I normally try to be positive and helpful in my postings here, but....
Experiences over a few years came into focus recently in comparing two festival sessions. One billed as "Irish," the other predominantly "English."
Whatever you might think of the music played, the English session was a pleasant, friendly, cheerful, environment, (as it happens, the tunes were being played to a high standard as well.) People were having a good time.
Compared with that the Irish session was like a gathering of werewolves, everyone looking at each other suspiciously, sticking tightly to their little groups where a few people knew each other. Few seemed willing to dare to start well known tunes, everyone had to drag out their own stuff, (and didn't some of them drag on!) The atmosphere was not pleasant, it was hard to believe that folk were there for pleasure.
Okay, these may have been extreme examples in each case, (and maybe I'm exaggerating a bit) but I realised that this was a pattern I'd come across before. "Irish" sessions seeming to take themselves so desperately seriously, a fundamentally disagreeable atmosphere of disapproval and competitiveness, and a very different environment from other styles of session I go to.
(Apart from at festivals, most of my session playing has been in England at "mixed" sessions, some Irish music, but not exclusively.)
Don't get me wrong, I love Irish music, love to play it and listen to it, so I hope I may just have been unlucky, or is this actually just the way it is, so "get used to it?"
It can be like that at times, I can remember sessions of a high standard who simply played for themselves and the rest of the venue simply did not exist. Anyone joining in would have felt unwelcome.
In Milton last week people seemed happy to launch into a set, there were no leaders and no egos and it was great.
I've gotten a taste or two or what you're saying, however in my neck of the woods we're the opposite of what you're decrying. Even in the big city (Tampa, Miami) it's friendly, no attitude problems. My father has begun attending sessions in his locale (St. Louis) and his reports are nothing but positive, same as I've got for you down this way.
I have young children and work a 9-5, so I don't get to go roving to strange sessions all over the planet. I'm eager to read more responses from parts elsewhere.
Oh yes, Mr. Bliss brings up a good point. I know in spots where there are lots of musicians, those of a higher skill level may flock together and create an advanced session of sorts.
Here in the boonies we have no such luxuries, we simply play to the skill level of whoever starts the set.
I totally share Bliss' experience. It's easy to find sessions which are essentially c*ck-size contests. You know, who can play the most obscure tunes the fastest. They can be and usually are brilliant musicians.
Like Bliss, I encountered none of that in Miltown last week. Every session I played at was thankfully free from ego and testosterone overdosing. It was a great week for the music.
Unfortunately I did not, to my knowledge, encounter Bliss. :(
I tend to find festival sessions in Britain ( and i think that is the point of the post ) very variable yes some are Em described they should not be compared with Irish festivals . I tend to avoid the ones that are 'official' Irish sessions and look for the alturnative . I quite like a mixed session as long as it is predominantly Irish . I think this is mainly an English festival thing however .Never seen an English session in Ireland
The English trad scene hasn't included much of the competitive set-up that is promoted by Comhaltas and the fleadhs: the mini-scene of that kind in Northumberland is rather an exception. In England in general it remains - or at any rate is seen as - just another eccentric hobby. English trad with exceptions doesn't require virtuosity to play it well so much as familiarity - so those who start playing it when past their first youth don't have to be quite as intense about it as those of a similar age trying to master Irish music. So yes, it strikes me as more relaxed on the whole.
That's very interesting FtT, I know what TomB means about some sessions being a bit 'exclusive' and as I'm visiting Co. Cork (near Bandon) in a week or so I'd be glad of a bit of information where I might find some good 'mixed' sessions as well as the 'all Irish'. Not being a high speed/multi thousand tune memory player I must admit I was a bit apprehensive about going to the kind of session Tom describes by accident and then not contributing or enjoying the experience.
So, folks, I'd be very much beholden for some suggestions!
floss the tethers,could you elucidate.
do you mean irish music played by english people ,or do you mean english people playing english music.
or are you just lumping all west cork musicians together as one.
musicians are musicians regardless of nationality.
.there are plenty of irish musicains playing irish music in west cork,and they often play with english/german/portuguese or any other nationality.
how often do you travel to west cork?are you condemning sessions led by SeamusCreagh,Richie Tisdall,Tom Sullivan,Liam Kenneally,Hugh Quinn,Brendan MaCarthy,Paul Kelly,Dorian Kelly,Johnny Coakley[ex boys of the lough]Mary Tisdall,
TomB-R. I sent you an e-mail via the site, but I'm not sure it got to you. I know what you mean, and that was something of what I meant on *my* 'taking it too seriously' thread the other day.
Hey, where are you based? You must be close to me. Maybe we could meet up in some session some time ...
I have run into overly serious and puffed up musicians, but never a whole session of them. There are a few sessions I have avoided after checking them out in punter mode, mostly because the playing was clearly above my level, but that is not a fault on their part, it is a lack of ability to keep up on my part. I don't want all sessions to be on my level, if that was the case, the music would be pretty mediocre.
I didn't think it was...however I would like to indulge in a bit of music making without making a complete pr*t of myself! i.e. not able and/or not wanted. I have reports of English musicians who are 'multi-region' being well received in Ireland. I wouldn't want to intrude but on the other hand don't want to miss out. I have looked at the session.org list but a lot of the those listed are quite old - are they still current or defunct?
And as far as English musicians not being precious about their music, try getting into the session that features a certain East Anglian box player! If it doesn't suit he's likely to tell you to go forth and multiply.
God forbid anyone would remember you. Though there was one really brilliant bodhran player I kept seeing around who was generally playing at sessions that were way too good for me to go near except as a listener.
Of course, now I am getting paranoid. Have I encountered you at a session and am blanking on it in the sleep-deprived haze.
nicholas, as it happens, a friend of a friend related a sad tale of how an aspiring individual got less than encouragement, 'allegedly' - mind the libel laws, I ought to but I'm pretty confident of the source. That particular session is 'life but not as we know it' . A funny bloke, maybe, but then he's not here to speak up for himself (as far as I know) and I don't have all the details - two sides to every story don't you know.
Dear Silver Spear, there are many brilliant bodhran players, it is after all a relatively simple instrument, as long as the player realises that and does not over indulge. A gentleman beside me in the Belbridge was excellent, looked like the soccer manager Luis Scolari.
And if you can manage a bodhran to a degree of competence, you can sit in at most sessions, unlike "melody" instruments.
I didn't see too many bodhrans about, so maybe Mr Llig will visit some day.
john knoss ,
perhaps he[floss], shouldnt say uncomplimentary things about west cork sessions/ musicians, of course he is entitled to his opinion.
but he could answer my question,then we would know how seriously to take his criticisms.or whether he is generalising from having attended one duff session.
West Cork is sufferring from the closureof the Swansea Cork ferry,unhelpful comments like this from Floss the Tethers are not what is needed.
Tuesday night, Paragon Skibbereen,,
sunday, sibin near Baltimore ;june 20,Brendan Macarthy and friends 4 30.in afternoon.friday night session 10 pm in Ballydehob.
Cork city,has loads of sessions
Clonakilty, also has plenty.Monday Night Trad Sessions, O'Donovans Tuesday Trad and Shanley's Famous Music Bar a mainstay of Clonakilty's love affair with music. De Barras Folk Club is the most famous pub in the town.
ODonovans: I can recommend.
There were very few bodhrans. For that matter there were very few guitars as well. The bouzouki is the trendy thing to accompany music on and there were lots of those wandering around. Many other sessions went unaccompanied. It's the dream festival of a lot of people.
I think Floss was speaking tongue in cheek, West Cork having been invaded by English settlers. If you are lucky you can join Jeremy Irons in a session.
Yep, tongue firmly in cheek - I'd have made exactly the same point about certain parts of counties Kerry and Wexford.
