Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
What is the best way most of you do this? Buy a bunch of cd's from your favorite artists and just do a ton of listening and figuring out that way , sheet music(tab, notes, ect.) or do you learn most from jam sessions?
I guess the reason I ask is from listening and watching John Doyles rhythm guitar dvd, he mentions there a some tunes that are hard to just figure out on the fly , ie. not being simple 3 or 4 chords but much more complex that have to be learned just like a fiddle player or other melody players would have to.
Are there a lot of these "complex" tunes in ITM? Thanks guys.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Learn the melodies of tunes first, then figure out the chords and let the melody guide your backing. Listen to the tunes at sessions and back in the way you feel the music.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Ahem!-given the direction of a couple of the other threads today, is this a wind-up?
-Learn the tunes. I don't mean necessarily that you can play them on the guitar at session speed (I will probably get disagreements about that part), but at least know them in your head, so that you know where they're going, and where the tricky bits are.
-It's WAY more important to get the rhythm right than to be able to play a lot of fancy chords. IMHO.
-Concentrate on making the band/the music sound good, as opposed to making yourself sound "good". That may mean not playing at all.
-Personally, I find ABC's and MIDI's just about unlistenable, and have a hard time playing along with most commercial recordings. However, there are a lot of session recordings out on youtube and other places, and, just recently, some of our esteemed friends here have been posting examples of their playing, which I would consider to be a GREAT place to start.
-Yup, there a lot of those "complex" tunes in ITM. The trick is in knowing when to shut up. And like mehere said...
Just my opinion.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
JD,
I am about 4 years into ITM rhythm guitar, and also used Doyle's DVD.
There is no substitute for training your ear to hear chords. I don't know how necessary it is to be able to play the tune (melody line) on guitar, but at some point the tune ought to be in your head, because you need to be able to hear the changes coming, and that just takes a whole lot of practice. I used a couple of sources which had chords listed to get started my first year or so. such as the Fiddler's Fakebook, notes from a friend, and a few websites that have them. Now I pick them up entirely by ear, or try to--our mild-mannered session leader will gently throw something at me when I occasionally hit Em instead of Am. It gets easier with practice, but it takes a lot of practice.
To train your ear/learn tunes, listening to good recordings I found helpful, but there are sometimes drawbacks: CD's are expensive, not always readily available, and for someone starting out, often the tunes may be a little on the fast side.
To suppliment these, I used (and still do) midi files. I know others think they're terrible, but if you just want the bare bones of the tune, they're there, and the nice thing is that you can play them as slow as need be, when you're first learning (and you can speed them up as you get better).
Here's the best site I've found for midi files. Not every entry here is accurate, but there's usually a number of versions to choose from, and you can usually find one version in the right key that is reasonably well done. http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind
The best way to learn to back tunes is to play with others. You need to get yourself up to speed with a reasonable number of tunes you can back well (correct chords, good rhythm, etc) before inflicting yourself on a session, and if you've been following the discussions on this board at all, you know you need to be aware of how easily it is to damage a session and what appropriate behaivor is. Take a recorder so you can record tunes you don't know to learn them. Alternately, just take a recorder to a session you'd like to join, and spend several sessions just recording and learning the tunes ( be sure and ask if it's ok to do so), before you jump in with your guitar.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
This is a problem easily solved with a little technology.
When I was first learning to do backup I used ABC2WIN and a large collection of jigs and reels in .abc format. I randomly pick a tune, have the computer play them over and over until I nail the chord progressions, then I move on to another random tune.
This is the closest way I've found to simulating the actual session backup experience and worked very well for me, now I'm teaching others how to do the same.
That being said, I'm also primarily a melody player and I can't imagine how it would be for a non-melody player to learn to back tunes as I'm already familiar with the keys and modes of the tunes before I ever started backing. My suggestion would be to anyone who wants to back this music is to take up mandolin or whistle and learn the tunes, then learn to back the tunes.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
I think that there's an important point here; not every tune, that you don't previously know, is going to be easy to chord to, even after years of experience.
