The Session >> Discussions >> For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
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For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
The flute is in Ireland with me. Six silver keys, silver rings and tuning slide. It is about four years old. It is a concert (D) flute. It is like new. It comes in a custom-fit kidskin leather-covered Northwind case.
It is in perfect tune and it is a glorious player. It has some custom features. I am asking 5,200 Euros for the flute. There is about a six-year wait list for this flute.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Cocus... is five years really worth the difference between $3,100 and £5,200? You're talking about charging $5,061 for not having to wait. That's around $2000 more than the actual price of the flute from Olwell plus the price of the flute itself; $2000 more than twice the price. Or, it's like selling 1 flute for the price of 2 flutes and adding $2000.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
It's like those hand-made Morgan cars, the waiting list is so long that the car gains in value as you drive it out of the works ( unlike a normal new vehicle, where it looses 17.5% as you drive it out of the dealer ).
Surely, if you actually want one of these you are on the waiting list already ?
And people were suggesting that the rising price of fuel was limiting their trips to out-of-the-way sessions - obviously some people might still have some substantial free disposable income.
I would be interested to know the outcome of this advertisement - rumour has it that people are having to substantially drop the asking price on pieces of property - does this include woodwind ?
Regarding price; Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute
Dear Phantom Button, et al,
It's a lot of money, no question. But six-key Olwell flutes seldom appear on the market- at any price. There is no place you can buy a keyed Olwell for $3,100. And not with a Northwind case (www.northwindcases.com) and certainly not with custom keys (right-hand Bb touch). So while it might not be an antique and have vintage value, it is as nearly impossible to find one immediately available as a set of Geoff Wooff pipes. Geoff has a wait list of around fifteen years. A full set of his pipes on the used market would bring over €10,000.
I bought this flute for not much less than I am asking for it. In six years (or ten) the price I am asking will not seem very high compared to the price at that future date. It might or might not be worth it to a player to have the flute to play during that time and to pay a premium for having it available.
If the flute sells at my asking price I will be making about 10% over what I paid for the flute. I sold the last keyed Olwell for €5,000 and the buyer was delighted to buy it. Hardly price-gouging. I would also point out that an Olwell flute is not a basic necessity. Anymore than an old Jeffries or Wheatstone of comparable quality, which would sell for much more than this flute.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Hey, these things are worth that much. So don't bother complaining everyone.
What I don't understand is why Mr Olwell and Morgan both seem to make a basic principle out of giving away money to other people. Effectively that is what happens when Morgan sells a car for X and the new owner can immediately sell it for Y. Why doesn't the maker sell it directly for Y? The market is king after all. And the work of both Morgan and Pat Olwell seems to be worth that extra money.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Olwell doesn't want the market to be king. He doesn't want to sell the most expensive flute on the market. There are makers charging more for their flutes than Patrick charges, even though their flutes are arguably not as good. Patrick accepts that he'll never be rich. But knowing that he is making truly wonderful flutes that are affordable -- and making a decent living at the same time -- is enough for him.
He will not knowingly sell a flute to a person who intends to resell that flute. Nor will he sell to a person who has in the past sold a flute bought with that purpose in mind. He wants his flutes to be in the hands of players, not collectors or shopkeepers.
Fair play to Olwell.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
mmmmn, I see cocus. Looking at the line " with that purpose in mind", I would suggest that for someone who doesn't have "that purpose in mind", you seem to sell a lot of instruments- both flutes and concertinas ! Or does it just seem that way?
I love to try different instruments. I also want to play them for more than just a few minutes at a time. I want to get to know them really well. Yes, I have bought and sold a lot of instruments over the years. I can't afford to keep all the instruments that I buy and I don't make a profit on every one that I sell.
But I don't buy a new instrument from a maker with the idea of selling it once I have it- nor do I get on a maker's list in order to make a profit on a new instrument. I keep my eye out for good used instruments and that is what I sell.
The last keyed Olwell I sold was vetted by Matt Molloy at €5,000. As I said, the buyer was delighted to find it. This one has the added advantage of being a four-piece Pratten model -- with a center section in two pieces rather than the single-piece center section -- which is very unusual and not an option that Patrick offers.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
So tempted, but definitely don't have the money. :( I've been playing a keyless Olwell for the past three years, but sadly it belongs to my flute teacher in Wyoming, and I had to give it up when I left the country after graduation... Would love an Olwell though, but that'll have to be after I get a job and can afford to put money aside and all that. Had some classes with June McCormack last summer, and she plays Olwell as well: She makes them sound so amazing!
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"He will not knowingly sell a flute to a person who intends to resell that flute. Nor will he sell to a person who has in the past sold a flute bought with that purpose in mind. He wants his flutes to be in the hands of players, not collectors or shopkeepers. "
But isn't that what happens when the flute is sold for the highest price? If the maker want's players to afford his flutes, then players become out of reach unless they're someone like Matt Molloy.
The same thing happens with concertinas: the market drives the price out of reach. There are people (speculators) who get in line for these instruments and then turn around and sell them for top dollar. This in effect undermines the maker's efforts to get instruments into the hands of players who aren't wealthy.
I ordered a fully-keyed Olwell flute in 1996 and last year I contacted Olwell to see if he had one yet. He offered me the very next one. In the 10 years while I waited I bought a Grinter flute, but I always wondered if I would have liked the Olwell better. A friend of mine, who's a lovely player, wanted an Olwell flute but didn't want to wait 10 years, and she didn't have the money for a speculator's flute, so I made an arrangement to have her buy the Olwell and I would get to play both for a week or so and see which one I preferred. At the end of that time she would get either the Grinter or the Olwell. It turns out I was used to the Grinter and the Olwell didn't strike me as being that much different since I was accustomed to the Rudall & Rose style. Now she has the flute of her dreams that she could both afford and didn't have to wait for. That's one way to help get the flutes into the hands of players who deserve them... it's called "win win."
I suppose I could have bought the flute and then after a while sell it for two and a half times the price, but the extra money I made would have represented a failure on my part. Just my own opinion. I don't want to be part of what's driving the price of these things through the roof.
A little bit of nastiness there, PB? As I said,the flute's available at a lower price. You just have to wait. So is your complaint that too many people want an Olwell flute and that the wait list is too long? Tough.
Even if I sold the flute for what a new one would go for – and significantly less than I paid for this one – used Olwells would still be pricey. It’s called supply and demand.
If you want one then you either have to wait or pay the premium for immediate delivery. Same with concertinas. No instrument maker, and no instrument trader, is going to get rich from dealing in instruments on our level. Your passing up a profit on an Olwell flute is your choice, and publicizing that choice is just tooting your own horn. Personal witness, perhaps. No cause for applause, at least not from this quarter.
I don’t see how my selling a used flute represents “a failure on my part” any more than your driving a car uses up nonrenewable resources.
Go tilt your lance at somebody else.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"There are people (speculators) who get in line for these instruments and then turn around and sell them for top dollar. This in effect undermines the maker's efforts to get instruments into the hands of players who aren't wealthy."
As I said, this is not me. And I really don't know anybody who does this. Certainly not the most well-known dealers. And it can only be done once, if then. Makers know who these people are.
Prices are driven up by legitimate players willing to line up and wait for a good instrument, or who are willing to pay the price for immediate delivery. Perhaps things don't work that way in Utopia but I don't know anybody who lives there. Do you?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I'm not being "nasty," I'm just raising what I think is a valid point. It's nothing against you personally, David -- I'm questioning the practice. I'm not suggesting you have to do anything different, I'm raising a point that I think merits a discussion. This is after all a discussion board is it not? I'm hoping others who have been frustrated by this might chime in with their ideas. No harm intended.
Sorry, cocus, but unless you're running a music trading business for your living, I tend to side with PB. At least on the general principle.
These instruments although in theory market commodities and thus subject to market drivers, really should not be profited from. It's bad enough - for those players who have the skill to be worthy of such great instruments - that the waiting list is so long. ( Of course, that's no fault of the makers, that's just life).
But for the price then to leap BECAUSE OF these long waiting periods, through several multiple re-sales, to a level beyond the reach of most, is doubly sad.
I scored a really good 1958 Selmer centred-tone clarinet very cheaply a number of years ago. I got it cheaply from a jazz buff, who himself had been the beneficiary of a huge gesture from an American pro. he passed on his lucky break to me.
When I then stopped playing clarinet a few years ago ( itself a big mistake) I sold it to a mate who was going to make much better use of it than me, and at the same very low price.
Like PB, I'm not really blowing my own "clari", I just thought that was the right thing to do. Maybe cocus bought the Olwell at an already inflated price, and so is just getting his money back. But a shame that it has come to that.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
What does this: "unless you're running a music trading business for your living" have to do with it? If you say you're out to make a buck it's ok? But if you don't say that, then it's not ok?
I'll be happy to sell the flute for what I paid for it to a player. I bought it at a high price to keep it in the hands of a player rather than to see it neither played nor sold on.
Both PB and flutador sold the instrument to friends rather than on the open market. That's what the first seller did to me and I'll gladly do the same. But I don't that's necessarily praiseworthy.
There are plenty of good instruments available for a lot less money than this Olwell flute. You don't need an Olwell to make good music. There is a long wait list for an Olwell. There isn't for most other makers. Is this a big problem? I don't think so. We're not talking about being unable to afford bread and potatoes here. A flute on this level is a luxury item. People can't afford it? Too bad. Ain't my fault. It's a fact of the market.
Do you feel that way about Rudalls that are comparably priced?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
All good and well, but anyone selling something significantly below its' market price has to be aware that they are effectively donating a portion of the item's value to the recipient.
This is fine if you have high moral grounds for doing so, but really, would you feel the same if you actually did the sums and thought that what you are actually saying is: "Here is an Olwell flute plus a 2000Euro credit note to be cashed in when you sell the flute." Whether that owner or the next one or the one ofter that cashes in your 2000 Euros or not is not relevant to you.
I would rather that the makers of these instruments set their prices to a reasonable level so that THEY are the ones who get the extra money. I really can't see anyone else having a better claim to this profit than they do. Maybe it is macho to have a waiting list of heroic proprtions but it doesn't really make life easier for anyone.
Nobody is shy about setting the price of e.g. a violin, to be what it should be. Why are flutes and concertinas different. Why can't the makers harvest the proceeds of their hard work and skill?
These instruments are not "in theory market commodities" - they are IN FACT market commodities. Denying it won't change it.
In the classical world there is already a separation between ownership of instruments and usage. E.g. owners of valuable violins that then lend them to top players to use. Would something like this not solve the problem addressed above? And keep everyone happy.
I personally would have severe problems parting from any of my instruments for any amount of money, so the issue doesn't affect me (unless I get seriously poor?).
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
The situation with rare old violins is an anomaly. Where else in the world of instruments does one encounter the valuations of a Strad-or other "name brands" --which start at a million dollars or so and rapidly escalate. They are great violins but rarity is the major reason for these crazy valuations--a "playable" violin--like a "playable" flute can be had for reasonable sum. Of course, the player makes all the difference and a really good player can make an average instrument sound amazing.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Last year, I managed to get a brand new unplayed Suttner concertina, without having to do the four year waiting list.I was in the "right place at the right time". However being in the "right place at the right time" involved paying quite a high ( relative to the cost of the instrument) mark up and as Cocus mentioned, I was willing and thankfully able, to pay this money in return for the comfort of not waiting four years. It did bring up the whole thing of having money versus not and the truth, is I got a concertina before someone else who had been waiting quite a while- only because I had the money to. (When this translates into health care it takes on a whole different perspective). But there was no misunderstanding, no illusions as to what was going on. He was looking to make money, in it for a profit,I was looking to get an instrument- no one was being forced to do anything that they didn't want to. Deal done. But there was no talk of lofty notions. And so I can have no high moral ground on someone buying and selling instruments for profit- he made a lot of money and I saved four years. We were both being honest. And this is where I get lost, reading the above.
I would prefer Cocus if you say it as you do it i.e. you buy and you sell instruments to make a profit. Yes, you might like doing it, yes you might like playing the instruments until you sell them, maybe there are a lot of perks, but the bottom line is that you are in it for money and if you are placed in the category of people who drive up the price of instruments, you can have no complaints. All this talk of what Patrick Olwell does and doesn't, apart from being totally irrelevant to this situation; this talk of you really wanting to get to know the instruments, is a bit disengenous. You say "I bought it at a high price to keep it in the hands of a player rather than to see it neither played nor sold on". Do you know, that stinks to high heavens !! You paid approx €4600 or the equivalent because you knew you could make a profit on a Partick Olwell flute. And as this is your second Olwell flute to sell, I think we can take it that you are not paying the money to jump the queue or because you are desperate to play an Olwell. You certainly didn't pay that money out of some high altruistic reason. You are in it for the money and that's fine. I have no dog in this fight but please don't give me the high moral ground of how dealers like yourself don't make big money, or will only get away with a high mark up once !!
The extent that you are in it for the money could be seen
some time back, where you were looking for someone to bring a concertina in to Ireland from the States for you. You offered a slap up- meal and a warm bed in return. You assured the would be carrier that customs at Shannon was not an issue. So what you were asking in effect was that somone would smuggle something in for you, you would avoid the tax and vat etc and in return you would give them a meal. The word "mule" comes to mind. So by all means buy and sell to your heart's content, do what you have to to justify your actions, but please be up front about it and accept that you will be in the category of those who are "driving up the price" and actuallly maybe be disliked !
The curious thing of course is how did such an apparently great flute get to go from $3100(or less seeing it's four year old) to €4600 or $7200? Either loads of people sold it on at 10% profit each time ,which begs the question as to why such a great instrument keeps getting sold on, or someone along the way is making or has made big money !
