In the interests of full disclosure, I play guitar and bouzouki and can and do play both melody and accompaniment, though I generally enjoy accompaniment more, as I find it more challenging for me personally.
Why is it that guitarists routinely are accursed for ruining a session?
Is it that guitarists are more likely than other players to just leap in unheeding and try to play along?
Is it that more guitarists are musically uneducated?
Is it that lots of other players annoy people at sessions too but guitarists are scapegoats and receive the lion's share of the blame?
Is it that they are traditional enough?
Or is it not so much guitarists as 'strummers' which isn't necessarily the same thing? Is it just that accompaniment is anathema? Then what about guitarists who play melody?
And what about bouzoukis, anyway.
These are intended as serious questions, not attempts to start a row.
Rather than focus on the bad - I'll tell you what I like about some of the great session guitar players that I get to sit in with. Firstly and most importantly, they know the music. The can drive and lift the tunes, and pull back and create space. They play with the melody players, not over the top of them. Secondly, since backing is so subjective and varied in it's approach, they gladly take turns so as not to step on each other's playing or muddle things up for the melody players. It is an absolute delight to play music with these guys. They are consummate musicians and help our session levitate off the floor every Sunday.
I can think of one or two guys who came to our session once or twice, failed to listen to what anyone else was doing, strummed relentlessly, and then left, never to be mourned.
It's the sensitivity to what everyone else that is doing, or the lack of it, that can irritate.
Oh, one other thing; I've never heard a good session guitar player yell "hey, what key is that in?" repeatedly at the melody player as he/she is trying to kick off the tune.
>> These are intended as serious questions, not attempts to start a row.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
FWIW, I like guitars and bouzoukis in sessions. As with other instruments, a poorly played guitar can drag the life out of a session, whereas a well played one can inject energy.
At least part of the stigma comes from the fact that there are millions of people that play guitar that have no clue about the rhythm of Irish music. And these people often assume that because they know how to strum chords on a guitar, that they can automatically add something to the music. The majority of them learn pretty quickly that they aren't doing it well, and many of them go on to learn ways to do it nicely. But there are exceptions to that. And as usual, a few eejits can ruin the craic for the masses.
Another personal pet peeve of mine is bouzoukis that are played like guitars. Chords chords and more chords. The thing I like about a bouzouki in Irish music is the open tuning, with drone strings, interesting picking patterns, and counter melodies. People that play bouzouki like a loud guitar are generally missing the beauty of the instrument.
Oh, and to add to what JNE said, most of these guitar players that aren't immersed in the music have a difficult time grasping the idea of modal tunes. Even when someone is kind and tries to tell someone the key, it's only somewhat useful, because a lot of this music doesn't fit within the confines of western music theory.
Most guitarists who take so much as a gnat's interest in their playing are musically articulate - i.e. know their keys and chords and sequences and inversions and things. Given the company of an ITM guitarist who can explain the modes, "translating" them if need be into the terminology the newbie knows, the latter might pick them up readily - goodness knows, enough pop etc. guitarists have gone on and done so. But changing from standard tuning to DADGAD etc. might take a bit of getting used to. (My own brief and ignominious fumblings with guitar never got that far, so I personally wouldn't know.)
Amen, Reverend. I'm new to the bouzouki (I've been playing it for about a year and a half) and what I have enjoyed about it (after 20+ years playing the guitar) are the differences between bouzouki and guitar.
There certainly are plenty of rock and roll guitarists who are ready to leap in and play everything as if it were rock and roll, but there are a lot of great guitarists out there who understand ITM. They get it and can play it extremely well. It often seems, however, that all guitarists get tarred with the same brush. I was just wondering why.
In America I think there is a sort of cultural mismatch between the "guitar player" ethos and ITM. This mismatch creates friction and annoyance when it crops up in an Irish session. Some aspects of the guitar player mythology that really clash with ITM:
The centrality of the guitar in popular American music: rock and roll, country, blues, and folk music. The guitar as symbol of authenticity, individualism, phallus, etc. This is versus the quite secondary and optional nature of the guitar or of any accompaniment in ITM.
The association of the guitar with "jamming" (bluegrass jams, blues jams, rock and roll jam bands) and the tendency to conflate "jam session" with "Irish session". Part of this is the idea that people take turns playing solos while the rest play accompaniment, as opposed to the unison melody playing of ITM.
The groove-oriented nature of popular music, in which a solid rhythmic accompaniment is thought to be a necessary foundation for melody to be played over.
The simple major or minor tonalities of popular American music (versus the Dorian, Mixolydian, and gapped scales so common in ITM).
The democratic, anti-elitist ideal that everyone should be allowed to participate/dabble in whatever sort of hobby they feel like, no matter how little they actual know about it, or how inept they are at it, or what effect they are having on the actual outcome. (That sounds harsh, but there it is.)
