A couple of years ago I bought a P & H London carbon fibre bow that I've been using ever since. The bow that came with my new (old) fiddle feels smoother and more forgiving but seems to have less color and character than any other bow I've tried. - Maybe it just need re-hairing. This made me think about bows in general: People in the classical world pay thousands for a good bow. My fiddle teacher says he can't tell the difference and so uses a cheap chinese bow. I'd be interested to hear what others use and why. What is it that you're you actually paying for when buying a more expensive bow? Hey if this question has already been asked, someone point me in the right direction 'cos I can't find a similar thread.
In the classical world, you are paying for overall weight, how the bow responds in spiccato, frog vs. tip balance, and many other vague factors all adding up to personal preference and feeling. I am a double bass player and only a good, responsive, light bow will get me through the hooks in the first movement of the bass part of Beethoven's 7th, for example.
In the trad world, however, the nuances are different. Still present, but it's really about what is most comfortable. (and I will NEVER bring my double bass to a session.)
Rehairing the bow is probably a good place to start. Who knows when the hair was last replaced. Otherwise, go to a shop, play a few other bows and compare them to yours. I suspect that a rehair might go a long way, though. Good luck!
Being a fiddler during almost 15 years, i think i can say something about it.
Yesterday i bought a fiddle in a flea market in Madrid ( El Rastro, for those who know the city ) for 300 eur. in an antique ( spell?) shop. Wasn't a Stradivari, of course; but with the help of a experienced classical violinist friend outfited it ( bridge, strings, clean the dirt ) and resulted a french violin of the turn of the 20th century, average value would be 1500 - 200 eur.
The point is: although i've to "rebuilt" the sound ( wasn't played for 20 years ) the sound is not at all the same with a worthy bow than with a crappy one. The fiddle will sound always better witha good bow, no matter the music you play. So, i think you may save for to buya good enough bow (imho)
BTW, my main fiddle is a german one with a loud, clear and sharp sound, more or less 2000 - 2500 eur. dated 1907, i think - not violin maker, but old factory that were far better than nowadays ones -.
I've four bows, from 200 to 450 eur. And not always the most expensive are the best; tough they are when they are re-haired; the responsiveness is total with new hairs & strings.
Almost everything about bows is frustratingly intangible, but they can make an amazing difference. Best bow I've ever used was by a reasonably "big name" historical maker, there was a difference.
I got my present bow by comparing pairs of bows at a shop, changing the one I liked less. I found I kept coming back to one, then when I found it was actually 3/4 of the price I'd thought, that clinched it.
A good bow WILL make a difference fabphil.
I bought a good one (German 1890, pernambuco pine) about ten years ago for about £400 and it was immediately obvious that the wight and balance allowed me to do things like rolls and triplets with much more fluidity and speed than my previous bow. Then, a couple of years ago I bought an incredibow (carbon fibre) for £80 and I seldom use anything else now. It is quite simply the best bow I have ever used; especially for sesssions as it gives a good loud sound but is also very light and responsive. Their only weakness is the rubber material around the frog which will wear out after a couple of years and is difficult to replace. Mine is now held together with bits of insulating tape.
You can get various colours and sparkly ones too
Mark Harmer from this forum will be able to sort one out for you (usual 10% please Mark )
What I use and why FWIW ... I sometimes use a reasonable quality student bow (given to me with my fiddle), a trade-but-good-quality bow worth about $1500 AUS (acquired for nothing with a 7/8th fiddle bought for a friend) and a piece of junk that came with a viola another friend bought on eBay for $150 (viola, case and bow, yes it's a piece of scheidt).
I like my nice bow best but given that I'm not using classical techniques where weight/balance/grip etc are critical, the piece of junk works just fine and if I'm ever in a position to go to a session again, that's what I'll take because disasters will cause no distress. That said, there are junk bows here that I just can't use, and even a pernambuco one that is uncontrollable, so I'm lucky this light-ish viola bow is so usable.
The nice bow *feels* really nice to play with but with the (low) standard of my playing it does not make any difference to the overall sound so there's no point taking it into a crowd where drink has been taken.
I think you should pay as much as you can afford for a bow and as little as you can get away with for a fiddle. I've got a P&H bow like fabphil39's and it isn't too bad really, though I find it bounces about on the strings and feels a bit clumsy. I keep it with my eBay fiddle at work to practise in a storeroom (other players sometimes join me - it's that sort of place!) The bow I take to sessions is a CodaBow and I've never regretted buying it, though it wasn't cheap. Knocks spots off the P&H, though it was 3 times the price.
(BTW I'm *not* knocking pernambuco bows or really good ones at all, just saying I have one particular oddball one that no one seems to be able to use which "should" be OK, in contrast to the cheapo which "should" be unusable. Should have made that clearer.)
"pay as much as you can afford for a bow and as little as you can get away with for a fiddle" – RichardB. That's the best advice I've read. In my admittedly limited experience a good bow makes a LOT of difference, not just to the sound, but in making playing overall smoother and easier. Go for the rehair and at least find out if you've got a gem.
Having said that, though, I do think there is a point of diminishing returns in bows for This Music. I'm leery about paying thousands for a bow. Unless you're performing solo or recording, and even then. Most of the carbon fiber bows I've played and heard are superior to comparably priced wooden bows, but there have been exceptions. Of course, for some people with a sense of hearing more refined than mine, nothing less than a Sartori will do.
FWIW I use a pernambuco stick I got a decent deal on for $325 USD. I'd like to upgrade but it's fine for now.
I don't play the fiddle so my own advice is worthless, but a friend of mine who is an exceptional fiddle player got a new bow recently. He went into the shop not really knowing what to look for but was given advice that he appreciated. He was told to think of it like a car going round a track. A cheap car can slip and slide round the track while an F1 car will stick to the track and will be very responsive. You can see how this relates to a bow.
For the record, he asked for 5 bows to be laid out varying in price from £50 to £3000 with the price hidden so that he would only pick the one he felt was best and not told was the best. He chose a bow that cost £2000.
I just sorted thru about 12 carbon fibre bows the other week. I didn't know any of the prices...on the table lay ones from the cheapest to quite expensive. I spent an hour or two comparing and finally settled on 3:
-one cost $1200 canadian
-the other $800
-and one I quite liked turned out to be $165
I bought the cheapest one. It played almost as nicely as the 1,200 version...and the finish and details were quite as fany obviously...but was the difference a $1,000 difference? Probably not. I also have 2 wood bows...much more expensive than the Carbon Fibre one. I think the carbon bows outplays both. fwiw.
I'm surprised that your fiddle teacher can't tell the difference. In my experience it makes a huge difference. A good pernambuco stick just feels and sounds so much better than a cheap bow, to me. I find it much easier to play with a good bow.
It's true that fiddling doesn't put the same technical demands on the bow as classical playing, but bowing is one of the most difficult and important parts of fiddling and I find a good bow to be a real advantage.
I think that the advantages of a good bow are fairly obvious, and I suspect that there may be a bit of reverse snobbery on the part of people who claim to prefer a cheap bow. That, or they haven't tried a really good bow and don't realize how much of a difference it makes.
Oh, just to add: the price doesn't necessarily tell you how good a bow is. Sometimes an inexpensive bow can be as good as bows costing far more. How the bow is made is really more important than what it is made out of, while the material has a whole lot to do with the price.
I have found the incredibow to be perfectly good enough for session playing. It's tone is not as soft and mellow as I get from my "good" wooden bow, but it still sounds good and cuts through the racket - sorry, music nicely. The bow sticks well to the string and it's less likely to get broken if you drop it or someone puts something down on it in a session.
My best advice would be to try several bows, then look at the prices and see if the price justifies the difference in performance.
I'd recommend Mark Harmer for Incredibows too. http://www.danceofdelight.com/ - I included the web address so that should qualify for a 50% cut please Mark
I'd reccomend the Incredibow too. I dropped mine on the lovely wet concrete at Teignmouth seafront on saturday, and it's fine.... a wooden one might well have broken. Also, they are wonderful for playing outdoors in dismal drizzly conditions. (Teignmouth!!)
I personally find that tone has more to do with being physically relaxed than having an expensive bow, but that's a whole different discussion.
