I was visiting Newcastleton Folk festival at the weekend when I overhead a quite obnoxious individual (Someone whom I've never even spoken to before) commenting that I was one of these poseurs who wandered about with an instrument case and couldn't play. Although I'm by no means a first class musician, I'm not the worst either and frequently join in all the various sessions--as I did over the weekend. I do, however, feel that it makes sense to seek out a session and/or musicians who are likely to be playing the same style of music and/or tunes you know. In addition, if the musicians are obviously playing something quite complicated or having a more private "tune", I am reluctant to barge in spoil it for others.
This person (Whom I wouldn't name, even if I knew) has been coming to the festival for a few years now and is one of those "I'm going to play for you if you want to hear me or not" types and is admittedly quite competent at bashing out a few chords--at "Farmer's corner"- I've heard him sing some great songs such as My old man's a dustbin. Not.
I must admit that I was a little upset and irritated by this man's comments so perhaps I should change my approach. Instead of giving respect to other musicians, I could enter into sessions and take them over---forcing my own repertoire down people's throats. Another good move would be starting up my own tune/song at the next table before other players have finished.
On the other hand, I think it's better to respect your fellow musicians and play when approriate. Admittedly, I could and should start/lead more tunes than I do but that's surely a matter for me and not a problem for anyone else.
People like that... try to simply ignore them... at least, that's what I do. And keep showing that you're much better, respecting other people! Perhaps, some day, they will stop. Or perhaps not. But if we ignore them, we won't really care.
John,
I know at least one box player who turns up half-way through a session then starts 2 out of 3 tunes at full volume with a very smug look on his face for the rest of the time. He is a reasonable player but does not listen to anyone else. I have nothing against box players but because he is loud he can blast away and the only option is to follow him or jump in as he plays his last chord and start a tune he doesn't know - not the best way to encourage everyone to play together! I'm sure it is all about listening to and respecting other musicians - start/lead tunes as you feel like it. The other option would be to get an empty case and wander around the festival and join in at his sessions by proceeding to take nothing out of your empty case, followed by 'damn, has anyone seen my banjo/fiddle/guitar?'
sort of what I tried to do with your "play the bodhran with a penknife" interruption, that you just couldn't resist, into our conversation with drummaker Seamus O'Kane son, Murrough, the other day.
Not to worry, John. Sometimes people like that are trying to sound cool and in the know (especially if they're backers, I mean, c'mon) because they feel insecure themselves (which is often why they feel that they have to try to take over a session as well), and it somehow makes them feel better to try and posture someone else as less skilled a player than themselves; so -- sucks to be them, and don't let them get you down. What they don't realize is that EVERY player (from the best on down) is insecure about their abilities and they could probably get more points by admitting it, like the rest of us. ;)
This person sounds like a walking ego battling for attention to me. I know a few people round my way like that. Thankfully, I've never come across anything like that at my session, but it's his problem John. Sessions should be inclusive affairs, where all musicians can feel a part of it. Unfortunately, even in the world of music, there are insecure, egotistical individuals who have to try and make themselves look good at the expense of everybody else. Just keep doing what you are doing, and most importantly, don't feel discouraged because of it.
all ya need do is prove him wrong. next time you see him pull out your instrument and belt out a few tunes. if he does have such a big ego he'll join in and, lets face it, try and take over, but he'll realise he was wrong. fair enough the chances of getting an apology is slim but it might make you feel better! why not start a session of your own? it doesn't take much to gather a group of friends and let rip! don't let what he said get to you whatever happens!
I think i know the type of character your talking about John. If i included my true feelings for these type of people, Jeremy would probably ban me from the site( and rightly so) .
All you can do is try to ignore these types. I found it very difficult to go to sessions because being a learner and not being able to play like a superstar. The session i do go to now and again is brilliant because all the peole there are excellent musicians who do not have to try to impress anybody, the music they play does that. There is one idiot that turns up and he is the only one that does'nt even say hello to any beginners, never mind encouraging them. The "i'm too good to play with these amateurs" expression on his face gets up my nose. Every time he is there i think to myself, "if this a**h**e is so good he'd be playing professionally and not here in a house with other AMATEURS".
Feck the begrudgers
keep the faith
celtic
A guy at my work whom I was helping do some Electron Microscopy said to me something like "all that Irish Music crap you play...a load of sh!t"...
