For future reference, you can check using recordings,
go to the album,
e.g. http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/115
then look at the track numbers to find the tune, in this case its the second tune on track 11.
It matters because I constantly come across people, often well versed in a different genre of music with no idea what they are hearing, who think that if they play a simple, incomplete transcription, then they have it. I'm not saying that Murlach is that person. He/she could well have a good reason to request the notation, maybe they are a really good player who's depping for someone at a gig tomorrow night and they need to learn the tune sharpish and they haven't much time, so a short cut is in order. That's why I asked the question before going in to this.
It's just that this music has a lot of stuff going on in it. Lots and lots of notes, passing and percussive, elusive and transient. And what you find in the written music, what's referred to as the "bare bones", does not have any of this subtlety. It's not really the music. This of course is not a problem if you know about all the subtlety.
The only way to play this music is to copy what you hear. And if you need assistance in being able to hear the "bare bones" how are you going to be able to hear the subtlety?
Hearing the music in all its subtlety takes an amount of study and a large part of this study comes from transferring what you hear to your instrument.
Well, many years ago, before I had a developed ear, I required notation as I had very limited access to recorded music. I was also lucky in that I received endless encouragement from so many people and no judgement about my lack of ability.
Luckily I have also been able to develop my ear, and been able to see that notation is not, as you say, the answer. However, with sufficient exposure to tunes, it should become apparent to most budding musicians that there is more than just the "bare bones" to any tune. Surely we should not expect any novice to have this insight?
My concern is that encouragement is vital if any budding musician is to progress with any degree of confidence. It is not just a question of "the only way to play this music is to copy what you hear" - not everyone can have the opportunity to hear top class players, and surely, in the past, exposure to top class players would have been very limited. Rather, I imagine, most people will have listened to and learned from many mediocre musicians, and the best of those will have developed further than those that they learned from.
Furthermore, many many musicians would have played for dancers and whilst not technically great would have offered good rhythm in their playing - more than adequate for the needs of dancers.
Before we challenge anyone for asking for notation, perhaps we should consider that the request may be coming from a novice and that being able to find the notes for a tune that is really appealing may be the catalyst for greater things for that player.
Did you check the profile for Murlach? Did you stop to think that your cynicism may actually put a budding musician off or knock his/her confidence?
Murlach, your profile says nothing - perhaps you are a highly experienced and gifted player and this comment from llig means nothing. However, if you are a novice - be encouraged that more players will help you than question your motives and, even if you never become technically adept, remember that this music is really at its best in a shared experience, and as a means of bringing people together is far more enjoyable than striving for elitism or satisfying those who seek to judge, or even pre-judge!!
That's a good post Feargal and I agree with every one of your sentiments. Specifically, I agree that encouragement is vital if any budding musician is to progress with any degree of confidence. I'm a cynic and I'm jaded and I often struggle with being more open to people coming to the music. It's my fault. (of course I checked the profile for Murlach, it was blank.)
However, you say that not everyone can have the opportunity to hear top class players. I agree that a very few who are interested in this music can have the opportunity to sit and play with top class players, but the ability to hear them is surely universal - such is the nature if recording and publishing and the interweb
You say that it is not just a question of, "the only way to play this music is to copy what you hear". You are right, you must also contribute something of your self to it. But, to "learn the bare bones and then come up with your own 'subtlety'", as Penfold says, is not the music and should be discouraged.
However, I do believe that the best way to learn and play this music is to make the effort to listen and try to reproduce how it sounds.
"However, I do believe that the best way to learn and play this music is to make the effort to listen and try to reproduce how it sounds."
This is the bottom line!
Regarding access to top class players - like me, many years ago, I did not know who the top class payers were, so how are novices to know, at least initially, despite their clear advantage over me with such access over the web?
Passing of time, experience, interaction with players with more talent and experience, exposure to great music, played by great musicians will surely help all learners improve and learn to identify who to listen to more.