If you ever get a bow that really does the business to the nth degree you'll be hanging onto it even if you change the instrument a few times. If you look at the overall playability of the fiddle / bow combination (insofar as that is in any way quantifiable), you'll find that the bow contributes a lot more than the instrument.
I bought a used Coda Classic a year ago and I think it is a good bow for what I paid--$300. It's great for sessions as I don't worry if is dropped etc. But I would like to get something more responsive--anyone have experience with the arcus bows??
I don't know about Arcus bows, but if you want a responsive and well-balanced bow made of real pernambuco without spending a fortune, check out Water Violet bows from Brazil (Google the name to find them for sale). Arcos Brasil is a similar maker with bows that are about the same.
These are hand-made pernambuco bows that go for about $300-$500 for nickle-mount. That's an astonishing price for bows this good. I have a Water Violet stamped J.G. Buttoni that I bought for $350, and I would have gladly paid three times as much for such a good bow.
Leoj, you'll find the Arcus bow website at http://www.arcus-bow.de/ (there's a language option).
I've never seen one, but I've heard they're supposed to be pretty good, with a new approach to bow technology. Oh, and you'll be talking very serious money - they're at the top of the CF bow price range.
Thanks. I'm actually familiar with the arcus bow as it is sold by a local dealer. However, I would like to hear from someone who loves their arcus bow. I am considering wood as well. The arcus are really pretty bows and I'll doubtless be spending some time trying out new bows after my new fiddle arrives... whenever that is.
if you want a more traditional stick (and sound) the arcos folks are great...the makers M. Pereira and F Schaeffer used to work for Arcos but are now out on their own and both make great bows...they (and many Arcos makers) were taught in Belgium by Pierre Guillaume.
Expensive or cheap bow?
Expensive or cheap bow?
A couple of years ago I bought a P & H London carbon fibre bow that I've been using ever since. The bow that came with my new (old) fiddle feels smoother and more forgiving but seems to have less color and character than any other bow I've tried. - Maybe it just need re-hairing. This made me think about bows in general: People in the classical world pay thousands for a good bow. My fiddle teacher says he can't tell the difference and so uses a cheap chinese bow. I'd be interested to hear what others use and why. What is it that you're you actually paying for when buying a more expensive bow? Hey if this question has already been asked, someone point me in the right direction 'cos I can't find a similar thread.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by fabphil39
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
In the classical world, you are paying for overall weight, how the bow responds in spiccato, frog vs. tip balance, and many other vague factors all adding up to personal preference and feeling. I am a double bass player and only a good, responsive, light bow will get me through the hooks in the first movement of the bass part of Beethoven's 7th, for example.
In the trad world, however, the nuances are different. Still present, but it's really about what is most comfortable. (and I will NEVER bring my double bass to a session.)
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Rehairing the bow is probably a good place to start. Who knows when the hair was last replaced. Otherwise, go to a shop, play a few other bows and compare them to yours. I suspect that a rehair might go a long way, though. Good luck!
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by jasonb
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Being a fiddler during almost 15 years, i think i can say something about it.
Yesterday i bought a fiddle in a flea market in Madrid ( El Rastro, for those who know the city ) for 300 eur. in an antique ( spell?) shop. Wasn't a Stradivari, of course; but with the help of a experienced classical violinist friend outfited it ( bridge, strings, clean the dirt ) and resulted a french violin of the turn of the 20th century, average value would be 1500 - 200 eur.
The point is: although i've to "rebuilt" the sound ( wasn't played for 20 years ) the sound is not at all the same with a worthy bow than with a crappy one. The fiddle will sound always better witha good bow, no matter the music you play. So, i think you may save for to buya good enough bow (imho)
Regards
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Fernandito
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Thats a shame greg, I play with a bass player, do reconsider. [he played a lot with Niall Vallely and numerous other great players]
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Shame
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
BTW, my main fiddle is a german one with a loud, clear and sharp sound, more or less 2000 - 2500 eur. dated 1907, i think - not violin maker, but old factory that were far better than nowadays ones -.
I've four bows, from 200 to 450 eur. And not always the most expensive are the best; tough they are when they are re-haired; the responsiveness is total with new hairs & strings.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Fernandito
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
More here
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11821/comments#comment240207
Almost everything about bows is frustratingly intangible, but they can make an amazing difference. Best bow I've ever used was by a reasonably "big name" historical maker, there was a difference.
