No, really, are we? Are you happy? Find a nice comfortable seat and a favourite brew, relax and take a few deep breaths to raise the oxygen content in the blood heading for your brain. Now, please, be serious, consider this and let fly...
Why ask it? Well, I've met some real misery guts associated with this thing some of us value, if by different measurments, this 'tradition', Irish or otherwise. I remember one kid that was a talent and a wreck. They were brilliant as a techie and had all the twiddles in their box of tricks anyone could want, executed crisply and with great accuracy. But, they weren't happy. Come on, you must have met the likes, folks that tend to do a hell of a lot of moaning, to always have a critical comment about anyone else's playing. There's those that are more interested in being on show and winning medals than just kickin' back and having a tune just for the hell of it, interspersed with chat and in the company of friends. Some just can't seem to manage any state anywhere near to relaxation. And there's those that think everything is a time to shine, to show their stuff, to outdo the competition, even when there isn't any. They might be good, even great, as far as things technically, and some of these miserable gits can be so able that it would be hard for them to stumble into a setting where there was someone that could better them, and yet they are stuck in the need to prove something. Yeah, there are those that do get some almost sadistic pleasure out of besting another, out of putting someone down, musically or with words, but are they really happy?
Another sad case was also a point of talent, but pushed to injury. They pushed so hard they ended up with serious RSI to the point of having to give up the music. And amongst the lost, I remember one sweet and kind person who ended up an alcoholic with the shakes to the point that it got in the way of their talent for music, spoiled it for them and those around them. No is the answer in their case, I know from chats we had that they weren't happy. Then there was the spouse of a well respected musician that when that musician died, too young, tobacco related decay, the spouse took everything the other owned, loads of sheets of music of tunes he'd collected from others, reels of tapes of recordings of others collected over many, many years, and their beloved musical instruments ~ made a pile of it and poured petrol over it and set it alight... It seems the musician in question had forgot to balance things, responsibilities and concerns, like for their spouse and children, badly taken for granted to the point that when they died the frustrations that had built up over time exploded into hate...
So, have we got the balance right? Do you? What is 'balance'? What is 'happiness'? ~ Where the likes of us are concerned? Some folks are trying so damned hard they seem to have missed the whole heart of what this tradition is about, to have missed it in their accumulation of quantity, to have somehow not quite realized that quality is about more than how well you can execute a roll or how fast you can play a particular tune before it goes la-la? Some are completely unaware there is a 'point of la-la'... So, are we a happy lot? Are you happy? If so, spread the joy. If not, accept commiserations, from me at least...
Waffle on, waffle on, dearly beloved, waffle on...
I *was* happy, until I read your post. Now I'm depressed.
Seriously, the main reason that I play the music is that it makes me happy and lifts my spirits. If it didn't put a smile on my face I probably wouldn't do it. From some of my posts it might seem like I take it oh-so-seriously, but it's really just a way to have some fun.
Besides, I can't really play when I'm upset, anxious, sad, etc. I just can't play like a robot and keep my emotions out of it.
Happiness is a choice. Many folks become addicted to their self-depreciating ways without even knowing it. With some practice, every brain can be trained and re-wired to expect happy outcomes instead of negative. Personally, although "tragic artist" types make for a good story line on the TV, I'd rather hang out with folks like the Princess of Ix, Mehitabel - better craic at those sorts of sessions.
Oh yeah and something cool I learnt. If you're ever sad put a pen in your mouth (lengthways, so it forces your mouth into a smile shape). Apparently if your smile muscles are forced to move your body associates this with happiness and you feel happier.
Am I happy? Sometimes. I'm almost always happy when I'm playing music live--meaning performing. Can't say that just picking up the instrument lifts my spirits. Can't say that I would want it to. There's got to be a little misery that goes along with it or it isn't really real... Don't you think??
..."constant smiling = constant happiness."
People who smile all the time make me suspicious. I have a neighbor who always has a big, cheesy grin on his face... What's he building in there??
Sorry to barge past your question, ceolachan, but I've got one for bodatcha. In your travels around S. Devon, have you ever run into Mike Grevina? Now, ceolachan, back to your survey: We're keeping it together. People much sadder than ourselves have played this music. Really, by rights it belongs to them.
for me, the music is a very good thing. in the past, it might not have always been. my great grandmother was very upset to hear that my uncle was learning to play the flute when he was a child, because of the fact that drinking and playing were inseparable for men back then, and that often, the only pay for a gig was in guiness. my unlce did not succumb to the drink, and neither have i.
i treat the music as a source of enrichment, entertainment, tradition, art, but not as a source of validating myself or deeming others around me inferiorly. i spend a a lot of time thinking about the music, singing it, having it caught in my head, and reading about it, but it does not consume me.
i am very happy, as the music has taught me a lot about relaxing, about confidence, a lot about learning, and life, and about spontaneity and structure.
i got my first job so that i could buy a concertina (3 years later and it's almost finished being built), and through working i learned how to manage my time, stress, life, money, and social life. through music i have made many friends--because of playing for a group of german-learning students at college, i moved onto the foreign language floor, and have made so many long-term friends who i would never have met before, including friends from taiwan, japan, china, bosnia, taiwan, brazil, germany, france, guatemala, and of course america (where i live).
What must sessions on the island of lx have been like? Can you imagine, an entire room full of lxians? An entire Island? Talk about happy breeds. To lose all that beneath the waves, and go on smiling! That's some championship resilience, Miss mehitabel ma'am.
You can't play good traditional music and not be happy - well not until one of these "boy racers" or technical experts join your session and try to change its ethos and direction! I think happiness is all about good music and tunes as opposed to prima donna type performances from over trained/rehearsed individuals who feel they're on a different level to us mere mortals.
"People who smile all the time make me suspicious." ~ gw
It always seemed to me, in days beneath the sea, that the sharks & barracudas were always smiling while groupers always seemed to frown... One makes a tasty meal for the t'other, I'll leave it to reason for you to guess who's who...
NIce one screech, on both counts... The poor programmers...
A co-worker of me explained to me after his vacation that he needed it to get his head cleared, and it was just after his statement that I realised that that's precisely what I get from playing music. Down at the session or at home on my own, my concentration on what's going on in that moment, on the music I'm playing sweeps my head of any unnecessary thoughts. That is a great feeling.
I am happy when I'm playing, I play for that reason.
Firstly, I know for a fact that Mehitabel23 is not ALWAYS happy.
Secondly, I would much prefer a person who is happy when there is a reason to be happy, unhappy when there is a reason to be, who is, in other words, a well-balanced individual. this is me on a good day this is me on a bad day this is me on a confusing day
etc..
I actually read a report recently that people who do jobs where they have to constantly smile often become severely depressed because of it. I'll see if I can find it.....
Yes, a lot of the lxian stuff might be doubtful, but it sure goes down a lot better than announcing one's self as a refugee from Easter Island, which she could have done. Think of the sessions on Easter Island! Wolfbird, think of the cannibalism.
Isn't that you, top right corner, ceolachan ? I thought the hat and expression was familiar...took me a moment to figure out where I'd seen you before...
The Islanders of San Jose borrowed the expression from other Islanders to the west of us who, when asked by their missionary guests, 'What is this on my plate?" were far too polite to answer: "Oh, only some missionaries who visited us this morning" Best just to call it long pig, and smile hospitably. As we see many missionaries here, lots of us keep baseball bats beside my door. Things would have been so very different if we'd absorbed more customs from the Ixians. Oh well. Now, off to the session!
Yes I am happy so is tooty and the people we play with are too .
We have fun and dont take things too seriously
Not sure about the Ixian Princess ,they like robots and electronics too much I hear
Anyone who says they are happy all the time is a bloody liar.
But the music can take it. The music is bigger than your own petty foibles.
I went out the other night and I didn't really think I was in any of a different mood than normal, just looking forward to tunes and mates etc. But after an hour or so, the mates were like, "what the feck's wrong with you, you misserable git?" and they were right and I hadn't even realised. I dunno what it was, the wee man had cried for half an hour after he'd gone to bed (teeth), I had a back log of work, I dunno, nothing out of the ordinary really. But my mood was lower than it should have been and I never even realised. So after we'd gone out for a smoke and I'd been told off, I drove into 20 or 30 reels. Cured.
I'm sometimes envious of people that have been around this music all their lives. I'm a very late bloomer and trying hard to catch up. So, I sometimes have to work on my balance as I could overdo if given the opportunity. That's mostly true of my personal time, playing and practicing. When I get to sessions, I always try to just have fun, be polite, respectful and be glad to be part of it. I'd say I'm happier than most of the people I know, and I do agree that it's a decision as much as an attitude.
BTW, what do you say to a cannibal that's depressed at your session? Hey, what's eating you? Or maybe.. Who's eating you? Do you know why cannibals don't eat clowns? They taste funny.
shared the new tune I learned from the Comhaltas tutorial, plus shared a new set I learned up...Donegal reel, Sallys Garden, Salamanca...great fun and friends!
"Anyone who says they are happy all the time is a bloody liar."
Dunno about that. I think it depends on timescale. I can remember times in my life when I've been happy - really happy - every single day for years at a stretch. Admittedly, the last time was some while ago. But I'm happy enough of the time. As much as most, I would think.
"At mehitabel's age, I was happy every single day."
At mehitabel's age, I was happy about 25% of the time--at best. Which I consider pretty damn fortunate. I'm actually more happy overall 30 years later.
We're not all disposed to be sunny every day, even under the best of circumstances.
A survival mechanism the lucky have and cultivate is to remember the past through a cloudy filter, one that tends to misse the miserable moments. Depression for some is not being able to do that, where it starts pilling up, backing up, rising above neck level... The best you can do at times is learn to skull, where you float above, like crossing quicksand... If you struggle, well, you just sink deeper. For some folks music works like water wings, gives us something to fall back on when we tire from the struggle to keep afloat...
mehitabel's age ~ hmmmm...? I think it may be a state of mind outside of normal numeration...
No one is arguing that people simply can't be happy all the time, only that you CAN control how much you let bad things bother you. Llig busted out 20 reels instead of moping about for the evening. That sounds like healthy therapy to me.
Thank you, Llig and GW. Constant happiness is a complete impossibility. Also the concept of it is, in my most humble opinion, fake and wrong. If neuroscientists suddenly came up with a simple, safe operation they could do that makes you totally happy all the time, would you want to have it? OK, so you'd wake up every morning feeling great. But, when you hear news that a close relative has died, you'll just go on being really happy. And when your first child is born, you'll be no more happy than you usually are.
Not long ago I read one of those chirpy little paragraphs in a local paper written by a clergyperson. It asked, "Have you counted your blessings?", or "What can you be thankful for in your life?" - that sort of thing. I had a think.
I tend to value myself mainly by what I've achieved or can do, which is not actually that much. Being able to play trad to the level I've got to has been an important part of this, naturally. And painting - floundering for a long time, then - after some crucial help - finding I could produce a telling painting, and, maybe after a lot more floundering, another...not unlike making progress in playing music. But somehow, when I tried to count my blessings, achievement didn't come into it much.
I tried to make a mental list. Roof over my head. Close family still alive. Then it turned to jobs I'd done, volunteer tasks I'd done and times I'd helped people one way or another. These things seemed somehow more solid things to be thankful for than the personal interests / hobbies / achievements which I had sometimes resented them for interrupting. So too did occasions when I was simply at the receiving end of special experiences - a gig or session now and then, memorable hospitality, some beauty of the natural world, that sort of thing.
Maybe I had better get used to the idea that happiness does not lie, at any rate principally, in individualistic achievement - even if it's an ego-boost at the time.
One thing specific to the music though which I find interesting: I once thought I struggled to play slow when I was not in the best of moods - I thought that it was easier to channel a kind of frustration or anger that goes with a bad mood into ripping into reels. Maybe this is the thing that ceolachan is moaning about?
But now I just feel that I can't play at all if my head is even a little bit miserable. I remember, years ago, enjoying scowling through dark tunes at a fair lick. But I'd play miserable slow tunes also: There's a tune I learned off a Johnny Cunningham record, "Sad is my fate". I remember playing it when my girlfriend dumped me etc etc ... and completely ruining it in a sea of saccharin. I haven't played it for years, but I gave it an outing the other day (don't know why) and I just giggled through all the daft maudlin nonsense of it. It's a lovely tune, a really funny caricature of sadness.
If you're not happy, I have a suggestion for you. Get Netflix. You can instantly watch the movie "Hair." They added it to their instant watch list.
Get to the seen where Berger and his hippie pals crash the wedding party, and he gets up on the enormously-long banquet table, dancing, singing, stepping in the food and breaking half the dishes ...because ..... "He's Got Life."
I love Irtrad, but once in a while I have to take a break to immerse myself in mind-improving culture. Lately, I've found that watching "Hair" has been very elevating......and made me laugh SO MUCH that I just couldn't help being HAPPY.
And oh, the dancing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went back to playing my fiddle with new and improved happiness!
Why is being happy such a good thing or so important? What's wrong
with being _unhappy_ sometimes? In my former country, the USA,
being happy is considered so important that if people feel their
happiness level is deficient, they go to the doctor and get some drugs
to pump it up. The drug companies and stock market just love that
about Americans.
Also, what's wrong with striving to be a really good musician - a
tortured artist if you like? It's not for all of us, but thank
goodness some people live on the edge and make great art.
(DISCLAIMER: Of course, being clinically, suicidally unhappy is a
different story; please go get the drugs. )
the music pleases me, playing along even more. sometimes the music is happy and snappy, sometimes contemplative, sometimes sad.
not a bit wrong when you can finish the workday, have a chat with the spouse and kiss the kiddies and then sit down to play some tunes.
perhaps a bit of a session in the evening...if all goes well no one whisks off on a tangent and no politics or struggles,
Just some fine times with some friends and strangers and the music....there's what keep a smile on through the tough times and a grin during the good.
I guess I'm with llig on this. I felt pretty bummed earlier today. Then went to a session, played a bunch of tunes, met some nice people visiting from far away, and went home feeling good.
Moan? Who me? Eu sou Morpheus. Eu imagino que vocé se sentindo um pouco somo a Alice, entrando pela toca do coelho. Eu vejo nos seus olhos. Vocé tem o olhar de um homem que aceita o que vé porque está esperando acordar. Vou te dizer por que está aqui. Vocé sabe de algo. Mas vocé sente. Vocé deseja saber a que ela é? A nossa volta. É o mundo que foi colocado diante dos seus olhos para que vocé não visse a verdade. Que verdade? Infelizmente, é impossivel dizer… Vocé tem de ver por si mesmo. Esta é sua ultima chance. Depois não há como voltar. Lembre-se…
Pode 'c' falar o português??
É uma língua que eu não possa falar.
And I bet I put all those accents in the wrong places.
He's retelling the plot of the Matrix, I think...
"I actually read a report recently that people who do jobs where they have to constantly smile often become severely depressed because of it. I'll see if I can find it....." ~ Joe CSS
I have that type of job Joe. Pizza Hut (front of house). You have to give a welcoming smile to every customer who walks through the doors and to every customer sat eating their pizza!
I hope I don't get depressed...how can I? I'm surrounded by PIZZA
I am supposed to be. Got five kids out of college...not totally bankrupt. Still working despite the sucky economy. Paid the mortgage today....and the last car payment. I own the damn thing outright today!
When I was kid, everyone teased me for playing the accordion. When I st arted button box, I was using a stepped keyboard and all the box players teased me about that. Got an nice Irish style box....and the freaking keys stick in the holes.
And when I practice Herself comes in and asks me to cut the lawn/feed the dog/get her a bottle of water...right in the middle of things......
I don't know what happy means. Maybe general level of tolerance for things I can't change?
On the other hand....this morning I woke up and I was standing on the daisies....rather than them growing on top of me.
ceolachan asked about our happiness while noting that there sure are some surly people in the world and some of them play musical instruments.
Myself, I always try and be benevolent especially to novice players. I had the good fortune to learn from alot of old guys when I was a young sprog, and I see it as my obligation to the art of music to return that favor.
But I also have played with, and actually been good friends with, musicians that were exactly the opposite.
I honestly think some of them were never happier than when they were tearing into some idiot over something or other (and sometimes it was even me on the receiving end!)
but in the end, we all play our personalities once we get command of the instrument. Some people are just happy to be miserable bastards is the only sense I've ever been able to make of it.
I also have a very smiley job. But tourists take photos of me and call me their "favourite ice cream girl yes!" which makes me happy.
And mr gavin has a point.
Playing some tunes you have to be happy.
But ceol this is Irish & you cannot boil it down so simply. Even a wake can be joyous. But at some point the lament begins.
That is what your 1st post was, eh? a lament for players who cannot be happy
Cheers
;)
Wild and strange arguments with Jehovah's Witnesses are FUN! Especially if you're Jewish. Once I was stopped in the street by a whole family of them, and they started telling me their usual stuff - about the Messiah, repentance, how evil the World is, et cetera - and I think they were put a bit off-balance to find that I knew just as much as them, and was willing and able to argue. I remained very friendly, and said I was perfectly happy with my own religion, thank you very much, and, although they realised they had failed this time, we parted on good terms.
Yeah, I agree, Joe CSS. Just ignore the dogma, forget the 'Jehovah' label, and have a friendly funny light hearted chat, as humans beings. I really like wild strange arguments...
Mehit ~ It is not the Matrix as we know it... Some selective editing was involved...
"Jehova's Witnesses" ~ My wife won't let me talk to them anymore. All I'll say is that when they went away from here they were in a worse state than when they arrived, and they weren't smiling ~ full of questions and contradictions their simple answers couldn't handle... They wanted to preach and convert. I just wanted to understand, so I listened and asked... They always seem to eventually take us off their route anyway, so my wife really hasn't anything to worry about...
nicholas ~ some of us may just be the butterfly, unaware of the typhoon our fluttering might give seed to...
Random_notes ~ nope! I'm not the happy slappy sort. I love a good wake, in the full spirit of it, giving rise to memories and humour, and letting myself feel tue loss fully as well. I love music because it isn't monochrome, the greys are at near as plentiful as the other shades. I value all the humours. The trick is to always dig the hole in a way that you can eventually pull yourself up and crawl out. The great thing about holes is that you can bury things in them, and it's always a good thing to till the soil anyway... Sometimes it can see damned hard, hopeless. Fortunately for me, music has never left me alone, whatever my mood or predicament. The knowledge of that does make me happy...though I do sometimes get swept away by the emotions of a moment... I also appreciate a good cry... Life like music is not monochrome either...
ceolachan, if you sent them away 'not smiling' and 'worse than when they came', that says a lot about you and your ideas...why would you want to diminish people and make them unhappy ? Is that your religion ?
You are judging again... I only asked questions. Their dissatisfaction was that I didn't just listen and smile back. I wanted to understand the discrepancies in their dogma. But, I shouldn't be talking with you anyway when you're on another crusade to attack this heathen... I DID NOT SAY THEY WENT AWAY UNHAPPY ~ just dissatisfied... My wife is too kind to allow me acts of full disrespect and discourtesy. That is not my way, though it may be for some...
Please, if you can't manage to be civil, at least be sage...
Damn, I slipped in the shight again, and I promised myself I'd sidestep any steaming piles... Sadly, I haven't had much sleep lately, allergies taking their toll. So, now I've got the whif, I will start the process of backing up and walking around, and finding someplace ot wash off the stink...
No I did not club him and then eat him. At the time, I fantasized about reading his pamphlets between mouthfuls. He is alive and unhurt. Later on, at the session, I was put in mind of the crowd who started this music, and their attitudes about strangers (the non-violent ones) and who would, if any thing, have welcomed the opertunity to counter illogic with illogic of their own. Plus, the arival of strangers presented a welcome break from farm work. Tea would be brought out, the price of hay discussed, and maybe the fairy situation. Through their music, they developed an antidote to sadness. Its a powerul tonic and formulated for much more serious matters. Crazy people at the door were as nothing compared to such things, requiring only tea, smoke, and chat. Problem solved.
"...I'll say is that when they went away from here they were in a worse state than when they arrived, and they weren't smiling... "
I read that as a triumphalist statement, declaring *your* dominance over those folks who couldn't handle your inferred superior understanding....so, *your* religion is built upon belittling others, in the service of boosting your ego ?
You sure kicked their asses, eh ? Therefore what ? You're a better man than they are ? Your 'truths' are 'truer' ?
Y'all don't get a lot of eejits ramming their religion down your throat door to door in the wilds of Wales, eh wolfbird?
It's a fairly common situation here. Someone wants to sell you something, a religion in this case. They knock on your door, you invite them in (I sure don't, I don't let salespeople in my house) and then their sales pitch begins. Usually, it's pretty poor. With questionable sales pitches, heck, even with all sales pitches, a wise consumer will ask questions and probe the sales pitch, to determine if the salesperson and the product or service they are offering is really all the sales pitch makes it out to be. Only a foolish consumer doesn't do this, IMHO.
Most religious sales pitches don't handle objections very well, or questions, etc. In real life sales, potential customer objections are a fact of life, and successful salespeople know of and are able to counter every potential customer objection.
Now I have to go back to making juvenile jokes and discussing ‘the music’ before my head explodes. If I wanted to talk about sales I’d go do some work. HA!
I had the misfortune to live for some years very near the Jehovah's Witnesses' centre in North London. I found, on answering to the door to their calls, that the plain statement 'God has asked me not to talk to you' saw them scurrying away pretty rapidly. I humbly recommend this tactic.
You'd be surprised how many, SWFL. Maybe about 10 times a year. I'm not easy to find. Then there's gypsy types wanting to buy scrap, and back packers that get themselves lost., etc. If you don't want to talk, don't let 'em in. Just be firm and polite, 'maybe another time, it's not convenient'. No problem.
If I feel like talking, I'll talk to anybody. I enjoy myself and share the enjoyment. I know the Jehovah's Witnesses feel bound to bring me to their understanding of the Bible. There's no chance of that happening, but that's not the point. There's certain fundamentals that are common to all religions, like kindness, compassion, honesty, etc.
My conception of 'God' is defined as everything, all you'll ever know, all you'll ever experience. It's kinda big and all-encompassing. Too big for any words, too big to be put into any book, including the ancient texts.
It's like Wittgenstein's duckrabbit. Some see a duck, and insist they're right. Some see a rabbit, and insist they're right. But it's a duck and it's a rabbit, both and neither.
I have a Jehovah's Witness that come by the place from time to time. He's and old fella named Norm. He's ok.
They believe that people should talk to each other about God and life and whatnot. Can't say as I can really disagree with that.
I got past the trying to convert me stuff a few years ago and now he just comes by visit. If Norm brings along another one of the JHs he always tells them right upfront that I'm a Catholic so that they don't start in on converting me.
But then again, Fishmonger, it is NOT a tonic that works for every constitution, or every situation. That is no failing on your part. Seldom was it ever the solution to peoples' existential problems. Sad to say, it may have been more of an escape than anything else. Having music when one has nothing to eat doesn't suppress that kind of pain. Has it given you no insights though? No sense of who went before?
'Confusion' is not necessarily the same as 'unhappy'...
wolf, you love reading things into anything I write ~ to the negative... I can't help that. Obviously you have a problem with me, c'est la vie. ~
"...I'll say is that when they went away from here they were in a worse state than when they arrived, and they weren't smiling... "
A smile doesn't necessarily go with 'bemused' and 'confused'. Let's say they left with 'doubt'. I guess, in their frame of mind, that might mean they were not exactly 'happy'. But I did not treat them rudely, as you have me on several occassions...for whatever reason you have to do so... They left less sure, and for Jehova Witnesses that would be considered an unwanted state, a 'worse state'... Buy hey, you read into it what you want...
Your sad words, quoting back, as proof ~
"You sure kicked their asses, eh ? Therefore what ? You're a better man than they are ? Your 'truths' are 'truer' ?" ~ wolf
No, hardly, as I said several times ~ I asked questions. We talked. And, I seriously wanted to know, and to understand their history, which includes some awful facts, including blatant bigotry and racism, and that's just the mild stuff...
I've just been playing some lovely tunes, so I'm managing to hold back from saying what emotions would like to dish out. I haven't much patience for wolf's BS, and I guess to him, that's all I am. I work hard to turn it over, make sure the worms are healthy, and work toward a reasonable compost out of it all in the end...
Besides, aside from the music, there's all you here making chat, and I've enjoyed following that. It does outweigh the little that chooses to be a personal attack. I've had it from wolf before, but I am a little short op patience today... The music is helping me to recharge that, as is reading what the rest of you have to say, here and elsewhere.
Back to playing some tunes. I'll do my best to reclaim a little balance, maybe some stepping to a bit of lilting as I fix dinner...
"God has asked me not to talk to you!" ~ Good one floss...
I used to live near Kingdom Hall in the Central Valley of California, and every Saturday morning Jehovah's Witnesses filled the streets going door-to-door. If you looked out the window it resembled a Magritte painting.
One of them that came to my door was a nice fellow, Dave, who had no teeth despite being a young man, and when I used my standard Jehovah's Witnesses repellent saying that our apartment building is actually The Bozo Foundation -- like Kingdom Hall -- he wanted to know more instead of moving on. We would have long chats where he would tell me something about his faith and I'd make up things about The Bozo Foundation.
