I have just bought myself an Ozark mini-tenor guitar. It is a lovely and inexpensive instrument but it comes in that classic tuning of CGDA instead of GDAE and I would appreciate some advice of what to do with it. The string gauges right now are approximately
32 26 17 11
Or at least they are the sizes of the spare set of strings that the shop gave me.
I understand that one option is to capo it on the second and get DAEB. Right now I am toying with DADG (low to high) so it is like the bass 4 strings of my guitar. That is still not ideal for melody though.
If I were to change it to GDAE what sort of gauge should I be looking at? There is one snag though:
In this advert (not the shop I got it from - that was the fantastic Scayles in Edinburgh) it does not recommend using GDAE with this model. Is that because of the integrity of the neck?
Does anyone else have any experience with this particular instrument? What did you do?
You could use this string tension calculator - http://mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html
to work out what the total tension on the guitar is now, at it's existing tuning and with current string gauges. Then you can use the same calculator to try different gauges and pitches - as long as you don't exceed the original total tension you should be OK.
Not entirely accurate, but near enough.
Keith
It does not have an option for a tenor guitar - or indeed anything with 4 strings. The tension on a bouzouki, for example would be much greater due to the paired strings. Is there an equivalent program out there that includes 4 stringed instruments?
My tenor guitar is 23.5" scale length, with Nickel strings (wound A), and it looks like this:
len 23.5"
E .011" PL == 16.66#
A, .018" NW == 17.21#
D, .026" NW == 15.63#
G,, .040" NW == 16.15#
total == 65.65#
If you like the sound of it where it is, figure out what the average tension is in the current tuning, and then you can figure it backwards to have it tell you the approximate string gauges you need.
Example:
len 22"
E 18# PL
A, 18# PB
D, 18# PB
G,, 18# PB
That would find you approximate gauges for 18 pounds of tension on Phosphor Bronze strings (with a plain steel E), and a scale length of 22". You'll want to plug in your own numbers.
In general, I have found the a consistent tension across all the strings helps you get good volume and intonation balance.
And if you have a fixed pin bridge, you may need to get a luthier to compensate the saddle for the new tuning. And if you are using heavier string gauges, you'll probably need to file the nut to handle them...
I've tried both tunings on several tenor guitars, and my final decision was to go with the original tuning of cdae capoed up or playinhg tunes in open depending on the key.
I am not sure why the instrument sounds better that way, but I suspect that it is built for cdae and the lower tuning doesn't resonate as well. Banjos, on the other hand, have no problems with the two tuning sets probably because they are very robust instruments meant to be played loud.
Do you know the scale (distance from bridge to nut) on your instrument? If it is a short scale (less than 19inches) you won't have good luck with the standard 40-12 string gages for GDAE since the G string will sound very floppy.
I have just acquired a Gold Tone Cello Banjo and am playing in the CDAE tuning. It is not that hard to make the transition from GDAE for most tunes and you can always capo up two as long as you play tunes that a whistle can play - you lose the G string notes that way. On the other hand a tune like Castle Kelly sounds great in the CGDA tuning.
The scale length is about 21.75", and it says GDAE tuning "not recommended for this instrument" for some reason... Maybe the things you were talking about, Mike...
Pete - I am trying to use your string gauge program but it is not liking my C string. I am getting this:
len 54cm
A .11" PL == 11.02kg
D .17" PL == 11.73kg
G, .26" PB == 11.13kg
C, .32" PB == bad string type: java.lang.illegalArgumentException
total == 33.88kg
What am I typing wrong? What should I do?
Incidentally I was chatting to an amazing tenor banjo/tenor guitar player in the session today (*missing name drop alert*) - seems like fate doesn't it - Never met him before, recommended to talk to him and in he walks - and he said that his TB is a bit longer length but that he uses .13 .20 .30 and .40 strrings. He didn't forsee any problems. Things are looking up already with this instrument.
I would say that a tenor guitar is designed to be tuned CGda, and the fact that you have put on different gauges of string, or at least want to, will not neccesarily make it work well as a lower- tuned instrument. The body size and design, in an optimum situation, have been designed to work well at the pitches and tensions listed - trying to make it another instrument might be counterproductive. Why didn't you just buy an octave mandolin if that was what you wanted ?
