"You don't see people calling Mozart - Mozert or Beethoven - Bethooven do you?!!!"
Maybe not, but there are 20 occurrences of "Pachabel" instead of "Pachelbel" in the database.
It's the nature of time that makes most things impossible to do "once and for all." How would you propose making all present and future posters aware of the correct spelling whenever they were about to commit the error?
(I suppose Jeremy could implement a find and replace widget like the one that cleans up bad words like "Seejithorpe", but then it might introduce misspellings for those whose names really are spelled "Fahy". That spelling seems to be somewhat more common, actually. http://www.araltas.com/features/fahy/ ).
Ok now it's your turn to change your name Celtic Guitar cos that really is a stupid name.......as for Steve Shaw, I mean what a ridiculous sounding name, I mean really the idea of someone actually being called Steve Shaw is hilarious..........
is that right then? Fahey v Fahy? He never spelled it out to me. I always wondered. I'm unsure, I seriously thought it was without the 'e'. But then, is it that important? I would like to know for some anal reason, and if that's important then I guess it is.
I understand Maria Holohan did a Dissertation at the University of Limerick on Paddy Fahey's tunes. Does anyone know if - or can - this valuable resource be made available on the web? Is it owned by UL, or does Maria Holohan have the publishing rights?
It seems strange to me how inaccessable some PhD thesis documents are. In the science world pretty much anything of any value (and some things of little value) get published. What's the pint of doing a great piece of research and then have it sit in a library with such limited access.
I had a look at the UL website and there have been a few other great PhD thesis subjects in the past as well as this one.
As for the name spelling: my concern is that if Fah.... gets spelled without the -ey then it tends to get pronounced wrong by people who are not familiar with the name - sounds like 'fay' instead of 'fah - hee'.
Well Maria Holohan spells it Fahey on her Thesis, as do the Kane sisters and the Keville sisters on their CD's and between the five of them I'd have presumed they know him well enough to know that's how you spell his name!!
As for publishing the thesis I plan to get in touch with Ms. Holohan to see if I can convince her and Mr. Fahey to publish a book from it. It'll probably take a good while to get that sorted though if I can even get it to work. In the mean time I'm inputting tunes that are in the book into the database.
There's a whole lot more interesting stuff in the thesis which I can't really put up here, interviews with him and so on. There's even a tape that goes along with it where he plays all the tunes. I haven't got that though, it's in UL and they wouldn't let me copy it.
Maybe we should start a petition to ask UL to either publish it or let people copy it for personal use.
I think it's like "Hair". Or maybe a tiny glottal stop like "Hay-er". At least that's how I've heard it. BTW another spelling is of the now redundant moniker is
pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanokoniosis
We have Faheys in our family. It's been variously spelt "Fahey" ,Fahy" and "Fay"
They didn't worry too much about the spelling - at the time of emigration few of them could read anyway.
We also had Cahills who pronounced it Cah'l. There is a well-known footballer of that name who pronounces it "CAY-hill"
Among glottally-challenged and aspirationless Australians and SE Englanders the distinctions are mostly pointless anyway
"has anybody every read the thesis by Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin?"
Yes I have read this thesis on Tommy Potts, in fact I copied most of it, a lot of it is convoluted nonsense as is the case with a lot of theses but there is some really interesting stuff about how Potts came up with his variations. There are even some of Potts' own written versions of tunes in the thesis.
He wrote a lot of his variations down as he thought of them then came up with his own version of a tune through that. He also mentioned that he was influenced by some classical music and jazz in his approach. Worth a read if you can get it, you can get it from Queens University Belfast as an inter-library loan if you or someone you know is studying music in a college. There's a tape comes with it of Potts playing a lot of stuff.
Yes, you copied and pasted that correctly.
What is it? A protein? do you know? then I'd believe you had *command* of the language. BTW, it's not really English - it's technical English if that, but I think it would be much the same in Spanish or Hungarian or whatever. Just a series of amino acid residues linked by the suffix -yl, ie, a protein.
Rumour has it that the man himself doesn't care whether you spell his name 'Fahy' or 'Fahey'. Both spellings of the name exist in Ireland and beyond.
