,I brought 16 kids from our music group over to it
Class time 10am to 1pm with break of 20 mins .
30 pupils in the Flute class ???? -John Wynne teacher
18 Pupils in the Joe Burke Box Class advanced
24 Pupils in the Concertina Starter -
Teacher Larry Kinsella
We cant be serious that you can teach or learn with numbers like that in the class ....
I know that one of the teachers raised this point in the class .
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I guess that always going to be 'a problem' where there is no pre booking system. You can have loads students turning up with resulting high ratios or on other hand, lots of teachers laid on with only few students. Or it can just turn out right, which it does it most cases, I think.
Isn't Willie Clancy run along the same lines - any time I've done a class there 1:12 seems about average. I was talking to one of the teachers on the harp and they reckoned there were 40 students this year with 7 teachers, which is c. 1:6.
Personally, I like the casual system of just turning up and taking 'pot luck' - after all, it's not what you learn in technique at these weeks but rather the opportunity to hear someone who is a leading player, up close, for several days. The sinking of that into your musical pysche is where the value is IMVHO.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Anyway, my son tells me that Joe Burke is well know for starting with loads of students, who he proceeds to 'kick out' of his class as the week goes along - maybe I should say, 'demote'. His 'intermediate' class this year was swelled with those that couldn't cut the mustard!
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I might also add that I understand there may have been a drop in overall student numbers at this years Willie week. There could be several reasons for this but the rising cost, Euro 140, this year could well be a factor.
Other week festivals run on similar lines are quite a bit cheaper (though concerts are extra). This may well have increased the flow of student numbers to the Joe Mooney with resultant problems for the organisers in terms of anticipating class sizes.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
The point I have is
why go to a class with 30 students and 1 teacher
and if this is a problem at other schools ,as said above
would that explain why classes numbers are dropping elsewhere
As a tutor a 1:10. ratio is more that enough
and pre booking would solve that problem and a simple answer would be to get extra tutors on the second day .
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Part of the problem with the concertina is that Noel Hill rules the roost so much so that the other two teachers are under no illusion as to who's "method"(sic) they must teach. The organisers refuse to entertain any other teachers other than those vetted by Noel Hill and maybe other teachers can't be bothered?
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I heard of a fluteclass during the Willie that had Gary Hastings and Conal O Grada as teachers. The two of them had a class of seven between them. So while 140 is steep, this seems value for money.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
well i have seen both. this year i was in Miltown in that class of 7 with 2 great teachers (Gary & Conal). last year in was in John Wynne's class in Drumshanbo with about 20 pupils. i learned a lot from John despite the size of the class. and i took up most of the tunes he taught us and still play them with my music partner now. i would go back to John's class anytime. i love his playing style and i also share his taste in tunes. so with a good teacher even a large class can be fun.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Ha Ha Hussar.
Yes, I have experience of Paddy Glackin working the demote system.
I remember 5 of us attended one of his Fiddle classes, but after getting each of us to play a tune, he decided to keep the young flash harry in his class & sent us other four old scratchers down into the middle group.
That one young fella who was left in his class, certainly did get value for money!
As for 18, 24 or 30, these figures are far, far too high. Not only do the students not get value for money but the tutors get little or no satisfaction from their efforts. Having done a little group teaching myself I would say that 12 should be the maximum number in any class for one teacher.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I really believe pre-booking is the only way to go with the bigger festivals. I have taught in two different summer schools, one that mostly pre-books and one that doesn't. In the 1st one the organiser can tell me how many students I'll have which is always 10 or less. In the 2nd one I was faced with 25 students. As it was the intermediate class I got more during the week, demotes from the top class and promotes from the lowest class. I still teach at one of these schools. I'm sure you can guess.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Suprising that more of the big summer schools don't do online registration for pre-booking, even if a lot of pupils still turned up on the day it would at least give them an idea on numbers and teacher: student ratio.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Jasus! 140 euros for the Willie Clancy School! What would the great man himself have thought of such prices! Maybe I've lost the plot with money altogether, but I never used to think years back that shelling out 25 quid was such a lot for a week's tuition. But 140 notes... you'd have to translate into pints of Guiness to make any sense of it.
