Before you answer the question, please know that I am not out to judge anyone, put down anyone or criticize anyone and only have high regard for anyone who plays the instrument. Please be honest.
Who plays the fiddle and has NEVER had suzuki or classical training?
I was classically trained on piano, but I haven't touched a piano in over a decade, and I wasn't classically or Suzuki trained on violin. In fact, when people ask me about my violin, it often takes me a few seconds to figure out what they're talking about. I play fiddle, not violin! I think I'm the only fiddle player of non-Celtic descent that I know who didn't start on classical violin. Anyone else?
Seven years on from starting playing the fiddle I'm now having Suzuki lessons. But I've been playing classical cello and piano for at least half a century - so does that come within the ambit of the question?
I had six years of it as a child, which I then banished to my subconscious for 15 more years until I picked it back up to play Irish. Does that count?
I can't tell you the first thing about it, it's all a bit fuzzy, stress-related amnesia, I believe.
Seriously, it was a great help, because all that early learning stuff about how to physically play the instrument properly will always be with me, I don't even have to think consciously about it.
I did classical violin and viola as a child (I wouldn't really say "formal" training) and started fiddle a few years ago at 37. My daughter started Suzuki piano at about the same time (she was 5) and I learned some good tricks from her training, such as listening to a recording of the tune/tunes you want to learn as often as possible, practice regularly even if for a short time, and breaking tunes into chunks.
Ok, it seems that some think this is silly or there's an alterior motive... Theres really not.
I mean as a "self taught" fiddler I break all the rules even... "no vibrato" ever they say! Well I notice Im doing something with many notes that I play even in reels, maybe not vibrato in the strictest sense but I like to manipulate the note to make it sound like I want it ...and sometimes its vibrato.
There must be more out there? Again Im not attacking you if youve done suzuki or classical... no need to defend that... as they say in Dublin "Its all good." RIght?
I forgot I had a few classical lessons in the beginning just to learn to hold the thing. Guess I got distracted by the memory of my sweet honda minibike. I took a book of reels from the Armagh Piper's Club to one of those lessons - I'm sure you can all fill in the rest...
I haven't done Suzuki, but my impression is that it involves a good amount of experimentation too, and that really seems to be the key to get anywhere in any kind of music
I was self-taught for a couple years - and remember, self taught means your teacher is an ignoramus ;'-) -- but I've been taking lessons from a mentor who teaches by ear. After I've "learned" a tune (more like shakily memorized it) I'm given sheet music as an aide memoire, but I try not to refer to it. Instead I find as many versions of the tune as I can, make a playlist on my iPod and listen and play as much as possible. No classical training though.
My first vehiccle was a Vespa. Yahoo!! Did all of 15 kms/hour up the hills, and 55 down the hills if you were lucky. Carried the horse feed in a bucket between my feet. Bluudy cold in the early mornings even in summer and soooooooooo slow. Suzukis weren't flat between the feet like the Vespas. One of my sons had Suzuki violin a few years as a youngster ... and when I took up the fiddle after a 16+ year gap, he was able to pick up my fiddle and play it, whereas I wasn't ... the answer to your question McCracken is no.
McCracken, my old violin teacher used to say that vibrato couldn't be taught and that it would be learned naturally. And he was right, he didn't teach me vibrato but at some point it just happened.
So that's probably what you're doing, it's just a natural thing to do to add something to the note you're playing. I imagine that pretty much all fiddlers figure out vibrato at some point whether they have classical training or not.
Take the "no vibrato" thing with a grain of salt. A little here and there in the right place can sound good, as long as it's a pretty minimal kind of vibrato. The real problem is the reverse: in classical playing the rule is vibrato on almost every note, which sounds absolutely tragic in a fiddle tune.
I took some lessons from a very good violinist and teacher in college *after* I'd been playing fiddle for 5 or 6 years. I wanted to improve my tone and bow control--and to make sure I wasn't doing anything harmful over the long haul with how I held the fiddle and bow, and the mechanics of playing.
In the end, I think it helped my ear more than any other aspect. I learned to listen more closely and deeply to the sounds a bow can draw out of a fiddle. My teacher also gave me a confidence boost by praising my bow hand in my very first lesson. And my teacher became a good friend, never mind our divergent musical tastes.
Zundap flat four c.g.? your givin your age away there matey.. lol
I,m like you though no training all self taught and i just started fiddle myself about 8 weeks ago..
"It's all good" McCracken? In Dublin? We're so sorry. You're right though, if the end product (the music) is all good, then "It's all good".
I think the only true danger is ergonomic. Playing this goofy thing is dangerous enough. I cringe with worry when I see fiddlers with extreme traditional techniques that look painful.
No lessons at all (on any instrument), but a couple of workshops (pretty useless, anyone can learn _tunes_ on their own). I've even played in the local (amateur) symphony orchestra but have now "retired" from that.
I think it's important to put this "self taught" thing into perspective.
If you truly are self taught, you'd be absolutely rubbish. You cannot take an instrument out of it's box, having never seen or heard anybody play one ever, and make it sound any good. It's impossible.
I've never had any of those formal hour things where the status is fixed. But that's not to say I'm self taught. I learned first from my dad's Bothy Band records, and then when I was old enough, the people I met in the pub, people who became mates. And I learned from listening and watching people on the telly etc. What I never did was teach myself.
i started when i was 7 and did classical for three years until grade 2, although i was doing trad at the time because im from a musical family. starting out with classical was incredibly useful for bowing, fingering, all of the basics that you need. then of course went to trad techers and listened and went to fests and so on.
good point llig, I thought what we were doing here was simply dividing the group into classically and non-classically trained so we can use that information against each other later?
Well, I'm pleased to see there are opinions about the merits of motorbikes here, but opinionated Americans should bear in mind the latest important research results published in the Onion...
airport-- no, I wouldnt do that. I have opinions but Im not mean.
Llig- I hesitated when I wrote self taught so I put that "self taught" in parentheses because I agree with you. I did a lot of listening/watching others before I even took out the fiddle.
Eventually all that listening and learning forced me to play the crazy instrument--- something inside said YOU WILL FIDDLE! I couldnt stop it.
Hey, I've had classical training on that violin thing. There's some sounds in my profile if y'all wanna tell me I'm doing it all wrong
My fiancee, acaretta, has not. However, she plays a mean "britches full of stitches" on fiddle. She'd still rather play bodhran and whistle regardless.
“Self taught” _is_ a bit innacurate. Nobody’s in a vacuum. When I first picked up the fiddle I’d been listening to a lot of folk music, mostly Americana, ie. Carter family, old-timey and bluegrass, playing it on guitar and mandolin, but I had an old Dubliners cassette tape I just loved. I bought Mel Bay’s “You Can Teach Yourself The Fiddle” that included Irish Washerwoman, Haste to the Wedding, Road to Lisdoonvarna, Swallowtail Jig and Harvest Home. I eventually got Kevin Burke’s first video. But I also really hadn’t a clue as how to actually play – a condition some might point out hasn’t changed much – I just listened to tunes I liked and tried to recreate them by ear. But there was nobody that I could sit down with and ask questions or even watch up close. For a while, I tightened my bow until it had a positive arc, good thing it was a cheap fiberglass one. I was also under the impression that you should detune the strings after every playing so as not to stress the instrument. That was a major hassle to retune every time so I stopped doing that and took my chances. For about a year, I played with this stupid wooden dowel rolling around inside, I couldn’t figure out how to remove it.
I started piano lessons at 5, then the violin in 4th grade when I found this "guitar thingy" in the closet. I brought it to school and was told, "My dear, that's a violin." I was a classical geek until the year 2000, when I first tried fiddling. Granted, it was during my masters degree in music, so it was still a geek thing.
Since then, I have quit the symphony, quit my job as a music teacher. I still play quartets because the $$ comes in handy. I am going back to school this fall to become a chef. I am trying to get away from organized music, much in the way someone that has been raised in a church, has become disillusioned and leaves organized religion.
Point? I'm seeking the organic nature of my love for the violin, how to enjoy it because I don't have to do it. I want to do it. And depending on the musical environment in my new location this fall, I may even dip my toe back into the classical realm. Whatever I do with it, it will be a choice, not an expectation. For the fun of it.
I'm going to be 50 this year, and I figured it's about time that I straightened things out in my head... and heart!
I was at a session several years ago, and played a tune that only one or two other people played along with. When I finished, a flute player who hadn't played along asked me, "Do you have any classical training?" I said, "Oh, gosh no, I've only taken irish fiddle lessons my whole life." He replied, in front of the entire session, "Yeah, you can tell. You have the worst form of anyone I know." I never went back to that session.
I've had neither classical nor Suzuki training, although I was given instruction in general music theory by several educated friends when I started 35 yrs. ago. This rudimentary knowledge and encouragement, yoked to a hunger for proper technique and sound, eventually produced a damn competent fiddler.
I really couldn't say which motorbike I started on.
At some point I remember someone had a Honda MiniTrail 50 with the centrifugal clutch.
Still ave my Victor.
It probably isn't advisable to play classic or traditional on a motor bike.
How Many
How Many
Before you answer the question, please know that I am not out to judge anyone, put down anyone or criticize anyone and only have high regard for anyone who plays the instrument. Please be honest.
Who plays the fiddle and has NEVER had suzuki or classical training?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by McCracken
Re: How Many
Ill be first:
I would fall into that category.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by McCracken
Re: How Many
Me.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by soft black stars
Re: How Many
I was classically trained on piano, but I haven't touched a piano in over a decade, and I wasn't classically or Suzuki trained on violin. In fact, when people ask me about my violin, it often takes me a few seconds to figure out what they're talking about. I play fiddle, not violin! I think I'm the only fiddle player of non-Celtic descent that I know who didn't start on classical violin. Anyone else?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: How Many
I've had no fiddle/violin training of any kind. And it probably shows. Where are you going with this?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: How Many
Yes, where are you going with this, exactly? Lots of famous fiddlers have had some classical training, you know.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Marklar
Re: How Many
McCracken, I notice from your bio that you like Kevin Burke's playing. He's had classical training.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Marklar
Re: How Many
What's the point of this thread other than to stir the slurry with a very large spoon?
For the record, I taught myself (and very badly at that).
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: How Many
Seven years on from starting playing the fiddle I'm now having Suzuki lessons. But I've been playing classical cello and piano for at least half a century - so does that come within the ambit of the question?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: How Many
Not a lesson in my life.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: How Many
I only am an ear player - but had a suzuki GT-250,,as a
Teen-- just joking McCracken,,
Abc still almost to hard for me Yet!!
jim,,,
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: How Many
I've never even been in or on a Suzuki, four, three or two wheeled...
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by ceolachan
Hondas and Kawasakis yes...
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How Many
No lessons at all.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by _Jack_
Re: How Many
Screetch--- As I said--- "...I only have high regard for anyone who plays the instrument."
Yes I know many players like Burke have had classical training. Where am I going with this? I dont know for sure.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by McCracken
Re: How Many
I had a kawasaki for a while.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by jgaughan
Re: How Many
I had a Honda Z50R - but no classical training
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by airport
Re: How Many
I once had a Japanese trout rod, but I received no classical training in its use.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by nicholas
Re: How Many
I had six years of it as a child, which I then banished to my subconscious for 15 more years until I picked it back up to play Irish. Does that count?
I can't tell you the first thing about it, it's all a bit fuzzy, stress-related amnesia, I believe.
Seriously, it was a great help, because all that early learning stuff about how to physically play the instrument properly will always be with me, I don't even have to think consciously about it.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How Many
My buddy's got a Suzuki all terrain vehicle that's pretty fun to tool around on, if that helps.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How Many
I did classical violin and viola as a child (I wouldn't really say "formal" training) and started fiddle a few years ago at 37. My daughter started Suzuki piano at about the same time (she was 5) and I learned some good tricks from her training, such as listening to a recording of the tune/tunes you want to learn as often as possible, practice regularly even if for a short time, and breaking tunes into chunks.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by tracywag
Re: How Many
Ok, it seems that some think this is silly or there's an alterior motive... Theres really not.
I mean as a "self taught" fiddler I break all the rules even... "no vibrato" ever they say! Well I notice Im doing something with many notes that I play even in reels, maybe not vibrato in the strictest sense but I like to manipulate the note to make it sound like I want it ...and sometimes its vibrato.
There must be more out there? Again Im not attacking you if youve done suzuki or classical... no need to defend that... as they say in Dublin "Its all good." RIght?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by McCracken
Re: How Many
I forgot I had a few classical lessons in the beginning just to learn to hold the thing. Guess I got distracted by the memory of my sweet honda minibike. I took a book of reels from the Armagh Piper's Club to one of those lessons - I'm sure you can all fill in the rest...