...and whilst we're on pedantry:
"I have new handle for you - it's even in Welsh gaelic:"
Hup - there's no such thing as Welsh Gaelic. The Celtic language family is divided into two sub-groups:
Gaelic, Goidelic or Q-Celtic - which includes Irish, Gallic (Scots Gaelic) and Manx
and
Brythonic or P-Celtic - which includes Welsh, Cornish and Breton (and the long-extinct Cumbric, very similar to Old Welsh)
Present day Irish speakers often object to their language being referred to as 'Gaelic' (preferring 'Irish'), even though it is one of the Gaelic languages. Welsh is not and has never been a Gaelic language and, while sharing some features with that branch of the Celtic family, it and Irish or Gallic are in no way mutually intelligible. Irish and Gallic *are* mutually intelligible to a considerable degree, as are Welsh and Breton.
Does anyone have the exact title and related information on the Paddy Fahey and Tommy Potts disertations (the kind of thing you would site in a bibliography)? I'd like to see if I could get a copy through interlibrary loan. Also, I seem to recall there is some organization, at least in the US, that is a sort of clearing house where you can purchase copies of disertations. Is there such an organization in Ireland?
Well said Granama. But what about Gaulish as a member of the p-Celtic branch?Apparently it died out in Roman Gaul (now called France) because of its similarity to Latin, so it probably got assimilated.
BTW, floccinaucinihilipilification, floccipaucinihilipilification, pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis, praetertranssubstantiationalistically, Llanfairpwllgwyngychgogerychwyrndrobwllllantisiliogogogoch or whatever you care to call yourself - if you have it on good authority that 'Fahey' is the correct spelling of Paddy's surname, then I defer to your superior knowledge.
Welsh and Latin are not closely related (except that they both originate from some Indo-European proto language) and I don't think that the language of the Gauls was close to Latin either. But the Romans were ruling in Britain and Wales for 400 years, so it would be surprising if there were not some Romano-British influences upon Welsh, an example might be Pontum, (Latin, bridge) and Pont or Bont (Welsh, bridge) which occurs in many place names, and Eglwys, (Welsh for church) which has Latin origin, same as ecclestiatical in modern English.
OK thanks but I remember reading somewhere that Gaulish and Latin were similar. Somewhere like here: http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/G/Gaulish_language.html
And yes, I know Latin is a Latin language (what else could it be?) and Gaulish is a Celtic language and both are Indo-European.
"But what about Gaulish as a member of the p-Celtic branch?"Apparently it died out in Roman Gaul (now called France) because of its similarity to Latin"
Keyman - I'm not so sure that Gaulish was a P-Celtic language. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the P/Q divide occurred after the Gaulish and Ancient British languages (neighbouring dialects of which are thought to have been mutually intelligible) were extinct, and that they probably shared more in common with the modern-day Q-Celtic branch.
"Apparently it died out in Roman Gaul (now called France) because of its similarity to Latin"
That seems improbable, comparing the Latin we know to any modern Celtic language - particularly when you take into account initial consonant mutation, which (within the indo-European family, at least) is a uniquely Celtic feature.
But the Latin that was spoken then was probably not much like what we're taught in schools in modern times - and perhaps Gaulish absorbed a lot of Latin vocabulary and started to adopt Latin grammatical constructions and lose its mutative features. It puts quite a different slant on the evolution of modern French.
KML, interesting page, and as you said, it does say Latin and Gallic were close, but I suppose 'closeness' is a relative term. From the small number of examples, one could say that Irish and Welsh are just as close as that, just as close as modern Italian and Spanish which also share words. But I suspect that an Iron Age Welshman and a Roman, say 100 CE, had completely distinct languages.
Gaulish and latin were only related through their Indo-European roots. They probably had as much in common as English and Irish today! Modern Breton is now believed to have been derived from Gaulish as well as from insular Celtic, i.e Cornish and welsh.
Gaulish probably survived much later than commonly thought. How could the Romans have killed the language in two centuries, without the help of modern media, extensive communication systems etc. Bear in mind that Irish, Gaelic, Breton, and Welsh are still spoken today (although the number of native speakers is shrinking by the day), despite the best efforts of the dominant powers (the Brits and the French) to snuff them out ?