...or some such offense. He was trying to be funny!?!?! - a sort of wind up. This guy is from Glasgow and is a Celtic supporter as well.
Oh well, shame, cos he'll have to learn the techniques of EM out of a book now.....Pity....
Danny,
"this guy is from Glasgow and a Celtic supporter aswell". He is obviously ignorant and showed it when talking to you about ITM.
What is the point of your comment????? Is it that because i support the same football team as this idiot(ya and there are enough idiots supporting Celtic) then you are assuming that i must be as ignorant as him????????
Why the nasty undertone???
Hey Celtic, mellow out, will ye!
Zina got it in one....you'd have thought he'd have known better, that's all. He's no idiot - just trying to be a smart-ass.
Is this a common thing with Irish sessions?! I only go to sessions to listen but the musicians generally seem happy with each other. I do admit that I've noticed the sessions that are considered "mean" have better music. Whereas the ones people say everybody is nice & welcoming aren't always as good.
Please don't get mad, if the perspective of an outsider is not welcome here I don't want to cause any waves.
luv rach
Hi Rachel -- no, it's not common only to Irish sessions, it's common whenever you have people being people. IE: everywhere. The thing being, "mean" sessions tend to be ones where people care about the music and the quality of the music, right about the same level or above the quality of the crack. This is not normally a problem until you have someone coming to the session who has different priorities from the average of the rest of the group (and since this is a group form of music...). That doesn't make it BAD, but it does mean that there's a disconnect in the group, and the fallout can be...unpleasant.
I thought pobe was being funny (since slagging bodhrans and their players is something of a cultural thing in Irish music, and the bodhranistas with the skin thickness rivalling and surpassing their drum heads are the ones everyone likes to hang out with because they can not only take the heat in the kitchen but are often the ones warming up the oven), actually, so don't go opening a vein or anything, pobe.
And, NO, I'm not saying that John cares less about the quality of music than his unpleasant friend. So don't go there. *grin* I'm replying to the context of Rachel's comment, not John's.
There tends to be a looser feel about folk festival sessions as opposed to those held on a regular basis within pubs. With the latter, you generally know where to fit in and what suits you best. Some can be a bit cliquish but I find that this has nothing to do with the quality of the music or whether or not they play ITM. In fact, whenever I'm in Ireland itself, I find the sessions very welcoming and the standards high. I think as long as visitors to sessions realise their own limitations and contribute appropriately with respect for the other musicians, then there's no real reason why they shouldn't be welcome. Incidentally, this applies whether or not you consider yourself to be a better or lesser musician than the other members. Also, although there is a crossover of material these days, it's only common sense to play the dominant style of music within the particular session.
The festival I mentioned, Newcastleton, is quite interesting because of its location within the Scottish Borders. Several sessions occur simultaneously and you get musicians, singers and styles from Scotland, North of England, lots of Irish players(from all over)and even bluegrass. This individual usually spends most of his time in a "mixed" session and tends to sing/play guitar although I've known him to sometimes sit in and accompany instrumental sessions. I think his gripe was that he had never heard me play at all as opposed to me being a poor musician. Thus, the dig about me showing off by carrying an instrument case.
Rachael, your observations about most musicians getting along with each other are correct. They do generally, although there is sometimes friendly rivalry in certain situations. I certainly didn't allow this incident to put me off playing. In fact, I played even more than usual for the rest of the weekend and made a point of leading a few tunes--with the approval of my fellow musicians. Whether or not the guy noticed, I was past caring by this time.
Rachel is probably right - there are listening sessions (expert players) , playing sessions (intermediate players) and learning/teaching sessions and they don't usually mix.
I go to and enjoy all 3, but at different places.
Not so nice people at sessions
Not so nice people at sessions
I was visiting Newcastleton Folk festival at the weekend when I overhead a quite obnoxious individual (Someone whom I've never even spoken to before) commenting that I was one of these poseurs who wandered about with an instrument case and couldn't play. Although I'm by no means a first class musician, I'm not the worst either and frequently join in all the various sessions--as I did over the weekend. I do, however, feel that it makes sense to seek out a session and/or musicians who are likely to be playing the same style of music and/or tunes you know. In addition, if the musicians are obviously playing something quite complicated or having a more private "tune", I am reluctant to barge in spoil it for others.