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by airport
Re: How Many
I haven't done Suzuki, but my impression is that it involves a good amount of experimentation too, and that really seems to be the key to get anywhere in any kind of music
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by airport
Re: How Many
I was self-taught for a couple years - and remember, self taught means your teacher is an ignoramus ;'-) -- but I've been taking lessons from a mentor who teaches by ear. After I've "learned" a tune (more like shakily memorized it) I'm given sheet music as an aide memoire, but I try not to refer to it. Instead I find as many versions of the tune as I can, make a playlist on my iPod and listen and play as much as possible. No classical training though.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by fidkid
Re: How Many
My first vehiccle was a Vespa. Yahoo!! Did all of 15 kms/hour up the hills, and 55 down the hills if you were lucky. Carried the horse feed in a bucket between my feet. Bluudy cold in the early mornings even in summer and soooooooooo slow. Suzukis weren't flat between the feet like the Vespas. One of my sons had Suzuki violin a few years as a youngster ... and when I took up the fiddle after a 16+ year gap, he was able to pick up my fiddle and play it, whereas I wasn't ... the answer to your question McCracken is no.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: How Many
McCracken, my old violin teacher used to say that vibrato couldn't be taught and that it would be learned naturally. And he was right, he didn't teach me vibrato but at some point it just happened.
So that's probably what you're doing, it's just a natural thing to do to add something to the note you're playing. I imagine that pretty much all fiddlers figure out vibrato at some point whether they have classical training or not.
Take the "no vibrato" thing with a grain of salt. A little here and there in the right place can sound good, as long as it's a pretty minimal kind of vibrato. The real problem is the reverse: in classical playing the rule is vibrato on almost every note, which sounds absolutely tragic in a fiddle tune.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Marklar
Re: How Many
No classical, no suzuki, but my motorbike was a Zundap. No-one else ever seems to have heard of them.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by c.g.
Re: How Many
I took some lessons from a very good violinist and teacher in college *after* I'd been playing fiddle for 5 or 6 years. I wanted to improve my tone and bow control--and to make sure I wasn't doing anything harmful over the long haul with how I held the fiddle and bow, and the mechanics of playing.
In the end, I think it helped my ear more than any other aspect. I learned to listen more closely and deeply to the sounds a bow can draw out of a fiddle. My teacher also gave me a confidence boost by praising my bow hand in my very first lesson. And my teacher became a good friend, never mind our divergent musical tastes.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: How Many
Zundap flat four c.g.? your givin your age away there matey.. lol
I,m like you though no training all self taught and i just started fiddle myself about 8 weeks ago..
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by pencross
Re: How Many
Good to e-see ya, Professor Will!
"It's all good" McCracken? In Dublin? We're so sorry. You're right though, if the end product (the music) is all good, then "It's all good".
I think the only true danger is ergonomic. Playing this goofy thing is dangerous enough. I cringe with worry when I see fiddlers with extreme traditional techniques that look painful.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How Many
No lessons at all (on any instrument), but a couple of workshops (pretty useless, anyone can learn _tunes_ on their own). I've even played in the local (amateur) symphony orchestra but have now "retired" from that.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by jeff_lindqvist
Re: How Many
No training here, though I sure could have used it.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: How Many
Good to be seen, Ian.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: How Many
I think it's important to put this "self taught" thing into perspective.
If you truly are self taught, you'd be absolutely rubbish. You cannot take an instrument out of it's box, having never seen or heard anybody play one ever, and make it sound any good. It's impossible.
I've never had any of those formal hour things where the status is fixed. But that's not to say I'm self taught. I learned first from my dad's Bothy Band records, and then when I was old enough, the people I met in the pub, people who became mates. And I learned from listening and watching people on the telly etc. What I never did was teach myself.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How Many
i started when i was 7 and did classical for three years until grade 2, although i was doing trad at the time because im from a musical family. starting out with classical was incredibly useful for bowing, fingering, all of the basics that you need. then of course went to trad techers and listened and went to fests and so on.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: How Many
good point llig, I thought what we were doing here was simply dividing the group into classically and non-classically trained so we can use that information against each other later?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by airport
Re: How Many
Speaking of which, has everyone chimed in yet? I need to update my spreadsheet.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How Many
I hope you're not keeping track of the bike info too - some of those low-power Japanese things are equally damning
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by airport
Re: How Many
Well, I'm pleased to see there are opinions about the merits of motorbikes here, but opinionated Americans should bear in mind the latest important research results published in the Onion...
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/study_38_percent_of_people
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: How Many
airport-- no, I wouldnt do that. I have opinions but Im not mean.
Llig- I hesitated when I wrote self taught so I put that "self taught" in parentheses because I agree with you. I did a lot of listening/watching others before I even took out the fiddle.
