My wife presented me with a a birthday gift tonight, a lovely
little turntable / self contained old school stereo, along with
some preloved vinyl. My almost 16 year old son presented me
with a pre loved Cream Wheels of Fire double album ( the sountrack to my youth). He's a young man of great taste. I've had the best night's listening in years. I found myself really listening, standing in front of the contraption, watching the disc spin, and suddenly remembering that in the old world, you had to fill in the blanks a lot more, and listen harder . How I miss that. It was a great way to learn. Any takers?
grumblingoldwoman. Were lucky enough to have some 45's given to us by my father in law. Some old ceili band stuff, the Dubliner's Seven Drunken Nights and De Danaan doing the Cuckoo's Nest Medley and Maggie on the flip side. I can't wait to hit the shop tomorrow.
I never got rid of my turntable as I fully resisted the temptation to dump my vinyl and, to my jaded ears, the sound of analogue recordings retains a warmth lacking in their digital equivalents.
Chuneboi, you should be able to find a wealth of albums if you scour charity and secondhand shops, but beware that if you're looking for rare Irish albums which have never appeared on CD you might end up paying the earth on eBay.
Now, tell me, you didn't really listen all the way through 'Toad' again, did you?
The only problem with vinyl records is that they wear out :(
I think that accoustic music does sound better on vinyl. Ironically, most of the stuff being pressed on vinyl these days are electronic dance music...for the DJs. So you can thank the club DJs for keeping turntables and vinyl alive.
You've just rubbed salt in an old wound ~ my sister stole my "Cream: Wheels of Fire" vinyl, along with all my R & R... (Rest & Relaxation isn't my meaning...) She didn't touch the trad... I wonder if she sold them all for a profit, they being collectors items, including things like "Disreali Gears", the Who, Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Joanie Mitchell, etc., etc., etc. ~ ALL stuff she professed to hate. She was into things like "The Monkeys". Maybe it was her husband, who also stole my red boots... GRRRRR!!! chuneboi slim you've got me in a spin now ~ ARGH!!!
Floss the tethers. Guffaw .I cannot tell a lie, No I didn't' but I will. I did however listen to the two studio sides and all of "Spoonful". Having said that my wife also gave me a double vinyl with all of Eric Claptons first solo album, most of Derek and the Dominoes and some of the Blind Faith project, collectively his most magnificent period in my opinion.
Yes ceolachan, I only mentioned to my son that Disraeli gears would be a great prize. Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark would be much sought after in my household. Your sister was evil, but I'm sure she's very nice most of the time.
When I was a young lion, we would spend night after night spinning "sides"
Since records were about 20 minutes or so a side, we would listen to alot of different stuff. Not like today where you put 5 CDs in the changer and get the tunes at random.
No, back in the 70s you would have the fellas going through the albumns stored in old plastic milk crates, searching for the next thing we'd be listening to while Coltrane was blowing out of the speakers. Guys would brandish some record under your face and say "we gotta spin THIS!"
it was great stuff. We don't do that anymore in the same way people don't sit out on the stoop on summer evenings anymore, etiher
I still have hundreds of vinyl records. Alot of my old Blue Note and Riverside records never got converted to CDs. A great lot of good music was lost there when the industry made the change to CDs.
And it taught you to listen through the hisses and pops. Sort of how to listen with your heart a little.
Some of my old Rolling Stones records are completely unplayable after all the drunken nights of slapping "Let it Bleed" on the turntable at 3am.
But thank the Lord for the young fellas that are scratching records for the rappers. If it wasn't for them and their popularity, there'd be no market for new turntable equipment, and we'd be left to scour the pawn shops for the last remnants of phonograph technology.
chuneboi slim, sigh, she got the Clapton stuff too... And, there was the "Super Session" and following LPs, and Janis Joplin... Worse was to follow in her evil ways. Her and some friends came across my stash of rare ales and beers, from roundabout here and from elsewhere in Europe. They opened more than a case worth, so more than 24 bottles. They hated it all, thinking it had just gone off, and they dumped it all down the plug hole...
I love my vinyl. At least she and her boyfriend/husband had absolutely no interest in the trad stuff, or it was too much for them to handle. So, I count my blessings ~ the evil b*tch!!!
I am a bit too young to be in love with vinyl (being all of 17) but I have listened to some a time or two. Now lets be honest, the sound quality is not better than CDs, last time I checked CDs don't hiss and crackle, so it seems to me that all you vinyl lovers are really just nostalgic for the good old days. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do wonder why you feel the need to make up excuses.
Arlo
I inherited a large, wonderful vinyl collection and stereo/turntable in my late teens. I had fun adding to the collection with records from second hand shops, yard sales, etc. However, when I made a cross-country move some years later, space and weight concerns won out and I passed the lot on to an appreciative friend.
Threads like this make me nostalgic. And vinyl does seem to be a very social, even communal, form of listening. CDs can be, too, but MP3s, perhaps because they're not physical seem much less so. I'm all for less stuff, but I really being able to touch and see the musical device.
Fellenbaum ~ that in itself is part of the problem, that you 'can't hear the differences', aside from the imperfections. CDs are usually 'diddled', meaning the recording is 'f-k-d' with. Mostly that isn't good. I can speak for this, as I've done some of the f-k-ng. I own some of the lovely tools of musical inqusition.
First, it is compressed, or as I call it, topped-and-tailed. Things high and low are cut off, so to reduce the file size. Then, as some like NOISE AND VOLUME, another trick is used to raise all the VarIetY up to the same high level ~ VARIETY goes out the window. The once variable landscape of rise and fall becomes more asphalt on the flat, like driving holes through moutains and leveling other areas to make the ride as SMOOTH & EVEN as possible, a kind of ugly sameness. This reduceds Lift and Interest, takes the dance out of it. Is it any wonder that many players now play like they were CDs ~ which I personally find a bit sad. If you break down a good live un-f-k-d with recording, before smashing it to fit into the CD limitations, you find this lovely rhythm and interest being very obvious in the waveforms produced, rising and falling, swells, you can even tell a jig from a reel. When you look at the same waveform after it's been dicked with ~ it usually looks like one endless black squiggle, like a wooly caterpillar, everything pushed to the 0db limit...
Worse too can happen. I could take a bunch of random recordings by a given fiddler and produce, with time and effort, any tune you'd care for, and just select the best tone they produced during those performances. If there was anything out, well, I could correct that too. I could produce something they could never ever emulate live, not them, not their instrument...
Yes, it is lovely to not have the crackles and pops, or the hum an distortion of tape ~ but CDs haven't yet been produced with the same range tonally of analog. Yes, it is within our grasp and technology now to do so, but it isn't yet commercial, though SACD and the DVDR have moved in that direction.
Folks tend to prefer what they have become use to, what they've been raised to, like those raised in this digital age, but there are other differences besides the imperfections.
I like and value both, but I know the difference, and despite my aging ears, I can still hear the difference. Even those things outside of our hearing, low and high, enrich the tones that occur between... When a bow changes direction or a whistle or flute articulates, when the bellows change, or even from one key to the next, there is a spike of sound that is lost with CDs. The articulation on this music, the rhythm, is damaged under CD compression.
First preference for me ~ live, but sadly, more and more, it is beginning to sound like the CDs, missing something some of us still have the memory of ~ the dance in the music, that lift and drive and the dynamics of it all... CD-ing a thing is a bit like running your clothes through a mangle...not fogetting the bleach and soap beforehand...
While I think vinyl is great, it only works for certain music. Listening to anything with any dynamic range on LPs was a nightmare - the constant distortion and wow / flutter. I think CD releases of LP mastertapes simply revealed all the cr@p that was hidden by vinyl which is an inherently crappy system of reproducing music. Acid test: if CDs had existed first, would people have invented vinyl? I rest my case, m'lud.
Ceolachan,
What you really seen to be complaining about is the way that music is produced these days, not the technology used to produce it, a sentiment I can share. On the bright side recording costs are steadily falling, putting recording more and more into the hands of people instead of huge corporations. For example, some friends of mine recently invested several thousand dollars in a recording studio, and began recording wonderful CDs of them selfs as well as other local musicians. To me this is the way of the future.
Arlo
Sadly, CDs are as much about the processing and the people doing it as the music they are processing. There are a slew of cr*p sound techies in this business. I know, I've seen the proof of their grubby mishandling of the music of others. As to 'would vinyl be invented' ~ do you honestly think we're at a dead end? There are people trying to move us one, to reclaim digitally what was lost in the change from analog to digital. It isn't by accident that most true audiophiles, those that are obsessed with the music and the technology, hold on to their vinyl and spend thousands on the best turntables... The digital world longs for moving forward to a wider digital footprint, doubling at least what CDs are limited too in scope, for as honest a representation of the music as possible, where honesty is wanted and valued.
Who do you trust, someone who trashes one and praises the other, or a more balanced account from folks who realize there are things worthwhile both sides of this issue... I know where I tend to lean, more open discussion rather than closed...
...but I wonder if the "lift, drive, dance" in the music is to do with less editing? In the days of vinyl, you simply couldn't do the detailed editing you can now, and maybe it's this capability that arrived with digital audio production that's caused us to aim at "flawlessness" rather than "performance"? In pre-digital days it was easier to retake a passage rather than thinking it could be fixed in the edit.
Fellenbaum ~ YES!!! That is the sort of thing I support fullheartedly ~ being involved in the process so you can know the difference. It is also another case of 'less is more'. I've just listened to one self-produced recording that was fiddler with far too much, every trick in the book, including one that really winds me up ~ reverb, you know, the tiled loo sound, or the down the well one... Much of what we can do should never be done, not without a lot of consideration, as it usually interferes with the music rather than complementing it...
Right you are Mark, and often, to save time and effort, it was down to one take, the first and often the rawest and most honest, like early Elvis tracks...
The still do multiple takes, like one friend, at a place called appropriately "The Music Factory". They then assembled the final CD by cutting and pasting from multiple tracks and even moving attacks possible one way but not another to that other, etc. In the end the music was as near to a Frankenstein's monster digitally as one might imagine. There is no way in hell he or his instrument could ever produce the same thing live... This was under the guise of being 'trad'...and continues to be filed there...
That reminds me of a story of one of the great pianists of the last century (it was either Moisevitch or Artur Rubinstein) recording Chopin in the recording studio. The great man didn't hold with editing recordings and so played each of those Chopin preludes half a dozen times, instructing the producer afterwards to select the best of each performance.
Your Chopin story reminds me of a school trip to Lincoln Center back in the late 1960s (must have been '69). We went into the Phihamonic and Leonard Bernstein was conducting and recording the orchestra. We were in an observation booth above the music hall. We were told we had to be absolutely quiet while we peered at the maestro below.
Well, 30 6th graders can only be so quiet. The tour guide threw a fit saying that we ruined the recording. So, I guess they couldn't wash out any residual noise we were making.
Music today can't be trusted. It's washed, re-recorded, spliced, etc. I just saw Dave Munnelly and he was amazing as was his band. However, I bough a CD and it pales by comparison. Some things are nice, but the band just really had it together the other night.
I have a pretty fair collection of Lps - 45s and some 78s - Also audio tape and Reel to Reel tape. Yep...never throw anything away. Irish/ScottishJazz/Classical/Pops/Marching Bands/ Folk etc Included in my collection of LPs are various ceili bands from the 50s - 60s and 70s. Bands such as Jackie Hearst Ceili Band (He use to play with The Vincent Lowe Trio)- The Leitrim Ceili Band (Joe Burke playing with them) - Jack Barrett Ceili Band- The Assaroe Ceili Band - The Tulla Ceili Band - The Glenside Ceili Band with 16 yr old Kevin Burke playing fiddle - Brendan Hogan's Ballinakill Ceili Band - La Cheile - Raymond Roland Quartet - The Gallowglass - Donal Ring Ceili Band - Pride of Erin Ceili Band - The Owenmore Ceili Band - The Shaskeen etc etc. I will eventually get around to converting to CDs but I find the odd scratch adds to the atmosphere of the time, You must remember that many of those old ceili bands were scratchy even before they were recorded.
Caolachan, there's a lot to be said for going with the first take - just requires musicianship rather than editing ability.
I like, by the way, the story told about Solti's Wagner Ring recordings, for Decca, in the sixties: one of the ground-breaking things about it was that the musicians had always recorded in four-minute takes (a hangover from the days of 78s) and the Decca Ring recording was the first that questioned a way of working that had just become the norm, without anyone really thinking about whether it was still appropriate.
We are of similar mind... It can also be the moment of greatest passion ~ fresh and full of excitement... It might become technically more proficient with repetition, but sometimes you lose the joy of the raw... Many times, after many takes, the decision has ended with the first being first choice...not because it was perfect...because it wasn't...
Sure and doesn't that ceolachan have the longest personal details on this forum.
And shame on that brother-in-law for pinching her red boots ! What kind of a perversion was that ?
But -- but -- vinyl is coming back in a big way. New records are being pressed, older masters are being resurrected. A week ago I bought a newly remastered and sealed Abbey Road, among a few others.
Stores are starting to sell used and new vinyl -- I believe Best Buy just took some on.
I like it because people are giving away entire record collections to make room for their home theaters. I recently was given a hundred nicely maintained jazz lps after the owner put 'em onto his iPod.
If you look on the forums, like Audiokarma.org, you'll see lots of enthusiasm for all stuff analog -- vinyl, cassettes, and reel-to-reel tapes. And there's some wickedly expensive gear to play it on, too -- both new and used.
We have a lot of 45s. I love the old Elvis ones. Didn't like Elvis in his heyday, though. My daughter's lullabye is "I can't help falling in love with you."