Let the record reflect that I too play guitar and am just as "guilty" as anyone of the cultural baggage mentioned above. That's step one, rigth -- admitting you have a problem?
Well said crazy_fingerz, but my brain is still reeeling from the Jungian symbology of guitar as phallus. Between that and the finger in the dyke comment, this thread is brimming over with innuendo.
So, my guitar playing has a Freudian meaning - because I'm a woman. Actually, when I learned to play folk guitar, most of the kids in my class were other teenage girls. Hmmm. But, sometimes a guitar is just a guitar.
I would love to be able to play other instruments. I've only learned the one well enough to play with a group (or solo). And, I started playing folk style which is very simple and basic. I did learn to read notes when I was about 9 years old. But that never translated into playing anything I heard on the radio.
It took me some time to learn to play with the group. (Some might say that I still don't do it.) I know various progressions in various keys, but I can't just join in and hear the chord changes. Don't know why - I just don't hear it.
So, if I can't watch what another guitar player is doing, I don't strum to join in, I just strum on the downbeat to see if I can hear the chord changes. And, I do it very softly and usually end up not playing the song.
If I remember Desmond Morris correctly (The Naked Ape ?) he theorised that the classical and acoustic guitars are female, (obvious from the shape), but became masculine with the invention of the Fender Stratocaster with it's phallic headstock.
Where's the telecaster fit in with Desmond's theory's then, with it's smaller and more elegant headstock but more chunky square-cut body ? And what about the extra shaping on the strat, so it fits better to the body ?
Personally I'm a tele caster man ( you can tell that by how much time I spend in front of one. Boom, Boom ! ), although I'm building a 'beefed-up' strat for a young lady at the moment.
And back to the bouzouki question....
I am of the opinion that you can use ( strum ) a 'zouk anywhere you could strum a guitar, but NOT because it sounds the same, but because it sounds different - I'm a GDae with octaves player myself.
Dunno Pete, you'll have to ask Desmond (if he's still alive ?) I don't really subscribe to the theory myself...I think the symbolism is in the eye of the beholder. I have a gorgeous custom-made Strat and I do get pleasure from the lines and proportions, kinda graceful. I tend to think that if form follows function, without any unnecessary embellishment, the result is usually elegant. I have to admit, I am a guitar fetishist. I can easily spend a happy hour gazing at headstocks and bridges and inlay and tuning heads...
It's all about listening and taking the time to honor and
respecting the music. Remember, it's very difficult for
many guitarists to grasp the concept of not overplaying.
Isn't that what guitarist do. (a bit of stereotype here)
Traditional Irish music has a propensity to not be intuitive all
the time. Because of that, it will frustrate many a guitarist
and have them step on the melody and overplay.
That's what threw me a curve when I was learning this style of music. Patience is certainly a virtue in good rhythmic accompaniment. Drive the music but do it with grace and finasse. John Doyle is a primo example of grace and
finasse.
One reason guitars and zouks and any other chordal or harmonic accompaniment rankles some Irish melody players is that, by their very nature, they dictate the key/mode of the tunes, instead of leaving that up to the meldoy players, or leaving it ambiguous.
Also, even discrete strumming can blur the nuances of good melody players and dictate the rhythmic feel.
Personally, I like both options--playing without backing, and playing with backing. In a session, they are two very different musical situations, and I can enjoy either one for what each is.
Accompanying Irish tunes is a special niche with relatively high standards. If you don’t understand that niche or don’t have the expected skill and knowledge, you’re likely to annoy some of the players. Plus, that special niche has several sub-styles, any one of which might be preferred at a session. If the tune players really want an Alec Finn approach and you come in all John Doyley on them, they might consider the session ruined, even though you played brilliantly.
Since the accompaniment can go a long way toward defining the overall sound, I think it’s fair for the tune players to be picky about it. I maen, a guitarist can practically arrange (as in "orchestrate") the music.
That's a dangerous weapon there, the ol' six string. It can speed you up, slow you down, hold you back, make the tune sound funny, force you to do all sorts of things you didn't want to do when you started playing the tune.
I think that's a key point here the last few posts are reinforcing, and I personally never really thought about it that deeply before. These instruments seem innocent but in reality they are very dangerous, and therein lies the problem, when there is a problem. There isn't always a problem. People do learn how to and do it well. I'm not one of them, so I don't.
AP News, Ballyfeckit -- A live guitar went off inside a crowded downtown pub this evening, killing the craic and wounding several others. A police spokesperson said the preliminary investigation indicates that the guitarist also apparently perished in the attack....
Press Release, International Guitar Control Lobby -- Due to the recent situation in Ballyfeckit, we are calling for immediate installations of guitar detectors in all sessions. This unfortunate incident is certainly a reason for over-reaction and PR points making. Our people are currently appearing on cable news programs and taking politicians out to dinner in an all-out campaign. Thank you.
