I'm sure there's a program that can figure it out if you punch the tune's notes into it. Otherwise it just takes a fairly basic understanding of scales to figure out the key of a tune. Look up major, minor, dorian and mixolydian scales.
work out the note that the A part resolves to - - for example it could be an E. Then work out whih notes are sharpened or flattened - - eg f# and c# - so that sort of tune would be Edorian. eg Cooley's reel.
What do you want it for, celtpipes? If you want it in order to write some tunes down, just write down the notes that are in the tune, and see how many are sharpened or flattened. For instance, if just the Fs are sharpened, that would be one sharp. If the Fs and Cs are sharpened, that would be two sharps. This method will work for most tunes.
If you want to post a tune here, however, you have to know something about modes in order to use the choices provided by the site. BC has described it simply above, and if you want to find out more, try Wiki, though the article is not for the faint-hearted:
Looking at your profile I see you play GHBs not Uilleann Pipes which means that you will only play in a handful of keys D major, A Mixolydian, B minor, or less commonly E dorian but that is seldom used in Pipe music. A tune will usually end on the tonic (that is the same note as what key its in) but not always. Playing GHBs and SSPs you really don't need to know what key the tune is in as all the tunes you play will have the same notes in them (F# and C# everything else is natural.) And therefore most of the previous comments will be useless to you, not that there are wrong but in the music you play you will not encounter these things. Also remember that the GHBs although the drones and second note on the Chanter are called A they are actually pitched between Bb and B natural.
Learn the circle of fifths -it is fairly straight forward and will allow you to figure out any major scale (or minor) figure out any chord once you learn their 'recipes' and of course let you figure out the key by determining the number of flats or sharps. The good thing is that this little knowledge of theory will give you skills that are transferable from instrument to instrument. Loads of free sites on the internet about this.
Unfortunately, as I mostly play melody instruments I don't always remember the key or even think about it much of the time until "a guitarist" shouts out "What's the key?"
Of course, for most of the very well known tunes I already know but it's quite hard to work it out sometimes in "mid tune". It's not something I need to know.
However, before I start a set, I'll sometimes hum the tune in my head and quickly strum/pluck a couple of chords on the mandolin/fiddle just to check first before advising the assembled company.
Of course, you can also tell fairly easily if you've got a good knowledge of scales but I suppose it depends on what comes easiest. Having started off on guitar, I find it fairly easy to work out the basic chords.
Of course, as you know, this is a modal music and it's not really enough to just know the key if you are a backer. Well, not if you want to back it correctly first time that is.
You also have all these Dinky Dorian and Myxomatosis keys too.
You really need to know the tune as well, as has often been discussed.
Totally agree with Unseen 122. I nearly said something similar, but realised I didn't know enough about pipes to say anything for sure.
But this is why it would be helpful to know what you want to know the answer for. Are you going to use it for your pipe band? Or for other instruments? (eg whistle)
The phrase "Key Signature" comes from classical music and while a lot of tunes definitely are in a particular key and mode, a lot of tunes are more ambiguous. Saying a particular tune is in a certain key can constrict you view of it.
I prefer to use the term "tonal centre". Most tunes have tonal centres though often the centre can shift. Using the formal language of music, you'd say they "modulate", but I don't really think this is accurate - or rather, - I think it's too accurate. Diddley tunes are fuzzy kind of wooly things. Their great strength lies it their ambiguity and often, pinning key signatures on them can ruin this.
It's quite a funny thread, read back now. Not only are there so many different opinions, but half the time it looks as though nobody is actually picking up on what everyone else is saying in any case. A complete fog.
Yes - 'tonal centre' is a good way to put it. Generally if a tune
follows the straight and narrow "key" path, it's dead boring or at
any rate doesn't sound very Irish.
If you are wanting to play chords, the key signature gives you a clue as to which chords to play, but it is only a clue, an accompanist doesn't necessarily need to know the key-signature, and the key-sig may change at certain points in the tune.
If you are wanting to write the tune down, you pick the key signature for easiest reading i.e. minimum of sharps and flats.
BUT, you can still write a Gmaj tune with a Cmaj key signature, as long as you include the relevant F#s.
but if you start your staves off with no marked sharps or flats, you are implying that the tonal centre of the following dots is C. It's one of the problems with reading and writing music. The tonal; centre is indicated before the music even starts
I think this story relates:
On Sunday, we had a substitute pianist. During the portion of the service when we "share the peace' i went over to her to say "hi" as I know her from teaching in schools, wanted to say welcome. She was a bit panicked, as the next piece of liturgy (the offertory) had no accompaniment. All she had was the melody, no chords. It wasn't very easy to tell what key the piece was in from the key signature - major, minor, or some other mode? So I quickly and quietly sang the tune for her.
