racist. Boston is the main example, all three major sports teams being the last to employ a black player. All three clubs owned by "Irish" connections. I know all about competing for jobs in the new country and all that, but the sad fact is as each new group came to America started next to bottom. The black people remained bottom, and Irish influence helped to keep them there.
From my experience of building sites in London, albeit short and thirty odd years ago, Irish labourers in England were also racist, and yet lived side by side with West Indians, which was a bit of a paradox to say the least. England however has changed, and it is to its credit that by and large it has created a multi-national society. Yes there are BNP loonies, and trouble in certain areas, but these areas are inhabited by the "underclass", a word I never thought I would use, but now alas does exist. These people in all western societies have very little, and never will, and spend most of their time beiong easy recruitment fodder for racists, bigots, paramilitaries, whatever.
Despite that it is remarkable to see how well people co-exist in a City such as Manchester.
Soooo..............There were no black people in Ireland, hence all white sessions. I imagine that when the diaspora spread the music, many of them may have been racist, and not welcomed black people.
However as more and more non Irish connected people take to the music, this will gradually change.
And finally, traditional music has grown in stature but as a world issue it is still a minority pursuit.
So you could sum up by saying that traditional music has been a traditional white pursuit. That is slowly changing.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Black people in sessions
I hope I'm not the only person here who winces every time they read the monicers "they" and "them".
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Black people in sessions
Well we know white folks will try just about anything... but African people aren't as likely to get involved with: Indian music, Andean folk music, Tango music, Klezmer music, Scottish music, Morris dance music, Balinese Gamelan music. Finnish music, German music, French folk music, Chinese music, Balkan music, Flamenco music, Lithuanian music, Scandinavian music, Basque music, Old-Time music, Bluegrass music, Japanese music, (partial list)
What could this mean??!!
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Martians in sessions
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Black people in sessions
"Are we all being a bit too polite on this potentially sensitive topic? " KML
Not really. Racism exists in Ireland too, look how Irish Travellers get treated. It certainly exists in Sweden and from what I understand in Japan too. Just that in the context of Irish traditional music sessions that I am familiar with in Ireland, Denmark, Sweden & England I haven´t experienced problems because of my skin. Prehaps also because I´m the only black person present I don´t present any kind of threat?
We were thinking a couple of years ago of travelling through the North of Ireland and playing there, but were advised that it would be best to avoid certain pubs, areas or to get in touch with folks who knew where sessions were to be held. This was I realised because Irish traditional music could be a sensitive topic in the North although I had never given it a thought when playing in sessions in the Republic.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
"A Black uillean piper resident in Sweden! You certainly know how to be unique, Steamwilkes!
Hope you don't mind me saying. "
Hi Tom!
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Black people in sessions
Bliss - you're right about Boston, except that they were the FIRST pro basketball organization to field an all-black team. Ironic.
So why have Irish Americans and Black Americans been at odds for so long? Simple economics that go back to the first waves of displaced Irish immigrants in the 1840s. When you have two groups fighting over the same scraps from the table of the establishment, there is bound to be trouble. Imagine being an Irish immigrant in 1847 and being thought of as far more expendable and of less value than a $1500 African slave? Political cartoons from that era constantly were equating black slaves and Irish immigrants as two sides of the same ignorant coin.
Racism exists all over the world - but it usually boils down to the haves vs have nots - Some of the worst racism I have ever witnessed was amongst Africans about other Africans!
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
I'm a huge fan [/sarcasm] of Conde Nast's lovely [/sarcasm] late 19th century cartoons for Harper's Weekly, here's a classic, I believe the subtitle is "Paddy & Sambo":
http://cache.thephoenix.com/secure/uploadedImages/The_Phoenix/Life/Lifestyle_Features/Paddy.jpg
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
Spot on SWFL - If you can find it there is a great book called "Apes and Angels" which studies anti-Irish political cartoons of that era. Especially interesting is the chapter in which English phrenology and physiognomy experts from the 1870s suggest that the Irish may be a lost tribe of Africans based upon "their thick skulls, reluctance to work and rampant escapism though music, story and song."
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
So racism against the Irish took the form of comparing them to black people?
that says it all.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Black people in sessions
Where do you think tap-dancing comes from?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Animals in sessions
rarrrr
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Black people in sessions
"That says it all"
Well Bliss, yes it explains the condition of racism and how it begins in a way. Considering the racist attitudes of that century were even more extreme than they are today, it isn't that surprising to see how an impoverished white group of immigrants would become enraged at being compared to black slaves - thus, the increased tension and rivalry between the two groups as the Irish immigrants sought a way up the economic ladder.
I believe that was your original point wasn't it? That Irish Americans are racist - especially in Boston?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
" I'll be absolutely frank in saying it really p*sses me off that most sessions here are white only cliques." Karate
What tha??? I hate to point this out but you cant force people to play if they dont want too. Why should it p*ss you off?
My dad used to teach trad down at the Eora Centre in Redfern (Education centre for the Aboriginal community) There were a few people who really enjoyed it and one fellow in particular looked like he was going place on the banjo. That was in the 80's and Ive not seen any of them since. They all gave it up and moved on to other things.
Also I hate to point this out...but we are the only ones who actually think trad is cool. Everyone else in the world thinks we are complete loser geeks - its true....I can tell by the way people burst out laughing when I tell them I play irish music on the fiddle.
In all the sessions Ive ever been in I'd be much more worried about the person who comes in and cant play but insists on starting tune after tune, than the mexican, chinese or Aborgigine tune player who sits down at the same time.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
'aborigine' obviously
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
A fascinating episode in history was the Mexican-American War, 1846-1848.
The ranks of the US Army were filled with Catholic Irish and German immigrants who were treated horribly by the Anglo Saxon Protestant officer corps. Violent anti-Catholic and Immigrant Nativism was rampant in America at the time. Los San Patricios were an entire unit of Irish and German artillerymen who left the ranks of the US Army to join the Mexican Army. Many of them were hanged by the US when Mexico surrendered.
The Nativists eventually created first the Know-Nothing Party and then the American Party. Wikipedia:
'...The Nativists went public in 1854 when they formed the 'American Party', which was anti-Irish Catholic and campaigned for laws to require longer wait time between immigration and naturalization. (The laws never passed.) It was at this time that the term "nativist" first appears, opponents denounced them as "bigoted nativists." Former President Millard Fillmore ran on the American Party ticket for the Presidency in 1856. The American Party also included many ex-Whigs who ignored nativism, and included (in the South) a few Catholics whose families had long lived in America. Conversely, much of the opposition to Catholics came from Protestant Irish immigrants and German Lutheran immigrants who can hardly be called "nativists."...'
Anti-Catholic nativism in the 19th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-immigration#Anti-Catholic_nativism_in_the_19th_century
Hmm... [scratches chin]
Hopefully that provides more historical (hysterical?) insight for you, Mr. Bliss.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
Hilarious bb!
Try dancing too. [sighs, hangs head]
It goes something like this:
"...so wait a minute, let me get this straight..." [tries to stop laughing]
SWFL "...sigh, here we go again..."
"...so you play Irish tunes on the fiddle, you sing, you dance...and you're not gay?!?"
"Yes love, it's true, I'm straight, I'm just a nerd, now can I please take you out to dinner?"
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
bb Cruella is right of course. I have always said the only thing that separates us from other tragic groups of nerds is our excessive alcohol consumption and faux-celtic tattoos.
Bliss points out, (correctly and tragically) that Irish immigrants, especially in the US were notoriously racist. I would only change that to "uneducated" people are notoriously racist. We are talking about day-laborers with little or no exposure to the rest of the world and little or no formal education. To be an Irish American, one has to honestly reconcile and admit that our forefathers were both victims and perpetrators of these types of acts.
Bliss you have lived through 25+ years of horrible sectarian violence - you better than most know how humans in desperate situations can turn to the ugliest forms of tribalism in order to survive. That was the only point I was trying to make.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
i agree that its based on heritage,
celtic ancestry/family is a big part people discover/latch onto this music.
i`m an english born honky, by blood i`m mostly irish.
there are many honkies, who, like me, identify with being irish, who at some point decide they have/must have irish blood, which allows them to think that irish culture and music is part of their history.
Whether or not they do actually have irish blood is irrelevant, the colour of their skin *allows* them to claim celtic heritage as their own.
my point is, there are few blacks (with the exclusion of montserratians) who would/could reasonably entertain the notion of having irish ancestry or heritage , any more than i might reasonably entertain the notion that i'm descended from the chiefs of dahomy
i love and play various genres of music, but irish music has a special meaning to me cos i see it as part of my history.
I dont see how you could feel this about this music if you cannot tie it into what you perceive as your roots.
ask yourself what got you involved in this music-its those same reasons that mean people of a different background will be elsewhere on a thursday evening.
If anyone knows of a session on montserrat could you post it here, it may change the perspective a bit.
http://www.thetravelwebsite.co.uk/montserrats-irish-heritage-i180.html
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by the_spelched_briar
Re: Black people in sessions
"i agree that its based on heritage"
Maybe - but 75 percent of most African Americans have some European ancestry, and of that, most of it is from the British Isles.
As you say, it's what part of a person's Heritage they choose to latch onto.
I'm very glad Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy choose to latch onto his Irish heritage instead of his Brazilian - then again think how different Whiskey in the Jar might have sounded with a samba groove behind it.... Hmmmm.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
There are alot of people who have no irish or celtic heritage who play tunes. So I dont agree with the above statement at all.
Also I know a couple of fellas who have english surnames and caused much discussion when we were in Ireland.
I was apparently ok, cause I have the irishest name ever and I have brown hair freckels and green eyes, and so this one musicians was saying "oh but youre irish really, obviously - I mean...look at you" and I was saying "no, I'm not - I'm Australian' And he wouldnt believe that I was australian even with my thick aussie drawl because I look irish and play the fiddle .
One particularly famous muscian was horrified that these two fellas had English surnames and Australian accents, he said 'there are only two types of Australians....Convicts and Irish traitors'......Scary ....10 points who can guess who said it!
So my point is there is rasicm in many forms, and there are also many people without the blood who play tunes.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
I re-read my post and realise it doesn't make much sense...sorry
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Jusa, SWL and any other citizens of the US of A, I am not arguing here, merely having a discussion, and I am not apportioning blame.
I have studied American history to a large degree, and the history of the Irish diaspora in many countries. I know why and where the racism came from, what is harder to understand is how it filtered back to the "homeland" where there were no black people.
Racism was rampant in most countries, and alas still is to some extent, but the battle is slowly being won.
Let's face it, this discussion could easily have said "why are there so few black golfers/swimmers/tennis players/classical musicians and a fair few other things.
I think the lack of black traditional musicians has little to do with naked racism, more a matter of the origin and popularity of the tradition. Take baseball, all the early stars and heroes were Irish, then all "white" race backgrounds, then black and now most stars are what are known as "Latinos". Evolution, and a reflection on the development of the society.
In the 1980s there were few black footballers in England, or even athletes, but now there are many. Evolution, and a big step towards a multi-national society.
Forty years ago Tommy Smith and John Carlos bravely stood on the Olympic podium in one of history's great protests. This year Obama could be president.
Progress and evolution.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Black people in sessions
"have you got the abc for waltzing matilda?
How long have you been playing the ceol?" gooseinthenettles
And this is certainly prejudiced. I say something about trad that someone doesn't agree with and all of a sudden I don't know what I am talking about, how could I after all - I'm Australian, not Irish. So obviously I haven't a clue about tunes.So lame.
Also there is this whole thing here where people who have Irish accents get all of the gigs even though they are total complete hacks and cant play. There are some really great musicians who are here who have Aussie accents and are turned down for gigs because they aren't authentically Irish - even though, they are far better tunes players than these others who are getting all of the gigs. I mean - what tha? Has the world turned topsy turvey?
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
We're on the same page Bliss - what you just wrote there was brilliant. Funny thing is, once people realize how interconnected we all are (the human genome project for example) you come to realize that there is no such thing as race.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
bb, if it's right about who gets the gigs, is it just because they have Irish accents? How do you know that? Are the great musicians with Aussie accents really turned down for gigs because they aren't authentically Irish? Is that what they are told or is that an assumption they are making?
