Can any one help .Ive got myself a 5 string banjo and i would like to play irish tunes or songs on it .Are there any music books out there or web sites I do not want the american blue grass stuff it must be irish .Many thanks Des
sullys 5 string banjo, tony sullivan,it is the same fellow who has several tenor banjo books,lives in Macclesfield,England,halshaw music.google HALSHAW MUSIC.Dick Miles
another alternative is to tune it in,g tuning gdgbd,and just start picking with a flat pick by ear,or alternatively use a thumb for down picks and index for up picks,using single sting picking.youwont use your top g string much apart from occasionally incorporating it in a g chord,
Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo - Book & CD by Tom Hanway
Irish 5string music by Chris Grotewohl
Try both of these, they are very good. In addition, if you go to http://www.banjoshangout.org and look at the "Other" section in the forum, there is a lot written about Irish music on a 5 string banjo.
The Sully book teaches a folk accompaniment style similar to the classic Pete Seeger book. The others teach a melodic style of banjo more suited for tunes. You can try them all or take your choice.
The Seeger style is great for singing and is what is used for Irish Folk. Irish Traditional music works better with the melodic style although it is not bad with frailing. Ther eis another frailing style book out there that teaches ITM tunes, but I forget the name.
I would advocate either what aneighbour of mine does which is to use a flat pick,or investigate Single string style or DonReno picking,the reason I would choose this rather than Melodic style is emphasis.the difference is thisthat in melodic style the notes are played as part of rolls,while in single string style the thumb and index finger,alternate, imitating the up and down motion of the flat pick.,this will be ideal for reels.
when reels are flatpicked on a tenor banjo,it is advocated by many tutors that an up down sequence of picking is used,this can be acheived by using Single string style or Don Reno picking.
in melodic stylethe same string is never played twice in a row, it would interfere with the roll.In single string style the thumb and index finge rmight alternate playing the same string for several consecutive notes.
single string work imitates closely what a flat picking guitar player might do on a banjo[joe maphis is one guitar player who actually does flat pick single notes on a banjo].the way Reno and Adcock play the left hand technique is the same as guitar flat picking ,they both play freehand that is,with the left hand not based in chord positions.
Advanced Level "Red Haired Boy" Key of G Single String Style
Notes: Although this melody falls within the Key of G, you'll notice that the scalar pattern is a C scale...This gives the song a Modal sound...which is common in fiddle tunes. Fiddle tunes are a great way to gain facility on your 5-string banjo...and, learning how to play them in different keys will assist you in familiarizing yourself with the fingerboard. Notice the repeat signs (the symbols with the double bars and two dots)...this means you go back to the other two dots and repeat the passage. Upon repeating once, then you'll continue on through the piece. Most fiddle tunes have an AABB structure...and, you'll notice that the repeat dots separate these two parts.
This arrangement uses the Single String approach made popular by Don Reno...use an alternating pattern of your thumb and index finger...
google this
5-STRING BANJO BLUEGRASS Folk of the Wood Online Acoustic Music ..."Red Haired Boy" Key of G Advanced Single String Style · "Loch Lavan Castle" Key of Am ... "Introduction to the 5-String Banjo" Tablature Transcriptions ...
www.folkofthewood.com/page5304.htm - 26k
Hey Des please don't waste your time if you are not for the bluegrass, I used to play it for 5 years and to play irish tunes on 5-string is completely different, please check out my web www.myspace.com/karolinabanjoplayer and contact me, I'll give you all the help you need.
It can be very enjoyable and you can achieve very IRISH sound on it. Don't follow bluegrass books!!!
The books that I mentioned above do teach a melodic style, but that means that the melody is played note for note with the fiddle and while Bill Keith and Bobby Thompson did add some specific traits to the music, it does very well with ITM too.
The problem is that in order to play ITM well on the five string, you have to have a high level of skill to start. Melodic banjo is very disciplined and technique driven and you really have to begin with scales and learn the fingerboard. It sounds great in the hands of a Tom Hanway (I played with him in Dingle this year) and is distinct from tenor banjo playing. It incorporates some of the single string techniques also.