I have to say that there's no point in going to a lot of summer schools. You should definately go to one if you are trying to learn without a regular teacher. Maybe give it a couple of years and then go to another and see if you learn substantially more. Frankly, the summer schools and workshops are best at getting people started on the right track with the basics. After that, you need to listen and work and follow your instincts.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
yes, i did a couple of advanced concertina classes in the catskills a couple years back, with a minimum of 20 students in each class. these particular teachers were excellent, and actually knew how to TEACH, as opposed to the lazy method where the so-called teacher does nothihg but rattle through one ear-learn tune after another, pretending that that is teaching-----but the problem is, that even if you have a teacher of the sort that something useful comes out every time they open their mouth, in a class of that size, they won't be opening their mouth often enough to do you much good. in a class of that size, 5/6ths of the class time is burned up listening to your fellow lame-@@@ses, and yourself, go around the class circle limping through what they managed to learn of that day's tune. i find this excruciating beyond belief and completely, totally useless.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
on the point about joe burke and "demotions," i did three years in his advanced box class during clancy week. at the beginning of the class he had everybody play a tune, (this after already playing during the "grading" and being put in his class), to sort of double-check how they sounded. each year this resulted in no (or next to no) "demotions" that i recall, unless people answered in the negative when joe asked if they could ear-learn. otherwise, people were sent on only once we started doing tunes. joe burke's classes were ear-feeding only, minimal-to-no technical instruction or interpretive discussion. and it became clear with the first tune if anybody had trouble with ear-learning. then they did get moved, very, very nicely, to a class that used sheet music. (interestingly, i learned later that the sheet-music class teacher used dots not because it was for dunces, but so as not to burn valuable learning time doing the ear-feed shuffle. this person actually wanted to talk about ornamentation, phrasing, bellows, basses, etc......i personally thought it sounded great. i ear-learn tunes at home on a regular basis, but i think this is a silly thing to travel great distances and spend great amounts of money to be the only thing exclusively that you sit and do in a class).
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
It is interesting to note that Claudine recalls group sizes of 1:20 at last year's Joe Mooney - if numbers were high in 2007, the organisers should have been aware of this and organised extra tutors for 2008. A ratio of 1:20 or 1:30 is clearly ridiculous - I think I would just walk out and ask for my money back but that might depend on who the tutor was.
BTW on subject of 'Noel Hill' method etc., I just don't quite understand this - I am self taught on the concerntina but did a class at this years Willie Clancy to check out my approach. The tutor we had was very flexible - they suggested you might find it easier to use certain buttons on the LHS, some of the time, but nothing was written in stone. It depended on the tune, the need for air, running notes in same direction for triplets etc.
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
30 is too many for a flute class. I would prefer to pay more (Drumshanbo was Euro70 this year) and have some individual attention. I can pick up the tutor's style from a CD but in a class I need to ask questions and to get some corrective action on my playing style.
I was in John Wynne's class this year at Drumshanbo and
he was great. But 28-30 was far too many. When I or those near me had not got the tune right, I couldn't hear what JW was playing, to get the right version. And I was sitting right next to yer man!
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Think it worth mentioning that when some of in the intermediate (Larry Kinsella) concertina class in Drumshanbo complained about the numbers the committee immediately brought in another concertina Yvonne Griffin from Clare and we (including M.Donohoe's daughter) had the benefit of 4 days of top class tuition from a wonderful concertina player. All anyone has to do at the Joe Mooney Summer School is talk to the committee and they will accommodate you if they can. Space is the problem really with every room in the town being used up for classes.
Sometimes the teachers are happy enough to proceed with large numbers and don't complain an it might be up to the pupils.
This is a great summer school with a very hard working accommodating committee - if they can get an extra teacher in they will, so just ask and don't sit there complaining!!!
Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Summer School Joe Mooney Drumshambo http://www.joemooneysummerschool.com/
,I brought 16 kids from our music group over to it
Class time 10am to 1pm with break of 20 mins .