Time came for her to play it and she made up a beautiful accompaniment.
Not from what she deduced from what was written on the page, but according to the tune that she heard me sing.
But, wyogal, couldn't she have quickly and quietly sung (or heard in her head) the melody for herself from the printed source and made up the same beautiful accompaniment without you? After all, you said she already had the melody. Sounds like her sight-reading skill goes directly from the page to her fingers without passing through her mind's ear.
And, Michael, the absence of marked sharps or flats doesn't imply a tonal centre of C unless the reader doesn't know about or forgets about the possibility of other modes (including minor). It is definitely a weakness of the notation, but it's one that anyone who wants to use notation would be aware of and not be fooled by if they gave it a moment's thought. Of course sometimes determining the tonal centre isn't easy or possible, but they would be aware that the sharps and flats don't provide enough information on their own.
yes, I can agree with that. And I suppose that a key signiture of no sharps or flats would, with diddley music, usually indicate that the tonal centre was D.
I hadn't really thought about this, but am I right in asuming (my technical knowledge of music is not great) that the key signiture is then merely an instruction of which notes are in the tune - bar accidentals - and not an indication of tonal centre at all?
I'm sure she could have, but she was a bit panicked, in front of a congregation, unfamiliar with liturgy (as she comes from a different faith background), and was really put on the spot by not having all of the accompaniments provided. Listening to it was a quick and efficient way of doing things in this situation.
Michael, I think the sharps and flats *are* an indication of tonal centre. But they're an ambiguous one, depending on whether the tune is 'major', 'minor' or some other mode.
No sharps of flats in diddley could, I suppose, at least suggest that the tonal centre is D, if the tune was in Dorian.
Exactly, Michael. Before taking up diddley music, if I saw no sharps or flats, I'd think C major or A minor. Now I think D dorian, G mixolydian, C major, or A minor (in approximate order of descending likelihood).
No, Ben. They just restrict the tonal centre to one of the seven notes in the diatonic scale they define. Any further information comes from the relative frequency of tunes in each mode in that key signature in the particular genre of music being considered or from the tune itself.
If you see no sharps or flats, the tonal centre could be C, D, E, F, G, A, or B. If, in addition, you know it's Irish trad, D dorian becomes the best bet. If, instead, you know it's Bach, C major and A minor are your top choices. Other cultures, I don't know. All the information comes from context and genre, and is probabalistic.
celtpipes, if it is the keys of tunes on the smallpipes you are looking for then it's relatively simple. You always have two sharps. So you can have A major if you play no G's (i.e Mrs MacLeod of Raasay) , A dorian (basically A minor on the pipes) if you play no C's (Price of a Pig), B minor (Ale is Dear) and E dorian (little cascade).
More often than not the key on the pipes is either the note the tune resolves on or feels like it should resolve on. A simplified explanation but hopefully of use to you if it's specifically your smallpipes your concerned with. If your GHB are used for other than a pipe band then they should be tuned to Bb, so simplified you have Bb, Bb minor, C minor and E minor. Other keys are possible on GHB but that's a longer story.
I just tested a theory I had for Irish tunes. Look at the sharps and flats and consider the major key they define. For example, two sharps is D major. Look at the major triad in that key. In D major, that's D, F#, and A. If the first note of the first full measure of the tune is in that triad, the tune is very likely to be major (in this case D). If not, it's most likely to be dorian (in this case E). If the sharps and flats define G major, the triad is G, B, and D. If the first note is in this triad, most likely G major; if not, most likely A dorian.
I looked at the 219 tunes in the first two Comhaltas Fionn session books. This gave me the right answer more than 80% of the time. Many of the exceptions were mixolydian tunes. It seemed to fail more often (percentage-wise) on polkas and hornpipes than on other tunes.
It's less accurate than looking at the whole tune and trying to determine the tonal centre, but it's much faster.
Here are the tunes that gave this method trouble:
Polkas
Peggy Ryan's Fancy
Maid of Ardagh
Britches Full of Stitches
Ballydesmond #3
Reels
Boyne Hunt
Glass of Beer
Bank of Ireland
Maud Millar
Banshee
Jenny Picking Cockles
Jenny's Wedding
Jenny's Chickens
Cup of Tea
Callaghan's
Sligo Maid
College Groves
Green Fields of America
Martin Wynne's No. 2
My Love Is In America
Jigs
Humours of Glendart
Geese in the Bog
Connaughtman's Rambles
Pay the Reckoning
Langstrom's Pony
Blarney Pilgrim
Garrett Barry's
Michael Hynes'
Maid in the Meadow
Pipe on the Hob (Dmix)
Tell Her I Am
Gillian's Apples
Hornpipes
Boys of Bluehill
Sonny Murray's
Rights of Man
Little Stack of Barley
I'd like to add something about the analysis of the key signatures.
I guess the first step in any musical analysis is to remember what the first four letters of "analysis" are, and then proceed to the matter at hand...
you have to look at two things, the accidentals that appear in the melody and the cadence patterns of the phrases.
your phrases will always set up some note as being the resolution of any tensions created in the phrase. This note will be a relatively stable note of that mode.
That means the resolution of the phrase does not need to be the root, but it will need be on a stable note in that mode in order to resolve the tensions created within the phrase.
In fact, a practical example of this process of phrase anaylisis can be found in Gary Martin's post above.
So while experienced players can just listen or read the dots and know what key center they are playing in, this process of analysis is actually internalized by their experience to the point that they actually do all this without thinking of it. They just "know"
But the way we come to the knowledge is from examining the accidentals and the phrase structures.
This isn't universal, in the 20th century composers tried to create some sense of structure in the complete absence of key centers, but you can apply this to most any tune normal people care to listen too
Not read through all the answers (it's been a long day!) but basically, the last note of most tunes ends on the "tonic" - ie, if the last note's in D, then the tune is usually in some form of D (major / minor / some mode or other). Dunno if that helps!
Ah. You confused me for a moment, Gary, with your "No, Ben". Basically, 'cos what you then wrote seemed to be exactly what I was trying to say. I think it's just that you put it better than I did.
Find the dots (so sue me).
Major: See how many sharps/flats it has. Find the number in front of the word. The key signature is the beginning letter of the word.
Minor: if it sounds minor (or has a sharpened seventh) do the above but count down three semitones.
To work out which flats or sharps they are: One sharp is F# cuz it's the first word. 2 sharps and they are F# and C# cuz they're the first two words. Etc.
Modes, just go and ask someone else.
Cryptic, yes, but it got me through my theory grades.
You can start by observing the final note in the tune to see what it resolves to. For example D. Then play it using no sharps and flats and it's D minor. Then play it with an F# and C# and it's D major. Then as you add or subtract #s, you get into the modals: dorian, mixolydian, etc.
Sometimes finding the final note can be tricky, as there's often a turnaround that takes you back to the beginning.
Then there's tunes that change key (eg. Lilting Fisherman). And tunes that feel like they are in G major but end on D (Battering Ram, Gillian's Apples). Are they in G major or D mixolydian? I've heard the latter played so as to end with a repeat of the first measure and the first note of the second measure, resolving to the G. So sometimes the last note isn't at the end of the tune, but in the second measure!
Ask a GOOD guitarist; or 'zouk player.
But, yes, you have to throw away a lot of "classical" or standard music theory, because the standard key signature only tells you when to play a sharp or a flat, but not indicate the relevant harmonies or chords.
I don't know who was responsible for formulating the system for posting a tune here, but don't you actually need to know the correct key and mode or it gets thrown out ? I plead ignorance on this as I've never learnt how to use ABC properly, being content with reading from stave if I need to learn a tune without the ears. Why learn something new at my advanced years ?
"but you can apply this to almost any tune normal people care to listen too".
How do you define "normal" Nate Ryan?
If you can't figure out the key any other way, you can always keep trying every key on your key ring until one of them turns in the lock and opens the door.
How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I know this may sound elemental, but how do you determine a tune's Key Signature? Thanks
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by celtpipes
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I'm sure there's a program that can figure it out if you punch the tune's notes into it. Otherwise it just takes a fairly basic understanding of scales to figure out the key of a tune. Look up major, minor, dorian and mixolydian scales.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
work out the note that the A part resolves to - - for example it could be an E. Then work out whih notes are sharpened or flattened - - eg f# and c# - so that sort of tune would be Edorian. eg Cooley's reel.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
What do you want it for, celtpipes? If you want it in order to write some tunes down, just write down the notes that are in the tune, and see how many are sharpened or flattened. For instance, if just the Fs are sharpened, that would be one sharp. If the Fs and Cs are sharpened, that would be two sharps. This method will work for most tunes.
If you want to post a tune here, however, you have to know something about modes in order to use the choices provided by the site. BC has described it simply above, and if you want to find out more, try Wiki, though the article is not for the faint-hearted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_modes
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Ask a guitarist.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by SineadE
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Looking at your profile I see you play GHBs not Uilleann Pipes which means that you will only play in a handful of keys D major, A Mixolydian, B minor, or less commonly E dorian but that is seldom used in Pipe music. A tune will usually end on the tonic (that is the same note as what key its in) but not always. Playing GHBs and SSPs you really don't need to know what key the tune is in as all the tunes you play will have the same notes in them (F# and C# everything else is natural.) And therefore most of the previous comments will be useless to you, not that there are wrong but in the music you play you will not encounter these things. Also remember that the GHBs although the drones and second note on the Chanter are called A they are actually pitched between Bb and B natural.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Unseen122
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
hand writting analysist
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Ray Mariani
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Learn the circle of fifths -it is fairly straight forward and will allow you to figure out any major scale (or minor) figure out any chord once you learn their 'recipes' and of course let you figure out the key by determining the number of flats or sharps. The good thing is that this little knowledge of theory will give you skills that are transferable from instrument to instrument. Loads of free sites on the internet about this.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Mac Donn
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
"Ask a guitarist"
Unfortunately, as I mostly play melody instruments I don't always remember the key or even think about it much of the time until "a guitarist" shouts out "What's the key?"
Of course, for most of the very well known tunes I already know but it's quite hard to work it out sometimes in "mid tune". It's not something I need to know.
However, before I start a set, I'll sometimes hum the tune in my head and quickly strum/pluck a couple of chords on the mandolin/fiddle just to check first before advising the assembled company.
Of course, you can also tell fairly easily if you've got a good knowledge of scales but I suppose it depends on what comes easiest. Having started off on guitar, I find it fairly easy to work out the basic chords.
Of course, as you know, this is a modal music and it's not really enough to just know the key if you are a backer. Well, not if you want to back it correctly first time that is.
You also have all these Dinky Dorian and Myxomatosis keys too.
You really need to know the tune as well, as has often been discussed.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Totally agree with Unseen 122. I nearly said something similar, but realised I didn't know enough about pipes to say anything for sure.
But this is why it would be helpful to know what you want to know the answer for. Are you going to use it for your pipe band? Or for other instruments? (eg whistle)
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
The phrase "Key Signature" comes from classical music and while a lot of tunes definitely are in a particular key and mode, a lot of tunes are more ambiguous. Saying a particular tune is in a certain key can constrict you view of it.
I prefer to use the term "tonal centre". Most tunes have tonal centres though often the centre can shift. Using the formal language of music, you'd say they "modulate", but I don't really think this is accurate - or rather, - I think it's too accurate. Diddley tunes are fuzzy kind of wooly things. Their great strength lies it their ambiguity and often, pinning key signatures on them can ruin this.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Read this thread to see what Michael means:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14277/
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
ha ha, I've just read that thread and it really does illustrate what I said above splendidly.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
It's quite a funny thread, read back now. Not only are there so many different opinions, but half the time it looks as though nobody is actually picking up on what everyone else is saying in any case. A complete fog.
"fuzzy kind of wooly things" I like that.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
ask the bodhran player
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by mcknowall
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Yes - 'tonal centre' is a good way to put it. Generally if a tune
follows the straight and narrow "key" path, it's dead boring or at
any rate doesn't sound very Irish.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Hup
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
There are two different starting points here.
If you are wanting to play chords, the key signature gives you a clue as to which chords to play, but it is only a clue, an accompanist doesn't necessarily need to know the key-signature, and the key-sig may change at certain points in the tune.
If you are wanting to write the tune down, you pick the key signature for easiest reading i.e. minimum of sharps and flats.
BUT, you can still write a Gmaj tune with a Cmaj key signature, as long as you include the relevant F#s.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
but if you start your staves off with no marked sharps or flats, you are implying that the tonal centre of the following dots is C. It's one of the problems with reading and writing music. The tonal; centre is indicated before the music even starts
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I think this story relates:
On Sunday, we had a substitute pianist. During the portion of the service when we "share the peace' i went over to her to say "hi" as I know her from teaching in schools, wanted to say welcome. She was a bit panicked, as the next piece of liturgy (the offertory) had no accompaniment. All she had was the melody, no chords. It wasn't very easy to tell what key the piece was in from the key signature - major, minor, or some other mode? So I quickly and quietly sang the tune for her.
Time came for her to play it and she made up a beautiful accompaniment.
Not from what she deduced from what was written on the page, but according to the tune that she heard me sing.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
yep, that's music for you.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
thought you'd like that...
; )
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
But, wyogal, couldn't she have quickly and quietly sung (or heard in her head) the melody for herself from the printed source and made up the same beautiful accompaniment without you? After all, you said she already had the melody. Sounds like her sight-reading skill goes directly from the page to her fingers without passing through her mind's ear.
And, Michael, the absence of marked sharps or flats doesn't imply a tonal centre of C unless the reader doesn't know about or forgets about the possibility of other modes (including minor). It is definitely a weakness of the notation, but it's one that anyone who wants to use notation would be aware of and not be fooled by if they gave it a moment's thought. Of course sometimes determining the tonal centre isn't easy or possible, but they would be aware that the sharps and flats don't provide enough information on their own.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
yes, I can agree with that. And I suppose that a key signiture of no sharps or flats would, with diddley music, usually indicate that the tonal centre was D.
I hadn't really thought about this, but am I right in asuming (my technical knowledge of music is not great) that the key signiture is then merely an instruction of which notes are in the tune - bar accidentals - and not an indication of tonal centre at all?
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I'm sure she could have, but she was a bit panicked, in front of a congregation, unfamiliar with liturgy (as she comes from a different faith background), and was really put on the spot by not having all of the accompaniments provided. Listening to it was a quick and efficient way of doing things in this situation.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Michael, I think the sharps and flats *are* an indication of tonal centre. But they're an ambiguous one, depending on whether the tune is 'major', 'minor' or some other mode.
No sharps of flats in diddley could, I suppose, at least suggest that the tonal centre is D, if the tune was in Dorian.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Exactly, Michael. Before taking up diddley music, if I saw no sharps or flats, I'd think C major or A minor. Now I think D dorian, G mixolydian, C major, or A minor (in approximate order of descending likelihood).
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
No, Ben. They just restrict the tonal centre to one of the seven notes in the diatonic scale they define. Any further information comes from the relative frequency of tunes in each mode in that key signature in the particular genre of music being considered or from the tune itself.
If you see no sharps or flats, the tonal centre could be C, D, E, F, G, A, or B. If, in addition, you know it's Irish trad, D dorian becomes the best bet. If, instead, you know it's Bach, C major and A minor are your top choices. Other cultures, I don't know. All the information comes from context and genre, and is probabalistic.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
celtpipes, if it is the keys of tunes on the smallpipes you are looking for then it's relatively simple. You always have two sharps. So you can have A major if you play no G's (i.e Mrs MacLeod of Raasay) , A dorian (basically A minor on the pipes) if you play no C's (Price of a Pig), B minor (Ale is Dear) and E dorian (little cascade).
More often than not the key on the pipes is either the note the tune resolves on or feels like it should resolve on. A simplified explanation but hopefully of use to you if it's specifically your smallpipes your concerned with. If your GHB are used for other than a pipe band then they should be tuned to Bb, so simplified you have Bb, Bb minor, C minor and E minor. Other keys are possible on GHB but that's a longer story.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Bogman
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I just tested a theory I had for Irish tunes. Look at the sharps and flats and consider the major key they define. For example, two sharps is D major. Look at the major triad in that key. In D major, that's D, F#, and A. If the first note of the first full measure of the tune is in that triad, the tune is very likely to be major (in this case D). If not, it's most likely to be dorian (in this case E). If the sharps and flats define G major, the triad is G, B, and D. If the first note is in this triad, most likely G major; if not, most likely A dorian.
I looked at the 219 tunes in the first two Comhaltas Fionn session books. This gave me the right answer more than 80% of the time. Many of the exceptions were mixolydian tunes. It seemed to fail more often (percentage-wise) on polkas and hornpipes than on other tunes.
It's less accurate than looking at the whole tune and trying to determine the tonal centre, but it's much faster.