You have got to have the humility to say to yourself "I don't know this tune, and the chording/accompaniment is not obvious, I'm going to sit this one out/get another drink/take a loo break at this convenient point." Even admit that your struggling to find the right notes is going to mightily pee off some of the other musicians, and you don't HAVE TO play on every single tune.
When I was involved in setting up a new band, for dances, many years ago, we actually sat down and worked through the repertoire, and rigourously analysed individual bars, where there was any doubt, to make sure that we were playing the correct chords, not just something that roughly sounded correct. Obviously this is more important when you're going out as any sort of professional outfit, but the discipline is very educational. Sometimes we were surprised ourselves - did you know that there is an Aminor chord in the B part of The Rights of Man ?
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Michael Eskin explains it well! I would suggest though it's better to be picking the tunes on your particular instrument, guitar, though knowing them on the whistle or mandolin won't hurt either. You don't have to play them on performance level, and may never play them out, or you may, but the main thing is that you become increasingly familiar with the structure of the tunes, they keys, the patterns and the oft times breakings of them, by ear. listening and absorbing the music to the point where many tunes are familiar and you carry them around in your mind is important too. It all takes time, but it should be enjoyable!
the more you get to know what notes live where on the guitar, the easier the job gets. You can know this technically by note names or by ear and sound. there are also of course many possible octaves. Guitar really is a very complex instrument, more than many, if you dare to delve deeply into it.
I started as a kid as a melody player on guitar, though it was not Irish, I adapted to it easily later. I think it's a great gift to put some melody instrument into every kid's hands as soon as they are able or show interest. It's a language, and you can learn a new language late in life of course, but it's easier when younger. You can still do it, learn a bunch of melodies, have some fun with it.
One thing too, is record sessions and play them back slowly without changing pitch, keep at it until you get it, and as Mike says, then do another and another and so on. People in their practice get frustrated and want to play great next week, it doesn't work that way. Baby steps, not all at once or nothing. It's a work in progress too, whether melody playing or backing, that is nevery finished, you always will find something new to do if you look for it.
That said, I'd like to be a genius on the harp TOMORROW. I just started in Januray... But am enjoying the baby steps. If you don't enjoy them, and have the patience and love of the music, it just doesn't go very far.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
It really helps to know the tune by name so that you can hum it in your head when somebody mentions it.
Then as long as you can easily hum the tune in your head against whatever you are playing, you won't be hard to play with.
and learn to be sparse. I think that is really at the root of all the problems with guitarists. Full on strummer chords muddy things up. Two or three notes is all you need.
I think the main thing is that these tunes are melody driven, and not chord driven, so the role of the instrument is alot different. As a guitar player, you have to accept the role, or learn the tin whistle.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
I learn tunes by listening to them and trying to sing them (ok, easier with some tunes than others). Once I can sing them I then try to play them on whatever instrument I have at hand (mandolin, guitar or, very occasionally fiddle). Then I might think about what chords could be used to accompany the tune. it's worth remembering that a lot of tunes weren't composed with an underlying harmonic progression in the composer's head. In those cases a satisfactory chordal accompaniment might not be obvious. And just as there is not one definitive version of a melody so there is not one definitive accompaniment.
Guernsey Pete, you mention an Am chord in the B part of The Rights of Man. I don't see/hear any chords in the tune, just individual notes. But I do use an Am7 chord in the A part. In the B part I use an A7 as well as a D#dim and a whole bunch of other chords.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Well, seeing as we had a chordal rhythm instrument ( guitar ) and a bass instrument ( bass ) in our barn dance band, we thought it was quite important to do it right.
If you take each bar apart ( what an awful thing to do, eh ?, to this beautiful flowing piece of music ), and recognise the main notes of the melody, as opposed to passing notes or decorations, carefull consideration led us to believe that the most appropriate chord to be played in the 5th and 6th bars of the B part was an Aminor.
Of course, you may well have an entirely different opinion on this matter. Let's just hope we're both not trying to accompany the Rights of Man in the same session at the same time, as it could be caucophanous.
