I am wondering if there is any kind of format used in the arrangement of medleys ; certain key changes, meter changes, (title similarities joke) ... or whatever else. I am needing to beef up my set of tunes for performance, and well, I know only about instinct and random choice be the main factors. I think that the art of grouping songs together is almost more important than the single tunes. Am I making too big of a deal about it?
I just struggle with a sense that I'm going about it all wrong, (kind of am joking about the SleepyDrowsy Maggie ) . What I'm asking, is there a tradition behind grouping?
...and the Teetotaler's with the Drunken Landlady...
In all seriousness, though, although I have a few principles that tend to serve me well in cobbling tunes together, I'm not sure that they're any more reliable than instinct and random choice. Transititons between tunes, like tunes themselves, need to have some element of surprise, which is antithetical to overregimenting the process of putting them together.
I think it's as varied as the player. I'm partial to making a mode voyage with sets of tunes, changing modes within the set, from tune to tune. Some group them by mode. Some do flashy things like airs into hornpipes, some keep tunes in sets by type only.
So, no, no help here. If you want a rule I'm afraid we have none for you.
TD & M, as well as SWFL > thanks, you're teaching me. Let me ask then, is there anything I want to stay away from, avoid as far as no-no's in tradition? I dig the bit about surprise, I get that instinctinvely, and though I don't have a very well theory trained brain, I think I have basic instincts, and that's all i guess I can ever expect from the audience. Dropping 5ths seems to be common, but is it overdone? What other typical key and meter changes are there? Anything you tell me will help !
No, not if it's done well. As others stated, there aren't rules, but there is a tradition. Usually, in Irish Music, like tunes are played with like. Reels with reels, jigs with jigs polkas with polkas etc. Only occasionally do people mix rhythms & it's usually at a performance. Remember this music is first & foremost for the dancers & a room full of dancers wouldn't be expecting a reel in the middle of a set of jigs. That's why traditionally like is kept with like. BTW Cape Breton players often string together a set starting with an air, moving on to a slow strathspey to a jug to a fast strathspey then a fast paced french reel or the like to build up energy & momentum. But unless you from CB if you did that at an Irish session - yo'd probably get a lot of veiled comments.
I base my sets on what sounds good together, never mind anything else. If the end part of a tune has a D7 figure, then G or A dor might be nice choices. If a tune has a lot of arppegios stick with it & put another 'jumpy' tune with it. Try to keep away from long sets all in the same key/mode - it can be a yawn for the backers & the punters. Two or so is fine but more than that, not so much.
Would it be too silly to ask, for performance sake, what most of you do as far as how many repetitions for one tune in a grouping ? Also , what is the 'usual' number of tunes in a 'typical' medley, it helps me to know.
Again, I am trying to establish for myself some kind of a format to organize all the random tunes I know, and how to better seek out new ones for medleys. Thanks again.
I myself like going from minor to the related major. And I like adding sharps along the way, cycling up the circle of fifths. Like Brad says, the shape of the tune helps determine what fits. Two tunes my wife and I just started putting together are Farewell to Connaught and Woman of the House, one in D mixolidian (but with hints of D major), and the next in G, but with a lot of D major in the B part. Other than both having one sharp in the key signature, I wouldn't have thought they would work, but they do.
By the way, a little terminology clarification--songs have words, tunes do not. When you string songs together you have a medley, when you string tunes together you have a set.
And one last thing, for sessions, it is best to go from more obscure tunes to more well known, that way your set picks up more players as it rolls along, which makes everything more fun as it builds to a grand crescendo!
A few more thoughts. Like Brad said, different types of tunes are not often grouped, as he said, that comes from the dance tradition. When they are grouped, two part tunes are generally repeated three times before you move to the next, sometimes more. Multipart tunes are often repeated less than the two parters. Tunes that don't repeat, like single reels, are usually repeated more. And around here anyhow, slower tunes, like waltzes and hornpipes, are generally only repeated twice.
The number of tunes in a set is limited only by the endurance of the players. Two or three tunes can often be enough, but in a session, you could get five or six in a row, with each new tune being inspired by the previous.
Al , thanks *so* much! Wow, I will try the examples you give, with tunes as I learn them. ALso, I didn't know that 'sets' were groups of tunes, I thought they were groups of .... well... sets. I have to get the lingo straight, and pardon me for my total blunders. I don't plan on playing in sessions, but just performing for open mics and such around the local eateries, or sitting in with my pals' gigs. Still, I want to do it *right* !