This person (Whom I wouldn't name, even if I knew) has been coming to the festival for a few years now and is one of those "I'm going to play for you if you want to hear me or not" types and is admittedly quite competent at bashing out a few chords--at "Farmer's corner"- I've heard him sing some great songs such as My old man's a dustbin. Not.
I must admit that I was a little upset and irritated by this man's comments so perhaps I should change my approach. Instead of giving respect to other musicians, I could enter into sessions and take them over---forcing my own repertoire down people's throats. Another good move would be starting up my own tune/song at the next table before other players have finished.
On the other hand, I think it's better to respect your fellow musicians and play when approriate. Admittedly, I could and should start/lead more tunes than I do but that's surely a matter for me and not a problem for anyone else.
John
# Posted on July 6th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
People like that... try to simply ignore them... at least, that's what I do. And keep showing that you're much better, respecting other people! Perhaps, some day, they will stop. Or perhaps not. But if we ignore them, we won't really care.
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
John,
I know at least one box player who turns up half-way through a session then starts 2 out of 3 tunes at full volume with a very smug look on his face for the rest of the time. He is a reasonable player but does not listen to anyone else. I have nothing against box players but because he is loud he can blast away and the only option is to follow him or jump in as he plays his last chord and start a tune he doesn't know - not the best way to encourage everyone to play together! I'm sure it is all about listening to and respecting other musicians - start/lead tunes as you feel like it. The other option would be to get an empty case and wander around the festival and join in at his sessions by proceeding to take nothing out of your empty case, followed by 'damn, has anyone seen my banjo/fiddle/guitar?'
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Yohan
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Good advice "pobe".........
sort of what I tried to do with your "play the bodhran with a penknife" interruption, that you just couldn't resist, into our conversation with drummaker Seamus O'Kane son, Murrough, the other day.
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Not to worry, John. Sometimes people like that are trying to sound cool and in the know (especially if they're backers, I mean, c'mon) because they feel insecure themselves (which is often why they feel that they have to try to take over a session as well), and it somehow makes them feel better to try and posture someone else as less skilled a player than themselves; so -- sucks to be them, and don't let them get you down. What they don't realize is that EVERY player (from the best on down) is insecure about their abilities and they could probably get more points by admitting it, like the rest of us. ;)
Zina
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
This person sounds like a walking ego battling for attention to me. I know a few people round my way like that. Thankfully, I've never come across anything like that at my session, but it's his problem John. Sessions should be inclusive affairs, where all musicians can feel a part of it. Unfortunately, even in the world of music, there are insecure, egotistical individuals who have to try and make themselves look good at the expense of everybody else. Just keep doing what you are doing, and most importantly, don't feel discouraged because of it.
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Highly Strung!!
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
all ya need do is prove him wrong. next time you see him pull out your instrument and belt out a few tunes. if he does have such a big ego he'll join in and, lets face it, try and take over, but he'll realise he was wrong. fair enough the chances of getting an apology is slim but it might make you feel better! why not start a session of your own? it doesn't take much to gather a group of friends and let rip! don't let what he said get to you whatever happens!
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by marymccaffrey
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
I think i know the type of character your talking about John. If i included my true feelings for these type of people, Jeremy would probably ban me from the site( and rightly so) .
All you can do is try to ignore these types. I found it very difficult to go to sessions because being a learner and not being able to play like a superstar. The session i do go to now and again is brilliant because all the peole there are excellent musicians who do not have to try to impress anybody, the music they play does that. There is one idiot that turns up and he is the only one that does'nt even say hello to any beginners, never mind encouraging them. The "i'm too good to play with these amateurs" expression on his face gets up my nose. Every time he is there i think to myself, "if this a**h**e is so good he'd be playing professionally and not here in a house with other AMATEURS".
Feck the begrudgers
keep the faith
celtic
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
A guy at my work whom I was helping do some Electron Microscopy said to me something like "all that Irish Music crap you play...a load of sh!t"...
...or some such offense. He was trying to be funny!?!?! - a sort of wind up. This guy is from Glasgow and is a Celtic supporter as well.
Oh well, shame, cos he'll have to learn the techniques of EM out of a book now.....Pity....
Danny.
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Alf Tupper
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Danny,
"this guy is from Glasgow and a Celtic supporter aswell". He is obviously ignorant and showed it when talking to you about ITM.