Played on a banjo in the style of Tom Hanway and Chris Grotewahl the music sounds Irish and not a bluegrass approximation. It is different from tenor banjo (after all they are completely different instruments) and has its own appeal.
Karolina banjo,surely the important thing is to master the instrument.
if youplay either melodic or single string style,you have to become acquainted with the complete fingerboard,these two styles are designed to play as a fiddler might play.
the important thing to understand hear is that there are different bluegrass styles,to say dont follow bluegrass books is an over simplification,and rubbish,to say dont play scruggs style makes sense, but that is not what either Mike Keyes or I suggested ,single string and melodic style is poles apart from Scruggs style and from frailing,it is about playing single notes.
and that is what IMO will best suit ITM on the 5 string banjo.
I would take Mikes advice,or alternatively get yourself a plectrumand just play the 5 STRING like a tenor.
you will of course get the sympathetic ringing on of the high g,
when youare in d, youcan retune your high g string.
and you can incorporate the high g periodically,,when youget a high g or e minor chord.
Hi folks, I only replied to Des - don't take it personal! I love ITM but to say only 4-string is the right for irish is not true, I had to face this for years and now I finally feel happy about the discovers I made, I had no help, no support, only criticism... but everytime I found any material about 5-string, it was tabs, and not really saying anything about the triplets as Gerry O'Connor does. Yes, you can use 5-string and play it with the plectrum, but as I said, I was playing bluegrass for 5 years and I simply can't use plectrum, I tried. Everyone is different, everyone likes something different, the most important is the heart, the sound of it - I really do enjoy the sound as soon as I started to play the ornaments, accents, triplets, and I am happy to share this as I don't really see people talking about this a lot, not in the bluegrass books! So, I am only advising, what else can I do? Good luck to you all, keep on playing and follow your heart.
What you said about not following bluegrass books is right, BG banjo is a specific style (mostly scruggs style) that can't capture the rhythmic pulse of ITM. But with melodic/single string style (which the Irish version of the five string seems to be) you can do triplets (using the Reno single string method) and play the tunes in a very Irish way.
My main interest is tenor banjo and mandolin, but I have played five string for almost 40 years now. Tenor banjo is a lot easier, believe me!
presumably we all agree on using g tuning to start with,what I think is an excellent idea is to make a chart of the fingerboard,you can then see where all your options notewise are.
then start picking out tunes by ear,but using thumb index,
for jigs most of the time you will want to get a down on your first and fourth beats,this can be done easily with the thumb,but could also be done with a downstroke of the finger,I think I prefer the thumb,but each to their own,with a few jigs ,sometimes it works starting the first beat on an up pick.
another alternative to consider is using[like travellers who play the tenor ] the thimble.
finally if you found out the right gauges you could string and tune your banjo like a tenor,gdae with high g,buy Sullys tenor banjo book,play thumb index or flatpick.
yes the 5 string is adifferent instrument,but then so is the hardanger fiddle ,different from the fiddle,it sometimes uses the same tuning sometimes different,the 5th string on a five string banjo,can have the same purpose as the sympathetic hardanger strings.
as with all instruments there are so many options,TheEnglish Concertina is diferent from the Anglo,it is neither wrong nor right to make it sound like an Anglo,it is aquestion of taste/ choice/style,personally I do not want to make the English sound like an Anglo,so I see where Karolina is coming from about not playing the 5 string like a tenor .
Karolina I enjoyed your music ,you are very good.
I've always thought playing TIM on a 5-string as pointless. The instument just doesn't lend itself to it. The tunings associated with the instrument make it particularly difficult whether you employ the 'chromatic' style or the 'Reno' style. I know lots of players do it, I used to back in the 70s but it seems all you end up with is a 'look what I can do' peprformance.