That's a great point Al, I do that all the time. It works at home sessions and when I visit other sessions. At home, you can introduce new tunes to your mates while you work you way towards a finishing tune that everyone knows. On the road, you can crank a rare one or two out when asked to start a set, and then work toward some real common ones that you can safely (hopefully!) assume everyone there will know.
Usually the mixing sets of different types of tunes (jig into a reel) is a flashy performance thing, not so traditional. Remember that it's dance music, so typically dancers will want to do once sort of dance to a set of tunes, a slide set, reels, whatever. Unless it's a step dancer doing a solo set dance where there's a fast and a slow part, typically dancers don't like dancing a reel step, then a jig step, and then a polka step, all in the same set of tunes. They may actually throw something heavy and sharp at you. [1/2 joke]
A lovely set we do locally, that is also the first we usually teach to beginners, is Morrison's Jig with The Kesh. That changing of modes is a way to get a cheap thrill, but it pleases the players and the listeners, not that we care too much about them in a session situation, of course. Heaven forbid. [ahem]
Thanks SWFL., that makes so much sense when I think about dancers. I suppose around here I won't have any dancers throwing anything sharp, nor blunt at me, because I doubt there are that many if any, where I am from.
Perhaps this thread might be even more helpful if players listed their favorite sets, with a sort of personal explaination as to why they clumped them together?
Ah, now that would be a good thread, jj. Perhaps a new one to catch everyone's attention, like "What's Your Favorite Set of Tunes?" Tell you what, I'll go ahead and start it up for us and we'll see what we get.
In the meantime, check this out, plenty of reading material about sets to confuse yourself with.
I think the sequence in Scottish music of march (in whichever time) followed by strathspey, then reel, is a very good one. Not admittedly directly applicable to ITM in settings where marches and strathspeys don't feature.
SWFL Fiddler - As far as I know, the performance of a march, strathspey and reel in straight unbroken succession is done purely for listening, in recitals and competitions, usually on the Highland Bagpipes or the fiddle.
Scottish marches can come (at least) in 6/8, dotted 2/4 and undotted 2/4. The strathspey rhythm seems to buffer the various march rhythms very effectively and to incubate, almost, the reel that succeeds it.
I don't know for definite how many times each tune is played. A four-part march would be played once; a strathspey and a reel I guess would be played twice each, but I might be wrong.
I don't know if such a set of tunes, played straight through, is ever danced to. But surely in the history of TM - related amusement *someone*must have worked out how to!
That's right Nicholas, it's usually a 2/4 doted march followed by a Stathspey and reel, usually all with 4 - 6 parts and played once through each. Occasionally lighter 2 part strathspeys and reels might be played - 2 or 3 of each played twice through.
Individually the 2/4 would be played for a Barndance, The strathspeys a schottiche or a fling and the reel is self explanatory.
The art of medleys probably found its most interesting and possibly first stream of popularity in the 19th century with the common playing of Lancer and Quadrille sets.
The closest we come to experiencing them now, as pointed out to me by Jackie Small, is in John Hustons film adaptation of the James Joyce work "The Dead", from the collection of 15 short stories entitled "Dubliners".
A set of Quadrilles is a medly of 5 or 6 tunes, which alternate between compound and simple meters and have alot of other interesting little features. Despite being published in huge numbers, they're relatively hard to find now. I think that The Frank Roach Collection contains a few, and if you can wait a year or so, I hope to publish my 1896 collection from East Donegal.
If you're not too far away, check out the Archive of Irish Music in Dublin and you'll discover a whole new realm to the art of medleys.
I think that the Canadians dance to the marches, strathspeys and the reels, different dances for each as things move along. But I have never actually been to one of their dances, so I am not sure of that. If someone would chime in and answer that, I would appreciate it. Or next time I see my neighbor, who grew up in the North, I will ask him.
It's all about using your ear, forget about theoretical nonsense regarding relative minors and so on. Of course they can work, but that kind of change is a tad predictable, particularly if it's painstakingly worked out beforehand.
The real art of the medley in Irish music is the ability to just start a tune without considering what one to come next and then when you feel like changing do so spontaneaously into a tune that just pops into your head.
The great players always seem to be able to do this and pick the perfect tune, Johnny Connolly is a real master at this.
Another real test is to play a set of tunes all in the same root i.e. centred around G.
I know one box player in London who does this brilliantly, it's a real skill to be able to play a bunch of tunes in the same key without it getting boring.
This same-key set making was done by later Planxty and Patrick Street to good effect - the cumulative effect of, say, three or four tunes in D Major can be great. But I'd think that number of successive tunes in one of the minor keys would be dismal and tedious!
You can't really make enouh of thi subject. You have posed a good question and the answer lies in understanding music theory and its psychological affect on aural temperment. Listen to sets that intrigue (please) you.
You will find they obey basic rules regarding relationships of keys. Timing is equally important, however I do not have the ken to comment on that. The more you get into this musical "set theory", the more you will become an astute selector/editor of interesting tunes. You will have the aility to sructure your own program at will from the treasure trove of "the music".
I'm sick to my back teeth of sets constructed to give "lift". The tedious truck driver's key change. Such an artificial device can only appeal to those not really listening to the tunes. A really great standard in G for example, a perfectly self contained piece of beauty, totally ruined by tagging on some repetitive bit of nonsense in A.
the art of medleys
the art of medleys
I am wondering if there is any kind of format used in the arrangement of medleys ; certain key changes, meter changes, (title similarities
joke) ... or whatever else. I am needing to beef up my set of tunes for performance, and well, I know only about instinct and random choice be the main factors. I think that the art of grouping songs together is almost more important than the single tunes. Am I making too big of a deal about it?
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
two things:
The art of playing single tunes in infinitely greater than being able to successfully group them.
Unfortunatly, it's no joke, people often group tunes merely because of their titles.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: the art of medleys
I have to admit, I like Drowsy Maggie and Sleepy Maggie together.... ;)
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
I just struggle with a sense that I'm going about it all wrong, (kind of am joking about the SleepyDrowsy Maggie ) . What I'm asking, is there a tradition behind grouping?
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
...and the Teetotaler's with the Drunken Landlady...
In all seriousness, though, although I have a few principles that tend to serve me well in cobbling tunes together, I'm not sure that they're any more reliable than instinct and random choice. Transititons between tunes, like tunes themselves, need to have some element of surprise, which is antithetical to overregimenting the process of putting them together.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: the art of medleys
I think it's as varied as the player. I'm partial to making a mode voyage with sets of tunes, changing modes within the set, from tune to tune. Some group them by mode. Some do flashy things like airs into hornpipes, some keep tunes in sets by type only.
So, no, no help here. If you want a rule I'm afraid we have none for you.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the art of medleys
TD & M, as well as SWFL > thanks, you're teaching me. Let me ask then, is there anything I want to stay away from, avoid as far as no-no's in tradition? I dig the bit about surprise, I get that instinctinvely, and though I don't have a very well theory trained brain, I think I have basic instincts, and that's all i guess I can ever expect from the audience. Dropping 5ths seems to be common, but is it overdone? What other typical key and meter changes are there? Anything you tell me will help !
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
I like going from 3/4 to 6/8 , is that hokey?
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
No, not if it's done well. As others stated, there aren't rules, but there is a tradition. Usually, in Irish Music, like tunes are played with like. Reels with reels, jigs with jigs polkas with polkas etc. Only occasionally do people mix rhythms & it's usually at a performance. Remember this music is first & foremost for the dancers & a room full of dancers wouldn't be expecting a reel in the middle of a set of jigs. That's why traditionally like is kept with like. BTW Cape Breton players often string together a set starting with an air, moving on to a slow strathspey to a jug to a fast strathspey then a fast paced french reel or the like to build up energy & momentum. But unless you from CB if you did that at an Irish session - yo'd probably get a lot of veiled comments.
I base my sets on what sounds good together, never mind anything else. If the end part of a tune has a D7 figure, then G or A dor might be nice choices. If a tune has a lot of arppegios stick with it & put another 'jumpy' tune with it. Try to keep away from long sets all in the same key/mode - it can be a yawn for the backers & the punters. Two or so is fine but more than that, not so much.
hope this helps
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Mad Baloney
Re: the art of medleys
Thanks MadBaloney, that really does help. I'll keep those tips in mind !