Here are the tunes that gave this method trouble:
Polkas
Peggy Ryan's Fancy
Maid of Ardagh
Britches Full of Stitches
Ballydesmond #3
Reels
Boyne Hunt
Glass of Beer
Bank of Ireland
Maud Millar
Banshee
Jenny Picking Cockles
Jenny's Wedding
Jenny's Chickens
Cup of Tea
Callaghan's
Sligo Maid
College Groves
Green Fields of America
Martin Wynne's No. 2
My Love Is In America
Jigs
Humours of Glendart
Geese in the Bog
Connaughtman's Rambles
Pay the Reckoning
Langstrom's Pony
Blarney Pilgrim
Garrett Barry's
Michael Hynes'
Maid in the Meadow
Pipe on the Hob (Dmix)
Tell Her I Am
Gillian's Apples
Hornpipes
Boys of Bluehill
Sonny Murray's
Rights of Man
Little Stack of Barley
Slow Airs
Tabhair Dom Do Lámh
Marches
Brian Boru's
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I'd like to add something about the analysis of the key signatures.
I guess the first step in any musical analysis is to remember what the first four letters of "analysis" are, and then proceed to the matter at hand...
you have to look at two things, the accidentals that appear in the melody and the cadence patterns of the phrases.
your phrases will always set up some note as being the resolution of any tensions created in the phrase. This note will be a relatively stable note of that mode.
That means the resolution of the phrase does not need to be the root, but it will need be on a stable note in that mode in order to resolve the tensions created within the phrase.
In fact, a practical example of this process of phrase anaylisis can be found in Gary Martin's post above.
So while experienced players can just listen or read the dots and know what key center they are playing in, this process of analysis is actually internalized by their experience to the point that they actually do all this without thinking of it. They just "know"
But the way we come to the knowledge is from examining the accidentals and the phrase structures.
This isn't universal, in the 20th century composers tried to create some sense of structure in the complete absence of key centers, but you can apply this to most any tune normal people care to listen too
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Not read through all the answers (it's been a long day!) but basically, the last note of most tunes ends on the "tonic" - ie, if the last note's in D, then the tune is usually in some form of D (major / minor / some mode or other). Dunno if that helps!
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Ah. You confused me for a moment, Gary, with your "No, Ben". Basically, 'cos what you then wrote seemed to be exactly what I was trying to say. I think it's just that you put it better than I did.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Find the dots (so sue me).
Major: See how many sharps/flats it has. Find the number in front of the word. The key signature is the beginning letter of the word.
Minor: if it sounds minor (or has a sharpened seventh) do the above but count down three semitones.
Sharps: 6Father(#) 7Charles(#) 1Goes 2Down 3And 4Ends 5Battle.
Flats: 2Battle(b) 3Ends(b) 4And(b) 5Down(b) 6Goes(b) 7Charles'(b) 1Father
To work out which flats or sharps they are: One sharp is F# cuz it's the first word. 2 sharps and they are F# and C# cuz they're the first two words. Etc.
Modes, just go and ask someone else.
Cryptic, yes, but it got me through my theory grades.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
"Modes, just go and ask someone else."
???
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
This time, mehit, I have no clue what you're on about ...
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
I'm sorry mehit, but getting through my theory grades, for this music, was worthless
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
You can start by observing the final note in the tune to see what it resolves to. For example D. Then play it using no sharps and flats and it's D minor. Then play it with an F# and C# and it's D major. Then as you add or subtract #s, you get into the modals: dorian, mixolydian, etc.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by banjobabe
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Sometimes finding the final note can be tricky, as there's often a turnaround that takes you back to the beginning.
Then there's tunes that change key (eg. Lilting Fisherman). And tunes that feel like they are in G major but end on D (Battering Ram, Gillian's Apples). Are they in G major or D mixolydian? I've heard the latter played so as to end with a repeat of the first measure and the first note of the second measure, resolving to the G. So sometimes the last note isn't at the end of the tune, but in the second measure!
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Ask a GOOD guitarist; or 'zouk player.
But, yes, you have to throw away a lot of "classical" or standard music theory, because the standard key signature only tells you when to play a sharp or a flat, but not indicate the relevant harmonies or chords.
I don't know who was responsible for formulating the system for posting a tune here, but don't you actually need to know the correct key and mode or it gets thrown out ? I plead ignorance on this as I've never learnt how to use ABC properly, being content with reading from stave if I need to learn a tune without the ears. Why learn something new at my advanced years ?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Hahaha don't worry guys, I understand modes I just don't possess the capability to explain them to someone else
And my theory grades haven't been greatly useful for this music either but this isn't the only kind of music I do.
If anyone can actually understand what my previous post is about, you deserve a medal!!!!
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
Rats! I would have liked a medal, too.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you know a tune's Key Signature?
"but you can apply this to almost any tune normal people care to listen too".
How do you define "normal" Nate Ryan?
If you can't figure out the key any other way, you can always keep trying every key on your key ring until one of them turns in the lock and opens the door.
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by fauxcelt