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think it is a fascinating ethical question, and I'm delighted to see people thinking about it here.
Usually, our lives are so dominated and exploited by totalitarian capitalism and all the propaganda from the Thatcher-Reganite Milton Friedman era, 'greed is good', 'trickle down', 'everything has a price', all that stuff is indoctrinated into us. Every day we are pressured to part with money by all kinds of hard sell advertising tricks.
Many years ago, I asked a wise old farmer about this sort of dilemma. To live, to continue farming, it's essential to make some profitable margin on deals. If you were to give the animals or crops away, because there are starving people, then you'd soon be destitute and starving yourself. This man had pondered all these issues for decades. Is there such a thing as a 'fair' price ?
I asked him what he'd do if he had, say, a cow or horse, with some fault, gave no milk or prone to lameness. He said he'd have to sell it. But if he sold it to a friend, acquaintance, or neighbour, he'd have to be honest and open about the fault.
He would even accept a loss, if he thought he was helping someone who needed help.
But if he took it to the market, he'd say nothing. He'd go for the highest price he could get, even considering someone would be getting a dud.
His rationale was, that at the market, everyone has a fair chance to exercise their judgement. If they get fooled or ripped off, it's by way of their own choice. Part of the skill and pride of being a farmer was to appraise the animals and the risks.
My conclusion might be, that if someone wanted to sell to get the highest price, they should sell somewhere like e-bay, because this site is more like the farmer's local friends and neighbours...
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"...if someone wanted to sell to get the highest price, they should sell somewhere like e-bay, because this site is more like the farmer's local friends and neighbours..."
You can bet on it that next time I will offer an instrument on EBay rather than here. It will bring more money and less grief. That said, I have an offer outstanding on the flute. To a player.
We have local friends and neighbors in rural North Clare. People on a forum are hardly friends and neighbors. They are only internet acquaintances. The sad truth is that people mistake the net for real life. Friends and neighbors have faces. Not user names.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Wouldn't it be great if, on the other hand, Patrick and these other great instrument makers took on a few apprentices to learn the trade. They could acquire the skill of using the lathe, reaming out, key making etc and then Patrick could put his seal of approval on the final instrument. Just as George Lowden did with guitars. That way there would not be a 10+ year waiting list and everyone would be the happier!
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sven, no one's getting "grief." This is a discussion board about Irish trad and this is an issue that a lot of us who play trad are frustrated with. It's nothing personal against David, I only wanted to raise the issue so we could discuss it. We talk on other discussion boards about political and economic issues and how market forces influence them. This discussion is similar but sans the politics. The question I was hoping to raise is regarding the astronomical inflated price of instruments after they leave the hands of the makers. If you have any opinions about this to share I'd be very interested, but I don't think we need to be chastised for raising the issue.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Cocus has done something perfectly legitimate. He has said that he has an instrument on offer, he has stated his price and people are free to make him offers or not. For f- sake if you don't want to offer then leave him be. I recall a similar thread where someone moaned about the asking price of an antique R&R in playable condition - these things really ARE worth that much.
The strange thing to me is that some makers are willing to undervalue their own work. And also that some makers command a far higher premium than others - but market value has always been about perception and there is no question that a fully keyed Olwell is a desirable flute. Good luck to you cocus with selling it.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack,
I did not mean to chastise rather than to defend. I felt David was being accused of being disingenious and a profiteer and he certainly seemed to indicate he felt he was getting grief. I think a discussion on the subject is totally fine, I would, however, suggest to make a discussion a seperate thread in the future, as this whole discussion may be distracting to the seller and his efforts. He, I assume, certainly just wanted to advertise his instrument not get into a position of having to defend his selling price.
On the now apparent subject I would offer the following thoughts based on my own experience and to clarify to others who don't know me I've bought and sold multiple old Rudalls, Prattens, new Grinters, Wilkes', Olwells, etc..
Not a single one of these was bought to make a profit or sold to make a profit.
I think most players would acknlowedge that most of us have different playing characteristics and different instruments suit us better than others. It is also true that no one instrument even by the same maker is exactly the same they are handmade after all.
It is also true that none of us can walk into a store and try multiple flutes by different makers at one time and make an honest comparison. I would even go so far, that is not even possible as yourself indicated you wanted to compare your 2 flutes for a week. It is not an easy process especially if multiple high caliber instruments are involved.
The exception to this is meeting a maker or collector who has many different instruments in one location.
So this means trial and error, taking chances, evaluating, etc. Since most of us don't have an unlimited budget that means you often sell an instrument in order to fund another.
markets change, often very quickly. Believe it or not the seller is not driving the price, he may set the price but he's doing that by making a judgement call as to where the market is at. Ebay is an easy public yardstick because this is where buyers often determine the final price.
The price of a flute is determined by the financial pain a buyer is willing to endure in order to get his hands on a product available in extremely limited supply.
That level of pain varied from person to person and quite frankly it is no pain to some as the makret price may be well within their means. So then it comes down to 2 issues:
1. Economic discrepancy between buyers
2. Limited output by the makers
Neither one of which anyone has any control over. We are dealing with a niche product. If it were different a well financed firm would hire and train a bunch of guys and cranck out thousands of flutes per year.
I think there is nothing wrong with asking a market price, nobody is forced into the transaction, and the seller is not creating the conditions that drive the price.
I agree it is a frustrating reality, but it is not David's or anyone else's fault.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I understand what you're saying, Sven, but you left one issue out:
3. Personal choice
I'll just say I'm glad there are people who seek out and help deserving musicians who would otherwise never be able to afford such instruments. Of course it isn't David or anyone else's "fault" but we are all participating in this market when we buy or sell an instrument.
Again, I'm not criticizing David personally, but it's interesting to juxtapose this discussion with other discussions on other boards about who's responsible for the rising price of petrol.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
There is a big and fundamental difference though. The market of flutes is an open and free market, anyone can start production if they so choose.
The market of oil is not an open and free market. Opec, for example, is a cartel which controls output. The supply side market of oil is also controlled by governments not individuals.
True ,demand is a big driver of price there as well, but the supply side is quite a different picture. In addition demand is driven largely by necessity, whereas, flutes, as David pointed out correctly, are not a necessity.
The side effect of affordability is a valid argument only to the extent it pertains to the time a player is willing to wait. Anyone can order a flute from Patrick at the standard retail price. No such chance with oil.
We are only talking about higher prices for flutes because people want a chance to skip the waiting period. This chance only offers itself up if an owenr of one of the flutes becomes available.
So one could argue that there is no price inflation on flutes at all, only to those people who would like a flute by a maker quicker than the official market allows. And that is a personal choice as you stated as the third issue. And as stated, nobody is forced to make that choice.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think that there is a difference between buying an instrument because you want to play a different /better one and then in turn selling that to buy a different/better one, buying an instrument and finding that for various reasons you don't want/ like it anymore etc and selling it and that of buying an instrument with no other motive than to sell it on at a profit. Sure, it's not illegal, It's not even immoral I'm sure but you if this is what you do, then you must accept that you naturally will be pushing up the price. Until such time if ever that the market takes a huge reversal obviously.
In my experience, people who buy with no other agenda than to sell on, have a totally different relationship with their instruments and if they play, the act of playing can take second place to the art of making a profit, whereas most musicians I know tend to reflect Keith Richards belief that to really know your instrument you need to sleep with it ! I have seen one guy in a session, willing there and then to sell the very instrument he was playing ! For me, I couldn't imagine leaving myself without an instrument in the middle of a session. But for him, it was all about the money and not the tunes.
I have no problem with anyone buying and selling to make a profit- dealers are needed when we want a new instrument and despised when we don't- but let the person be clear about it rather than giving it all that about higher motives for buying and selling.
I think Jack's original point was a valid one- the price difference was huge and a bit vulgar.David said that he would only make 10%; I am curious to know who made all the money ?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
There have been several keyed Olwell flute transactions in the past 12-18 months I know of that have been at minimum $6,000 and even higher. That's the market, it is what it is. David himself indicated he sold one for 5,000 Euros. It may seem vulgar to you, but that is your personal sensibility, that does not mean that it is vulgar to others. So i'm not sure what the point is, especially considering that flutes by Grinter and Morvan, for example, are already selling at 4,000 Euros plus from the makers themselves. Some people don't want to wait 6-10 years and I understand that.
Not for me to say who made money and who didn't. I'm not even sure that it is anybody's business, these are private party transactions.
Who cares?
I'll give you a simple example. A guy owns a flute from any given maker. He paid $3,000 dollars for it. He likes it, he gets his hand on another flute, he likes that one better. Some other guy sees his original flute and offers him $6,000 to buy it. Is he supposed to say no, and say i only want $3,000 for it, sorry but that's just crazy. So the first guy made 3K, good for him. The other guy got a flute he really liked, good for him. So why suggest conspiracy? Sorry i find that silly.
So then the reality is the 2nd guy really likes that flute plays it for a year and then he comes across another flute he likes even better. what is he supposed to do sell the flute for 3K when someone now offers him 6,500? No, he'll take the 6,500 simple as that. It's just the way the world works.
A different scenario would be if a guy orders 10 flutes from some maker and immediately sells them at a huge profit, but even that's fine if the maker and buyer had a wholsale arrangement.
Sorry guys, but i find the entire subject a bit artificial. I know you are upset about high prices but i think you are misjduging the reasons for the high prices: More demand than timely supply. Simple as that.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Thats ok, Sven, you don't need to lecture us on the mechanics of greed; I think everyone is all too familiar with that. We each have to determine for ourselves where to draw the line and how to justify our own transactions. I'm not making a judgement on people who are buying and selling these instruments, but I do think it's a frustrating situation for anyone who hopes to ever be able to own a decent instrument.
When you go to the makers you see what they charge for their instruments, but you're discouraged by the waiting period. Then you see the same instrument for sale and realize that the waiting period itself is about one and a half times more expensive than the flute. But that's my point -- it's frustrating and discouraging. As I said, I'm not suggesting anyone do anything different -- I'm merely expressing my frustration and I was hoping for a discussion and people might think about it a bit. No harm intended.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
So, in sum, if you know a particularly deserving musician unable to afford a good instrument and you happen to have acquired an instrument at a good price and are willing and able to afford to sell it at a discount to the market price, then go ahead and act accordingly. People pay a premium for all kinds of crazy things and I imagine crocus will find a buyer eager to buy his flute. Good luck!
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack i did not lecture anyone on the mechanics of greed, i just gave a description of the workings of some flute transactions in an attempt to explain how these prices come about. If you want to call it a lecture on the mechanics of greed so be it, i don't think that's what it is. I'm just giving you my perspective.
I do agree it is a frustrating situation and i'd rather pay less myself.
On the other hand, I personally think some of the craftmanship we've come to see from some makers is so superb and knowing how long it takes them to produce one fully keyed flute I actually think the prices they charge are too low!
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Interesting... very encouraging for anyone hoping to buy an instrument. I thank my lucky stars I was able to buy my instruments before their value was realized. Now I feel like I robbed the people I bought them from. I pity anyone who isn't rich who wants to get their hands on an instrument they deserve. All of you that have a sizable disposable income -- congrats!
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack,
I really do not understand your sarcasm here. I don't know what you paid for your Grinter, you indicated you've had it for years while you waited, but I suspect you paid a lot less for it then Mike charges today.
If you were to sell it today what price would you charge? The price you paid for it? Be honest.
And of course the alternative then is for the flute makers to ask a lot less for their flutes and increase their work hours to 18 hour days so they can crank out more flutes. The demand would be satisfied and everyone who "isn't rich" can get their hands on an instrument they deserve.
Jack there are people today who can't afford a keyed Grinter, Olwell, even at the retail prices these makers charge. So your stated desire that "anyone who isn't rich...to get their hands on an instrument they deserve" isn't even compatible with current reality.
And maybe we need to make it more specific.
What Jack, do you think, is the appropriate hourly wage a flute maker deserves to earn in making a flute?
Minimum wage? Less? More? $10/hour, 20? 30? Make it specific please.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think the flute makers are perfectly capable of determining what their time and flutes are worth. I was happy to pay Grinter what he asked. I already explained what happens if I come into possession of a flute that I can't keep, and a very good flute player I know has apparently saved $5,000 on her $3100 Olwell flute that I sold her. She could never have afforded it otherwise.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Hypothetically, if she were to sell her flute at some point for a profit would you expect a share? Is that a reasonable expectation given that you made nothing on the transaction? Would it even be ethical for her to sell at a profit ? Or perhaps you have an agreement that the flute must be sold to another player at the original cost?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"We have local friends and neighbors in rural North Clare. People on a forum are hardly friends and neighbors. They are only internet acquaintances. The sad truth is that people mistake the net for real life. Friends and neighbors have faces. Not user names."
I don't have answers, cocus. But for millions of people the old world of friends and neighbours has gone...to quote from
"A new untellable world is unfolding. As the human race accelerates into the twenty-first century, we enter a virtual, digital environment, a world where far and near, past, present and future are simultaneous realities. The human center of gravity seems to be blasted into the void. Our bodies are less central to our lives, our physical involvement with an increasing synthetic world grows less. Have we arrived at an unthinkable post-natural and post-human condition? Does this singular event offer to all that will, the extraordinary opportunity to re-name the world in which we live? Are we, appearing to be human, already the cyborgs of the fiction of science?
These are the questions that motivated KOYAANISQATSI, the other films of the Trilogy and, hence, the website that we offer for your participation, inquiry and dialogue. This is our beginning effort to supposit these films into the web, to mainline the QATSI Trilogy.
In closing we offer two reflections that articulate the point of view of this site: one from Elias Canetti, a Nobel Laureate for literature; the other from French philosopher and writer Jacques Ellul.
A tormenting thought: as of a certain point, history was no longer real. Without noticing it, all mankind suddenly left reality.
- Canetti
"...The crisis that we are approaching today is of yet another order. For it entails the transition, not from one form of society and power to another, but to a new environment...The present crisis...is a total crisis triggered by transition to a new and previously unknown environment, the technological environment....The present change of environment is much more fundamental than anything that the race has experienced for the last five thousand years."
Yes, the internet amazing. But it won't help if I need to borrow a set of jumper cables or a cup of sugar.
It has been estimated that computers will be owned by about 1.3 billion people by 2010 (BBC reporting). Out of a world population of about 7.5 billion. So maybe one of seven people worldwide will have a computer.
In India, home of the new IT revolution, 245,000 people are employed – out of population of well over a billion. The new technocratic class is tiny. 40% of the population in Bombay have no access to clean water. Over a third of the population (365 million people) live in the most abject poverty.
The internet and corporate globalization hasn’t done much for most people. Most people worldwide don’t even have shoes, let alone computers or cell phones. If this is in fact the dawn of a new age most people are still sleeping.
I haven’t noticed that the internet has seriously mitigated world poverty, hunger, colonialism, racism, drought, disease, imperialism, militarism, or The Yankees chances of winning the World Series.
Your quote is pure psycho-babel drivel .To call it science fiction would be kind.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
True, but is sure helps sell a lot of instruments! Seriously, it has made a big difference in the Irish music world, and in specialized instrument communities. And, oddly, makes local connections as much as far flung ones. Of course, the point of all this is still to learn tunes, and share them playing in a local session.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"Your quote is pure psycho-babel drivel .To call it science fiction would be kind. "
Well, thanks, cocus.... I assume you have not seen the films ? They are amazing, stunningly beautiful.
You seem to have missed the point. I'm not advocating the internet as 'a good thing' which mitigates the problems you mention. (It was never intended as such. It was designed so that the Americans could win a nuclear war)
I don't understand why you assume I'm in favour of technology at all. The point is that humans don't decide what future we get. The future is decided by technology which drags us along in its wake.
But that's a different topic. I was interested in the aspect of buying and selling musical instruments. There are very few trades left (in developed countries) where an independent craftsman can make a living. Mostly, they can't compete with factories or cheap imports. Flutes, guitars, and similar, are one exception. I have made a living selling handmade items (wooden chairs), so I've had to give a lot of thought to the way the economics work.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
My mother bought our family home for $25,000. Today it'd be worth upwards of $600,000. Should she be then selling it for $25,000.00 so as not to make a profit? If she did she wouldnt be able to afford a house again....
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Yes, bb, the same market forces are affecting the price of real-estate. Here in SF a house that sells for $80,000 to $100,000 in the midwest would cast a million or more here. Supply and demand... it's understood. As it relates to myself and this topic, currently I wouldn't be able to replace either of the instruments I play because of the way the market forces are affecting the prices. My question was to ponder on what it is exactly about ourselves that drives these prices so high, and to wonder if our behavior feeds into it. Our excuse seems to always be things like: "but everyone does it" or "if I don't do it someone else will" and "that's just the way it is" etc.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
leoj writes: "Hypothetically, if she were to sell her flute at some point for a profit would you expect a share? Is that a reasonable expectation given that you made nothing on the transaction? Would it even be ethical for her to sell at a profit ? Or perhaps you have an agreement that the flute must be sold to another player at the original cost?"
~~~
These are all questions she'll have to ask herself if that day ever comes. I'm not passing judgment on people who do this, and the issue I'm raising here isn't directed at anyone personally. I'm just raising the issue for discussion.
As to your hypothesis, I suppose she would probably offer it to me first. If someone did such a favor for me I would offer it to them first if I decided to sell it... but that's just me and I don't expect anyone to do what I would do.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Perhaps there is some way of making these fine instruments available to musicians who would otherwise not be able to afford them. As a model, I'm thinking of the subsidies provided to make housing affordable to those who would never be able to live in S.F., for instance--teachers, cops, etc. Not sure about the details...
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"...fine instruments available to musicians who would otherwise not be able to afford them."
What crap!
I'll be happy enough to have this thread die. But before that, here are some interesting facts. The flute was sold out of the Olwell shop on EBay. It belonged to somebody who worked there and it was his own flute. Was it wrong not to have gone to somebody on the wait list? Was he gouging? If Olwell sold all his instruments on EBay they'd all go in the $6,000 range, no question about it.
Rather than thinking of this as an exorbitant price to pay, you should think of being able to buy this flute for a lower price through the wait-list as a great bargain. You just have to wait. Meanwhile any serious musician can use another flute, more readily obtainable, to make music. The high price of premium instruments doesn't deprive anybody of a good, playable instrument. There are other fine instrument besides Olwell. This bellyaching and whining is pure stupidity.
I'd like a vacation house in Southern France. Too bad I can't afford it. Maybe a state subsidy?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I'd be happy enough to let this thread die as well but before we do- if the employee of Olwell waited six to ten years and then sold it on eBay, well fair enough, that's life. If he got a favour from Partick Olwell in that he got the flute early and /or cheap, and then sold it on eBay for a huge market up, if I was Patrick Olwell, he/she would never get another and to be honest, I'd sack them.
Yes, if Patrick Olwell were to put his flutes on eBay he might well sell a few for $6000( which is still a good jump away from €5000 by the way) but he would only sell a few at that price and eventually he would run out of market and/or people with lots of money to spend. But as things seem to be going, if anyone were to buy with the purpose of selling on, they might well soon be in negative equity just like lots of property speculators. If the current economic climate continues or worsens, then the market in over priced instruments will soon fade away or at least be reduced, if even temporarily.
There is no conspiracy theory on my part, I just was curious to know where all the money was made- I have no real interest, i am not a flute player so it won't be affecting me too much !
But there is still a real difference between buying from a dealer and buying from a fellow player, and for all this talk of not taking or asking for the going rate, I can remember countless examples of players selling instruments to trade up or sideways and offering them for what they paid for them or maybe a small few bob extra but nothing like what is going on with some. I myself sold my starter AC Norman concertina for exactly what I paid for it and yet could have held on a few months a made a few bob comparitive for what I paid for it.
But there is positives to both sides. Dealers provide a service; you want a new instrument and there is no one that you know of selling - go to a dealer and pay the rate. No complaints. But let's get away from this bullsh*t of "I'm buying instruments so that players can have them" Yeah right! You're buying them to make a profit and how much you make will depend on your morals. Dealers are no different from everybody else- there are some good 'uns and some bad 'uns. As for the vacation house in France, well keep going the way you are going Cocus and no doubt you will have it soon enough and as for state subsidy..there is answer there but good manners prevent me from pointing it out !
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
.".there is answer there but good manners prevent me from pointing it out " now he discovers manners!
"But let's get away from this bullsh*t of "I'm buying instruments so that players can have them" Yeah right! You're buying them to make a profit and how much you make will depend on your morals"
I think it is you who is piling on a load of crap, your entire reason to post here seems to have more to do with sour grapes against cocus than with the subject of flutes which you have admittedly have no stake in the first place. Furthermore, unless you state you have never sold anything in your life for a profit I suggest you stop the petty moralizing. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money on an item one sells! Obviously you make money from something otherwise you couldn't afford your internet connection.
"Morals" give me a break! Nobody is selling medicine at inflated prices here, but a discretionary product people are willing to pay for! This is just a totally false argument.
As to cocus' stated reasoning about keeping flutes in the hands of players: You question it without merit or evidence which amounts to nothing but cheap slander. I happen to know the facts here better than you do, and trust me, you look foolish vis-a-vis the facts on this matter.
There is no moral code in the world that demands cocus has to sell the flute at a loss or at par. To claim otherwise is the true BS!
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
A flute came up for sale, I pointed out how much above the maker's price it was and posed a question asking what makes the waiting period so expensive, and it's taken personally and people start telling each other they're "full of crap" and they're talking sh*te etc. So my next question is: why does asking my original question seem to touch a raw nerve? If the value of the waiting period is what it is, why couldn't it just be discussed without the personal baggage? Is there something inherently wrong with trying to understand the value of a waiting period?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"Is there something inherently wrong with trying to understand the value of a waiting period?"
Fascinating point. It arose when I came into possession of some land. I was impatient and excited about the prospect of establishing a garden, and I made lists of what I desired. Seeds were relatively cheap. Seedlings, considerably more expensive. Potted trees and shrubs much more expensive again.
Time is money, but time is also one's passing life-time. Some of the seeds I germinated and cherished and planted will eventually become very large trees, but I will not live to see their maturity.
Others grow very fast and are already enormous. Some have grown so large and were originally, as tiny things, planted too close together, that I have to cut them down. All that work and time ends as firewood and brush.
I think it has to do with one's personal scale of values. If playing flute is a powerful inner compulsion, and takes priority over everything else in life, then, that's all that matters, and you sell your house, and everything else, and beg sleeping space on someone's floor, rather than not have the best possible instrument. But very few people have such a strong motivation...
It's a pity that the bamboo flute isn't used for irish music, because then you could make your own, like Okudo Yatsuya does.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"Is there something inherently wrong with trying to understand the value of a waiting period?"
Absolutely not! A perfectly valid discussion to have.
But that's not where the discussions was heading, rather some people where putting a negative spin on cocus's motivation in selling the flute to the point where the seller felt he was being badgered.
Also some false statements and accusations were made which, I think, deserved to be addressed.
Value of waiting list? Apparently $3,000-$5,000 above retail.
I remember a keyless Wilkes to go for over $3,000 on ebay not too long ago. What would a fully keyed newer Wilkes go for I wonder, considering the waitlist is 10 years?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"I happen to know the facts here better than you do, and trust me, you look foolish vis-a-vis the facts on this matter." sigh, more sighs. Wouldn't think so
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
When I visit Ireland I always listen to the call-in chat shows as I drive around because I think it gives you a sense of what the current issues are. Last time I was there I listened to a discussion about land with imaginary houses being bought and sold and how the prices for these imaginary houses was escalating at an alarming rate despite the fact that the houses didn't exist except on paper. It reminds me of this discussion because we're talking about something intangible and that the value can be speculated on. There were a lot of very frustrated people ringing in and bemoaning how the speculation on these imaginary homes was driving up the cost of existing homes and pushing them out of reach for ordinary working people that just wanted a place to live.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Interesting you should mention that Phantom. For the last six months or so,a number of financial analysts here in Ireland were pointing out that because the so called Celtic Tiger was very largely dependent on construction, that there was bound to be tears. Of course this was all pooh poohed by the politicians, estate agents and other parties who had a vested interest in maintaining the madness. Now the chickens have come home to roost and it can be seen that there were four parties involved in the whole debacle- the banks, estate agents, builders and politicians- they all were all pushing the action because they were all getting their slice.
Now the poor unfortunates who were given money with hardly any questions asked, are having their houses repossessed or at the least, are in negative equity. The banks give out umbrellas when the weather is fine and take them back when it starts to rain ! Of course nobody forces us into the bank, nobody forces us to borrow and we must take responsibilty for our own actions, but that includes the banks, politicians etc. But their morals are gone missing. It is all about profit and more profit.But they will not be the ones out on the road ! A large percentage of the builders, estate agents etc have become millionaires and will walk away from the pain and will quote the same old mantras of free market etc. But is it? There is no such thing as a free lunch, someone has to pay. What is it they say about sh*t falling downwards?
And as you say Phantom in reference to the radio programmes, the ordinary Joe will and is suffering- the ordinary person who justs wants a roof over their head whilst others live in palatial mansions and because of their connections, get permission to build huge monstrosity of "holiday homes" in rural areas, blighting the landscape, not contributing anything to the community other than for a few weeks each year, leaving them empty for most of the year whilst those "beneath stairs" in the locality are unable to afford their own homes and have to look wistfully at these empty houses all year round. As for the suburbs around Dublin, that is a scary example of how people are exploited even if they do play a part in their own ruination. Apartments near where I live, which weren't selling, have recently been reduced by €100,000(yes, all the noughts are correct) and the builder could still make a profit. Four bed houses have had 150,000 taken off ! Do I feel sorry if builders go belly up? I do for the workers. Will he pour any of his money back in to keep them in work until things get better? I doubt it.
For years, the Irish liked to believe that the English were responsible for all our woes but the root of the problems lie much closer to home.I am very lucky in that I am not in debt to any bank but stll feel strongly about how my fellow man is being treated-just like I don't play the flute but am concerned about where the prices are going.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Here are my thoughts on this and I reiterate this has no bearing on the used flute market from an analogy point of view.
There is a complex wheel at work here:
The housing situation in Ireland is invariably linked to the US situation as it is all part of an international banking system.
Following the burst of the stock market bubble , the resulting economic slowdown and then 9/11 the UScentral bank went through a series of interest rate cuts of historic proportions that resulted in a gigantic liquidity flush. In essence what this means all those trillions in cash no longer earned fixed income at a reasonable rate. The money wanted to be invested, th ebanks has easy leverage. Look at banks like Lehman they where 30x leveraged. Consumers were bombarded with easy money, to either refinance their house, or to lure people into bigger homes. With the cheap rates now larger mortgages become more affordable. As we all know many shady practices were facilitated by virtual no government oversight. European banks participated heavily in the US mortgage market as well including subprime.
End result the consumer leveraged themselves up to the hilt.
Economic growth flourished creating sustained demand of construction, consumer goods, housing, immigration through economic opportunity, china, india everybody needed to produce more just a gigantic wheel turning.
And I agree a lot of people got priced out, ugly, ugly.