Reading through this has brought back a lot of memories for me.
Now, when we take really long trips (such as driving and driving and driving across Texas), we take along all of the CD's from both or our collections and listen to them while driving.
There is also the magic of the mono mix aspect, on older recordings, which is really the domain of the hyper - nostalgia specialist, such as myself., the most prominent example being
"Pet Sounds". Brian Wilson absolutely refused to record the work in stereo, and while some of the content to me is a little bit on the bland side, its one of the best examples of the optimisation of the old technology.
No, I don't know any coelacanth jokes and have never heard any.
However, since the coelacanth is supposed to be a fish which is a "living fossil", maybe we could sing a chorus and a verse of two of the song "Fish Heads".
Heh heh, almost hate to inject a note of reality into this romantic discussion, but as one who was there at the time, I guess I have some responsibilities!
Vinyl was great (especially compared to what we had before - 78RPM shellacs), but it wasn't pure. Indeed, we were forced to do the meanest things to fit the music into the narrow confines the medium allowed. Very heavy limiting was used to prevent overmodulation which would make the groove run into the next groove, or cause lateral deviations too fast for the replay stylus to follow. Below that, compression was used to keep soft passages from falling into the "mud" at the bottom of the range. Low frequencies (bass notes) had to be reduced to prevent overmodulation. And of course after the 2nd world war, most recordings were made originally on analog tape and then mastered to vinyl, so you had all the failings of analog tape as well. Anyone who heard the direct-to-disc recordings that were coming on to the market just before CDs came out will remember them for their breathtaking clarity, compared to discs mastered on tape. Of course it asked a lot of the musicians - re retakes when you're recording direct to disc.
So compared to the horrid manipulations we did in the days of vinly and analog tape, and the horrid distortions we introduced, mp3 is as clean as a whistle!
Well, I guess things don't really change...or one poison for another, depending on what's needed to sell... However, there is always hope. The equivalent of Blue Ray for images does exist for audio ~ the ability is there, in time so will the medium, the product, and the means to play it... As always, it will start out high. Change is inevitable... But I still think MP3s suck, but I still welcome the tools and use them just the same...
Oops, I meant (above) NO retakes when you're recording direct to disc.
Now, having spilled the beans on the naughty things we did to cram music onto vinyl, I should come clean and say I still have a lot of vinyl myself, and occasionally move things I want on to CD and .mp3. Audacity is pretty good for this.
At least we were lucky in Irish music that dynamics doesn't play a large part, so with the exception of top limiting and sometimes bass reduction, Irish and folk music records weren't overly screwed up. I think a lot of folk recordings suffered though from use of inappropriate mikes, or some other set of circumstances that left the lower midrange sounds weakened. If you've ever heard Triona Ni Dhomnail's "Do You love an apple", you'll know the sound I mean. Great singing, but a thin recording.
I recently transcribed the Young Tradition Sampler (for my 10yo son, would you believe!) and found it the same - desperately lacking in the lower midrange, making the singers sound thin and the bass singer in particular almost non-existant. I hear the same lack in a lot of fiddle recordings - no warmth, just a screetchy top. Could be the class of fiddle in use of course, but it isn't pleasant.
So, when transcribing from vinyl to new formats, do experiment with the EQ, you may be astonished at what further can be scraped out of those grooves. Keep in mind that the bass is likely to have been reduced, so try a bit more of that for a start. Avoid bringing up turntable rumble though - no point in looking for bass for example in a solo fiddle recording, but it might do wonders for a piano accompaniment.
If you feel the recording lacks warmth, try a boost in the lower midrange - say as much as 6dB between around 200 and 600Hz. If the recording sounds restrained, try a boost in the presence band around 3KHz; or if brassy, try a cut there. If dull, boost around 5KHz, but don't expect to find much other than hiss around the top octave, 10-20KHz..
After setting the EQ to your satisfaction, listen to the recording for a bit, then switch the EQ out. Make sure you hadn't thrown some baby out with the bathwater before confirming.
And do remember to wash your recordings (in warm soapy water, with a paint brush) before transfer. Some of that mud in the bottom of the grooves is just mud in the bottom of the grooves!
My grandfather let me listen to some of his 78RPM recordings when I was a teenager and I wasn't impressed by them. I preferred the 33-1/3 RPM records which my father had.
Good basic recommendations TM. What softwares are you using for audio restoration? I'm assuming that Audacity isn't your only bag of digital tricks...
There are some new kids on the block with an atractive bit of kit ~ iZotope RX, and they have a general introduction to restoring audio, a pdf, but there are a few of those floating around on the Internet ~
But I disagree that Irish and trad music is void of dynamics, hardly. The proof is in any waveform from a decent recording of a decent musician. I've a slew of field recordings, and whatever my limitations, money being a major one, I have no problem seeing the heart beat of this music laid down in a landscape of dynamics. No, nothing absurd and abused, but enough to see the phrases and the rhythmic structure of this music, the dance in it.
Awful mics back in the dark ages ~ yes, and poor mic techniques, some daft diddling too... Why are people so in love with stairwell reverb?
Now to go find those Coelacanth jokes...
TM ~ I and others once had to retrieve a slew of old 78s from a barn where there were a lot of bats and other flying things that drop shight. These records were stacked, sometimes as high as I am tall, and they'd been there for years. The boxes were rotted away with it, and the place reeked. Cleaning the shight off of things and out of the grooves was a major job. But, what we found once that was done, was amazing, whatever the inherent faults of the media... Some of the 78s beneath it all were virgin, untouched, never been played...
Terry, do you remember that record cleaner stuff you used to be able to get? It was a bit like PVA adhesive - white, and you spread it all over both sides of the LP and left it to dry. Then you put a piece of sticky tape on the outside edge and pulled the whole lot off. It took away all the nasty stuff sitting in the groove and did wonders for the sound. I gather if you wash vinyl disks with a bit of dishwasher rinse-aid in the water, that helps them dry properly. So if you're transcribing vinyl to your computer or to CD, you might as well get it as good as you can.
I lived in the "analogue" days too and being a classical fan I was so pleased when CDs came out - LPs, however brilliant they were, just weren't very good for anything with any dynamic range, and they weren't always kind to sustained sounds, such as pipe organs, or sounds with lots of high frequencies or high sound levels - particularly toward the centre of the disk where the groove was only moving at about 6"/sec.
Oooh, the worst thing was when they didn't quite get the hole in the centre to be quite in the centre. So the last track got increasingly bizarre as the music slowed down and sped up 33 & 1/3 times per minute. Puke. And not easy to deal with even with a Digital Audio Editor.
And Cheolachan, I'm afraid Audacity IS about all I have these days. My copy of Wavelab doesn't run on Vista, and is rather old anyway. It's a long long time since I did any of this professionally, and that was largely before we had digital tools. That device from Izotope looks like what we only dreamed of.
Fortunately, for practical musical purposes, Audacity will do most things we need - editing, scratch and noise reduction, automatic silence detection, track separation and labelling, EQ and filtering, fades in and out, gain changing and normalisation, even .mp3 conversion. At zero cost. Not bad!
This company worked out a few years ago that by extracting the HF bias signal from tape / film, you could use it as a reference to remove wow and flutter. And in some of the examples, even things which didn't sound like they had it, sound amazingly clean because flutter sounded a bit like distortion (if it was fast enough).
This has been awaking memories, good and bad and present. Mark, there was also a turntable setup where you used a kind of oil and the equivalent of Terry's brush instead of a stylus. You put the record on a platter that turned as you added this liquid and the brush distributed it across the platter. The viscous fluid cleaned but I believe also was able to deal with microfissures. After it was cleaned and wiped you left it to dry. And then there was all that work, still going on, to read the grooves with a dual laser...nothing touching the surface at all, and a computer that could analyse and make corrections to produce the 'intended' ~ something closer to the original sound source... This reasearch was still ongoing the last I heard...
Most of the current software out there for audio restoration have a feature to catch what you want to eliminate and process it away, isolating and identifying the sound you want to remove ~ wow, flutter, hum, buzz ~ constant background noises, like those created as a byproduct of using microphones. However, all processing can have its potential costs too, if it can remove sound, or alter it, that can also affect the source your trying to preserve. It can get really fiddly, but, despite my bellyaching, I love the digital and quite enjoy the tearing apart and putting back together again. If I had the dosh I'd be buying the hardware too. There is a joy gained in taking the recording of an old friend, voice and music, and removing the little imprefections so the thing your after, that you value highest, is given greater clarity and presence, brought into the light, helping to bring the life out in it...
In this lark, you ideally don't start with CD quality, you convert to something much higher, and a larger file, and then you do all your cleaning up there ~ then, when you're happy you've done as much as you can without damaging the thing you're trying to pull out of the dust ~ then you convert it to something less ~ the red book CD standard...
As said, while I appreciate both, there is no beating where we're going next with this math, beyond even young ears being able to tell. Funny that, it doesn't really apply, because young ears often can't hear the difference, being tuned in to the current commercial sounds, MP3s and the like, and all the damned diddling the sound junkies put it through ~ because they can. All in, it is that which irritates me most, and it is a constant ~ give somebody a box of tools and at some point they just will have to go out and tear something apart...or so it seems. Why do some feel the whole box needs to be dumped out and everthing in it used to nail two pieces of wood together?
Everything else aside, it is this music live that I value most...
One of the reasons I keep going to various jam sessions to play music is to help support live music locally instead of just buying recorded music.
I completely agree with ceolachan's last comment, "it is this music live that I value most".
Also, I do genuinely appreciate the people who come to these jam sessions to listen and try to thank them when I can.
People are still throwing out old vinyl. We have several thrift shops that have large collections of unwanted LPs. A lot of it is rubbish but I came across a Gallowglass album recently, stuck between Holiday in the Balkans and Nana Mouskouri's greatest hits.
Chunes, I bought Holiday in the Balkans but passed on Ms M. HitB features the Jugoslavian National Orchestra playing such hot hits as Duj Duj Gypsy Dance and Dalmation Melody. Like Gallowglass it's of its time - strict tempo, nothing fancy. Good tunes if you're into Balkan music.
Well done. I bet the cover is a scorcher. Some of those early Continental theme vinyls are great. My Mum an Dad had one
with a little rotund Italian farm lady selling tomatoes on the front, it had light classical type tunes on it. I must track it down and have it, goddamit. Yeah, agreed the Mouskouri one may be to much of a leap into the kingdom of kitch, from which you might never return.
The next two issues, August & September, will be featuring articles relevant to this discussion ~ "Black Art", in two parts, which will deal with the whole process of making LPs... This magazine keeps up a regular "Vinyl Section", starting with 'news', like 'new' releases...
Damn, they are ahead of the game, the August issue has been out, it seems, since the end of June, the September issue is on the stands from the 31st of this month. Get the August issue while you can!!!
For anyone with a limited budget ~ Pro-ject has some turntables worthy of consideration, starting at acceptable prices for those on a tight budget but who still would like to save at least enough for a quality build...
Chunes - the cover is a blast and the main reason I bought it. Two scowling bandits recently descended from the hills by the look of it. Skirts, leggings,beards and shoes to die for. Actually they were probably the first violin and zouk player. There was a lot more of this stuff at the opshop if you're interested. Send me an email.
Having recently resurrected all our old vinyl I'm interested in the value of all the oldies but goodies. A full collection of Chieftain's albums, all of Planxty and just about everything recorded by John Kirkpatrick and a large amount of the Green Linnet 1970s catalogue. Plus first (and only?) pressings of early Velvet Underground, Never Mind the crap and other sundry punk stuff. Can't find the singles though. (We've always had an eclectic approach to music.)
I once saw one of my old platters being advertised for over $500 U.S. dollars... Wild... Taking very good care of my vinyl, and some rare stuff, and first cuts, there could be gold, black gold... YeeHa!!!
Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
My wife presented me with a a birthday gift tonight, a lovely
little turntable / self contained old school stereo, along with
some preloved vinyl. My almost 16 year old son presented me
with a pre loved Cream Wheels of Fire double album ( the sountrack to my youth). He's a young man of great taste. I've had the best night's listening in years. I found myself really listening, standing in front of the contraption, watching the disc spin, and suddenly remembering that in the old world, you had to fill in the blanks a lot more, and listen harder . How I miss that. It was a great way to learn. Any takers?
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
We have an old turn table and a newer one which looks like the old case style turn table. It also has a CD player in it.
My husband likes to find vintage vinyl and play. We have not found ITM lately,but have a lot of swing and jazz.
The kids love it. It would make for a great Sunday afternoon in winter when we were shut in.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
grumblingoldwoman. Were lucky enough to have some 45's given to us by my father in law. Some old ceili band stuff, the Dubliner's Seven Drunken Nights and De Danaan doing the Cuckoo's Nest Medley and Maggie on the flip side. I can't wait to hit the shop tomorrow.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I never got rid of my turntable as I fully resisted the temptation to dump my vinyl and, to my jaded ears, the sound of analogue recordings retains a warmth lacking in their digital equivalents.
Chuneboi, you should be able to find a wealth of albums if you scour charity and secondhand shops, but beware that if you're looking for rare Irish albums which have never appeared on CD you might end up paying the earth on eBay.
Now, tell me, you didn't really listen all the way through 'Toad' again, did you?
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
The only problem with vinyl records is that they wear out :(
I think that accoustic music does sound better on vinyl. Ironically, most of the stuff being pressed on vinyl these days are electronic dance music...for the DJs. So you can thank the club DJs for keeping turntables and vinyl alive.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
You've just rubbed salt in an old wound ~ my sister stole my "Cream: Wheels of Fire" vinyl, along with all my R & R... (Rest & Relaxation isn't my meaning...) She didn't touch the trad... I wonder if she sold them all for a profit, they being collectors items, including things like "Disreali Gears", the Who, Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Joanie Mitchell, etc., etc., etc. ~ ALL stuff she professed to hate. She was into things like "The Monkeys". Maybe it was her husband, who also stole my red boots... GRRRRR!!! chuneboi slim you've got me in a spin now ~ ARGH!!!
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Floss the tethers. Guffaw .I cannot tell a lie, No I didn't' but I will. I did however listen to the two studio sides and all of "Spoonful". Having said that my wife also gave me a double vinyl with all of Eric Claptons first solo album, most of Derek and the Dominoes and some of the Blind Faith project, collectively his most magnificent period in my opinion.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
You mean everyone doesn't use vinyl/LPs?
What do the rest of you use? Those aul tape things, cassettes is it?
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Yes ceolachan, I only mentioned to my son that Disraeli gears would be a great prize. Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark would be much sought after in my household. Your sister was evil, but I'm sure she's very nice most of the time.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Bodhran, your a gas c^&%
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Too late for me: I flogged all my LPs to Hot Rats in Sunderland some years ago for forty quid. I needed the space more than I needed the money.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
When I was a young lion, we would spend night after night spinning "sides"
Since records were about 20 minutes or so a side, we would listen to alot of different stuff. Not like today where you put 5 CDs in the changer and get the tunes at random.
No, back in the 70s you would have the fellas going through the albumns stored in old plastic milk crates, searching for the next thing we'd be listening to while Coltrane was blowing out of the speakers. Guys would brandish some record under your face and say "we gotta spin THIS!"
it was great stuff. We don't do that anymore in the same way people don't sit out on the stoop on summer evenings anymore, etiher
I still have hundreds of vinyl records. Alot of my old Blue Note and Riverside records never got converted to CDs. A great lot of good music was lost there when the industry made the change to CDs.
And it taught you to listen through the hisses and pops. Sort of how to listen with your heart a little.
Some of my old Rolling Stones records are completely unplayable after all the drunken nights of slapping "Let it Bleed" on the turntable at 3am.
But thank the Lord for the young fellas that are scratching records for the rappers. If it wasn't for them and their popularity, there'd be no market for new turntable equipment, and we'd be left to scour the pawn shops for the last remnants of phonograph technology.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
My exprerience exactly.hic.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
In my neighborhood, we have the 'community turntable'.
The computer I had all of my converted vinyls on had a head crash. Lost everything. I get to listen to them all again!
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
chuneboi slim, sigh, she got the Clapton stuff too... And, there was the "Super Session" and following LPs, and Janis Joplin... Worse was to follow in her evil ways. Her and some friends came across my stash of rare ales and beers, from roundabout here and from elsewhere in Europe. They opened more than a case worth, so more than 24 bottles. They hated it all, thinking it had just gone off, and they dumped it all down the plug hole...
I love my vinyl. At least she and her boyfriend/husband had absolutely no interest in the trad stuff, or it was too much for them to handle. So, I count my blessings ~ the evil b*tch!!!
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I am a bit too young to be in love with vinyl (being all of 17) but I have listened to some a time or two. Now lets be honest, the sound quality is not better than CDs, last time I checked CDs don't hiss and crackle, so it seems to me that all you vinyl lovers are really just nostalgic for the good old days. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do wonder why you feel the need to make up excuses.
Arlo
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Fellenbaum
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I inherited a large, wonderful vinyl collection and stereo/turntable in my late teens. I had fun adding to the collection with records from second hand shops, yard sales, etc. However, when I made a cross-country move some years later, space and weight concerns won out and I passed the lot on to an appreciative friend.
Threads like this make me nostalgic. And vinyl does seem to be a very social, even communal, form of listening. CDs can be, too, but MP3s, perhaps because they're not physical seem much less so. I'm all for less stuff, but I really being able to touch and see the musical device.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Tintin
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Fellenbaum ~ that in itself is part of the problem, that you 'can't hear the differences', aside from the imperfections. CDs are usually 'diddled', meaning the recording is 'f-k-d' with. Mostly that isn't good. I can speak for this, as I've done some of the f-k-ng. I own some of the lovely tools of musical inqusition.
First, it is compressed, or as I call it, topped-and-tailed. Things high and low are cut off, so to reduce the file size. Then, as some like NOISE AND VOLUME, another trick is used to raise all the VarIetY up to the same high level ~ VARIETY goes out the window. The once variable landscape of rise and fall becomes more asphalt on the flat, like driving holes through moutains and leveling other areas to make the ride as SMOOTH & EVEN as possible, a kind of ugly sameness. This reduceds Lift and Interest, takes the dance out of it. Is it any wonder that many players now play like they were CDs ~ which I personally find a bit sad. If you break down a good live un-f-k-d with recording, before smashing it to fit into the CD limitations, you find this lovely rhythm and interest being very obvious in the waveforms produced, rising and falling, swells, you can even tell a jig from a reel. When you look at the same waveform after it's been dicked with ~ it usually looks like one endless black squiggle, like a wooly caterpillar, everything pushed to the 0db limit...
Worse too can happen. I could take a bunch of random recordings by a given fiddler and produce, with time and effort, any tune you'd care for, and just select the best tone they produced during those performances. If there was anything out, well, I could correct that too. I could produce something they could never ever emulate live, not them, not their instrument...
Yes, it is lovely to not have the crackles and pops, or the hum an distortion of tape ~ but CDs haven't yet been produced with the same range tonally of analog. Yes, it is within our grasp and technology now to do so, but it isn't yet commercial, though SACD and the DVDR have moved in that direction.
Folks tend to prefer what they have become use to, what they've been raised to, like those raised in this digital age, but there are other differences besides the imperfections.
I like and value both, but I know the difference, and despite my aging ears, I can still hear the difference. Even those things outside of our hearing, low and high, enrich the tones that occur between... When a bow changes direction or a whistle or flute articulates, when the bellows change, or even from one key to the next, there is a spike of sound that is lost with CDs. The articulation on this music, the rhythm, is damaged under CD compression.
First preference for me ~ live, but sadly, more and more, it is beginning to sound like the CDs, missing something some of us still have the memory of ~ the dance in the music, that lift and drive and the dynamics of it all... CD-ing a thing is a bit like running your clothes through a mangle...not fogetting the bleach and soap beforehand...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
MP3-ing it does even more damage, compressing it further...and consequently losing more of the life that is this music...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
But, I appreciate that tool too...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
While I think vinyl is great, it only works for certain music. Listening to anything with any dynamic range on LPs was a nightmare - the constant distortion and wow / flutter. I think CD releases of LP mastertapes simply revealed all the cr@p that was hidden by vinyl which is an inherently crappy system of reproducing music. Acid test: if CDs had existed first, would people have invented vinyl? I rest my case, m'lud.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Ceolachan,
What you really seen to be complaining about is the way that music is produced these days, not the technology used to produce it, a sentiment I can share. On the bright side recording costs are steadily falling, putting recording more and more into the hands of people instead of huge corporations. For example, some friends of mine recently invested several thousand dollars in a recording studio, and began recording wonderful CDs of them selfs as well as other local musicians. To me this is the way of the future.
