Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
All,
Is it just me or have a lot of these discussions [I just did an informal poll back a few pages] turned into mostly a bunch of guys offering their opinions and flaming one another? In other words, there's hardly a feminine voice/perspective to be heard....altho the one or two I spotted had eminently sensible things to say [in the web page discussion for instance initiated by KML].
What do the women on here feel? Has The Session become another demographic cliche? i.e., men's voices drowning out others and devolving into personal attacks and general male silliness and posturing "I play better than YOU!" etc [not all men on here mind you].
I'd be curious to hear women members perspectives. I get bored hearing from 'guys' all the time to be frank. Too one sided it seems to me. Fire away....
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Seosamh
Yes, I know at least one or two of those who have "gender neutral" names and perhaps for good reason. I guess what's interesting is certain aspects of The Session seem to be a reflection of many actual real life session...ie, most in my experience are run/dominated by men. Often men who have big egos or something to prove. Now that may go hand in hand with running/organizing a session in any case. It isn't easy. It's a lot of work and I can appreciate that and perhaps it takes a certain personality to take that on and be responsible for policing it later on.
I can think of only one session in my experience est'b by a woman. It's still running in Nova Scotia. There have been the odd one in Toronto estb by some high end women players. But are no longer in existence. Now, on the other hand there are some sessions here often anchored by high end women players.
But to get back to The Session....is it merely a demographic relfection of what's out there in the real world? ie, male dominated for the most part in ITM?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
No no no, but seriously, what about the esteemed and wise Iris Nevins, for example? Also, lots of folks are incognito, gender neutral user names, etc. If you click through on people's bios you can see sometimes they have a user name like "bowfrog" and their bio says "Hi, I'm Mary..."
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Also, the Tampa session is headed up by Francis from the band Juniper. She does a wonderful job and teaches a gaggle of fiddle students too. I joke that it looks like Mother Duck and her Fiddle Ducklings.
...but, she doesn't hop on the mustard board at all, so, there you go.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I gather ladies are not actual banned from posting here, so it's up to them. C'mon ITM sisters and wimmin everywhere!Stand up for your opinion to be heard.
But I expect they are all too busy bitching, shopping, nagging, being premenstral, cooking, talking bollox on the 'phone, crying, feeling ill, having headaches, doing their nails, driving badly, moaning about what a bad deal they get to get to the PC (or Mac).
But you are here now so you are represented at last! Hooray!!
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
This site is a virtual woodshed. Or den, garret, garage, workshop, hide, pigeon-cree, ferret-hutch, fishing-hut, snug, bothy, personal distillery, or any such place where hobbyists resort in preference (temporary or permanent) to domesticity; and hobbyists tend to be men. Women are sometimes welcome in these places, and constantly fantasised about in many of them, but they are not such natural hobbyists on the whole and tend to find this whole area of male behaviour rather peculiar, therefore giving it a wide berth. Perhaps it is the strongly obsessive nature of male hobbyists that they find most alien, or being ignored not for another woman but for a carp, or a motorbike, or a prize leek, or a tune.
Music is one of the very few such theatres of endeavour that is at once a classic male hobby and also popular to any extent with women, which is one of the very nice things about it. For men, that is.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Gidday mtodd,
You really need to get down of a Monday. The session is predominantly women players (80/20) several of whom are contributors on this list. It's very refreshing not to have to sit through the cliches of bloke speak that are the norm in many of the other sessions in this town. One could extrapolate the argument to say that there needs to be more Irish or Scottish nationals giving their opinions here as well. A Martian could take a quick look and see that an awful lot of non nationals have an awful lot to say about the traditional music of those two countries. Or is that an awful lot of male non nationals...
I suffer from the delusion that women are the minority voice because they know better.
Interesting though when I play session there are almost always female players. & in conversations, during session, women do represent their opinions.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Huh? ~ I'm always seeing women on site, they just don't tend to be 'in your face', so it may just be a case of not noticing they are there and making a valuable comment that does deserve attention... I think, and probably a note of wisdom, when the shight hits the fan they back away, choosing not to be drawn in, as do male members too...
I also had a chuckle at the first comment, but I knew he was pulling your leg, unless Nate really does know them all and has that much charisma and is that whale of a size to consume that many lunches... Of course, we haven't yet really dealt with who cooks here.
Nate, stop playing thad awful Irish diddly stuff and get your ass in here, your din-dins are ready!!!
One of my favorite sessions is headed by an esteemed woman fiddler in Vermont, USA. So there...
But I usually defer to those more versed in Irish music to share their knowledge on this board. Sometimes I tender my humble opinion on things I might have experience with. A la prochaine...
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
ceol you are correct ~
yet numerous threads have not one input from females.
One particular topic concerned post - session pugilism. I could be mistaken.
Just reread you thread ceolachan. In general wiser minds do not get drawn into the maelstrom. Think about it though, there have been some passionate moments from either gender.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think Mehitabel23 has one of the most clever bio's here.
I have also been in sessions hosted by or heavily populated by women. In fact one of my fav's was hosted by a Brooklyn born gal who could dish the smack and insults as well as any fella I've ever met. Rippin' fiddle player too.
As far as this place - gals usually have far more class than to hang around with opinionated lie-abouts like us...
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Asking a serious question of people who usually behave like public schoolboys was a mistake. Most contributors are not mature enough to answer.
I suspect Ceol had a point when he states that perhaps women back away from the controversial mud slinging arguments, with the notable exception of bb, who is now using a different name.
And a lot of the arguments are of the "mine is bigger than yours" variety, almost childlike.
Having said that, while defending women, and I usually do not make such a distinction, people are people and gender should not influence our opinions, when women get together they can be even worse.
But I suspect they just cannot be bothered with the arguments.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"~ there have been some passionate moments from either gender ~" ~ Random_notes
True, and passion can often cause us to stumble past any reason in the heat of the moment. It isn't just fools, old or young, male or female, who fall prey to our humours...
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
PatK.
g'day as well. Good point about the nationals and having more of their voice as opposed to those of us who, really, are looking on from the sidelines -- however, then we get into the sticky area of 'true' authenticity and who has more of a 'right' to comment on the tradtion[?] But maybe what you're saying is it'd be nice to hear more from those countries out of which this tradition originated.
I know, how about more WOMEN from those countries from which the tradition originates?
[ps. keep hearing great things about your session down there....I know I should come over ...it's just traffic hell from my end of town to yours...sadly]
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
The sessions I go to have a majority of women musos. Maybe that's why I go to them.
"when the shight hits the fan they back away"
Have you forgotten, ceolachan, the days when Zina and Kerry were vigilant participators? Either of them would have you in a corner begging for mercy before you knew what hit you.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"---mountain lion footprints in the Upper Park. The advice?
"Don't be taken for prey.""
I don't know where you're from, Random notes, but locally, mountain lions are usually called 'cougars'.
Of course, some of us LIKE being 'taken for prey'!
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
It's possibly worth following mountain lion footprints to collect their droppings.
Lion droppings are supposed to be the one thing that'll really scare cats off flowerbeds. And they're organic, into the bargain.
Pumas / cougars seem to be at large in Britain, slowly increasing from some supposedly let loose in the 70s by menagerie-owners who didn't want to pay up to meet new legal requirements regarding keeping them. Any number of reported sightings, but I don't think any has actually been killed or found dead as yet. At least one lynx, however, has been killed in the wild.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
hey, Mr Bliss, I WAS a public schoolboy, and I resent that earlier remark.
But, then, there are the bright scholarship day-boys like me, and then there were the boarders, sent away by their parents to be shot of them for a term at a time...
meanwhile, we are missing people like batlady and Zina - hey, Reverend, where's Zina hiding these days ?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
there're plenty of women around here (despite our own good judgment). some of you need to make a list of 10 ways you can improve yourselves so we'll like you better - how about starting with "I will not post ascii character breasts on this board". that'd be nice.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
You seem to be trying to make a point about gender equality through a prism of extreme gender bias. It's rather ironic that you are offended by stereotypes of women while promoting some very clear stereotypes of men. Do you only care about equality when you're on the wrong end of it?
There have been studies that have shown that women dominate in leadership positions in online games. The same studies also show that most women portray themselves as either male or gender-neutral online, to avoid harassment. That's games not discussion boards, but there are similarities in how people assume male domination while it's usually the other way around.
As far as music being a male hobby, that's hogwash. For centuries music was one of the few "ladylike" hobbies/occupations allowed to women. They were shut out of composing for the most part, but even in the worst times of gender inequality virtually all "ladies" played an instrument or sang; it was a plus in attracting a man, kind of like being a pretty songbird (a common description in those times). You can see it from Shakespeare to Dickens.
No one, as far as I know, is keeping women from posting or shouting them down here. I doubt you'll find many others who care about the gender of the posters here. If you really think that women are under-represented (which I doubt) then isn't it up to them to speak up more?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
bollox. here's a self-creep test you can try on yourselves. next time you're at your local session, check out what the women are wearing. are they all dressed in baggy sweatshirts? then one of you is surely a creep.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm with Airport. She understands wit.