Press Release, National Guitar Association -- We condemn this over-reaction by the IGCL, and believe that any publican that can't see a blasted guitar case on the way in the door must be a complete eejit. Thank you.
Guitarists ruin sessions because they're so paranoid about ruining sessions they forget to enjoy themselves. Having said that, you wouldn't walk into a string quartet and try to play along
on the old Takamine unless you were extremely conversant with the genre. In a lot of ways i think the modern Irish music scene is just as serious as the classical scene. There's nothing wrong with that, people's expectations can be very high as a result. I think guitar players have got to respect the amount of time it takes for the other instrumentalists to develop there repertoire, and then take it just as seriously, but enjoy the art and the science of it while doing it. But the bottom line is in my view for guitars and bodhrans is, if your not really into it, dont try it.
Guitar players typically come to ITM in the U.S. AFTER having become proficient in some other style. Many poor Irish players are truly EXCELLENT players in other styles. But if you search for Royce Gracie and Akebono on YouTube, you can see what happens if you take the great Sumo wrestler out of the Sumo ring.
But the guitarists you get in an Irish trad session are often better than average. They are out seeking new musical experiences, rather than staying in their comfort zone. That is why they are better than average. BUT... when they come in from other styles, such as bluegrass, or blues, or jazz, or classical, they have very little in the way of Irish Traditional role models at first. All their role models, their standards of excellence, are in other styles.
This is kind of unique. Even a bluegrass fiddle player can usually quickly adjust to the reels, anyway, by matching his melody to the others, and observing a more experienced Irish player in context. After all, playing the melody, and assuming some observance of time, there's only so much damage he can do.
The guitarist, on the other hand, has no such point of reference. The only way he's going to learn quickly is if there's another experienced guitarist to learn from. If there's no other guitarist, the guitarist coming new to the session, even if he's excellent, will have no way of knowing whether or not he's screwing up. Paradoxically, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, he'll have no way of knowing what he doesn't know! And most melody players don't have the vocabulary to explain it to him, and don't want to take the time DURING the session, of course, because it takes up time, and because they don't want to put the guitar player on the spot.
But given a good local role model to emulate, I think most guitar players who self select to seek out an Irish session are quickly trainable.
Maybe it's time to make a few free youtube tutorials to point new guitar players to.
The problem in the United States is a little quoted addition to the Second Amendment to the Constitution which reads:
“ A well regulated Session, being necessary to the profitability of a pub or other such estabishment, the right of the people to keep and bear Guitars, shall not be infringed. "
In the case of C.F. Martin v. Pennsylvania, the state attempted to have all guitars leaving the factory contain tracer markings which could not be modified so that guitars could be traced back to their owners. Most recently, Clarence Thomas, wrote for the majority in a 5-4 decision (Bryer, Ginsberg, Stevens, and Souter dissenting) that the right to bear guitars was subject to strict scrutiny and the infringing upon the right granted by this clause of the constitution could only occur if there were a compelling interest to regulate them. In a related case, separate accommodations for guitar players were found to be unconstitutional as well. The court did not rule on the right to carry a concealed guitar since they found that to be a moot point.
I don't like getting dissed at sessions. But, I also think it depends upon the type of session you attend. I go to sessions which are guitar friendly.
I think the musicians are harder on themselves. The people we play for really like what they hear. I'm not that good, but there are people here in our town who come up to me after a session or at other times and comment on how much they liked what they heard. It's a compliment for the entire group and I was part of that. Sometimes, I think as session wasn't that great and yet I hear nice comments.
I play for me -- I play for those who listen . I try to play with the group.
The day that anyone at all can walk around with a concealed guitar in the U.S. is the day I move to Canada. As if there were not enough problems in our cities already!
Could it be that the guitarist runs into trouble because they have to reinvent the wheel every time they sit down to play? If you're playing fiddle or whistle or box, and someone changes the accent a little, you can adjust to them. If you're playing guitar, they've probably just changed the harmony and what you know about the tune just changed in some way, maybe in some important way. Then too, in a roomful of fiddlers, every one of them knows what the other fiddlers are supposed to do - they're supposed to play the tune. On the other hand, every man jack (and woman jane) of them probably has a different idea of how the guitar should best accompany the tune, either more chop on the beat or less mechanical, either stick to the explicit harmony or put in the stuff that's implicit, either fill it out or get out of the way...
Granted, lots of guitarists really aren't good enough for any of this to matter, they never learned where to start, but can we at least concede that even the reasonably skilled guitarist is in a pretty unwinnable situation?
(and then go back to telling them to please stop making such a terrible racket of such a lovely tune)
I guess there's number of ways a guitar can wreck a session. The most difficult thing for most backers who do not play melody (or melody instruments) is to realize that they are backing, and should not be in the front of music. On one hand, they have much more freedom in terms of choosing what they play, on the other - they should keep their head low, listen intently to the melody and just add some spice to what others create. Some people's ego just doesn't take this very well.