I hardly think any comments made on this board are likely to affect tourism in West Cork (which I have visited many times, by the way). Some people really should untwist their knickers!
Thanks for the tip lazyhound, I'll try and mind my p's and q's if I run across him. Do I address him as your Highness or what?
So, West Cork is overun with Brit ex-pats eh? My aunt and uncle lived for many years in Clon before moving back to England. Will I really get to see Jeremy Irons? Gosh...
Thanks for the information Dickens, a good start there - Sun, Mon, and Tues taken care of; now for the rest of the week. My missus is going to kill me. Family holiday? yeah right...
Agreed Floss, more likely the coming effects of the 'credit crunch' (and I think you ain't seen nothing yet) are going to be far more influential than anything we say here.
I'm looking forward to my first visit to the locale.
I did get to see Jeremy Irons' castle a couple of years ago - almost close enough to knock on the door, but didn't. The castle's an odd pinkish colour (two years ago), and I think the intention is that it will gradually fade or something with time and blend in. We went to see a ruined chapel - a broken chancel with a broken cross, very Arthurian - that's virtually next door, but the burial ground surrounding the chapel appears to be still used by the local parish.
It would be tactless to mention in this context the so-called "Galway tuning" which seems to us lesser mortals to exist to exclude anyone with an untuneable instrument.
"Irish" sessions and the others...
"Irish" sessions and the others...
I normally try to be positive and helpful in my postings here, but....
Experiences over a few years came into focus recently in comparing two festival sessions. One billed as "Irish," the other predominantly "English."
Whatever you might think of the music played, the English session was a pleasant, friendly, cheerful, environment, (as it happens, the tunes were being played to a high standard as well.) People were having a good time.
Compared with that the Irish session was like a gathering of werewolves, everyone looking at each other suspiciously, sticking tightly to their little groups where a few people knew each other. Few seemed willing to dare to start well known tunes, everyone had to drag out their own stuff, (and didn't some of them drag on!) The atmosphere was not pleasant, it was hard to believe that folk were there for pleasure.
Okay, these may have been extreme examples in each case, (and maybe I'm exaggerating a bit) but I realised that this was a pattern I'd come across before. "Irish" sessions seeming to take themselves so desperately seriously, a fundamentally disagreeable atmosphere of disapproval and competitiveness, and a very different environment from other styles of session I go to.
(Apart from at festivals, most of my session playing has been in England at "mixed" sessions, some Irish music, but not exclusively.)
Don't get me wrong, I love Irish music, love to play it and listen to it, so I hope I may just have been unlucky, or is this actually just the way it is, so "get used to it?"
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
It can be like that at times, I can remember sessions of a high standard who simply played for themselves and the rest of the venue simply did not exist. Anyone joining in would have felt unwelcome.
In Milton last week people seemed happy to launch into a set, there were no leaders and no egos and it was great.
So, I suppose it is a matter of luck.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
I've gotten a taste or two or what you're saying, however in my neck of the woods we're the opposite of what you're decrying. Even in the big city (Tampa, Miami) it's friendly, no attitude problems. My father has begun attending sessions in his locale (St. Louis) and his reports are nothing but positive, same as I've got for you down this way.
I have young children and work a 9-5, so I don't get to go roving to strange sessions all over the planet. I'm eager to read more responses from parts elsewhere.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Oh yes, Mr. Bliss brings up a good point. I know in spots where there are lots of musicians, those of a higher skill level may flock together and create an advanced session of sorts.
Here in the boonies we have no such luxuries, we simply play to the skill level of whoever starts the set.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
I totally share Bliss' experience. It's easy to find sessions which are essentially c*ck-size contests. You know, who can play the most obscure tunes the fastest. They can be and usually are brilliant musicians.
Like Bliss, I encountered none of that in Miltown last week. Every session I played at was thankfully free from ego and testosterone overdosing. It was a great week for the music.
Unfortunately I did not, to my knowledge, encounter Bliss. :(
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
I tend to find festival sessions in Britain ( and i think that is the point of the post ) very variable yes some are Em described they should not be compared with Irish festivals . I tend to avoid the ones that are 'official' Irish sessions and look for the alturnative . I quite like a mixed session as long as it is predominantly Irish . I think this is mainly an English festival thing however .Never seen an English session in Ireland
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
'Never seen an English session in Ireland .'
You should visit West Cork more often, Dave!
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
The English trad scene hasn't included much of the competitive set-up that is promoted by Comhaltas and the fleadhs: the mini-scene of that kind in Northumberland is rather an exception. In England in general it remains - or at any rate is seen as - just another eccentric hobby. English trad with exceptions doesn't require virtuosity to play it well so much as familiarity - so those who start playing it when past their first youth don't have to be quite as intense about it as those of a similar age trying to master Irish music. So yes, it strikes me as more relaxed on the whole.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by nicholas
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
That's very interesting FtT, I know what TomB means about some sessions being a bit 'exclusive' and as I'm visiting Co. Cork (near Bandon) in a week or so I'd be glad of a bit of information where I might find some good 'mixed' sessions as well as the 'all Irish'. Not being a high speed/multi thousand tune memory player I must admit I was a bit apprehensive about going to the kind of session Tom describes by accident and then not contributing or enjoying the experience.
So, folks, I'd be very much beholden for some suggestions!
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by john knoss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Unfortunately I did not, to my knowledge, encounter Bliss. :(
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
I would have remembered a long haired USA piper, and then you would have remembered me for pestering you.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
John,
My point was not made as a recommendation!
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
floss the tethers,could you elucidate.
do you mean irish music played by english people ,or do you mean english people playing english music.
or are you just lumping all west cork musicians together as one.
musicians are musicians regardless of nationality.
.there are plenty of irish musicains playing irish music in west cork,and they often play with english/german/portuguese or any other nationality.
how often do you travel to west cork?are you condemning sessions led by SeamusCreagh,Richie Tisdall,Tom Sullivan,Liam Kenneally,Hugh Quinn,Brendan MaCarthy,Paul Kelly,Dorian Kelly,Johnny Coakley[ex boys of the lough]Mary Tisdall,
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Oh .....and Marie Cotter,AnneCouglan,John Donovan,Grainne o Donovan all of whom are west cork musicians.,give me time, I could find plenty more.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
TomB-R. I sent you an e-mail via the site, but I'm not sure it got to you. I know what you mean, and that was something of what I meant on *my* 'taking it too seriously' thread the other day.
Hey, where are you based? You must be close to me. Maybe we could meet up in some session some time ...
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
I have run into overly serious and puffed up musicians, but never a whole session of them. There are a few sessions I have avoided after checking them out in punter mode, mostly because the playing was clearly above my level, but that is not a fault on their part, it is a lack of ability to keep up on my part. I don't want all sessions to be on my level, if that was the case, the music would be pretty mediocre.
# Posted on July 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Floss,
I didn't think it was...however I would like to indulge in a bit of music making without making a complete pr*t of myself! i.e. not able and/or not wanted. I have reports of English musicians who are 'multi-region' being well received in Ireland. I wouldn't want to intrude but on the other hand don't want to miss out. I have looked at the session.org list but a lot of the those listed are quite old - are they still current or defunct?
And as far as English musicians not being precious about their music, try getting into the session that features a certain East Anglian box player! If it doesn't suit he's likely to tell you to go forth and multiply.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by john knoss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Dickens,
I was only after a bit of info...give yer man a break, huh?
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by john knoss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Not Tony Hall, is it? I hope not, but he's a funny bloke by some accounts.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by nicholas
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
God forbid anyone would remember you. Though there was one really brilliant bodhran player I kept seeing around who was generally playing at sessions that were way too good for me to go near except as a listener.
Of course, now I am getting paranoid. Have I encountered you at a session and am blanking on it in the sleep-deprived haze.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
nicholas, as it happens, a friend of a friend related a sad tale of how an aspiring individual got less than encouragement, 'allegedly' - mind the libel laws, I ought to but I'm pretty confident of the source. That particular session is 'life but not as we know it' . A funny bloke, maybe, but then he's not here to speak up for himself (as far as I know) and I don't have all the details - two sides to every story don't you know.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by john knoss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Dear Silver Spear, there are many brilliant bodhran players, it is after all a relatively simple instrument, as long as the player realises that and does not over indulge. A gentleman beside me in the Belbridge was excellent, looked like the soccer manager Luis Scolari.
And if you can manage a bodhran to a degree of competence, you can sit in at most sessions, unlike "melody" instruments.
I didn't see too many bodhrans about, so maybe Mr Llig will visit some day.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
john knoss ,
perhaps he[floss], shouldnt say uncomplimentary things about west cork sessions/ musicians, of course he is entitled to his opinion.
but he could answer my question,then we would know how seriously to take his criticisms.or whether he is generalising from having attended one duff session.
West Cork is sufferring from the closureof the Swansea Cork ferry,unhelpful comments like this from Floss the Tethers are not what is needed.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Tuesday night, Paragon Skibbereen,,
sunday, sibin near Baltimore ;june 20,Brendan Macarthy and friends 4 30.in afternoon.friday night session 10 pm in Ballydehob.
Cork city,has loads of sessions
Clonakilty, also has plenty.Monday Night Trad Sessions, O'Donovans Tuesday Trad and Shanley's Famous Music Bar a mainstay of Clonakilty's love affair with music. De Barras Folk Club is the most famous pub in the town.
ODonovans: I can recommend.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
There were very few bodhrans. For that matter there were very few guitars as well. The bouzouki is the trendy thing to accompany music on and there were lots of those wandering around. Many other sessions went unaccompanied. It's the dream festival of a lot of people.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
I think Floss was speaking tongue in cheek, West Cork having been invaded by English settlers. If you are lucky you can join Jeremy Irons in a session.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Yep, tongue firmly in cheek - I'd have made exactly the same point about certain parts of counties Kerry and Wexford.
I hardly think any comments made on this board are likely to affect tourism in West Cork (which I have visited many times, by the way). Some people really should untwist their knickers!
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Be very careful - Member Number 1 comes from Cobh.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
... and Cobh is certainly not in West Cork!
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Thanks for the tip lazyhound, I'll try and mind my p's and q's if I run across him. Do I address him as your Highness or what?
So, West Cork is overun with Brit ex-pats eh? My aunt and uncle lived for many years in Clon before moving back to England. Will I really get to see Jeremy Irons? Gosh...
Thanks for the information Dickens, a good start there - Sun, Mon, and Tues taken care of; now for the rest of the week. My missus is going to kill me. Family holiday? yeah right...
Agreed Floss, more likely the coming effects of the 'credit crunch' (and I think you ain't seen nothing yet) are going to be far more influential than anything we say here.
I'm looking forward to my first visit to the locale.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by john knoss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
Beautiful part of the country. I was in love with a girl from Roscarberry way back in 1970. Obviously called McCarthy, that's the only name in Cork.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
I did get to see Jeremy Irons' castle a couple of years ago - almost close enough to knock on the door, but didn't. The castle's an odd pinkish colour (two years ago), and I think the intention is that it will gradually fade or something with time and blend in. We went to see a ruined chapel - a broken chancel with a broken cross, very Arthurian - that's virtually next door, but the burial ground surrounding the chapel appears to be still used by the local parish.
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
It would be tactless to mention in this context the so-called "Galway tuning" which seems to us lesser mortals to exist to exclude anyone with an untuneable instrument.
Oops! I mentioned it!
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
"... and Cobh is certainly not in West Cork!"
Agreed, but nevertheless close enough for resonance!
# Posted on July 16th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: "Irish" sessions and the others...
you sound like a nice person tloss the weathers
# Posted on July 17th 2008 by gedpipes