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
Would it be too silly to ask, for performance sake, what most of you do as far as how many repetitions for one tune in a grouping ? Also , what is the 'usual' number of tunes in a 'typical' medley, it helps me to know.
Again, I am trying to establish for myself some kind of a format to organize all the random tunes I know, and how to better seek out new ones for medleys. Thanks again.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
I myself like going from minor to the related major. And I like adding sharps along the way, cycling up the circle of fifths. Like Brad says, the shape of the tune helps determine what fits. Two tunes my wife and I just started putting together are Farewell to Connaught and Woman of the House, one in D mixolidian (but with hints of D major), and the next in G, but with a lot of D major in the B part. Other than both having one sharp in the key signature, I wouldn't have thought they would work, but they do.
By the way, a little terminology clarification--songs have words, tunes do not. When you string songs together you have a medley, when you string tunes together you have a set.
And one last thing, for sessions, it is best to go from more obscure tunes to more well known, that way your set picks up more players as it rolls along, which makes everything more fun as it builds to a grand crescendo!
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: the art of medleys
A few more thoughts. Like Brad said, different types of tunes are not often grouped, as he said, that comes from the dance tradition. When they are grouped, two part tunes are generally repeated three times before you move to the next, sometimes more. Multipart tunes are often repeated less than the two parters. Tunes that don't repeat, like single reels, are usually repeated more. And around here anyhow, slower tunes, like waltzes and hornpipes, are generally only repeated twice.
The number of tunes in a set is limited only by the endurance of the players. Two or three tunes can often be enough, but in a session, you could get five or six in a row, with each new tune being inspired by the previous.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: the art of medleys
Al , thanks *so* much! Wow, I will try the examples you give, with tunes as I learn them. ALso, I didn't know that 'sets' were groups of tunes, I thought they were groups of .... well... sets. I have to get the lingo straight, and pardon me for my total blunders. I don't plan on playing in sessions, but just performing for open mics and such around the local eateries, or sitting in with my pals' gigs. Still, I want to do it *right* !
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
That's a great point Al, I do that all the time. It works at home sessions and when I visit other sessions. At home, you can introduce new tunes to your mates while you work you way towards a finishing tune that everyone knows. On the road, you can crank a rare one or two out when asked to start a set, and then work toward some real common ones that you can safely (hopefully!) assume everyone there will know.
Usually the mixing sets of different types of tunes (jig into a reel) is a flashy performance thing, not so traditional. Remember that it's dance music, so typically dancers will want to do once sort of dance to a set of tunes, a slide set, reels, whatever. Unless it's a step dancer doing a solo set dance where there's a fast and a slow part, typically dancers don't like dancing a reel step, then a jig step, and then a polka step, all in the same set of tunes. They may actually throw something heavy and sharp at you. [1/2 joke]
A lovely set we do locally, that is also the first we usually teach to beginners, is Morrison's Jig with The Kesh. That changing of modes is a way to get a cheap thrill, but it pleases the players and the listeners, not that we care too much about them in a session situation, of course. Heaven forbid. [ahem]
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the art of medleys
Thanks SWFL., that makes so much sense when I think about dancers. I suppose around here I won't have any dancers throwing anything sharp, nor blunt at me, because I doubt there are that many if any, where I am from.
Perhaps this thread might be even more helpful if players listed their favorite sets, with a sort of personal explaination as to why they clumped them together?
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
Ah, now that would be a good thread, jj. Perhaps a new one to catch everyone's attention, like "What's Your Favorite Set of Tunes?" Tell you what, I'll go ahead and start it up for us and we'll see what we get.
In the meantime, check this out, plenty of reading material about sets to confuse yourself with.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/index/search?name=sets
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the art of medleys
Thanks SWFL Fiddler !
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
About the link to the *sets* .... I blundered, and first searched 'medleys' but didn't find what I was looking for. But now I am wiser if even older.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: the art of medleys
My pleasure! We'll see what we catch with our "fishing trip" here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18221
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the art of medleys
I think the sequence in Scottish music of march (in whichever time) followed by strathspey, then reel, is a very good one. Not admittedly directly applicable to ITM in settings where marches and strathspeys don't feature.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by nicholas
Re: the art of medleys
That is interesting nicholas. Do they dance to those, do you know, by any chance?
