I play mandolin , am really not that familiar with the ettiquette of tradition and am wondering a couple things , about what is most widely accepted/expected in ITM :
1. When the mandolin isn't playing the melody, what is most often done in ITM ~ chords ? If so, crosspick , strum , pick drone strings?
2. And, or, do all the lead instruments play the melody nonstop ~ or ~ does one take a lead break and pass the tune around ?
3. Is it different for casual performance than it is for sessions? I don't go to sessions, yet, but play with friends , sometimes as the only lead instrument , next to a guitar player , but sometimes another banjo player sits in also, and in future, may collect more and more friends to join. Do I just keep playing the tune throughout ?
You have a lot of freedom in a session - basically it is, or should be, friends playing music together for their own pleasure. Remember, you're not doing a gig or performance in front of an audience, although if you're playing in a pub there are usually customers, who sometimes show their appreciation.
A straight "bread-and-butter" mainstream answer....
1) Generally, mandolin is a melody instrument, so would playing the tune. Obviously it can back, if no one else is doing so.
2) No "breaks," all play the tune "non-stop."
3) Clearly it's up to you, but this is primarily a tune based tradition. Everything else is optional!
(Ref 2, this may relate to there being 7773 tunes currently listed on this site!)
Play tenor banjo but was thinking of getting a mandolin and playing it in fiddle tuning for a different flavour at our session. Find the banjo is a little unsuitable for some slow tunes and occassional accompaniment, question is is it loud enough? As a banjo player I am used to being heard -can the little mandolin be heard at a session. I used to mess around with one at home years ago and they sound lovely but do they pack enough volume for acoustic sessions? (Don't mean to hijack the thread by the way)!!
I play mando, and I generally play the melody (no breaks to show off, that's a bluegrass thing), but if there seems to be an excess of melody players I will switch to playing rhythm. For this I use a sort of back-picking strumming pattern, with the emphases on smoothness of sound instead of the choppy style of Bluegrass players (which is what I assume you are coming from).
As for the loudness issue, it depends on several things. Some mandolins are louder than others, some playing styles are louder than others, outdoor verses indoor (indoor generally being louder) and the other instruments you are playing with . You will never be as loud as the banjo you are used to, but you can always here your self playing, even if other people can't.
Arlo
In response to number two-
At one of the sessions I frequent we do something like passing the tune around. Usually this is in the form of each instrument type playing "solos". For example, we may start off with everyone playing the tune then the second time just the flutes and whistles will play it etc. This session is held at a local restaurant and is really more of a performance for the patrons, but I find it nice and I don't see why it wouldn't work in a different setting.
1. When not playing the melody, do not underestimate the important role of sitting back and listening to tunes you do not know. Do not feel obliged to play something all night. Listen to tunes you do not know and work on them. Learn them. Strumming chords or playing counter melody on mandolin is acceptable in most peoples' view but don't think of it as an easy task to avoid playing tunes. Accompaniment takes effort and still requires knowledge of the tune you're backing.
2. Unless it is a formal performance, everyone usually plays the melody. Do be aware that tunes are usually put in "sets" [i.e change of tunes occur midway through a set.]
3. A group of friends playing tunes together is a session so, what you're doing is basically what sessioning is all about. Only, in a pub, you may not know the other musicians and there may be a certain standard required of you. Its up to you how many times you wish to play the tune and how many you want to put together [usually 2, 3 or 4 is enough with repeats 3 times on each tune.] A performance will be more formal and you get to discuss what you want to do with the other musicians before playing it. A lot of practice would go into performing and makes the difference between spontaneous and organized.
Plenty of sound advice here, but since I play mandolin too, I'll venture a response. Unison melody playing is the standard, though mandolin is a bit of a newcomer to Irish music, so there's no orthodox tradition for mandolin per se.
However, just as with guitar, backing this music is really difficult, and really requires more knowledge of the tune than playing melody, not less, to do it well. I'd say a mandolin strumming chords is even more dangerous in a session than guitar if chords, modes, and timing are off (and when someone shows up and chords at sessions I attend, they usually are off).
To my taste, an Alec Finn type of backing would be nicest from a mandolin, something I've rarely heard (check out his playing if you haven't hear it!).
I'm lucky to have two amazing mandolin players locally as role models, and I have never heard either of them back tunes with chords. On the rare occasion they don't know a tune, they don't play.
In the end, I think the best thing is to go to sessions in your neighborhood, and listen - what's done there? Even if there is no mandolin player there, over time, you will get a fell for what is appropriate for that session.
this very night whilst listening to Geanntrai,GerryOConnor banjo played;;;;;;;;shock horror a harmony.
absolutely disgraceful,such things should be rewarded by taking the musician outside,and forcing him to listen to Barry Manilow, until he regains his sanity.
harmony in ITM,It shouldnt be allowed,the music should be preserved in aspic,and never allowed to change,anyone would think we were living in the 21stcentury.
yours disgusted TunbridgeWells
jjoice----As you stated originalyin your series of possibilities,
all the above are very good. The problem being, as someone pointed out, that chording and or special effects are only appreciated when done correctly. Since you have reference to the notes, and not the chords, melody is the safest choice. Only when you have digested and understand a tune completely, is chording going to sound good, and if you are among caring and competent musicians who gladly pass around the leads, you will be all the more appreciated.
Everone playing melody at the same time is NOT my idea of good music----supportive interplay IS.
good luck & keep working, It will pay off.
I absolutely hate chord-strumming on mandolin. Mind you, I absolutely hate chord-strumming on anything. Just learn all the tunes is my advice. 50 or 60 years should cover it.
I thought I would mention that mandolin player Marla Fibish is hosting the session tonight at the Plough & Stars in SF; if you can get there, it will explain a lot! She hosts a session once a month.
"harmony in ITM,It shouldnt be allowed,the music should be preserved in aspic,and never allowed to change,anyone would think we were living in the 21stcentury"
"Play tenor banjo but was thinking of getting a mandolin and playing it in fiddle tuning for a different flavour"
How is tuning a mandolin "fiddle" style different? Isn't it already set up that way? Or do folks tune mandolins differently in ITM?
Thanks everybody, a lot ! You all surely gave me the proper standing with my mandolin . A couple things, just for the record ; I do not play bluegrass, and, I don't play next to a banjo player but on rare occasion that he shows up. I am (back) in a duo with a guitar player who sings trad folk tunes, when he's not playing chords to my tunes, but still, I have to learn to back him up.
So, I'm wondering, if I may ask a little further, what is normally done in the occasion of a mandolin playing next to a self accompanyiing singer ??? For now I just cross pick or strum chords /or part chords (drones?)...is what seems nice.
Thanks again.
It's worth checking out Simon Mayor and Paul Kelly, both excellent mandolin players. Simon Mayor has a tutor 'New Celtic Mandolin' that's pretty good.
In answer to you latest question, I've just retuned my mandolin to GDAD to try some flat picking accompaniment (in the privacy of my own house) and learning tunes on. It seems to work well (I seem to remember Johnny Moynihan used to play in this tuning years ago) and if you only had a couple of other tune players or a singer would make a good accompaniment, although I'd just be tempted to capo my bouzouki at the 5th fret and go from there.
To be sure, it can sound great; there's Andy Irvine, Brian McDonagh, and Paul Kotapish to name a few. But I still say it's way more difficult to do well than playing melody, and I don't see it as an alternative to learning tunes.
John McGann has a dvd that covers rhythm on mandolin: http://elderly.com/videos/items/618-DVD2.htm . I haven't seen it yet, but McGann is a fine player. That being said, I would strongly advise not playing chords in a session unless you're playing with close friends. Generally, chording is just not accepted. And there's some good reasons for that...