Fahy or Fahey is almost exclusively a County Galway name, though of course it is also to be found in the areas bordering that county, such as north Tipperary and in Dublin. A sept of the Uí Maine, the centre of their patrimony, which they held as proprietors up to the time of the Cromwellian upheaval in the mid-seventeenth century and where most of them still dwell, is Loughrea in the south of the county: their territory was known as Pobal Mhuintir Uí Fhathaigh, i.e. the country inhabited by the Fahys. There is a place the modern name of which is Fahysvillage. The name is numerous in the area of Tipperary in the 17th - 19th centuries. The 1890 birth index finds the family in Galway, Tipperary and Mayo, with Fahy as the preferred spelling, with some 72 births. Fahey had 47 births in scattered locations at that time. O'Fahy was also cited as a principal name in Sligo in the census of 1659 and is also commonly found in Dublin, presumably as a result of migration.
Fahy is Ó Fathaigh in Irish. In some places this is anglicised Vahey instead of Fahey, and occasionally Fay which, however, is a distinct surname except in some rare instances in County Galway. The name Green has been used as a synonym for Fahy, a good example of the not uncommon absurd mistranslation of Irish names into English - the Irish word faithche, pronounced Fahy, means a green or a lawn. The obvious derivation from fathach, a giant, genitive fathaigh, is not acceptable, the name being, it is stated, derived from fothadh, a foundation.
Fay (de Fae) has been used as a synonym of Fahy. W. G. Fay, of the Abbey Theatre, stated that his grandfather was William O'Fahy of Tuam, Co. Galway.
The best-known bearer of the name was Francis Arthur Fahy (1854-1935), songwriter and literary man, who paved the way for the Irish Literary Revival through his life long involvement with the Gaelic League and the London Irish Literary Society. He is also noteworthy as the author of "The Ould Plaid Shawl" and other popular songs.
Another Francis Fahy was prominent in the Young Ireland movement of 1848.
Father Anthony Fahy (1805-1871) was a famous Irish priest in Argentina. The Fahy Institute in that country was founded to commemorate him.
A universally respected Ceann-Comhairle (Speaker) of Dáil Eireann (Irish Parliament) was yet another Francis Fahy (1880-1945), a veteran of the 1916-1921 War of Independence.
Both the Fahy and Fahie spellings are found among the ranks of the 69th Regt. of Corcoran's Irish Legion.
M. Shaughnessy writes to me as follows ...
"The O Fahys of Galway Pobal Mhuintir Ui Fhathaigh is coextensive with the parish of Kilthomas, which is found in the east of the Diocese of Kilmacduagh. They also held some land in the neighboring parish of Kilbeacanty, also found in the same diocese. Although they were situated in the territory of the Ui Fiachrach Aidhne they are not of the Ui Fiachrach Aidhne. These O Fahys are probably of the Cinel Fathaidh - a little known subgroup of the Ui Maine. The O Fahy castle was known as Dunally and was located in the parish of Kilthomas. Nothing remains of it today - however the townland in which it was located is still known as Doonally. Over half of the parish of Kilthomas is located in the Barony of Loughrea."
Heraldry
O'Fahy or O'Fay (A Sept of the race of O'Conor, King of Connaught) Arms: Azure a hand couped at the wrist fessways in chief proper holding a sword paleways Argent pommel and hilt Or point downwards pierced through a boar's head erased of the last. Crest: A naked arm erect couped below the elbow holding a broken spear all proper point downwards Or.
Fahie (Granted 1825 to Rear-Admiral Sir William Charles Fahie, K.C.B., son of John Davis Fahie, Esq. of the Island of Saint Christopher, President H.M. Council at Tortola, and grandson of Anthony Fahie, of Saint Christopher's, of an old Connaught family) Arms: Azure a dexter hand couped in chief thrusting a sword proper into a boar's head erased in base Or. Crest: A dexter arm couped below the elbow grasping a javelin the point downwards proper.