If we're talking pub gigs, it might be the case that many publicans can't tell the difference between someone who can play well and someone who cannot, for a start.
Is it something about how the musicians with Irish accents who you say can't play well go about "marketing" themselves to a clueless publican compared to how the Aussie ones do that. Are the Aussie ones relying on a publican's ability to discern a 'good' player from a 'hack'?
A clueless publican or whoever, might equate an Irish accent with an ability to play Irish music well if they can't actually assess the playing for themselves, more than they will equate an Aussie accent with an ability to play Irish music. I think sometimes it's as simple as that - but not always, it might sometimes be as you say.
If so though, what can Aussie musicians do to overcome that?
My impression - an impression mind - is that Aussie trad musicians (the Irish trad variety), generally don't market themselves very effectively, even if they are great tune players. Maybe it's a cultural aversion to being seen to be doing something so "crass" as "marketing oneself". Dunno, but I'm not so sure that it's *only* a matter of Aussies not getting gigs because they don't have Irish accents.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
As a person of mixed ethnic heritage (Chinese-Scots-Welsh but like bb, Australian through and through) I reckon that life is a smorgasbord and you select the things to which you want to pay attention. While some might say it's my heritage, I have little interest in Chinese traditional music. Chinese dancing doesn't do it for me (far too formal although some of the folk traditions are OK) - but I love diddley and other Celtic traditions, English music and the dance forms associated with them. Exposure is the key. I went to live in the Scottish Highlands between school and uni and chanced upon an Aly Bain concert, then I met my SO shortly after who is steeped in ITM - without those connections, trad might have completely slipped me by. Serendipity - I love it.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
Well - I am looking on it purely as a spectator mind, but have been told by some very well known musicians who are very good at what they do and have been gigging for 12 years that that is the case. Recently they toured with an Irish Dance show in Australia - two musicians from Ireland, the rest from Australia. It was written into the Australian's contract they were *not* allowed to talk to the punters under any circumstances. But the ones from Ireland were allowed. Make of that what you will, but it looks pretty obvious to me.
We did a gig about a month ago and it was for a christening, the Irish woman was lovely - but she was a bit thrown that we weren't Irish. She said 'none of you are Irish? You'd better be good then'....
Also nobody can get a foot in the door of places such as the Irish Embassy because they already have their *Irish* Irish musicians (even if they are crap). But you are probably right about the marketing thing as well - Aussie tend to be a bit more laid back and they also shy away from the whole 'Look at me, look at me playing Irish music' thing. Its probably a combination of both.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
"Is there any ethnic group, other than those whose ancestors come from the British Isles, that's *not* underrepresented at Celtic sessions?"
Actually, I seem to come across a disproportionate number of Jewish musicians (myself included) among the non-Irish participants in sessions in London - I remember one session with six players, four of whom were Jewish. Conversely, I now play in a klezmer band in the middle of Wales, and only two out of the 11 members are Jewish (even one of those is partly of Scots/Cumbrian stock).
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Black people in sessions
bb, perhaps it wasn't about the relative skill of the Australian musicians but more that the agent touring the Irish Dance show was attempting to keep up the fiction that the whole show was from Ireland?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
ok, lets put it this way round....see my previous post for context.
I`m a honky mook banjo player.
i love the sitar, and will one day have a crack at learning it (hahaha)
i live in an area of london with a large ethnicly indian population.
if i had the skill on the sitar that i have on the banjo, and i saw the opportunity to jam/session with other local musicians playing indian music, i would be reluctant to go.
why...?
i wouldnt want to crash someone elses party
i would feel like a fraud
i would stick out like a sore thumb, this might bother me, and might bother other people there.
i dont say these are sensible thoughts, but they are thoughts that might also occur to a black musician thinking about attending an irish session.
---
any road,
as has been said by others, this music is so very very niche,
hardly anyone is into it, never mind their race or creed.
eg in a place the size of london ive only ever found one shop that sells irish tenor banjo strings.
that says it all.....
-----------------------
and another thing, i just re read the OP.
could the OP expand on how the black girl at the session "made a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way"..............?
i`m not familiar with joan armatrading, except that she is a guitarist and singer, who happens to be black.
can you cite any white musicians who make “a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way"..............?
i will elaborate later if my my point is not obvious.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by the_spelched_briar
Re: Black people in sessions
A couple of things jump out at me from what you're saying, bb - first, the Aussies aren't allowed to "talk to the punters", second, the woman saying if you're an Aussie "you better be good".
The commonality, to me, between these comments/events is that it is all in the perception of the person engaging the musicians.
In the Dance Show issue, it seems that the promoter wants to maintain an aura of "Irishness", by having musicians who have an Irish accent - so the "punters" are delivered some type of foreign mystique - maybe because he / she perceives that that is what the market - the punters in this case - actually want. (I know it sounds mercenary and cynical to do that, but hey, that's what a good deal of promoters want.)
It might be the same with doing a didje concert in Ireland - maybe the punters might want to hear an Australian accent with that rather than an Irish one. (It's simplistic I know.) Same with the Irish christening woman - some just aren't used to equating an Aussie accent with Irish music. And what does she mean by "good" anyway - would she think Lunasa for example are "good" - or just good at marketing - or maybe a combination of both.
I think it might be a combination of being "good" as well as giving the "punters" what they want to hear in the context in which they want to hear it - IF getting gigs and / or making a profession out of trad is the goal; and "punters" at a session might have a different set of expectations than "punters" at a Lunasa concert for that matter.
I know it really wrankles a lot of trad musicians but I think if gigs are the goal, depending on the level of involvement you want with that, then it comes down to sitting down and working out what it is that the "punters" want, and tailoring what you do to deliver. If the punters *love* you, then the promoters will come with cap in hand - thinking they can make a lot of money out of you.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Hehehe - make alot of money out of playing trad!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
bb, getting a gig a semi-regular / guest / resident band at an Irish Embassy if you're not Irish sounds like the hardest gig in the world to get! I'd steer away from lining up for that particular one, if I wasn't Irish.