I do always recognise that the melodies carry, indicate, or hint at, the most appropriate chords to be played, if accompanying, but I've always recognised also that as the tradition was originally carried by single instruments, then the tunes had to show the harmonies by their internal structure, without outside aid, like guitar, bouzouki, or piano.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
At our local session, we play Rights Of Man in e minor and these are the chords I use in the first half or "A" part of this hornpipe.
e minor
C Major
a minor
B7 Major
e minor
C Major
B7 Major
e minor
Then, in the second half, or "B" part, I play these chords:
e minor
D Major
e minor
D Major
G Major
C Major
B7 Major
e minor
I have been playing Rights Of Man this way for several years and no one has suggested or asked me to change these chords.
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Well, with the melody as our group plays it I use the chords:
A part:
Em
Em - G
C - G/B
Am7 - B7
Em - B7
Em - D/F# - G
C - B7
Em
B part:
Em - B7 2nd time: G - C
Em- A7 2nd time G/B - A7
D
D - D#dim
Em - Em/D#
Em/D - Em/C#
C - B7
Em
Yeah, I know, I like to pack them in, but it is a hornpipe!
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
I should say that the above setting is for dancing to and not necessarily what I would play "in session". If there was another guitar player there already I might just pick the melody if I played at all.
Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
What is the best way most of you do this? Buy a bunch of cd's from your favorite artists and just do a ton of listening and figuring out that way , sheet music(tab, notes, ect.) or do you learn most from jam sessions?
I guess the reason I ask is from listening and watching John Doyles rhythm guitar dvd, he mentions there a some tunes that are hard to just figure out on the fly , ie. not being simple 3 or 4 chords but much more complex that have to be learned just like a fiddle player or other melody players would have to.
Are there a lot of these "complex" tunes in ITM? Thanks guys.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by JD-DHguitar
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Listen, listen, listen and keep listening.......
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by mehere
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Learn the melodies of tunes first, then figure out the chords and let the melody guide your backing. Listen to the tunes at sessions and back in the way you feel the music.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Ahem!-given the direction of a couple of the other threads today, is this a wind-up?
-Learn the tunes. I don't mean necessarily that you can play them on the guitar at session speed (I will probably get disagreements about that part), but at least know them in your head, so that you know where they're going, and where the tricky bits are.
-It's WAY more important to get the rhythm right than to be able to play a lot of fancy chords. IMHO.
-Concentrate on making the band/the music sound good, as opposed to making yourself sound "good". That may mean not playing at all.
-Personally, I find ABC's and MIDI's just about unlistenable, and have a hard time playing along with most commercial recordings. However, there are a lot of session recordings out on youtube and other places, and, just recently, some of our esteemed friends here have been posting examples of their playing, which I would consider to be a GREAT place to start.
-Yup, there a lot of those "complex" tunes in ITM. The trick is in knowing when to shut up. And like mehere said...
Just my opinion.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by tomw
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
some info here, FWIW
http://www.danmozell.com/guitart.htm
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
JD,
I am about 4 years into ITM rhythm guitar, and also used Doyle's DVD.
There is no substitute for training your ear to hear chords. I don't know how necessary it is to be able to play the tune (melody line) on guitar, but at some point the tune ought to be in your head, because you need to be able to hear the changes coming, and that just takes a whole lot of practice. I used a couple of sources which had chords listed to get started my first year or so. such as the Fiddler's Fakebook, notes from a friend, and a few websites that have them. Now I pick them up entirely by ear, or try to--our mild-mannered session leader will gently throw something at me when I occasionally hit Em instead of Am. It gets easier with practice, but it takes a lot of practice.
To train your ear/learn tunes, listening to good recordings I found helpful, but there are sometimes drawbacks: CD's are expensive, not always readily available, and for someone starting out, often the tunes may be a little on the fast side.
To suppliment these, I used (and still do) midi files. I know others think they're terrible, but if you just want the bare bones of the tune, they're there, and the nice thing is that you can play them as slow as need be, when you're first learning (and you can speed them up as you get better).
Here's the best site I've found for midi files. Not every entry here is accurate, but there's usually a number of versions to choose from, and you can usually find one version in the right key that is reasonably well done.