Older contributors may remember seeing the odd attempt, from the late '60s' onwards, to make a bass acoustic guitar by fixing a bass neck to one of those heavily-built acoustic guitar bodies, like an Eko for instance. They never worked satisfactorily because a better design was needed to make the body resonate that extra octave down.
You may find you have the same problem, even though you are not trying to tune down quite so far..
To be honest I bought the tenor guitar because I liked the sound and had been looking for a tenor guitar. There was perhaps the opportunity to get a larger bodied one elsewhere (although I never saw the instrument) but I liked the idea of the smaller one because it seemed less of a stretch for playing melody.
As far as buying an octave mandolin goes I already have a bouzouki (and a mandolin) so there would be no point. I prefer the idea of the single strings that are found on a tenor guitar and do not want a banjo because it sounds too banjo-like!
Anyway, whilst CGDA is seen as the traditional tuning they can be found in all sorts of tunings just like guitars, bouzoukis, fiddles and so forth.
In short, what Reverend said, but more long-winded! :-o
Anyway can someone please explain why my limited computer brain can not figure out my problem with that string gauge program? Or maybe work it out for me?
The 23.3 inch tenor is usually strung Gdae 12 22 30 36 and Dgbe 12 16 25 32 and cgda 23w26w 30w 38w (not for old delicate instruments).This is a wonderful instrument, I love making them ,just not that loud for session playing .I have an article some where on them ,can send a pdf if anyone is interested .
In the end I ended up (after some advice and playing with the instrument from the guy in the shop) with
E .013" PL
A, .020" PL
D, .032" PB
G,, .039" PB
They seem ok and certainly are not bending the neck. I do not like the A string as it is very thick for a single string and even has a kink in it near the peg! The shop did not have any wound 20s though. They started at 23 and that seemed too high.
I will no doubt swap the string over at a later date. I need to get the pegs/bridge looked at anyway as the bridge comes with next to no groove in them and the E peg in particular is liable to come flying out across the room when tuning up. The pegs are also very roughly cut along their own groove. It is a shame for an otherwise lovely instrument.
Ahh, cool. Glad you got some strings working on it... And yeah, I hate big, fat plain strings. On banjo, at least, those can cause some intonation problems, because the core of the wound strings is much lighter, so the fat A strings are often sharp up the neck...
A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
I have just bought myself an Ozark mini-tenor guitar. It is a lovely and inexpensive instrument but it comes in that classic tuning of CGDA instead of GDAE and I would appreciate some advice of what to do with it. The string gauges right now are approximately
32 26 17 11
Or at least they are the sizes of the spare set of strings that the shop gave me.
I understand that one option is to capo it on the second and get DAEB. Right now I am toying with DADG (low to high) so it is like the bass 4 strings of my guitar. That is still not ideal for melody though.
If I were to change it to GDAE what sort of gauge should I be looking at? There is one snag though:
http://www.eaglemusicshop.com/details1.asp/ProductID/5462/sid/115/ozark-tenor-guitar.htm
In this advert (not the shop I got it from - that was the fantastic Scayles in Edinburgh) it does not recommend using GDAE with this model. Is that because of the integrity of the neck?
Does anyone else have any experience with this particular instrument? What did you do?
Any advice would be welcome.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
You could use this string tension calculator -
http://mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html
to work out what the total tension on the guitar is now, at it's existing tuning and with current string gauges. Then you can use the same calculator to try different gauges and pitches - as long as you don't exceed the original total tension you should be OK.
Not entirely accurate, but near enough.
Keith
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by ocarolan
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
It does not have an option for a tenor guitar - or indeed anything with 4 strings. The tension on a bouzouki, for example would be much greater due to the paired strings. Is there an equivalent program out there that includes 4 stringed instruments?
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
Use the calculator for an 8 string with paired identical strings and divide by two? That should work just fine.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Michael Eskin
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
I use a tension calculator applet from my friend, Dan.
http://www.pacificsites.net/~dog/StringTensionApplet.html
My tenor guitar is 23.5" scale length, with Nickel strings (wound A), and it looks like this:
len 23.5"
E .011" PL == 16.66#
A, .018" NW == 17.21#
D, .026" NW == 15.63#
G,, .040" NW == 16.15#
total == 65.65#
If you like the sound of it where it is, figure out what the average tension is in the current tuning, and then you can figure it backwards to have it tell you the approximate string gauges you need.
Example:
len 22"
E 18# PL
A, 18# PB
D, 18# PB
G,, 18# PB
That would find you approximate gauges for 18 pounds of tension on Phosphor Bronze strings (with a plain steel E), and a scale length of 22". You'll want to plug in your own numbers.
In general, I have found the a consistent tension across all the strings helps you get good volume and intonation balance.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
And if you have a fixed pin bridge, you may need to get a luthier to compensate the saddle for the new tuning. And if you are using heavier string gauges, you'll probably need to file the nut to handle them...
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
I've tried both tunings on several tenor guitars, and my final decision was to go with the original tuning of cdae capoed up or playinhg tunes in open depending on the key.
I am not sure why the instrument sounds better that way, but I suspect that it is built for cdae and the lower tuning doesn't resonate as well. Banjos, on the other hand, have no problems with the two tuning sets probably because they are very robust instruments meant to be played loud.
Do you know the scale (distance from bridge to nut) on your instrument? If it is a short scale (less than 19inches) you won't have good luck with the standard 40-12 string gages for GDAE since the G string will sound very floppy.
I have just acquired a Gold Tone Cello Banjo and am playing in the CDAE tuning. It is not that hard to make the transition from GDAE for most tunes and you can always capo up two as long as you play tunes that a whistle can play - you lose the G string notes that way. On the other hand a tune like Castle Kelly sounds great in the CGDA tuning.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
hyyp://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
If it's like this one: http://www.eaglemusicshop.com/details1.asp/ProductID/5462/name/ozark-tenor-guitar.htm
The scale length is about 21.75", and it says GDAE tuning "not recommended for this instrument" for some reason... Maybe the things you were talking about, Mike...
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
Hi, No Cause! I have the same instrument, and I use the D'Addario strings: E 012 A 024 D 032 G 045. It works for me. Hope this helps... Thanis
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Thanis
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
Thanks guys. Thanis - that is great to hear.
Pete - I am trying to use your string gauge program but it is not liking my C string. I am getting this:
len 54cm
A .11" PL == 11.02kg
D .17" PL == 11.73kg
G, .26" PB == 11.13kg
C, .32" PB == bad string type: java.lang.illegalArgumentException
total == 33.88kg
What am I typing wrong? What should I do?
Incidentally I was chatting to an amazing tenor banjo/tenor guitar player in the session today (*missing name drop alert*) - seems like fate doesn't it - Never met him before, recommended to talk to him and in he walks - and he said that his TB is a bit longer length but that he uses .13 .20 .30 and .40 strrings. He didn't forsee any problems. Things are looking up already with this instrument.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
I would say that a tenor guitar is designed to be tuned CGda, and the fact that you have put on different gauges of string, or at least want to, will not neccesarily make it work well as a lower- tuned instrument. The body size and design, in an optimum situation, have been designed to work well at the pitches and tensions listed - trying to make it another instrument might be counterproductive. Why didn't you just buy an octave mandolin if that was what you wanted ?
Older contributors may remember seeing the odd attempt, from the late '60s' onwards, to make a bass acoustic guitar by fixing a bass neck to one of those heavily-built acoustic guitar bodies, like an Eko for instance. They never worked satisfactorily because a better design was needed to make the body resonate that extra octave down.
You may find you have the same problem, even though you are not trying to tune down quite so far..
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
I have a Martin tenor, I think it sounds great tuned GDAE (although the intonation is slightly off, because I haven't adjusted the saddle)
The reason not to buy an octave mandolin is because it doesn't sound like a tenor guitar
But GP is right... certain instruments are build to play at certain pitches, so there's no guarantee that it's going to sound good.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
To be honest I bought the tenor guitar because I liked the sound and had been looking for a tenor guitar. There was perhaps the opportunity to get a larger bodied one elsewhere (although I never saw the instrument) but I liked the idea of the smaller one because it seemed less of a stretch for playing melody.
As far as buying an octave mandolin goes I already have a bouzouki (and a mandolin) so there would be no point. I prefer the idea of the single strings that are found on a tenor guitar and do not want a banjo because it sounds too banjo-like!
Anyway, whilst CGDA is seen as the traditional tuning they can be found in all sorts of tunings just like guitars, bouzoukis, fiddles and so forth.
In short, what Reverend said, but more long-winded! :-o
Anyway can someone please explain why my limited computer brain can not figure out my problem with that string gauge program? Or maybe work it out for me?
I would owe you a pint!
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
My calculation for the .032" C, string reveals 7.7 kg which is fine.
MIke Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
The 23.3 inch tenor is usually strung Gdae 12 22 30 36 and Dgbe 12 16 25 32 and cgda 23w26w 30w 38w (not for old delicate instruments).This is a wonderful instrument, I love making them ,just not that loud for session playing .I have an article some where on them ,can send a pdf if anyone is interested .
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Philuthier
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
How about:
E .013 PL 8.4kg
A .020 PL 9.33kg
D .030 PB 8.34kg
G .044 PB 7.99kg
?
Thanks
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
That would be well balanced:
len 21.75"
E .013" PL == 9.04kg
A, .020" PL == 9.53kg
D, .030" PB == 8.94kg
G,, .044" PB == 8.56kg
total == 36.08kg
Although, the tension is balanced even better if you use a wound A string (which I always prefer anyway):
len 21.75"
E .013" PL == 9.04kg
A, .020" PB == 8.72kg
D, .030" PB == 8.94kg
G,, .044" PB == 8.56kg
total == 35.27kg
But those are OK tensions. You shouldn't hurt the instrument with that, or anything, and they're reasonable strings to try to find...
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
(I was using the 21.75" scale length from the Ozark I looked up, but I'm not sure that's correct...)
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
In the end I ended up (after some advice and playing with the instrument from the guy in the shop) with
E .013" PL
A, .020" PL
D, .032" PB
G,, .039" PB
They seem ok and certainly are not bending the neck. I do not like the A string as it is very thick for a single string and even has a kink in it near the peg! The shop did not have any wound 20s though. They started at 23 and that seemed too high.
I will no doubt swap the string over at a later date. I need to get the pegs/bridge looked at anyway as the bridge comes with next to no groove in them and the E peg in particular is liable to come flying out across the room when tuning up. The pegs are also very roughly cut along their own groove. It is a shame for an otherwise lovely instrument.
Still, it is now in GDAE so I am in business!
Thank you all for all your help and advice.
Alistair
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
BTW, that's significantly less tension than the CGDA strings that you started with, which would look like this:
len 21.75"
A .011" PL == 11.54kg
D .017" PL == 12.27kg
G, .026" PB == 11.65kg
C, .032" PB == 8.0kg
total == 43.45kg
So if you went backwards from there and wanted similar tension, say 11kg, your strings would be more like this:
len 21.75"
E 11kg PL == 0.0143"
A, 11kg PB == 0.0224"
D, 11kg PB == 0.0333"
G,, 11kg PB == 0.0502"
But I think you're fine with the lower tension... (Again, I'm using the 21.75" scale length there...)
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
Ahh, cool. Glad you got some strings working on it... And yeah, I hate big, fat plain strings. On banjo, at least, those can cause some intonation problems, because the core of the wound strings is much lighter, so the fat A strings are often sharp up the neck...
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by Reverend
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
I use an Ozark like the one you're talking about
14, 20w, 30, 40 worked fine for GDAE although the belly seemed to lift a little bit so I've moved down to 12, 17w, 26, 36 which I'm happy with.
they're excellent instruments for the money
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: A Brand Shiny New Tenor Guitar
Ah fu*k it....
Im getting one of these too....
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by Hugo Chavez