& Screetch:
that's precisely the point. Perhaps they [the women here] DON"T speak up more because the men on this forum are always droning on in a self-important way....Kerry, Zina et al. lent at least a different view point/tone to the discussions sometimes. Gender -- per se -- isn't really the issue, but it's always healthy to have a mix of voices...For example, in my reading over the years I don't recall Zina or other female members [as much as one knew who was or wasn't] posturing and bull sh-tting in the way we've seen recently...from some of the males. That's all I'm saying.
Question is: is it because: 1. the women have nothing to say [unlikely] 2. prefer not to get involved [likely] 3. like to avoid the flame wars of the self infatuated [also likely] 4. have no time for much of the 'male chat' formerly alluded to by Patkiwi [highly likely]
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"Baggy sweatshirts???"
leoj, women who are tired of being harassed and ogled often dress down to avoid it, especially around men that they know will engage in such activities.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
My feeling is that women prefer to engage in more "intimate" discussion with friends--either in individually or in groups--in the actual presence of others. That personal connection is largely missing here, all the better for the guys who place less importance (much less) on the "personal " aspect.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Screetch
I concede your point and good distinction. Right, altho in my original post I did add phrases like:
..............
""I play better than YOU!" etc [not all men on here mind you]."
................
...to show I wasn't lumping everyone in same basket. Indeed, I CAN [and did] see how lumping would be offensive...and thought my comment above indicated that fact. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Many male posters are, in fact, quite decent etc etc etc....no dispute. Again, what I'm saying is perhaps we are hearing from less women because of the tenor of some of the recent discussions which, you must admit, have been primarily dominated by less people of the male gender.
While we're at it: A professor told me a while back [i was writing an article on him as a cross dressing prof] that "sex is between your legs, while gender is between your ears"....
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
And my feeling is that that is simply not true!!!
Myself, I don't bother wearing baggy jumpers, I just feel content in the knowledge that any men ogling at me are weirdos who should pick on someone their own age! Hee hee
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Well, Zina was one of the ones driven away by eejits. But she's probably *still* the most prolific poster on the boards (10652 posts), even though she hasn't posted much in about 3 years (with the exception of a handful of threads). And a good number of regular posters here are women, so I never really thought much about it...
(Oh, and GP, she's currently hiding in California, on her way to Asia for a few months and then back to Europe for a bit)
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm a woman and I post occasionally.
There may be some truth to some of the theories posed so far, but one of the reasons I don't post as often as other members is because I'm only 21 years old and am self-taught when it comes to ITM so I often don't feel like I have enough experience and/or knowledge of specific discussion topics to offer anything valuable to the discussion. *shrug*
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
That doesn't matter. Mehitabel23 is 16 (or at least she looks and acts like one, according to her bio she's actually 1684, going on 1685), and I'm 18. There's plenty of younguns on this site, it doesn't mean your opinion is worthless (or worth less). It does, however, mean you haven't grown old and cynical yet!
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Well there you go, Joe CSS. I'm a happily married man but who could blame a guy for ogling an 1,800 year old Ixian shape-shifting, she-princess who wear clothing with pictures of naked women at a session? That's not being disrespectful, it's admiring a work of art, right?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Tasia, the real problem being discussed in this thread (I think) is the fact that there's something of a culture here that discourages people who aren't "experts" from contributing. Like this is some mountaintop that aspiring musicians may climb to consult the masters, rather than a discussion among people who share a common interest.
And then there have been some people who seem to aspire to be experts, who then prove themselves to know less than they say and who then get torn apart by the real experts, fueling the flames of the those-who-aren't-experts-should-not-contribute attitude.
I think that this is the real problem, and I think that gender is coincidental for the most part and not the real issue.
But anyway, I say post away if you have something you want to say. This board is as much for you as it is for the experts who have been playing for decades.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
At our local session, approximately half of the participating musicians are women and that has been true for most of the time since this session was started in 1995.
As a matter of fact, the Original Culprit who did most of the work trying to start this session by finding a place to play in and putting flyers in local music stores and coordinating everything is a woman who is still participating regularly in the local session. She wanted to start a session here after participating in sessions in other states.
When she got tired of coordinating the local session after several years, another woman took over and she is still doing her best to keep the local session going.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
My name here is obviously not gender neutral.
Our Sunday session has up to 12 players and at least 4-6 are women. Not all of us are playing the same instrument either. We have at least two who join in who play whistle, two who play flute, two who play violin, a dulcimer, a psaltry, a clarinet, and a guitar. The Saturday session I attend has at least 2 violinists who are women. A lot of guitars at that session and I'm the only woman on guitar.
I join in here on ocassion, although my sense of humor doesn't seem to get much of a response. That's a problem for women in general.
Considering that women still have to do it all - work, house, children, etc., it's amazing that we have time for ourselves to even play music, let alone join in on the discussion.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Reverend, Last Sunday evening, a fiddler introducing herself as Zina visited the session at O'Flaherty's in San Jose, California. She said something about being on her way to Asia. Would this have been the same Zina of all the posts? Finally, a face to go with the name. Good fiddler too. Now, could we get back to the subject of mountain lions?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
JOE - that dress is a stylised work of modern art. You can't see what the pattern actually is unless I point it out!!! It's a gorgeous dress!!! I'm going to wear it to the next session I go to. And as for over-estimating my age? This is the end. I will never contact you again.
JNE - you could be forgiven as long as it's the dress and hairdo that you're ogling.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think in ITM the female gender have a very strong voice..
Start to make a list of all the good Female players in it,,
And you'll see what I mean,,,
jim,,,,,
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Haha mehitabel, beware of any man ogling your "dress." Next he'll be asking to feel the fabric. Keep a brick in your purse. Or, considering your age, perhaps a gun would be more appropriate.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"But I expect they are all too busy bitching, shopping, nagging, being premenstral, cooking, talking bollox on the 'phone, crying, feeling ill, having headaches, doing their nails, driving badly, moaning about what a bad deal they get to get to the PC (or Mac)."
Actually, no, for most of the year or so I've been absent I've been too busy working on dismounted close combat equipment systems for infantry soldiers and stocking up my superannuation.
That plus the fact that all I could contribute is the occasionaly bit of craic anyway. And I am not deterred from posting by a preference for "more intimate conversations" either, I gernerally avoid such conversations all round. If I don't post here it's because I'm too busy with other things, the topic/fight du jour is not relevant to me, or I have nothing useful to contribute so I'll save the electrons.
I don't advertise my gender on any board I post on (though I don't go to extraordinary lengths to conceal it either) because I am sick to bloody death of people thinking they have a clue what I think/prefer and why, and what motivates me, on the basis of gender.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Atahualpa, that would be one and the same... Did she have a large, short haired chap in tow? That would be the estimable Mr. Gillard (formerly known as Orson Carte in these parts). Good fiddlers, both. Zina is my ex-wife, and still a great friend. I was blessed growing up (musically) under her tutelage (or nagging, depending on how you look at it)
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Nicholas' point of how this discussion site is the cyber equivalent of a men's lodge has a lot of truth in it. It must seem to the women to be a pathetic, and patheticly male refuge at times. I move that we spruce the place up, bathe, and host a Ladys' Night. It's either that or elect someone to go out and bring back a Wendy.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Let the boys have some space where they to try to be important. Smile behind their backs. Meanwhile get on with the job.
Don't worry about us, mtodd. We say exactly as much as we want to.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Hmmm...I'm a stay-at-home dad, in touch with my care-giver, homemaker side. So do we have a third tally board for representation somewhere between the stereotypical male and female roles?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Someone's making a Wendy's run? I'm in. I'll take a cheeseburger, some fries, and a milkshake.
If we're talking actual folks at sessions, not just posters on the board, ours are split right down the middle. Sometimes the fellas are outnumbered, no one's complaining, and yes, I like my cave very much, thank you, as do all the cave babes. Ooga ma booga.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"I don't know where you're from, Random notes, but locally, mountain lions are usually called 'cougars'.
Of course, some of us LIKE being 'taken for prey' "
I thought that at least the North Americans would have taken my meaning.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Not to bring up a cliche, but are you asking the question as if there's something different or distinctive about female posting as opposed to male posting? We use different words, say, than men? Express ourselves in some kind of secret woman-speak language? Hmmmpf. If I didn't sign myself mandogal (mando-gal) and refer to my husband, would you have known i was female?
Our group is mostly guys, although on a good night there are more than half a dozen women players: two boxes, a concertina, three flutes (wooden and silver), whistle-and-bodhran and me on mandolin. I've even led a session once upon a time, although that was a fluke. Some of our best players are women, some are men, and some of the women are as opinionated as the men and some are as quiet as the men. I find the flaming on this board entertaining, but have no wish to join the fray -- but i'm like that in real life anyway.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm a woman, but I'm going to let my man friend sum it up rather than me. He asked me the other day: "Have you read those posts on The Session lately? Do you think those guys ever have any FUN playing music or are they too wrapped up in being 'right' and 'pure' to have any fun and just enjoy the music?"