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind
The best way to learn to back tunes is to play with others. You need to get yourself up to speed with a reasonable number of tunes you can back well (correct chords, good rhythm, etc) before inflicting yourself on a session, and if you've been following the discussions on this board at all, you know you need to be aware of how easily it is to damage a session and what appropriate behaivor is. Take a recorder so you can record tunes you don't know to learn them. Alternately, just take a recorder to a session you'd like to join, and spend several sessions just recording and learning the tunes ( be sure and ask if it's ok to do so), before you jump in with your guitar.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Go along to Key Maniac Lad's session and sit in.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/cruiseroisin/myhomepage/makingmusic.html
Just follow the directions.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Be sure and take your amp. And compliment him on the new web-page.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
This is a problem easily solved with a little technology.
When I was first learning to do backup I used ABC2WIN and a large collection of jigs and reels in .abc format. I randomly pick a tune, have the computer play them over and over until I nail the chord progressions, then I move on to another random tune.
This is the closest way I've found to simulating the actual session backup experience and worked very well for me, now I'm teaching others how to do the same.
That being said, I'm also primarily a melody player and I can't imagine how it would be for a non-melody player to learn to back tunes as I'm already familiar with the keys and modes of the tunes before I ever started backing. My suggestion would be to anyone who wants to back this music is to take up mandolin or whistle and learn the tunes, then learn to back the tunes.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Michael Eskin
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
I think that there's an important point here; not every tune, that you don't previously know, is going to be easy to chord to, even after years of experience.
You have got to have the humility to say to yourself "I don't know this tune, and the chording/accompaniment is not obvious, I'm going to sit this one out/get another drink/take a loo break at this convenient point." Even admit that your struggling to find the right notes is going to mightily pee off some of the other musicians, and you don't HAVE TO play on every single tune.
When I was involved in setting up a new band, for dances, many years ago, we actually sat down and worked through the repertoire, and rigourously analysed individual bars, where there was any doubt, to make sure that we were playing the correct chords, not just something that roughly sounded correct. Obviously this is more important when you're going out as any sort of professional outfit, but the discipline is very educational. Sometimes we were surprised ourselves - did you know that there is an Aminor chord in the B part of The Rights of Man ?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Michael Eskin explains it well! I would suggest though it's better to be picking the tunes on your particular instrument, guitar, though knowing them on the whistle or mandolin won't hurt either. You don't have to play them on performance level, and may never play them out, or you may, but the main thing is that you become increasingly familiar with the structure of the tunes, they keys, the patterns and the oft times breakings of them, by ear. listening and absorbing the music to the point where many tunes are familiar and you carry them around in your mind is important too. It all takes time, but it should be enjoyable!
the more you get to know what notes live where on the guitar, the easier the job gets. You can know this technically by note names or by ear and sound. there are also of course many possible octaves. Guitar really is a very complex instrument, more than many, if you dare to delve deeply into it.
I started as a kid as a melody player on guitar, though it was not Irish, I adapted to it easily later. I think it's a great gift to put some melody instrument into every kid's hands as soon as they are able or show interest. It's a language, and you can learn a new language late in life of course, but it's easier when younger. You can still do it, learn a bunch of melodies, have some fun with it.
One thing too, is record sessions and play them back slowly without changing pitch, keep at it until you get it, and as Mike says, then do another and another and so on. People in their practice get frustrated and want to play great next week, it doesn't work that way. Baby steps, not all at once or nothing. It's a work in progress too, whether melody playing or backing, that is nevery finished, you always will find something new to do if you look for it.
That said, I'd like to be a genius on the harp TOMORROW. I just started in Januray... But am enjoying the baby steps. If you don't enjoy them, and have the patience and love of the music, it just doesn't go very far.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
There are no complex Irish tunes.We're not dealing with Scriabin here.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Er, bliss....stop it!!
Max
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by maxF
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
It really helps to know the tune by name so that you can hum it in your head when somebody mentions it.
Then as long as you can easily hum the tune in your head against whatever you are playing, you won't be hard to play with.
and learn to be sparse. I think that is really at the root of all the problems with guitarists. Full on strummer chords muddy things up. Two or three notes is all you need.
I think the main thing is that these tunes are melody driven, and not chord driven, so the role of the instrument is alot different. As a guitar player, you have to accept the role, or learn the tin whistle.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
I learn tunes by listening to them and trying to sing them (ok, easier with some tunes than others). Once I can sing them I then try to play them on whatever instrument I have at hand (mandolin, guitar or, very occasionally fiddle). Then I might think about what chords could be used to accompany the tune. it's worth remembering that a lot of tunes weren't composed with an underlying harmonic progression in the composer's head. In those cases a satisfactory chordal accompaniment might not be obvious. And just as there is not one definitive version of a melody so there is not one definitive accompaniment.
Guernsey Pete, you mention an Am chord in the B part of The Rights of Man. I don't see/hear any chords in the tune, just individual notes. But I do use an Am7 chord in the A part. In the B part I use an A7 as well as a D#dim and a whole bunch of other chords.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Well, seeing as we had a chordal rhythm instrument ( guitar ) and a bass instrument ( bass ) in our barn dance band, we thought it was quite important to do it right.
If you take each bar apart ( what an awful thing to do, eh ?, to this beautiful flowing piece of music ), and recognise the main notes of the melody, as opposed to passing notes or decorations, carefull consideration led us to believe that the most appropriate chord to be played in the 5th and 6th bars of the B part was an Aminor.
Of course, you may well have an entirely different opinion on this matter. Let's just hope we're both not trying to accompany the Rights of Man in the same session at the same time, as it could be caucophanous.
I do always recognise that the melodies carry, indicate, or hint at, the most appropriate chords to be played, if accompanying, but I've always recognised also that as the tradition was originally carried by single instruments, then the tunes had to show the harmonies by their internal structure, without outside aid, like guitar, bouzouki, or piano.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
X: 1
T: Rights Of Man, The
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: hornpipe
K: Emin
|:GA|B2A2 G2F2|EFGA B2ef|gfed edBd|cBAG A2GA|
BcAB GAFG|EFGA B2ef|gfed Bgfg|e2 E2 E2:|
|:ga|babg efga|babg egfe|d^cde fefg|afdf a2gf|
edef gfga|bgaf gfef|gfed Bgfg|e2 E2 E2:|
You must be playing it in Dm, right?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
At our local session, we play Rights Of Man in e minor and these are the chords I use in the first half or "A" part of this hornpipe.
e minor
C Major
a minor
B7 Major
e minor
C Major
B7 Major
e minor
Then, in the second half, or "B" part, I play these chords:
e minor
D Major
e minor
D Major
G Major
C Major
B7 Major
e minor
I have been playing Rights Of Man this way for several years and no one has suggested or asked me to change these chords.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Well, with the melody as our group plays it I use the chords:
A part:
Em
Em - G
C - G/B
Am7 - B7
Em - B7
Em - D/F# - G
C - B7
Em
B part:
Em - B7 2nd time: G - C
Em- A7 2nd time G/B - A7
D
D - D#dim
Em - Em/D#
Em/D - Em/C#
C - B7
Em
Yeah, I know, I like to pack them in, but it is a hornpipe!
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
That's to accompany:
X: 1
T: The Rights of Man
M: C
L: 1/8
Q: 1/4=144
K: Em
G>A|B>cA>B G>AF>G|E>FG>A B2e>f|g>fe>d e>dB>d|c>BA>G A2G>A|
B>cA>B G>AF>G|E>FG>A B2e>f|g>fe>d B>gf>g|e2E2 E2:| g>a|b>ab>g e>fg>a|b>ab>g e>gf>e|d2d>^c d>ef>g|a>fd>f a2g>f|
e>de>f g>fg>a|(3bag a>f g>fe>f|g>fe>d B>gf>g|e2E2 E2:|
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
Missed a return after E2 E2:|
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Irish rhythm guitar backers: How do you learn tunes?
I should say that the above setting is for dancing to and not necessarily what I would play "in session". If there was another guitar player there already I might just pick the melody if I played at all.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by DonaldK