I got my present bow by comparing pairs of bows at a shop, changing the one I liked less. I found I kept coming back to one, then when I found it was actually 3/4 of the price I'd thought, that clinched it.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
A good bow WILL make a difference fabphil.
I bought a good one (German 1890, pernambuco pine) about ten years ago for about £400 and it was immediately obvious that the wight and balance allowed me to do things like rolls and triplets with much more fluidity and speed than my previous bow. Then, a couple of years ago I bought an incredibow (carbon fibre) for £80 and I seldom use anything else now. It is quite simply the best bow I have ever used; especially for sesssions as it gives a good loud sound but is also very light and responsive. Their only weakness is the rubber material around the frog which will wear out after a couple of years and is difficult to replace. Mine is now held together with bits of insulating tape.
You can get various colours and sparkly ones too
Mark Harmer from this forum will be able to sort one out for you (usual 10% please Mark
)
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
What I use and why FWIW ... I sometimes use a reasonable quality student bow (given to me with my fiddle), a trade-but-good-quality bow worth about $1500 AUS (acquired for nothing with a 7/8th fiddle bought for a friend) and a piece of junk that came with a viola another friend bought on eBay for $150 (viola, case and bow, yes it's a piece of scheidt).
I like my nice bow best but given that I'm not using classical techniques where weight/balance/grip etc are critical, the piece of junk works just fine and if I'm ever in a position to go to a session again, that's what I'll take because disasters will cause no distress. That said, there are junk bows here that I just can't use, and even a pernambuco one that is uncontrollable, so I'm lucky this light-ish viola bow is so usable.
The nice bow *feels* really nice to play with but with the (low) standard of my playing it does not make any difference to the overall sound so there's no point taking it into a crowd where drink has been taken.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Tish
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I think you should pay as much as you can afford for a bow and as little as you can get away with for a fiddle. I've got a P&H bow like fabphil39's and it isn't too bad really, though I find it bounces about on the strings and feels a bit clumsy. I keep it with my eBay fiddle at work to practise in a storeroom (other players sometimes join me - it's that sort of place!) The bow I take to sessions is a CodaBow and I've never regretted buying it, though it wasn't cheap. Knocks spots off the P&H, though it was 3 times the price.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by RichardB
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
(BTW I'm *not* knocking pernambuco bows or really good ones at all, just saying I have one particular oddball one that no one seems to be able to use which "should" be OK, in contrast to the cheapo which "should" be unusable. Should have made that clearer.)
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Tish
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
"pay as much as you can afford for a bow and as little as you can get away with for a fiddle" – RichardB. That's the best advice I've read. In my admittedly limited experience a good bow makes a LOT of difference, not just to the sound, but in making playing overall smoother and easier. Go for the rehair and at least find out if you've got a gem.
Having said that, though, I do think there is a point of diminishing returns in bows for This Music. I'm leery about paying thousands for a bow. Unless you're performing solo or recording, and even then. Most of the carbon fiber bows I've played and heard are superior to comparably priced wooden bows, but there have been exceptions. Of course, for some people with a sense of hearing more refined than mine, nothing less than a Sartori will do.
FWIW I use a pernambuco stick I got a decent deal on for $325 USD. I'd like to upgrade but it's fine for now.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by fidkid
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I don't play the fiddle so my own advice is worthless, but a friend of mine who is an exceptional fiddle player got a new bow recently. He went into the shop not really knowing what to look for but was given advice that he appreciated. He was told to think of it like a car going round a track. A cheap car can slip and slide round the track while an F1 car will stick to the track and will be very responsive. You can see how this relates to a bow.