Eventually all that listening and learning forced me to play the crazy instrument--- something inside said YOU WILL FIDDLE! I couldnt stop it.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by McCracken
Re: How Many
Hey, I've had classical training on that violin thing. There's some sounds in my profile if y'all wanna tell me I'm doing it all wrong
My fiancee, acaretta, has not. However, she plays a mean "britches full of stitches" on fiddle. She'd still rather play bodhran and whistle regardless.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by reenactor
Re: How Many
“Self taught” _is_ a bit innacurate. Nobody’s in a vacuum. When I first picked up the fiddle I’d been listening to a lot of folk music, mostly Americana, ie. Carter family, old-timey and bluegrass, playing it on guitar and mandolin, but I had an old Dubliners cassette tape I just loved. I bought Mel Bay’s “You Can Teach Yourself The Fiddle” that included Irish Washerwoman, Haste to the Wedding, Road to Lisdoonvarna, Swallowtail Jig and Harvest Home. I eventually got Kevin Burke’s first video. But I also really hadn’t a clue as how to actually play – a condition some might point out hasn’t changed much – I just listened to tunes I liked and tried to recreate them by ear. But there was nobody that I could sit down with and ask questions or even watch up close. For a while, I tightened my bow until it had a positive arc, good thing it was a cheap fiberglass one. I was also under the impression that you should detune the strings after every playing so as not to stress the instrument. That was a major hassle to retune every time so I stopped doing that and took my chances. For about a year, I played with this stupid wooden dowel rolling around inside, I couldn’t figure out how to remove it.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by fidkid
Re: How Many
'Self-taught' only in that I've never had lessons I've paid for. However I've had a truly amazing amount of help and advice from other players.
Pencross - the Zundap was in the late sixties. I, on the oher hand, have only just reached sixty.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by c.g.
Re: How Many
There you go MrCracken, I had the same plan:
"I did a lot of listening/watching others before I even took out the fiddle."
I'm sure you also haven't stopped now that the fiddle is out.
...and fidkid, I'm glad you finally met your sound peg.
Those things are no fun to monkey with.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How Many
I started piano lessons at 5, then the violin in 4th grade when I found this "guitar thingy" in the closet. I brought it to school and was told, "My dear, that's a violin." I was a classical geek until the year 2000, when I first tried fiddling. Granted, it was during my masters degree in music, so it was still a geek thing.
Since then, I have quit the symphony, quit my job as a music teacher. I still play quartets because the $$ comes in handy. I am going back to school this fall to become a chef. I am trying to get away from organized music, much in the way someone that has been raised in a church, has become disillusioned and leaves organized religion.
Point? I'm seeking the organic nature of my love for the violin, how to enjoy it because I don't have to do it. I want to do it. And depending on the musical environment in my new location this fall, I may even dip my toe back into the classical realm. Whatever I do with it, it will be a choice, not an expectation. For the fun of it.
I'm going to be 50 this year, and I figured it's about time that I straightened things out in my head... and heart!
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by wyogal
Re: How Many
I was at a session several years ago, and played a tune that only one or two other people played along with. When I finished, a flute player who hadn't played along asked me, "Do you have any classical training?" I said, "Oh, gosh no, I've only taken irish fiddle lessons my whole life." He replied, in front of the entire session, "Yeah, you can tell. You have the worst form of anyone I know." I never went back to that session.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by irishfiddler32
Re: How Many
I had only a year worth of lessons
from a fiddle teacher. That ended
in 1992 or 1993.
# Posted on July 13th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: How Many
"I think I'm the only fiddle player of non-Celtic descent that I know who didn't start on classical violin. Anyone else?"
Yes, me. Unless you count German as Celtic.
# Posted on July 13th 2008 by awildman2384
Re: How Many
I think Randal Bays started on classical guitar, then went straight to Irish fiddle--no classical violin training at all.
Unless I'm wrong about that, he would be another one.
# Posted on July 13th 2008 by tuckered out
Re: How Many
I've had neither classical nor Suzuki training, although I was given instruction in general music theory by several educated friends when I started 35 yrs. ago. This rudimentary knowledge and encouragement, yoked to a hunger for proper technique and sound, eventually produced a damn competent fiddler.
# Posted on July 13th 2008 by hauke
Re: How Many
I really couldn't say which motorbike I started on.
At some point I remember someone had a Honda MiniTrail 50 with the centrifugal clutch.
Still ave my Victor.
It probably isn't advisable to play classic or traditional on a motor bike.
# Posted on July 13th 2008 by Random_notes