Anyway, that was the question asked of me. I just nodded and smiled...I rarely have time to read all but a few posts, but this one caught my eye.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
To answer your friend, swillybay, we do, indeed, have fun playing. And one of the reasons that some of us are wrapped up in being 'right' and 'pure' is because when it's not 'right' and 'pure', it isn't as much fun (for us, at least).
Oh, and a good old fashioned knock down, drag out argument on we forums can be fun too
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Aw come on, I'm a nice guy, who do I ever get into a fight with? I'm here to learn stuff, have good craic and rub synapses with other like-minded brains. People make it sound like it's a gladiator arena in here. Sheesh.
No but seriously, there used to be something called debate in which parties presented their opinions and then through discussion, perhaps one opinion was proved to hold more weight than the other, or not, and things were learned in the process.
People see debating and think it's always vicious confrontation, me thinks.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
...and yes, puberty = dirty young manhood, it just progresses from there, well said Screetch. That's being a man for ya, someone's got to do it. No self-loathing on this cat, daddy-o. [snaps fingers]
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
You can make the argument that gender informs most social interactions and explain a great deal of behaviour using gender stereotypes. Above, posters have characterized the rows on thesession.org as male posters behaving aggressively, fighting over who is bigger, basically being testosterone poisoned men. Okay fine, but if it happened to have been a group of female posters duking it out, couldn't you have suggested that it was yet another instance of female bitchy catfighting?
It kind of fits with our heuristics for how men and women in our culture supposedly behave but is there actual evidence that there are more men on the board than women and that women on the board are significantly more likely to avoid confrontation? I doubt you could ever show that. Heuristics by definition are not empirically based but rather psychological shortcuts we take, often unconciously, in order to explain or predict behavior
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think you're completely wrong Silver Spear, only because you're a woman and women shouldn't be spouting their irrelevant opinions on this board - Women, Know Your Limits!!!
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
For me the issue isn't the aggro levels (doesn't scare me but it's generally just such an inefficient way of communicating and I've got better things to do) as the signal-to-noise ratio.
When I signed up about 21,000 members ago there was off topic chatter and joking aplenty but I was learning all the time from what I was reading. The useful information content of posting has gone down a lot, partly because I know more than I did but partly because so much of what is posted now seems of "little educational value", shall we say. So I just look in every now and then on the off chance.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Ah jaysus lads, some of you take this site way too seriously. Most of the disagreements on this site are just harmful banter, sure it gets heated at times but to be honest I'd surprised if anyone gets too offended by the likes of llig leahcim, Key Maniac Lad or even me......
I think it's refreshing that you can have a heated debate with people you might never even meet.
If you want to test how many reasonable, level-headed females use this site why not post an outlandish sexist topic for discussion, such as 'Should women be allowed play this music?". Make sure to debate shamelessly that they shouldn't then we'll see how civil the women remain.
This is pretty much the kind of thing that gets said about guitarists. Guitarists are the most persecuted, downtrodden people of the trad world, much like women have been in the regular world!
All this trad stuff is bollox anyway, Congolese Rumba is much better.......
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Tish,
My feelings exactly! I think posts by people like Will Harmon are fantastic and very helpful, but the arguing over who is right and who is wrong is just plain destructive and a real turnoff for newbies like me. I train/ride/show dressage horses for part of my living, and there's enough of that in dressage to make me not want to deal with it in my hobby of playing fiddle.
Reverend, I do understand completely about when it's right and pure, it's more fun for the expert players (same with horses -- nobody likes riding with a dude, yet it has to be done). I'm definitely not even halfway to what I'm assuming is your level yet, but I don't see how I could ever get there if there weren't some sort of tolerance so that I could quietly sit in in a session here and there.
When I went to Willie Clancy week last year, my favorite evening was when a really good harp player let me sit in at a slow session, and she was so encouraging even though it was obvious I was not very knowledgeable or correct. She gave me much more inspiration to learn to do it right than the players who were not exactly encouraging (although I never dared asking to sit down with them, of course). Just my little 2 cents' worth, I guess!
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Interesting Tish - I guess I'm still learning things here - like whose session might be fun to drop in on, and what kind of clothes to pack. but in all seriousness I have to say that while for the most part you all seem like good folks, I run into more sexism on this board than anywhere else, and I think it's partly because we're not looking at one another and one or two of you tend to forget there are women about, and partly because the mustard board (at least the discussion part of it) is more like any other internet forum than a real session, which explains why women are outnumbered here. anyway, thanks Screech for articulating the baggy jumper phenomenon, and SWFL for the nice tumbleweed imagery, and mtodd for igniting the house, ceol and FTT for being voices of reason (I like Madness too), and Mehitabel for the grand sewing ideas. Hah - just kidding - you'll get no sewing or cooking out of me...
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Men and women are just different creatures, they think differently and so another reason why there may be more male testosterone type arguments here than female cat-fights is that the main topics of debate may not be ones that interest or worry women too much.
As an analogy to this look at this quote from the Wimbledon Tennis after-match comments by the woman who surprisingly knocked Maria Sharapova out today.
"It's very pleasant to beat Maria," she added. "Why? I don't like her outfit. She experiments, and I give her credit for that. She's brave enough to experiment.
"But it's a little too much of everything. It was one of the motivations to beat her."
Can you imagine Roger Federer saying he wanted to beat Nadal cos he didn't like his shirt???
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Floccinaucinihilipilification, (wow, did you choose that name to discourage replies?) I have known several men who would want to beat other men over fashion. Don't confuse being male with being masculine.
My best friend in college was a big burly guy who was as gay as a three dollar bill and quite the dresser. But in some ways he was very masculine, and I looked more feminine on the surface (small, sensitive English major) although I was the straight one. It's not that simple.
And it's also very true that gay guys can be extremely masculine through and through while a straight guy might be feminine in personality from head to toe.
As someone said above, sex is between the legs but gender is between the ears. And that's an oversimplification.
I guess my point is, there are real distinctions between masculinity and femininity, but they are below the surface and don't always correspond to biological sex or outward appearance. So it's not really a male/female thing; at least not always.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Yeah, I've got this friend who's a big fat butch lesbian with piercings and tattoos, and you'd expect her to be like a man, but she likes knitting and kittens, so she must be a woman.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Swillybay brought up dressage which is a great example of a sport where women get into heated discussions all the time over who is right and has the best methods for training/showing horses and more importantly, whose methods are rubbish. Pop over to any equestrian message board or website and I bet there will be some pretty intense arguments (if you want a good one, Google the word "rolkur").
My point is that rowing over who's right and wrong isn't something you can easily define using gender. In my experience, sessions tend to be fairly balanced. And as someone stated above, there is a huge spectrum of gendered behaviour and plenty of men who act more feminine and women who act more masculine.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
This "men who act more feminine and women who act more masculine" is such a problem at the local that we have taken to wearing labels on our clothing to avoid confusion.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I have a buddy who was in the Navy. He had shore leave once in Thailand, he had that same problem, the "men who act more feminine and women who act more masculine". We still tease him about it to this day. I know he wishes he never told us that story.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Don't know about session playing, but the music retail industry is very heavily male dominated with a lot of "rutting" behaviours. My wife just laughs at one trade magazine, MIPro, which we get sent every month and which we now refer to as "Blokes and Guitars Monthly". All the articles refer to business takeovers etc, using language such as "rout", "battle", "fight" etc etc. We just take the p*ss out of it.
But when I mentioned this discussion to her, she just said she personally doesn't like online forums, so maybe it's that that's a gender thing, rather than the topic?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"That's the easy way out, what it really is is that ye don't have the intellect to comprehend what we're arguing about"
Right then.
The question was raised whether this discussion section has turned into a gender cliche. Nate suggests we women are busy cooking. Someone else suggested the gents are marking their territory. One of you is offering to wear a slinky shiny frock, women who wear baggy sweatshirts are making statements, someone is following big cat droppings, a fiddler from southwest florida is on a beach picking up sea shells, Joe CSS will be a dirty old man some day, somebody offered to make a Wendy’s run. We’ve heard from a female shape shifter and bb’s turned into something of the night.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Geez, Mark. You look so lovely in that frock too.
Yes, male/female perspectives are interestingly different. An author of popular fiction, wrote a doctoral thesis on this kind of difference. Her findings were that the male generally goes directly from point a to b to c and so on. Females on the other hand, get to c but on a much more convoluted route. I agree with her. But this discussion is pretty convoluted for being mostly from the male point of view. I'm having a good time reading it.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
The most entertaining analogy I've ever heard was one woman's view that relating with other women is a bit like living a Henry James novel, but with men was more like a spider man comic.
Hmm, sort of rings true around here, doesn't it?
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Have you come across the work on agency / communion - where "agency" = male = tendency to want to set oneself apart and "communion" = female = working together, making connections. They don't exactly equate to men and women, as there are degrees of agency / communion in everyone, but that's a generic set of traits. The person who introduced me to this thinking, Kathleen King, had a lot to say about it - for example, that maturity was about being able to operate in both areas, as the situation demanded, and that organisations don't really have a language for "feminine" competencies of "working together, suppressing yourself for the greater good", etc, but only of masculine ones about winning, being separate, distinctive, etc. And of course, if they don't have a way of talking about feminine values, they don't really have a way of celebrating or promoting them either.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
All my life I have loved to do "guy things" yet, am told I am rather on the feminine side in looks and demeanor. The music is mostly guys at least in these parts, East Coast, NY NJ area, but still there are many great female musicians. There's a good gang of 'the girls' i like to play with though. We don't do much of the girly stuff, we are too obsessed with the music. I grew up with knitting needles in my hands and am an expert Fair Isle and other style knitter, but from what I read, it was long ago first a men's craft. I rarely touch the needles anymore, would rather "hit the strings". My house... well sometimes I think I need a wife, or at least a mother! No domestic Goddess here at all.
I have spent my life among bookbinders for my "day job", which is male dominated (I make marbled paper, historic matches for book restoration), I build guitars, but the guys in luthier class always did a double take when I walked in. They tried to leave the toilet seat down and tried to not be too crude... that would last all of the first day.... I like stacking wood, loved using a chainsaw until it gave me carpal tunnel problems. Even jewelry making, a sideline job, in the commecial jewelry world, mainly guys. Unfortunately that stuff that looks like it came from the mall sells better than my way more interesting Celtic and Medieval jewelry. In five years of training for that, a true classical training, that was all female, but the commercial techniques, going to jewerly repair school, all men pretty much.
The guy stuff was just always more fun. And I have maybe too much to say on this board, esp. when it comes to guitar bashing. Trying to control myself a bit more. When you work at home alone, these web breaks and discussions sometimes are irresistable! It gets lonely down in the basement, and except for the music, events and sessions, I really am a bit of a hermit. But thankful I am working at all these days, it's feast or famine, and being in the "luxury item" business things were scary slow this year.... until now, when the "forces" know I am gearing up to go to CIAW! Too much work for a change, terrible timing, but also a relief! So I may chat a little less here for the time being!
When first my brave Johnnie lad
Come to this town,
He had a blue bonnet
That wanted the crown;
But now he has gotten
A hat and a feather,--
Hey, brave Johnnie lad,
Cock up your beaver!
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
There are plenty of female musicians here in the Pioneer Valley (Western Mass). None of them are shy, they are all consumate musicians, very willing to share their talent with others. As for the comment made about children, housework and such, maybe that still exists, but most of the men I know have reached an equal sharing of responsibilities with their significant others. Maybe that has to do with being a musician and collaborating with others, I don't know.
If music is your priority, you find time to play. If checking out the mustard board is something you like to do, you participate in discussions you want to comment on. Perhaps the perceived lack of female responses on the board has more to do with wanting to avoid the inevitable crass comments some people make here; I have certainly seen women hold their own just fine here.
The thing that amazes me most about Irish/Celtic music is how it appeals across generations and gender. Both players and listeners all seems driven by the music, seems very egalitarian to me. I live watching little kids dance while I play.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Chained to radiators!! Hmmmm...
Well, my basement is very nice, I just need a disaster cleanup crew! Three studios in a walk out basement, so I have good sunlight. One room for paper marbling, another to build guitars in, though I don't have all the tools and toys I need....yet...but can go bend sides and such elsewhere...and a jewelry studio. it all adds up to a very modest living, but I get by somehow and have a great life really....though lately it involves in keeping the furnace way low in winter and hauling wood... and telling myself we are supposed to be cold in winter and it's healthy. But I have come to really believe that anyway and like carrying wood so there you go.
I played out today, four of the local girls and only two guys... so we did outnumber them this time. Honestly I don't care what gender as long as the music is good. They could be green and from Mars for all I care if they understand the music.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Michael
I get back from a week at the cottage and find this huge discussion. Wow. To answer your question, I don't often respond to discussions here because I've usually felt that no one really gives a darn. But that's not to say that we women of Toronto don't have lots to say on these topics. It might just be more fun to talk about musical things in person. Toronto has some great female musicians (I don't mean me) and we enjoy each others company.
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I would have replied earlier but I've been too busy cooking and cleaning and tidying up after other people.
I think there are plenty of women on this board and most give as good as they get in the discussions. We don't tend to get caught up in the arguments, but is that because the men on the board are less likely to be rude to or argue with women - yes, I know it's pointless anyway
I only got caught up in one heated debate and that was with a male member (now infamous) who thought I was a man and referred to me as "Bowburner Sir" which I found quite amusing. The outcome was peaceful enough.
So yes we are here. Just wake up and smell the perfume
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"To all the girls I've played tunes with before,
Who've wandered in and out my door,
I'm glad they came along,
I dedicate this song,
To all the girls I've played tunes with before..."
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm new to the board but from what i've seen so far it's evidently a pretty testosterone-laden forum at times. Perhaps the women are just getting on with the music and the craic. Or maybe we just cherry-pick what we need and leave the cut and parry to the regulars.
Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
All,
Is it just me or have a lot of these discussions [I just did an informal poll back a few pages] turned into mostly a bunch of guys offering their opinions and flaming one another? In other words, there's hardly a feminine voice/perspective to be heard....altho the one or two I spotted had eminently sensible things to say [in the web page discussion for instance initiated by KML].
What do the women on here feel? Has The Session become another demographic cliche? i.e., men's voices drowning out others and devolving into personal attacks and general male silliness and posturing "I play better than YOU!" etc [not all men on here mind you].
I'd be curious to hear women members perspectives. I get bored hearing from 'guys' all the time to be frank. Too one sided it seems to me. Fire away....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think they're all busy cooking my lunch
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Dude. Dumb. Very dumb.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I must be dumb too. I laughed at that. Sorry, I couldn't help it...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Dow
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
please. That's so ham fisted you couldn't possible take that seriously
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Perhaps many of them choose to use gender-neutral handles and avoid giving clues as to their gender in their postings?
There's a few overly-friendly participants on the mustard board if you follow my meaning.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Seosamh
Yes, I know at least one or two of those who have "gender neutral" names and perhaps for good reason. I guess what's interesting is certain aspects of The Session seem to be a reflection of many actual real life session...ie, most in my experience are run/dominated by men. Often men who have big egos or something to prove. Now that may go hand in hand with running/organizing a session in any case. It isn't easy. It's a lot of work and I can appreciate that and perhaps it takes a certain personality to take that on and be responsible for policing it later on.
I can think of only one session in my experience est'b by a woman. It's still running in Nova Scotia. There have been the odd one in Toronto estb by some high end women players. But are no longer in existence. Now, on the other hand there are some sessions here often anchored by high end women players.
But to get back to The Session....is it merely a demographic relfection of what's out there in the real world? ie, male dominated for the most part in ITM?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Hey now, really Seasamh? Please forward all super friendlies to SWFLFiddler...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Is it just me or is anyone else thinking of the stoning sketch in Monty Python's Life of Brian.....are there any women here?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by waraf
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
If I wear my sparkly off-the-shoulder evening dress, does that count?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
No no no, but seriously, what about the esteemed and wise Iris Nevins, for example? Also, lots of folks are incognito, gender neutral user names, etc. If you click through on people's bios you can see sometimes they have a user name like "bowfrog" and their bio says "Hi, I'm Mary..."
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Ha! That's what that smell is... It's from the territory-marking activity.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by pennhorse
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Also, the Tampa session is headed up by Francis from the band Juniper. She does a wonderful job and teaches a gaggle of fiddle students too. I joke that it looks like Mother Duck and her Fiddle Ducklings.
...but, she doesn't hop on the mustard board at all, so, there you go.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
...and airport and mehitabel and...er...uh... (not helping the argument here, am I?)
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Anyone? Hello, Ladies? [tumbleweed blows by, coyote howls...]
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"Ha! That's what that smell is... It's from the territory-marking activity."
listen, I just had to mark the end of my territory.
that my territory happened to end in the middle of your rose bushes is not my fault
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Actually there is an old thought that such marking is good for the roses (up to a point!)
D
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by curamach
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I gather ladies are not actual banned from posting here, so it's up to them. C'mon ITM sisters and wimmin everywhere!Stand up for your opinion to be heard.
But I expect they are all too busy bitching, shopping, nagging, being premenstral, cooking, talking bollox on the 'phone, crying, feeling ill, having headaches, doing their nails, driving badly, moaning about what a bad deal they get to get to the PC (or Mac).