30 pupils in the Flute class ???? -John Wynne teacher
18 Pupils in the Joe Burke Box Class advanced
24 Pupils in the Concertina Starter -
Teacher Larry Kinsella
We cant be serious that you can teach or learn with numbers like that in the class ....
I know that one of the teachers raised this point in the class .
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Martin Donohoe
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I guess that always going to be 'a problem' where there is no pre booking system. You can have loads students turning up with resulting high ratios or on other hand, lots of teachers laid on with only few students. Or it can just turn out right, which it does it most cases, I think.
Isn't Willie Clancy run along the same lines - any time I've done a class there 1:12 seems about average. I was talking to one of the teachers on the harp and they reckoned there were 40 students this year with 7 teachers, which is c. 1:6.
Personally, I like the casual system of just turning up and taking 'pot luck' - after all, it's not what you learn in technique at these weeks but rather the opportunity to hear someone who is a leading player, up close, for several days. The sinking of that into your musical pysche is where the value is IMVHO.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Anyway, my son tells me that Joe Burke is well know for starting with loads of students, who he proceeds to 'kick out' of his class as the week goes along - maybe I should say, 'demote'. His 'intermediate' class this year was swelled with those that couldn't cut the mustard!
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I might also add that I understand there may have been a drop in overall student numbers at this years Willie week. There could be several reasons for this but the rising cost, Euro 140, this year could well be a factor.
Other week festivals run on similar lines are quite a bit cheaper (though concerts are extra). This may well have increased the flow of student numbers to the Joe Mooney with resultant problems for the organisers in terms of anticipating class sizes.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
The point I have is
why go to a class with 30 students and 1 teacher
and if this is a problem at other schools ,as said above
would that explain why classes numbers are dropping elsewhere
As a tutor a 1:10. ratio is more that enough
and pre booking would solve that problem and a simple answer would be to get extra tutors on the second day .
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Martin Donohoe
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Part of the problem with the concertina is that Noel Hill rules the roost so much so that the other two teachers are under no illusion as to who's "method"(sic) they must teach. The organisers refuse to entertain any other teachers other than those vetted by Noel Hill and maybe other teachers can't be bothered?
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I heard of a fluteclass during the Willie that had Gary Hastings and Conal O Grada as teachers. The two of them had a class of seven between them. So while 140 is steep, this seems value for money.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
well i have seen both. this year i was in Miltown in that class of 7 with 2 great teachers (Gary & Conal). last year in was in John Wynne's class in Drumshanbo with about 20 pupils. i learned a lot from John despite the size of the class. and i took up most of the tunes he taught us and still play them with my music partner now. i would go back to John's class anytime. i love his playing style and i also share his taste in tunes. so with a good teacher even a large class can be fun.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by claudine
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Ha Ha Hussar.
Yes, I have experience of Paddy Glackin working the demote system.
I remember 5 of us attended one of his Fiddle classes, but after getting each of us to play a tune, he decided to keep the young flash harry in his class & sent us other four old scratchers down into the middle group.
That one young fella who was left in his class, certainly did get value for money!
As for 18, 24 or 30, these figures are far, far too high. Not only do the students not get value for money but the tutors get little or no satisfaction from their efforts. Having done a little group teaching myself I would say that 12 should be the maximum number in any class for one teacher.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
I really believe pre-booking is the only way to go with the bigger festivals. I have taught in two different summer schools, one that mostly pre-books and one that doesn't. In the 1st one the organiser can tell me how many students I'll have which is always 10 or less. In the 2nd one I was faced with 25 students. As it was the intermediate class I got more during the week, demotes from the top class and promotes from the lowest class. I still teach at one of these schools. I'm sure you can guess.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Deise
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Suprising that more of the big summer schools don't do online registration for pre-booking, even if a lot of pupils still turned up on the day it would at least give them an idea on numbers and teacher: student ratio.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by ládársaol
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Jasus! 140 euros for the Willie Clancy School! What would the great man himself have thought of such prices! Maybe I've lost the plot with money altogether, but I never used to think years back that shelling out 25 quid was such a lot for a week's tuition. But 140 notes... you'd have to translate into pints of Guiness to make any sense of it.