"Look at me, look at me playing Irish music" thing, bb, is probably the idea that a lot of Aussie tune players have of what marketing yourself is. It isn't of course - playing irish music as a full time job and living is as much a business as anything else. Puts "Look at me, look at me being a teacher" into a different light doesn't it? Advertising and marketing oneself is just part of life - but you have to make sure you are delivering what the "punters" or the "employers" want, and if what you're doing doesn't quite do that, being prepared to change it - IF getting gigs is the goal.
So - how's you're Irish accent abilities?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Lunasa would make heaps of money out of what they do.
Promoters must rub their hands together with glee when they see them coming to town!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Cruella bb et al. I'm still trying to figure out who Karate is from the various people I've met at sessions, and whether he or she really does indeed have a PhD in quantum physics - if s/he does I'll forgive the poor spelling (sorry karate - please don't chop me!) But anyway I think I'll stand by what KarWocToc says. Or rather I'll put my own interpretation on it. You went to our old session at the Woodman one time. We have played countless pubs in South London - all Irish, or English, all white. Yet the proportion of black people of the population in Lewisham borough is very high. And I'm curious as to why no-one has yet mentioned Ignatius Sancho,
http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Sancho.html#1 black composer of English music, many of the standards in the English tradition and probably some which have seeped into the Irish tradition. Also I don't think you can compare Australian aboriginal experience of the white man (coming along and telling them they don't have a right to their ancestral land any more) to a black British experience. To just lump people together because of their skin colour, or their experience of white colonialism strikes me as a bit *racist* to be honest. Yet again, here we have people here on this website blowing off without having done their homework, ach well, it's a public site after all.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
"Australian aboriginal experience of the white man (coming along and telling them they don't have a right to their ancestral land any more)" -
and that isn't *lumping people together because of their skin colour"?
*All* white men, or *some* white men.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Key - I was only bringing that particular thing up because - I have no idea about what goes on in England, I didnt know that there were alot of black people in Lewisham etc. I know nothing about it. I do however know about Aboriginal People and White Australian and that kind of thing. I think its very dangerous to talk about things you dont know. Hence why I brought up Aborginal People playing Irish music. I'm sorry - but that is not racist.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
The only thing I know about England - is that every second day there seems to be kids murdering each other....quite sick really. Obviously whatever you guys are doing is not working.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Duijera - you don't honestly expect me to answer that do you.
OK, bb, but it is a totally different thing surely you must agree. I think Karate's original point was about the dearth of black (ie of afro-carribean and african origin) in sessions, in areas (eg London) where there is a high proportion of blacks in the population. It seems a shame if they're missing out on loads of fun!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Yes - -I see where you are coming from. I still maintain that it is ok for me to draw parallels - considering I don't live in London and all..
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Depends on the answer you'd give, Key. Then again, maybe don't go there.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Just saw your latest post cruella - if you want to stick your claws in get it right. I'm from Glasgow. England is a picnic. The murder rate in Scotand is currently 3.5 times that of England. The murder rate in Glasgow is the highest of any city in western Europe, about 8 times that of England. The crime rate in the peripheral housing estates (Drumchapel, Easterhouse, Castlemilk) spirals out of belief. Oh, and by the way these are all white people killing each other. My ma and da still live in the Drum in their 80's and they think it's a great place. Go figure. I can't work it out.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Hmm, yeah I suppose - as long as it is understood that what you are talking about is "parallels". Anyway don't be listening to me too much.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
"The only thing I know about England - is that every second day there seems to be kids murdering each other"
Yeah, cos THAT's not a national stereotype...
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Black people in sessions
KML Is there any music in the Glasgow estates?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
Oh my god - Key - if I didn't know better I'd think that you were purposely taking everything I say the wrong way on purpose to somehow prove that I am racist. I wasn't talking black or white kids, just the murder rate in general. I know Scotland's worse - I just didn't want to bring it up because you are Scottish and I didn't want you to get offended and think I was just trying to get a dig in. But seriously - take whatever I say anyway that you want. We can't all be scientists and mega smart like you, so maybe I came across differently than I intended. Sorry I'll try to be clearer next time.....now where did I put my damned PhD entitled 'The way people act on trad internet websites'.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Yeah Joe in England it's mostly black on black. But in the schemes of Glasgow they've perfected the art. At least they're not racist - they'll murder anybody - black brown or white.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
in the city where i live, which is not a city with a substantial irish cultural community or a significant core of veteran irish players, comhaltas or otherwise, there are no fewer regular itm sessioners of african descent than there are regulars of asian or latino descent. these folks are people who describe coming to the music through the same "conversion experience" you hear from northern-european-descent regular sessioners here, whether of irish extraction or otherwise---they heard it somewhere, and that was it. i also have a close friend from toronto by way of trinidad, now living in japan, who does not play the music but is crazy about it and has been known to busk in the toronto underground singing pogues songs.
having said all that, a waggish explanation might be that in the u.s., itm remains the one euro-american musical form that african-americans have not transformed with their creative genius and unleashed upon the globe in the form of blues, rock, jazz, etc.
a more sobering, less waggish thought might be this truth---americans of irish descent remain oblivious, i.e., in almost clownish denial, about the degree to which they are still seen, with considerable justification, by african-americans as, racist redneck crackers. Bull Connor, anyone? after the civil war, the freed slaves & their descendants were seen as competition by the poor irish who came over in the mid & late 1800s (not the plantation-owner irish of "Gone With the Wind"). these irish, and yes, other non-anglo-saxon poor european immigrant groups, beat, lynched & brutalized blacks who came north to try to get away from the Klan & company. they systematically kept them out of trade unions, and much worse. Chief O'Neill, i would wager hard money, looked very different to black chicagoans of his time than he might to us. (the iroquois tribes still refer to george washington as, "Slayer of Children," but that is another story.)
there is a brilliant work of history by a harvard faculty member on this, titled "How The Irish Became White." it's the old marxist story of the have-nots taking out their misery on other have-nots, rather than on the real target, the haves. all this stuff helped create the pathologies of the black ghetto & the so-called black underclass, & crime, which earned more hostility from the working-class irish who helped create the problem in the first place. the irish weren't the only ones, but they are famous for it because they themselves were the "n-words" of the american immigrant groups before they "became white," and on way they "became white" was, locking the doors on african-americans. irish-americans just LOOOOOVE to see themselves as the friends of the underdog and victims of genocidal oppression themselves, and they have lied to themselves and denied this story for decades. but sorry......it is true. and bad feelings linger. i have had numerous african-american friends freeze, then respond with frosty politeness when i tell them i love & play irish music. when i was living in san francisco & one friend of color saw my claddagh ring, he just said, yeah, all the racists out on the Avenues (formerly irish-american working-class strongholds) wore those......it's changing. but it's still a fact.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Black people in sessions
France looked really nice through the Tour de France.