Mandolin can actually be a really nice instrument for accompaning tunes. Accompaning doesn't just mean strumming, it means everything from strumming a chord to playing a counter-melody to harmony etc.
But of course Planxty, Sweeney's Men, Patrick Street, Andy Irvine, Paul Brady, Dennis Cahill, Brian McDonagh and so on have nothing to do with traditional music so what I'm saying is completely wrong, the mandolin should only be strictly used as a melody instrument, if at all.....(Note irony)
Well, anyway, this morning at the farmers' market , in front of a microphone even, I managed to experiment alternately with tremelo and crosspicking between part chords and melody and .... (I guess if it's not an exact harmony, it fits into...) 'counter melody'. I had lots of fun this time, filling up the accompanyment to my friends vocals, and his fingerpicking guitar style, and I think by his reaction, I managed to hit the Sweet Spot. I'll continue in this vein when he takes a turn at singing. I think I'm getting it....
"Play tenor banjo but was thinking of getting a mandolin and playing it in fiddle tuning for a different flavour"
>How is tuning a mandolin "fiddle" style different? Isn't it already set up that way? Or do folks tune mandolins differently in ITM?
I wonder if it at all had to do with any retuning of the mandolin, rather that the fact that tenor banjo may be tuned CGDA (like a viola), and that the poster simply wanted to play mandolin (i.e. fiddle tuning!).
How is it done in ITM ?
How is it done in ITM ?
I play mandolin , am really not that familiar with the ettiquette of tradition and am wondering a couple things , about what is most widely accepted/expected in ITM :
1. When the mandolin isn't playing the melody, what is most often done in ITM ~ chords ? If so, crosspick , strum , pick drone strings?
2. And, or, do all the lead instruments play the melody nonstop ~ or ~ does one take a lead break and pass the tune around ?
3. Is it different for casual performance than it is for sessions? I don't go to sessions, yet, but play with friends , sometimes as the only lead instrument , next to a guitar player , but sometimes another banjo player sits in also, and in future, may collect more and more friends to join. Do I just keep playing the tune throughout ?
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
You have a lot of freedom in a session - basically it is, or should be, friends playing music together for their own pleasure. Remember, you're not doing a gig or performance in front of an audience, although if you're playing in a pub there are usually customers, who sometimes show their appreciation.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
A straight "bread-and-butter" mainstream answer....
1) Generally, mandolin is a melody instrument, so would playing the tune. Obviously it can back, if no one else is doing so.
2) No "breaks," all play the tune "non-stop."
3) Clearly it's up to you, but this is primarily a tune based tradition. Everything else is optional!
(Ref 2, this may relate to there being 7773 tunes currently listed on this site!)
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
Tom, that is exactly the descriptive guidence I was looking for, thanks !
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
Play tenor banjo but was thinking of getting a mandolin and playing it in fiddle tuning for a different flavour at our session. Find the banjo is a little unsuitable for some slow tunes and occassional accompaniment, question is is it loud enough? As a banjo player I am used to being heard -can the little mandolin be heard at a session. I used to mess around with one at home years ago and they sound lovely but do they pack enough volume for acoustic sessions? (Don't mean to hijack the thread by the way)!!
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Mac Donn
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
If you're asking if I can be heard with my mandolin? I say, not always, but given that most times I am, I'll stick with it.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
I play mando, and I generally play the melody (no breaks to show off, that's a bluegrass thing), but if there seems to be an excess of melody players I will switch to playing rhythm. For this I use a sort of back-picking strumming pattern, with the emphases on smoothness of sound instead of the choppy style of Bluegrass players (which is what I assume you are coming from).
As for the loudness issue, it depends on several things. Some mandolins are louder than others, some playing styles are louder than others, outdoor verses indoor (indoor generally being louder) and the other instruments you are playing with . You will never be as loud as the banjo you are used to, but you can always here your self playing, even if other people can't.
Arlo
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Fellenbaum
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
In response to number two-
At one of the sessions I frequent we do something like passing the tune around. Usually this is in the form of each instrument type playing "solos". For example, we may start off with everyone playing the tune then the second time just the flutes and whistles will play it etc. This session is held at a local restaurant and is really more of a performance for the patrons, but I find it nice and I don't see why it wouldn't work in a different setting.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by rob_handel
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
1. When not playing the melody, do not underestimate the important role of sitting back and listening to tunes you do not know. Do not feel obliged to play something all night. Listen to tunes you do not know and work on them. Learn them. Strumming chords or playing counter melody on mandolin is acceptable in most peoples' view but don't think of it as an easy task to avoid playing tunes. Accompaniment takes effort and still requires knowledge of the tune you're backing.
2. Unless it is a formal performance, everyone usually plays the melody. Do be aware that tunes are usually put in "sets" [i.e change of tunes occur midway through a set.]
3. A group of friends playing tunes together is a session so, what you're doing is basically what sessioning is all about. Only, in a pub, you may not know the other musicians and there may be a certain standard required of you. Its up to you how many times you wish to play the tune and how many you want to put together [usually 2, 3 or 4 is enough with repeats 3 times on each tune.] A performance will be more formal and you get to discuss what you want to do with the other musicians before playing it. A lot of practice would go into performing and makes the difference between spontaneous and organized.
Hope this has helped somewhat.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by PaddyCmusic
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
jjoyce,
Plenty of sound advice here, but since I play mandolin too, I'll venture a response. Unison melody playing is the standard, though mandolin is a bit of a newcomer to Irish music, so there's no orthodox tradition for mandolin per se.
However, just as with guitar, backing this music is really difficult, and really requires more knowledge of the tune than playing melody, not less, to do it well. I'd say a mandolin strumming chords is even more dangerous in a session than guitar if chords, modes, and timing are off (and when someone shows up and chords at sessions I attend, they usually are off).
To my taste, an Alec Finn type of backing would be nicest from a mandolin, something I've rarely heard (check out his playing if you haven't hear it!).
I'm lucky to have two amazing mandolin players locally as role models, and I have never heard either of them back tunes with chords. On the rare occasion they don't know a tune, they don't play.
In the end, I think the best thing is to go to sessions in your neighborhood, and listen - what's done there? Even if there is no mandolin player there, over time, you will get a fell for what is appropriate for that session.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
this very night whilst listening to Geanntrai,GerryOConnor banjo played;;;;;;;;shock horror a harmony.
absolutely disgraceful,such things should be rewarded by taking the musician outside,and forcing him to listen to Barry Manilow, until he regains his sanity.
harmony in ITM,It shouldnt be allowed,the music should be preserved in aspic,and never allowed to change,anyone would think we were living in the 21stcentury.
yours disgusted TunbridgeWells
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
jjoice----As you stated originalyin your series of possibilities,
all the above are very good. The problem being, as someone pointed out, that chording and or special effects are only appreciated when done correctly. Since you have reference to the notes, and not the chords, melody is the safest choice. Only when you have digested and understand a tune completely, is chording going to sound good, and if you are among caring and competent musicians who gladly pass around the leads, you will be all the more appreciated.
Everone playing melody at the same time is NOT my idea of good music----supportive interplay IS.
good luck & keep working, It will pay off.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by hauke
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
You can play chords if you so desire, even if their are ten other people backing. Their are no rules governing sessions. It is not a sport.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
I absolutely hate chord-strumming on mandolin. Mind you, I absolutely hate chord-strumming on anything. Just learn all the tunes is my advice. 50 or 60 years should cover it.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
jjoyce - is everything clear now?
I thought I would mention that mandolin player Marla Fibish is hosting the session tonight at the Plough & Stars in SF; if you can get there, it will explain a lot! She hosts a session once a month.
http://www.theploughandstars.com/
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
"harmony in ITM,It shouldnt be allowed,the music should be preserved in aspic,and never allowed to change,anyone would think we were living in the 21stcentury"
Hello Mr. Tansey!
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by PaddyCmusic
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
"Play tenor banjo but was thinking of getting a mandolin and playing it in fiddle tuning for a different flavour"
How is tuning a mandolin "fiddle" style different? Isn't it already set up that way? Or do folks tune mandolins differently in ITM?
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by wyogal
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
Thanks everybody, a lot ! You all surely gave me the proper standing with my mandolin . A couple things, just for the record ; I do not play bluegrass, and, I don't play next to a banjo player but on rare occasion that he shows up. I am (back) in a duo with a guitar player who sings trad folk tunes, when he's not playing chords to my tunes, but still, I have to learn to back him up.
So, I'm wondering, if I may ask a little further, what is normally done in the occasion of a mandolin playing next to a self accompanyiing singer ??? For now I just cross pick or strum chords /or part chords (drones?)...is what seems nice.
Thanks again.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
It's worth checking out Simon Mayor and Paul Kelly, both excellent mandolin players. Simon Mayor has a tutor 'New Celtic Mandolin' that's pretty good.
In answer to you latest question, I've just retuned my mandolin to GDAD to try some flat picking accompaniment (in the privacy of my own house) and learning tunes on. It seems to work well (I seem to remember Johnny Moynihan used to play in this tuning years ago) and if you only had a couple of other tune players or a singer would make a good accompaniment, although I'd just be tempted to capo my bouzouki at the 5th fret and go from there.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
Someone said thy hated chord strumming on the mandolin. Listen to Tim O´Brien and see what can be done with a mando.
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by Björn
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
To be sure, it can sound great; there's Andy Irvine, Brian McDonagh, and Paul Kotapish to name a few. But I still say it's way more difficult to do well than playing melody, and I don't see it as an alternative to learning tunes.
# Posted on July 2nd 2008 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
John McGann has a dvd that covers rhythm on mandolin: http://elderly.com/videos/items/618-DVD2.htm . I haven't seen it yet, but McGann is a fine player. That being said, I would strongly advise not playing chords in a session unless you're playing with close friends. Generally, chording is just not accepted. And there's some good reasons for that...
# Posted on July 2nd 2008 by TaoCat
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
Mandolin can actually be a really nice instrument for accompaning tunes. Accompaning doesn't just mean strumming, it means everything from strumming a chord to playing a counter-melody to harmony etc.
But of course Planxty, Sweeney's Men, Patrick Street, Andy Irvine, Paul Brady, Dennis Cahill, Brian McDonagh and so on have nothing to do with traditional music so what I'm saying is completely wrong, the mandolin should only be strictly used as a melody instrument, if at all.....(Note irony)
# Posted on July 2nd 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
Well, anyway, this morning at the farmers' market , in front of a microphone even, I managed to experiment alternately with tremelo and crosspicking between part chords and melody and .... (I guess if it's not an exact harmony, it fits into...) 'counter melody'. I had lots of fun this time, filling up the accompanyment to my friends vocals, and his fingerpicking guitar style, and I think by his reaction, I managed to hit the Sweet Spot. I'll continue in this vein when he takes a turn at singing. I think I'm getting it....
# Posted on July 2nd 2008 by jjoyce
Re: How is it done in ITM ?
"Play tenor banjo but was thinking of getting a mandolin and playing it in fiddle tuning for a different flavour"
>How is tuning a mandolin "fiddle" style different? Isn't it already set up that way? Or do folks tune mandolins differently in ITM?
I wonder if it at all had to do with any retuning of the mandolin, rather that the fact that tenor banjo may be tuned CGDA (like a viola), and that the poster simply wanted to play mandolin (i.e. fiddle tuning!).
# Posted on July 3rd 2008 by jeff_lindqvist