I was playing with three other musicians (two whistles and another, rather quiet fiddler) for set dancers the other night. Since there was no amplification, and we were a relatively small and quiet group (or so we seemed against the noise of the dancers), I felt the need to try to play loud. Unfortunately this translated subconsciously as "press harder", which has cause my right thumb to ache when I play. I know better than to do this, and have worked on eliminating this counterproductive habit. How does one approach this type of situation, technically and musically?
More bow speed equals more volume. Use more double-stops too, when possible. And lots of rosin. Some makes/models of strings are louder too, if you anticipate doing a lot of this. Low action (strings close to the fingerboard) also reduces loudness.
Also--try some other fiddles, to see if yours is just not very loud. My spare violin is a 1960s German factory fiddle that has very little volume. I was told that it is a student violin, built very sturdily (to be kicked around on a school bus) and to be less loud (to make it easier on the parents' ears).
Playing "harder" to play louder is easy to fall into when a herd of dancer or a noisy pub overwhelms your normal volume. I usually catch myself only after one hand or the other starts to complain about it.
One option is to think less about "louder" and more about simply *projecting* into the room. Rather than pushing, listen for the sweet spot and stay on it. On fiddle, run the bow a little closer to the bridge and increase your bow speed (not pressure).
You can also try using the room's acoustics to your advantage--sit in a corner for "corner loading" to send the most of your sound into the room.
I don't play fiddle, and I don't really play for Irish dancing much. But sometimes the insights you derive from playing for other kinds of dancing can be helpful. One of my other activities is morris dancing, which involves performing to (usually) unamplified instruments in an outdoor setting. Obviously, this makes it extremely important for the musicians to make themselves heard enough such that the dancers aren't thrown off.
The best morris dance fiddlers I've seen are those who are able to project enough of the tune to give the dancers a good, solid rhythm to work with. They do this with double stops, as mickray had suggested. They also sometimes simplify the tune if necessary to make sure the rhythm isn't being "lost."
Again, morris dancing is a very different animal from Irish trad, but some of these considerations might work.
I'd suggest some minimal amplification, even something like a Roland Cube Street and a microphone would make a world of difference. Playing for dancers is enough work without having to deal with lack of amplification.
Jason, in view of your bio a lot of what I say below may already be known to you, but there are others who may find it useful.
Many fiddles can be worked on by a luthier to give more projection (or loudness, if you prefer). Typical useful strings for a bigger tone are ones like the heavy gauge Helicores, possibly with a Pirastro covered E. As Mickray said, merely pressing harder with the bow is counterproductive - it tends to stifle the tone. Try longer, faster bows with just enough pressure to make the string sing. And try playing closer to the bridge, say 1/4 - 1/3 of the distance from the bridge to the fingerboard. Make sure your bow is playing as parallel to the bridge as possible - a bow that isn't playing parallel will generate unwanted noise and so diminish both the quality and quantity of the sound. All of the above implies a good relaxed bow hold and plenty of thoughtful practice (in front of a mirror for the parallel business).
The bow is often the forgotten part of the equation – a mediocre bow will deaden the tone without the player realising what's happening, but a good quality bow will transform the sound and response.
If you get the opportunity watch television closeups (or on YouTube) of great concert violinists in action and see how they do it - they're in the business of projecting their sound over an orchestra to an audience of several hundred or even a couple of thousands without using a mic. There are of course many trad fiddlers who can do this too, but vids of the classical guys may be easier to get hold of.
And don't forget the Todd Ehle teaching videos on YouTube - they really are among the best in the absence of a live teacher.
As I work with an amplified band, I sometimes worry about projection and audiblility when working acoustically instead.
But my advice would be "Don't worry." If the dancers complain, then you have a problem. If they don't, then you must actually be audible, despite any fears of yours.
How did anyone manage before electricity ? They did, we know so.
This thing of beating the music and the dance to death while seeing who can hit the floor the loudest and most often is shight, in my opinion. Don't play up to them. If they are considerate and love truly love the music they will temper their enthusiasm so they can hear what they are supposedly dancing to...
If you allow yourself to be pressed, well, you might end up joining a slew of other musicians that have done damage to themselves in the mayhem. RSI is not a pleasant habit to develop... Play the music as you have, with love and passion, and don't change it to compete with noise. It will only damage your joy and could lead to your passion being soured slightly... It is a great thing that you're willing to play for dancers. Dancers need to learn to appreciate the differences between acoustic music, as it used to be, and the new rave of amplification, whether live or recorded. Don't give in and allow the modern wave of idiocy destroy your pleasures here.
If there is a raised platform, such as a stage, then one way to help get the music out there is over the top of the dancers, use any stage at your disposal. It does help with distributing the music better, filling a room or hall, amplified or not... Bodies, all that cloth, absorbs sound waves.