For the record, he asked for 5 bows to be laid out varying in price from £50 to £3000 with the price hidden so that he would only pick the one he felt was best and not told was the best. He chose a bow that cost £2000.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Bogman
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I just sorted thru about 12 carbon fibre bows the other week. I didn't know any of the prices...on the table lay ones from the cheapest to quite expensive. I spent an hour or two comparing and finally settled on 3:
-one cost $1200 canadian
-the other $800
-and one I quite liked turned out to be $165
I bought the cheapest one. It played almost as nicely as the 1,200 version...and the finish and details were quite as fany obviously...but was the difference a $1,000 difference? Probably not. I also have 2 wood bows...much more expensive than the Carbon Fibre one. I think the carbon bows outplays both. fwiw.
bought mine at: http://www.thesoundpost.com/EN/
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by mtodd
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I'm surprised that your fiddle teacher can't tell the difference. In my experience it makes a huge difference. A good pernambuco stick just feels and sounds so much better than a cheap bow, to me. I find it much easier to play with a good bow.
It's true that fiddling doesn't put the same technical demands on the bow as classical playing, but bowing is one of the most difficult and important parts of fiddling and I find a good bow to be a real advantage.
I think that the advantages of a good bow are fairly obvious, and I suspect that there may be a bit of reverse snobbery on the part of people who claim to prefer a cheap bow. That, or they haven't tried a really good bow and don't realize how much of a difference it makes.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Oh, just to add: the price doesn't necessarily tell you how good a bow is. Sometimes an inexpensive bow can be as good as bows costing far more. How the bow is made is really more important than what it is made out of, while the material has a whole lot to do with the price.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I have found the incredibow to be perfectly good enough for session playing. It's tone is not as soft and mellow as I get from my "good" wooden bow, but it still sounds good and cuts through the racket - sorry, music
nicely. The bow sticks well to the string and it's less likely to get broken if you drop it or someone puts something down on it in a session.
My best advice would be to try several bows, then look at the prices and see if the price justifies the difference in performance.
I'd recommend Mark Harmer for Incredibows too. http://www.danceofdelight.com/ - I included the web address so that should qualify for a 50% cut please Mark
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by bowburner
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I'd reccomend the Incredibow too. I dropped mine on the lovely wet concrete at Teignmouth seafront on saturday, and it's fine.... a wooden one might well have broken. Also, they are wonderful for playing outdoors in dismal drizzly conditions. (Teignmouth!!)
I personally find that tone has more to do with being physically relaxed than having an expensive bow, but that's a whole different discussion.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Freddy Frog
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
If you ever get a bow that really does the business to the nth degree you'll be hanging onto it even if you change the instrument a few times. If you look at the overall playability of the fiddle / bow combination (insofar as that is in any way quantifiable), you'll find that the bow contributes a lot more than the instrument.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I bought a used Coda Classic a year ago and I think it is a good bow for what I paid--$300. It's great for sessions as I don't worry if is dropped etc. But I would like to get something more responsive--anyone have experience with the arcus bows??
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by leoj
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I don't know about Arcus bows, but if you want a responsive and well-balanced bow made of real pernambuco without spending a fortune, check out Water Violet bows from Brazil (Google the name to find them for sale). Arcos Brasil is a similar maker with bows that are about the same.
These are hand-made pernambuco bows that go for about $300-$500 for nickle-mount. That's an astonishing price for bows this good. I have a Water Violet stamped J.G. Buttoni that I bought for $350, and I would have gladly paid three times as much for such a good bow.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Leoj, you'll find the Arcus bow website at http://www.arcus-bow.de/ (there's a language option).
I've never seen one, but I've heard they're supposed to be pretty good, with a new approach to bow technology. Oh, and you'll be talking very serious money - they're at the top of the CF bow price range.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Thanks. I'm actually familiar with the arcus bow as it is sold by a local dealer. However, I would like to hear from someone who loves their arcus bow. I am considering wood as well. The arcus are really pretty bows and I'll doubtless be spending some time trying out new bows after my new fiddle arrives... whenever that is.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by leoj
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Hey you've convinced me. I just went to the incredibow website and bought one. At that price and with these recommendations I figure its worth a try.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by fabphil39
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
Welcome to the club
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by bowburner
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
I don't think you'll be disappointed fabphil.
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Expensive or cheap bow?
for what the incredibows are, they are awesome
if you want a more traditional stick (and sound) the arcos folks are great...the makers M. Pereira and F Schaeffer used to work for Arcos but are now out on their own and both make great bows...they (and many Arcos makers) were taught in Belgium by Pierre Guillaume.
# Posted on June 25th 2008 by Sunnybear