How's the murder rate there?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
"It seems a shame if they're missing out on loads of fun!"
Am I missing out on fun because I prefer walking to quad-biking?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Black people in sessions
Nate Ryan ~ I lived all over the MetroMess, as we so fondly referredd to the sprawl. Lastly in Oak Cliff. I grew up loving Juneteenth celebrations. Not to mention getting my black friends to take me to church just for the music. How can you not love a black Jesus?
One thing has always been true about Irish music & I do not have to say what it is. Everyone is welcome. All that is required is a love of the tunes.
Now to look at me you might think I look Irish. Fair enough but there is some Native American from my fathers' mother & African - American from my mother's fathers' side.
Who was it said, "I'm Irish, I'm black.(?)
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
Hey bb - I'm sorry, I'm not trying to twist it round. But you made a point about UK murder rates. It kind of makes my heart skip a beat when I think of all the young lads on these estates, a few decades ago could have been me, all stabbing each other, and no clog, there's no music as we know it on those estates. They are very depressing, poor and cultureless communities, not even communities, just assemblages of low rent housing. It's no wonder Gordon Brown took a shafting in Glasgow East. I didn't mean to bicker with you back there, just a thing a bit close to my heart. My apologies.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
I really liked a Brit t.v. doco recently which arranged, with the guest participants consent of course, for their genetic profiles. All of the guests apparently purported to be English through and through. The results were spectacular. One terribly English old tweedy-type dame turned out reportedly to have a large proportion of her genetic background from China (probably stemming back to the Mongol invasions of Europe), as well as Native North American!
Other "100%" white Brits had sub-saharan genetic background, as well as southern european, middle eastern, and one even reportedly had a typical romany gypsy genetic profile.
Makes it all a bit academic doesn't it?
So much seems to hinge on what your accent sounds like.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Why do these bloody governments keep building these ridiculous, soul-less housing estates, and just perpetuate these social disasters?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
now you *have* got me going DD. What? how did they do the genetic analysis? was it mitochondrial DNA or chromosomal? I don't understand, any chance you might be more specific?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
It O.K. Danny
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
I'm more worried about what Key Maniac Lad was saying about the "death of black people in sessions". Can you expand on that a bit, Key? I mean, is it to do with the high crime rate, or are black people more likely than other races to die spontaneously of natural causes whilst listening to the music?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Dow
* *
It is OK
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
Ho! I've not long joined an African choir, singing freedom songs. There are 70 odd choirists most of whom have never been to Africa (including me) ... but the songs are beautiful and we are having a lovely time rehearsing for some very special little public performances in some incredible places (including in the rocks in Trephina Gorge). Much of the choir is made up of singers who have been involved since it started and this is their third year with the choir. They sing beautifully. It is a wonderful community activity. I doubt there is anyone who could say we shouldn't be doing this. In fact it is fantastic of our choir master to share the songs, the melodies and the complex harmonies, with us.
Irish Traditional Music is not played here because it isn't the same social community activity that this choir is. Sorry guys and gals, its not about colour of skin, its about availability and inclusivity. (I am no great singer, but this is not competitive and people like me can blend right in and get enormous satisfaction from it) ...
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Black people in sessions
Sorry, I should have said "We sing beautifully"
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Black people in sessions
Yes Key, it was a fascinating story. They had about five gung-ho Brits who thought they were 100% / no other background. Turned out they had huge chunks of background from many places. It sounded to me like you would have to go back to pre-1066 to find a vast majority of northern european only genetic background among the English. Since then, various invasions, the age of exploration, etc has led to a lot of influences. The result is that there is an "attitude or belief" in the present day of some sort of genetic "purity" when the reality is very different.
I cannot find any references to the doco on internet searches, damn it, but it was great entertainment. I think it was mitochondrial DNA profiling, from memory.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Spontaneous combustion in sessions, Dow, more likely.
It's the Guinness getting all shaken up by those jigs and reels.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
And when the bodhran kicks in, up they go!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
I did read somewhere that we each have as much phosporus in our bodies as in the average box of Redheads...dangerous when the Flame in the Fiddle comes around..
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
Here you are, Key. It was a doco called "100% English" made by Channel 4. Here are a few blog links referring to it. Hilarious. Gary Bushell was presented with his genetic profile which indicated that he had a sub-saharan ancestor in recent generations. (You'll know these locals better than I do...never heard of Gary Bushell before this.)
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=485883
http://libcom.org/forums/news/documentary-called-100-english-13-11-06-dna-ancestor-profiling-as-tool-to-freak-out-racists-nationalists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100%25_English
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
I hate to get back to the original point of the thread, but maybe
the majority of people of African origin, just aren't into it. A lot of
southern African styles are based on acute syncopation, and
complex harmony, so why would they be attracted to a genre
of music where the use of these devices is a lot of the time shunned and discouraged. Also there is a cultural attachment
from most of the non Irish players of the music around the world that might go back to their Northern European origins whatever, so a lot of people with African origin may not have
this motivation. Irish music is about singular melody. African music can be about multiple melodies.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
Why do so few Irish people play Irish music?
In Australia 60% of the population have some Irish ancestry. Yet
there are hardly any sessions, even in Sydney and Melbourne.
Most of the regulars at my session are of English and Scottish origin.
My people are German Jews. My Irish/Scottish wife hates Irish music.
I think the question is a little weird - why aren't there more Lebanese
people playing Tunes? Where are the French?