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the art of medleys
SWFL Fiddler - As far as I know, the performance of a march, strathspey and reel in straight unbroken succession is done purely for listening, in recitals and competitions, usually on the Highland Bagpipes or the fiddle.
Scottish marches can come (at least) in 6/8, dotted 2/4 and undotted 2/4. The strathspey rhythm seems to buffer the various march rhythms very effectively and to incubate, almost, the reel that succeeds it.
I don't know for definite how many times each tune is played. A four-part march would be played once; a strathspey and a reel I guess would be played twice each, but I might be wrong.
I don't know if such a set of tunes, played straight through, is ever danced to. But surely in the history of TM - related amusement *someone*must have worked out how to!
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: the art of medleys
That's right Nicholas, it's usually a 2/4 doted march followed by a Stathspey and reel, usually all with 4 - 6 parts and played once through each. Occasionally lighter 2 part strathspeys and reels might be played - 2 or 3 of each played twice through.
Individually the 2/4 would be played for a Barndance, The strathspeys a schottiche or a fling and the reel is self explanatory.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Bogman
Re: the art of medleys
The art of medleys probably found its most interesting and possibly first stream of popularity in the 19th century with the common playing of Lancer and Quadrille sets.
The closest we come to experiencing them now, as pointed out to me by Jackie Small, is in John Hustons film adaptation of the James Joyce work "The Dead", from the collection of 15 short stories entitled "Dubliners".
A set of Quadrilles is a medly of 5 or 6 tunes, which alternate between compound and simple meters and have alot of other interesting little features. Despite being published in huge numbers, they're relatively hard to find now. I think that The Frank Roach Collection contains a few, and if you can wait a year or so, I hope to publish my 1896 collection from East Donegal.
If you're not too far away, check out the Archive of Irish Music in Dublin and you'll discover a whole new realm to the art of medleys.
Martin T.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by martin t
Re: the art of medleys
I think that the Canadians dance to the marches, strathspeys and the reels, different dances for each as things move along. But I have never actually been to one of their dances, so I am not sure of that. If someone would chime in and answer that, I would appreciate it. Or next time I see my neighbor, who grew up in the North, I will ask him.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: the art of medleys
It's all about using your ear, forget about theoretical nonsense regarding relative minors and so on. Of course they can work, but that kind of change is a tad predictable, particularly if it's painstakingly worked out beforehand.
The real art of the medley in Irish music is the ability to just start a tune without considering what one to come next and then when you feel like changing do so spontaneaously into a tune that just pops into your head.
The great players always seem to be able to do this and pick the perfect tune, Johnny Connolly is a real master at this.
Another real test is to play a set of tunes all in the same root i.e. centred around G.
I know one box player in London who does this brilliantly, it's a real skill to be able to play a bunch of tunes in the same key without it getting boring.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by The Transcriber
Re: the art of medleys
This same-key set making was done by later Planxty and Patrick Street to good effect - the cumulative effect of, say, three or four tunes in D Major can be great. But I'd think that number of successive tunes in one of the minor keys would be dismal and tedious!
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: the art of medleys
Good stuff everyone, many thanks. I'm just bumping this one again to fish for more responses.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the art of medleys
NIcholas, try playing three or four tunes in D Dorian/Minor then follow with a tune in A Major, it can have an amazing lift if done properly.
For example try
Julia Delaney's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/589
Followed by Mothers Delight,
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/257
Followed by Bobby Casey's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1533
Then into the big A reel
McFadden's Handsome Daughter
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1581
Sounds great to me, I do like those dark tunes though.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by The Transcriber
Re: the art of medleys
You can't really make enouh of thi subject. You have posed a good question and the answer lies in understanding music theory and its psychological affect on aural temperment. Listen to sets that intrigue (please) you.
You will find they obey basic rules regarding relationships of keys. Timing is equally important, however I do not have the ken to comment on that. The more you get into this musical "set theory", the more you will become an astute selector/editor of interesting tunes. You will have the aility to sructure your own program at will from the treasure trove of "the music".
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by hauke
Re: the art of medleys
I'm sick to my back teeth of sets constructed to give "lift". The tedious truck driver's key change. Such an artificial device can only appeal to those not really listening to the tunes. A really great standard in G for example, a perfectly self contained piece of beauty, totally ruined by tagging on some repetitive bit of nonsense in A.
# Posted on June 30th 2008 by llig leahcim