Fahy (Smith's Ordinary - Office of Ulster King of Arms) Arms: Azure a hand couped in chief sticking a sword proper into a boar's head erased in base Or. Crest: An arm couped below the elbow in pale proper holding a broken spear
Copied and pasted without attribution from the website http://www.araltas.com/features/fahy/ that I had provided a link to near the start of this discussion.
I'm not disputing that some people with that name spell their name Fahy, but it would seem that our friend the fiddler and tune composer spells his name "Fahey" as that is how his name is spelt on the Thesis by Maria Holohan, and CD's by the Kane sisters and the Keville Sisters.
Since all of these people know Fahey personally I would suggest that this is the correct way to spell his name.
Anyway, I may be being pedantic here and maybe he doesn't give a toss how people spell his name,
I’ve often wondered if Paddy’s surname was spelt Fahy or Fahey. Out of idle curiousity, I took a look through around 100 CDs and LPs, and came up with the following – I’m not going to list them, as it would take too long :
FAHY – 18 recordings, plus 1 book.
FAHEY – 7 recordings.
Make of that as you will, but I still think we won’t know until someone asks him.
It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Can we once and for all correct this ubiquitous spelling error?
The correct way to spell his surname is Fahey not Fahy.
I think given the high esteem he is held in it's time people spelt his name correctly.
You don't see people calling Mozart - Mozert or Beethoven - Bethooven do you?!!!
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Or, heaven forbid, Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcaniconiasis.....
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Actually, I thought the correct spelling was
PneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanOconiosis ,
not
PneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanIconiosis.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Obviously, Pneumo hasn't been to http://www.bethooven.com
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Hey Pneumo,
Change your name to something shorter. It screws up the board when you post and it is stupid!
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
"You don't see people calling Mozart - Mozert or Beethoven - Bethooven do you?!!!"
Maybe not, but there are 20 occurrences of "Pachabel" instead of "Pachelbel" in the database.
It's the nature of time that makes most things impossible to do "once and for all." How would you propose making all present and future posters aware of the correct spelling whenever they were about to commit the error?
(I suppose Jeremy could implement a find and replace widget like the one that cleans up bad words like "Seejithorpe", but then it might introduce misspellings for those whose names really are spelled "Fahy". That spelling seems to be somewhat more common, actually. http://www.araltas.com/features/fahy/ ).
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Yeah, shorten the name, pal. There are better ways around here of getting yourself noticed. Just tell us all you learn from dots, for example.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Ok now it's your turn to change your name Celtic Guitar cos that really is a stupid name.......as for Steve Shaw, I mean what a ridiculous sounding name, I mean really the idea of someone actually being called Steve Shaw is hilarious..........
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
and I might add I learnt everything I know from Dot Cotton
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
website: http://www.dotcotton.com
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I'll get my dad onto you, flocci-wallpaper.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
is that right then? Fahey v Fahy? He never spelled it out to me. I always wondered. I'm unsure, I seriously thought it was without the 'e'. But then, is it that important? I would like to know for some anal reason, and if that's important then I guess it is.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by pavlf
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
As a filim I never thought it worked - who wants to watch divorce proceedings, huh?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by john knoss
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Hey, "flocc ..." I have new handle for you - it's even in Welsh gaelic:
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I understand Maria Holohan did a Dissertation at the University of Limerick on Paddy Fahey's tunes. Does anyone know if - or can - this valuable resource be made available on the web? Is it owned by UL, or does Maria Holohan have the publishing rights?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
It seems strange to me how inaccessable some PhD thesis documents are. In the science world pretty much anything of any value (and some things of little value) get published. What's the pint of doing a great piece of research and then have it sit in a library with such limited access.
I had a look at the UL website and there have been a few other great PhD thesis subjects in the past as well as this one.
As for the name spelling: my concern is that if Fah.... gets spelled without the -ey then it tends to get pronounced wrong by people who are not familiar with the name - sounds like 'fay' instead of 'fah - hee'.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Donough
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Well Maria Holohan spells it Fahey on her Thesis, as do the Kane sisters and the Keville sisters on their CD's and between the five of them I'd have presumed they know him well enough to know that's how you spell his name!!