This will help target who should be listened to - but should not limit the listener to just these players - many lesser talented musicians will still bring something to the table of knowledge - respect of the music itself, knowledge of past musicians, knowledge of managing maintenance of your instrument, knowledge of the best players to listen to, etc, - we can learn from anyone!
I have a daughter with special needs (Down's Syndrome) - I have learned so much from her - most notably patience!
That you're a cynic Mr Gill. is beyond doubt, you poor thing.as there is no cure. Unless you want to be cured Being jaded has a remedy though.....you could haul yourself off to a lake side shore and wile away the hours fishing instead of doggedly fielding all the posts that arrive at The Session that don't concur with you're entrenched mindset!
Perhaps you are missing the point about LL and his perspective of ITM, look up the definition of 'phenomonon' as I did - and I quote.
something that is impressive or extraordinary.
a remarkable or exceptional person; prodigy; wonder.
Philosophy. a. an appearance or immediate object of awareness in experience.
Kantianism. a thing as it appears to and is constructed by the mind, as distinguished from a noumenon, or thing-in-itself.
[Origin: 1595–1605; < LL phaenomenon < Gk phainómenon appearance, n. use of neut. of phainómenos, prp. of phaínesthai to appear, pass. of phaínein to show]
Perhaps Gill, you lack the musical ability to attempt anything more advanced than to 'try to reproduce how the music sounds'. The ability to create one's own variations and nuances rather than merely mimicking a particular recording, I feel, is what separates the more advanced players from your 'novices'.
That 'lack the ability...anything more advanced' is a bit of a cheap shot wouldn't you think?
To successfully 'create one's own variations and nuances' there has to be a complete understanding of the subject and it's language unless you're happy to sound plain alien and like you're missing the point.
To reach that point the way Michael is advocating (and he never mentioned 'mimicking a recording' ) is not exactly the worst one.
Oh so eloquently put Mr Feargal, and exactly the right sentiment.
I have been playing for a few years now, and must admit that i've been on the receiving end of a "you've got a recording, why do you need the dots", when I requested the notation to a tune that had got into my head whilst listening to a recording.
Before my post requesting a pointer to the notation to give me the "bones" of the tune, i'd been playing the tune as I saw it, alongside the "slow down" facility in media player, but couldn't make it sound right.
It may have been the inflection of the bowing that was throwing me out, or I may have had some of the notes wrong.
Either way, the ability to pick up a "standard" version of the tune, then to be worked upon, would have been a great help.
In the end, I mentioned the tune to a vastly more experienced player at a local session, who kindly went away and came back the next week, having got the bones of it himself, and helpfully then showed it to me.
You could say that this is the way the "tradition" should be, and that the exchange of tunes should come in this manner, but just to gain a certain amount of pleasure from having a version to play, I don't think that picking up a version off the "dots" or an ABC file is any bad thing.
Certainly, the "why do you need" comment put me in my place, stopped me from using this resource in one of it's most useful forms and, I suppose, re-inforced the impression of the poster of the reply as a person of craft and deep knowledge (possibly that was the idea!)
Succinctly put and accurately expressed for the toiling and hopefully improving lower end Feargal.
Penfold, I did say: it is not just a question of, the only way to play this music is to copy what you hear, you must also contribute something of your self to it also.
Lunasa
Lunasa
Hey
Does anyone know where i can find the notation for the tune Kevin Crawford plays in this set .
cheer
murlach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWLjhXXr68E
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by murlach
Re: Lunasa
The tune is:
Good morning to your Nightcap
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/115
For future reference, you can check using recordings,
go to the album,
e.g. http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/115
then look at the track numbers to find the tune, in this case its the second tune on track 11.
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by tnoumarap
Re: Lunasa
This tune is on the session tunes list as The Wedding Reel, also known as: MacLeod's Farewell, Madonna's, McClouds Farewell, The Wedding.
See the comments against that tune - links back to Lunasa (who I luuurve by the way!).
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by jinksy
Re: Lunasa
He asked for the one Crawford plays, which would be the second tune in the set.
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by tnoumarap
Re: Lunasa
The second tune is Good Morning to your Nightcap as tnoumarap says.