GJ
Thanks Dickens! That is a fair comment. You see my point. I know nothing about Reno or whoever styles, I play TIM on 5-string with the similar sound like Gerry O'Connor, and this is it. I enjoy it, people enjoy it, I have no problem on a session to join 2-3 pipes and still be heard! There are some advantages of 5-string, the only problem is, ppl don't know how to play TIM on 5-string and think it is a waste of time? Tenor is great, I love Seamus Egan, Gerry O'Connor... they are legends. I know it's a hard work, but look how popular it is! And, where does the banjo come from, btw? Africa - America and then - Ireland. Gerry sais in his book, first banjo in 19th century was played with FINGERS haaa haaaa no plectrum. It was also fretless! Everything develops and the banjo very much! At the moment, I can play approx. 60 tunes and join the session as a "normal" average TIM musician. So, if there's anyone who wants to achieve this, I am more than happy to say how did I achieve this, although, I still have much to learn. Fairwell!
Good point : key changes is another unneccessary hurdle.
If you really want to play ITM with yuor fingers, try doing it on the tenor. Check out Gordon Johnston, traditional Irish banjo on YouTube.
irish music books for 5 string
irish music books for 5 string
Can any one help .Ive got myself a 5 string banjo and i would like to play irish tunes or songs on it .Are there any music books out there or web sites I do not want the american blue grass stuff it must be irish .Many thanks Des
# Posted on June 28th 2008 by DES RYNNE
Re: irish music books for 5 string
sullys 5 string banjo, tony sullivan,it is the same fellow who has several tenor banjo books,lives in Macclesfield,England,halshaw music.google HALSHAW MUSIC.Dick Miles
# Posted on June 28th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
another alternative is to tune it in,g tuning gdgbd,and just start picking with a flat pick by ear,or alternatively use a thumb for down picks and index for up picks,using single sting picking.youwont use your top g string much apart from occasionally incorporating it in a g chord,
# Posted on June 28th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo - Book & CD by Tom Hanway
Irish 5string music by Chris Grotewohl
Try both of these, they are very good. In addition, if you go to http://www.banjoshangout.org and look at the "Other" section in the forum, there is a lot written about Irish music on a 5 string banjo.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: irish music books for 5 string
The Sully book teaches a folk accompaniment style similar to the classic Pete Seeger book. The others teach a melodic style of banjo more suited for tunes. You can try them all or take your choice.
The Seeger style is great for singing and is what is used for Irish Folk. Irish Traditional music works better with the melodic style although it is not bad with frailing. Ther eis another frailing style book out there that teaches ITM tunes, but I forget the name.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: irish music books for 5 string
I would advocate either what aneighbour of mine does which is to use a flat pick,or investigate Single string style or DonReno picking,the reason I would choose this rather than Melodic style is emphasis.the difference is thisthat in melodic style the notes are played as part of rolls,while in single string style the thumb and index finger,alternate, imitating the up and down motion of the flat pick.,this will be ideal for reels.
when reels are flatpicked on a tenor banjo,it is advocated by many tutors that an up down sequence of picking is used,this can be acheived by using Single string style or Don Reno picking.
in melodic stylethe same string is never played twice in a row, it would interfere with the roll.In single string style the thumb and index finge rmight alternate playing the same string for several consecutive notes.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
single string work imitates closely what a flat picking guitar player might do on a banjo[joe maphis is one guitar player who actually does flat pick single notes on a banjo].the way Reno and Adcock play the left hand technique is the same as guitar flat picking ,they both play freehand that is,with the left hand not based in chord positions.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Advanced Level "Red Haired Boy" Key of G Single String Style
Notes: Although this melody falls within the Key of G, you'll notice that the scalar pattern is a C scale...This gives the song a Modal sound...which is common in fiddle tunes. Fiddle tunes are a great way to gain facility on your 5-string banjo...and, learning how to play them in different keys will assist you in familiarizing yourself with the fingerboard. Notice the repeat signs (the symbols with the double bars and two dots)...this means you go back to the other two dots and repeat the passage. Upon repeating once, then you'll continue on through the piece. Most fiddle tunes have an AABB structure...and, you'll notice that the repeat dots separate these two parts.