As for publishing the thesis I plan to get in touch with Ms. Holohan to see if I can convince her and Mr. Fahey to publish a book from it. It'll probably take a good while to get that sorted though if I can even get it to work. In the mean time I'm inputting tunes that are in the book into the database.
There's a whole lot more interesting stuff in the thesis which I can't really put up here, interviews with him and so on. There's even a tape that goes along with it where he plays all the tunes. I haven't got that though, it's in UL and they wouldn't let me copy it.
Maybe we should start a petition to ask UL to either publish it or let people copy it for personal use.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
But which "Paddy Fahey" is it?? Dow's recent offering I mean. I suppose I could figure it out, but what would be the point of that?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by gw
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2561
That's the one Dow's playing on Sound Lantern
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
i wouldnt say fah-hee, either. i would say fa (like in fat) hee.
i am sure someone could request an interlibrary loan on the thesis. do you guys do that in ireland?
does any one know of a similar thesis for tommy potts?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by daiv
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
ok, i just found it. has anybody every read the thesis by Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by daiv
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me how to pronounce "Hehir," as in Kathleen?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I think it's like "Hair". Or maybe a tiny glottal stop like "Hay-er". At least that's how I've heard it. BTW another spelling is of the now redundant moniker is
pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanokoniosis
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
We have Faheys in our family. It's been variously spelt "Fahey" ,Fahy" and "Fay"
They didn't worry too much about the spelling - at the time of emigration few of them could read anyway.
We also had Cahills who pronounced it Cah'l. There is a well-known footballer of that name who pronounces it "CAY-hill"
Among glottally-challenged and aspirationless Australians and SE Englanders the distinctions are mostly pointless anyway
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Bren
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
'Ere! Wotchit, you!
I might live dahn 'ere, but it don't I 'ave to talk like 'em.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Oh, nice new name, I see you like to impress people with your command of exotic english words.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I'm not trying to impress anyone, I just like those words.
If I really wanted to impress people with my command of exotic english words and had absolutely no regard for the mustard board I'd call myself
methionylglutaminylarginyltyrosylglutamylserylleucylphenylalanylalanylglutaminylleucyllysylglutamylarginyllysylglutamylglycylalanylphenylalanylvalylprolylphenylalanylvalylthreonylleucylglycylaspartylprolylglycylisoleucylglutamylglutaminylserylleucyllysylisoleucylaspartylthreonylleucylisoleucylglutamylalanylglycylalanylaspartylalanylleucylglutamylleucylglycylisoleucylprolylphenylalanylserylaspartylprolylleucylalanylaspartylglycylprolylthreonylisoleucylglutaminylaspfraginylalanylthreonylleucylarginylalanylphenylalanylalanylalanylglycylvalylthreonylprolylalanylglutaminylcysteinylphenylalanylglutamylmethionylleucylalanylleucylisoleucylarginylglutaminyllysylhistidylprolylthreonylisoleucylprolylisoleucylglycylleucylleucylmethionyltyrosylalanylasparaginylleucylvalylphenylalanylasparaginyllysylglycylisoleucylaspartylglutamylphenylalanyltyrosylalanylglutaminylcysteinylglutamyllysylvalylglycylvalylaspartylserylvalylleucylvalylalanylaspartylvalylprolylvalylglutaminylglutamylserylalanylprolylphenylalanylarginylglutaminylalanylalanylleucylarginylhistidylasparaginylvalylalanylprolylisoleucylphenylalanylisoleucylcysteinylprolylprolylaspartylalanylaspartylaspartylaspartylleucylleucylarginylglutaminylisoleucylalanylseryltyrosylglycylarginylglycyltyrosylthreonyltyrosylleucylleucylserylarginylalanylglycylvalylthreonylglycylalanylglutamylasparaginylarginylalanylalanylleucylprolylleucylasparaginylhistidylleucylvalylalanyllysylleucyllysylglutamyltyrosylasparaginylalanylalanylprolylprolylleucylglutaminylglycylphenylalanylglycylisoleucylserylalanylprolylaspartylglutaminylvalyllysylalanylalanylisoleucylaspartylalanylglycylalanylalanylglycylalanylisoleucylserylglycylserylalanylisoleucylvalyllysylisoleucylisoleucylglutamylglutaminylhistidylasparaginylisoleucylglutamylprolylglutamyllysylmethionylleucylalanylalanylleucyllysylvalylphenylalanylvalylglutaminylprolylmethionyllysylalanylalanylthreonylarginylserine
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Did I spell that right Key Maniac Lad?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
"has anybody every read the thesis by Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin?"
Yes I have read this thesis on Tommy Potts, in fact I copied most of it, a lot of it is convoluted nonsense as is the case with a lot of theses but there is some really interesting stuff about how Potts came up with his variations. There are even some of Potts' own written versions of tunes in the thesis.
He wrote a lot of his variations down as he thought of them then came up with his own version of a tune through that. He also mentioned that he was influenced by some classical music and jazz in his approach. Worth a read if you can get it, you can get it from Queens University Belfast as an inter-library loan if you or someone you know is studying music in a college. There's a tape comes with it of Potts playing a lot of stuff.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Yes, you copied and pasted that correctly.
What is it? A protein? do you know? then I'd believe you had *command* of the language. BTW, it's not really English - it's technical English if that, but I think it would be much the same in Spanish or Hungarian or whatever. Just a series of amino acid residues linked by the suffix -yl, ie, a protein.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Well I suppose his name is really Pádraig Ó Fathaigh and any English version of that is a phonetic approximation...
...awaits cultural backlash
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by cferrie
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Rumour has it that the man himself doesn't care whether you spell his name 'Fahy' or 'Fahey'. Both spellings of the name exist in Ireland and beyond.
...and whilst we're on pedantry:
"I have new handle for you - it's even in Welsh gaelic:"
Hup - there's no such thing as Welsh Gaelic. The Celtic language family is divided into two sub-groups:
Gaelic, Goidelic or Q-Celtic - which includes Irish, Gallic (Scots Gaelic) and Manx
and
Brythonic or P-Celtic - which includes Welsh, Cornish and Breton (and the long-extinct Cumbric, very similar to Old Welsh)
Present day Irish speakers often object to their language being referred to as 'Gaelic' (preferring 'Irish'), even though it is one of the Gaelic languages. Welsh is not and has never been a Gaelic language and, while sharing some features with that branch of the Celtic family, it and Irish or Gallic are in no way mutually intelligible. Irish and Gallic *are* mutually intelligible to a considerable degree, as are Welsh and Breton.
It's a bit like calling German 'Norse'.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by granama
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Does anyone have the exact title and related information on the Paddy Fahey and Tommy Potts disertations (the kind of thing you would site in a bibliography)? I'd like to see if I could get a copy through interlibrary loan. Also, I seem to recall there is some organization, at least in the US, that is a sort of clearing house where you can purchase copies of disertations. Is there such an organization in Ireland?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Jiml
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Well said Granama. But what about Gaulish as a member of the p-Celtic branch?Apparently it died out in Roman Gaul (now called France) because of its similarity to Latin, so it probably got assimilated.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
...which leads me to thinking, are Welsh and Latin in any way similar?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
BTW, floccinaucinihilipilification, floccipaucinihilipilification, pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis, praetertranssubstantiationalistically, Llanfairpwllgwyngychgogerychwyrndrobwllllantisiliogogogoch or whatever you care to call yourself - if you have it on good authority that 'Fahey' is the correct spelling of Paddy's surname, then I defer to your superior knowledge.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by granama
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Welsh and Latin are not closely related (except that they both originate from some Indo-European proto language) and I don't think that the language of the Gauls was close to Latin either. But the Romans were ruling in Britain and Wales for 400 years, so it would be surprising if there were not some Romano-British influences upon Welsh, an example might be Pontum, (Latin, bridge) and Pont or Bont (Welsh, bridge) which occurs in many place names, and Eglwys, (Welsh for church) which has Latin origin, same as ecclestiatical in modern English.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
OK thanks but I remember reading somewhere that Gaulish and Latin were similar. Somewhere like here:
http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/G/Gaulish_language.html
And yes, I know Latin is a Latin language (what else could it be?) and Gaulish is a Celtic language and both are Indo-European.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
"But what about Gaulish as a member of the p-Celtic branch?"Apparently it died out in Roman Gaul (now called France) because of its similarity to Latin"
Keyman - I'm not so sure that Gaulish was a P-Celtic language. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the P/Q divide occurred after the Gaulish and Ancient British languages (neighbouring dialects of which are thought to have been mutually intelligible) were extinct, and that they probably shared more in common with the modern-day Q-Celtic branch.
"Apparently it died out in Roman Gaul (now called France) because of its similarity to Latin"
That seems improbable, comparing the Latin we know to any modern Celtic language - particularly when you take into account initial consonant mutation, which (within the indo-European family, at least) is a uniquely Celtic feature.
But the Latin that was spoken then was probably not much like what we're taught in schools in modern times - and perhaps Gaulish absorbed a lot of Latin vocabulary and started to adopt Latin grammatical constructions and lose its mutative features. It puts quite a different slant on the evolution of modern French.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by granama
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
KML, interesting page, and as you said, it does say Latin and Gallic were close, but I suppose 'closeness' is a relative term. From the small number of examples, one could say that Irish and Welsh are just as close as that, just as close as modern Italian and Spanish which also share words. But I suspect that an Iron Age Welshman and a Roman, say 100 CE, had completely distinct languages.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I think Italian and Spanish are much closer than Welsh and Irish. We Spaniards understand Italian, more or less.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Gaulish and latin were only related through their Indo-European roots. They probably had as much in common as English and Irish today! Modern Breton is now believed to have been derived from Gaulish as well as from insular Celtic, i.e Cornish and welsh.
Gaulish probably survived much later than commonly thought. How could the Romans have killed the language in two centuries, without the help of modern media, extensive communication systems etc. Bear in mind that Irish, Gaelic, Breton, and Welsh are still spoken today (although the number of native speakers is shrinking by the day), despite the best efforts of the dominant powers (the Brits and the French) to snuff them out ?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by pennhorse
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I meant Old breton, obviously, not modern Breton.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by pennhorse
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
It's Goulish and Luton that are related.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
If you haven't already, read 'The Power of Babel' by John McWhorter for some interesting ideas on the evolution of languages.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by granama
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Fahy or Fahey is almost exclusively a County Galway name, though of course it is also to be found in the areas bordering that county, such as north Tipperary and in Dublin. A sept of the Uí Maine, the centre of their patrimony, which they held as proprietors up to the time of the Cromwellian upheaval in the mid-seventeenth century and where most of them still dwell, is Loughrea in the south of the county: their territory was known as Pobal Mhuintir Uí Fhathaigh, i.e. the country inhabited by the Fahys. There is a place the modern name of which is Fahysvillage. The name is numerous in the area of Tipperary in the 17th - 19th centuries. The 1890 birth index finds the family in Galway, Tipperary and Mayo, with Fahy as the preferred spelling, with some 72 births. Fahey had 47 births in scattered locations at that time. O'Fahy was also cited as a principal name in Sligo in the census of 1659 and is also commonly found in Dublin, presumably as a result of migration.
Fahy is Ó Fathaigh in Irish. In some places this is anglicised Vahey instead of Fahey, and occasionally Fay which, however, is a distinct surname except in some rare instances in County Galway. The name Green has been used as a synonym for Fahy, a good example of the not uncommon absurd mistranslation of Irish names into English - the Irish word faithche, pronounced Fahy, means a green or a lawn. The obvious derivation from fathach, a giant, genitive fathaigh, is not acceptable, the name being, it is stated, derived from fothadh, a foundation.
Fay (de Fae) has been used as a synonym of Fahy. W. G. Fay, of the Abbey Theatre, stated that his grandfather was William O'Fahy of Tuam, Co. Galway.
The best-known bearer of the name was Francis Arthur Fahy (1854-1935), songwriter and literary man, who paved the way for the Irish Literary Revival through his life long involvement with the Gaelic League and the London Irish Literary Society. He is also noteworthy as the author of "The Ould Plaid Shawl" and other popular songs.
Another Francis Fahy was prominent in the Young Ireland movement of 1848.
Father Anthony Fahy (1805-1871) was a famous Irish priest in Argentina. The Fahy Institute in that country was founded to commemorate him.
A universally respected Ceann-Comhairle (Speaker) of Dáil Eireann (Irish Parliament) was yet another Francis Fahy (1880-1945), a veteran of the 1916-1921 War of Independence.
Both the Fahy and Fahie spellings are found among the ranks of the 69th Regt. of Corcoran's Irish Legion.
M. Shaughnessy writes to me as follows ...
"The O Fahys of Galway Pobal Mhuintir Ui Fhathaigh is coextensive with the parish of Kilthomas, which is found in the east of the Diocese of Kilmacduagh. They also held some land in the neighboring parish of Kilbeacanty, also found in the same diocese. Although they were situated in the territory of the Ui Fiachrach Aidhne they are not of the Ui Fiachrach Aidhne. These O Fahys are probably of the Cinel Fathaidh - a little known subgroup of the Ui Maine. The O Fahy castle was known as Dunally and was located in the parish of Kilthomas. Nothing remains of it today - however the townland in which it was located is still known as Doonally. Over half of the parish of Kilthomas is located in the Barony of Loughrea."
Heraldry
O'Fahy or O'Fay (A Sept of the race of O'Conor, King of Connaught) Arms: Azure a hand couped at the wrist fessways in chief proper holding a sword paleways Argent pommel and hilt Or point downwards pierced through a boar's head erased of the last. Crest: A naked arm erect couped below the elbow holding a broken spear all proper point downwards Or.
Fahie (Granted 1825 to Rear-Admiral Sir William Charles Fahie, K.C.B., son of John Davis Fahie, Esq. of the Island of Saint Christopher, President H.M. Council at Tortola, and grandson of Anthony Fahie, of Saint Christopher's, of an old Connaught family) Arms: Azure a dexter hand couped in chief thrusting a sword proper into a boar's head erased in base Or. Crest: A dexter arm couped below the elbow grasping a javelin the point downwards proper.
Fahy (Smith's Ordinary - Office of Ulster King of Arms) Arms: Azure a hand couped in chief sticking a sword proper into a boar's head erased in base Or. Crest: An arm couped below the elbow in pale proper holding a broken spear
(Delete 'Broken Spear' add 'Fiddle')
No comment?
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Copied and pasted without attribution from the website http://www.araltas.com/features/fahy/ that I had provided a link to near the start of this discussion.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I'm not disputing that some people with that name spell their name Fahy, but it would seem that our friend the fiddler and tune composer spells his name "Fahey" as that is how his name is spelt on the Thesis by Maria Holohan, and CD's by the Kane sisters and the Keville Sisters.
Since all of these people know Fahey personally I would suggest that this is the correct way to spell his name.
Anyway, I may be being pedantic here and maybe he doesn't give a toss how people spell his name,
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Hold it --- "may be being pedantic"?
That surely cannot be right, can it?
Might it be more properly:
"maybe am being pedanic"?
"may be pedantic"
"perhaps am being pedantic"
Which is correct?
Not to be picky here, I just ilke to have all my ducks in a row...
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Rook
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Maybe I'm being pedantic.
Anyway you've all got it wrong, it's spelled "Phaanhee"
(silent n).
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
Would that be silent "p", "a" and "e", too?
Or is it Puh-Fah-Ah-He-Ee?
curiously,
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Rook
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
sorry-- Puh-Hah-Ah-He-Ee?
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Rook
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
As John Lennon sang:
You're all fockin pedants as far as I can see
# Posted on June 26th 2008 by Bren
Re: It's Paddy Fahey not Paddy Fahy
I’ve often wondered if Paddy’s surname was spelt Fahy or Fahey. Out of idle curiousity, I took a look through around 100 CDs and LPs, and came up with the following – I’m not going to list them, as it would take too long :
FAHY – 18 recordings, plus 1 book.
FAHEY – 7 recordings.
Make of that as you will, but I still think we won’t know until someone asks him.
# Posted on July 1st 2008 by Kenny