Our apartment building was a Bozo Foundation of sorts, (that's what we called it,) and some of the inhabitants, (all crazy musical friends in a 6-unit complex,) had a fascination with world religions. Two of them actually went and lived in the Krishna Temple in SF just to see what it was like.
One Saturday morning Dave showed up at my door accompanied by a very serious looking Jehovah's Witness armed with Bibles and other books, and Dave nervously asked if we could talk. Apparently Dave had been sharing some of the details of our encounters down at the Hall, and it wasn’t considered appropriate. I didn't have anything better to do that morning, so I thought a bit of the old religious debate might be fun. I invited the two fellas who had lived at the Krishna temple down and I acted as moderator in what would be an East vs. West religious debate of sorts.
I should let you know that my neighbor at the time, a brilliant bass player, was using primal therapy dealing with some psychological problems he was suffering with. He had built a small room within his living room that he lined with carpet remnants, and every Saturday morning everyone in the building was used to hearing him howl and scream. It sounded like a far away and spooky scream, but we all supported his self-improvement efforts and adapted with no complaint.
So anyway, here we were in my living room with the two ex-Krishna devotees and the two Jehovah's Witnesses about to commence with our debate. As moderator, I started by asking the two ex-Krishna devotees to state their case. After they finished I asked the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the guy Dave brought with him stood up and opened his Bible, raised his finger and immediately began to attack the ex-Krishna devotees for being "idol worshipers." Just at that moment my next-door neighbor began his primal therapy and let out a blood curdling and hideous scream that sounded like it was coming from deep within the bowels of the Earth beneath the building. My reaction to it was the same as the ex-Krishna devotee's, that is to say, no reaction at all since we were used to it. But none of us said anything or even flinched. The Jehovah's Witness dude froze with his finger in the air and the blood seemed to drain from his face. He glanced nervously at Dave, who appeared petrified, and then he slammed his Bible shut, thanked us for the discussion and said they had many more houses to visit that day and had to be going. With that they scurried away like frightened church mice.
Needless to say, from that moment forward when the Magritte-like streets were filled with people in suits and carrying brief cases, no Jehovah’s Witness ever darkened the door of the Bozo Foundation again.
~ not at the moment. Personal attacks have a way of souring ones mood, but I have good music and good company and good friends to help clear that away...
When one of my friends was confronted by either a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon at his door, his response was... "You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe, and I believe my breakfast is getting cold."
That's fine. Nobody is under any obligation to listen to evangelists.
Nobody is under any obligation to let someone in, unless they have a legally enforceable right of entry.
However, if you do invite someone into your home, as ceolachan did, then, the way I see it, they are your guest.
Most places in the world have a cultural code for hospitality. You treat people who enter your house as guests in a decent fashion.
I've got no particular axe to grind regarding Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or any other group. But if ceolachan had substituted jew or catholic or blacks or irish or gypsies or any similar minority term in his initial description of how he behaved towards Jehovah's Witnesses, there'd be outrage and accusations here. I just find it's hypocritical to set up a thread on being happy, and then describe how you made some people unhappy, and justify it because they are folks who take their religion seriously. I find that rather offensive.
Those people are trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, as they understand them.
Why that makes it okay to despise and abuse them, I don't understand. They don't steal, murder, lie, cheat. If you don't want to hear what they have to say, just tell 'em to go away. To ask them in and then score a few cheap points at their expense is just perverse, imo.
I didn't start this thread, and I'm not happy all the time, so...
"Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus' death was necessary to atone for the sin brought into the world by the first man, Adam, opening the way for the hope of everlasting life for mankind, and that 144,000 anointed Christians will receive immortal life in heaven as co-rulers with Christ, ruling over the rest of mankind during the Millennial Reign. Witnesses believe that during the imminent war of Armageddon, the wicked will be destroyed, and survivors, along with millions of others who will be resurrected, will form a new earthly society ruled by a heavenly government and have the possibility of living forever in an earthly paradise..."
Wiki, I know, but that's basically why they're at your door. 144,000 seems like an awfully low number, don't you think??. And "imminent Armageddon" just sounds like a real drag. How can they be happy with so much resting on their every action to make the 144k cut? I say when they knock knock, drop your drawers, thumb your nose, and wish them much happiness when the "heavenly government" arrives! But remember, don't let them in because then they are "guests," not solicitors.
Solicitors,gw ? There are (if memory serves correctly) more than a hundred different agencies (in UK) which are legally entitled to break into your home without your permission. If you resist or object, you're committing an offence.
You think the J W's have cranky ideas. Well, please tell me who hasn't got cranky ideas ?
Well, global warming is an emotive issue where I'm concerned, and I have discussed it with Jehovah's Witnesses who have called here. I'm always willing to discuss any subject with anybody. I like Voltaire's idea. However much I may hate what some people may say, I'm willing to die for their right to say it. I think freedom of speech and belief is one of the few fundamental rights which are actually worth fighting for.
But I'm certainly not going to defend the particular beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses, because they are not my own.
Same goes for the Mormons, Quakers, Salvation Army, Catholics, Skull and Bones, Crowleyites, Holocaust deniers, Ba'ahis, Sikhs, followers of Gurdjieff, Freemasons, Atheists, Hare Krishnas, etc, etc,....
I don't think this is about what other people believe. It's about how you treat fellow humans. And it's worth remembering that the Nazi's attempt to eradicate all Jews began with propaganda campaigns to ridicule their beliefs and cast them as ridiculous, less than human. Jehovah's Witnesses were likewise shipped to the death camps, along with gypsies, homosexuals, so called mentally retarded, and anybody else not considered socially acceptable by the 'superior' regime and it's supporters.
I don't invite anyone into my home unless I want to. Once they step inside, they're my guest. I like to argue, and I like to have fun. The last few Jehovah's Witnesses I've spoken to were really nice people and we had a good laugh the whole time. I couldn't have wished for more pleasant company. That doesn't mean that we agreed about *anything*....
You must be a hardy and resilient soul, wolf, to be entering into arguments with the JWs, God bless em.
They wore me down in the end. I must have been on a list, because there was a regular parade in pairs at the door asking whether I was interested in "saving the world".
Holy hell!
In the end, I kept an Amway flyer from my letterbox and told them I was indeed interested in saving the world and before they had a chance to elaborate, I held up the Amway flyer saying this is a way enabled by God to indeed "save the world" - and make a lot of money for the church as well, and that they needed to take this flyer.,..take it back to their elders...talk to them...*show* them this gift and how much money they could make to take the good work forward. And besides, the elders might be very unhappy if they didn't come to know about this good message.
They tend to get a horrified look on their face in that situation, as if they are talking to the devil incarnate.
I must have got dropped off the list then. Never received another visit.
Thanks Amway.
Next time I'll just sit there and play tunes for them.
Well, Duijerah Dubh, I seem to recall extended threads haggling with you over one thing or another, and I didn't notice you lacked stamina.
IMO, Amway is exploitative and pernicious. I think I'd prefer J W's, if I had to choose. At least they have moral scruples.
But I'm not inclined to join any group. I like to know what others think and believe, though, so I've debated with all sorts, Moslems, Scientologists, Divine Light, evangelical Protestants, Jesuits, Humanists, Nihilists, Aryan Supremacists, Theosophists....all sorts.
I'm just thinking back over encounters with JW's and why I had so much fun...I use Socratic dialogue technique...and I laugh all the time I ask them why they believe what they believe, and they give the standard reply 'It's written in the Bible', so I say it's just a book, and they say, no, it's the word of God, and I say, but God doesn't write, only people write, and they say, yes, but those people were inspired by God...and so on, until I get to ask whether they, as people are inspired by God, here, now, in the room...it's like nose to nose confrontation with reality...it's fun. What can you do ? We're all just humans. We were born, and we will die. Nobody really knows why we exist or why anything exists. All we do is tell ourselves, and others, stories, to try and make the experience of existing tolerable...May as well laugh as cry, no ?
Hey, wolf, you've missed out on catholics and kabbalists on that list.
(I used to have stamina, wolf, but debates on this site tend to knock the stuffing out of that. So I'm semi-retired now.)
Socratic dialogue sounds a lot more circumspect than handing them an Amway flyer. If you want to save time though, just do what I do, and sing this to them:
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
De things dat yo' liable to read in de Bible
It ain't necessarily so
/ Am D Am D / Am D Am - / D7 Eb7 D7 Eb7 / B7 E7 Am - /
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
Dey tell all you chillun de debble's a villain
But 'taint necessarily so
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
But who calls dat livin' when no gal'll give in
To no man what's nine hundred years
I'm preachin' dis sermon to show
It ain't nessa, ain't nessa
Ain't nessa, ain't nessa
It ain't necessarily soooooo...
Well, I have to stay awake for a while yet, although I'd prefer to sleep...that's a great tune, and great lyrics...
Thing is, if I'm not in the mood to talk, I just tell them, and they go away. They always seem to accept that and don't try to push.
If I want to talk, I invite them in. I don't try to change their views to mine. I just treat them the same as any other person I'd invite in.
I read a great quote from Thoreau, on his death bed.
A priest asked him if he'd like to make peace with God.
Thoreau replied, "I didn't know we had ever quarrelled".
I too am from a similar school of reasoning as mr. wolf. Only I would like to add the remarks of one alan watts, "Religion is not supposed to taken seriously."
And for me, I admire this gentleman with the red hair, white complexion and gin blossomed schnozzle. Made me laugh in my darkest hours and commenced a cartoon from time to time. I bow my head. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/04/content_8490036.htm
You know the Russian Orthodox Church ? It doesn't strike one as being lighthearted or humorous institution, but apparently, prior to the Communist revolution, there was a denomination of Russian orthodox priests who were clowns, and travelled all over that vast country from village to village dressed in clown costumes putting on shows...if I remember, it derived from the Italian Pierot, Harlequin tradition, which also gave us Punch and Judy shows and other circus stuff
No one likes us, I don't know why.
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try.
When all around even our old friends put us down,
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.
I was trying to find or remember an apt Bukowski quote for this one, but I didn't find it. Too busy with work and play, playing music, reading Grimm Brothers fairy tales... I just thought I'd poke my head above the parapet. Oh how I'd love to lop a dead and rotting carcass at those damned crusaders...
There are a good share of religious inclinations scattered amongst our families, including the born again, agnostics and aethiests, and a few panthiests too ~ of several different definitions.
Bless the JWs. My experience, first, my wife doesn't let them in the house, second, they are like salesmen with their foot in the door, and sadly, I'm not want to slam it in their face, so we talk, which is what they are wanting. In the end they go away bemused and I still haven't gotten a reasonable answer from the few queries I will have placed. I avoid that now and do as others have suggested, "Sorry, we're not buying anything at the moment." "Dinner's getting cold!" Doesn't seem to work, as they just feel the need to return later. At least, discussion tended to mean they didn't return later. Whatever I say, however, is p*ssin' in the rain as far as Master Wolfbird is concerned...
My wife would say, "Don't bother! It isn't worth it." She's generally right, but I still get myself in trouble... In the case of whatever developed bigotry Master Wolfbird has nurtured with regards to me, yes, she's right, it isn't much use to slap at muck with a cricket bat... It is better to dodge slurry slinging, to avoid it where possible...
At the moment I'm very happy, someone sent me an unexpected 'thank you' and a gift... So while on the one hand my bad karma is wolfbird, which I can choose to avoid, on the other there's good karma and good music to balance things... I've put the cricket bat away for now... I've promised my wife to work on the good karma and finish some projects for her school, music and dance... And, I've also got to prepare for my own classes this week...
Here's a bit of jolly with a hint of the blues in it too, something I've been having joy playing and thought it would be nice to share it with the rest of you, another lovely single jig ~
Folks is folks, my general welcome and inclination to query is the same for whoever's company I've the pleasure or displeasure of. I can't help being interested in why people think a thing. Wanting to know has gotten me in trouble many times before, but mostly it furthers my understanding. Understanding is something I value very highly.
I don't write folks off for their general inclinations. The only really bad mark either of us in this house have ever really felt was with regards to the treatment of others, when someone else recieves an ufair judgement or is put down. Cruelty falls under that category of things we haven't patience for, and yes, we'd be outspoken about it. Our dislikes are more to do with actions and attitudes, not specifically with an individual or ideology. I must admit, I don't handle well the idea that everybody who doesn't agree with another is doomed to some kind of awful end in a realm some call hell. I don't feel any better about accordion and bodhran players being similarly condemned. So, the subject of who is and who isn't, going there or there, well, when with the born-again family members, we avoid that topic.
Where it's not 'family', well, if there is enough disagreement, it is best to just avoid that person's company where possible.
It seems sad to me that some find their happiness in seeing themselves as the chosen ones with all the answers and everybody else as lost, misguided and damned. At least the JWs are open to conversion...
I still haven't found that Bukowski quote, but enjoyed reading his poem again about poetry readings...
at high noon
at a small college near the beach
sober
the sweat running down my arms
a spot of sweat on the table
I flatten it with my finger
blood money blood money
my god they must think I love this like the others
but it's for bread and beer and rent
blood money
I'm tense lousy feel bad
poor people I'm failing I'm failing
a woman gets up
walks out
slams the door
a dirty poem
somebody told me not to read dirty poems
here
it's too late.
my eyes can't see some lines
I read it
out-
desperate trembling
lousy
they can't hear my voice
and I say,
I quit, that's it, I'm
finished.
and later in my room
there's scotch and beer:
the blood of a coward.
this then
will be my destiny:
scrabbling for pennies in tiny dark halls
reading poems I have long since beome tired
of.
and I used to think
that men who drove buses
or cleaned out latrines
or murdered men in alleys were
fools.
Yeah, literature, like Bukowski's writings, Roddy Doyle, and many, many others ~ poetry, fiction, ideas ~ make me happy, generally. Amongst one of my lesser known favourites is the poet Han Shan. Bless him. Thanks to all those who took the bother to craft tales and notions and to write them down... Good reads definitely make me happy, and similarly to the music...
Ol' Jonah he lived in a whale
Ol' Jonah he lived in a whale
Yes, he made his home in that fishes abdomen
Ol' Jonah he lived in a whale
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
He floated on water till ol' Pharaoh's daughter
She fished him - she says! - from that stream...
I know, I know, Joe. I only picked the verses I thought might mystify / outrage / disconcert ( in varying order) the JWs at the door, and cause them to retreat in confusion, thinking I was the *debble* alright. It'd probably work I'd say, and maybe less *in your face* than an Amway flyer. I'm a diplomat you know.
I just profess my belief in the Trinity and point out the difference in John 1:1 in "their" bible. They avoid our house.
To the Mormons, I just say "I'm a Christian."
And, yes, I do uphold their right to express their beliefs. It's not my job to separate the sheep from the goats. It's my job to love my neighbor.
Am I happy? most of the time. Would I trade my lows (via medication) for an even keel, therefore sacrificing my highs? Nope. Sadness is a real feeling.
But, that's just me and I can't speak for anyone else.
Ah, it wasn't me with the philosophical nonsense for a change! [whew]
...but since you started, wyogal...
Wither happiness, if no sadness, right? If we were happy all the time, how would we know we were happy without sadness? You can't have one without the other.
...which makes the thought of modern psychology and it's status as a drug dealer for the pharm industry pretty damn funny to me. Happy pills from the man so you can be happy all the time? Danger Will Robinson, danger!
Hey, better still, I think next time for the JWs, I'll just hold up a copy of "Escape from the Watchtower" with an offer of purchase with an easy instalment plan, while singing Ain't necessarily So. (I can put the Amway flyer on the inside cover, and tell them they have that responsibility to God and their Elders to make the good news of this revenue source available to mankind.) Double whammy! Then I could talk about the Trinity like wyo. Wow what a day for them!
Thanks all.
I liked the comic books, much better than their bible for a quick read and entertainment value... I don't know if they still have them or not. I visited one of their schools as and got to see the literature they've developed for children, all ages. But while having a passion for reading, loving print and pictures, I'll take living discourse any day over the black and white... Hearing the passions of others usually gives me pleasure, makes my happy. I also feel good when I find I can help others. My favourite jobs have been those where the payment was not focused on the monetary, often lacking it completely, even being 'out-of-pocket' ~ that includes the backwoods dances and celebrations we've been blessed to be party to, in good company, great craic...
When we have the Witnesses come to the door, I am cordial as can be...Herself's St. Bernard stands next to me demonstrating his unwillingness to consider conversion! Usually convinces them to move on to more productive venues.
I did like the Thoreau quote someone made. I will have to remember that for when I need a joke that doesn't involve burning, stomping, slicing or taping (duct taping that is) a particular instument, doesn't insult a particular ethnic or religious group, doesn't use off color or obscene language, doesn't refer to female body parts, or flatulence.
Sorry Mr. C, I'm slacking, I love me some Bukowski. Check out the second quote.
For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state and our education system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
-- Charles Bukowski, Life magazine, December 1988, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief
The whole LSD, STP, marijuana, heroin, hashish, prescription cough medicine crowd suffers from the "Watchtower" itch: you gotta be with us, man, or you're out, you're dead. This pitch is a continual and seeming MUST with those who use the stuff. It's no wonder they keep getting busted.
-- Charles Bukowski, comparing drug addiction with being a Jehovah's Witness, in Tales of Ordinary Madness, "The Big Pot Game" (1967), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations
Bad day today, I did an awful job teaching, but at least most were laughing when the evening drew to a close... Lost sleep definitely has me semi-conscious...
That's not the quote I was half remembering, at least I don't think so, but the comparisons some have made between drugs, addiction and religion do interest me... I love Bukowski's rawness... It is much preferred to those who readily judge others and even have the cruel tendency to freely condemn others to damnation, hell... I wouldn't wish a slow and painful cancer rotting death on anyone, let alone that they suffer an eternity in some fantasy of pergatory... I just can't concieve that. The illnesses that plague out kind, in heart and mind, are, from my experience, the result of deep festering wounds... I understand the need for jails, but not for a vengeful god or gods, or a hell...
I do like that Larson cartoon though, "Here's your piano accordion, welcome to hell!"
Perhaps Hell is a place prepared for a merciful God for those who have lived corrupt lives, abused children, wives, the poor and helpless etc because they couldn't stand to be in the presence of a good, pure and loving God knowing their guilt. Perhaps the "flames" are the manifestation of extreme quilt on the conscience.
Avoid the the strawman, or the "strawgod" that is so easily dismissed. Of course, unless you have predetermined to dismiss Him.
You are entering my turf! That Larson cartoon is my icon on a number of other web sites I participate in from time to time. Larson and Dennis the Menace. Two cartoons that reflect my personality.
On Church, I joke with my teacher about that. My musical doppleganger is as a church musician. My box teacher also plays from time to time at an Irish church. He and I joke that we are creating a new liturgical music expression using the Button Box.
Two of the finest memories I have as far as church going, was high mass in Newfoundland and Holly Rollers in the SE USA... I loved both... I got high off of both...
Whenever Jehovah's Witnesses would come by, I would tell them that I am a member of a church and have been attending services at this church regularly for several years. I would tell them which church and they would go away and leave me alone. We haven't been visited by any Jehovah's Witnesses for a few years now (whenever I think of these people, I have to avoid the temptation to refer to them as Jehovah's Witlesses).
As for whether or not I am happy, I am usually happiest or most content when I am playing music.
As for my day job, since I work in a hospital as clerical support staff helping the doctors and nurses take care of the patients, I feel as if I am doing something useful because I am helping take care of sick people.
Have any of you ever heard the joke, "If God designed me in His own image, then He must have a goofy sense of humor."?
When my father (who is an agnotiscal atheist and/or an atheistical agnostic or something similar) asked why I joined a church and attend the services there regularly, I told him that he had always tried to encourage me to learn how to think for myself and this was one of the results. Since then, my father hasn't asked me any more questions about my religious beliefs.
Herself bought me a Caldecott winner kids book about pigs flying...
I suppose it was in reponse to what I would tell her every time she wanted to take a long expensive vacation somewhere.
As far as the witnesses go, I am at the point that I just say 'No habla Ingles" when approached. Works on fundraisers for the national Republican party (the current cabal wreaking havoc In Washington DC) equally as well.
Now that all of the uplifting spirituality has evaporated in the heat of the scorching sun, the big temptation is to to go out to the front door, and put the bone bundles back up on their pegs.
Are We Happy?
Are We Happy?
No, really, are we? Are you happy? Find a nice comfortable seat and a favourite brew, relax and take a few deep breaths to raise the oxygen content in the blood heading for your brain. Now, please, be serious, consider this and let fly...
Why ask it? Well, I've met some real misery guts associated with this thing some of us value, if by different measurments, this 'tradition', Irish or otherwise. I remember one kid that was a talent and a wreck. They were brilliant as a techie and had all the twiddles in their box of tricks anyone could want, executed crisply and with great accuracy. But, they weren't happy. Come on, you must have met the likes, folks that tend to do a hell of a lot of moaning, to always have a critical comment about anyone else's playing. There's those that are more interested in being on show and winning medals than just kickin' back and having a tune just for the hell of it, interspersed with chat and in the company of friends. Some just can't seem to manage any state anywhere near to relaxation. And there's those that think everything is a time to shine, to show their stuff, to outdo the competition, even when there isn't any. They might be good, even great, as far as things technically, and some of these miserable gits can be so able that it would be hard for them to stumble into a setting where there was someone that could better them, and yet they are stuck in the need to prove something. Yeah, there are those that do get some almost sadistic pleasure out of besting another, out of putting someone down, musically or with words, but are they really happy?
Another sad case was also a point of talent, but pushed to injury. They pushed so hard they ended up with serious RSI to the point of having to give up the music. And amongst the lost, I remember one sweet and kind person who ended up an alcoholic with the shakes to the point that it got in the way of their talent for music, spoiled it for them and those around them. No is the answer in their case, I know from chats we had that they weren't happy. Then there was the spouse of a well respected musician that when that musician died, too young, tobacco related decay, the spouse took everything the other owned, loads of sheets of music of tunes he'd collected from others, reels of tapes of recordings of others collected over many, many years, and their beloved musical instruments ~ made a pile of it and poured petrol over it and set it alight... It seems the musician in question had forgot to balance things, responsibilities and concerns, like for their spouse and children, badly taken for granted to the point that when they died the frustrations that had built up over time exploded into hate...
So, have we got the balance right? Do you? What is 'balance'? What is 'happiness'? ~ Where the likes of us are concerned? Some folks are trying so damned hard they seem to have missed the whole heart of what this tradition is about, to have missed it in their accumulation of quantity, to have somehow not quite realized that quality is about more than how well you can execute a roll or how fast you can play a particular tune before it goes la-la? Some are completely unaware there is a 'point of la-la'... So, are we a happy lot? Are you happy? If so, spread the joy. If not, accept commiserations, from me at least...
Waffle on, waffle on, dearly beloved, waffle on...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
well....to quote from my own profile...'music is about joy and energy and positive vibe."
Guess I'm just a happy hippy. If people want to screw it up for themselves - take it too seriously, then they can butt out of my space.
That doesn't mean that doing it right isn't important...but music is not funky if it is not played in the right spirit.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by bodatcha
Re: Are We Happy?
I *was* happy, until I read your post. Now I'm depressed.
Seriously, the main reason that I play the music is that it makes me happy and lifts my spirits. If it didn't put a smile on my face I probably wouldn't do it. From some of my posts it might seem like I take it oh-so-seriously, but it's really just a way to have some fun.
Besides, I can't really play when I'm upset, anxious, sad, etc. I just can't play like a robot and keep my emotions out of it.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Are We Happy?
I'm always happy, so very happy!!!!
- this is me on a good day
- this is me on a bad day
- this is me when I'm sleeping (but only with eyes closed)
Seriously, people who are privileged enough to have computers to use don't have an excuse to be unhappy.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
Mehitabel, you obviously aren't a computer programmer.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Are We Happy?
So: rich people have no right to ever be unhappy.
Therefore, money = happiness.
And also, constant smiling = constant happiness.
Really??
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are We Happy?
Happiness is a choice. Many folks become addicted to their self-depreciating ways without even knowing it. With some practice, every brain can be trained and re-wired to expect happy outcomes instead of negative. Personally, although "tragic artist" types make for a good story line on the TV, I'd rather hang out with folks like the Princess of Ix, Mehitabel - better craic at those sorts of sessions.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Are We Happy?
I'm too busy smiling to listen to any of you
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
Aww thanks JNE!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
Oh yeah and something cool I learnt. If you're ever sad put a pen in your mouth (lengthways, so it forces your mouth into a smile shape). Apparently if your smile muscles are forced to move your body associates this with happiness and you feel happier.
The things you learn on the internet!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
..."you obviously aren't a computer programmer."
LOL! Ain't that the truth!
Am I happy? Sometimes. I'm almost always happy when I'm playing music live--meaning performing. Can't say that just picking up the instrument lifts my spirits. Can't say that I would want it to. There's got to be a little misery that goes along with it or it isn't really real... Don't you think??
..."constant smiling = constant happiness."
People who smile all the time make me suspicious. I have a neighbor who always has a big, cheesy grin on his face... What's he building in there??
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
Sorry to barge past your question, ceolachan, but I've got one for bodatcha. In your travels around S. Devon, have you ever run into Mike Grevina? Now, ceolachan, back to your survey: We're keeping it together. People much sadder than ourselves have played this music. Really, by rights it belongs to them.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
for me, the music is a very good thing. in the past, it might not have always been. my great grandmother was very upset to hear that my uncle was learning to play the flute when he was a child, because of the fact that drinking and playing were inseparable for men back then, and that often, the only pay for a gig was in guiness. my unlce did not succumb to the drink, and neither have i.
i treat the music as a source of enrichment, entertainment, tradition, art, but not as a source of validating myself or deeming others around me inferiorly. i spend a a lot of time thinking about the music, singing it, having it caught in my head, and reading about it, but it does not consume me.
i am very happy, as the music has taught me a lot about relaxing, about confidence, a lot about learning, and life, and about spontaneity and structure.
i got my first job so that i could buy a concertina (3 years later and it's almost finished being built), and through working i learned how to manage my time, stress, life, money, and social life. through music i have made many friends--because of playing for a group of german-learning students at college, i moved onto the foreign language floor, and have made so many long-term friends who i would never have met before, including friends from taiwan, japan, china, bosnia, taiwan, brazil, germany, france, guatemala, and of course america (where i live).
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by daiv
Re: Are We Happy?
*deeming others around me to be inferior
although, of cours, deeming that way would be an inferior way to deem, but it was not what i meant!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by daiv
Re: Are We Happy?
What must sessions on the island of lx have been like? Can you imagine, an entire room full of lxians? An entire Island? Talk about happy breeds. To lose all that beneath the waves, and go on smiling! That's some championship resilience, Miss mehitabel ma'am.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
all things pass, even this,
no condition is permanent,
so best to be beyond happy
and unhappy...serene bliss...
and if things get *really* tough,
we'll just have to eat the rich
people...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
I'm not sure I believe all that about Ix - I think mehitabel is really a reincarnation of fiddlebabe (remember her?)...!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Are We Happy?
You can't play good traditional music and not be happy - well not until one of these "boy racers" or technical experts join your session and try to change its ethos and direction! I think happiness is all about good music and tunes as opposed to prima donna type performances from over trained/rehearsed individuals who feel they're on a different level to us mere mortals.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Are We Happy?
"People who smile all the time make me suspicious." ~ gw
It always seemed to me, in days beneath the sea, that the sharks & barracudas were always smiling while groupers always seemed to frown... One makes a tasty meal for the t'other, I'll leave it to reason for you to guess who's who...
NIce one screech, on both counts... The poor programmers...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
A co-worker of me explained to me after his vacation that he needed it to get his head cleared, and it was just after his statement that I realised that that's precisely what I get from playing music. Down at the session or at home on my own, my concentration on what's going on in that moment, on the music I'm playing sweeps my head of any unnecessary thoughts. That is a great feeling.
I am happy when I'm playing, I play for that reason.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by TMB
Re: Are We Happy?
Firstly, I know for a fact that Mehitabel23 is not ALWAYS happy.
this is me on a good day
this is me on a bad day
this is me on a confusing day
Secondly, I would much prefer a person who is happy when there is a reason to be happy, unhappy when there is a reason to be, who is, in other words, a well-balanced individual.
etc..
I actually read a report recently that people who do jobs where they have to constantly smile often become severely depressed because of it. I'll see if I can find it.....
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are We Happy?
Yes, a lot of the lxian stuff might be doubtful, but it sure goes down a lot better than announcing one's self as a refugee from Easter Island, which she could have done. Think of the sessions on Easter Island! Wolfbird, think of the cannibalism.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
JOE - when have I EVER not been happy???
Guys, the Ix stuff is totally true, just google it.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
When you're a screamin' loonie...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ix_(Dune)
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
I googled as suggested, mehitabel, ....what `i found was this...
seems to cover the territory ?
http://ian.macky.net/secretmuseum/
(I've had my supper, so I don't need to consider cannibalism. At least, not for a few days...)
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by wolfbird
You'll have to cut and paste that link. This site took off the parenthesis and consequently it won't link. Let me try another ~
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Ix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ix_%28Dune%29
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ix_%28Oz%29
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Isn't that you, top right corner, ceolachan ? I thought the hat and expression was familiar...took me a moment to figure out where I'd seen you before...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
We're having `long pig' at our house tonight too. Then it's off to the session. No austerity programs here just yet.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
In 'The Secret Museum', no that's me da... I'm in technicolour...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
'long pig' Mr. Quigley, you've got to stop chewing on your whittles... It is a clear sign of stress...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
I never read "Dune." But I did read "Gravity's Rainbow"--twice. Now I'm unhappy...
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
The Islanders of San Jose borrowed the expression from other Islanders to the west of us who, when asked by their missionary guests, 'What is this on my plate?" were far too polite to answer: "Oh, only some missionaries who visited us this morning" Best just to call it long pig, and smile hospitably. As we see many missionaries here, lots of us keep baseball bats beside my door. Things would have been so very different if we'd absorbed more customs from the Ixians. Oh well. Now, off to the session!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
beside the door. To the session.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
Yes I am happy so is tooty and the people we play with are too .
We have fun and dont take things too seriously
Not sure about the Ixian Princess ,they like robots and electronics too much I hear
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Are We Happy?
Anyone who says they are happy all the time is a bloody liar.
But the music can take it. The music is bigger than your own petty foibles.
I went out the other night and I didn't really think I was in any of a different mood than normal, just looking forward to tunes and mates etc. But after an hour or so, the mates were like, "what the feck's wrong with you, you misserable git?" and they were right and I hadn't even realised. I dunno what it was, the wee man had cried for half an hour after he'd gone to bed (teeth), I had a back log of work, I dunno, nothing out of the ordinary really. But my mood was lower than it should have been and I never even realised. So after we'd gone out for a smoke and I'd been told off, I drove into 20 or 30 reels. Cured.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Are We Happy?
"Anyone who says they are happy all the time is a bloody liar."
Aye lad. Well spoken!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
I'm sometimes envious of people that have been around this music all their lives. I'm a very late bloomer and trying hard to catch up. So, I sometimes have to work on my balance as I could overdo if given the opportunity. That's mostly true of my personal time, playing and practicing. When I get to sessions, I always try to just have fun, be polite, respectful and be glad to be part of it. I'd say I'm happier than most of the people I know, and I do agree that it's a decision as much as an attitude.
BTW, what do you say to a cannibal that's depressed at your session? Hey, what's eating you? Or maybe.. Who's eating you? Do you know why cannibals don't eat clowns? They taste funny.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by nofrets
Re: Are We Happy?
might as well be...what are the other choices?
just got back from our session..
shared the new tune I learned from the Comhaltas tutorial, plus shared a new set I learned up...Donegal reel, Sallys Garden, Salamanca...great fun and friends!
what was the question?
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Are We Happy?
"Anyone who says they are happy all the time is a bloody liar."
Dunno about that. I think it depends on timescale. I can remember times in my life when I've been happy - really happy - every single day for years at a stretch. Admittedly, the last time was some while ago. But I'm happy enough of the time. As much as most, I would think.
At mehitabel's age, I was happy every single day.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Are We Happy?
"Anyone who says they are happy all the time is a bloody liar."
Or are being looked after day and night by very nice people.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Are We Happy?
"At mehitabel's age, I was happy every single day."
At mehitabel's age, I was happy about 25% of the time--at best. Which I consider pretty damn fortunate. I'm actually more happy overall 30 years later.
We're not all disposed to be sunny every day, even under the best of circumstances.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
A survival mechanism the lucky have and cultivate is to remember the past through a cloudy filter, one that tends to misse the miserable moments. Depression for some is not being able to do that, where it starts pilling up, backing up, rising above neck level... The best you can do at times is learn to skull, where you float above, like crossing quicksand... If you struggle, well, you just sink deeper. For some folks music works like water wings, gives us something to fall back on when we tire from the struggle to keep afloat...
mehitabel's age ~ hmmmm...? I think it may be a state of mind outside of normal numeration...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
I like that, a new phrase ~ 'pilling up'...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
No one is arguing that people simply can't be happy all the time, only that you CAN control how much you let bad things bother you. Llig busted out 20 reels instead of moping about for the evening. That sounds like healthy therapy to me.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Are We Happy?
Thank you, Llig and GW. Constant happiness is a complete impossibility. Also the concept of it is, in my most humble opinion, fake and wrong. If neuroscientists suddenly came up with a simple, safe operation they could do that makes you totally happy all the time, would you want to have it? OK, so you'd wake up every morning feeling great. But, when you hear news that a close relative has died, you'll just go on being really happy. And when your first child is born, you'll be no more happy than you usually are.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=te6qG4yn-Ps
Which pill would you take?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are We Happy?
Not long ago I read one of those chirpy little paragraphs in a local paper written by a clergyperson. It asked, "Have you counted your blessings?", or "What can you be thankful for in your life?" - that sort of thing. I had a think.
I tend to value myself mainly by what I've achieved or can do, which is not actually that much. Being able to play trad to the level I've got to has been an important part of this, naturally. And painting - floundering for a long time, then - after some crucial help - finding I could produce a telling painting, and, maybe after a lot more floundering, another...not unlike making progress in playing music. But somehow, when I tried to count my blessings, achievement didn't come into it much.
I tried to make a mental list. Roof over my head. Close family still alive. Then it turned to jobs I'd done, volunteer tasks I'd done and times I'd helped people one way or another. These things seemed somehow more solid things to be thankful for than the personal interests / hobbies / achievements which I had sometimes resented them for interrupting. So too did occasions when I was simply at the receiving end of special experiences - a gig or session now and then, memorable hospitality, some beauty of the natural world, that sort of thing.
Maybe I had better get used to the idea that happiness does not lie, at any rate principally, in individualistic achievement - even if it's an ego-boost at the time.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Are We Happy?
"Llig busted out 20 reels instead of moping about for the evening. That sounds like healthy therapy to me."
Yep. I NEVER mope in social situations. No matter what my "mood" is, I always try to bring energy and good vibes into the mix. It's a genetic flaw
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
One thing specific to the music though which I find interesting: I once thought I struggled to play slow when I was not in the best of moods - I thought that it was easier to channel a kind of frustration or anger that goes with a bad mood into ripping into reels. Maybe this is the thing that ceolachan is moaning about?
But now I just feel that I can't play at all if my head is even a little bit miserable. I remember, years ago, enjoying scowling through dark tunes at a fair lick. But I'd play miserable slow tunes also: There's a tune I learned off a Johnny Cunningham record, "Sad is my fate". I remember playing it when my girlfriend dumped me etc etc ... and completely ruining it in a sea of saccharin. I haven't played it for years, but I gave it an outing the other day (don't know why) and I just giggled through all the daft maudlin nonsense of it. It's a lovely tune, a really funny caricature of sadness.
There are no sad tunes, only sad gits.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Are We Happy?
If you're not happy, I have a suggestion for you. Get Netflix. You can instantly watch the movie "Hair." They added it to their instant watch list.
Get to the seen where Berger and his hippie pals crash the wedding party, and he gets up on the enormously-long banquet table, dancing, singing, stepping in the food and breaking half the dishes ...because ..... "He's Got Life."
I love Irtrad, but once in a while I have to take a break to immerse myself in mind-improving culture. Lately, I've found that watching "Hair" has been very elevating......and made me laugh SO MUCH that I just couldn't help being HAPPY.
And oh, the dancing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went back to playing my fiddle with new and improved happiness!
Linda
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Are We Happy?
Yep. It's almost 4AM, our friends are gone after a good dinner at home and seeing Altan at Girona, 50 Km away. Tired but really happy.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Are We Happy?
Why is being happy such a good thing or so important? What's wrong
with being _unhappy_ sometimes? In my former country, the USA,
being happy is considered so important that if people feel their
happiness level is deficient, they go to the doctor and get some drugs
to pump it up. The drug companies and stock market just love that
about Americans.
Also, what's wrong with striving to be a really good musician - a
tortured artist if you like? It's not for all of us, but thank
goodness some people live on the edge and make great art.
(DISCLAIMER: Of course, being clinically, suicidally unhappy is a
)
different story; please go get the drugs.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Hup
Re: Are We Happy?
the music pleases me, playing along even more. sometimes the music is happy and snappy, sometimes contemplative, sometimes sad.
not a bit wrong when you can finish the workday, have a chat with the spouse and kiss the kiddies and then sit down to play some tunes.
perhaps a bit of a session in the evening...if all goes well no one whisks off on a tangent and no politics or struggles,
Just some fine times with some friends and strangers and the music....there's what keep a smile on through the tough times and a grin during the good.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by musketfodder
Re: Are We Happy?
I guess I'm with llig on this. I felt pretty bummed earlier today. Then went to a session, played a bunch of tunes, met some nice people visiting from far away, and went home feeling good.
Now that's therapy.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by mickray
Re: Are We Happy?
For me, this moment is enough.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Are We Happy?
In what way should we be happy?
With my life? If I'd got it just right already, what would be the point in going on trying?
With my work? How can I be until I've achieved everything that I can?
With my playing? Not possible. How can it ever be right if *I* don't think it's good enough?
I think unhappiness is what drives us forward.
I can be truly happy for a moment. But the day when I'm truly happy *permanently* is the day I stop.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Are We Happy?
What is this happy thing, is it like p*ssed?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by mcknowall
Re: Are We Happy?
Moan? Who me?
Eu sou Morpheus. Eu imagino que vocé se sentindo um pouco somo a Alice, entrando pela toca do coelho. Eu vejo nos seus olhos. Vocé tem o olhar de um homem que aceita o que vé porque está esperando acordar. Vou te dizer por que está aqui. Vocé sabe de algo. Mas vocé sente. Vocé deseja saber a que ela é? A nossa volta. É o mundo que foi colocado diante dos seus olhos para que vocé não visse a verdade. Que verdade? Infelizmente, é impossivel dizer… Vocé tem de ver por si mesmo. Esta é sua ultima chance. Depois não há como voltar. Lembre-se…
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Being happy is not necessarily about getting everything "right."
Happiness and contentment may be two different things.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Are We Happy?
Pode 'c' falar o português??
É uma língua que eu não possa falar.
And I bet I put all those accents in the wrong places.
He's retelling the plot of the Matrix, I think...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
Actually he's copying the Portuguese subtitles from the Youtube clip I posted earlier...
So yes...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are We Happy?
"I actually read a report recently that people who do jobs where they have to constantly smile often become severely depressed because of it. I'll see if I can find it....." ~ Joe CSS
I have that type of job Joe. Pizza Hut (front of house). You have to give a welcoming smile to every customer who walks through the doors and to every customer sat eating their pizza!
I hope I don't get depressed...how can I? I'm surrounded by PIZZA
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Are We Happy?
Am I happy? Am I Happy?!?!
I am supposed to be. Got five kids out of college...not totally bankrupt. Still working despite the sucky economy. Paid the mortgage today....and the last car payment. I own the damn thing outright today!
When I was kid, everyone teased me for playing the accordion. When I st arted button box, I was using a stepped keyboard and all the box players teased me about that. Got an nice Irish style box....and the freaking keys stick in the holes.
And when I practice Herself comes in and asks me to cut the lawn/feed the dog/get her a bottle of water...right in the middle of things......
I don't know what happy means. Maybe general level of tolerance for things I can't change?
On the other hand....this morning I woke up and I was standing on the daisies....rather than them growing on top of me.
After that, life's not too bad I guess!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Are We Happy?
I'll look at this from another angle...
ceolachan asked about our happiness while noting that there sure are some surly people in the world and some of them play musical instruments.
Myself, I always try and be benevolent especially to novice players. I had the good fortune to learn from alot of old guys when I was a young sprog, and I see it as my obligation to the art of music to return that favor.
But I also have played with, and actually been good friends with, musicians that were exactly the opposite.
I honestly think some of them were never happier than when they were tearing into some idiot over something or other (and sometimes it was even me on the receiving end!)
but in the end, we all play our personalities once we get command of the instrument. Some people are just happy to be miserable bastards is the only sense I've ever been able to make of it.
.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Are We Happy?
yes im happy........when sexytime
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by mr gavin
Re: Are We Happy?
I also have a very smiley job. But tourists take photos of me and call me their "favourite ice cream girl yes!" which makes me happy.
And mr gavin has a point.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
If any of you should have a wild and strange argument with a Jehova's Witness, have a lovely session to go to afterward.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Wee-e - e Happy?
Playing some tunes you have to be happy.
But ceol this is Irish & you cannot boil it down so simply. Even a wake can be joyous. But at some point the lament begins.
That is what your 1st post was, eh? a lament for players who cannot be happy
Cheers
;)
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Are We Happy?
Wild and strange arguments with Jehovah's Witnesses are FUN! Especially if you're Jewish.
Once I was stopped in the street by a whole family of them, and they started telling me their usual stuff - about the Messiah, repentance, how evil the World is, et cetera - and I think they were put a bit off-balance to find that I knew just as much as them, and was willing and able to argue. I remained very friendly, and said I was perfectly happy with my own religion, thank you very much, and, although they realised they had failed this time, we parted on good terms.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are We Happy?
Yeah, I agree, Joe CSS. Just ignore the dogma, forget the 'Jehovah' label, and have a friendly funny light hearted chat, as humans beings. I really like wild strange arguments...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
"copying the Portuguese" ~ is that what it was?
Mehit ~ It is not the Matrix as we know it... Some selective editing was involved...
"Jehova's Witnesses" ~ My wife won't let me talk to them anymore. All I'll say is that when they went away from here they were in a worse state than when they arrived, and they weren't smiling ~ full of questions and contradictions their simple answers couldn't handle... They wanted to preach and convert. I just wanted to understand, so I listened and asked... They always seem to eventually take us off their route anyway, so my wife really hasn't anything to worry about...
nicholas ~ some of us may just be the butterfly, unaware of the typhoon our fluttering might give seed to...
Random_notes ~ nope! I'm not the happy slappy sort. I love a good wake, in the full spirit of it, giving rise to memories and humour, and letting myself feel tue loss fully as well. I love music because it isn't monochrome, the greys are at near as plentiful as the other shades. I value all the humours. The trick is to always dig the hole in a way that you can eventually pull yourself up and crawl out. The great thing about holes is that you can bury things in them, and it's always a good thing to till the soil anyway... Sometimes it can see damned hard, hopeless. Fortunately for me, music has never left me alone, whatever my mood or predicament. The knowledge of that does make me happy...though I do sometimes get swept away by the emotions of a moment... I also appreciate a good cry... Life like music is not monochrome either...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Not everything is reel...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Lament for the Permanent Lamenters!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are We Happy?
ceolachan, if you sent them away 'not smiling' and 'worse than when they came', that says a lot about you and your ideas...why would you want to diminish people and make them unhappy ? Is that your religion ?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
You are judging again... I only asked questions. Their dissatisfaction was that I didn't just listen and smile back. I wanted to understand the discrepancies in their dogma. But, I shouldn't be talking with you anyway when you're on another crusade to attack this heathen... I DID NOT SAY THEY WENT AWAY UNHAPPY ~ just dissatisfied... My wife is too kind to allow me acts of full disrespect and discourtesy. That is not my way, though it may be for some...
Please, if you can't manage to be civil, at least be sage...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
I 'asked', I did not 'tell'...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Damn, I slipped in the shight again, and I promised myself I'd sidestep any steaming piles... Sadly, I haven't had much sleep lately, allergies taking their toll. So, now I've got the whif, I will start the process of backing up and walking around, and finding someplace ot wash off the stink...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
No I did not club him and then eat him. At the time, I fantasized about reading his pamphlets between mouthfuls. He is alive and unhurt. Later on, at the session, I was put in mind of the crowd who started this music, and their attitudes about strangers (the non-violent ones) and who would, if any thing, have welcomed the opertunity to counter illogic with illogic of their own. Plus, the arival of strangers presented a welcome break from farm work. Tea would be brought out, the price of hay discussed, and maybe the fairy situation. Through their music, they developed an antidote to sadness. Its a powerul tonic and formulated for much more serious matters. Crazy people at the door were as nothing compared to such things, requiring only tea, smoke, and chat. Problem solved.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
Is there a Jehova's Witness protection program?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
ceolachan, what you *wrote* was :
"...I'll say is that when they went away from here they were in a worse state than when they arrived, and they weren't smiling... "
I read that as a triumphalist statement, declaring *your* dominance over those folks who couldn't handle your inferred superior understanding....so, *your* religion is built upon belittling others, in the service of boosting your ego ?
You sure kicked their asses, eh ? Therefore what ? You're a better man than they are ? Your 'truths' are 'truer' ?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
Y'all don't get a lot of eejits ramming their religion down your throat door to door in the wilds of Wales, eh wolfbird?
It's a fairly common situation here. Someone wants to sell you something, a religion in this case. They knock on your door, you invite them in (I sure don't, I don't let salespeople in my house) and then their sales pitch begins. Usually, it's pretty poor. With questionable sales pitches, heck, even with all sales pitches, a wise consumer will ask questions and probe the sales pitch, to determine if the salesperson and the product or service they are offering is really all the sales pitch makes it out to be. Only a foolish consumer doesn't do this, IMHO.
Most religious sales pitches don't handle objections very well, or questions, etc. In real life sales, potential customer objections are a fact of life, and successful salespeople know of and are able to counter every potential customer objection.
Now I have to go back to making juvenile jokes and discussing ‘the music’ before my head explodes. If I wanted to talk about sales I’d go do some work. HA!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are We Happy?
Go to a session, now, the pair of you!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
That goes for you too, SWFL Fiddler!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
10 months of unemployment + terminal bachelorhood = not so happy camper no matter how many reels are played.
Pardon me, I'm in the middle of learning a slip jig on mandolin. "The White Petticoat"
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Are We Happy?
HA! Amen Quigley! Went to a lovely one yesterday, having friends over for tunes tomorrow night. What to do for music tonight? AAA!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are We Happy?
I had the misfortune to live for some years very near the Jehovah's Witnesses' centre in North London. I found, on answering to the door to their calls, that the plain statement 'God has asked me not to talk to you' saw them scurrying away pretty rapidly. I humbly recommend this tactic.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Are We Happy?
You'd be surprised how many, SWFL. Maybe about 10 times a year. I'm not easy to find. Then there's gypsy types wanting to buy scrap, and back packers that get themselves lost., etc. If you don't want to talk, don't let 'em in. Just be firm and polite, 'maybe another time, it's not convenient'. No problem.
If I feel like talking, I'll talk to anybody. I enjoy myself and share the enjoyment. I know the Jehovah's Witnesses feel bound to bring me to their understanding of the Bible. There's no chance of that happening, but that's not the point. There's certain fundamentals that are common to all religions, like kindness, compassion, honesty, etc.
My conception of 'God' is defined as everything, all you'll ever know, all you'll ever experience. It's kinda big and all-encompassing. Too big for any words, too big to be put into any book, including the ancient texts.
It's like Wittgenstein's duckrabbit. Some see a duck, and insist they're right. Some see a rabbit, and insist they're right. But it's a duck and it's a rabbit, both and neither.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
I have a Jehovah's Witness that come by the place from time to time. He's and old fella named Norm. He's ok.
They believe that people should talk to each other about God and life and whatnot. Can't say as I can really disagree with that.
I got past the trying to convert me stuff a few years ago and now he just comes by visit. If Norm brings along another one of the JHs he always tells them right upfront that I'm a Catholic so that they don't start in on converting me.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Are We Happy?
Is he happy? And he's called Norm?
Does that make him a happy medium?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Are We Happy?
<AR> Ermmm, isn't the White Petticoat a jig, not a slip jig? </AR>
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Are We Happy?
what a thread!
happiness, reels, religion, Jehova's Witnesses, and Wittgenstien
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Are We Happy?
But then again, Fishmonger, it is NOT a tonic that works for every constitution, or every situation. That is no failing on your part. Seldom was it ever the solution to peoples' existential problems. Sad to say, it may have been more of an escape than anything else. Having music when one has nothing to eat doesn't suppress that kind of pain. Has it given you no insights though? No sense of who went before?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
"Is he happy? And he's called Norm?
Does that make him a happy medium?"
oh fer chrissakes!
you know they shoot people down in Texas for telling jokes like that
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Are We Happy?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Are We Happy?
Tanks dear Quigley...!
'Confusion' is not necessarily the same as 'unhappy'...
wolf, you love reading things into anything I write ~ to the negative... I can't help that. Obviously you have a problem with me, c'est la vie. ~
"...I'll say is that when they went away from here they were in a worse state than when they arrived, and they weren't smiling... "
A smile doesn't necessarily go with 'bemused' and 'confused'. Let's say they left with 'doubt'. I guess, in their frame of mind, that might mean they were not exactly 'happy'. But I did not treat them rudely, as you have me on several occassions...for whatever reason you have to do so... They left less sure, and for Jehova Witnesses that would be considered an unwanted state, a 'worse state'... Buy hey, you read into it what you want...
Your sad words, quoting back, as proof ~
"You sure kicked their asses, eh ? Therefore what ? You're a better man than they are ? Your 'truths' are 'truer' ?" ~ wolf
No, hardly, as I said several times ~ I asked questions. We talked. And, I seriously wanted to know, and to understand their history, which includes some awful facts, including blatant bigotry and racism, and that's just the mild stuff...
I've just been playing some lovely tunes, so I'm managing to hold back from saying what emotions would like to dish out. I haven't much patience for wolf's BS, and I guess to him, that's all I am. I work hard to turn it over, make sure the worms are healthy, and work toward a reasonable compost out of it all in the end...
Besides, aside from the music, there's all you here making chat, and I've enjoyed following that. It does outweigh the little that chooses to be a personal attack. I've had it from wolf before, but I am a little short op patience today... The music is helping me to recharge that, as is reading what the rest of you have to say, here and elsewhere.
Back to playing some tunes. I'll do my best to reclaim a little balance, maybe some stepping to a bit of lilting as I fix dinner...
"God has asked me not to talk to you!" ~ Good one floss...
Back to the music...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
I used to live near Kingdom Hall in the Central Valley of California, and every Saturday morning Jehovah's Witnesses filled the streets going door-to-door. If you looked out the window it resembled a Magritte painting.
One of them that came to my door was a nice fellow, Dave, who had no teeth despite being a young man, and when I used my standard Jehovah's Witnesses repellent saying that our apartment building is actually The Bozo Foundation -- like Kingdom Hall -- he wanted to know more instead of moving on. We would have long chats where he would tell me something about his faith and I'd make up things about The Bozo Foundation.
Our apartment building was a Bozo Foundation of sorts, (that's what we called it,) and some of the inhabitants, (all crazy musical friends in a 6-unit complex,) had a fascination with world religions. Two of them actually went and lived in the Krishna Temple in SF just to see what it was like.
One Saturday morning Dave showed up at my door accompanied by a very serious looking Jehovah's Witness armed with Bibles and other books, and Dave nervously asked if we could talk. Apparently Dave had been sharing some of the details of our encounters down at the Hall, and it wasn’t considered appropriate. I didn't have anything better to do that morning, so I thought a bit of the old religious debate might be fun. I invited the two fellas who had lived at the Krishna temple down and I acted as moderator in what would be an East vs. West religious debate of sorts.
I should let you know that my neighbor at the time, a brilliant bass player, was using primal therapy dealing with some psychological problems he was suffering with. He had built a small room within his living room that he lined with carpet remnants, and every Saturday morning everyone in the building was used to hearing him howl and scream. It sounded like a far away and spooky scream, but we all supported his self-improvement efforts and adapted with no complaint.
So anyway, here we were in my living room with the two ex-Krishna devotees and the two Jehovah's Witnesses about to commence with our debate. As moderator, I started by asking the two ex-Krishna devotees to state their case. After they finished I asked the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the guy Dave brought with him stood up and opened his Bible, raised his finger and immediately began to attack the ex-Krishna devotees for being "idol worshipers." Just at that moment my next-door neighbor began his primal therapy and let out a blood curdling and hideous scream that sounded like it was coming from deep within the bowels of the Earth beneath the building. My reaction to it was the same as the ex-Krishna devotee's, that is to say, no reaction at all since we were used to it. But none of us said anything or even flinched. The Jehovah's Witness dude froze with his finger in the air and the blood seemed to drain from his face. He glanced nervously at Dave, who appeared petrified, and then he slammed his Bible shut, thanked us for the discussion and said they had many more houses to visit that day and had to be going. With that they scurried away like frightened church mice.
Needless to say, from that moment forward when the Magritte-like streets were filled with people in suits and carrying brief cases, no Jehovah’s Witness ever darkened the door of the Bozo Foundation again.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Am I Happy?
~ not at the moment. Personal attacks have a way of souring ones mood, but I have good music and good company and good friends to help clear that away...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Thanks PB, that's what I needed...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Yup, I dare say you'll get over it, ceolachan.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
As a pig in sh*t.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Are We Happy?
As an Irish Setter in rolling in slurry...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Ahhhhh, music and cider...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
When one of my friends was confronted by either a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon at his door, his response was... "You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe, and I believe my breakfast is getting cold."
I always kinda liked that one.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by nofrets
Re: Are We Happy?
That's fine. Nobody is under any obligation to listen to evangelists.
Nobody is under any obligation to let someone in, unless they have a legally enforceable right of entry.
However, if you do invite someone into your home, as ceolachan did, then, the way I see it, they are your guest.
Most places in the world have a cultural code for hospitality. You treat people who enter your house as guests in a decent fashion.
I've got no particular axe to grind regarding Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or any other group. But if ceolachan had substituted jew or catholic or blacks or irish or gypsies or any similar minority term in his initial description of how he behaved towards Jehovah's Witnesses, there'd be outrage and accusations here. I just find it's hypocritical to set up a thread on being happy, and then describe how you made some people unhappy, and justify it because they are folks who take their religion seriously. I find that rather offensive.
Those people are trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, as they understand them.
Why that makes it okay to despise and abuse them, I don't understand. They don't steal, murder, lie, cheat. If you don't want to hear what they have to say, just tell 'em to go away. To ask them in and then score a few cheap points at their expense is just perverse, imo.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
I didn't start this thread, and I'm not happy all the time, so...
"Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus' death was necessary to atone for the sin brought into the world by the first man, Adam, opening the way for the hope of everlasting life for mankind, and that 144,000 anointed Christians will receive immortal life in heaven as co-rulers with Christ, ruling over the rest of mankind during the Millennial Reign. Witnesses believe that during the imminent war of Armageddon, the wicked will be destroyed, and survivors, along with millions of others who will be resurrected, will form a new earthly society ruled by a heavenly government and have the possibility of living forever in an earthly paradise..."
Wiki, I know, but that's basically why they're at your door. 144,000 seems like an awfully low number, don't you think??. And "imminent Armageddon" just sounds like a real drag. How can they be happy with so much resting on their every action to make the 144k cut? I say when they knock knock, drop your drawers, thumb your nose, and wish them much happiness when the "heavenly government" arrives! But remember, don't let them in because then they are "guests," not solicitors.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
Solicitors,gw ? There are (if memory serves correctly) more than a hundred different agencies (in UK) which are legally entitled to break into your home without your permission. If you resist or object, you're committing an offence.
You think the J W's have cranky ideas. Well, please tell me who hasn't got cranky ideas ?
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
Let me put it this way: any person or group that literally believes in Armageddon has ZERO interest in global warming. Remember that thread?
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by gw
Re: Are We Happy?
Well, global warming is an emotive issue where I'm concerned, and I have discussed it with Jehovah's Witnesses who have called here. I'm always willing to discuss any subject with anybody. I like Voltaire's idea. However much I may hate what some people may say, I'm willing to die for their right to say it. I think freedom of speech and belief is one of the few fundamental rights which are actually worth fighting for.
But I'm certainly not going to defend the particular beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses, because they are not my own.
Same goes for the Mormons, Quakers, Salvation Army, Catholics, Skull and Bones, Crowleyites, Holocaust deniers, Ba'ahis, Sikhs, followers of Gurdjieff, Freemasons, Atheists, Hare Krishnas, etc, etc,....
I don't think this is about what other people believe. It's about how you treat fellow humans. And it's worth remembering that the Nazi's attempt to eradicate all Jews began with propaganda campaigns to ridicule their beliefs and cast them as ridiculous, less than human. Jehovah's Witnesses were likewise shipped to the death camps, along with gypsies, homosexuals, so called mentally retarded, and anybody else not considered socially acceptable by the 'superior' regime and it's supporters.
I don't invite anyone into my home unless I want to. Once they step inside, they're my guest. I like to argue, and I like to have fun. The last few Jehovah's Witnesses I've spoken to were really nice people and we had a good laugh the whole time. I couldn't have wished for more pleasant company. That doesn't mean that we agreed about *anything*....
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
Say, when does the shopping season begin for the happiest day on earth.
(cough, cough)
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Are We Happy?
You must be a hardy and resilient soul, wolf, to be entering into arguments with the JWs, God bless em.
They wore me down in the end. I must have been on a list, because there was a regular parade in pairs at the door asking whether I was interested in "saving the world".
Holy hell!
In the end, I kept an Amway flyer from my letterbox and told them I was indeed interested in saving the world and before they had a chance to elaborate, I held up the Amway flyer saying this is a way enabled by God to indeed "save the world" - and make a lot of money for the church as well, and that they needed to take this flyer.,..take it back to their elders...talk to them...*show* them this gift and how much money they could make to take the good work forward. And besides, the elders might be very unhappy if they didn't come to know about this good message.
They tend to get a horrified look on their face in that situation, as if they are talking to the devil incarnate.
I must have got dropped off the list then. Never received another visit.
Thanks Amway.
Next time I'll just sit there and play tunes for them.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
Well, Duijerah Dubh, I seem to recall extended threads haggling with you over one thing or another, and I didn't notice you lacked stamina.
IMO, Amway is exploitative and pernicious. I think I'd prefer J W's, if I had to choose. At least they have moral scruples.
But I'm not inclined to join any group. I like to know what others think and believe, though, so I've debated with all sorts, Moslems, Scientologists, Divine Light, evangelical Protestants, Jesuits, Humanists, Nihilists, Aryan Supremacists, Theosophists....all sorts.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
I'm just thinking back over encounters with JW's and why I had so much fun...I use Socratic dialogue technique...and I laugh all the time
I ask them why they believe what they believe, and they give the standard reply 'It's written in the Bible', so I say it's just a book, and they say, no, it's the word of God, and I say, but God doesn't write, only people write, and they say, yes, but those people were inspired by God...and so on, until I get to ask whether they, as people are inspired by God, here, now, in the room...it's like nose to nose confrontation with reality...it's fun. What can you do ? We're all just humans. We were born, and we will die. Nobody really knows why we exist or why anything exists. All we do is tell ourselves, and others, stories, to try and make the experience of existing tolerable...May as well laugh as cry, no ?
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
Hey, wolf, you've missed out on catholics and kabbalists on that list.
(I used to have stamina, wolf, but debates on this site tend to knock the stuffing out of that. So I'm semi-retired now.)
Socratic dialogue sounds a lot more circumspect than handing them an Amway flyer. If you want to save time though, just do what I do, and sing this to them:
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
De things dat yo' liable to read in de Bible
It ain't necessarily so
/ Am D Am D / Am D Am - / D7 Eb7 D7 Eb7 / B7 E7 Am - /
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
Dey tell all you chillun de debble's a villain
But 'taint necessarily so
/ F7 Bb - - / Bm7 E7 A6 A7 / D7 - G G6 / B7sus4 B7 D7 - /
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
But who calls dat livin' when no gal'll give in
To no man what's nine hundred years
I'm preachin' dis sermon to show
It ain't nessa, ain't nessa
Ain't nessa, ain't nessa
It ain't necessarily soooooo...
http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/itaintne.htm
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
Then they walk away. Why would they do that?!
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
Well, I have to stay awake for a while yet, although I'd prefer to sleep...that's a great tune, and great lyrics...
Thing is, if I'm not in the mood to talk, I just tell them, and they go away. They always seem to accept that and don't try to push.
If I want to talk, I invite them in. I don't try to change their views to mine. I just treat them the same as any other person I'd invite in.
http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/entries/evil/#RelConGod
I read a great quote from Thoreau, on his death bed.
A priest asked him if he'd like to make peace with God.
Thoreau replied, "I didn't know we had ever quarrelled".
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
I love Jehovah's Witnesses!!
JW: Do you read the Bible?
Mehitabel: yes.
JW: Oh...well, that's good.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are We Happy?
I too am from a similar school of reasoning as mr. wolf. Only I would like to add the remarks of one alan watts, "Religion is not supposed to taken seriously."
And for me, I admire this gentleman with the red hair, white complexion and gin blossomed schnozzle. Made me laugh in my darkest hours and commenced a cartoon from time to time. I bow my head.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/04/content_8490036.htm
now go play a tune you bickersome boobies
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Are We Happy?
You know the Russian Orthodox Church ? It doesn't strike one as being lighthearted or humorous institution, but apparently, prior to the Communist revolution, there was a denomination of Russian orthodox priests who were clowns, and travelled all over that vast country from village to village dressed in clown costumes putting on shows...if I remember, it derived from the Italian Pierot, Harlequin tradition, which also gave us Punch and Judy shows and other circus stuff
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew27029.htm
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are We Happy?
Randy Newman ~ "Political Science"
Giving the planet a second chance...
No one likes us, I don't know why.
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try.
When all around even our old friends put us down,
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.
I was trying to find or remember an apt Bukowski quote for this one, but I didn't find it. Too busy with work and play, playing music, reading Grimm Brothers fairy tales... I just thought I'd poke my head above the parapet. Oh how I'd love to lop a dead and rotting carcass at those damned crusaders...
There are a good share of religious inclinations scattered amongst our families, including the born again, agnostics and aethiests, and a few panthiests too ~ of several different definitions.
Bless the JWs. My experience, first, my wife doesn't let them in the house, second, they are like salesmen with their foot in the door, and sadly, I'm not want to slam it in their face, so we talk, which is what they are wanting. In the end they go away bemused and I still haven't gotten a reasonable answer from the few queries I will have placed. I avoid that now and do as others have suggested, "Sorry, we're not buying anything at the moment." "Dinner's getting cold!" Doesn't seem to work, as they just feel the need to return later. At least, discussion tended to mean they didn't return later. Whatever I say, however, is p*ssin' in the rain as far as Master Wolfbird is concerned...
My wife would say, "Don't bother! It isn't worth it." She's generally right, but I still get myself in trouble... In the case of whatever developed bigotry Master Wolfbird has nurtured with regards to me, yes, she's right, it isn't much use to slap at muck with a cricket bat... It is better to dodge slurry slinging, to avoid it where possible...
At the moment I'm very happy, someone sent me an unexpected 'thank you' and a gift... So while on the one hand my bad karma is wolfbird, which I can choose to avoid, on the other there's good karma and good music to balance things... I've put the cricket bat away for now... I've promised my wife to work on the good karma and finish some projects for her school, music and dance... And, I've also got to prepare for my own classes this week...
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Here's a bit of jolly with a hint of the blues in it too, something I've been having joy playing and thought it would be nice to share it with the rest of you, another lovely single jig ~
"The Ballintore Fancy"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8690
& with few exceptions, thanks for the contributions to this thread, much appreciated...
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Folks is folks, my general welcome and inclination to query is the same for whoever's company I've the pleasure or displeasure of. I can't help being interested in why people think a thing. Wanting to know has gotten me in trouble many times before, but mostly it furthers my understanding. Understanding is something I value very highly.
I don't write folks off for their general inclinations. The only really bad mark either of us in this house have ever really felt was with regards to the treatment of others, when someone else recieves an ufair judgement or is put down. Cruelty falls under that category of things we haven't patience for, and yes, we'd be outspoken about it. Our dislikes are more to do with actions and attitudes, not specifically with an individual or ideology. I must admit, I don't handle well the idea that everybody who doesn't agree with another is doomed to some kind of awful end in a realm some call hell. I don't feel any better about accordion and bodhran players being similarly condemned. So, the subject of who is and who isn't, going there or there, well, when with the born-again family members, we avoid that topic.
Where it's not 'family', well, if there is enough disagreement, it is best to just avoid that person's company where possible.
It seems sad to me that some find their happiness in seeing themselves as the chosen ones with all the answers and everybody else as lost, misguided and damned. At least the JWs are open to conversion...
I still haven't found that Bukowski quote, but enjoyed reading his poem again about poetry readings...
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
The Poetry Reading ~ Charles Bukowski
at high noon
at a small college near the beach
sober
the sweat running down my arms
a spot of sweat on the table
I flatten it with my finger
blood money blood money
my god they must think I love this like the others
but it's for bread and beer and rent
blood money
I'm tense lousy feel bad
poor people I'm failing I'm failing
a woman gets up
walks out
slams the door
a dirty poem
somebody told me not to read dirty poems
here
it's too late.
my eyes can't see some lines
I read it
out-
desperate trembling
lousy
they can't hear my voice
and I say,
I quit, that's it, I'm
finished.
and later in my room
there's scotch and beer:
the blood of a coward.
this then
will be my destiny:
scrabbling for pennies in tiny dark halls
reading poems I have long since beome tired
of.
and I used to think
that men who drove buses
or cleaned out latrines
or murdered men in alleys were
fools.
Yeah, literature, like Bukowski's writings, Roddy Doyle, and many, many others ~ poetry, fiction, ideas ~ make me happy, generally. Amongst one of my lesser known favourites is the poet Han Shan. Bless him. Thanks to all those who took the bother to craft tales and notions and to write them down... Good reads definitely make me happy, and similarly to the music...
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Duijera, you missed out two brilliant verses:
Ol' Jonah he lived in a whale
Ol' Jonah he lived in a whale
Yes, he made his home in that fishes abdomen
Ol' Jonah he lived in a whale
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
He floated on water till ol' Pharaoh's daughter
She fished him - she says! - from that stream...
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are We Happy?
I know, I know, Joe. I only picked the verses I thought might mystify / outrage / disconcert ( in varying order) the JWs at the door, and cause them to retreat in confusion, thinking I was the *debble* alright. It'd probably work I'd say, and maybe less *in your face* than an Amway flyer. I'm a diplomat you know.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
I just profess my belief in the Trinity and point out the difference in John 1:1 in "their" bible. They avoid our house.
To the Mormons, I just say "I'm a Christian."
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Are We Happy?
And, yes, I do uphold their right to express their beliefs. It's not my job to separate the sheep from the goats. It's my job to love my neighbor.
Am I happy? most of the time. Would I trade my lows (via medication) for an even keel, therefore sacrificing my highs? Nope. Sadness is a real feeling.
But, that's just me and I can't speak for anyone else.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Are We Happy?
Ah, it wasn't me with the philosophical nonsense for a change! [whew]
...but since you started, wyogal...
Wither happiness, if no sadness, right? If we were happy all the time, how would we know we were happy without sadness? You can't have one without the other.
...which makes the thought of modern psychology and it's status as a drug dealer for the pharm industry pretty damn funny to me. Happy pills from the man so you can be happy all the time? Danger Will Robinson, danger!
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are We Happy?
Hey, better still, I think next time for the JWs, I'll just hold up a copy of "Escape from the Watchtower" with an offer of purchase with an easy instalment plan, while singing Ain't necessarily So. (I can put the Amway flyer on the inside cover, and tell them they have that responsibility to God and their Elders to make the good news of this revenue source available to mankind.) Double whammy! Then I could talk about the Trinity like wyo. Wow what a day for them!
Thanks all.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
Escape from the Watchtower...
http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/AwakeningJW.htm
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
Then I could do a bodhran solo for them at the door.
Yeah, that should do the trick.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Are We Happy?
If they really persist at bothering you, give them an empty bucket, and send them out over the feilds to get water for tea.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
OH SWEET JESUS! FIELDS!
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
Atahualpa, what, no spell checker?
I liked the comic books, much better than their bible for a quick read and entertainment value... I don't know if they still have them or not. I visited one of their schools as and got to see the literature they've developed for children, all ages. But while having a passion for reading, loving print and pictures, I'll take living discourse any day over the black and white... Hearing the passions of others usually gives me pleasure, makes my happy. I also feel good when I find I can help others. My favourite jobs have been those where the payment was not focused on the monetary, often lacking it completely, even being 'out-of-pocket' ~ that includes the backwoods dances and celebrations we've been blessed to be party to, in good company, great craic...
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by ceolachan
I still haven't found that Bukowski bit of writing. I'm sure I remember something about Jehova's Witnesses? Or was it him?
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
This is still going on?
When we have the Witnesses come to the door, I am cordial as can be...Herself's St. Bernard stands next to me demonstrating his unwillingness to consider conversion! Usually convinces them to move on to more productive venues.
I did like the Thoreau quote someone made. I will have to remember that for when I need a joke that doesn't involve burning, stomping, slicing or taping (duct taping that is) a particular instument, doesn't insult a particular ethnic or religious group, doesn't use off color or obscene language, doesn't refer to female body parts, or flatulence.
Of course that eliminates 99.99999% of most jokes
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Are We Happy?
Sorry Mr. C, I'm slacking, I love me some Bukowski. Check out the second quote.
For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state and our education system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.
-- Charles Bukowski, Life magazine, December 1988, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief
The whole LSD, STP, marijuana, heroin, hashish, prescription cough medicine crowd suffers from the "Watchtower" itch: you gotta be with us, man, or you're out, you're dead. This pitch is a continual and seeming MUST with those who use the stuff. It's no wonder they keep getting busted.
-- Charles Bukowski, comparing drug addiction with being a Jehovah's Witness, in Tales of Ordinary Madness, "The Big Pot Game" (1967), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are We Happy?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Bad day today, I did an awful job teaching, but at least most were laughing when the evening drew to a close... Lost sleep definitely has me semi-conscious...
That's not the quote I was half remembering, at least I don't think so, but the comparisons some have made between drugs, addiction and religion do interest me... I love Bukowski's rawness... It is much preferred to those who readily judge others and even have the cruel tendency to freely condemn others to damnation, hell... I wouldn't wish a slow and painful cancer rotting death on anyone, let alone that they suffer an eternity in some fantasy of pergatory... I just can't concieve that. The illnesses that plague out kind, in heart and mind, are, from my experience, the result of deep festering wounds... I understand the need for jails, but not for a vengeful god or gods, or a hell...
I do like that Larson cartoon though, "Here's your piano accordion, welcome to hell!"
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
i would much rather play my accordion in hell than spend eternity in church. ;0(
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Are We Happy?
Perhaps Hell is a place prepared for a merciful God for those who have lived corrupt lives, abused children, wives, the poor and helpless etc because they couldn't stand to be in the presence of a good, pure and loving God knowing their guilt. Perhaps the "flames" are the manifestation of extreme quilt on the conscience.
Avoid the the strawman, or the "strawgod" that is so easily dismissed. Of course, unless you have predetermined to dismiss Him.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Are We Happy?
DisMiss-ed
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Are We Happy?
'Schadenfreude' heir wolf?
To make a prairie it takes a clover and one bee ~
One clover, and a bee,
And revery.
The revery alone will do
If bees are few...
Emil Dickinson ~ another favourite writer, as too is Sylvia Plath who struggled with the concepts of happiness...
One cry, and I stumble from bed, cow-heavy and floral
In my Victorian nightgown.
Your mouth opens clean as a cat's. The window square
Whitens and swallows its dull stars. And now you try
Your handful of notes;
The clear vowels rise like balloons.
19 February 1961 ~ "Morning Song"
Even through clouds I have never imagined stars to be 'dull'...
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Mariska and Ceolachen
You are entering my turf! That Larson cartoon is my icon on a number of other web sites I participate in from time to time. Larson and Dennis the Menace. Two cartoons that reflect my personality.
On Church, I joke with my teacher about that. My musical doppleganger is as a church musician. My box teacher also plays from time to time at an Irish church. He and I joke that we are creating a new liturgical music expression using the Button Box.
Does perverse pleasure count in being happy?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Are We Happy?
Two of the finest memories I have as far as church going, was high mass in Newfoundland and Holly Rollers in the SE USA... I loved both... I got high off of both...
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
~ and I love Gary Larson cartoons and similarly bent things... Pigs can fly!!!
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Are We Happy?
Whenever Jehovah's Witnesses would come by, I would tell them that I am a member of a church and have been attending services at this church regularly for several years. I would tell them which church and they would go away and leave me alone. We haven't been visited by any Jehovah's Witnesses for a few years now (whenever I think of these people, I have to avoid the temptation to refer to them as Jehovah's Witlesses).
As for whether or not I am happy, I am usually happiest or most content when I am playing music.
As for my day job, since I work in a hospital as clerical support staff helping the doctors and nurses take care of the patients, I feel as if I am doing something useful because I am helping take care of sick people.
Have any of you ever heard the joke, "If God designed me in His own image, then He must have a goofy sense of humor."?
When my father (who is an agnotiscal atheist and/or an atheistical agnostic or something similar) asked why I joined a church and attend the services there regularly, I told him that he had always tried to encourage me to learn how to think for myself and this was one of the results. Since then, my father hasn't asked me any more questions about my religious beliefs.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Are We Happy?
Herself bought me a Caldecott winner kids book about pigs flying...
I suppose it was in reponse to what I would tell her every time she wanted to take a long expensive vacation somewhere.
As far as the witnesses go, I am at the point that I just say 'No habla Ingles" when approached. Works on fundraisers for the national Republican party (the current cabal wreaking havoc In Washington DC) equally as well.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Are We Happy?
Now there's an idea.....maybe I could use some of my painfully acquired French to discourage any Jehovah's Witnesses who come by the house.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Are We Happy?
Now that all of the uplifting spirituality has evaporated in the heat of the scorching sun, the big temptation is to to go out to the front door, and put the bone bundles back up on their pegs.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are We Happy?
"Happy, happy, joy, joy" (to quote Ren & Stimpy)
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Are We Happy?
Bone bundles, pelts and shrunken heads?! That's an idea, I was trying to figure out a way to air that stuff out. Thanks Atahualpa Quigley...
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by ceolachan