In the previous rant, we've played acoustically in some pretty good sized halls, and the dancers were considerate, so the above comment is from experience. Unfortunately 'battering' in Irish set dancing, a good term for it, has become a form of abuse and ignorance, and I'm not the only musician/dancer to be aware of it or publicly air my distaste for it...
Certainly don't use more bow. Jason,unless I'm totally confused as to who you are I'm pretty sure which session you played on Wednesday - there are usually more players. Don't sweat it - the dancers can hear you.
Thanks, reenactor. The rest of us were just guessing, not having heard Jason ourselves--and your Sound Lantern clip of Cooleys is great evidence that you would know whether he is loud enough or not. (Note to Self: I also should read a poster's bio first, before blathering away. Doh!)
Thanks everyone. Good to hear from you T.J. There were certainly a lot more musicians the last time I was there, but from what I've heard, it sounds like the attendance has been sparser lately (hopefully I'm mistaken). We seemed so quiet on the stage, does the sound there just project out well in that room?
*grins* I was right! Nice to see you to Jason and hopefully we'll get some more tunes in this summer. I think they can hear you - that stage has that nice clamshell shape and I think it's pretty live. They also always have a CD player handy and the fact that they weren't using it suggests they felt there were sufficient numbers of musicians to project.
It sounds like the perfect stage, as long as you can set your tempo and tunes by listening to each other ~ NOT the dancers, who recieve your music just a little bit later, after it leaves you and the stage. Musicians sometimes get caught up in a race, falling into the trap of listening to the dancers and starting to follow that than their own internal and shared clock... It can throw you, and it has thrown some of the greats even...
Good to hear support from someone else who was there and listening. Great support, you can't ask for more, except some adjustment to the volume of feet... Good luck...
Playing for Dancers
Playing for Dancers
I was playing with three other musicians (two whistles and another, rather quiet fiddler) for set dancers the other night. Since there was no amplification, and we were a relatively small and quiet group (or so we seemed against the noise of the dancers), I felt the need to try to play loud. Unfortunately this translated subconsciously as "press harder", which has cause my right thumb to ache when I play. I know better than to do this, and have worked on eliminating this counterproductive habit. How does one approach this type of situation, technically and musically?
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by jasonb
Re: Playing for Dancers
More bow speed equals more volume. Use more double-stops too, when possible. And lots of rosin. Some makes/models of strings are louder too, if you anticipate doing a lot of this. Low action (strings close to the fingerboard) also reduces loudness.
Also--try some other fiddles, to see if yours is just not very loud. My spare violin is a 1960s German factory fiddle that has very little volume. I was told that it is a student violin, built very sturdily (to be kicked around on a school bus) and to be less loud (to make it easier on the parents' ears).
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by mickray
Re: Playing for Dancers
Playing "harder" to play louder is easy to fall into when a herd of dancer or a noisy pub overwhelms your normal volume. I usually catch myself only after one hand or the other starts to complain about it.
One option is to think less about "louder" and more about simply *projecting* into the room. Rather than pushing, listen for the sweet spot and stay on it. On fiddle, run the bow a little closer to the bridge and increase your bow speed (not pressure).
You can also try using the room's acoustics to your advantage--sit in a corner for "corner loading" to send the most of your sound into the room.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Playing for Dancers
Don't play harder, leave more gaps so you can get more attack and rhythm into it.
Its the bits you don't play that matters, not the bits you do.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Playing for Dancers
I don't play fiddle, and I don't really play for Irish dancing much. But sometimes the insights you derive from playing for other kinds of dancing can be helpful. One of my other activities is morris dancing, which involves performing to (usually) unamplified instruments in an outdoor setting. Obviously, this makes it extremely important for the musicians to make themselves heard enough such that the dancers aren't thrown off.
The best morris dance fiddlers I've seen are those who are able to project enough of the tune to give the dancers a good, solid rhythm to work with. They do this with double stops, as mickray had suggested. They also sometimes simplify the tune if necessary to make sure the rhythm isn't being "lost."
Again, morris dancing is a very different animal from Irish trad, but some of these considerations might work.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by sts
Re: Playing for Dancers
I'd suggest some minimal amplification, even something like a Roland Cube Street and a microphone would make a world of difference. Playing for dancers is enough work without having to deal with lack of amplification.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by Michael Eskin
Re: Playing for Dancers
Jason, in view of your bio a lot of what I say below may already be known to you, but there are others who may find it useful.
