The Session >> Discussions >> multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Comments
multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Well the old Fostex 8 track taper died.... The way I have been playing lately maybe for the better
Anyway. Am looking a New Fostex, Boss and a few other.
Has anyone been using any of these or has something else that gives me some multi-instrument control, not too hard to use, and maybe does the burning even though that is not a hard requirement since I can dump music into media player or Music Match if need be.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Yeah, everything is headed digital. Are you doing a lot of overdubbing type stuff, or are you doing a lot of simultaneous recording of instruments on multiple tracks? If you are mostly doing overdubbing, then you can just do that with software on your computer and a good input mic. You can do simultaneous multitrack recording on your computer too, if you get a sound card that is made for it. Or there are numerous relatively inexpensive multitrack digital recorders out there.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
I have a zoom 8 track (think it's called MRS-8). It records onto SD flash cards. It works pretty well and I think they can be had for $200.
Since it sounds like you are used to working with a tape-based recorder, you should be aware that the digital boxes, while they look superficially similar to the old analog boxes, are a fair bit more complex. The user interface tends to be funky -- cryptic combinations of buttons, input wheels, etc. It's not all that bad, just something you must slog through to learn. And of course the benefits are great -- you are recording high quality digital audio without the degradation and failure modes of analog tape.
There is quite a variety of competing solutions in the $200-500 price range. I think that the Boss and Fostex stuff are sort of the accepted leaders, but there are also Korg, Zoom and Tascam.
Or you could record using your PC, using one of the DAW packages like Sonar or ProTools. You would have a nicer user interface and higher quality sound, but you will probably spend a fair amount more money if you go that route.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
I use Cakewalk recording software on my PC. I have for about 10 years now.
I use a Tascam studio recording board with the studio output fed to the sound card. I plug everything into the board and record from that. I just use a normal sound card (these days they are pretty good) but the people who make SoundBlaster cards make an external sound card with actual instrument and microphone jacks
The thing about recording onto your computer is that the CD burning tools, MP3 publishing, and all that is right there. Also, with Cakewalk I have a great interface for editing the final tracks. I can cut and paste sections, even see the actual sound wave and make the edit right on the leading edge of the wave. It's even better than the old reel to reel editing station I used to use in professional studios in the 80s.
another nice part of digital recording is that you lose the analog hiss. You can also bounce alot of tracks without that buildup of hiss that you get with an analog tape recording
I also have used, although not for a long time, a digital 12 track recorder that had 4 separate inputs. That lets you record 4 tracks with separate volumes that can be remixed. They now make them with CD burners on board. They are probably reasonably priced nowdays, too. Mine was made by Korg if you want to look into what they offer these days.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
You folks give me too much credit!
I use the thing for recording practices etc. But once in a while (more a few years again than now) I need the ability to separately track a number of instruments or patch a mixing panel with several instruments in. The ability to have effects sounds really nice.
The variety in the price range is what got me to ask for the advice. I can live without a burner because I can just patch into a computer when i need to. However, I am more concerned with features, ease of use and overall quality.
It always seems with the techie stuff that there are sacrifices made a the expense of end users and I would hate to buy something on the inexpensive side, and find out I need to hang another equally priced something-or-other, or buy some software to make the thing work.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Take a look at the Zoom that crazy_fingerz mentioned above. It's a portable field recorder, and there's a multi-track version with effects. Seems to have what you're looking for.
But check this out, it's a new multi-track Zoom recorder with a built-in CD burner and a truckload of features, in 8 and 16 track versions. I'm tempted to buy this one myself!
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Tascam finally started listening to me. Or somebody. The new DP-02 and DP-02CF models allegedly present a simple interface that looks and works like a tape recorder. Under 500 bucks, street price, I think.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Hey Zip, If you're not looking to do much more than what you said, why not use Audacity - records, multitracks, slows down changes pitch & a lot more. Can't beat the price
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
I have had for about 2 1/2 years a Fostex MR8HD, I think they are in the $350 range these days... still possibly the best bargain in the price range, as it has the ability to record four tracks at a time.
I use it to record a CD just about every month of our sessions at IAANJ in Rockaway NJ, and the thing is a workhorse and has never failed me. I have failed it a few times however. Can't blame the machine though. There is a lot to learn and absorb on any of these, but it is among the more user friendly of these type recorders. Best to learn them on a "need to know basis" working with the manual. Fostex also has an online board for very great advice, software updates etc.
It has no on board effects that you might find on a regular mixer, but it is always best to record straight, no effects, you can add your bass, reverb etc. later... actually it does have reverb, but add it later in the mixing where needed.
It has no CD burner, but they make one that does for a little more money. I was always of the mind that it is just something else that can break, and since I download the tracks and edit with Audacity anyway, I may as well use the CD burner on the PC. Then again if you will not have access to a PC for a bit it could come in handy. There is a 40Gig hard drive on this though and it holds tons of music. There is also a CD burner port in the back so you can just plug one in and use that as needed.
Any of these machines are also only as good as the person recording though, you need to learn about mike placement most importantly. I thought at first it sounded crappy (though better than any tape recorder, I still expected more) until I got a feel for how to work with the mikes. It was lots of experimenting. I was advised by some recording engineers who really knew thier business that really high end mikes are lost on this porta studio type things, to just get some reasonably priced condenser mikes. I settled on four Samson CO1mikes, about $70 each if you shop right, I think I paid about $100 each, you can find them for less. COndenser mikes are the general way to go with these machine, for some reason the preamps in just about all of them are very weak. There must be a reason, since they are all that way, but if you use regular mikes you will get very very low volume. The machine you pick should therefore have phanton power too, to run the condenser mikes.
You also need to be able to sense how to mike in various different settings. it comes with time, I am still learning, in different situations, but it's all fun and things keep improving. Some rooms still are difficult to get a good recording in, others better, these are things you begin to sense after a short while.
And to learn how to do EQ and mix is another learning curve, I'd say there is more to learn about live recording in general rather than what you will have to learn about operating the recorder itself.... that is a piece of cake compared to learning how to get a good recording and to mix it, edit and do EQ properly. Still, these machines and moderately decent mikes will give you amazing CD quality sound. A great book is one of those Idiots Guides to Home Recording, worth every penny.
Our room at IAANJ is a big open hall with plaster walls, when I record there, the recordings come out sounding lousy, very tinny and brittle. The art of it is knowing how to fix it after, and it's like anything, you practice, experiment and improve, it can be tedious and frustrating at first, but very rewarding, even addictive if you hang in with it.
Recording contraptions are like my "camera".... I want to catch and save everything great. I regret terribly not doing it long ago, even with a cassette recorder, so many memories of great music, but nothing to go listen to. Recording musicians in a natural setting, not studio perfect, just real, not even famous musicians, but just people, to me these are a lot more fun to listen back to than studio produced CDs. I am 100% addicted to recording, it's wonderful, and the treasury of live recorded music I can listen to anytime, it's worth all the hours put into it.
Well, if you are on a budget, I vote Fostex MR8HD. Even if you aren't, it's a good deal. You won't believe the quality.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
irisnevins
Thanks for the info. I do alot of live soundwork so I have the mike work and EQ, but have had little occasion to record The MR8HD was one of my lead candidates. I also use Audacity.
While I have been playing non-itm for over 43 years (cringe....) and played irish-esque when necessary, I have been serious with ITM on Box for about two years. Audacity has a great speed adjustment since my teacher can be unbelieveable brisk when he wants to see how well I can pick something up by ear.
Strange though. Recording makes me unbelievably tense. No lies I suppose! my bigger issue than the tech side. I am an engineer by training and can handle the tech side. Its the emotional side I have trouble with. Herself, a school teacher says she would have spotted me as AD if she had me in one of her classes.
I will probably go shopping in the next few days.
How long a ride is Rockaway from Highland Park NJ or Port Jervis? I get there a few times a year and would like to stop in on your sessions if it works. It seems like you are sort of half-way between them.
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Hi.... it's about an hour from PJ.... I used to live there too! Long ago! and Cuddebackville too, which you will know if in PJ! Another lifetime.
Highland Park, not sure, but should be under an hour.
I always have that contraption with me.... we play this Sat. July 4th, with the incredible fiddlers, the Killackey Brothers, John and Brian. They were mentored by Willie Kelly and though still teens, they are great. Why not come then.
We also will have a concert on July 26th with Mary Bergin, Alec Finn, and Johnny McDonough, which, if they wish I will record, just for them though, can't give out copies, but you can see the routine there.
Anyway maybe you can fill me in on some of what you know about recording that I don't.... the learning curve is really never ending!!
Recording... well, it relaxes me, honestly, well....usually. Most things can be fixed up pretty well, so I don't worry much.
you can email me off group if you like, and send your "real" email address and I will add you to the list, it goes out at least monthly.
multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Well the old Fostex 8 track taper died.... The way I have been playing lately maybe for the better
Anyway. Am looking a New Fostex, Boss and a few other.
Has anyone been using any of these or has something else that gives me some multi-instrument control, not too hard to use, and maybe does the burning even though that is not a hard requirement since I can dump music into media player or Music Match if need be.
Thanks for any help on his
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by zippydw
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Wow, I thought I was out-of-date with my 4-track minidisc recorder!
Everything seems to be going to digital recording straight to hard drive, both in software and dedicated hardware.
Are you looking for studio gear or something portable?
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Marklar
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Yeah, everything is headed digital. Are you doing a lot of overdubbing type stuff, or are you doing a lot of simultaneous recording of instruments on multiple tracks? If you are mostly doing overdubbing, then you can just do that with software on your computer and a good input mic. You can do simultaneous multitrack recording on your computer too, if you get a sound card that is made for it. Or there are numerous relatively inexpensive multitrack digital recorders out there.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Reverend
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
I have a zoom 8 track (think it's called MRS-8). It records onto SD flash cards. It works pretty well and I think they can be had for $200.
Since it sounds like you are used to working with a tape-based recorder, you should be aware that the digital boxes, while they look superficially similar to the old analog boxes, are a fair bit more complex. The user interface tends to be funky -- cryptic combinations of buttons, input wheels, etc. It's not all that bad, just something you must slog through to learn. And of course the benefits are great -- you are recording high quality digital audio without the degradation and failure modes of analog tape.
There is quite a variety of competing solutions in the $200-500 price range. I think that the Boss and Fostex stuff are sort of the accepted leaders, but there are also Korg, Zoom and Tascam.
Or you could record using your PC, using one of the DAW packages like Sonar or ProTools. You would have a nicer user interface and higher quality sound, but you will probably spend a fair amount more money if you go that route.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Wow, was just surfing around... Prices have certainly come down!
An 8 track Fostex with CD-R burner for $400, and a Tascam for $250 at Music123. I'm sure prices are similar elsewhere!
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Reverend
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
I use Cakewalk recording software on my PC. I have for about 10 years now.
I use a Tascam studio recording board with the studio output fed to the sound card. I plug everything into the board and record from that. I just use a normal sound card (these days they are pretty good) but the people who make SoundBlaster cards make an external sound card with actual instrument and microphone jacks
The thing about recording onto your computer is that the CD burning tools, MP3 publishing, and all that is right there. Also, with Cakewalk I have a great interface for editing the final tracks. I can cut and paste sections, even see the actual sound wave and make the edit right on the leading edge of the wave. It's even better than the old reel to reel editing station I used to use in professional studios in the 80s.
another nice part of digital recording is that you lose the analog hiss. You can also bounce alot of tracks without that buildup of hiss that you get with an analog tape recording
I also have used, although not for a long time, a digital 12 track recorder that had 4 separate inputs. That lets you record 4 tracks with separate volumes that can be remixed. They now make them with CD burners on board. They are probably reasonably priced nowdays, too. Mine was made by Korg if you want to look into what they offer these days.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
You folks give me too much credit!
I use the thing for recording practices etc. But once in a while (more a few years again than now) I need the ability to separately track a number of instruments or patch a mixing panel with several instruments in. The ability to have effects sounds really nice.
The variety in the price range is what got me to ask for the advice. I can live without a burner because I can just patch into a computer when i need to. However, I am more concerned with features, ease of use and overall quality.
It always seems with the techie stuff that there are sacrifices made a the expense of end users and I would hate to buy something on the inexpensive side, and find out I need to hang another equally priced something-or-other, or buy some software to make the thing work.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by zippydw
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Take a look at the Zoom that crazy_fingerz mentioned above. It's a portable field recorder, and there's a multi-track version with effects. Seems to have what you're looking for.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Marklar
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Here's the Zoom multi-track field recorder:
http://www.activemusician.com/item--EM.H4
But check this out, it's a new multi-track Zoom recorder with a built-in CD burner and a truckload of features, in 8 and 16 track versions. I'm tempted to buy this one myself!
http://www.activemusician.com/item--SM.ZHD8CD
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Marklar
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Tascam finally started listening to me. Or somebody. The new DP-02 and DP-02CF models allegedly present a simple interface that looks and works like a tape recorder. Under 500 bucks, street price, I think.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Hey Zip, If you're not looking to do much more than what you said, why not use Audacity - records, multitracks, slows down changes pitch & a lot more. Can't beat the price
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Mad Baloney
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
I have had for about 2 1/2 years a Fostex MR8HD, I think they are in the $350 range these days... still possibly the best bargain in the price range, as it has the ability to record four tracks at a time.
I use it to record a CD just about every month of our sessions at IAANJ in Rockaway NJ, and the thing is a workhorse and has never failed me. I have failed it a few times however. Can't blame the machine though. There is a lot to learn and absorb on any of these, but it is among the more user friendly of these type recorders. Best to learn them on a "need to know basis" working with the manual. Fostex also has an online board for very great advice, software updates etc.
It has no on board effects that you might find on a regular mixer, but it is always best to record straight, no effects, you can add your bass, reverb etc. later... actually it does have reverb, but add it later in the mixing where needed.
It has no CD burner, but they make one that does for a little more money. I was always of the mind that it is just something else that can break, and since I download the tracks and edit with Audacity anyway, I may as well use the CD burner on the PC. Then again if you will not have access to a PC for a bit it could come in handy. There is a 40Gig hard drive on this though and it holds tons of music. There is also a CD burner port in the back so you can just plug one in and use that as needed.
Any of these machines are also only as good as the person recording though, you need to learn about mike placement most importantly. I thought at first it sounded crappy (though better than any tape recorder, I still expected more) until I got a feel for how to work with the mikes. It was lots of experimenting. I was advised by some recording engineers who really knew thier business that really high end mikes are lost on this porta studio type things, to just get some reasonably priced condenser mikes. I settled on four Samson CO1mikes, about $70 each if you shop right, I think I paid about $100 each, you can find them for less. COndenser mikes are the general way to go with these machine, for some reason the preamps in just about all of them are very weak. There must be a reason, since they are all that way, but if you use regular mikes you will get very very low volume. The machine you pick should therefore have phanton power too, to run the condenser mikes.
You also need to be able to sense how to mike in various different settings. it comes with time, I am still learning, in different situations, but it's all fun and things keep improving. Some rooms still are difficult to get a good recording in, others better, these are things you begin to sense after a short while.
And to learn how to do EQ and mix is another learning curve, I'd say there is more to learn about live recording in general rather than what you will have to learn about operating the recorder itself.... that is a piece of cake compared to learning how to get a good recording and to mix it, edit and do EQ properly. Still, these machines and moderately decent mikes will give you amazing CD quality sound. A great book is one of those Idiots Guides to Home Recording, worth every penny.
Our room at IAANJ is a big open hall with plaster walls, when I record there, the recordings come out sounding lousy, very tinny and brittle. The art of it is knowing how to fix it after, and it's like anything, you practice, experiment and improve, it can be tedious and frustrating at first, but very rewarding, even addictive if you hang in with it.
Recording contraptions are like my "camera".... I want to catch and save everything great. I regret terribly not doing it long ago, even with a cassette recorder, so many memories of great music, but nothing to go listen to. Recording musicians in a natural setting, not studio perfect, just real, not even famous musicians, but just people, to me these are a lot more fun to listen back to than studio produced CDs. I am 100% addicted to recording, it's wonderful, and the treasury of live recorded music I can listen to anytime, it's worth all the hours put into it.
Well, if you are on a budget, I vote Fostex MR8HD. Even if you aren't, it's a good deal. You won't believe the quality.
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by irisnevins
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
irisnevins
Thanks for the info. I do alot of live soundwork so I have the mike work and EQ, but have had little occasion to record The MR8HD was one of my lead candidates. I also use Audacity.
While I have been playing non-itm for over 43 years (cringe....) and played irish-esque when necessary, I have been serious with ITM on Box for about two years. Audacity has a great speed adjustment since my teacher can be unbelieveable brisk when he wants to see how well I can pick something up by ear.
Strange though. Recording makes me unbelievably tense. No lies I suppose! my bigger issue than the tech side. I am an engineer by training and can handle the tech side. Its the emotional side I have trouble with. Herself, a school teacher says she would have spotted me as AD if she had me in one of her classes.
I will probably go shopping in the next few days.
How long a ride is Rockaway from Highland Park NJ or Port Jervis? I get there a few times a year and would like to stop in on your sessions if it works. It seems like you are sort of half-way between them.
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by zippydw
Re: multitrack recording machines revisited-need current experience
Hi.... it's about an hour from PJ.... I used to live there too! Long ago! and Cuddebackville too, which you will know if in PJ! Another lifetime.
Highland Park, not sure, but should be under an hour.
I always have that contraption with me.... we play this Sat. July 4th, with the incredible fiddlers, the Killackey Brothers, John and Brian. They were mentored by Willie Kelly and though still teens, they are great. Why not come then.
We also will have a concert on July 26th with Mary Bergin, Alec Finn, and Johnny McDonough, which, if they wish I will record, just for them though, can't give out copies, but you can see the routine there.
Anyway maybe you can fill me in on some of what you know about recording that I don't.... the learning curve is really never ending!!
Recording... well, it relaxes me, honestly, well....usually. Most things can be fixed up pretty well, so I don't worry much.
you can email me off group if you like, and send your "real" email address and I will add you to the list, it goes out at least monthly.
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by irisnevins