Where are the Columbians? Why don't more
Orthodox Jews play? What about the Basques? etc etc
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Hup
Re: Black people in sessions
Maybe a lot of people back in the bad old days who got out of old world places didn't want to know anything more about them, they were just happy to get out alive from famines, persecutions, etc.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
The sessions are so few because they have become elitist
and non inclusive. Unfortunately Irish music will eat itself in this country.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
Very good point Hup. I think about that heaps. And why is the Melbourne scene far bigger than the Sydney scene? Especially as Sydney has a bigger population. We have 3 sessions a week in Sydney (two that are on the same time), I think there is at least 9 a week in Melbourne.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Chunboi -maybe where you are they are elitist, but they're not like that in Sydney.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
I often find that people call sessions 'elitist' or 'snobby' if said person isn't actually very good and finds the session standard a bit high. I know alot of very good musicians up in Brisbane and not one of them are in any way snobby. In fact they are lovely, lovely people.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Yes I agree chuneboi slim! ... but gee I wish here on the yellowboard I wasn't soooooooo invisible. Almost a non-existence.
(sooooo I've been rrrrrrrrrrreally busy with the puppies, but not too busy to keep me eye on here if not much else.)
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Black people in sessions
Ooooooooo a few posts got in before mine came up.
No, I don't think Irish Trad Music will eat itself because it is elitist ... because it isn't really. It is simply that you need to be able to play it to play in a session ... whereas this community choir doesn't require anything except that you want to get in there and sing ... and then the learning and singing is done together.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Black people in sessions
Melbourne, in my understanding, traditionally had a more *consciously* Irish community than Sydney did. Sydney was a much more anglo city than Melbourne.
In around 1922 the Melbourne Irish community marched en masse in relation to the Irish civil war - I think there were tens of thousands of people march.
I don't think the same thing happened in Sydney at all.
Adelaide by contrast had very little Irish immigration at all historically.
Maybe the situation with Irish music in these places is a result of these historical trends. Boston might be a good analogy.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
I know probably all the people you are referring to Cruella. I never said snobby. What I am referring to is a general reluctance of people in sessions to include the punters in the vibe of the session. Let's face it the punters fill the pubs.
If a punter wants to come up and sing "Maggie" or jump around the floor without getting thrown out I personally would play it for him , but I observe less and less people are prepared to read the mood of the room and move accordingly.
Its a lot different to the vibe in Eire. Or the vibe in Dooley's before it was sold for that matter. of course this is just perspective frm my little corner of the world.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
While I personally don't think color has anything to do with one's taste in music...your exposure to specific genres of music as you grow up is more likely. Irish music hasn't "typically" been part of the black culture, however, if you want to see a great black Irish fiddler, check out:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=63432046
And I also have another black fiddle friend who plays a right handed fiddle upside down and backwards (lefty)!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by banjobabe
Re: Black people in sessions
I see what youre saying Chuneboi, and I agree, personally I am from the camp that feel that I shouldnt have to play the fields of Athenry if asked. But I found that that is exactly the same in Ireland - if some fool comes up acting a bollix they usually tell them to get lost. Or worse, they sit there smiling and being overly nice and as soon as said person or tune wrecker or whatever has gone they bitch and bitch and bitch behind the persons back. But then again - it all depends on the session doesnt it.
I know you know all the people I know in Brisbane - seeing as you live there and all.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bb
Re: Black people in sessions
Dow you twister. I said dearth, not death.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
Yes I've noticed that Cruella. Irish people are less inclined to say no even when that's what they mean. It's charming but complicated. I would treat punters on an individual basis. If someone looks like they're going to be entertaining or they're
genuine I always would oblige.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
Following up on the "100% English" documentary (which was brillant, and should serve as a warning to a certain type of person everywhere), Brian Sykes, a Professor of genetics at Oxford has written a book about the genetic makeup of the Isles and here are his conculsions:
Conclusions: Sykes reaches several interesting conclusions:
1. Throughout the Isles, the basic and dominant genetic heritage is Celtic.
2. The basic Celtic heritage is modified by contributions from the other ethnic groups. The contribution from these groups varies from essentially zero up to a maximum of about 30%.
3. The Picts were closely related to the Celts, perhaps indistinguishable so.
4. The largest non-Celtic contribution is found in the northern islands, the Orkneys and Shetlands, where the Viking contribution is about 30%.
5. The Celtic settlers appear to have migrated from the northwest area of the Iberian peninsula.
6. The maternal and paternal lines often differ. The maternal line is often more Celtic, suggesting that women were less mobile than men (e.g., Viking raiders). The paternal lines suggest a disproportionate genetic contribution by a relatively small number of men (presumably those in powerful positions - the "Genghis Khan effect").
7. The maternal and paternal lines are fairly consistent in the Orkneys and Shetlands, suggesting that they were settled peacefully by Vikings who brought their wives with them.
This is a cut-and-paste from a review of the book on the Amazon site: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saxons-Vikings-Celts-Genetic-Britain/dp/0393330753/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217323183&sr=8-1
My point is the differences between us in the Isles is largely cultural rather than genetic. In all honesty, it doesn't matter a jot where you're from - it's the attitudes to one another and the avoidance of stereotypes that's important. It's good to see most people on this thread seem to be positive in this respect.
You don't need to belong to a certain race to appreciate that type of music - you might view it differently if it's the tradition you're brought up in - but that doesn't mean you love or respect it more than someone who discovered it and it clicked with them.
P.S. Gary Bushell is not representative of the English any more than Jimmy Cricket is of the Irish.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Black people in sessions
"You don't need to belong to a certain race to appreciate that type of music - you might view it differently if it's the tradition you're brought up in - but that doesn't mean you love or respect it more than someone who discovered it and it clicked with them."