Many fiddles can be worked on by a luthier to give more projection (or loudness, if you prefer). Typical useful strings for a bigger tone are ones like the heavy gauge Helicores, possibly with a Pirastro covered E. As Mickray said, merely pressing harder with the bow is counterproductive - it tends to stifle the tone. Try longer, faster bows with just enough pressure to make the string sing. And try playing closer to the bridge, say 1/4 - 1/3 of the distance from the bridge to the fingerboard. Make sure your bow is playing as parallel to the bridge as possible - a bow that isn't playing parallel will generate unwanted noise and so diminish both the quality and quantity of the sound. All of the above implies a good relaxed bow hold and plenty of thoughtful practice (in front of a mirror for the parallel business).
The bow is often the forgotten part of the equation – a mediocre bow will deaden the tone without the player realising what's happening, but a good quality bow will transform the sound and response.
If you get the opportunity watch television closeups (or on YouTube) of great concert violinists in action and see how they do it - they're in the business of projecting their sound over an orchestra to an audience of several hundred or even a couple of thousands without using a mic. There are of course many trad fiddlers who can do this too, but vids of the classical guys may be easier to get hold of.
And don't forget the Todd Ehle teaching videos on YouTube - they really are among the best in the absence of a live teacher.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Playing for Dancers
As I work with an amplified band, I sometimes worry about projection and audiblility when working acoustically instead.
But my advice would be "Don't worry." If the dancers complain, then you have a problem. If they don't, then you must actually be audible, despite any fears of yours.
How did anyone manage before electricity ? They did, we know so.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Playing for Dancers
Find more considerate dancers...
This thing of beating the music and the dance to death while seeing who can hit the floor the loudest and most often is shight, in my opinion. Don't play up to them. If they are considerate and love truly love the music they will temper their enthusiasm so they can hear what they are supposedly dancing to...
If you allow yourself to be pressed, well, you might end up joining a slew of other musicians that have done damage to themselves in the mayhem. RSI is not a pleasant habit to develop... Play the music as you have, with love and passion, and don't change it to compete with noise. It will only damage your joy and could lead to your passion being soured slightly... It is a great thing that you're willing to play for dancers. Dancers need to learn to appreciate the differences between acoustic music, as it used to be, and the new rave of amplification, whether live or recorded. Don't give in and allow the modern wave of idiocy destroy your pleasures here.
Just being silly ~ you could throw a rug down...
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing for Dancers
If there is a raised platform, such as a stage, then one way to help get the music out there is over the top of the dancers, use any stage at your disposal. It does help with distributing the music better, filling a room or hall, amplified or not... Bodies, all that cloth, absorbs sound waves.
In the previous rant, we've played acoustically in some pretty good sized halls, and the dancers were considerate, so the above comment is from experience. Unfortunately 'battering' in Irish set dancing, a good term for it, has become a form of abuse and ignorance, and I'm not the only musician/dancer to be aware of it or publicly air my distaste for it...
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
~ distaste for it ~ in excess...
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing for Dancers
Er - if you played quietly would they a) dance more quietly so they could hear or b) carry on whether they could hear you or not.
If a), you've cracked it, if b), they obviously wouldn't notice whether you were there or not so leave and find a session.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by c.g.
Re: Playing for Dancers
Nicely put c.g. ~
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing for Dancers
Certainly don't use more bow. Jason,unless I'm totally confused as to who you are I'm pretty sure which session you played on Wednesday - there are usually more players. Don't sweat it - the dancers can hear you.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by reenactor
Re: Playing for Dancers
Thanks, reenactor. The rest of us were just guessing, not having heard Jason ourselves--and your Sound Lantern clip of Cooleys is great evidence that you would know whether he is loud enough or not. (Note to Self: I also should read a poster's bio first, before blathering away. Doh!)
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by mickray
Re: Playing for Dancers
Thanks everyone. Good to hear from you T.J. There were certainly a lot more musicians the last time I was there, but from what I've heard, it sounds like the attendance has been sparser lately (hopefully I'm mistaken). We seemed so quiet on the stage, does the sound there just project out well in that room?
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by jasonb
Re: Playing for Dancers
*grins* I was right! Nice to see you to Jason and hopefully we'll get some more tunes in this summer. I think they can hear you - that stage has that nice clamshell shape and I think it's pretty live. They also always have a CD player handy and the fact that they weren't using it suggests they felt there were sufficient numbers of musicians to project.
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by reenactor
Re: Playing for Dancers
It sounds like the perfect stage, as long as you can set your tempo and tunes by listening to each other ~ NOT the dancers, who recieve your music just a little bit later, after it leaves you and the stage. Musicians sometimes get caught up in a race, falling into the trap of listening to the dancers and starting to follow that than their own internal and shared clock... It can throw you, and it has thrown some of the greats even...
Good to hear support from someone else who was there and listening. Great support, you can't ask for more, except some adjustment to the volume of feet...
Good luck...
# Posted on June 23rd 2008 by ceolachan