What is the point of your comment????? Is it that because i support the same football team as this idiot(ya and there are enough idiots supporting Celtic) then you are assuming that i must be as ignorant as him????????
Why the nasty undertone???
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Um. I'd have thought that Danny was trying to say that perhaps the guy should have known better, myself...
zls
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
irish ruff, sorry about the pen knife interruption. I feel really bad now... It was meant as a joke. Sorry.
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Hey Celtic, mellow out, will ye!
Zina got it in one....you'd have thought he'd have known better, that's all. He's no idiot - just trying to be a smart-ass.
Best,
Danny
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by Alf Tupper
Re: Not so nice to clever people at sessions
The only course of action is to gang up on him. Get everyone else to play a discordant drone under his tune if he is too loud.
Try calling his bluff and play a few tunes in B or Eb.
Try playing faster than he can. (contrary to session practise, I know, but needs must).
# Posted on July 7th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Is this a common thing with Irish sessions?! I only go to sessions to listen but the musicians generally seem happy with each other. I do admit that I've noticed the sessions that are considered "mean" have better music. Whereas the ones people say everybody is nice & welcoming aren't always as good.
Please don't get mad, if the perspective of an outsider is not welcome here I don't want to cause any waves.
luv rach
# Posted on July 8th 2003 by Rachel123
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Hi Rachel -- no, it's not common only to Irish sessions, it's common whenever you have people being people.
IE: everywhere. The thing being, "mean" sessions tend to be ones where people care about the music and the quality of the music, right about the same level or above the quality of the crack. This is not normally a problem until you have someone coming to the session who has different priorities from the average of the rest of the group (and since this is a group form of music...). That doesn't make it BAD, but it does mean that there's a disconnect in the group, and the fallout can be...unpleasant.
I thought pobe was being funny (since slagging bodhrans and their players is something of a cultural thing in Irish music, and the bodhranistas with the skin thickness rivalling and surpassing their drum heads are the ones everyone likes to hang out with because they can not only take the heat in the kitchen but are often the ones warming up the oven), actually, so don't go opening a vein or anything, pobe.
Zina
# Posted on July 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
P.S.
And, NO, I'm not saying that John cares less about the quality of music than his unpleasant friend. So don't go there. *grin* I'm replying to the context of Rachel's comment, not John's.
zls
# Posted on July 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Fair enough Danny,
i must have got the wrong end of the stick
apologies
# Posted on July 8th 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Thanks for all your comments so far.
There tends to be a looser feel about folk festival sessions as opposed to those held on a regular basis within pubs. With the latter, you generally know where to fit in and what suits you best. Some can be a bit cliquish but I find that this has nothing to do with the quality of the music or whether or not they play ITM. In fact, whenever I'm in Ireland itself, I find the sessions very welcoming and the standards high. I think as long as visitors to sessions realise their own limitations and contribute appropriately with respect for the other musicians, then there's no real reason why they shouldn't be welcome. Incidentally, this applies whether or not you consider yourself to be a better or lesser musician than the other members. Also, although there is a crossover of material these days, it's only common sense to play the dominant style of music within the particular session.
The festival I mentioned, Newcastleton, is quite interesting because of its location within the Scottish Borders. Several sessions occur simultaneously and you get musicians, singers and styles from Scotland, North of England, lots of Irish players(from all over)and even bluegrass. This individual usually spends most of his time in a "mixed" session and tends to sing/play guitar although I've known him to sometimes sit in and accompany instrumental sessions. I think his gripe was that he had never heard me play at all as opposed to me being a poor musician. Thus, the dig about me showing off by carrying an instrument case.
Rachael, your observations about most musicians getting along with each other are correct. They do generally, although there is sometimes friendly rivalry in certain situations. I certainly didn't allow this incident to put me off playing. In fact, I played even more than usual for the rest of the weekend and made a point of leading a few tunes--with the approval of my fellow musicians. Whether or not the guy noticed, I was past caring by this time.
John
# Posted on July 8th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
Rachel is probably right - there are listening sessions (expert players) , playing sessions (intermediate players) and learning/teaching sessions and they don't usually mix.
I go to and enjoy all 3, but at different places.
# Posted on July 8th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Not so nice people at sessions
There's absolutely no need to worry about my veins, but thanks anyway.
/Pontus - who's tired of working and wish he could spend the whole day fiddling...
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Pontus Adefjord