I have to say that there's no point in going to a lot of summer schools. You should definately go to one if you are trying to learn without a regular teacher. Maybe give it a couple of years and then go to another and see if you learn substantially more. Frankly, the summer schools and workshops are best at getting people started on the right track with the basics. After that, you need to listen and work and follow your instincts.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by de Selby
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
yes, i did a couple of advanced concertina classes in the catskills a couple years back, with a minimum of 20 students in each class. these particular teachers were excellent, and actually knew how to TEACH, as opposed to the lazy method where the so-called teacher does nothihg but rattle through one ear-learn tune after another, pretending that that is teaching-----but the problem is, that even if you have a teacher of the sort that something useful comes out every time they open their mouth, in a class of that size, they won't be opening their mouth often enough to do you much good. in a class of that size, 5/6ths of the class time is burned up listening to your fellow lame-@@@ses, and yourself, go around the class circle limping through what they managed to learn of that day's tune. i find this excruciating beyond belief and completely, totally useless.
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
on the point about joe burke and "demotions," i did three years in his advanced box class during clancy week. at the beginning of the class he had everybody play a tune, (this after already playing during the "grading" and being put in his class), to sort of double-check how they sounded. each year this resulted in no (or next to no) "demotions" that i recall, unless people answered in the negative when joe asked if they could ear-learn. otherwise, people were sent on only once we started doing tunes. joe burke's classes were ear-feeding only, minimal-to-no technical instruction or interpretive discussion. and it became clear with the first tune if anybody had trouble with ear-learning. then they did get moved, very, very nicely, to a class that used sheet music. (interestingly, i learned later that the sheet-music class teacher used dots not because it was for dunces, but so as not to burn valuable learning time doing the ear-feed shuffle. this person actually wanted to talk about ornamentation, phrasing, bellows, basses, etc......i personally thought it sounded great. i ear-learn tunes at home on a regular basis, but i think this is a silly thing to travel great distances and spend great amounts of money to be the only thing exclusively that you sit and do in a class).
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
It is interesting to note that Claudine recalls group sizes of 1:20 at last year's Joe Mooney - if numbers were high in 2007, the organisers should have been aware of this and organised extra tutors for 2008. A ratio of 1:20 or 1:30 is clearly ridiculous - I think I would just walk out and ask for my money back but that might depend on who the tutor was.
BTW on subject of 'Noel Hill' method etc., I just don't quite understand this - I am self taught on the concerntina but did a class at this years Willie Clancy to check out my approach. The tutor we had was very flexible - they suggested you might find it easier to use certain buttons on the LHS, some of the time, but nothing was written in stone. It depended on the tune, the need for air, running notes in same direction for triplets etc.
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
30 is too many for a flute class. I would prefer to pay more (Drumshanbo was Euro70 this year) and have some individual attention. I can pick up the tutor's style from a CD but in a class I need to ask questions and to get some corrective action on my playing style.
I was in John Wynne's class this year at Drumshanbo and
he was great. But 28-30 was far too many. When I or those near me had not got the tune right, I couldn't hear what JW was playing, to get the right version. And I was sitting right next to yer man!
# Posted on July 27th 2008 by Shepshed
Re: Summer School Drumshambo 30 pupils in the Flute class ????
Think it worth mentioning that when some of in the intermediate (Larry Kinsella) concertina class in Drumshanbo complained about the numbers the committee immediately brought in another concertina Yvonne Griffin from Clare and we (including M.Donohoe's daughter) had the benefit of 4 days of top class tuition from a wonderful concertina player. All anyone has to do at the Joe Mooney Summer School is talk to the committee and they will accommodate you if they can. Space is the problem really with every room in the town being used up for classes.
Sometimes the teachers are happy enough to proceed with large numbers and don't complain an it might be up to the pupils.
This is a great summer school with a very hard working accommodating committee - if they can get an extra teacher in they will, so just ask and don't sit there complaining!!!
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by MollyB