When playing rolls, do you speed up the bow and/or apply more pressure? Or do you play the roll with no particular emphasis on the roll in your bowing (making any emphasis the job of the left hand only)? Do you sometimes do it one way and sometimes the other?
Several players who I think know what they are talking about say that you DO want to use the bow to put a bit of oomph into rolls. But Kevin Burke apparently comes down on the other side of the issue, against bowed oomph in rolls. But...does he even practice what he preaches? I am suspicious.
Any pearls of wisdom, no matter how small, are much appreciated.
if I may ask a question?would there be a difference in a fiddlers approach to a short roll from how they may approach a long roll.in other words a roll on a crotchet or a dotted crotchet.
I tend to put a bit of bite in it if it happens to fall on a spot where a strong accent is needed. I use bow pressure more as a way of getting the pattern of accents right rather than as a part of the ornaments...it's two different things, really.
In a lesson eons ago, Burke told me not to change bow speed or pressure when playing rolls--that all the pulse and pop should come from the left hand.
I don't know if that's what he teaches still. But it rolls can certainly work that way--all the pulse and pop can come from the timing and crispness of the wind-up, flick, and follow through of your left fingers.
I notice that I sometimes lean a little on the bow for extra emphasis during a roll, but that's a personal stylistic choice. And more often than not, it just muddies up the roll. Increasing bow speed is a similar option, but bear in mind that you're already taking a comparatively long single bow stroke for the roll--you'll have to make up for that by going in the other direction. Drawing faster on that roll stroke will only add to the bow length you need to make up. And the increase in volume from the faster bow speed may sound jumpy.
Burke also likes to point out that people tend to lean harder or draw faster on the bow for double stops because we hear them as louder (when someone else plays them), and so subconsciously think we should bow them louder. In fact, the two strings vibrating together will be louder even with the same bow weight and speed as any single note. So ne extra lean or speed is needed. Same thing for the moving pedal notes in a phrase like |E2 BE dEBE| - the B - d - B bits will jump out of the phrase even without extra weight or speed simply because we hear them against the near-drone of the low E.
Burke's teachnings on this made sense to me at the time and still do. I teach rolls as a left-hand articulation, keeping the bow steady throughout.
My hunch is that you can find examples of brilliant players who do otherwise.
Two separate items. Bow crunches ("Bro, I'm so stoked! I just went to the gym and did like 100 bow crunches! I'm ripped!") are more for emphasis, all the rolling seems to be in the fingering hand.
somewhere I have a pretty funny recording of Kevin Burke explaining the importance of crispy rolls - if I can find it I'll send it to you. I left with the impression that after you get them crispy, you can bow them however you like...
Oh heavens no, sorry. Granny just liked to cook and treasured fresh, crispy rolls right out of the oven. She was never quite 'all there' and we couldn't keep her away from my fiddle. [shrug]
Will says "the two strings vibrating together will be louder even with the same bow weight and speed as any single note"
Very true. Beginners naturally try to increase the bow weight and speed in double stops, unless they're told otherwise, with bad effects on the tone. The same happens in classical music. The conductor of my chamber orchestra recently told the first violins to slightly reduce the overall pressure in a bar of double stops so as to retain the same dynamic as in the adjacent single string passages. My violin teacher has given me exactly the same advice.
But in order to do it "bad" on purpose you've got to be able to control the bow pressure in double stops to produce whatever level of loudness you want in the music.
I'll admit I'm guilty of sometimes leaning just a speck harder on double stops. But it's not an attempt to make it louder. It's just a lazy way of keeping the bow in good contact with both strings.
They have different purposes all together. A big crunchy double stop has a totally different effect than a gentle, sweeping double stop. I use them at different times for different things. No sense limiting your tool box, both of them have porpoises, and dolphins too.
Now, who's up for one of Granny's fresh rolls? Mmm...
Bowing Fiddle Rolls
Bowing Fiddle Rolls
To all the fiddlers here...
When playing rolls, do you speed up the bow and/or apply more pressure? Or do you play the roll with no particular emphasis on the roll in your bowing (making any emphasis the job of the left hand only)? Do you sometimes do it one way and sometimes the other?
Several players who I think know what they are talking about say that you DO want to use the bow to put a bit of oomph into rolls. But Kevin Burke apparently comes down on the other side of the issue, against bowed oomph in rolls. But...does he even practice what he preaches? I am suspicious.
Any pearls of wisdom, no matter how small, are much appreciated.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
if I may ask a question?would there be a difference in a fiddlers approach to a short roll from how they may approach a long roll.in other words a roll on a crotchet or a dotted crotchet.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
I tend to put a bit of bite in it if it happens to fall on a spot where a strong accent is needed. I use bow pressure more as a way of getting the pattern of accents right rather than as a part of the ornaments...it's two different things, really.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
In a lesson eons ago, Burke told me not to change bow speed or pressure when playing rolls--that all the pulse and pop should come from the left hand.
I don't know if that's what he teaches still. But it rolls can certainly work that way--all the pulse and pop can come from the timing and crispness of the wind-up, flick, and follow through of your left fingers.
I notice that I sometimes lean a little on the bow for extra emphasis during a roll, but that's a personal stylistic choice. And more often than not, it just muddies up the roll. Increasing bow speed is a similar option, but bear in mind that you're already taking a comparatively long single bow stroke for the roll--you'll have to make up for that by going in the other direction. Drawing faster on that roll stroke will only add to the bow length you need to make up. And the increase in volume from the faster bow speed may sound jumpy.
Burke also likes to point out that people tend to lean harder or draw faster on the bow for double stops because we hear them as louder (when someone else plays them), and so subconsciously think we should bow them louder. In fact, the two strings vibrating together will be louder even with the same bow weight and speed as any single note. So ne extra lean or speed is needed. Same thing for the moving pedal notes in a phrase like |E2 BE dEBE| - the B - d - B bits will jump out of the phrase even without extra weight or speed simply because we hear them against the near-drone of the low E.
Burke's teachnings on this made sense to me at the time and still do. I teach rolls as a left-hand articulation, keeping the bow steady throughout.
My hunch is that you can find examples of brilliant players who do otherwise.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
Dick, I don't do short rolls any differently, except the timing of the notes (no long intro note, as in long rolls).
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
(But that's just me.)
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
What Will and Screetch said.
Two separate items. Bow crunches ("Bro, I'm so stoked! I just went to the gym and did like 100 bow crunches! I'm ripped!") are more for emphasis, all the rolling seems to be in the fingering hand.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
somewhere I have a pretty funny recording of Kevin Burke explaining the importance of crispy rolls - if I can find it I'll send it to you. I left with the impression that after you get them crispy, you can bow them however you like...
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by airport
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
That's odd airport, my Granny always said the same thing while cooking dinner. It was hard to get the bow away from her at the table though.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
your Granny sounds like a wise woman - there's probably a nice hand drawing of her in The Southern Fiddler (I hear that's hard to find these days)
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by airport
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
Oh heavens no, sorry. Granny just liked to cook and treasured fresh, crispy rolls right out of the oven. She was never quite 'all there' and we couldn't keep her away from my fiddle. [shrug]
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
oops sorry - I thought we were talking about Granny O'Boobigans
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by airport
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
Will says "the two strings vibrating together will be louder even with the same bow weight and speed as any single note"
Very true. Beginners naturally try to increase the bow weight and speed in double stops, unless they're told otherwise, with bad effects on the tone. The same happens in classical music. The conductor of my chamber orchestra recently told the first violins to slightly reduce the overall pressure in a bar of double stops so as to retain the same dynamic as in the adjacent single string passages. My violin teacher has given me exactly the same advice.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
Yep, good sounding doublestops are all about lightening up on the bow and letting the strings do the work.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
Of course, sometimes you want them to sound 'bad' on purpose,
for effect
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
But in order to do it "bad" on purpose you've got to be able to control the bow pressure in double stops to produce whatever level of loudness you want in the music.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
indeed -- that's why I have keep practicing
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
_to_ keep
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
I'll admit I'm guilty of sometimes leaning just a speck harder on double stops. But it's not an attempt to make it louder. It's just a lazy way of keeping the bow in good contact with both strings.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Bowing Fiddle Rolls
They have different purposes all together. A big crunchy double stop has a totally different effect than a gentle, sweeping double stop. I use them at different times for different things. No sense limiting your tool box, both of them have porpoises, and dolphins too.
Now, who's up for one of Granny's fresh rolls? Mmm...
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler