A question, do players turn their bow from having all hair touching the strings to very little hair touching the strings or vice versa? I don't mean in every number but like the high notes in Martin Hayes' numbers for example?
No. I've come across this idea of rolling the bow when you get nearer to the frog, but personally I don't think it's a good idea. The bow should travel straight and at the same angle (whatever you decide that should be) throughout the entire length of a bow stroke.
Having said which, sometimes I use more of a tilt than others - when I want a harder edge to the sound, for instance. But I wouldn't do it for individual notes, or even for individual phrases.
I think this rolling of the bow nearer to the frog helps me in keeping constant volume - it tends to increase because of the bigger pressure. Also enables easier string crossing and changing bow direction without scratching.
Benhall, sure you've come across this idea, because scads of good players do it. Not that it has much utility in dance tunes, because we don't use enough bow for it to offer much benefit: however in slow pieces it's another colour on the palette.
It's an odd statement though, "should" travel at the same angle, without any reasoning behind why the loads of players who do play that way are wrong.
I tend to roll it when I go to the E string, because the E string needs a lighter touch. I could do the same thing by just lifting the pressure on the bow a bit. There are many ways to get the same result.
Don't worry about these kinds of details. Everyone does things differently. Just use your bow to get the sound that your ears want; the rest will sort itself out.
Copying small details of the way someone else uses the bow isn't likely to be very helpful, it's better to just play and listen. Your body will learn the movements you need without you thinking about it.
OK, reenactor, here's my reasoning. Well, after this bit ... I haven't seen scads of good players doing it. Actually, I've only come across this idea on this site. So, I'd be interested to see anything you can find that says why you *should* do it. (I'm not being sarcastic here - I would be genuinely interested .)
When I was studying violin, the succession of teachers I had, all taught me to keep the bow angle the same thoughout the bow stroke, by regulating the degree of flex in the wrist and by a small lift (but not deliberate - only by following the natural lift of the arm) in the shoulder when the bow is right at the frog. I don't remember whether any of them ever told me *why* I had to keep the angle the same throughout, but here's my own reasoning for it:
You should be able, at will, to play with the same tone in any part of the bow. If you change the angle so that there is less width of hair (not necessarily less hair) in contact with the string, the tone will automatically change. Therefore, you keep the bow parallel to the bridge and also at the same angle, whether that is, for any given choice of tone, flat, or tilted.
What's the reasoning behind doing it another way? (I am serious - I would like to know.)
deja vu....
As a classical player, I may vary the tilt of the bow, depending on the desired tone I would like to create.
As a fiddle player, I tend to keep the hair flat.
In both styles, I keep my bow perpendicular to the strings, parallel to the bridge, cuz, well, otherwise you get a nasty, wooshy, icky sound, IMO.
I play pretty flat, because I play with a lot of drones and double-stops. Whether you should or you shouldn't, I don't think you *need* to roll the bow by any means; I can get good tone with a fairly even stroke.
I just recently took a couple of (life changing) workshops with Martin Hayes, he said he tries to keep his bow angled toward his bridge at all times, in order to have the best tone possible. It seems to be working!!!
Benhall, I think I was crankier than I intended. It's been a rough couple of days. Thanks for the lovely comment. My apologies for phrasing.
At any rate, I do see good players making choices there, but on the whole I don't see that it's a big difference unless you're playing something with some sustain. Where you are located, varying bow tilt might not be a choice players pick often. It's all good
Reasoning? Well, I have to disagree with one point you made. While it may be theoretically lovely to be able to make the same sound everywhere in the bow, it's way easier to get certain sounds in the part of the bow where weight and leverage favor them. Most Irish fiddlers are going to use the upper part of the their bow for reels not because of any blind habit, but because they're damned awkward at the frog due to balancing and weight control issues. Possible? Probably, but certainly more work than otherwise. The frog is great for styles of music where you have to generate volume at the expense of agility, or sustain very long bows. I'm finding that I rarely play there for traditional Irish music, unless I need that sustain for an air or a stupidly long string of slurred notes (or, if I want to do a bowed triplety thing, but on two strings - not too common).
The benefit you get from varying bow tilt can come from two paths. First, when pulling long bows, some players like to keep their arms relaxed into the string at all times. Tone on a fiddle = weight+speed+amount of bow hair(+a small amount of how close you are to the bridge). If you get into the part of your bow where weight works *for* you, i.e. the right hand side of the balance point, and you want to keep the volume the same, you can either slow the bow or tilt the bow to just be on part of the hair. Some players find it's harder to make a smooth bow change if you slow down while going into it, and those players tend to tilt the bow out to compensate.
Now, there are players who would just prefer to remove the weight. That's fine, but in my experience it tires my arm out more to do it that way.
The second reason would involve the different tone colours you can get. Tilting a bow way out helps get a wispy tone colour. If you're all badass like Martin Hayes, you can even do that while using a lot of bow while the bow is resting on a harmonic node, and pop the sounds up an octave when you play them (ref. Hayes, Cahill, "Live in Seattle", Port na Bpucai). Otherwise, you're just going to end up broadening a tonal palette. Some players care about that, and some very fine players don't! It's all taste.
Third, now that I'm thinking about it - thanks for that! - you may find that changing the bow tilt will make certain passages easier in different parts of the bow than otherwise. Again, something you could probably also fix other ways (by, like, picking a bowing that works) but it *can* be useful. To some players. Perhaps Shylock, which is why I simply said "yes" the first time
Rolling the bow horizontally?
Rolling the bow horizontally?
fellow laddies and lassies,
A question, do players turn their bow from having all hair touching the strings to very little hair touching the strings or vice versa? I don't mean in every number but like the high notes in Martin Hayes' numbers for example?
Your enlightenment please
Regards
Shylock
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
Only when playing close to the frog - which hardly happens when playing tunes, but occasionally I might get there doing a song accompanyment.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
yes
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
No. I've come across this idea of rolling the bow when you get nearer to the frog, but personally I don't think it's a good idea. The bow should travel straight and at the same angle (whatever you decide that should be) throughout the entire length of a bow stroke.
Having said which, sometimes I use more of a tilt than others - when I want a harder edge to the sound, for instance. But I wouldn't do it for individual notes, or even for individual phrases.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
I think this rolling of the bow nearer to the frog helps me in keeping constant volume - it tends to increase because of the bigger pressure. Also enables easier string crossing and changing bow direction without scratching.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
Benhall, sure you've come across this idea, because scads of good players do it. Not that it has much utility in dance tunes, because we don't use enough bow for it to offer much benefit: however in slow pieces it's another colour on the palette.
It's an odd statement though, "should" travel at the same angle, without any reasoning behind why the loads of players who do play that way are wrong.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18105/
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
I tend to roll it when I go to the E string, because the E string needs a lighter touch. I could do the same thing by just lifting the pressure on the bow a bit. There are many ways to get the same result.
Don't worry about these kinds of details. Everyone does things differently. Just use your bow to get the sound that your ears want; the rest will sort itself out.
Copying small details of the way someone else uses the bow isn't likely to be very helpful, it's better to just play and listen. Your body will learn the movements you need without you thinking about it.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
OK, reenactor, here's my reasoning. Well, after this bit ... I haven't seen scads of good players doing it. Actually, I've only come across this idea on this site. So, I'd be interested to see anything you can find that says why you *should* do it. (I'm not being sarcastic here - I would be genuinely interested .)
When I was studying violin, the succession of teachers I had, all taught me to keep the bow angle the same thoughout the bow stroke, by regulating the degree of flex in the wrist and by a small lift (but not deliberate - only by following the natural lift of the arm) in the shoulder when the bow is right at the frog. I don't remember whether any of them ever told me *why* I had to keep the angle the same throughout, but here's my own reasoning for it:
You should be able, at will, to play with the same tone in any part of the bow. If you change the angle so that there is less width of hair (not necessarily less hair) in contact with the string, the tone will automatically change. Therefore, you keep the bow parallel to the bridge and also at the same angle, whether that is, for any given choice of tone, flat, or tilted.
What's the reasoning behind doing it another way? (I am serious - I would like to know.)
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
deja vu....
As a classical player, I may vary the tilt of the bow, depending on the desired tone I would like to create.
As a fiddle player, I tend to keep the hair flat.
In both styles, I keep my bow perpendicular to the strings, parallel to the bridge, cuz, well, otherwise you get a nasty, wooshy, icky sound, IMO.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
Just listened to your stuff, reenactor. Great stuff!
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
I play pretty flat, because I play with a lot of drones and double-stops. Whether you should or you shouldn't, I don't think you *need* to roll the bow by any means; I can get good tone with a fairly even stroke.
--DtM
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
I just recently took a couple of (life changing) workshops with Martin Hayes, he said he tries to keep his bow angled toward his bridge at all times, in order to have the best tone possible. It seems to be working!!!
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by reaghan
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
Sorry, reaghan, but don't you mean angled *away* from the bridge? That is, with the stick leaning toward the scroll?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTc5ZroJh4s seems to show him leaning it that way, at 3:15 to 3:36 (so you can skip the drivel about his hair, etc.).
Not that anybody *has to* do it that way. Don't want to open up that can of worms again....
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by mickray
Re: Rolling the bow horizontally?
Benhall, I think I was crankier than I intended. It's been a rough couple of days. Thanks for the lovely comment. My apologies for phrasing.
At any rate, I do see good players making choices there, but on the whole I don't see that it's a big difference unless you're playing something with some sustain. Where you are located, varying bow tilt might not be a choice players pick often. It's all good
Reasoning? Well, I have to disagree with one point you made. While it may be theoretically lovely to be able to make the same sound everywhere in the bow, it's way easier to get certain sounds in the part of the bow where weight and leverage favor them. Most Irish fiddlers are going to use the upper part of the their bow for reels not because of any blind habit, but because they're damned awkward at the frog due to balancing and weight control issues. Possible? Probably, but certainly more work than otherwise. The frog is great for styles of music where you have to generate volume at the expense of agility, or sustain very long bows. I'm finding that I rarely play there for traditional Irish music, unless I need that sustain for an air or a stupidly long string of slurred notes (or, if I want to do a bowed triplety thing, but on two strings - not too common).
The benefit you get from varying bow tilt can come from two paths. First, when pulling long bows, some players like to keep their arms relaxed into the string at all times. Tone on a fiddle = weight+speed+amount of bow hair(+a small amount of how close you are to the bridge). If you get into the part of your bow where weight works *for* you, i.e. the right hand side of the balance point, and you want to keep the volume the same, you can either slow the bow or tilt the bow to just be on part of the hair. Some players find it's harder to make a smooth bow change if you slow down while going into it, and those players tend to tilt the bow out to compensate.
Now, there are players who would just prefer to remove the weight. That's fine, but in my experience it tires my arm out more to do it that way.
The second reason would involve the different tone colours you can get. Tilting a bow way out helps get a wispy tone colour. If you're all badass like Martin Hayes, you can even do that while using a lot of bow while the bow is resting on a harmonic node, and pop the sounds up an octave when you play them (ref. Hayes, Cahill, "Live in Seattle", Port na Bpucai). Otherwise, you're just going to end up broadening a tonal palette. Some players care about that, and some very fine players don't! It's all taste.
Third, now that I'm thinking about it - thanks for that! - you may find that changing the bow tilt will make certain passages easier in different parts of the bow than otherwise. Again, something you could probably also fix other ways (by, like, picking a bowing that works) but it *can* be useful. To some players. Perhaps Shylock, which is why I simply said "yes" the first time
Cheers and goodwill - T.J.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by reenactor