Exactly. Well said, SJ.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
How about Jiminy Cricket.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Jiminy Cricket was Irish?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
You tell me.
http://www.acmeanimation.com/JIMINY.jpg
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Wow. I;ve always kicked against stereotypes but must have let this one completely slip by. Did he play bodhran?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
Nah, a dancer I'd say.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
i saw a bbc docs tracing peoples genetic roots from their mitochondrial DNA (not the one previously mentioned)
it was from a few years ago, and studied a few black individuals. One of whom was a young londoner, who wore his black identity and culture very proudly.
when he was told that his mitochondrial DNA showed he was ostensibly european, he couldnt/wouldnt accept this.
later on he was told, "well theres a little bit of this in there too", and they took him off to the part of africa loosely linked to his dna results, at which point he felt instantly at home; he felt he had found his motheland.
i didnt think (nor did the program suggest) he was racist or bigoted because of this, he just couldnt accept having his identity shaken like that.
another one, john hurt (famous uk actor and top geezer) was on a family tree tracing docu recently.
he grew up in england, but there was a story in the family that way back when they were from ireland.
at some point he visits ireland, falls in love with the place, and eventually goes to live there.
during the making of the prog, it transpires that he aint
irish at all, its a myth.
he is quite devastated by this, when asked if it changes things for him he says "of course it bloody changes things! being irish was an absolute banker"
i have no real point to make here, but this does tie in with my previous post that people will develop their ancestal story according to how they look, regardless of any other evidence.
------
i`d like to pick up a point made by steamwilkes.
quote:
"I haven´t experienced problems because of my skin[at sessions]. Prehaps also because I´m the only black person present I don´t present any kind of threat?"
this is a good point to ponder on.
there are many of us who might think its great to have a couple of non-white faces at a session, but if you walked into your local session and you were the only honky there....well, many people wouldnt like this.
---
And i would still like to know what the OP meant by saying the black girl at his session did “a fine job in a joan armatrading kind of way “
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by the_spelched_briar
Re: Black people in sessions
What do geezers play?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Tap dancer. Of course.
I saw the John Hurt documentary. He was gutted to find that his family history was a myth. He clearly valued his Irish heritage. I thought it was a rather cruel expose in the end, although I guess he must have agreed to it.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
Some months ago a British MP (sorry, name escapes me) actually complained that non white people were under represented at 'The Proms' I wonder what his solution was?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Black people in sessions
"Jessie Smith the fiddler is black and very active."
If you're talking about Jesse Smith the former fiddler in Danu, he's not black. He's from Baltimore, Maryland in the US. I knew him when he was growing up here, and indeed I just saw his mother a couple of weeks ago. He's definitely not black. Did you perhaps meet him right after he returned from a holiday in Spain?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by johnkerr
Re: Black people in sessions
DD. Geezers normally play Blues harmonica.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
Some communities take their culture with them, Irish centres/clubs in England for example. Other don't, or maybe they haven't settled in large enough numbers, Scottish clubs/centres in England, or lack of. There may well be Scottish clubs in other countries..Canada, New Zealand etc. perhaps my parents just settled too close to home.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by mehere
Re: Black people in sessions
Aha..harmonic geezers. Sounds like a pretty cool club.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
Geeez.....I thought geezers played geezes (whatever they are).
Isn't Jiminy Cricket a popular brand of cell phone?
Originally, my ancestors came to the United States from Ireland and Scotland while this country was still a British colony. Since then, they have intermarried with people from various other ethnic groups. As a result, even though I look like a stereotypical "white" person, my ancestry is considerably mixed and there is nothing I can do about it.
I certainly cannot get into a time machine and tell my ancestors not to marry this person or that person. Of course, if I succeed in persuading my ancestor to marry someone else, I might cease to exist.
On my mother's side, I am descended from a family who owned and operated a plantation in south Arkansas before a certain most un-Civil War. If "Massa" ever went to the slave quarters for a certain type of "fun and games" with the female slaves, I may have some African mixed in along with everything else.
One of the people who helped start the local Irish Session and helped keep it going is a Jewish woman whose ancestry is German and Hungarian.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Black people in sessions
Why would you want to do anything about it? Don't you think it is interesting having all those backgrounds?
The lady who started your session might have an Irish background, heaps of Hungarians do actually. Historically, the Austro-Hungarian military had quite a few Irish field marshals as well of course as large swathes of their armies from Ireland. I once met a Hungarian person by the name of Fennessy. Hungarian as. The name is Irish. One of his ancestors obviously one of the Wild Geese three hundred years before or so. Ironic that his father's family was still in the Austro-Hungarian military up to his grandfather's time early last century.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
"Those" people & "us" people ;)
Irish music has historically travelled out of Ireland ~ back again ~ etc. & so forth.
There are pockets of Irish culture everywhere. Is Ireland now beginning to experience the growth of other cultures coming from all over to live in Ireland?
Perhaps the experience, over time, will contribute to what we call traditional Irish music.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
Big time that is happening in Ireland, and quickly.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
* *
As I read my post. I realize it is not the 1st time. Irish music has been international for generations. In & out of Ireland.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Black people in sessions
http://cdbaby.com/cd/jdukes
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Black people in sessions
Not many "Brown people" either.
Do these people come in the pub when the session isn't in sitting, or is the session a bit of an irrelevance and Black people don't come in the pub at all?
If the pinko, liberal, beardy Guardian readers had anything to do with it, they would close the session as it didn't comply with their cultural ticklist for accesibility, even though the "target group" may not be interested in ITM.
Be honest, if you went to Africa, you might hear concertinas, but you would hear very little ITM played - isn't it surprising many Africans don't go to sessions?
Does it really matter if, for obvious reasons, they aren't really interested in ITM?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Black people in sessions
A young friend of mine from afro-European roots is a fantastic fiddler in the Belfast session scene - she is gorgeous and more Irish than any of us, being born (?) and bred here. We aso have a ginger bodhran player and translucent me, a real melting pot. Me thinks you are stirring the sh*t. Why aren't there more protestants playing ITM?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by iwerzon
Re: Black people in sessions
Well, I'm a proddie (lapsed)
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Black people in sessions
I'm a Guardian reader (practicing).
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Black people in sessions
Wow, what did I miss? I just got back from my all-Chinese Jewish Klezmer session, it was smokin. Hoo wee.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
I think there are too many people in this world who just have to insist on judging a book by its cover.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Black people in sessions
Duijera Dubh, I believe my background is interesting and I wouldn't change it even if I could. Unfortunately, though, there are still a lot of fools who seem to disapprove of such a thoroughly mixed up background like mine.
There are still too many people here (in Arkansas and other states) who are unable and/or unwilling to let go of the past and try to move forward to a better future for themselves as well as their children and grandchildren. They want revenge for the ways in which their parents or grandparents were mistreated.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Black people in sessions
1: I am a Guardian Reader
2: Totally agree with Cruella about useless Irish people playing all over the world when the natives are much better.
3: Jimmy Cricket grew up in different times. as the "Folk Revival" was under way he may have heard the Dubliners and such, but he was more into "The Troggs" and pop music.
Hung about the "Palm Grove" cafe with Squire Gorman, Skipper McCann, Geordie Williams et al. He did not play bodhran, but who did then?
4: Always liked the first words spoken by a friend of mine in Norn'Ireland, after waking up following an operation after he had been shot. "Look on the bright side, you could live in Florida".
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Black people in sessions
Ooooh Bliss, nice dig at SWFL and Florida.
Forget all this - why don't more IRISH people play their own traditional music? Last time I was there, all I could find was American Country Western and Gawd awful Industrial techno-club music.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
I once started a great row by submitting a discussion "Is Traditional Music wasted on The Irish", my point being that they were all into C and W.
The story about the guy who had been shot is actually true.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Black people in sessions
"You know, nobody in Ireland listens to this sh*t."
- Paul Morrison, County Antrim, proprietor of O'Sullivan's Bar, North Fort Myers, FL, said to SWFL Fiddler sometime in 2003 during SWFL's first gig.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
LOL - Bliss, I have no doubt the indignant crowd leaped right through their computer monitors at you over that one...
I have no doubt your gun shot story was true. My pals from Norn Iron have a lovely collection of scars to brag about - not to mention an impressive collection of rubber bullets! Those suckers are huge!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Black people in sessions
Another pertinent quote to my situation:
"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
- WC Fields
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Black people in sessions
"If you're talking about Jesse Smith the former fiddler in Danu, he's not black. He's from Baltimore, Maryland in the US. I knew him when he was growing up here, and indeed I just saw his mother a couple of weeks ago. He's definitely not black. Did you perhaps meet him right after he returned from a holiday in Spain?" John K.
I´m quite aware that Jessie is from Balitmore, and his mother is Donna Long and I´m quite sure that I read an interview somewhere some time back, possibly the English magasine FolkRoots, where it was stated that Jessie´s father was an Afro-American, a jazz musician? I bumped into Jessie in at the Tönder folk Festival in Denmark some years ago when Danu was playing there and I got a very strong vibe from him. I´ve done a google search but couldn´t find any verification, so I could be mistaken, although I hope not, there aren´t many of us having a go at this music. What´s Spain got to do with anything?
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by Steamwilkes
Re: Black people in sessions
bb, The answer for those of us who live several timezones away from the rest of the good folk on this board is to cultivate Irish accents and keep the birth certs well hidden when the promoters come out to pay. Top o' the morning to ye! (and I guess that's another stereotype - but a nice way to start the day downunder).
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
WHY does it matter ?!?!?!?
And WHO really cares?!?!?!
I'm guessing that you don't live / play in New York City.....or the US, for that matter....we have GREAT traditional musicians of MANY ethnicities regularly playing "Irish traditional music "
And we are richer for it!
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Ceolagusrince
Re: Black people in sessions
Yep. You have it there. That's the point of this thread.
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Black people in sessions
All I said in my first post was black people are under-represented in sessions in London, and it may become an issue in the future in Ireland. I was not saying that the colour of your skin has an impact on well or not you play this music. So that of course dosen't matter.
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Cosmic Ray
Re: Black people in sessions
I'd like to hear a Congolese Pop Band back a fiddle player.
Or Ali Farka Toure backing concertina on a slip jig.
Any other ideas?
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Black people in sessions
Jeeves, you posted the link for Josh's new CD and it reminded me of a "funny" little anecdote involving him. There is another African American friend of mine who comes to sessions who mildly resembles him (similar height, bald heads of sorts) and they constantly are confused for one another, primarily during one of the festivals that we all attend. Probably the most extreme situation I ever witnessed was a lady at the festival who was talking to my friend and insisted that he was playing flute at a session. My friend in fact plays accordion so obviously it was Josh who she had seen play. My friend informed the lady of this fact, but she was persistent that no it was my friend that she had seen play. She never believed my friend and eventually he had to just walk away from the conversation. During the week-long festival my friend estimates that he gets mistaken for Josh 50-60 times, and it is often by the same people who have met him many times over the years that he has attended the festival. Guess this is a story to just demonstrate how little exposure that many Irish musicians have to African American people that they can't differentiate two people.
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Jason G
Re: Black people in sessions
Sorry I haven't time to plough through all contributions here so point may have already been made on this related issue. Why are Japanese people always so good at playing Irish music? - I've yet to meet anyone from that country who wasn't competent on their instrument. Maybe we share something in our DNA make-up!
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Black people in sessions
Handy observation, bannerman. In my experience, Japanese people work really hard and practise whatever it is they are pursuing in an extremely structured and detailed way. Those Japanese, for example, who choose to try to learn English, do so, many of them through an absolutely dedicated study of English grammar. Almost with exception Japanese students of English, in my experience, have a knowledge of English grammar far far in excess of that of any native English speaker. (The problem is though, that a complete knowledge of English grammar may not make you an English speaker, many would no doubt agree.)
I think the formality of Japanese society, somewhat like, I would think, the constraints and restrictions of Victorian English society, leads many young people in Japan today, I think, to seek some more relaxed pursuits as an outlet from the stringent norms. Irish music I think provides that, but still allows / provides / requires disciplined study and practice, which the society values and enjoys, I believe.
Don't think it is much to do with DNA - but hey,,,maybe!
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in sessions
I have a hard time imagining a Japanese player wanting to be seen playing their instrument in public, let alone at a session, before they were competent on their instrument. I don't think they'd want to put themselves forward as a player with the contradiction of not being very accomplished on their instrument first. Big loss of face to do something like that I would have thought.
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Black people in