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by bogman
Re: Lunasa
Why do you need notation if you have a recording of it?
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Lunasa
"Why do you need notation if you have a recording of it?"
Why does it matter?
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by Feargal French
Re: Lunasa
Well, I admit I have a bug bear about it, sorry.
It matters because I constantly come across people, often well versed in a different genre of music with no idea what they are hearing, who think that if they play a simple, incomplete transcription, then they have it. I'm not saying that Murlach is that person. He/she could well have a good reason to request the notation, maybe they are a really good player who's depping for someone at a gig tomorrow night and they need to learn the tune sharpish and they haven't much time, so a short cut is in order. That's why I asked the question before going in to this.
It's just that this music has a lot of stuff going on in it. Lots and lots of notes, passing and percussive, elusive and transient. And what you find in the written music, what's referred to as the "bare bones", does not have any of this subtlety. It's not really the music. This of course is not a problem if you know about all the subtlety.
The only way to play this music is to copy what you hear. And if you need assistance in being able to hear the "bare bones" how are you going to be able to hear the subtlety?
Hearing the music in all its subtlety takes an amount of study and a large part of this study comes from transferring what you hear to your instrument.
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Lunasa
Or perhaps people would like to learn the bare bones and then come up with their own 'subtlety'...
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by Penfold
Re: Lunasa
Well, many years ago, before I had a developed ear, I required notation as I had very limited access to recorded music. I was also lucky in that I received endless encouragement from so many people and no judgement about my lack of ability.
Luckily I have also been able to develop my ear, and been able to see that notation is not, as you say, the answer. However, with sufficient exposure to tunes, it should become apparent to most budding musicians that there is more than just the "bare bones" to any tune. Surely we should not expect any novice to have this insight?
My concern is that encouragement is vital if any budding musician is to progress with any degree of confidence. It is not just a question of "the only way to play this music is to copy what you hear" - not everyone can have the opportunity to hear top class players, and surely, in the past, exposure to top class players would have been very limited. Rather, I imagine, most people will have listened to and learned from many mediocre musicians, and the best of those will have developed further than those that they learned from.
Furthermore, many many musicians would have played for dancers and whilst not technically great would have offered good rhythm in their playing - more than adequate for the needs of dancers.
Before we challenge anyone for asking for notation, perhaps we should consider that the request may be coming from a novice and that being able to find the notes for a tune that is really appealing may be the catalyst for greater things for that player.
Did you check the profile for Murlach? Did you stop to think that your cynicism may actually put a budding musician off or knock his/her confidence?
Murlach, your profile says nothing - perhaps you are a highly experienced and gifted player and this comment from llig means nothing. However, if you are a novice - be encouraged that more players will help you than question your motives and, even if you never become technically adept, remember that this music is really at its best in a shared experience, and as a means of bringing people together is far more enjoyable than striving for elitism or satisfying those who seek to judge, or even pre-judge!!
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by Feargal French
Re: Lunasa
That's a good post Feargal and I agree with every one of your sentiments. Specifically, I agree that encouragement is vital if any budding musician is to progress with any degree of confidence. I'm a cynic and I'm jaded and I often struggle with being more open to people coming to the music. It's my fault. (of course I checked the profile for Murlach, it was blank.)
However, you say that not everyone can have the opportunity to hear top class players. I agree that a very few who are interested in this music can have the opportunity to sit and play with top class players, but the ability to hear them is surely universal - such is the nature if recording and publishing and the interweb
You say that it is not just a question of, "the only way to play this music is to copy what you hear". You are right, you must also contribute something of your self to it. But, to "learn the bare bones and then come up with your own 'subtlety'", as Penfold says, is not the music and should be discouraged.
However, I do believe that the best way to learn and play this music is to make the effort to listen and try to reproduce how it sounds.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Lunasa
"However, I do believe that the best way to learn and play this music is to make the effort to listen and try to reproduce how it sounds."
This is the bottom line!
Regarding access to top class players - like me, many years ago, I did not know who the top class payers were, so how are novices to know, at least initially, despite their clear advantage over me with such access over the web?