This arrangement uses the Single String approach made popular by Don Reno...use an alternating pattern of your thumb and index finger...
T = Thumb
I = Index
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright ©2004 Mickey Cochran
Banjo Website Map • Return to Lessons Section • Return to Homepage.
if you go to this site,and look at the music,you will notice that crotchets are normally played with the thumb,and half beats [quavers]thumb index alternating.although this peice of music is american,the same picking formula can be applied to Irish reels.so four quavers are picked thumb index, thumb index,crotchets are played with the thumb.
try googling mickey cochrane 5 string banjo lessons,single string style,whiskey before breakfast,Sailors hornpipe,or red haired boy]three good examples to get you started.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
google this
5-STRING BANJO BLUEGRASS Folk of the Wood Online Acoustic Music ..."Red Haired Boy" Key of G Advanced Single String Style · "Loch Lavan Castle" Key of Am ... "Introduction to the 5-String Banjo" Tablature Transcriptions ...
www.folkofthewood.com/page5304.htm - 26k
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Hey Des please don't waste your time if you are not for the bluegrass, I used to play it for 5 years and to play irish tunes on 5-string is completely different, please check out my web www.myspace.com/karolinabanjoplayer and contact me, I'll give you all the help you need.
It can be very enjoyable and you can achieve very IRISH sound on it. Don't follow bluegrass books!!!
Hope to hear from you.
Karolina
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by karolinabanjoplayer
Re: irish music books for 5 string
The books that I mentioned above do teach a melodic style, but that means that the melody is played note for note with the fiddle and while Bill Keith and Bobby Thompson did add some specific traits to the music, it does very well with ITM too.
The problem is that in order to play ITM well on the five string, you have to have a high level of skill to start. Melodic banjo is very disciplined and technique driven and you really have to begin with scales and learn the fingerboard. It sounds great in the hands of a Tom Hanway (I played with him in Dingle this year) and is distinct from tenor banjo playing. It incorporates some of the single string techniques also.
Played on a banjo in the style of Tom Hanway and Chris Grotewahl the music sounds Irish and not a bluegrass approximation. It is different from tenor banjo (after all they are completely different instruments) and has its own appeal.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Karolina banjo,surely the important thing is to master the instrument.
if youplay either melodic or single string style,you have to become acquainted with the complete fingerboard,these two styles are designed to play as a fiddler might play.
the important thing to understand hear is that there are different bluegrass styles,to say dont follow bluegrass books is an over simplification,and rubbish,to say dont play scruggs style makes sense, but that is not what either Mike Keyes or I suggested ,single string and melodic style is poles apart from Scruggs style and from frailing,it is about playing single notes.
and that is what IMO will best suit ITM on the 5 string banjo.
I would take Mikes advice,or alternatively get yourself a plectrumand just play the 5 STRING like a tenor.
you will of course get the sympathetic ringing on of the high g,
when youare in d, youcan retune your high g string.
and you can incorporate the high g periodically,,when youget a high g or e minor chord.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Hi folks, I only replied to Des - don't take it personal! I love ITM but to say only 4-string is the right for irish is not true, I had to face this for years and now I finally feel happy about the discovers I made, I had no help, no support, only criticism... but everytime I found any material about 5-string, it was tabs, and not really saying anything about the triplets as Gerry O'Connor does. Yes, you can use 5-string and play it with the plectrum, but as I said, I was playing bluegrass for 5 years and I simply can't use plectrum, I tried. Everyone is different, everyone likes something different, the most important is the heart, the sound of it - I really do enjoy the sound as soon as I started to play the ornaments, accents, triplets, and I am happy to share this as I don't really see people talking about this a lot, not in the bluegrass books! So, I am only advising, what else can I do? Good luck to you all, keep on playing and follow your heart.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by karolinabanjoplayer
Re: irish music books for 5 string
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSTssRUTRk
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by karolinabanjoplayer
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Karolina,
What you said about not following bluegrass books is right, BG banjo is a specific style (mostly scruggs style) that can't capture the rhythmic pulse of ITM. But with melodic/single string style (which the Irish version of the five string seems to be) you can do triplets (using the Reno single string method) and play the tunes in a very Irish way.