But you are here now so you are represented at last! Hooray!!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"But I expect they are all too busy bitching, shopping, nagging, being premenstral, cooking, talking bollox on the 'phone..."
dammit, somebody pass me that bottle of Windex, there went my tea
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
This site is a virtual woodshed. Or den, garret, garage, workshop, hide, pigeon-cree, ferret-hutch, fishing-hut, snug, bothy, personal distillery, or any such place where hobbyists resort in preference (temporary or permanent) to domesticity; and hobbyists tend to be men. Women are sometimes welcome in these places, and constantly fantasised about in many of them, but they are not such natural hobbyists on the whole and tend to find this whole area of male behaviour rather peculiar, therefore giving it a wide berth. Perhaps it is the strongly obsessive nature of male hobbyists that they find most alien, or being ignored not for another woman but for a carp, or a motorbike, or a prize leek, or a tune.
Music is one of the very few such theatres of endeavour that is at once a classic male hobby and also popular to any extent with women, which is one of the very nice things about it. For men, that is.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Gidday mtodd,
You really need to get down of a Monday. The session is predominantly women players (80/20) several of whom are contributors on this list. It's very refreshing not to have to sit through the cliches of bloke speak that are the norm in many of the other sessions in this town. One could extrapolate the argument to say that there needs to be more Irish or Scottish nationals giving their opinions here as well. A Martian could take a quick look and see that an awful lot of non nationals have an awful lot to say about the traditional music of those two countries. Or is that an awful lot of male non nationals...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Patkiwi
Wanted: Female rep
I suffer from the delusion that women are the minority voice because they know better.
Interesting though when I play session there are almost always female players. & in conversations, during session, women do represent their opinions.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Huh? ~ I'm always seeing women on site, they just don't tend to be 'in your face', so it may just be a case of not noticing they are there and making a valuable comment that does deserve attention... I think, and probably a note of wisdom, when the shight hits the fan they back away, choosing not to be drawn in, as do male members too...
I also had a chuckle at the first comment, but I knew he was pulling your leg, unless Nate really does know them all and has that much charisma and is that whale of a size to consume that many lunches... Of course, we haven't yet really dealt with who cooks here.
Nate, stop playing thad awful Irish diddly stuff and get your ass in here, your din-dins are ready!!!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by ceolachan
I Am Woman...hear me squeek.
One of my favorite sessions is headed by an esteemed woman fiddler in Vermont, USA. So there...
But I usually defer to those more versed in Irish music to share their knowledge on this board. Sometimes I tender my humble opinion on things I might have experience with. A la prochaine...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by vonnieestes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Some of my best friends are women.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
ceol you are correct ~
yet numerous threads have not one input from females.
One particular topic concerned post - session pugilism. I could be mistaken.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Random_notes
~
Just reread you thread ceolachan. In general wiser minds do not get drawn into the maelstrom. Think about it though, there have been some passionate moments from either gender.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think Mehitabel23 has one of the most clever bio's here.
I have also been in sessions hosted by or heavily populated by women. In fact one of my fav's was hosted by a Brooklyn born gal who could dish the smack and insults as well as any fella I've ever met. Rippin' fiddle player too.
As far as this place - gals usually have far more class than to hang around with opinionated lie-abouts like us...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Asking a serious question of people who usually behave like public schoolboys was a mistake. Most contributors are not mature enough to answer.
I suspect Ceol had a point when he states that perhaps women back away from the controversial mud slinging arguments, with the notable exception of bb, who is now using a different name.
And a lot of the arguments are of the "mine is bigger than yours" variety, almost childlike.
Having said that, while defending women, and I usually do not make such a distinction, people are people and gender should not influence our opinions, when women get together they can be even worse.
But I suspect they just cannot be bothered with the arguments.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Jayzuz,
There's some sexist sh*t on this thread - 'Woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks'!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
bb's not even a woman, she's something else. Something of the night.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Dow
Wanted: representation /in discussions....
There is some fine representation of different opiions if you only look;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15825/comments#comment328615
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Random_notes
. . .
opinions
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"~ there have been some passionate moments from either gender ~" ~ Random_notes
True, and passion can often cause us to stumble past any reason in the heat of the moment. It isn't just fools, old or young, male or female, who fall prey to our humours...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
PatK.
g'day as well. Good point about the nationals and having more of their voice as opposed to those of us who, really, are looking on from the sidelines -- however, then we get into the sticky area of 'true' authenticity and who has more of a 'right' to comment on the tradtion[?] But maybe what you're saying is it'd be nice to hear more from those countries out of which this tradition originated.
I know, how about more WOMEN from those countries from which the tradition originates?
[ps. keep hearing great things about your session down there....I know I should come over ...it's just traffic hell from my end of town to yours...sadly]
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mtodd
. . . our humours
on the radio there was a notice of mountain lion footprints in the Upper Park. The advice?
"Don't be taken for prey."
;)
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
The sessions I go to have a majority of women musos. Maybe that's why I go to them.
"when the shight hits the fan they back away"
Have you forgotten, ceolachan, the days when Zina and Kerry were vigilant participators? Either of them would have you in a corner begging for mercy before you knew what hit you.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I know some fellas go in for that kinda stuff, but I'm a bit more old-fashioned, you know, perhaps a nice dinner and some tunes?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"---mountain lion footprints in the Upper Park. The advice?
"Don't be taken for prey.""
I don't know where you're from, Random notes, but locally, mountain lions are usually called 'cougars'.
Of course, some of us LIKE being 'taken for prey'!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
It's possibly worth following mountain lion footprints to collect their droppings.
Lion droppings are supposed to be the one thing that'll really scare cats off flowerbeds. And they're organic, into the bargain.
Pumas / cougars seem to be at large in Britain, slowly increasing from some supposedly let loose in the 70s by menagerie-owners who didn't want to pay up to meet new legal requirements regarding keeping them. Any number of reported sightings, but I don't think any has actually been killed or found dead as yet. At least one lynx, however, has been killed in the wild.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
hey, Mr Bliss, I WAS a public schoolboy, and I resent that earlier remark.
But, then, there are the bright scholarship day-boys like me, and then there were the boarders, sent away by their parents to be shot of them for a term at a time...
meanwhile, we are missing people like batlady and Zina - hey, Reverend, where's Zina hiding these days ?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
there're plenty of women around here (despite our own good judgment). some of you need to make a list of 10 ways you can improve yourselves so we'll like you better - how about starting with "I will not post ascii character breasts on this board". that'd be nice.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by airport
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
You seem to be trying to make a point about gender equality through a prism of extreme gender bias. It's rather ironic that you are offended by stereotypes of women while promoting some very clear stereotypes of men. Do you only care about equality when you're on the wrong end of it?
There have been studies that have shown that women dominate in leadership positions in online games. The same studies also show that most women portray themselves as either male or gender-neutral online, to avoid harassment. That's games not discussion boards, but there are similarities in how people assume male domination while it's usually the other way around.
As far as music being a male hobby, that's hogwash. For centuries music was one of the few "ladylike" hobbies/occupations allowed to women. They were shut out of composing for the most part, but even in the worst times of gender inequality virtually all "ladies" played an instrument or sang; it was a plus in attracting a man, kind of like being a pretty songbird (a common description in those times). You can see it from Shakespeare to Dickens.
No one, as far as I know, is keeping women from posting or shouting them down here. I doubt you'll find many others who care about the gender of the posters here. If you really think that women are under-represented (which I doubt) then isn't it up to them to speak up more?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
bollox. here's a self-creep test you can try on yourselves. next time you're at your local session, check out what the women are wearing. are they all dressed in baggy sweatshirts? then one of you is surely a creep.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by airport
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
The big cats: Where I live, they’re called “panters” (panthers).
“It's possibly worth following mountain lion footprints to collect their droppings.”
Don’t believe I’ll try that, having heard more than one report of the tracker suddenly realizing that he’s the one being followed.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Hello, I'm mehitabel, nice to meet y'all. I represent women of the world.
And A+++ to airport for that last comment
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm with Airport. She understands wit.
& Screetch:
that's precisely the point. Perhaps they [the women here] DON"T speak up more because the men on this forum are always droning on in a self-important way....Kerry, Zina et al. lent at least a different view point/tone to the discussions sometimes. Gender -- per se -- isn't really the issue, but it's always healthy to have a mix of voices...For example, in my reading over the years I don't recall Zina or other female members [as much as one knew who was or wasn't] posturing and bull sh-tting in the way we've seen recently...from some of the males. That's all I'm saying.
Question is: is it because: 1. the women have nothing to say [unlikely] 2. prefer not to get involved [likely] 3. like to avoid the flame wars of the self infatuated [also likely] 4. have no time for much of the 'male chat' formerly alluded to by Patkiwi [highly likely]
that's all i'm saying.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Baggy sweatshirts???
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
mtodd, can you possibly see how lumping all of the men here together as the disruptive, self-important posters on the board might be a tad offensive?
You say that gender isn't the real issue, but then why are you continuing to talk about men vs. women instead of jerks vs. nice people?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"Baggy sweatshirts???"
leoj, women who are tired of being harassed and ogled often dress down to avoid it, especially around men that they know will engage in such activities.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm not sure what I've got to contribute to this discussion apart from announcing that I'm a woman who posts here occasionally.