Arlo
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Fellenbaum
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Sadly, CDs are as much about the processing and the people doing it as the music they are processing. There are a slew of cr*p sound techies in this business. I know, I've seen the proof of their grubby mishandling of the music of others. As to 'would vinyl be invented' ~ do you honestly think we're at a dead end? There are people trying to move us one, to reclaim digitally what was lost in the change from analog to digital. It isn't by accident that most true audiophiles, those that are obsessed with the music and the technology, hold on to their vinyl and spend thousands on the best turntables... The digital world longs for moving forward to a wider digital footprint, doubling at least what CDs are limited too in scope, for as honest a representation of the music as possible, where honesty is wanted and valued.
Who do you trust, someone who trashes one and praises the other, or a more balanced account from folks who realize there are things worthwhile both sides of this issue... I know where I tend to lean, more open discussion rather than closed...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
...but I wonder if the "lift, drive, dance" in the music is to do with less editing? In the days of vinyl, you simply couldn't do the detailed editing you can now, and maybe it's this capability that arrived with digital audio production that's caused us to aim at "flawlessness" rather than "performance"? In pre-digital days it was easier to retake a passage rather than thinking it could be fixed in the edit.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Fellenbaum ~ YES!!! That is the sort of thing I support fullheartedly ~ being involved in the process so you can know the difference. It is also another case of 'less is more'. I've just listened to one self-produced recording that was fiddler with far too much, every trick in the book, including one that really winds me up ~ reverb, you know, the tiled loo sound, or the down the well one... Much of what we can do should never be done, not without a lot of consideration, as it usually interferes with the music rather than complementing it...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Right you are Mark, and often, to save time and effort, it was down to one take, the first and often the rawest and most honest, like early Elvis tracks...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
The still do multiple takes, like one friend, at a place called appropriately "The Music Factory". They then assembled the final CD by cutting and pasting from multiple tracks and even moving attacks possible one way but not another to that other, etc. In the end the music was as near to a Frankenstein's monster digitally as one might imagine. There is no way in hell he or his instrument could ever produce the same thing live... This was under the guise of being 'trad'...and continues to be filed there...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
That reminds me of a story of one of the great pianists of the last century (it was either Moisevitch or Artur Rubinstein) recording Chopin in the recording studio. The great man didn't hold with editing recordings and so played each of those Chopin preludes half a dozen times, instructing the producer afterwards to select the best of each performance.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by lazyhound
I'd rather the honesty of "Techno"...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Rubinstein by my memory... Good one hound dog...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Your Chopin story reminds me of a school trip to Lincoln Center back in the late 1960s (must have been '69). We went into the Phihamonic and Leonard Bernstein was conducting and recording the orchestra. We were in an observation booth above the music hall. We were told we had to be absolutely quiet while we peered at the maestro below.
Well, 30 6th graders can only be so quiet. The tour guide threw a fit saying that we ruined the recording. So, I guess they couldn't wash out any residual noise we were making.
Music today can't be trusted. It's washed, re-recorded, spliced, etc. I just saw Dave Munnelly and he was amazing as was his band. However, I bough a CD and it pales by comparison. Some things are nice, but the band just really had it together the other night.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
30 6th graders & a classical piece & Mr. B. ~ WHEW!!! Respect!
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I have a pretty fair collection of Lps - 45s and some 78s - Also audio tape and Reel to Reel tape. Yep...never throw anything away. Irish/ScottishJazz/Classical/Pops/Marching Bands/ Folk etc Included in my collection of LPs are various ceili bands from the 50s - 60s and 70s. Bands such as Jackie Hearst Ceili Band (He use to play with The Vincent Lowe Trio)- The Leitrim Ceili Band (Joe Burke playing with them) - Jack Barrett Ceili Band- The Assaroe Ceili Band - The Tulla Ceili Band - The Glenside Ceili Band with 16 yr old Kevin Burke playing fiddle - Brendan Hogan's Ballinakill Ceili Band - La Cheile - Raymond Roland Quartet - The Gallowglass - Donal Ring Ceili Band - Pride of Erin Ceili Band - The Owenmore Ceili Band - The Shaskeen etc etc. I will eventually get around to converting to CDs but I find the odd scratch adds to the atmosphere of the time, You must remember that many of those old ceili bands were scratchy even before they were recorded.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Caolachan, there's a lot to be said for going with the first take - just requires musicianship rather than editing ability.
I like, by the way, the story told about Solti's Wagner Ring recordings, for Decca, in the sixties: one of the ground-breaking things about it was that the musicians had always recorded in four-minute takes (a hangover from the days of 78s) and the Decca Ring recording was the first that questioned a way of working that had just become the norm, without anyone really thinking about whether it was still appropriate.
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Damn, now I can't edit Ceolachan's name to spell it correctly...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
We are of similar mind... It can also be the moment of greatest passion ~ fresh and full of excitement... It might become technically more proficient with repetition, but sometimes you lose the joy of the raw... Many times, after many takes, the decision has ended with the first being first choice...not because it was perfect...because it wasn't...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
At least it wasn't the other take on it ~ coelacanth... But ~ I kind of like being, in a sense, a hang over from another time... a survivor...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Sure and doesn't that ceolachan have the longest personal details on this forum.
And shame on that brother-in-law for pinching her red boots ! What kind of a perversion was that ?
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
"her red boots"! ~ They might be red, but I'm no 'her'...
# Posted on July 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
But -- but -- vinyl is coming back in a big way. New records are being pressed, older masters are being resurrected. A week ago I bought a newly remastered and sealed Abbey Road, among a few others.
Stores are starting to sell used and new vinyl -- I believe Best Buy just took some on.
I like it because people are giving away entire record collections to make room for their home theaters. I recently was given a hundred nicely maintained jazz lps after the owner put 'em onto his iPod.
If you look on the forums, like Audiokarma.org, you'll see lots of enthusiasm for all stuff analog -- vinyl, cassettes, and reel-to-reel tapes. And there's some wickedly expensive gear to play it on, too -- both new and used.
Jim
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by Jmbu
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I still have my 45s from junior high...64, 65...Beatles, Stones, Dave Clark Five, Kinks...I sure do miss those days.
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
We have a lot of 45s. I love the old Elvis ones. Didn't like Elvis in his heyday, though. My daughter's lullabye is "I can't help falling in love with you."
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Reading through this has brought back a lot of memories for me.
Now, when we take really long trips (such as driving and driving and driving across Texas), we take along all of the CD's from both or our collections and listen to them while driving.