Another thing is, and I know it from personal experience, that you have to try everything to understand that the most simple things are the most elegant, and the most discreet addition can be stronger that high volume and incredible techniques. In the process of acquiring this knowledge, people will get hurt (aesthetically) and you will get hurt (emotionally, if people resort only to diminishing your ego and once you learn that your Santana-like techniques do not win appreciation). Is the effect worth it? I don't know. It's just how it works.
It sometimes helps when you try to move to a melody instrument and suddenly realize what is the impact of good/bad backing on your playing skills (especially when you are still in the process of learning and everything disrupts your concentration). When I started to play the flute, my backing style changed a lot and became VERY soft.
Of course, there are those who don't learn. But these people can be found in any walk of life
Hey J, you make videos, man! I'd watch you play guitar all day, then still scratch my head and give up. J does those things where he plays alternate chords on other people's guitars across the room while he's still playing his own. J plays chords in other dimensions, beyond the normal space/time continuum.
Too bad I missed this one.
When I listen to trad music I hear the traditional instruments ~ pipes, fiddle, whistle. Mainly melody. Certainly the harp is a traditional instrument. Perhaps guitar is more closely related to harp than to fiddle or flute.
I do need to listen to more harp.
I beieve the good guitarists, in session, are the ones' who have really listened to flute & fiddle.
I have one guitar playing friend . . . on 2nd thought, best I not go there.
An experience I fondly remember involved the wedding of an Irish friend to his American bride. The Irishman (from Galway) was a fine multi-instrumentalist and many of his fellow sessioneers were at the wedding. The bride's brother was an accomplished and highly trained jazz guitarist who could comfortably sit in with jazz musicians of professional caliber and hold his own -- in fact, turn heads. He'd heard from his sister about the great Irish music that her new husband and his buddies played regularly and was anxious to give it a go. His parents, siblings, and others were talking up how proficient he was and how much he could add to any musical ensemble.
Cases, were opened and instruments were deployed. As the first tune started, he grabbed a few chords, got this WTF?? look on his face, and dropped out after about 10 seconds. Next tune, the same thing. Third tune, he put away his guitar and just enjoyed listening. To his credit, he quickly realized that all his instincts as a jazz guitarist were wrong in this context, that harmonic elaboration didn't suit the music, and that his contribution was only wrecking it. Perhaps because he was the bride's brother who'd traveled several hundred miles for the occasion, no one had given him an evil stare or otherwise indicated any disapproval. He determined, all by his lonesome, that his not participating served the greater good of the music.
A tip of the hat to this sensitive and sensible musician. Although I think he was really looking forward to showing off a bit at his sister's wedding, he had the good taste and musical judgment to refrain. He very quickly heard how the chords didn't fit the tonality of the melody. Certainly, in my view, he couldn't have more ably demonstrated his bona fides as a musician.
Later on in the evening, a few guys began playing some more contemporary, non-Irish-trad stuff and, true to his billing, he was brilliant in that context.
Some instruments have a low threshold for beginners, you can learn to shape a few chords, or drum a simple beat, without too much trouble. Melody players who don't know the melody understand what is happening pretty quick. But the accompanist, where there is a fair amount of improvisation, doesn't always catch up to the fact that their contribution isn't enhancing the sound, it is cluttering it up.
Accompaniment is like spice in cooking--too much and it obscures the flavor of the food, and the same all the time, and it gets monotonous. And every dish doesn't need spice. If more accompanists would sit out a few tunes, mix up their accompaniment style from set to set, listen to what others were doing, the whole bunch of us would be better received.
Guitars and guitarists
Guitars and guitarists
In the interests of full disclosure, I play guitar and bouzouki and can and do play both melody and accompaniment, though I generally enjoy accompaniment more, as I find it more challenging for me personally.
Why is it that guitarists routinely are accursed for ruining a session?
Is it that guitarists are more likely than other players to just leap in unheeding and try to play along?
Is it that more guitarists are musically uneducated?
Is it that lots of other players annoy people at sessions too but guitarists are scapegoats and receive the lion's share of the blame?
Is it that they are traditional enough?
Or is it not so much guitarists as 'strummers' which isn't necessarily the same thing? Is it just that accompaniment is anathema? Then what about guitarists who play melody?
And what about bouzoukis, anyway.
These are intended as serious questions, not attempts to start a row.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Ginepro
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Rather than focus on the bad - I'll tell you what I like about some of the great session guitar players that I get to sit in with. Firstly and most importantly, they know the music. The can drive and lift the tunes, and pull back and create space. They play with the melody players, not over the top of them. Secondly, since backing is so subjective and varied in it's approach, they gladly take turns so as not to step on each other's playing or muddle things up for the melody players. It is an absolute delight to play music with these guys. They are consummate musicians and help our session levitate off the floor every Sunday.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Guitars and guitarists
I can think of one or two guys who came to our session once or twice, failed to listen to what anyone else was doing, strummed relentlessly, and then left, never to be mourned.
It's the sensitivity to what everyone else that is doing, or the lack of it, that can irritate.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Wow, I think we can close the thread, that just about sums it up! Hear hear Jusa Nutter & Pete. [thumps bar]
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Oh, one other thing; I've never heard a good session guitar player yell "hey, what key is that in?" repeatedly at the melody player as he/she is trying to kick off the tune.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Guitars and guitarists
>> These are intended as serious questions, not attempts to start a row.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
FWIW, I like guitars and bouzoukis in sessions. As with other instruments, a poorly played guitar can drag the life out of a session, whereas a well played one can inject energy.
At least part of the stigma comes from the fact that there are millions of people that play guitar that have no clue about the rhythm of Irish music. And these people often assume that because they know how to strum chords on a guitar, that they can automatically add something to the music. The majority of them learn pretty quickly that they aren't doing it well, and many of them go on to learn ways to do it nicely. But there are exceptions to that. And as usual, a few eejits can ruin the craic for the masses.
Another personal pet peeve of mine is bouzoukis that are played like guitars. Chords chords and more chords. The thing I like about a bouzouki in Irish music is the open tuning, with drone strings, interesting picking patterns, and counter melodies. People that play bouzouki like a loud guitar are generally missing the beauty of the instrument.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Nice try, SWFL, but you *know* this thread is going to explode, until it almost has a life of its own.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Oh, and to add to what JNE said, most of these guitar players that aren't immersed in the music have a difficult time grasping the idea of modal tunes. Even when someone is kind and tries to tell someone the key, it's only somewhat useful, because a lot of this music doesn't fit within the confines of western music theory.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Yeah Rev, I know. I'd feel remiss if I didn't at least try to put my finger in the dyke. Flood on!
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Just stop it now, Beavis, I know what you're thinking.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
"HEY, WHAT KEY IS THAT IN?!?!"
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Most guitarists who take so much as a gnat's interest in their playing are musically articulate - i.e. know their keys and chords and sequences and inversions and things. Given the company of an ITM guitarist who can explain the modes, "translating" them if need be into the terminology the newbie knows, the latter might pick them up readily - goodness knows, enough pop etc. guitarists have gone on and done so. But changing from standard tuning to DADGAD etc. might take a bit of getting used to. (My own brief and ignominious fumblings with guitar never got that far, so I personally wouldn't know.)
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Amen, Reverend. I'm new to the bouzouki (I've been playing it for about a year and a half) and what I have enjoyed about it (after 20+ years playing the guitar) are the differences between bouzouki and guitar.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Ginepro
Re: Guitars and guitarists
There certainly are plenty of rock and roll guitarists who are ready to leap in and play everything as if it were rock and roll, but there are a lot of great guitarists out there who understand ITM. They get it and can play it extremely well. It often seems, however, that all guitarists get tarred with the same brush. I was just wondering why.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Ginepro
Re: Guitars and guitarists
In America I think there is a sort of cultural mismatch between the "guitar player" ethos and ITM. This mismatch creates friction and annoyance when it crops up in an Irish session. Some aspects of the guitar player mythology that really clash with ITM:
The centrality of the guitar in popular American music: rock and roll, country, blues, and folk music. The guitar as symbol of authenticity, individualism, phallus, etc. This is versus the quite secondary and optional nature of the guitar or of any accompaniment in ITM.
The association of the guitar with "jamming" (bluegrass jams, blues jams, rock and roll jam bands) and the tendency to conflate "jam session" with "Irish session". Part of this is the idea that people take turns playing solos while the rest play accompaniment, as opposed to the unison melody playing of ITM.
The groove-oriented nature of popular music, in which a solid rhythmic accompaniment is thought to be a necessary foundation for melody to be played over.
The simple major or minor tonalities of popular American music (versus the Dorian, Mixolydian, and gapped scales so common in ITM).
The democratic, anti-elitist ideal that everyone should be allowed to participate/dabble in whatever sort of hobby they feel like, no matter how little they actual know about it, or how inept they are at it, or what effect they are having on the actual outcome. (That sounds harsh, but there it is.)
Let the record reflect that I too play guitar and am just as "guilty" as anyone of the cultural baggage mentioned above. That's step one, rigth -- admitting you have a problem?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Ginepro -- Yes, guitarists tend to get tarred with the same brush. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Well said crazy_fingerz, but my brain is still reeeling from the Jungian symbology of guitar as phallus. Between that and the finger in the dyke comment, this thread is brimming over with innuendo.
Gee, just like a real session...
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Phallus? Really Crazy_fingerz.
So, my guitar playing has a Freudian meaning - because I'm a woman. Actually, when I learned to play folk guitar, most of the kids in my class were other teenage girls. Hmmm. But, sometimes a guitar is just a guitar.
I would love to be able to play other instruments. I've only learned the one well enough to play with a group (or solo). And, I started playing folk style which is very simple and basic. I did learn to read notes when I was about 9 years old. But that never translated into playing anything I heard on the radio.
It took me some time to learn to play with the group. (Some might say that I still don't do it.) I know various progressions in various keys, but I can't just join in and hear the chord changes. Don't know why - I just don't hear it.
So, if I can't watch what another guitar player is doing, I don't strum to join in, I just strum on the downbeat to see if I can hear the chord changes. And, I do it very softly and usually end up not playing the song.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Guitars and guitarists
If I remember Desmond Morris correctly (The Naked Ape ?) he theorised that the classical and acoustic guitars are female, (obvious from the shape), but became masculine with the invention of the Fender Stratocaster with it's phallic headstock.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Guitars and guitarists
'Phallic Headstock'? Is that somewhere in Oxfordshire?
We always used to refer to it as the pregnant nun.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Where's the telecaster fit in with Desmond's theory's then, with it's smaller and more elegant headstock but more chunky square-cut body ? And what about the extra shaping on the strat, so it fits better to the body ?
Personally I'm a tele caster man ( you can tell that by how much time I spend in front of one. Boom, Boom ! ), although I'm building a 'beefed-up' strat for a young lady at the moment.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and guitarists
And back to the bouzouki question....
I am of the opinion that you can use ( strum ) a 'zouk anywhere you could strum a guitar, but NOT because it sounds the same, but because it sounds different - I'm a GDae with octaves player myself.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Dunno Pete, you'll have to ask Desmond (if he's still alive ?) I don't really subscribe to the theory myself...I think the symbolism is in the eye of the beholder. I have a gorgeous custom-made Strat and I do get pleasure from the lines and proportions, kinda graceful. I tend to think that if form follows function, without any unnecessary embellishment, the result is usually elegant. I have to admit, I am a guitar fetishist. I can easily spend a happy hour gazing at headstocks and bridges and inlay and tuning heads...
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Guitars and guitarists
It's all about listening and taking the time to honor and
respecting the music. Remember, it's very difficult for
many guitarists to grasp the concept of not overplaying.
Isn't that what guitarist do. (a bit of stereotype here)
Traditional Irish music has a propensity to not be intuitive all
the time. Because of that, it will frustrate many a guitarist
and have them step on the melody and overplay.
That's what threw me a curve when I was learning this style of music. Patience is certainly a virtue in good rhythmic accompaniment. Drive the music but do it with grace and finasse. John Doyle is a primo example of grace and
finasse.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Gilyslas
Re: Guitars and guitarists
One reason guitars and zouks and any other chordal or harmonic accompaniment rankles some Irish melody players is that, by their very nature, they dictate the key/mode of the tunes, instead of leaving that up to the meldoy players, or leaving it ambiguous.
Also, even discrete strumming can blur the nuances of good melody players and dictate the rhythmic feel.
Personally, I like both options--playing without backing, and playing with backing. In a session, they are two very different musical situations, and I can enjoy either one for what each is.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Accompanying Irish tunes is a special niche with relatively high standards. If you don’t understand that niche or don’t have the expected skill and knowledge, you’re likely to annoy some of the players. Plus, that special niche has several sub-styles, any one of which might be preferred at a session. If the tune players really want an Alec Finn approach and you come in all John Doyley on them, they might consider the session ruined, even though you played brilliantly.
Since the accompaniment can go a long way toward defining the overall sound, I think it’s fair for the tune players to be picky about it. I maen, a guitarist can practically arrange (as in "orchestrate") the music.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitars and guitarists
That's a dangerous weapon there, the ol' six string. It can speed you up, slow you down, hold you back, make the tune sound funny, force you to do all sorts of things you didn't want to do when you started playing the tune.
I think that's a key point here the last few posts are reinforcing, and I personally never really thought about it that deeply before. These instruments seem innocent but in reality they are very dangerous, and therein lies the problem, when there is a problem. There isn't always a problem. People do learn how to and do it well. I'm not one of them, so I don't.
Hey man, be careful with that thing! Yikes.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
"If we outlaw guitars, only outlaws will have guitars."
"Guitars don't kill sessions; people kill sessions."
"Always treat a guitar as if it's loaded. Never point it at someone unless you mean to use it."
"You can have my guitar when you pry it out of my cold, dead fingers."
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Guitars and guitarists
AP News, Ballyfeckit -- A live guitar went off inside a crowded downtown pub this evening, killing the craic and wounding several others. A police spokesperson said the preliminary investigation indicates that the guitarist also apparently perished in the attack....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Press Release, International Guitar Control Lobby -- Due to the recent situation in Ballyfeckit, we are calling for immediate installations of guitar detectors in all sessions. This unfortunate incident is certainly a reason for over-reaction and PR points making. Our people are currently appearing on cable news programs and taking politicians out to dinner in an all-out campaign. Thank you.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Press Release, National Guitar Association -- We condemn this over-reaction by the IGCL, and believe that any publican that can't see a blasted guitar case on the way in the door must be a complete eejit. Thank you.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Security cameras caught this man leaving the Ballyfeckit pub after the guitar explosion incident...
http://commentarytrack.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/desperado-070307.jpg
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Yes, but did you notice the young woman was wearing odd shoes.....?
PS Love that movie - the guitar cases with the built-in self-loading rocket-launchers.....
PPS National Bouzouki Association denies any connection with the National Bazooka Administration.....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Having been complimented on an early sensible comment, I am now getting frivolous.....
"Time for bed" said Zebedee....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Guitarists ruin sessions because they're so paranoid about ruining sessions they forget to enjoy themselves. Having said that, you wouldn't walk into a string quartet and try to play along
on the old Takamine unless you were extremely conversant with the genre. In a lot of ways i think the modern Irish music scene is just as serious as the classical scene. There's nothing wrong with that, people's expectations can be very high as a result. I think guitar players have got to respect the amount of time it takes for the other instrumentalists to develop there repertoire, and then take it just as seriously, but enjoy the art and the science of it while doing it. But the bottom line is in my view for guitars and bodhrans is, if your not really into it, dont try it.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Guitar players typically come to ITM in the U.S. AFTER having become proficient in some other style. Many poor Irish players are truly EXCELLENT players in other styles. But if you search for Royce Gracie and Akebono on YouTube, you can see what happens if you take the great Sumo wrestler out of the Sumo ring.
But the guitarists you get in an Irish trad session are often better than average. They are out seeking new musical experiences, rather than staying in their comfort zone. That is why they are better than average. BUT... when they come in from other styles, such as bluegrass, or blues, or jazz, or classical, they have very little in the way of Irish Traditional role models at first. All their role models, their standards of excellence, are in other styles.
This is kind of unique. Even a bluegrass fiddle player can usually quickly adjust to the reels, anyway, by matching his melody to the others, and observing a more experienced Irish player in context. After all, playing the melody, and assuming some observance of time, there's only so much damage he can do.
The guitarist, on the other hand, has no such point of reference. The only way he's going to learn quickly is if there's another experienced guitarist to learn from. If there's no other guitarist, the guitarist coming new to the session, even if he's excellent, will have no way of knowing whether or not he's screwing up. Paradoxically, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, he'll have no way of knowing what he doesn't know! And most melody players don't have the vocabulary to explain it to him, and don't want to take the time DURING the session, of course, because it takes up time, and because they don't want to put the guitar player on the spot.
But given a good local role model to emulate, I think most guitar players who self select to seek out an Irish session are quickly trainable.
Maybe it's time to make a few free youtube tutorials to point new guitar players to.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Guitars and guitarists
The problem in the United States is a little quoted addition to the Second Amendment to the Constitution which reads:
“ A well regulated Session, being necessary to the profitability of a pub or other such estabishment, the right of the people to keep and bear Guitars, shall not be infringed. "
In the case of C.F. Martin v. Pennsylvania, the state attempted to have all guitars leaving the factory contain tracer markings which could not be modified so that guitars could be traced back to their owners. Most recently, Clarence Thomas, wrote for the majority in a 5-4 decision (Bryer, Ginsberg, Stevens, and Souter dissenting) that the right to bear guitars was subject to strict scrutiny and the infringing upon the right granted by this clause of the constitution could only occur if there were a compelling interest to regulate them. In a related case, separate accommodations for guitar players were found to be unconstitutional as well. The court did not rule on the right to carry a concealed guitar since they found that to be a moot point.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Sorry about the above post. Couldn't help myself.
I don't like getting dissed at sessions. But, I also think it depends upon the type of session you attend. I go to sessions which are guitar friendly.
I think the musicians are harder on themselves. The people we play for really like what they hear. I'm not that good, but there are people here in our town who come up to me after a session or at other times and comment on how much they liked what they heard. It's a compliment for the entire group and I was part of that. Sometimes, I think as session wasn't that great and yet I hear nice comments.
I play for me -- I play for those who listen . I try to play with the group.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Guitars and guitarists
The day that anyone at all can walk around with a concealed guitar in the U.S. is the day I move to Canada. As if there were not enough problems in our cities already!
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Could it be that the guitarist runs into trouble because they have to reinvent the wheel every time they sit down to play? If you're playing fiddle or whistle or box, and someone changes the accent a little, you can adjust to them. If you're playing guitar, they've probably just changed the harmony and what you know about the tune just changed in some way, maybe in some important way. Then too, in a roomful of fiddlers, every one of them knows what the other fiddlers are supposed to do - they're supposed to play the tune. On the other hand, every man jack (and woman jane) of them probably has a different idea of how the guitar should best accompany the tune, either more chop on the beat or less mechanical, either stick to the explicit harmony or put in the stuff that's implicit, either fill it out or get out of the way...
Granted, lots of guitarists really aren't good enough for any of this to matter, they never learned where to start, but can we at least concede that even the reasonably skilled guitarist is in a pretty unwinnable situation?
(and then go back to telling them to please stop making such a terrible racket of such a lovely tune)
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Guitars and guitarists
I guess there's number of ways a guitar can wreck a session. The most difficult thing for most backers who do not play melody (or melody instruments) is to realize that they are backing, and should not be in the front of music. On one hand, they have much more freedom in terms of choosing what they play, on the other - they should keep their head low, listen intently to the melody and just add some spice to what others create. Some people's ego just doesn't take this very well.
Another thing is, and I know it from personal experience, that you have to try everything to understand that the most simple things are the most elegant, and the most discreet addition can be stronger that high volume and incredible techniques. In the process of acquiring this knowledge, people will get hurt (aesthetically) and you will get hurt (emotionally, if people resort only to diminishing your ego and once you learn that your Santana-like techniques do not win appreciation). Is the effect worth it? I don't know. It's just how it works.
It sometimes helps when you try to move to a melody instrument and suddenly realize what is the impact of good/bad backing on your playing skills (especially when you are still in the process of learning and everything disrupts your concentration). When I started to play the flute, my backing style changed a lot and became VERY soft.
Of course, there are those who don't learn. But these people can be found in any walk of life
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by EastPole
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Check out jwvansteenwyk being all humble.
Hey J, you make videos, man! I'd watch you play guitar all day, then still scratch my head and give up. J does those things where he plays alternate chords on other people's guitars across the room while he's still playing his own. J plays chords in other dimensions, beyond the normal space/time continuum.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
He also picks and strums with one hand, yet his other three appendages picking and strumming are only visible in infra-red.
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Yeah, but could he take on Chuck Norris?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Heh, Chuck Norris played guitar at our local session once. There were no survivors....
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Guitarists
Too bad I missed this one.
When I listen to trad music I hear the traditional instruments ~ pipes, fiddle, whistle. Mainly melody. Certainly the harp is a traditional instrument. Perhaps guitar is more closely related to harp than to fiddle or flute.
I do need to listen to more harp.
I beieve the good guitarists, in session, are the ones' who have really listened to flute & fiddle.
I have one guitar playing friend . . . on 2nd thought, best I not go there.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Guitars and guitarists
An experience I fondly remember involved the wedding of an Irish friend to his American bride. The Irishman (from Galway) was a fine multi-instrumentalist and many of his fellow sessioneers were at the wedding. The bride's brother was an accomplished and highly trained jazz guitarist who could comfortably sit in with jazz musicians of professional caliber and hold his own -- in fact, turn heads. He'd heard from his sister about the great Irish music that her new husband and his buddies played regularly and was anxious to give it a go. His parents, siblings, and others were talking up how proficient he was and how much he could add to any musical ensemble.
Cases, were opened and instruments were deployed. As the first tune started, he grabbed a few chords, got this WTF?? look on his face, and dropped out after about 10 seconds. Next tune, the same thing. Third tune, he put away his guitar and just enjoyed listening. To his credit, he quickly realized that all his instincts as a jazz guitarist were wrong in this context, that harmonic elaboration didn't suit the music, and that his contribution was only wrecking it. Perhaps because he was the bride's brother who'd traveled several hundred miles for the occasion, no one had given him an evil stare or otherwise indicated any disapproval. He determined, all by his lonesome, that his not participating served the greater good of the music.
A tip of the hat to this sensitive and sensible musician. Although I think he was really looking forward to showing off a bit at his sister's wedding, he had the good taste and musical judgment to refrain. He very quickly heard how the chords didn't fit the tonality of the melody. Certainly, in my view, he couldn't have more ably demonstrated his bona fides as a musician.
Later on in the evening, a few guys began playing some more contemporary, non-Irish-trad stuff and, true to his billing, he was brilliant in that context.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by devellis
Re: Guitars and guitarists
Some instruments have a low threshold for beginners, you can learn to shape a few chords, or drum a simple beat, without too much trouble. Melody players who don't know the melody understand what is happening pretty quick. But the accompanist, where there is a fair amount of improvisation, doesn't always catch up to the fact that their contribution isn't enhancing the sound, it is cluttering it up.
Accompaniment is like spice in cooking--too much and it obscures the flavor of the food, and the same all the time, and it gets monotonous. And every dish doesn't need spice. If more accompanists would sit out a few tunes, mix up their accompaniment style from set to set, listen to what others were doing, the whole bunch of us would be better received.
# Posted on June 27th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Guitars and guitarists
I LOVE a well played guitar in session !!!! Problem is, lots of people have guitars----few can play them.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by hauke