In the meantime you had a US president spending money like there is no tomorrow, well he believes in the rapture so maybe that's why, but debt obligations for the US government grew from 27 trillion to 54 trillion dollars during Bush, end result: The dollar weakened and weakened. What is traded in dollars? Oil, commodities you name it.All of a sudden you had an inflationary spiral beggining to turn as the weakened dollar drove the prices up,and in the meantime the liquidity flush built excess inventory. Speculators amass bought and build more homes, the excess liquidity created temporary but unsustainable demand. And that's when the bubble burst, too many builders and speculative buyers but not enough real buyers.
The entire system of leverage was built on housing prices having to increase, and when the supply demand equation failed prices dropped and guess what happened? The banks that had 30x leverage built in? They had to de-leverage. The debt that was outstanding was guaranteed by debt ratings. Depending on the debt ratings you have different obligations, once the debt ratings were lowered the banks had to blow it out and/or raise money. Net effect: liquidity crisis! The Fed provided facilities, but the fact is nobody knows what the debt is really worth!
So guess what? The dollar kept falling, the inflation spiral crept up, and valuations continued to sink, and all the European banks had to delever as well..
So here we are, so why one may argue because prices go up in both examples there are similarities, the reality is there entirely different mechanics at work here.
Maybe the simplests explanation and maybe brutal explanation is this: We live in a world of different economic means. Most people in India and china and Africa will enver be able to afford an Olwell flute (and Patrick couldn't meet the demand if they wanted to). Everybody has access to the same flutes at the same price, just need to wait. For those rare occasions, and I mean rare that a keyed flute from a top maker becomes available, some people wo desire to have a better playing instrument are willing to pay a premium and will outprice others who also want to avoid the wait list.
I say it is rare, it is less than a dozen flutes we are talking about each year. How many keyed Wilkes and Olwell's have become available in the open market in the last 2-3 years? I bet less than 10 worldwide.
So keep things in perspective.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I suppose it comes down to taking advantage of a situation to facilitate your purpose for selling an instrument. But just as with the imaginary houses in Dublin, it pushes the game into an area where only people who are willing and able to play with high stakes can participate. The result is the escalation in price, and that leaves a lot of people who just want to play music behind. So be it, but I don’t know if the practice honors the philosophy David attributed to Olwell about making “affordable instruments.” The result is quite the opposite; the once affordable becomes unaffordable – that’s the reality. Sure that’s fine because everyone else is doing it and that’s the way the market works etc., etc… but the bottom line remains unchanged… oh well.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think that in some way, the discussion is taking and has taken place. We are all right(as in correct) in are own way, we are all expressing what we think is the most acceptable way.We just dont agree on that way ! And sure that's what makes the world go around. But I have to stop now because I want to add a "but"
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"The result is the escalation in price, and that leaves a lot of people who just want to play music behind."
Do you think that if a person cant have an expensive instrument he can't make music? Aren't you a friend of Mick Kinsella's? Micho never had anything but a cheap tin whistle. Mary Bergin. What does Peter Horan play?
Jack, you are the one saying that a premier instrument is necessary for making music. It's just silly to say that I am responsible for the escalation in price or that the high prices will mean players won't have adequate instruments.
There are plenty of good keyed flutes around for $2,000-3,000 -- also not a trivial amount of money. If you want to make music you'll make music, no matter what you can or cannot afford.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Not that Phantom needs me to reply on his behalf but I think Cocus, the problem started with you(but not you personally) advertising an instrument that is something like $3100 new and asking €5200. Not so much that you were wrong to sell an instrument, not that you were wrong to look for that price( because at the initial stages of the discussion we didn't know the route or life of the flute), but Phantom was more just hoping to open debate on how certain types of instruments( particularly flutes and concertinas) were escalating in price, and the resultant fall out. That you had paid say for example €5100 and were looking to recoup 100 for a case or something is not really the point- it was just a prompter to discuss the different mechanisms by which certain instruments are climbing in price and maybe in this case, as to how an Olwell flute which started life at $3100 could now cost €5200 and was it right/acceptable whatever ,that the difference in price was being charged in order to save waiting time?
You said you paid 10% less than the €5200 for it, so fine. How did it get to 4 whatever is what I was curious about. Did someone along the way make a huge profit and if so, would it not be at least understandable, that if they did, that this might be considered unethical or immoral? This has been replied to by way of free market etc. But to my mind that doesn't make it right or indeed ethical.
And the reality is that people without money do get left behind- in all walks of life. Medical being the worst example that comes to mind. If you lose an eye because you can't afford medical care, sure you have another ! Yes, we all did ok before fridges but if you don't have one today, you are in trouble. The same applies to computers, the universities in Ireland are now insisting that you do certain types of mid term assessments/exams via their web site although you are attending in person and are not doing distance learning. What happens if you can't afford a PC? If there ever was a piece of equipment that could be considered a luxury in the homeplace, it is it and yet you will be unable to function properly or as well as others if you don't have one at home. Yes there are PCs on the campus but is it the same? Similarly, we all played cheap instruments such as "penny whistles" at one time but do you think that you will be welcome today in Miltown Malbay if your instrument is slightly off concert? You will like hell ! A lot of string players now have electronic tuners permanently fixed to the head stock, will they want to play with you if your instrument is slightly out?
Another example in Ireland is broadband. How many people in this country don't have it and can't get it ? Thousands. Businesses are complaining. Should they be told that they can get on with business just fine and don't be bellyaching? And so, just as our life demands change, so does our music. Yes, you can make great music on a Stagi or the equivalent and many did, but you won't get to execute rolls etc on them.And so we need to get instruments that will allow us to play with our peers.
The question as I see it is should people( not neccessarily you) exploit this? If dealers are so in love with musical instruments, why don't they buy and sell D whistles? Why is there such a mark up on concertinas and flutes in particular? I accept that there are plenty of simplistic and answers but probably no simple ones. Personally I see dealers very like banks, a neccessary evil but I do try ( not always successfully)to live and let live.
And as you can testify Cocus, I did try to put someone who I know was looking for an Olwell in touch with you and what happened then was going to be between two adults.What I thought or felt was totally irrelevant between you but here, Phantom attempted to open a discussion and I said what I thought, which was-
if you buy and sell instruments for profit, you are involved in the excalation of prices. You are not soley responsible but you play your part. I just wish you would accept that you deal in instruments, that you buy and sell for profit, and as such you have to accept that you do play a part in pushing up prices and it is not like you sell an odd instrument every few years, but you are continously doing it and therefore continually pushing up prices.Yes it is your right, nobody is calling the cops, but accept what it is you do and that not everybody will like it.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I will be even one more person responding to this who really has no business doing so...in that I mean that if Cocus has something to sell and wants to sell it at whatever price, why should anybody care...let the deal be between him and the buyer...I mean you could all think that "gee I would never pay that , I'll just wait", but let the man sell his flute and let someone buy it...
and I do not see where anybody is left behind...if I sell my fiddle for xxx price does that mean that someone else won't be able to play????
what it means is that my fiddle (and the Cocus flute) would enter into a market of "wants" not "needs"
if you buy a home, are you in fact responsible for the escalation of profit if in 10 years you sell for more than you paid? Maybe you guys should all sell your instruments for what you paid and send your money to the US Gov't to help get the economy back on track...
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sunnybear, I was opening a discussion about the escalating cost of instruments and not David in particular. If you research the discussion forum you will find numerous threads where people are frustrated by the high cost and extreme waiting periods for high quality instruments. Since this is a discussion board about ITM related issues the discussion I was hoping to have is perfectly appropriate. Following the path of an instrument where the value of the waiting period exceeds the retail cost of the instrument is an interesting example. I wasn't attacking David's “morality” by raising this question and I said more than once that he's not doing anything wrong and I'm not suggesting he change what he's doing. All I'm doing is tracking an instrument's value and examining what has contributed to the value of an intangible aspect of that value -- the waiting period.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I should explain how I arrived at the price of the waiting period exceeding the retail price.
3,100 US Dollar = 1,974.89 Euro
5,200 Euro = 8,162.02 US Dollar
When you convert the currency the retail price of the flute is 1,974.89 Euro. The price David is asking is 5,200 Euro If you subtract the retail price from David's asking price you get 3,226 Euro. If you convert that back to dollars you get $5,063.88 - the cost of the waiting period on a flute that originally cost $3100.
If I'm wrong about these calculations please let me know.
Take the Euro 5 years ago at say 0.9 (never mind that it used to be weaker than the dollar) a $3,100 price would have resulted in a dollar price of $4,359 (around .64 now) if one were to keep the euro price for the flute the same.
Now obviously the euro price went up as well so you get a double hit here as any increase is further magnified by the declining dollar value....
Now tack on inflation of 3% a year on top of that....compund it..then market forces...it all adds up..
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack, how you arrived at your figures doesn't matter at all to me...I assume, thought that you did it right the first time..
what I find interesting is that people attack Cocus and they are not even interested in purchasing the flute ...they are just interested in making their point on some morality issue
do you shop at Wal Mart? buy Chinese? purchase gas for your car?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sunnybear, I'm not going to tell you again -- I'M NOT ATTACKING COCUS! I'm raising the issue of the value of a waiting period. Cocus isn't the only person who has added to the price of an instrument based on the value of the waiting period. It happens with other instruments as well, and unfortunately it happens a lot. I'm just raising the issue for discussion because this is a discussion forum, this issue has frustrated a lot of people and this provides an opportunity to discuss it. So please dismount and take your high-horse back to the barn... thank you.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
....and so why do you not discuss the issue on a seperate post instead of singling out the original poster who just so happens only wants to sell a flute? His flute, his asking price...what's the problem?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
It's a discussion board... hello? If someone wants to sell an instrument and not have it become a topic for discussion they shouldn't post it on a discussion board.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
hello
so why do you not ask questions regarding the flute itself rather than taking issue with the price the seller is asking...oh I know...because you have no interest in discussing the flute for sale...you want to hijack the thread by turning it into an issue as to why he is asking so much..
that is my point (and actually my own hijack...oooh no pun intended..."hijack")
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
and , really, Cocus did not state in his post that he wanted to discuss how much he was asking, or as to why he had the right to ask whatever he wanted for it...
I am sure that he would discuss his flute, but you are not even a potential buyer...and you do not have questions regarding his flute...you just want to take issue with him and his asking price
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Having waded through this thread, and vacillated on the pros and cons, I would suggest that heretofore, anyone wanting to sell an instrument on this board, do so without mentioning price, which would be disclosed and discussed soley through the PM system.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
mandolincafe.com is a privately owned and administered website that has a very successful classified section; listing instruments for sale in the discussion boards is not allowed. Having classified's is a great service to for sellers, buyers, and just folks learning about their instruments and the market for them. It's nice to have both, and nice to have them separated.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Separating the two may be a good idea, but I have found this discussion interesting and informative. I think this was the right place for these issues to be discussed, at least in this instance because of the issue of the significant premium.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
The thread has been about beaten to death. Nobody asked me what the cost of the flute would be today. Jack never asked me about that He is totally wrong about $3,100. This flute has beautiful hand-made keys for the C and Bb, both right hand touch. It is also a four part "Pratten" flute (two part center section). Neither of these features is offered as an option. The two keys and two-part center are custom features. Assuming you'd be able to convince Olwell to make another flute like this, the price would be about $4,000. It is a spectacular flute.
The big jump in price occurred when the flute was offered on Ebay by an Olwell associate who got a new flute (with no waiting) with a different key arrangement. The flute sold in excess of €4,000 ($6,000) on the open market. I had nothing to do with that.
Is it rocket science to see that demand is generally what drives up the price? As with most other things in life. It is an unkind world and people with money can afford to buy more expensive things than those without money. But I'm sure there are very few of us who are following this on the net who are unable to afford a good playable instrument. I don't know what the point of all this has been or what anybody has learned from this futile exercise.
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
David, why do you find it so appalling to discuss the intrinsic value of the waiting period? Wouldn't it ultimately be beneficial to have an understanding of it for any potential buyers?
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I never take part in these discussions period. This was brought to my attention and I feel I am obligated to address this. Dont you rememeber me Mr Cocus ? I had the 4 keyed Murray flute for sale last yr @$1800 which you informed me was way overpriced. Peter Maguire.
For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
The flute is in Ireland with me. Six silver keys, silver rings and tuning slide. It is about four years old. It is a concert (D) flute. It is like new. It comes in a custom-fit kidskin leather-covered Northwind case.
It is in perfect tune and it is a glorious player. It has some custom features. I am asking 5,200 Euros for the flute. There is about a six-year wait list for this flute.
# Posted on July 5th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Hi cocus.
You dont by any chance have an olwell 'c' section that you'd be willing to part with?
cheers,
fionnbarra.
# Posted on July 5th 2008 by fionnbarra
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Cocus... is five years really worth the difference between $3,100 and £5,200? You're talking about charging $5,061 for not having to wait. That's around $2000 more than the actual price of the flute from Olwell plus the price of the flute itself; $2000 more than twice the price. Or, it's like selling 1 flute for the price of 2 flutes and adding $2000.
Just a thought.
# Posted on July 5th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
It's like those hand-made Morgan cars, the waiting list is so long that the car gains in value as you drive it out of the works ( unlike a normal new vehicle, where it looses 17.5% as you drive it out of the dealer ).
Surely, if you actually want one of these you are on the waiting list already ?
And people were suggesting that the rising price of fuel was limiting their trips to out-of-the-way sessions - obviously some people might still have some substantial free disposable income.
I would be interested to know the outcome of this advertisement - rumour has it that people are having to substantially drop the asking price on pieces of property - does this include woodwind ?
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
took me 10 years to get my keyed olwell
six years is a "best case" scenerio i think
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Brendan
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I'd love to grab this, but the price is way too steep for me. I'm on the list and only have five years to go
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by celtic marine
Regarding price; Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute
Dear Phantom Button, et al,
It's a lot of money, no question. But six-key Olwell flutes seldom appear on the market- at any price. There is no place you can buy a keyed Olwell for $3,100. And not with a Northwind case (www.northwindcases.com) and certainly not with custom keys (right-hand Bb touch). So while it might not be an antique and have vintage value, it is as nearly impossible to find one immediately available as a set of Geoff Wooff pipes. Geoff has a wait list of around fifteen years. A full set of his pipes on the used market would bring over €10,000.
I bought this flute for not much less than I am asking for it. In six years (or ten) the price I am asking will not seem very high compared to the price at that future date. It might or might not be worth it to a player to have the flute to play during that time and to pay a premium for having it available.
If the flute sells at my asking price I will be making about 10% over what I paid for the flute. I sold the last keyed Olwell for €5,000 and the buyer was delighted to buy it. Hardly price-gouging. I would also point out that an Olwell flute is not a basic necessity. Anymore than an old Jeffries or Wheatstone of comparable quality, which would sell for much more than this flute.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Hey, these things are worth that much. So don't bother complaining everyone.
What I don't understand is why Mr Olwell and Morgan both seem to make a basic principle out of giving away money to other people. Effectively that is what happens when Morgan sells a car for X and the new owner can immediately sell it for Y. Why doesn't the maker sell it directly for Y? The market is king after all. And the work of both Morgan and Pat Olwell seems to be worth that extra money.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Olwell doesn't want the market to be king. He doesn't want to sell the most expensive flute on the market. There are makers charging more for their flutes than Patrick charges, even though their flutes are arguably not as good. Patrick accepts that he'll never be rich. But knowing that he is making truly wonderful flutes that are affordable -- and making a decent living at the same time -- is enough for him.
He will not knowingly sell a flute to a person who intends to resell that flute. Nor will he sell to a person who has in the past sold a flute bought with that purpose in mind. He wants his flutes to be in the hands of players, not collectors or shopkeepers.
Fair play to Olwell.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
mmmmn, I see cocus. Looking at the line " with that purpose in mind", I would suggest that for someone who doesn't have "that purpose in mind", you seem to sell a lot of instruments- both flutes and concertinas ! Or does it just seem that way?
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Selling instruments
I love to try different instruments. I also want to play them for more than just a few minutes at a time. I want to get to know them really well. Yes, I have bought and sold a lot of instruments over the years. I can't afford to keep all the instruments that I buy and I don't make a profit on every one that I sell.
But I don't buy a new instrument from a maker with the idea of selling it once I have it- nor do I get on a maker's list in order to make a profit on a new instrument. I keep my eye out for good used instruments and that is what I sell.
The last keyed Olwell I sold was vetted by Matt Molloy at €5,000. As I said, the buyer was delighted to find it. This one has the added advantage of being a four-piece Pratten model -- with a center section in two pieces rather than the single-piece center section -- which is very unusual and not an option that Patrick offers.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
So tempted, but definitely don't have the money. :( I've been playing a keyless Olwell for the past three years, but sadly it belongs to my flute teacher in Wyoming, and I had to give it up when I left the country after graduation... Would love an Olwell though, but that'll have to be after I get a job and can afford to put money aside and all that. Had some classes with June McCormack last summer, and she plays Olwell as well: She makes them sound so amazing!
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by ingridrt
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"He will not knowingly sell a flute to a person who intends to resell that flute. Nor will he sell to a person who has in the past sold a flute bought with that purpose in mind. He wants his flutes to be in the hands of players, not collectors or shopkeepers. "
But isn't that what happens when the flute is sold for the highest price? If the maker want's players to afford his flutes, then players become out of reach unless they're someone like Matt Molloy.
The same thing happens with concertinas: the market drives the price out of reach. There are people (speculators) who get in line for these instruments and then turn around and sell them for top dollar. This in effect undermines the maker's efforts to get instruments into the hands of players who aren't wealthy.
I ordered a fully-keyed Olwell flute in 1996 and last year I contacted Olwell to see if he had one yet. He offered me the very next one. In the 10 years while I waited I bought a Grinter flute, but I always wondered if I would have liked the Olwell better. A friend of mine, who's a lovely player, wanted an Olwell flute but didn't want to wait 10 years, and she didn't have the money for a speculator's flute, so I made an arrangement to have her buy the Olwell and I would get to play both for a week or so and see which one I preferred. At the end of that time she would get either the Grinter or the Olwell. It turns out I was used to the Grinter and the Olwell didn't strike me as being that much different since I was accustomed to the Rudall & Rose style. Now she has the flute of her dreams that she could both afford and didn't have to wait for. That's one way to help get the flutes into the hands of players who deserve them... it's called "win win."
I suppose I could have bought the flute and then after a while sell it for two and a half times the price, but the extra money I made would have represented a failure on my part. Just my own opinion. I don't want to be part of what's driving the price of these things through the roof.
# Posted on July 6th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Sour Grapes?
A little bit of nastiness there, PB? As I said,the flute's available at a lower price. You just have to wait. So is your complaint that too many people want an Olwell flute and that the wait list is too long? Tough.
Even if I sold the flute for what a new one would go for – and significantly less than I paid for this one – used Olwells would still be pricey. It’s called supply and demand.
If you want one then you either have to wait or pay the premium for immediate delivery. Same with concertinas. No instrument maker, and no instrument trader, is going to get rich from dealing in instruments on our level. Your passing up a profit on an Olwell flute is your choice, and publicizing that choice is just tooting your own horn. Personal witness, perhaps. No cause for applause, at least not from this quarter.
I don’t see how my selling a used flute represents “a failure on my part” any more than your driving a car uses up nonrenewable resources.
Go tilt your lance at somebody else.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"There are people (speculators) who get in line for these instruments and then turn around and sell them for top dollar. This in effect undermines the maker's efforts to get instruments into the hands of players who aren't wealthy."
As I said, this is not me. And I really don't know anybody who does this. Certainly not the most well-known dealers. And it can only be done once, if then. Makers know who these people are.
Prices are driven up by legitimate players willing to line up and wait for a good instrument, or who are willing to pay the price for immediate delivery. Perhaps things don't work that way in Utopia but I don't know anybody who lives there. Do you?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I'm not being "nasty," I'm just raising what I think is a valid point. It's nothing against you personally, David -- I'm questioning the practice. I'm not suggesting you have to do anything different, I'm raising a point that I think merits a discussion. This is after all a discussion board is it not? I'm hoping others who have been frustrated by this might chime in with their ideas. No harm intended.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Keep the prices reasonable
Sorry, cocus, but unless you're running a music trading business for your living, I tend to side with PB. At least on the general principle.
These instruments although in theory market commodities and thus subject to market drivers, really should not be profited from. It's bad enough - for those players who have the skill to be worthy of such great instruments - that the waiting list is so long. ( Of course, that's no fault of the makers, that's just life).
But for the price then to leap BECAUSE OF these long waiting periods, through several multiple re-sales, to a level beyond the reach of most, is doubly sad.
I scored a really good 1958 Selmer centred-tone clarinet very cheaply a number of years ago. I got it cheaply from a jazz buff, who himself had been the beneficiary of a huge gesture from an American pro. he passed on his lucky break to me.
When I then stopped playing clarinet a few years ago ( itself a big mistake) I sold it to a mate who was going to make much better use of it than me, and at the same very low price.
Like PB, I'm not really blowing my own "clari", I just thought that was the right thing to do. Maybe cocus bought the Olwell at an already inflated price, and so is just getting his money back. But a shame that it has come to that.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Fliúiteadóir
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
What does this: "unless you're running a music trading business for your living" have to do with it? If you say you're out to make a buck it's ok? But if you don't say that, then it's not ok?
I'll be happy to sell the flute for what I paid for it to a player. I bought it at a high price to keep it in the hands of a player rather than to see it neither played nor sold on.
Both PB and flutador sold the instrument to friends rather than on the open market. That's what the first seller did to me and I'll gladly do the same. But I don't that's necessarily praiseworthy.
There are plenty of good instruments available for a lot less money than this Olwell flute. You don't need an Olwell to make good music. There is a long wait list for an Olwell. There isn't for most other makers. Is this a big problem? I don't think so. We're not talking about being unable to afford bread and potatoes here. A flute on this level is a luxury item. People can't afford it? Too bad. Ain't my fault. It's a fact of the market.
Do you feel that way about Rudalls that are comparably priced?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
All good and well, but anyone selling something significantly below its' market price has to be aware that they are effectively donating a portion of the item's value to the recipient.
This is fine if you have high moral grounds for doing so, but really, would you feel the same if you actually did the sums and thought that what you are actually saying is: "Here is an Olwell flute plus a 2000Euro credit note to be cashed in when you sell the flute." Whether that owner or the next one or the one ofter that cashes in your 2000 Euros or not is not relevant to you.
I would rather that the makers of these instruments set their prices to a reasonable level so that THEY are the ones who get the extra money. I really can't see anyone else having a better claim to this profit than they do. Maybe it is macho to have a waiting list of heroic proprtions but it doesn't really make life easier for anyone.
Nobody is shy about setting the price of e.g. a violin, to be what it should be. Why are flutes and concertinas different. Why can't the makers harvest the proceeds of their hard work and skill?
These instruments are not "in theory market commodities" - they are IN FACT market commodities. Denying it won't change it.
In the classical world there is already a separation between ownership of instruments and usage. E.g. owners of valuable violins that then lend them to top players to use. Would something like this not solve the problem addressed above? And keep everyone happy.
I personally would have severe problems parting from any of my instruments for any amount of money, so the issue doesn't affect me (unless I get seriously poor?).
Chris.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
The situation with rare old violins is an anomaly. Where else in the world of instruments does one encounter the valuations of a Strad-or other "name brands" --which start at a million dollars or so and rapidly escalate. They are great violins but rarity is the major reason for these crazy valuations--a "playable" violin--like a "playable" flute can be had for reasonable sum. Of course, the player makes all the difference and a really good player can make an average instrument sound amazing.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by leoj
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Last year, I managed to get a brand new unplayed Suttner concertina, without having to do the four year waiting list.I was in the "right place at the right time". However being in the "right place at the right time" involved paying quite a high ( relative to the cost of the instrument) mark up and as Cocus mentioned, I was willing and thankfully able, to pay this money in return for the comfort of not waiting four years. It did bring up the whole thing of having money versus not and the truth, is I got a concertina before someone else who had been waiting quite a while- only because I had the money to. (When this translates into health care it takes on a whole different perspective). But there was no misunderstanding, no illusions as to what was going on. He was looking to make money, in it for a profit,I was looking to get an instrument- no one was being forced to do anything that they didn't want to. Deal done. But there was no talk of lofty notions. And so I can have no high moral ground on someone buying and selling instruments for profit- he made a lot of money and I saved four years. We were both being honest. And this is where I get lost, reading the above.
I would prefer Cocus if you say it as you do it i.e. you buy and you sell instruments to make a profit. Yes, you might like doing it, yes you might like playing the instruments until you sell them, maybe there are a lot of perks, but the bottom line is that you are in it for money and if you are placed in the category of people who drive up the price of instruments, you can have no complaints. All this talk of what Patrick Olwell does and doesn't, apart from being totally irrelevant to this situation; this talk of you really wanting to get to know the instruments, is a bit disengenous. You say "I bought it at a high price to keep it in the hands of a player rather than to see it neither played nor sold on". Do you know, that stinks to high heavens !! You paid approx €4600 or the equivalent because you knew you could make a profit on a Partick Olwell flute. And as this is your second Olwell flute to sell, I think we can take it that you are not paying the money to jump the queue or because you are desperate to play an Olwell. You certainly didn't pay that money out of some high altruistic reason. You are in it for the money and that's fine. I have no dog in this fight but please don't give me the high moral ground of how dealers like yourself don't make big money, or will only get away with a high mark up once !!
The extent that you are in it for the money could be seen
some time back, where you were looking for someone to bring a concertina in to Ireland from the States for you. You offered a slap up- meal and a warm bed in return. You assured the would be carrier that customs at Shannon was not an issue. So what you were asking in effect was that somone would smuggle something in for you, you would avoid the tax and vat etc and in return you would give them a meal. The word "mule" comes to mind. So by all means buy and sell to your heart's content, do what you have to to justify your actions, but please be up front about it and accept that you will be in the category of those who are "driving up the price" and actuallly maybe be disliked !
The curious thing of course is how did such an apparently great flute get to go from $3100(or less seeing it's four year old) to €4600 or $7200? Either loads of people sold it on at 10% profit each time ,which begs the question as to why such a great instrument keeps getting sold on, or someone along the way is making or has made big money !
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think it is a fascinating ethical question, and I'm delighted to see people thinking about it here.
Usually, our lives are so dominated and exploited by totalitarian capitalism and all the propaganda from the Thatcher-Reganite Milton Friedman era, 'greed is good', 'trickle down', 'everything has a price', all that stuff is indoctrinated into us. Every day we are pressured to part with money by all kinds of hard sell advertising tricks.
Many years ago, I asked a wise old farmer about this sort of dilemma. To live, to continue farming, it's essential to make some profitable margin on deals. If you were to give the animals or crops away, because there are starving people, then you'd soon be destitute and starving yourself. This man had pondered all these issues for decades. Is there such a thing as a 'fair' price ?
I asked him what he'd do if he had, say, a cow or horse, with some fault, gave no milk or prone to lameness. He said he'd have to sell it. But if he sold it to a friend, acquaintance, or neighbour, he'd have to be honest and open about the fault.
He would even accept a loss, if he thought he was helping someone who needed help.
But if he took it to the market, he'd say nothing. He'd go for the highest price he could get, even considering someone would be getting a dud.
His rationale was, that at the market, everyone has a fair chance to exercise their judgement. If they get fooled or ripped off, it's by way of their own choice. Part of the skill and pride of being a farmer was to appraise the animals and the risks.
My conclusion might be, that if someone wanted to sell to get the highest price, they should sell somewhere like e-bay, because this site is more like the farmer's local friends and neighbours...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"...if someone wanted to sell to get the highest price, they should sell somewhere like e-bay, because this site is more like the farmer's local friends and neighbours..."
You can bet on it that next time I will offer an instrument on EBay rather than here. It will bring more money and less grief. That said, I have an offer outstanding on the flute. To a player.
We have local friends and neighbors in rural North Clare. People on a forum are hardly friends and neighbors. They are only internet acquaintances. The sad truth is that people mistake the net for real life. Friends and neighbors have faces. Not user names.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I've never seen anyone get that much grief for simply putting up an instrument for sale for a market bearing price....jeez...
Anyone here who has ever advertised to the public and sold a car below its fair market value please raise your hand...
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Wouldn't it be great if, on the other hand, Patrick and these other great instrument makers took on a few apprentices to learn the trade. They could acquire the skill of using the lathe, reaming out, key making etc and then Patrick could put his seal of approval on the final instrument. Just as George Lowden did with guitars. That way there would not be a 10+ year waiting list and everyone would be the happier!
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by breandan
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sven, no one's getting "grief." This is a discussion board about Irish trad and this is an issue that a lot of us who play trad are frustrated with. It's nothing personal against David, I only wanted to raise the issue so we could discuss it. We talk on other discussion boards about political and economic issues and how market forces influence them. This discussion is similar but sans the politics. The question I was hoping to raise is regarding the astronomical inflated price of instruments after they leave the hands of the makers. If you have any opinions about this to share I'd be very interested, but I don't think we need to be chastised for raising the issue.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Cocus has done something perfectly legitimate. He has said that he has an instrument on offer, he has stated his price and people are free to make him offers or not. For f- sake if you don't want to offer then leave him be. I recall a similar thread where someone moaned about the asking price of an antique R&R in playable condition - these things really ARE worth that much.
The strange thing to me is that some makers are willing to undervalue their own work. And also that some makers command a far higher premium than others - but market value has always been about perception and there is no question that a fully keyed Olwell is a desirable flute. Good luck to you cocus with selling it.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack,
I did not mean to chastise rather than to defend. I felt David was being accused of being disingenious and a profiteer and he certainly seemed to indicate he felt he was getting grief. I think a discussion on the subject is totally fine, I would, however, suggest to make a discussion a seperate thread in the future, as this whole discussion may be distracting to the seller and his efforts. He, I assume, certainly just wanted to advertise his instrument not get into a position of having to defend his selling price.
On the now apparent subject I would offer the following thoughts based on my own experience and to clarify to others who don't know me I've bought and sold multiple old Rudalls, Prattens, new Grinters, Wilkes', Olwells, etc..
Not a single one of these was bought to make a profit or sold to make a profit.
I think most players would acknlowedge that most of us have different playing characteristics and different instruments suit us better than others. It is also true that no one instrument even by the same maker is exactly the same they are handmade after all.
It is also true that none of us can walk into a store and try multiple flutes by different makers at one time and make an honest comparison. I would even go so far, that is not even possible as yourself indicated you wanted to compare your 2 flutes for a week. It is not an easy process especially if multiple high caliber instruments are involved.
The exception to this is meeting a maker or collector who has many different instruments in one location.
So this means trial and error, taking chances, evaluating, etc. Since most of us don't have an unlimited budget that means you often sell an instrument in order to fund another.
markets change, often very quickly. Believe it or not the seller is not driving the price, he may set the price but he's doing that by making a judgement call as to where the market is at. Ebay is an easy public yardstick because this is where buyers often determine the final price.
The price of a flute is determined by the financial pain a buyer is willing to endure in order to get his hands on a product available in extremely limited supply.
That level of pain varied from person to person and quite frankly it is no pain to some as the makret price may be well within their means. So then it comes down to 2 issues:
1. Economic discrepancy between buyers
2. Limited output by the makers
Neither one of which anyone has any control over. We are dealing with a niche product. If it were different a well financed firm would hire and train a bunch of guys and cranck out thousands of flutes per year.
I think there is nothing wrong with asking a market price, nobody is forced into the transaction, and the seller is not creating the conditions that drive the price.
I agree it is a frustrating reality, but it is not David's or anyone else's fault.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I understand what you're saying, Sven, but you left one issue out:
3. Personal choice
I'll just say I'm glad there are people who seek out and help deserving musicians who would otherwise never be able to afford such instruments. Of course it isn't David or anyone else's "fault" but we are all participating in this market when we buy or sell an instrument.
Again, I'm not criticizing David personally, but it's interesting to juxtapose this discussion with other discussions on other boards about who's responsible for the rising price of petrol.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
There is a big and fundamental difference though. The market of flutes is an open and free market, anyone can start production if they so choose.
The market of oil is not an open and free market. Opec, for example, is a cartel which controls output. The supply side market of oil is also controlled by governments not individuals.
True ,demand is a big driver of price there as well, but the supply side is quite a different picture. In addition demand is driven largely by necessity, whereas, flutes, as David pointed out correctly, are not a necessity.
The side effect of affordability is a valid argument only to the extent it pertains to the time a player is willing to wait. Anyone can order a flute from Patrick at the standard retail price. No such chance with oil.
We are only talking about higher prices for flutes because people want a chance to skip the waiting period. This chance only offers itself up if an owenr of one of the flutes becomes available.
So one could argue that there is no price inflation on flutes at all, only to those people who would like a flute by a maker quicker than the official market allows. And that is a personal choice as you stated as the third issue. And as stated, nobody is forced to make that choice.
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think that there is a difference between buying an instrument because you want to play a different /better one and then in turn selling that to buy a different/better one, buying an instrument and finding that for various reasons you don't want/ like it anymore etc and selling it and that of buying an instrument with no other motive than to sell it on at a profit. Sure, it's not illegal, It's not even immoral I'm sure but you if this is what you do, then you must accept that you naturally will be pushing up the price. Until such time if ever that the market takes a huge reversal obviously.
In my experience, people who buy with no other agenda than to sell on, have a totally different relationship with their instruments and if they play, the act of playing can take second place to the art of making a profit, whereas most musicians I know tend to reflect Keith Richards belief that to really know your instrument you need to sleep with it ! I have seen one guy in a session, willing there and then to sell the very instrument he was playing ! For me, I couldn't imagine leaving myself without an instrument in the middle of a session. But for him, it was all about the money and not the tunes.
I have no problem with anyone buying and selling to make a profit- dealers are needed when we want a new instrument and despised when we don't- but let the person be clear about it rather than giving it all that about higher motives for buying and selling.
I think Jack's original point was a valid one- the price difference was huge and a bit vulgar.David said that he would only make 10%; I am curious to know who made all the money ?
# Posted on July 7th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
There have been several keyed Olwell flute transactions in the past 12-18 months I know of that have been at minimum $6,000 and even higher. That's the market, it is what it is. David himself indicated he sold one for 5,000 Euros. It may seem vulgar to you, but that is your personal sensibility, that does not mean that it is vulgar to others. So i'm not sure what the point is, especially considering that flutes by Grinter and Morvan, for example, are already selling at 4,000 Euros plus from the makers themselves. Some people don't want to wait 6-10 years and I understand that.
Not for me to say who made money and who didn't. I'm not even sure that it is anybody's business, these are private party transactions.
Who cares?
I'll give you a simple example. A guy owns a flute from any given maker. He paid $3,000 dollars for it. He likes it, he gets his hand on another flute, he likes that one better. Some other guy sees his original flute and offers him $6,000 to buy it. Is he supposed to say no, and say i only want $3,000 for it, sorry but that's just crazy. So the first guy made 3K, good for him. The other guy got a flute he really liked, good for him. So why suggest conspiracy? Sorry i find that silly.
So then the reality is the 2nd guy really likes that flute plays it for a year and then he comes across another flute he likes even better. what is he supposed to do sell the flute for 3K when someone now offers him 6,500? No, he'll take the 6,500 simple as that. It's just the way the world works.
A different scenario would be if a guy orders 10 flutes from some maker and immediately sells them at a huge profit, but even that's fine if the maker and buyer had a wholsale arrangement.
Sorry guys, but i find the entire subject a bit artificial. I know you are upset about high prices but i think you are misjduging the reasons for the high prices: More demand than timely supply. Simple as that.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Thats ok, Sven, you don't need to lecture us on the mechanics of greed; I think everyone is all too familiar with that. We each have to determine for ourselves where to draw the line and how to justify our own transactions. I'm not making a judgement on people who are buying and selling these instruments, but I do think it's a frustrating situation for anyone who hopes to ever be able to own a decent instrument.
When you go to the makers you see what they charge for their instruments, but you're discouraged by the waiting period. Then you see the same instrument for sale and realize that the waiting period itself is about one and a half times more expensive than the flute. But that's my point -- it's frustrating and discouraging. As I said, I'm not suggesting anyone do anything different -- I'm merely expressing my frustration and I was hoping for a discussion and people might think about it a bit. No harm intended.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
So, in sum, if you know a particularly deserving musician unable to afford a good instrument and you happen to have acquired an instrument at a good price and are willing and able to afford to sell it at a discount to the market price, then go ahead and act accordingly. People pay a premium for all kinds of crazy things and I imagine crocus will find a buyer eager to buy his flute. Good luck!
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by leoj
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
It's been a few days, have you sold your flute yet?
I may be interested. Why is it that you are selling it?
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by mkate21
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack i did not lecture anyone on the mechanics of greed, i just gave a description of the workings of some flute transactions in an attempt to explain how these prices come about. If you want to call it a lecture on the mechanics of greed so be it, i don't think that's what it is. I'm just giving you my perspective.
I do agree it is a frustrating situation and i'd rather pay less myself.
On the other hand, I personally think some of the craftmanship we've come to see from some makers is so superb and knowing how long it takes them to produce one fully keyed flute I actually think the prices they charge are too low!
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Interesting... very encouraging for anyone hoping to buy an instrument. I thank my lucky stars I was able to buy my instruments before their value was realized. Now I feel like I robbed the people I bought them from. I pity anyone who isn't rich who wants to get their hands on an instrument they deserve. All of you that have a sizable disposable income -- congrats!
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Maybe I should send Grinter about $5,000 to ease my conscience.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack,
I really do not understand your sarcasm here. I don't know what you paid for your Grinter, you indicated you've had it for years while you waited, but I suspect you paid a lot less for it then Mike charges today.
If you were to sell it today what price would you charge? The price you paid for it? Be honest.
And of course the alternative then is for the flute makers to ask a lot less for their flutes and increase their work hours to 18 hour days so they can crank out more flutes. The demand would be satisfied and everyone who "isn't rich" can get their hands on an instrument they deserve.
Jack there are people today who can't afford a keyed Grinter, Olwell, even at the retail prices these makers charge. So your stated desire that "anyone who isn't rich...to get their hands on an instrument they deserve" isn't even compatible with current reality.
And maybe we need to make it more specific.
What Jack, do you think, is the appropriate hourly wage a flute maker deserves to earn in making a flute?
Minimum wage? Less? More? $10/hour, 20? 30? Make it specific please.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think the flute makers are perfectly capable of determining what their time and flutes are worth. I was happy to pay Grinter what he asked. I already explained what happens if I come into possession of a flute that I can't keep, and a very good flute player I know has apparently saved $5,000 on her $3100 Olwell flute that I sold her. She could never have afforded it otherwise.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Hypothetically, if she were to sell her flute at some point for a profit would you expect a share? Is that a reasonable expectation given that you made nothing on the transaction? Would it even be ethical for her to sell at a profit ? Or perhaps you have an agreement that the flute must be sold to another player at the original cost?
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by leoj
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"We have local friends and neighbors in rural North Clare. People on a forum are hardly friends and neighbors. They are only internet acquaintances. The sad truth is that people mistake the net for real life. Friends and neighbors have faces. Not user names."
I don't have answers, cocus. But for millions of people the old world of friends and neighbours has gone...to quote from
http://www.koyaanisqatsi.org/aboutus/aboutus.php
"A new untellable world is unfolding. As the human race accelerates into the twenty-first century, we enter a virtual, digital environment, a world where far and near, past, present and future are simultaneous realities. The human center of gravity seems to be blasted into the void. Our bodies are less central to our lives, our physical involvement with an increasing synthetic world grows less. Have we arrived at an unthinkable post-natural and post-human condition? Does this singular event offer to all that will, the extraordinary opportunity to re-name the world in which we live? Are we, appearing to be human, already the cyborgs of the fiction of science?
These are the questions that motivated KOYAANISQATSI, the other films of the Trilogy and, hence, the website that we offer for your participation, inquiry and dialogue. This is our beginning effort to supposit these films into the web, to mainline the QATSI Trilogy.
In closing we offer two reflections that articulate the point of view of this site: one from Elias Canetti, a Nobel Laureate for literature; the other from French philosopher and writer Jacques Ellul.
A tormenting thought: as of a certain point, history was no longer real. Without noticing it, all mankind suddenly left reality.
- Canetti
"...The crisis that we are approaching today is of yet another order. For it entails the transition, not from one form of society and power to another, but to a new environment...The present crisis...is a total crisis triggered by transition to a new and previously unknown environment, the technological environment....The present change of environment is much more fundamental than anything that the race has experienced for the last five thousand years."
- Ellul
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
A Load of Crap.
Yes, the internet amazing. But it won't help if I need to borrow a set of jumper cables or a cup of sugar.
It has been estimated that computers will be owned by about 1.3 billion people by 2010 (BBC reporting). Out of a world population of about 7.5 billion. So maybe one of seven people worldwide will have a computer.
In India, home of the new IT revolution, 245,000 people are employed – out of population of well over a billion. The new technocratic class is tiny. 40% of the population in Bombay have no access to clean water. Over a third of the population (365 million people) live in the most abject poverty.
The internet and corporate globalization hasn’t done much for most people. Most people worldwide don’t even have shoes, let alone computers or cell phones. If this is in fact the dawn of a new age most people are still sleeping.
I haven’t noticed that the internet has seriously mitigated world poverty, hunger, colonialism, racism, drought, disease, imperialism, militarism, or The Yankees chances of winning the World Series.
Your quote is pure psycho-babel drivel .To call it science fiction would be kind.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
True, but is sure helps sell a lot of instruments! Seriously, it has made a big difference in the Irish music world, and in specialized instrument communities. And, oddly, makes local connections as much as far flung ones. Of course, the point of all this is still to learn tunes, and share them playing in a local session.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"Your quote is pure psycho-babel drivel .To call it science fiction would be kind. "
Well, thanks, cocus....
I assume you have not seen the films ? They are amazing, stunningly beautiful.
You seem to have missed the point. I'm not advocating the internet as 'a good thing' which mitigates the problems you mention. (It was never intended as such. It was designed so that the Americans could win a nuclear war)
I don't understand why you assume I'm in favour of technology at all. The point is that humans don't decide what future we get. The future is decided by technology which drags us along in its wake.
But that's a different topic. I was interested in the aspect of buying and selling musical instruments. There are very few trades left (in developed countries) where an independent craftsman can make a living. Mostly, they can't compete with factories or cheap imports. Flutes, guitars, and similar, are one exception. I have made a living selling handmade items (wooden chairs), so I've had to give a lot of thought to the way the economics work.
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
My mother bought our family home for $25,000. Today it'd be worth upwards of $600,000. Should she be then selling it for $25,000.00 so as not to make a profit? If she did she wouldnt be able to afford a house again....
# Posted on July 8th 2008 by bb
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Yes, bb, the same market forces are affecting the price of real-estate. Here in SF a house that sells for $80,000 to $100,000 in the midwest would cast a million or more here. Supply and demand... it's understood. As it relates to myself and this topic, currently I wouldn't be able to replace either of the instruments I play because of the way the market forces are affecting the prices. My question was to ponder on what it is exactly about ourselves that drives these prices so high, and to wonder if our behavior feeds into it. Our excuse seems to always be things like: "but everyone does it" or "if I don't do it someone else will" and "that's just the way it is" etc.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
leoj writes: "Hypothetically, if she were to sell her flute at some point for a profit would you expect a share? Is that a reasonable expectation given that you made nothing on the transaction? Would it even be ethical for her to sell at a profit ? Or perhaps you have an agreement that the flute must be sold to another player at the original cost?"
~~~
These are all questions she'll have to ask herself if that day ever comes. I'm not passing judgment on people who do this, and the issue I'm raising here isn't directed at anyone personally. I'm just raising the issue for discussion.
As to your hypothesis, I suppose she would probably offer it to me first. If someone did such a favor for me I would offer it to them first if I decided to sell it... but that's just me and I don't expect anyone to do what I would do.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Perhaps there is some way of making these fine instruments available to musicians who would otherwise not be able to afford them. As a model, I'm thinking of the subsidies provided to make housing affordable to those who would never be able to live in S.F., for instance--teachers, cops, etc. Not sure about the details...
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by leoj
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"...fine instruments available to musicians who would otherwise not be able to afford them."
What crap!
I'll be happy enough to have this thread die. But before that, here are some interesting facts. The flute was sold out of the Olwell shop on EBay. It belonged to somebody who worked there and it was his own flute. Was it wrong not to have gone to somebody on the wait list? Was he gouging? If Olwell sold all his instruments on EBay they'd all go in the $6,000 range, no question about it.
Rather than thinking of this as an exorbitant price to pay, you should think of being able to buy this flute for a lower price through the wait-list as a great bargain. You just have to wait. Meanwhile any serious musician can use another flute, more readily obtainable, to make music. The high price of premium instruments doesn't deprive anybody of a good, playable instrument. There are other fine instrument besides Olwell. This bellyaching and whining is pure stupidity.
I'd like a vacation house in Southern France. Too bad I can't afford it. Maybe a state subsidy?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I'd be happy enough to let this thread die as well but before we do- if the employee of Olwell waited six to ten years and then sold it on eBay, well fair enough, that's life. If he got a favour from Partick Olwell in that he got the flute early and /or cheap, and then sold it on eBay for a huge market up, if I was Patrick Olwell, he/she would never get another and to be honest, I'd sack them.
Yes, if Patrick Olwell were to put his flutes on eBay he might well sell a few for $6000( which is still a good jump away from €5000 by the way) but he would only sell a few at that price and eventually he would run out of market and/or people with lots of money to spend. But as things seem to be going, if anyone were to buy with the purpose of selling on, they might well soon be in negative equity just like lots of property speculators. If the current economic climate continues or worsens, then the market in over priced instruments will soon fade away or at least be reduced, if even temporarily.
There is no conspiracy theory on my part, I just was curious to know where all the money was made- I have no real interest, i am not a flute player so it won't be affecting me too much !
But there is still a real difference between buying from a dealer and buying from a fellow player, and for all this talk of not taking or asking for the going rate, I can remember countless examples of players selling instruments to trade up or sideways and offering them for what they paid for them or maybe a small few bob extra but nothing like what is going on with some. I myself sold my starter AC Norman concertina for exactly what I paid for it and yet could have held on a few months a made a few bob comparitive for what I paid for it.
But there is positives to both sides. Dealers provide a service; you want a new instrument and there is no one that you know of selling - go to a dealer and pay the rate. No complaints. But let's get away from this bullsh*t of "I'm buying instruments so that players can have them" Yeah right! You're buying them to make a profit and how much you make will depend on your morals. Dealers are no different from everybody else- there are some good 'uns and some bad 'uns. As for the vacation house in France, well keep going the way you are going Cocus and no doubt you will have it soon enough and as for state subsidy..there is answer there but good manners prevent me from pointing it out !
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
.".there is answer there but good manners prevent me from pointing it out " now he discovers manners!
"But let's get away from this bullsh*t of "I'm buying instruments so that players can have them" Yeah right! You're buying them to make a profit and how much you make will depend on your morals"
I think it is you who is piling on a load of crap, your entire reason to post here seems to have more to do with sour grapes against cocus than with the subject of flutes which you have admittedly have no stake in the first place. Furthermore, unless you state you have never sold anything in your life for a profit I suggest you stop the petty moralizing. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money on an item one sells! Obviously you make money from something otherwise you couldn't afford your internet connection.
"Morals" give me a break! Nobody is selling medicine at inflated prices here, but a discretionary product people are willing to pay for! This is just a totally false argument.
As to cocus' stated reasoning about keeping flutes in the hands of players: You question it without merit or evidence which amounts to nothing but cheap slander. I happen to know the facts here better than you do, and trust me, you look foolish vis-a-vis the facts on this matter.
There is no moral code in the world that demands cocus has to sell the flute at a loss or at par. To claim otherwise is the true BS!
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
A flute came up for sale, I pointed out how much above the maker's price it was and posed a question asking what makes the waiting period so expensive, and it's taken personally and people start telling each other they're "full of crap" and they're talking sh*te etc. So my next question is: why does asking my original question seem to touch a raw nerve? If the value of the waiting period is what it is, why couldn't it just be discussed without the personal baggage? Is there something inherently wrong with trying to understand the value of a waiting period?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"Is there something inherently wrong with trying to understand the value of a waiting period?"
Fascinating point. It arose when I came into possession of some land. I was impatient and excited about the prospect of establishing a garden, and I made lists of what I desired. Seeds were relatively cheap. Seedlings, considerably more expensive. Potted trees and shrubs much more expensive again.
Time is money, but time is also one's passing life-time. Some of the seeds I germinated and cherished and planted will eventually become very large trees, but I will not live to see their maturity.
Others grow very fast and are already enormous. Some have grown so large and were originally, as tiny things, planted too close together, that I have to cut them down. All that work and time ends as firewood and brush.
I think it has to do with one's personal scale of values. If playing flute is a powerful inner compulsion, and takes priority over everything else in life, then, that's all that matters, and you sell your house, and everything else, and beg sleeping space on someone's floor, rather than not have the best possible instrument. But very few people have such a strong motivation...
It's a pity that the bamboo flute isn't used for irish music, because then you could make your own, like Okudo Yatsuya does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atsuya_Okuda
http://www.komuso.com/people/Okuda_Atsuya.html
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"Is there something inherently wrong with trying to understand the value of a waiting period?"
Absolutely not! A perfectly valid discussion to have.
But that's not where the discussions was heading, rather some people where putting a negative spin on cocus's motivation in selling the flute to the point where the seller felt he was being badgered.
Also some false statements and accusations were made which, I think, deserved to be addressed.
Value of waiting list? Apparently $3,000-$5,000 above retail.
I remember a keyless Wilkes to go for over $3,000 on ebay not too long ago. What would a fully keyed newer Wilkes go for I wonder, considering the waitlist is 10 years?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"I happen to know the facts here better than you do, and trust me, you look foolish vis-a-vis the facts on this matter." sigh, more sighs. Wouldn't think so
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
When I visit Ireland I always listen to the call-in chat shows as I drive around because I think it gives you a sense of what the current issues are. Last time I was there I listened to a discussion about land with imaginary houses being bought and sold and how the prices for these imaginary houses was escalating at an alarming rate despite the fact that the houses didn't exist except on paper. It reminds me of this discussion because we're talking about something intangible and that the value can be speculated on. There were a lot of very frustrated people ringing in and bemoaning how the speculation on these imaginary homes was driving up the cost of existing homes and pushing them out of reach for ordinary working people that just wanted a place to live.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"sigh, more sighs. Wouldn't think so" you just underscored my point.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack, the housing crisis was created by easy credit and sloppy/shady lending practices which exaggerated the demand equation creating a bubble.
There is no manipulated demand here, just limited timely supply, creating an aftermarket for flutes.
Comparing the market for flutes to the oil and housing markets in my opinion is not a fair nor accurate analogy.
That said we'd all prefer flutes were cheaper and were more easily obtainable. They are not.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sven, are you talking about the housing crisis in the U.S. or what I was referring to that was happening in the suburbs surrounding Dublin?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Interesting you should mention that Phantom. For the last six months or so,a number of financial analysts here in Ireland were pointing out that because the so called Celtic Tiger was very largely dependent on construction, that there was bound to be tears. Of course this was all pooh poohed by the politicians, estate agents and other parties who had a vested interest in maintaining the madness. Now the chickens have come home to roost and it can be seen that there were four parties involved in the whole debacle- the banks, estate agents, builders and politicians- they all were all pushing the action because they were all getting their slice.
Now the poor unfortunates who were given money with hardly any questions asked, are having their houses repossessed or at the least, are in negative equity. The banks give out umbrellas when the weather is fine and take them back when it starts to rain ! Of course nobody forces us into the bank, nobody forces us to borrow and we must take responsibilty for our own actions, but that includes the banks, politicians etc. But their morals are gone missing. It is all about profit and more profit.But they will not be the ones out on the road ! A large percentage of the builders, estate agents etc have become millionaires and will walk away from the pain and will quote the same old mantras of free market etc. But is it? There is no such thing as a free lunch, someone has to pay. What is it they say about sh*t falling downwards?
And as you say Phantom in reference to the radio programmes, the ordinary Joe will and is suffering- the ordinary person who justs wants a roof over their head whilst others live in palatial mansions and because of their connections, get permission to build huge monstrosity of "holiday homes" in rural areas, blighting the landscape, not contributing anything to the community other than for a few weeks each year, leaving them empty for most of the year whilst those "beneath stairs" in the locality are unable to afford their own homes and have to look wistfully at these empty houses all year round. As for the suburbs around Dublin, that is a scary example of how people are exploited even if they do play a part in their own ruination. Apartments near where I live, which weren't selling, have recently been reduced by €100,000(yes, all the noughts are correct) and the builder could still make a profit. Four bed houses have had 150,000 taken off ! Do I feel sorry if builders go belly up? I do for the workers. Will he pour any of his money back in to keep them in work until things get better? I doubt it.
For years, the Irish liked to believe that the English were responsible for all our woes but the root of the problems lie much closer to home.I am very lucky in that I am not in debt to any bank but stll feel strongly about how my fellow man is being treated-just like I don't play the flute but am concerned about where the prices are going.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Thanks for that update, CP, I was wondering how it would sort out. I'm curious to get Sven's response now.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Here are my thoughts on this and I reiterate this has no bearing on the used flute market from an analogy point of view.
There is a complex wheel at work here:
The housing situation in Ireland is invariably linked to the US situation as it is all part of an international banking system.
Following the burst of the stock market bubble , the resulting economic slowdown and then 9/11 the UScentral bank went through a series of interest rate cuts of historic proportions that resulted in a gigantic liquidity flush. In essence what this means all those trillions in cash no longer earned fixed income at a reasonable rate. The money wanted to be invested, th ebanks has easy leverage. Look at banks like Lehman they where 30x leveraged. Consumers were bombarded with easy money, to either refinance their house, or to lure people into bigger homes. With the cheap rates now larger mortgages become more affordable. As we all know many shady practices were facilitated by virtual no government oversight. European banks participated heavily in the US mortgage market as well including subprime.
End result the consumer leveraged themselves up to the hilt.
Economic growth flourished creating sustained demand of construction, consumer goods, housing, immigration through economic opportunity, china, india everybody needed to produce more just a gigantic wheel turning.
And I agree a lot of people got priced out, ugly, ugly.
In the meantime you had a US president spending money like there is no tomorrow, well he believes in the rapture so maybe that's why, but debt obligations for the US government grew from 27 trillion to 54 trillion dollars during Bush, end result: The dollar weakened and weakened. What is traded in dollars? Oil, commodities you name it.All of a sudden you had an inflationary spiral beggining to turn as the weakened dollar drove the prices up,and in the meantime the liquidity flush built excess inventory. Speculators amass bought and build more homes, the excess liquidity created temporary but unsustainable demand. And that's when the bubble burst, too many builders and speculative buyers but not enough real buyers.
The entire system of leverage was built on housing prices having to increase, and when the supply demand equation failed prices dropped and guess what happened? The banks that had 30x leverage built in? They had to de-leverage. The debt that was outstanding was guaranteed by debt ratings. Depending on the debt ratings you have different obligations, once the debt ratings were lowered the banks had to blow it out and/or raise money. Net effect: liquidity crisis! The Fed provided facilities, but the fact is nobody knows what the debt is really worth!
So guess what? The dollar kept falling, the inflation spiral crept up, and valuations continued to sink, and all the European banks had to delever as well..
So here we are, so why one may argue because prices go up in both examples there are similarities, the reality is there entirely different mechanics at work here.
Maybe the simplests explanation and maybe brutal explanation is this: We live in a world of different economic means. Most people in India and china and Africa will enver be able to afford an Olwell flute (and Patrick couldn't meet the demand if they wanted to). Everybody has access to the same flutes at the same price, just need to wait. For those rare occasions, and I mean rare that a keyed flute from a top maker becomes available, some people wo desire to have a better playing instrument are willing to pay a premium and will outprice others who also want to avoid the wait list.
I say it is rare, it is less than a dozen flutes we are talking about each year. How many keyed Wilkes and Olwell's have become available in the open market in the last 2-3 years? I bet less than 10 worldwide.
So keep things in perspective.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I suppose it comes down to taking advantage of a situation to facilitate your purpose for selling an instrument. But just as with the imaginary houses in Dublin, it pushes the game into an area where only people who are willing and able to play with high stakes can participate. The result is the escalation in price, and that leaves a lot of people who just want to play music behind. So be it, but I don’t know if the practice honors the philosophy David attributed to Olwell about making “affordable instruments.” The result is quite the opposite; the once affordable becomes unaffordable – that’s the reality. Sure that’s fine because everyone else is doing it and that’s the way the market works etc., etc… but the bottom line remains unchanged… oh well.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I think that in some way, the discussion is taking and has taken place. We are all right(as in correct) in are own way, we are all expressing what we think is the most acceptable way.We just dont agree on that way ! And sure that's what makes the world go around. But I have to stop now because I want to add a "but"
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"The result is the escalation in price, and that leaves a lot of people who just want to play music behind."
Do you think that if a person cant have an expensive instrument he can't make music? Aren't you a friend of Mick Kinsella's? Micho never had anything but a cheap tin whistle. Mary Bergin. What does Peter Horan play?
Jack, you are the one saying that a premier instrument is necessary for making music. It's just silly to say that I am responsible for the escalation in price or that the high prices will mean players won't have adequate instruments.
There are plenty of good keyed flutes around for $2,000-3,000 -- also not a trivial amount of money. If you want to make music you'll make music, no matter what you can or cannot afford.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Not that Phantom needs me to reply on his behalf but I think Cocus, the problem started with you(but not you personally) advertising an instrument that is something like $3100 new and asking €5200. Not so much that you were wrong to sell an instrument, not that you were wrong to look for that price( because at the initial stages of the discussion we didn't know the route or life of the flute), but Phantom was more just hoping to open debate on how certain types of instruments( particularly flutes and concertinas) were escalating in price, and the resultant fall out. That you had paid say for example €5100 and were looking to recoup 100 for a case or something is not really the point- it was just a prompter to discuss the different mechanisms by which certain instruments are climbing in price and maybe in this case, as to how an Olwell flute which started life at $3100 could now cost €5200 and was it right/acceptable whatever ,that the difference in price was being charged in order to save waiting time?
You said you paid 10% less than the €5200 for it, so fine. How did it get to 4 whatever is what I was curious about. Did someone along the way make a huge profit and if so, would it not be at least understandable, that if they did, that this might be considered unethical or immoral? This has been replied to by way of free market etc. But to my mind that doesn't make it right or indeed ethical.
And the reality is that people without money do get left behind- in all walks of life. Medical being the worst example that comes to mind. If you lose an eye because you can't afford medical care, sure you have another ! Yes, we all did ok before fridges but if you don't have one today, you are in trouble. The same applies to computers, the universities in Ireland are now insisting that you do certain types of mid term assessments/exams via their web site although you are attending in person and are not doing distance learning. What happens if you can't afford a PC? If there ever was a piece of equipment that could be considered a luxury in the homeplace, it is it and yet you will be unable to function properly or as well as others if you don't have one at home. Yes there are PCs on the campus but is it the same? Similarly, we all played cheap instruments such as "penny whistles" at one time but do you think that you will be welcome today in Miltown Malbay if your instrument is slightly off concert? You will like hell ! A lot of string players now have electronic tuners permanently fixed to the head stock, will they want to play with you if your instrument is slightly out?
Another example in Ireland is broadband. How many people in this country don't have it and can't get it ? Thousands. Businesses are complaining. Should they be told that they can get on with business just fine and don't be bellyaching? And so, just as our life demands change, so does our music. Yes, you can make great music on a Stagi or the equivalent and many did, but you won't get to execute rolls etc on them.And so we need to get instruments that will allow us to play with our peers.
The question as I see it is should people( not neccessarily you) exploit this? If dealers are so in love with musical instruments, why don't they buy and sell D whistles? Why is there such a mark up on concertinas and flutes in particular? I accept that there are plenty of simplistic and answers but probably no simple ones. Personally I see dealers very like banks, a neccessary evil but I do try ( not always successfully)to live and let live.
And as you can testify Cocus, I did try to put someone who I know was looking for an Olwell in touch with you and what happened then was going to be between two adults.What I thought or felt was totally irrelevant between you but here, Phantom attempted to open a discussion and I said what I thought, which was-
if you buy and sell instruments for profit, you are involved in the excalation of prices. You are not soley responsible but you play your part. I just wish you would accept that you deal in instruments, that you buy and sell for profit, and as such you have to accept that you do play a part in pushing up prices and it is not like you sell an odd instrument every few years, but you are continously doing it and therefore continually pushing up prices.Yes it is your right, nobody is calling the cops, but accept what it is you do and that not everybody will like it.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I will be even one more person responding to this who really has no business doing so...in that I mean that if Cocus has something to sell and wants to sell it at whatever price, why should anybody care...let the deal be between him and the buyer...I mean you could all think that "gee I would never pay that , I'll just wait", but let the man sell his flute and let someone buy it...
and I do not see where anybody is left behind...if I sell my fiddle for xxx price does that mean that someone else won't be able to play????
what it means is that my fiddle (and the Cocus flute) would enter into a market of "wants" not "needs"
if you buy a home, are you in fact responsible for the escalation of profit if in 10 years you sell for more than you paid? Maybe you guys should all sell your instruments for what you paid and send your money to the US Gov't to help get the economy back on track...
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
..and it seems very childish to enter Mr Cocus' morality into the picture
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sunnybear, I was opening a discussion about the escalating cost of instruments and not David in particular. If you research the discussion forum you will find numerous threads where people are frustrated by the high cost and extreme waiting periods for high quality instruments. Since this is a discussion board about ITM related issues the discussion I was hoping to have is perfectly appropriate. Following the path of an instrument where the value of the waiting period exceeds the retail cost of the instrument is an interesting example. I wasn't attacking David's “morality” by raising this question and I said more than once that he's not doing anything wrong and I'm not suggesting he change what he's doing. All I'm doing is tracking an instrument's value and examining what has contributed to the value of an intangible aspect of that value -- the waiting period.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I should explain how I arrived at the price of the waiting period exceeding the retail price.
3,100 US Dollar = 1,974.89 Euro
5,200 Euro = 8,162.02 US Dollar
When you convert the currency the retail price of the flute is 1,974.89 Euro. The price David is asking is 5,200 Euro If you subtract the retail price from David's asking price you get 3,226 Euro. If you convert that back to dollars you get $5,063.88 - the cost of the waiting period on a flute that originally cost $3100.
If I'm wrong about these calculations please let me know.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Part of the increase, not all of it, is also explained by the devastating decline in the dollar:
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&to=EUR&amt=1&t=5y
Take the Euro 5 years ago at say 0.9 (never mind that it used to be weaker than the dollar) a $3,100 price would have resulted in a dollar price of $4,359 (around .64 now) if one were to keep the euro price for the flute the same.
Now obviously the euro price went up as well so you get a double hit here as any increase is further magnified by the declining dollar value....
Now tack on inflation of 3% a year on top of that....compund it..then market forces...it all adds up..
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Blackwood
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I paid $3100 for a fully-keyed Olwell last year.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Jack, how you arrived at your figures doesn't matter at all to me...I assume, thought that you did it right the first time..
what I find interesting is that people attack Cocus and they are not even interested in purchasing the flute ...they are just interested in making their point on some morality issue
do you shop at Wal Mart? buy Chinese? purchase gas for your car?
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Sunnybear, I'm not going to tell you again -- I'M NOT ATTACKING COCUS! I'm raising the issue of the value of a waiting period. Cocus isn't the only person who has added to the price of an instrument based on the value of the waiting period. It happens with other instruments as well, and unfortunately it happens a lot. I'm just raising the issue for discussion because this is a discussion forum, this issue has frustrated a lot of people and this provides an opportunity to discuss it. So please dismount and take your high-horse back to the barn... thank you.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
right along....since you're yelling, I'm sure to oblige..
but what else is interesting is that you think I was singling you out...hahaha..feeling a bit like you need to defend yourself, I suppose...
see ya at the barn
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
....and so why do you not discuss the issue on a seperate post instead of singling out the original poster who just so happens only wants to sell a flute? His flute, his asking price...what's the problem?
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
It's a discussion board... hello? If someone wants to sell an instrument and not have it become a topic for discussion they shouldn't post it on a discussion board.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
hello
so why do you not ask questions regarding the flute itself rather than taking issue with the price the seller is asking...oh I know...because you have no interest in discussing the flute for sale...you want to hijack the thread by turning it into an issue as to why he is asking so much..
that is my point (and actually my own hijack...oooh no pun intended..."hijack")
thanks for the clarity...
back to my barn
see ya there
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
and , really, Cocus did not state in his post that he wanted to discuss how much he was asking, or as to why he had the right to ask whatever he wanted for it...
I am sure that he would discuss his flute, but you are not even a potential buyer...and you do not have questions regarding his flute...you just want to take issue with him and his asking price
so get off yer own soapbox wouldya
see ya at the barn
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
No one here ever sets the parameters for discussions on threads they start. Why is Cocus any different?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Having waded through this thread, and vacillated on the pros and cons, I would suggest that heretofore, anyone wanting to sell an instrument on this board, do so without mentioning price, which would be disclosed and discussed soley through the PM system.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by jtrout
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
mandolincafe.com is a privately owned and administered website that has a very successful classified section; listing instruments for sale in the discussion boards is not allowed. Having classified's is a great service to for sellers, buyers, and just folks learning about their instruments and the market for them. It's nice to have both, and nice to have them separated.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Separating the two may be a good idea, but I have found this discussion interesting and informative. I think this was the right place for these issues to be discussed, at least in this instance because of the issue of the significant premium.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by leoj
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
The thread has been about beaten to death. Nobody asked me what the cost of the flute would be today. Jack never asked me about that He is totally wrong about $3,100. This flute has beautiful hand-made keys for the C and Bb, both right hand touch. It is also a four part "Pratten" flute (two part center section). Neither of these features is offered as an option. The two keys and two-part center are custom features. Assuming you'd be able to convince Olwell to make another flute like this, the price would be about $4,000. It is a spectacular flute.
The big jump in price occurred when the flute was offered on Ebay by an Olwell associate who got a new flute (with no waiting) with a different key arrangement. The flute sold in excess of €4,000 ($6,000) on the open market. I had nothing to do with that.
Is it rocket science to see that demand is generally what drives up the price? As with most other things in life. It is an unkind world and people with money can afford to buy more expensive things than those without money. But I'm sure there are very few of us who are following this on the net who are unable to afford a good playable instrument. I don't know what the point of all this has been or what anybody has learned from this futile exercise.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by cocus
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
David, why do you find it so appalling to discuss the intrinsic value of the waiting period? Wouldn't it ultimately be beneficial to have an understanding of it for any potential buyers?
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
"The thread has been about beaten to death"
not quite yet, evidently
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
Right sunnybear... beaten to death... just like your high-horse.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
So...anyone want to loan me the cash so I can buy this flute from Cocus and end this thread? Any takers? I can pay you back in U.S. dollars
# Posted on July 12th 2008 by celtic marine
Re: For Sale: Patrick Olwell 6-key Blackwood Flute, Pratten, Exc. Cond.
I never take part in these discussions period. This was brought to my attention and I feel I am obligated to address this. Dont you rememeber me Mr Cocus ? I had the 4 keyed Murray flute for sale last yr @$1800 which you informed me was way overpriced. Peter Maguire.
# Posted on July 14th 2008 by Belfastpeter