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
There is also the magic of the mono mix aspect, on older recordings, which is really the domain of the hyper - nostalgia specialist, such as myself., the most prominent example being
"Pet Sounds". Brian Wilson absolutely refused to record the work in stereo, and while some of the content to me is a little bit on the bland side, its one of the best examples of the optimisation of the old technology.
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
ceolachan. I always longed to own a coelacanth but never had the space or a deep enough pool.
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I don't feel I can really make a useful or valid contribution to this discussion.
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
After much thought, it seems to me this discussion was posted from a member of The Fast Show.
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
mehitabel23 ~ at your best...
chuneboi slim ~ olympic sized please!
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Anyone got any coelacanth jokes?
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
No, I don't know any coelacanth jokes and have never heard any.
However, since the coelacanth is supposed to be a fish which is a "living fossil", maybe we could sing a chorus and a verse of two of the song "Fish Heads".
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
A friend wrote a comic one about the Jurassic age but I can't remember a verse of it...
A coelacanth, a salmon and a cod roll into an Irish pub somewhere in the backwoods of Mayo.
The coelacanth orders a shot of "Crested Ten" and a pint of the black stuff.
The salmon orders a pack of smokes and a shandy.
The cod asks for an order of fish and chips and a lager.
The bar tender clears his throat, "Sorry mate, we don't serve cod here."
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Heh heh, almost hate to inject a note of reality into this romantic discussion, but as one who was there at the time, I guess I have some responsibilities!
Vinyl was great (especially compared to what we had before - 78RPM shellacs), but it wasn't pure. Indeed, we were forced to do the meanest things to fit the music into the narrow confines the medium allowed. Very heavy limiting was used to prevent overmodulation which would make the groove run into the next groove, or cause lateral deviations too fast for the replay stylus to follow. Below that, compression was used to keep soft passages from falling into the "mud" at the bottom of the range. Low frequencies (bass notes) had to be reduced to prevent overmodulation. And of course after the 2nd world war, most recordings were made originally on analog tape and then mastered to vinyl, so you had all the failings of analog tape as well. Anyone who heard the direct-to-disc recordings that were coming on to the market just before CDs came out will remember them for their breathtaking clarity, compared to discs mastered on tape. Of course it asked a lot of the musicians - re retakes when you're recording direct to disc.
So compared to the horrid manipulations we did in the days of vinly and analog tape, and the horrid distortions we introduced, mp3 is as clean as a whistle!
Terry
# Posted on July 26th 2008 by Terry McGee
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Well, I guess things don't really change...or one poison for another, depending on what's needed to sell... However, there is always hope. The equivalent of Blue Ray for images does exist for audio ~ the ability is there, in time so will the medium, the product, and the means to play it... As always, it will start out high. Change is inevitable... But I still think MP3s suck, but I still welcome the tools and use them just the same...
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by ceolachan
The "horrid manipulations" continue, only a hell of a lot easier and more affordable and available...
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Oops, I meant (above) NO retakes when you're recording direct to disc.
Now, having spilled the beans on the naughty things we did to cram music onto vinyl, I should come clean and say I still have a lot of vinyl myself, and occasionally move things I want on to CD and .mp3. Audacity is pretty good for this.
At least we were lucky in Irish music that dynamics doesn't play a large part, so with the exception of top limiting and sometimes bass reduction, Irish and folk music records weren't overly screwed up. I think a lot of folk recordings suffered though from use of inappropriate mikes, or some other set of circumstances that left the lower midrange sounds weakened. If you've ever heard Triona Ni Dhomnail's "Do You love an apple", you'll know the sound I mean. Great singing, but a thin recording.
I recently transcribed the Young Tradition Sampler (for my 10yo son, would you believe!) and found it the same - desperately lacking in the lower midrange, making the singers sound thin and the bass singer in particular almost non-existant. I hear the same lack in a lot of fiddle recordings - no warmth, just a screetchy top. Could be the class of fiddle in use of course, but it isn't pleasant.
So, when transcribing from vinyl to new formats, do experiment with the EQ, you may be astonished at what further can be scraped out of those grooves. Keep in mind that the bass is likely to have been reduced, so try a bit more of that for a start. Avoid bringing up turntable rumble though - no point in looking for bass for example in a solo fiddle recording, but it might do wonders for a piano accompaniment.
If you feel the recording lacks warmth, try a boost in the lower midrange - say as much as 6dB between around 200 and 600Hz. If the recording sounds restrained, try a boost in the presence band around 3KHz; or if brassy, try a cut there. If dull, boost around 5KHz, but don't expect to find much other than hiss around the top octave, 10-20KHz..
After setting the EQ to your satisfaction, listen to the recording for a bit, then switch the EQ out. Make sure you hadn't thrown some baby out with the bathwater before confirming.
And do remember to wash your recordings (in warm soapy water, with a paint brush) before transfer. Some of that mud in the bottom of the grooves is just mud in the bottom of the grooves!
Terry
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Terry McGee
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
My grandfather let me listen to some of his 78RPM recordings when I was a teenager and I wasn't impressed by them. I preferred the 33-1/3 RPM records which my father had.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Ceolachan. See "Peter Sellers" thread for Coelacanth joke. Sorry, typed it in the wrong thread.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Good basic recommendations TM. What softwares are you using for audio restoration? I'm assuming that Audacity isn't your only bag of digital tricks...
There are some new kids on the block with an atractive bit of kit ~ iZotope RX, and they have a general introduction to restoring audio, a pdf, but there are a few of those floating around on the Internet ~
http://www.izotope.com/
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/rx/
Primer on Audio Restoration
http://www.totalrecorder.com/primerar.htm
But I disagree that Irish and trad music is void of dynamics, hardly. The proof is in any waveform from a decent recording of a decent musician. I've a slew of field recordings, and whatever my limitations, money being a major one, I have no problem seeing the heart beat of this music laid down in a landscape of dynamics. No, nothing absurd and abused, but enough to see the phrases and the rhythmic structure of this music, the dance in it.
Awful mics back in the dark ages ~ yes, and poor mic techniques, some daft diddling too... Why are people so in love with stairwell reverb?
Now to go find those Coelacanth jokes...
TM ~ I and others once had to retrieve a slew of old 78s from a barn where there were a lot of bats and other flying things that drop shight. These records were stacked, sometimes as high as I am tall, and they'd been there for years. The boxes were rotted away with it, and the place reeked. Cleaning the shight off of things and out of the grooves was a major job. But, what we found once that was done, was amazing, whatever the inherent faults of the media... Some of the 78s beneath it all were virgin, untouched, never been played...
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18552/comments#comment387142
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Terry, do you remember that record cleaner stuff you used to be able to get? It was a bit like PVA adhesive - white, and you spread it all over both sides of the LP and left it to dry. Then you put a piece of sticky tape on the outside edge and pulled the whole lot off. It took away all the nasty stuff sitting in the groove and did wonders for the sound. I gather if you wash vinyl disks with a bit of dishwasher rinse-aid in the water, that helps them dry properly. So if you're transcribing vinyl to your computer or to CD, you might as well get it as good as you can.
I lived in the "analogue" days too and being a classical fan I was so pleased when CDs came out - LPs, however brilliant they were, just weren't very good for anything with any dynamic range, and they weren't always kind to sustained sounds, such as pipe organs, or sounds with lots of high frequencies or high sound levels - particularly toward the centre of the disk where the groove was only moving at about 6"/sec.
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Oooh, the worst thing was when they didn't quite get the hole in the centre to be quite in the centre. So the last track got increasingly bizarre as the music slowed down and sped up 33 & 1/3 times per minute. Puke. And not easy to deal with even with a Digital Audio Editor.
And Cheolachan, I'm afraid Audacity IS about all I have these days. My copy of Wavelab doesn't run on Vista, and is rather old anyway. It's a long long time since I did any of this professionally, and that was largely before we had digital tools. That device from Izotope looks like what we only dreamed of.
Fortunately, for practical musical purposes, Audacity will do most things we need - editing, scratch and noise reduction, automatic silence detection, track separation and labelling, EQ and filtering, fades in and out, gain changing and normalisation, even .mp3 conversion. At zero cost. Not bad!
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Terry McGee
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Terry, you ought to have a poke around the audio examples on this page: http://www.plangentprocesses.com/examples.htm
This company worked out a few years ago that by extracting the HF bias signal from tape / film, you could use it as a reference to remove wow and flutter. And in some of the examples, even things which didn't sound like they had it, sound amazingly clean because flutter sounded a bit like distortion (if it was fast enough).
Enjoy!
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
This has been awaking memories, good and bad and present. Mark, there was also a turntable setup where you used a kind of oil and the equivalent of Terry's brush instead of a stylus. You put the record on a platter that turned as you added this liquid and the brush distributed it across the platter. The viscous fluid cleaned but I believe also was able to deal with microfissures. After it was cleaned and wiped you left it to dry. And then there was all that work, still going on, to read the grooves with a dual laser...nothing touching the surface at all, and a computer that could analyse and make corrections to produce the 'intended' ~ something closer to the original sound source... This reasearch was still ongoing the last I heard...
Most of the current software out there for audio restoration have a feature to catch what you want to eliminate and process it away, isolating and identifying the sound you want to remove ~ wow, flutter, hum, buzz ~ constant background noises, like those created as a byproduct of using microphones. However, all processing can have its potential costs too, if it can remove sound, or alter it, that can also affect the source your trying to preserve. It can get really fiddly, but, despite my bellyaching, I love the digital and quite enjoy the tearing apart and putting back together again. If I had the dosh I'd be buying the hardware too. There is a joy gained in taking the recording of an old friend, voice and music, and removing the little imprefections so the thing your after, that you value highest, is given greater clarity and presence, brought into the light, helping to bring the life out in it...
In this lark, you ideally don't start with CD quality, you convert to something much higher, and a larger file, and then you do all your cleaning up there ~ then, when you're happy you've done as much as you can without damaging the thing you're trying to pull out of the dust ~ then you convert it to something less ~ the red book CD standard...
As said, while I appreciate both, there is no beating where we're going next with this math, beyond even young ears being able to tell. Funny that, it doesn't really apply, because young ears often can't hear the difference, being tuned in to the current commercial sounds, MP3s and the like, and all the damned diddling the sound junkies put it through ~ because they can. All in, it is that which irritates me most, and it is a constant ~ give somebody a box of tools and at some point they just will have to go out and tear something apart...or so it seems. Why do some feel the whole box needs to be dumped out and everthing in it used to nail two pieces of wood together?
Everything else aside, it is this music live that I value most...
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
One of the reasons I keep going to various jam sessions to play music is to help support live music locally instead of just buying recorded music.
I completely agree with ceolachan's last comment, "it is this music live that I value most".
Also, I do genuinely appreciate the people who come to these jam sessions to listen and try to thank them when I can.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
People are still throwing out old vinyl. We have several thrift shops that have large collections of unwanted LPs. A lot of it is rubbish but I came across a Gallowglass album recently, stuck between Holiday in the Balkans and Nana Mouskouri's greatest hits.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
I would have purchased the other two as well.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Chunes, I bought Holiday in the Balkans but passed on Ms M. HitB features the Jugoslavian National Orchestra playing such hot hits as Duj Duj Gypsy Dance and Dalmation Melody. Like Gallowglass it's of its time - strict tempo, nothing fancy. Good tunes if you're into Balkan music.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Well done. I bet the cover is a scorcher. Some of those early Continental theme vinyls are great. My Mum an Dad had one
with a little rotund Italian farm lady selling tomatoes on the front, it had light classical type tunes on it. I must track it down and have it, goddamit. Yeah, agreed the Mouskouri one may be to much of a leap into the kingdom of kitch, from which you might never return.
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
VINYL ~ "Hi-Fi World" ~ August & September
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/
The next two issues, August & September, will be featuring articles relevant to this discussion ~ "Black Art", in two parts, which will deal with the whole process of making LPs... This magazine keeps up a regular "Vinyl Section", starting with 'news', like 'new' releases...
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by ceolachan
VINYL ~ "Hi-Fi World" ~ August ~ "Black Art I"
Damn, they are ahead of the game, the August issue has been out, it seems, since the end of June, the September issue is on the stands from the 31st of this month. Get the August issue while you can!!!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Thankyou
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Vinyl ~ other considerations
You're welcome...
For anyone with a limited budget ~ Pro-ject has some turntables worthy of consideration, starting at acceptable prices for those on a tight budget but who still would like to save at least enough for a quality build...
http://www.project-audio.com/
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Chunes - the cover is a blast and the main reason I bought it. Two scowling bandits recently descended from the hills by the look of it. Skirts, leggings,beards and shoes to die for. Actually they were probably the first violin and zouk player. There was a lot more of this stuff at the opshop if you're interested. Send me an email.
Having recently resurrected all our old vinyl I'm interested in the value of all the oldies but goodies. A full collection of Chieftain's albums, all of Planxty and just about everything recorded by John Kirkpatrick and a large amount of the Green Linnet 1970s catalogue. Plus first (and only?) pressings of early Velvet Underground, Never Mind the crap and other sundry punk stuff. Can't find the singles though. (We've always had an eclectic approach to music.)
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
Hey! I was edited by the filter! It was supposed to be Never Mind the Bo**ocks!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
ROFL!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
or maybe ROTFL!
# Posted on July 29th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Isn't Vinyl Great? Aren't Turntables Magnificent.
The cover sounds like a kick.
I once saw one of my old platters being advertised for over $500 U.S. dollars... Wild... Taking very good care of my vinyl, and some rare stuff, and first cuts, there could be gold, black gold... YeeHa!!!
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by ceolachan