My main interest is tenor banjo and mandolin, but I have played five string for almost 40 years now. Tenor banjo is a lot easier, believe me!
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: irish music books for 5 string
presumably we all agree on using g tuning to start with,what I think is an excellent idea is to make a chart of the fingerboard,you can then see where all your options notewise are.
then start picking out tunes by ear,but using thumb index,
for jigs most of the time you will want to get a down on your first and fourth beats,this can be done easily with the thumb,but could also be done with a downstroke of the finger,I think I prefer the thumb,but each to their own,with a few jigs ,sometimes it works starting the first beat on an up pick.
another alternative to consider is using[like travellers who play the tenor ] the thimble.
finally if you found out the right gauges you could string and tune your banjo like a tenor,gdae with high g,buy Sullys tenor banjo book,play thumb index or flatpick.
yes the 5 string is adifferent instrument,but then so is the hardanger fiddle ,different from the fiddle,it sometimes uses the same tuning sometimes different,the 5th string on a five string banjo,can have the same purpose as the sympathetic hardanger strings.
as with all instruments there are so many options,TheEnglish Concertina is diferent from the Anglo,it is neither wrong nor right to make it sound like an Anglo,it is aquestion of taste/ choice/style,personally I do not want to make the English sound like an Anglo,so I see where Karolina is coming from about not playing the 5 string like a tenor .
Karolina I enjoyed your music ,you are very good.
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: irish music books for 5 string
I've always thought playing TIM on a 5-string as pointless. The instument just doesn't lend itself to it. The tunings associated with the instrument make it particularly difficult whether you employ the 'chromatic' style or the 'Reno' style. I know lots of players do it, I used to back in the 70s but it seems all you end up with is a 'look what I can do' peprformance.
GJ
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by jambo123
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Thanks Dickens! That is a fair comment. You see my point. I know nothing about Reno or whoever styles, I play TIM on 5-string with the similar sound like Gerry O'Connor, and this is it. I enjoy it, people enjoy it, I have no problem on a session to join 2-3 pipes and still be heard! There are some advantages of 5-string, the only problem is, ppl don't know how to play TIM on 5-string and think it is a waste of time? Tenor is great, I love Seamus Egan, Gerry O'Connor... they are legends. I know it's a hard work, but look how popular it is! And, where does the banjo come from, btw? Africa - America and then - Ireland. Gerry sais in his book, first banjo in 19th century was played with FINGERS haaa haaaa no plectrum. It was also fretless! Everything develops and the banjo very much! At the moment, I can play approx. 60 tunes and join the session as a "normal" average TIM musician. So, if there's anyone who wants to achieve this, I am more than happy to say how did I achieve this, although, I still have much to learn. Fairwell!
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by karolinabanjoplayer
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Just curious - how do you handle the key-changes in say, "Tarbolton/Longford Collector/Sailor's Bonnet" ?
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by Kenny
Re: irish music books for 5 string
I'll tell you when I'll learn this set! ;))
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by karolinabanjoplayer
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Good point : key changes is another unneccessary hurdle.
If you really want to play ITM with yuor fingers, try doing it on the tenor. Check out Gordon Johnston, traditional Irish banjo on YouTube.
# Posted on July 2nd 2008 by jambo123
Re: irish music books for 5 string
Did you mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6rK30O3HjQ
Gordon Johnson is using 2 plastic fingerpicks btw. And he sounds great.
# Posted on July 2nd 2008 by karolinabanjoplayer