Mind you
''men's voices drowning out others and devolving into personal attacks and general male silliness and posturing "I play better than YOU!"
I usually try and stay clear of those sort of discussions anyway.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
My feeling is that women prefer to engage in more "intimate" discussion with friends--either in individually or in groups--in the actual presence of others. That personal connection is largely missing here, all the better for the guys who place less importance (much less) on the "personal " aspect.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Screetch
I concede your point and good distinction. Right, altho in my original post I did add phrases like:
..............
""I play better than YOU!" etc [not all men on here mind you]."
................
...to show I wasn't lumping everyone in same basket. Indeed, I CAN [and did] see how lumping would be offensive...and thought my comment above indicated that fact. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Many male posters are, in fact, quite decent etc etc etc....no dispute. Again, what I'm saying is perhaps we are hearing from less women because of the tenor of some of the recent discussions which, you must admit, have been primarily dominated by less people of the male gender.
While we're at it: A professor told me a while back [i was writing an article on him as a cross dressing prof] that "sex is between your legs, while gender is between your ears"....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
And my feeling is that that is simply not true!!!
Myself, I don't bother wearing baggy jumpers, I just feel content in the knowledge that any men ogling at me are weirdos who should pick on someone their own age! Hee hee
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Cross post - first sentence was replying to leoj
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
There is an exception to every rule, Guernsey Pete.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
That's a good thing mehitabel23 --otherwise this board would be populated exclusively with self-important men (is that redundant)?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
God, I love chicks who wear baggy sweatshirts!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Well, Zina was one of the ones driven away by eejits. But she's probably *still* the most prolific poster on the boards (10652 posts), even though she hasn't posted much in about 3 years (with the exception of a handful of threads). And a good number of regular posters here are women, so I never really thought much about it...
(Oh, and GP, she's currently hiding in California, on her way to Asia for a few months and then back to Europe for a bit)
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
'God, I love chicks who wear baggy sweatshirts!'
Oh, dear - see what I mean! Hope you're still happy in your cave, jwvansteenwyk.
God, I just love guys who wear baggy trousers, but then I was always into Madness.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Mehitabel23 wears dresses decorated with pictures of naked women.
And yes, her bio is a work of genius, isn't it?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm a woman and I post occasionally.
There may be some truth to some of the theories posed so far, but one of the reasons I don't post as often as other members is because I'm only 21 years old and am self-taught when it comes to ITM so I often don't feel like I have enough experience and/or knowledge of specific discussion topics to offer anything valuable to the discussion. *shrug*
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Tasia
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
That doesn't matter. Mehitabel23 is 16 (or at least she looks and acts like one, according to her bio she's actually 1684, going on 1685), and I'm 18. There's plenty of younguns on this site, it doesn't mean your opinion is worthless (or worth less). It does, however, mean you haven't grown old and cynical yet!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Tasia
Ha! Don't let that stop you. If you have time to waste, just jump in!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Well there you go, Joe CSS. I'm a happily married man but who could blame a guy for ogling an 1,800 year old Ixian shape-shifting, she-princess who wear clothing with pictures of naked women at a session? That's not being disrespectful, it's admiring a work of art, right?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Bathing suits are optional.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Sorry - my mistake. She's 1644 going on 1645.
(I said she was 40 years older than she actually is! Help me!!)
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Tasia, the real problem being discussed in this thread (I think) is the fact that there's something of a culture here that discourages people who aren't "experts" from contributing. Like this is some mountaintop that aspiring musicians may climb to consult the masters, rather than a discussion among people who share a common interest.
And then there have been some people who seem to aspire to be experts, who then prove themselves to know less than they say and who then get torn apart by the real experts, fueling the flames of the those-who-aren't-experts-should-not-contribute attitude.
I think that this is the real problem, and I think that gender is coincidental for the most part and not the real issue.
But anyway, I say post away if you have something you want to say. This board is as much for you as it is for the experts who have been playing for decades.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Mountaintop?!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
At our local session, approximately half of the participating musicians are women and that has been true for most of the time since this session was started in 1995.
As a matter of fact, the Original Culprit who did most of the work trying to start this session by finding a place to play in and putting flyers in local music stores and coordinating everything is a woman who is still participating regularly in the local session. She wanted to start a session here after participating in sessions in other states.
When she got tired of coordinating the local session after several years, another woman took over and she is still doing her best to keep the local session going.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Try "Romper Room"!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
My name here is obviously not gender neutral.
Our Sunday session has up to 12 players and at least 4-6 are women. Not all of us are playing the same instrument either. We have at least two who join in who play whistle, two who play flute, two who play violin, a dulcimer, a psaltry, a clarinet, and a guitar. The Saturday session I attend has at least 2 violinists who are women. A lot of guitars at that session and I'm the only woman on guitar.
I join in here on ocassion, although my sense of humor doesn't seem to get much of a response. That's a problem for women in general.
Considering that women still have to do it all - work, house, children, etc., it's amazing that we have time for ourselves to even play music, let alone join in on the discussion.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Reverend, Last Sunday evening, a fiddler introducing herself as Zina visited the session at O'Flaherty's in San Jose, California. She said something about being on her way to Asia. Would this have been the same Zina of all the posts? Finally, a face to go with the name. Good fiddler too. Now, could we get back to the subject of mountain lions?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
JOE - that dress is a stylised work of modern art. You can't see what the pattern actually is unless I point it out!!! It's a gorgeous dress!!! I'm going to wear it to the next session I go to. And as for over-estimating my age? This is the end. I will never contact you again.
JNE - you could be forgiven as long as it's the dress and hairdo that you're ogling.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think in ITM the female gender have a very strong voice..
Start to make a list of all the good Female players in it,,
And you'll see what I mean,,,
jim,,,,,
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Haha mehitabel, beware of any man ogling your "dress." Next he'll be asking to feel the fabric. Keep a brick in your purse. Or, considering your age, perhaps a gun would be more appropriate.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"But I expect they are all too busy bitching, shopping, nagging, being premenstral, cooking, talking bollox on the 'phone, crying, feeling ill, having headaches, doing their nails, driving badly, moaning about what a bad deal they get to get to the PC (or Mac)."
Actually, no, for most of the year or so I've been absent I've been too busy working on dismounted close combat equipment systems for infantry soldiers and stocking up my superannuation.
That plus the fact that all I could contribute is the occasionaly bit of craic anyway. And I am not deterred from posting by a preference for "more intimate conversations" either, I gernerally avoid such conversations all round. If I don't post here it's because I'm too busy with other things, the topic/fight du jour is not relevant to me, or I have nothing useful to contribute so I'll save the electrons.
I don't advertise my gender on any board I post on (though I don't go to extraordinary lengths to conceal it either) because I am sick to bloody death of people thinking they have a clue what I think/prefer and why, and what motivates me, on the basis of gender.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Tish
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Atahualpa, that would be one and the same... Did she have a large, short haired chap in tow? That would be the estimable Mr. Gillard (formerly known as Orson Carte in these parts). Good fiddlers, both. Zina is my ex-wife, and still a great friend. I was blessed growing up (musically) under her tutelage (or nagging, depending on how you look at it)
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I carry either three or four, of varying sizes, depending on the purse that I'm carrying.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I did say some 50 posts ago that gender should not matter.
But then I have always been enlightened.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Three or four bricks? Or guns?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Nicholas' point of how this discussion site is the cyber equivalent of a men's lodge has a lot of truth in it. It must seem to the women to be a pathetic, and patheticly male refuge at times. I move that we spruce the place up, bathe, and host a Ladys' Night. It's either that or elect someone to go out and bring back a Wendy.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
A selection of both.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Bring back a Wendy ? whats that ?
How much do they cost ?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Let the boys have some space where they to try to be important. Smile behind their backs. Meanwhile get on with the job.
Don't worry about us, mtodd. We say exactly as much as we want to.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by kuec
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Yes Reverend, There was a fellow there who met that description. PS That last post should have read "pathetically male refuge."
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Hmmm...I'm a stay-at-home dad, in touch with my care-giver, homemaker side. So do we have a third tally board for representation somewhere between the stereotypical male and female roles?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Someone's making a Wendy's run? I'm in. I'll take a cheeseburger, some fries, and a milkshake.
If we're talking actual folks at sessions, not just posters on the board, ours are split right down the middle. Sometimes the fellas are outnumbered, no one's complaining, and yes, I like my cave very much, thank you, as do all the cave babes. Ooga ma booga.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm lying, there are no caves in Florida, it's a giant sand bar, I use an enormous shell I found on the beach, not a cave.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Groan. It's nearly midnight and I'm still on this website...
Translate "Ooga ma booga", SWFL?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Isn't that cave man speak? I'm a little rusty. Sorry, shell man speak? Where's my club?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"I don't know where you're from, Random notes, but locally, mountain lions are usually called 'cougars'.
Of course, some of us LIKE being 'taken for prey' "
I thought that at least the North Americans would have taken my meaning.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I adore you all.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
...especially the dirty ol' men....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Not to bring up a cliche, but are you asking the question as if there's something different or distinctive about female posting as opposed to male posting? We use different words, say, than men? Express ourselves in some kind of secret woman-speak language? Hmmmpf. If I didn't sign myself mandogal (mando-gal) and refer to my husband, would you have known i was female?
Our group is mostly guys, although on a good night there are more than half a dozen women players: two boxes, a concertina, three flutes (wooden and silver), whistle-and-bodhran and me on mandolin. I've even led a session once upon a time, although that was a fluke. Some of our best players are women, some are men, and some of the women are as opinionated as the men and some are as quiet as the men. I find the flaming on this board entertaining, but have no wish to join the fray -- but i'm like that in real life anyway.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Oh, you just wait, Joe CSS, you'll be a dirty old man someday too... it's unavoidable
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm a woman, but I'm going to let my man friend sum it up rather than me. He asked me the other day: "Have you read those posts on The Session lately? Do you think those guys ever have any FUN playing music or are they too wrapped up in being 'right' and 'pure' to have any fun and just enjoy the music?"
Anyway, that was the question asked of me. I just nodded and smiled...I rarely have time to read all but a few posts, but this one caught my eye.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by swillybay
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
To answer your friend, swillybay, we do, indeed, have fun playing. And one of the reasons that some of us are wrapped up in being 'right' and 'pure' is because when it's not 'right' and 'pure', it isn't as much fun (for us, at least).
Oh, and a good old fashioned knock down, drag out argument on we forums can be fun too
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
ermmm, that's either "wee forums" or "web forums".... take your pick
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I love women. They are always without fail more interesting.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
hmmmm.....no thanks lads!
Best,
Jen Ford
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by bikejen
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Perhaps this is why there's not much female representation on this site
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8injvP1lJ8I
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"Oh, you just wait, Joe CSS, you'll be a dirty old man someday too... it's unavoidable"
Yep, all males are perverts from the age of about 13 or so, some just hide it better than others. So it's really just a matter of age.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Aw come on, I'm a nice guy, who do I ever get into a fight with? I'm here to learn stuff, have good craic and rub synapses with other like-minded brains. People make it sound like it's a gladiator arena in here. Sheesh.
No but seriously, there used to be something called debate in which parties presented their opinions and then through discussion, perhaps one opinion was proved to hold more weight than the other, or not, and things were learned in the process.
People see debating and think it's always vicious confrontation, me thinks.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
...and yes, puberty = dirty young manhood, it just progresses from there, well said Screetch. That's being a man for ya, someone's got to do it. No self-loathing on this cat, daddy-o. [snaps fingers]
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
You can make the argument that gender informs most social interactions and explain a great deal of behaviour using gender stereotypes. Above, posters have characterized the rows on thesession.org as male posters behaving aggressively, fighting over who is bigger, basically being testosterone poisoned men. Okay fine, but if it happened to have been a group of female posters duking it out, couldn't you have suggested that it was yet another instance of female bitchy catfighting?
It kind of fits with our heuristics for how men and women in our culture supposedly behave but is there actual evidence that there are more men on the board than women and that women on the board are significantly more likely to avoid confrontation? I doubt you could ever show that. Heuristics by definition are not empirically based but rather psychological shortcuts we take, often unconciously, in order to explain or predict behavior
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I think you're completely wrong Silver Spear, only because you're a woman and women shouldn't be spouting their irrelevant opinions on this board - Women, Know Your Limits!!!
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
For me the issue isn't the aggro levels (doesn't scare me but it's generally just such an inefficient way of communicating and I've got better things to do) as the signal-to-noise ratio.
When I signed up about 21,000 members ago there was off topic chatter and joking aplenty but I was learning all the time from what I was reading. The useful information content of posting has gone down a lot, partly because I know more than I did but partly because so much of what is posted now seems of "little educational value", shall we say. So I just look in every now and then on the off chance.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Tish
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Ever been to a ceilidh? Women are always right.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Ah jaysus lads, some of you take this site way too seriously. Most of the disagreements on this site are just harmful banter, sure it gets heated at times but to be honest I'd surprised if anyone gets too offended by the likes of llig leahcim, Key Maniac Lad or even me......
I think it's refreshing that you can have a heated debate with people you might never even meet.
If you want to test how many reasonable, level-headed females use this site why not post an outlandish sexist topic for discussion, such as 'Should women be allowed play this music?". Make sure to debate shamelessly that they shouldn't then we'll see how civil the women remain.
This is pretty much the kind of thing that gets said about guitarists. Guitarists are the most persecuted, downtrodden people of the trad world, much like women have been in the regular world!
All this trad stuff is bollox anyway, Congolese Rumba is much better.......
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Tish,
My feelings exactly! I think posts by people like Will Harmon are fantastic and very helpful, but the arguing over who is right and who is wrong is just plain destructive and a real turnoff for newbies like me. I train/ride/show dressage horses for part of my living, and there's enough of that in dressage to make me not want to deal with it in my hobby of playing fiddle.
Reverend, I do understand completely about when it's right and pure, it's more fun for the expert players (same with horses -- nobody likes riding with a dude, yet it has to be done). I'm definitely not even halfway to what I'm assuming is your level yet, but I don't see how I could ever get there if there weren't some sort of tolerance so that I could quietly sit in in a session here and there.
When I went to Willie Clancy week last year, my favorite evening was when a really good harp player let me sit in at a slow session, and she was so encouraging even though it was obvious I was not very knowledgeable or correct. She gave me much more inspiration to learn to do it right than the players who were not exactly encouraging (although I never dared asking to sit down with them, of course). Just my little 2 cents' worth, I guess!
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by swillybay
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Interesting Tish - I guess I'm still learning things here - like whose session might be fun to drop in on, and what kind of clothes to pack. but in all seriousness I have to say that while for the most part you all seem like good folks, I run into more sexism on this board than anywhere else, and I think it's partly because we're not looking at one another and one or two of you tend to forget there are women about, and partly because the mustard board (at least the discussion part of it) is more like any other internet forum than a real session, which explains why women are outnumbered here. anyway, thanks Screech for articulating the baggy jumper phenomenon, and SWFL for the nice tumbleweed imagery, and mtodd for igniting the house, ceol and FTT for being voices of reason (I like Madness too), and Mehitabel for the grand sewing ideas. Hah - just kidding - you'll get no sewing or cooking out of me...
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by airport
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Men and women are just different creatures, they think differently and so another reason why there may be more male testosterone type arguments here than female cat-fights is that the main topics of debate may not be ones that interest or worry women too much.
As an analogy to this look at this quote from the Wimbledon Tennis after-match comments by the woman who surprisingly knocked Maria Sharapova out today.
"It's very pleasant to beat Maria," she added. "Why? I don't like her outfit. She experiments, and I give her credit for that. She's brave enough to experiment.
"But it's a little too much of everything. It was one of the motivations to beat her."
Can you imagine Roger Federer saying he wanted to beat Nadal cos he didn't like his shirt???
It's all here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/7476187.stm
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Floccinaucinihilipilification, (wow, did you choose that name to discourage replies?) I have known several men who would want to beat other men over fashion. Don't confuse being male with being masculine.
My best friend in college was a big burly guy who was as gay as a three dollar bill and quite the dresser. But in some ways he was very masculine, and I looked more feminine on the surface (small, sensitive English major) although I was the straight one. It's not that simple.
And it's also very true that gay guys can be extremely masculine through and through while a straight guy might be feminine in personality from head to toe.
As someone said above, sex is between the legs but gender is between the ears. And that's an oversimplification.
I guess my point is, there are real distinctions between masculinity and femininity, but they are below the surface and don't always correspond to biological sex or outward appearance. So it's not really a male/female thing; at least not always.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Yeah, I've got this friend who's a big fat butch lesbian with piercings and tattoos, and you'd expect her to be like a man, but she likes knitting and kittens, so she must be a woman.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Dow
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Awww, Dow, we all like knitting and kittens! You've just been in Oz too long.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Most women I know are too busy doing other stuff
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Hup
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
...to mess around with online communities, video games, blogging etc.
Thanks goodness, because that means _we_ have time for that crap
[ducks, scampers out the door with Guiness unfinished]
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Hup
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
What is wanted on this forum,is civility.
Speaking from my own experience,on this forum,rudeness has been handed out in equal measure by both sexes.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Swillybay brought up dressage which is a great example of a sport where women get into heated discussions all the time over who is right and has the best methods for training/showing horses and more importantly, whose methods are rubbish. Pop over to any equestrian message board or website and I bet there will be some pretty intense arguments (if you want a good one, Google the word "rolkur").
My point is that rowing over who's right and wrong isn't something you can easily define using gender. In my experience, sessions tend to be fairly balanced. And as someone stated above, there is a huge spectrum of gendered behaviour and plenty of men who act more feminine and women who act more masculine.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
This "men who act more feminine and women who act more masculine" is such a problem at the local that we have taken to wearing labels on our clothing to avoid confusion.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by leoj
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I have a buddy who was in the Navy. He had shore leave once in Thailand, he had that same problem, the "men who act more feminine and women who act more masculine". We still tease him about it to this day. I know he wishes he never told us that story.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
most replies ive ever seen!
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by dinn2
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Women are a wee bit smarter than to engage in some of the battles here. We basically chuckle, think about dunderheads and move on. Carry on gents.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
That's the easy way out, what it really is is that ye don't have the intellect to comprehend what we're arguing about
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Don't know about session playing, but the music retail industry is very heavily male dominated with a lot of "rutting" behaviours. My wife just laughs at one trade magazine, MIPro, which we get sent every month and which we now refer to as "Blokes and Guitars Monthly". All the articles refer to business takeovers etc, using language such as "rout", "battle", "fight" etc etc. We just take the p*ss out of it.
But when I mentioned this discussion to her, she just said she personally doesn't like online forums, so maybe it's that that's a gender thing, rather than the topic?
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"That's the easy way out, what it really is is that ye don't have the intellect to comprehend what we're arguing about"
Right then.
The question was raised whether this discussion section has turned into a gender cliche. Nate suggests we women are busy cooking. Someone else suggested the gents are marking their territory. One of you is offering to wear a slinky shiny frock, women who wear baggy sweatshirts are making statements, someone is following big cat droppings, a fiddler from southwest florida is on a beach picking up sea shells, Joe CSS will be a dirty old man some day, somebody offered to make a Wendy’s run. We’ve heard from a female shape shifter and bb’s turned into something of the night.
What's not to understand?
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Well, Agnes, I think you've uncovered that women and men are different. Or rather, there are male and female ways of thinking. What's wrong with that?
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
PS my frock will remain in the closet tonight!
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Geez, Mark. You look so lovely in that frock too.
Yes, male/female perspectives are interestingly different. An author of popular fiction, wrote a doctoral thesis on this kind of difference. Her findings were that the male generally goes directly from point a to b to c and so on. Females on the other hand, get to c but on a much more convoluted route. I agree with her. But this discussion is pretty convoluted for being mostly from the male point of view. I'm having a good time reading it.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
The most entertaining analogy I've ever heard was one woman's view that relating with other women is a bit like living a Henry James novel, but with men was more like a spider man comic.
Hmm, sort of rings true around here, doesn't it?
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Is it not ironic that Henry James is a man?!!!
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Have you come across the work on agency / communion - where "agency" = male = tendency to want to set oneself apart and "communion" = female = working together, making connections. They don't exactly equate to men and women, as there are degrees of agency / communion in everyone, but that's a generic set of traits. The person who introduced me to this thinking, Kathleen King, had a lot to say about it - for example, that maturity was about being able to operate in both areas, as the situation demanded, and that organisations don't really have a language for "feminine" competencies of "working together, suppressing yourself for the greater good", etc, but only of masculine ones about winning, being separate, distinctive, etc. And of course, if they don't have a way of talking about feminine values, they don't really have a way of celebrating or promoting them either.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Not really, flocc, Henry James was able to observe the problem and solve it, and became a timeless author in the process. Know what I mean?
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Tish:
"I've been busy developing dismounted combat systems for infantry soldiers."
And you play trad music, too?
...
...
Will you marry me?
(And wear baggy sweatshirts to sessions with me?)
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Agnes. do keep that lovely sense of humour.
Someday you may find yourself engaged.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18245/comments#comment380347
# Posted on June 28th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
All my life I have loved to do "guy things" yet, am told I am rather on the feminine side in looks and demeanor. The music is mostly guys at least in these parts, East Coast, NY NJ area, but still there are many great female musicians. There's a good gang of 'the girls' i like to play with though. We don't do much of the girly stuff, we are too obsessed with the music. I grew up with knitting needles in my hands and am an expert Fair Isle and other style knitter, but from what I read, it was long ago first a men's craft. I rarely touch the needles anymore, would rather "hit the strings". My house... well sometimes I think I need a wife, or at least a mother! No domestic Goddess here at all.
I have spent my life among bookbinders for my "day job", which is male dominated (I make marbled paper, historic matches for book restoration), I build guitars, but the guys in luthier class always did a double take when I walked in. They tried to leave the toilet seat down and tried to not be too crude... that would last all of the first day.... I like stacking wood, loved using a chainsaw until it gave me carpal tunnel problems. Even jewelry making, a sideline job, in the commecial jewelry world, mainly guys. Unfortunately that stuff that looks like it came from the mall sells better than my way more interesting Celtic and Medieval jewelry. In five years of training for that, a true classical training, that was all female, but the commercial techniques, going to jewerly repair school, all men pretty much.
The guy stuff was just always more fun. And I have maybe too much to say on this board, esp. when it comes to guitar bashing. Trying to control myself a bit more. When you work at home alone, these web breaks and discussions sometimes are irresistable! It gets lonely down in the basement, and except for the music, events and sessions, I really am a bit of a hermit. But thankful I am working at all these days, it's feast or famine, and being in the "luxury item" business things were scary slow this year.... until now, when the "forces" know I am gearing up to go to CIAW! Too much work for a change, terrible timing, but also a relief! So I may chat a little less here for the time being!
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
irisnevins, thank you for the post. There must be a good many of us in lonely basements, garages, and such. That's my guess. Chin up!
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Oh girls just want to have fun . . .
who doesn't?
Chin up!
~ or as Bobbie would say ~
When first my brave Johnnie lad
Come to this town,
He had a blue bonnet
That wanted the crown;
But now he has gotten
A hat and a feather,--
Hey, brave Johnnie lad,
Cock up your beaver!
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Add to that list of people in lonely basements garages, the several among us who are handcuffed to radiators.
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
* *.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ABLRlgkLR5wC&dq=Julia+Hansen&pg=PP1&ots=R0EmZyuBHr&sig=ck26gUyvzliPgnkYXUXC5k4bf3Y&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1
# Posted on June 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
There are plenty of female musicians here in the Pioneer Valley (Western Mass). None of them are shy, they are all consumate musicians, very willing to share their talent with others. As for the comment made about children, housework and such, maybe that still exists, but most of the men I know have reached an equal sharing of responsibilities with their significant others. Maybe that has to do with being a musician and collaborating with others, I don't know.
If music is your priority, you find time to play. If checking out the mustard board is something you like to do, you participate in discussions you want to comment on. Perhaps the perceived lack of female responses on the board has more to do with wanting to avoid the inevitable crass comments some people make here; I have certainly seen women hold their own just fine here.
The thing that amazes me most about Irish/Celtic music is how it appeals across generations and gender. Both players and listeners all seems driven by the music, seems very egalitarian to me. I live watching little kids dance while I play.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Chained to radiators!! Hmmmm...
Well, my basement is very nice, I just need a disaster cleanup crew! Three studios in a walk out basement, so I have good sunlight. One room for paper marbling, another to build guitars in, though I don't have all the tools and toys I need....yet...but can go bend sides and such elsewhere...and a jewelry studio. it all adds up to a very modest living, but I get by somehow and have a great life really....though lately it involves in keeping the furnace way low in winter and hauling wood... and telling myself we are supposed to be cold in winter and it's healthy. But I have come to really believe that anyway and like carrying wood so there you go.
I played out today, four of the local girls and only two guys... so we did outnumber them this time. Honestly I don't care what gender as long as the music is good. They could be green and from Mars for all I care if they understand the music.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"I was chained to a radiator for four months"
"Wow. What was it like?"
"It was a single panel one with thermostatic valves"
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Michael
I get back from a week at the cottage and find this huge discussion. Wow. To answer your question, I don't often respond to discussions here because I've usually felt that no one really gives a darn. But that's not to say that we women of Toronto don't have lots to say on these topics. It might just be more fun to talk about musical things in person. Toronto has some great female musicians (I don't mean me) and we enjoy each others company.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by boxielady
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I would have replied earlier but I've been too busy cooking and cleaning and tidying up after other people.
I think there are plenty of women on this board and most give as good as they get in the discussions. We don't tend to get caught up in the arguments, but is that because the men on the board are less likely to be rude to or argue with women - yes, I know it's pointless anyway
I only got caught up in one heated debate and that was with a male member (now infamous) who thought I was a man and referred to me as "Bowburner Sir" which I found quite amusing. The outcome was peaceful enough.
So yes we are here. Just wake up and smell the perfume
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by bowburner
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
"To all the girls I've played tunes with before,
Who've wandered in and out my door,
I'm glad they came along,
I dedicate this song,
To all the girls I've played tunes with before..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSAODcg--Dc
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
Sweet!
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by bowburner
Re: Wanted: Female representation on/in these discussions....
I'm new to the board but from what i've seen so far it's evidently a pretty testosterone-laden forum at times. Perhaps the women are just getting on with the music and the craic. Or maybe we just cherry-pick what we need and leave the cut and parry to the regulars.
# Posted on July 5th 2008 by clogstepping