Passing of time, experience, interaction with players with more talent and experience, exposure to great music, played by great musicians will surely help all learners improve and learn to identify who to listen to more.
This will help target who should be listened to - but should not limit the listener to just these players - many lesser talented musicians will still bring something to the table of knowledge - respect of the music itself, knowledge of past musicians, knowledge of managing maintenance of your instrument, knowledge of the best players to listen to, etc, - we can learn from anyone!
I have a daughter with special needs (Down's Syndrome) - I have learned so much from her - most notably patience!
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by Feargal French
Re: Lunasa
That you're a cynic Mr Gill. is beyond doubt, you poor thing.as there is no cure. Unless you want to be cured Being jaded has a remedy though.....you could haul yourself off to a lake side shore and wile away the hours fishing instead of doggedly fielding all the posts that arrive at The Session that don't concur with you're entrenched mindset!
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by reel player
Re: Lunasa
Perhaps you are missing the point about LL and his perspective of ITM, look up the definition of 'phenomonon' as I did - and I quote.
something that is impressive or extraordinary.
a remarkable or exceptional person; prodigy; wonder.
Philosophy. a. an appearance or immediate object of awareness in experience.
Kantianism. a thing as it appears to and is constructed by the mind, as distinguished from a noumenon, or thing-in-itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1595–1605; < LL phaenomenon < Gk phainómenon appearance, n. use of neut. of phainómenos, prp. of phaínesthai to appear, pass. of phaínein to show]
—Synonyms 1. event, incident. 2, 3. marvel, miracle.
—Usage note As with other plurals of Latin or Greek origin, like media and criteria, there is a tendency to use the plural phenomena as a singular (This phenomena will not be seen again), but such use occurs infrequently in edited writing. The plural form phenomenas, though occasionally seen, has even less currency.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Like him or loathe him, he is there. Do as you would be done by...
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by john knoss
Re: Lunasa
Perhaps Gill, you lack the musical ability to attempt anything more advanced than to 'try to reproduce how the music sounds'. The ability to create one's own variations and nuances rather than merely mimicking a particular recording, I feel, is what separates the more advanced players from your 'novices'.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by Penfold
Re: Lunasa
That 'lack the ability...anything more advanced' is a bit of a cheap shot wouldn't you think?
To successfully 'create one's own variations and nuances' there has to be a complete understanding of the subject and it's language unless you're happy to sound plain alien and like you're missing the point.
To reach that point the way Michael is advocating (and he never mentioned 'mimicking a recording' ) is not exactly the worst one.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Lunasa
Oh so eloquently put Mr Feargal, and exactly the right sentiment.
I have been playing for a few years now, and must admit that i've been on the receiving end of a "you've got a recording, why do you need the dots", when I requested the notation to a tune that had got into my head whilst listening to a recording.
Before my post requesting a pointer to the notation to give me the "bones" of the tune, i'd been playing the tune as I saw it, alongside the "slow down" facility in media player, but couldn't make it sound right.
It may have been the inflection of the bowing that was throwing me out, or I may have had some of the notes wrong.
Either way, the ability to pick up a "standard" version of the tune, then to be worked upon, would have been a great help.
In the end, I mentioned the tune to a vastly more experienced player at a local session, who kindly went away and came back the next week, having got the bones of it himself, and helpfully then showed it to me.
You could say that this is the way the "tradition" should be, and that the exchange of tunes should come in this manner, but just to gain a certain amount of pleasure from having a version to play, I don't think that picking up a version off the "dots" or an ABC file is any bad thing.
Certainly, the "why do you need" comment put me in my place, stopped me from using this resource in one of it's most useful forms and, I suppose, re-inforced the impression of the poster of the reply as a person of craft and deep knowledge (possibly that was the idea!)
Succinctly put and accurately expressed for the toiling and hopefully improving lower end Feargal.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by riverrunner
Re: Lunasa
Penfold, I did say: it is not just a question of, the only way to play this music is to copy what you hear, you must also contribute something of your self to it also.
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim