for the most part, in first position it is pretty strait forward, but there are two notes, the "a" and the "e" that can be played on an open string or by the pinky finger.
In a set of notes like "b-g-a-g" (hope I got the ABCs right, I'm still learning that notation) it is possible to play that rocking between the D and A strings, and it is possible to play the b on the A string, then play the g-a-g on the D string using the 3rd and 4th fingers
so my question is, which way is more "fiddle like"?
and
what goes into your decision to use one fingering or the other?
I'm not trying to suck the life out of the music, but I'm only just learning the fiddle so the obvious is still new to me
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
In dance tunes, you have to be able to make passages like this sound right using the open string - so work on that for a good while. In fact string crossing, with more or less of a dirty sound, depending on the player, is part of the woof and weft - or soemthing like that - of a good dance tune.
Later on you can use the fourth finger to save crossing a string in some passages, but more often to achieve different effects - several nifty ones, in fact.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Normally open strings are used in fiddling because it's considered a desirable sound, but there's no reason you can't use your fourth finger instead in certain places if you really want to.
If you prefer to use the fourth finger to avoid crossing strings you can do that. But try it both ways and listen to the difference in the sound.
Keep in mind that frequent string crossings are a normal part of this music and not necessarily something to avoid. You may find that it doesn't sound quite right if you use the fourth finger and stay on the D string. That "rocking" between the strings is an important characteristic of the music.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
I agree with Screetch, sometimes it's the string crossing, the "rocking" that is the point of the passage, the interest. (It appears in baroque stuff, too)
Rock on!
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
using the fourth finger,is often advised to facilitate bowing.
using the fourth finger can also enable you to use unison double stopping.
when playing a third finger roll you have to use the little finger,
so the strengthening of the little finger is important,the more it is used th stronger it becomes.
the problem with the open string is that it is louder,when playing airs I have been advised by players like DenisMacmahon to use the little finger more.
I would use the open string ,but switch to the little finger if itmakes the bowing easier.
this is where tutors like Cranitch are useful,because he marks clearly where he thinks you should use the fourth finger,his book comes with audio too.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
dickens, that's a good point about strengthening the 4th finger for rolls. My third finger rolls suck.
maybe I should be doing some more strait technique work. I've been using tunes to work through technical issues, but in this case I might not be using the 4th finger enough to really strengthen it.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
I don't think your question was dull and lifeless at all, Nate.
I had classical as a child and traditional as an adult. On certain tunes I've found it easier to play using the pinky as opposed to the open string. Now that I've gotten comfortable and feeling marginally competant with playing traditional, I realize that I enjoy that cross string sound and have gone back and replaced the pinky in some tunes, just to get that rocking sound.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
try rolling as an exercise on the first g of the kesh jig.
or take the legacy jig,roll on the g, roll on the b ,
then roll on the high g,just as an exercise.
another useful exercise is to play the scale of g major,rolling on every not apart from the open strings,you can try trebling on them,or trilling,ababa,ef#ef#e.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Thanks, Dickens. I was sitting here thinking about how to practice the rolls on that G.
and considering organizing my practice a little differently. I think I need to spend some time at the start of practice working on the rolls and trills on thier own.
Thanks for suggesting the Kesh Jig to feature the roll on that G
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Nate, part of what you may be looking for is what fiddlers call "figure eight" bowing or "pedal" bowing. This is very common in Irish fiddling--a hallmark of the genre, in fact. You'll hear it in tunes like Drowsy Maggie, In the Tap Room, Bucks of Oranmore, and a thousand other reels.
Try the following bowing pattern and work on it till it becomes comfortable. Also listen for the sound other fiddlers get when they bow this sort of phrase. Eventually, you'll want to be able to get the lift into this phrase no matter how you bow it--this pattern is just one way, but an effective way.
Let's try it on the middle two strings. Put your index finger on both strings and keep it there, holding the E and B notes simultaneously.
The phrase you'll play is this: |E2 BE dEBE| (from the opening of Drowsy Maggie or In the Tap Room)
up bow on E2 (it's a quarter note--make it a long up bow)
down bow on B
up bow slur on EdE (that's using your ring finger to hold the d; but keep that index planted)
down bow on B
up bow on E
The tricky bit is that long up bow with three slurred notes, crossing from the 3rd string to the 2nd and back to the 3rd again. But once you get used to it, this makes a wonderful rocking motion for your bow hand (*not* the whole arm--just dip your bow hand a skooch to catch the 2nd string). Another way to think of this pattern is that *the only down bows happen on the B notes--everything else is a slurred up bow.*
To make a loop for practicing, add the next bar of In the Tap Room: |dBAF DEFD| Simply single bow each note, starting with a down bow on the high d. You'll end up on an up bow on the open low D--slur that up bow into the E2 of our pattern above and you're off and running. |:E2 BE dEBE|dBAF DFED:|
Take it super s-l-o-w at first until you're getting the up and down bows exactly as I've described them here. Then gradually bring it up to playing speed.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Thanks, Will, that sounds like a good exercise!
I'll work on that this evening, and the Tap Room is one of the reels I'm working on, so this is very welcome advice. Is this a variation on the 3-3-2 bowing pattern? My friend Warren made a real point with me to learn that particular bowing
I also think I'm getting the knack of this ABC notation.
its really pretty handy when there' s no staff paper around
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
there is a useful exercise for rollin in the cranitch book, which can be adapted for the third finger roll
pretend youare in jig time,play a g roll for a dotted crotchet [three quavers]then play f#ed,three quavers,[do this 4 times]
play the g roll again,then play aba three quavers[do this 4 times]
play the g roll again then play gab three quavers.[do this 4 times]
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
The figure eight pattern is just a really common way to get lift into those string crossings. Every decent Irish fiddler I've ever heard uses it. Basically, it's just a "Georgia Shuffle" (one 1/8 note down bow, slur three 1/8 notes on an up bow, repeat ad nauseum) applied to string crossings, with the down bows on the back beats.
Eventually, you want to bow these phrases every which way: 3-3-2, single bows, etc. And get lift from *all* of them.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
matt cranitch advises,playing the opening bars of drowsy maggie thus
eb down slur,ebe,up slur, b e two seperates,triplet eee, first two notes seperate last e slurred down into next b.e seperate up,a down ,slur up f#df#.
nothing wrong with wills method,but just a different way again.
in o neills green book
.its e down,bedebe all slurred up then e down crotchet,and b e a f#d f#all slurred up,different again,but really nice.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
3 3 2,is sometimes three seperate,three slurred,two seperate,and sometimes three slurred, three slurred, two seperate,but like all patterns, if it used exclusively becomes predictable.
a slurred three up or a slurred pair up or even a slurred five up is very useful,to bring in a down bow using more length of the bow to give you emphasis.
this is what is happenning in the first three bars of Drowsy Maggie in Oneills 1001 green book.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Yes, Cranitch's bowing is also common for phrases like the opening of Drowsy Maggie--you want to be able to do all of these so the lift stays consistent no matter what your bow is doing.
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
The little finger thing is the harder, but worth attaining. There are times when you'll want to use one method--or the other, but learn to do both, it will serve you well.
Best to you !!
A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
I have a question about fingering choices.
for the most part, in first position it is pretty strait forward, but there are two notes, the "a" and the "e" that can be played on an open string or by the pinky finger.
In a set of notes like "b-g-a-g" (hope I got the ABCs right, I'm still learning that notation) it is possible to play that rocking between the D and A strings, and it is possible to play the b on the A string, then play the g-a-g on the D string using the 3rd and 4th fingers
so my question is, which way is more "fiddle like"?
and
what goes into your decision to use one fingering or the other?
I'm not trying to suck the life out of the music, but I'm only just learning the fiddle so the obvious is still new to me
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
you mean GAG ?.... using the open strings is typical in ITM,
I use what ever fingering comes naturally to me. I come at my fiddling from being a guitar/ mandolin picker, many years ago.
Good luck and enjoy the ride
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by jig
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
In dance tunes, you have to be able to make passages like this sound right using the open string - so work on that for a good while. In fact string crossing, with more or less of a dirty sound, depending on the player, is part of the woof and weft - or soemthing like that - of a good dance tune.
Later on you can use the fourth finger to save crossing a string in some passages, but more often to achieve different effects - several nifty ones, in fact.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Jeeves Tones
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
I'm probably wrong with the ABC notation. I literally just read about it yesterday.
I mean the G above middle C second line of the trable clef to the A second space in the treble clef
I see the same figure with F# - D - E -D on the top two strings, or the top of the treble clef
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
thanks Jeeves. That helps alot.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Normally open strings are used in fiddling because it's considered a desirable sound, but there's no reason you can't use your fourth finger instead in certain places if you really want to.
If you prefer to use the fourth finger to avoid crossing strings you can do that. But try it both ways and listen to the difference in the sound.
Keep in mind that frequent string crossings are a normal part of this music and not necessarily something to avoid. You may find that it doesn't sound quite right if you use the fourth finger and stay on the D string. That "rocking" between the strings is an important characteristic of the music.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Marklar
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Sorry Jeeves, cross-posted there.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Marklar
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
thanks, Screetch, I'm glad I asked.
My instinct was to try and stay on one string
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
I agree with Screetch, sometimes it's the string crossing, the "rocking" that is the point of the passage, the interest. (It appears in baroque stuff, too)
Rock on!
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by wyogal
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
so is there an actual violinistic term for this "rocking"?
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Actually there's a term for it in Baroque music if I remember right, but I can't remember what it is. I tried to look it up but couldn't find it.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Marklar
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
using the fourth finger,is often advised to facilitate bowing.
using the fourth finger can also enable you to use unison double stopping.
when playing a third finger roll you have to use the little finger,
so the strengthening of the little finger is important,the more it is used th stronger it becomes.
the problem with the open string is that it is louder,when playing airs I have been advised by players like DenisMacmahon to use the little finger more.
I would use the open string ,but switch to the little finger if itmakes the bowing easier.
this is where tutors like Cranitch are useful,because he marks clearly where he thinks you should use the fourth finger,his book comes with audio too.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
dickens, that's a good point about strengthening the 4th finger for rolls. My third finger rolls suck.
maybe I should be doing some more strait technique work. I've been using tunes to work through technical issues, but in this case I might not be using the 4th finger enough to really strengthen it.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
I don't think your question was dull and lifeless at all, Nate.
I had classical as a child and traditional as an adult. On certain tunes I've found it easier to play using the pinky as opposed to the open string. Now that I've gotten comfortable and feeling marginally competant with playing traditional, I realize that I enjoy that cross string sound and have gone back and replaced the pinky in some tunes, just to get that rocking sound.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
try rolling as an exercise on the first g of the kesh jig.
or take the legacy jig,roll on the g, roll on the b ,
then roll on the high g,just as an exercise.
another useful exercise is to play the scale of g major,rolling on every not apart from the open strings,you can try trebling on them,or trilling,ababa,ef#ef#e.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Thanks, Dickens. I was sitting here thinking about how to practice the rolls on that G.
and considering organizing my practice a little differently. I think I need to spend some time at the start of practice working on the rolls and trills on thier own.
Thanks for suggesting the Kesh Jig to feature the roll on that G
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Nate, part of what you may be looking for is what fiddlers call "figure eight" bowing or "pedal" bowing. This is very common in Irish fiddling--a hallmark of the genre, in fact. You'll hear it in tunes like Drowsy Maggie, In the Tap Room, Bucks of Oranmore, and a thousand other reels.
Try the following bowing pattern and work on it till it becomes comfortable. Also listen for the sound other fiddlers get when they bow this sort of phrase. Eventually, you'll want to be able to get the lift into this phrase no matter how you bow it--this pattern is just one way, but an effective way.
Let's try it on the middle two strings. Put your index finger on both strings and keep it there, holding the E and B notes simultaneously.
The phrase you'll play is this: |E2 BE dEBE| (from the opening of Drowsy Maggie or In the Tap Room)
up bow on E2 (it's a quarter note--make it a long up bow)
down bow on B
up bow slur on EdE (that's using your ring finger to hold the d; but keep that index planted)
down bow on B
up bow on E
The tricky bit is that long up bow with three slurred notes, crossing from the 3rd string to the 2nd and back to the 3rd again. But once you get used to it, this makes a wonderful rocking motion for your bow hand (*not* the whole arm--just dip your bow hand a skooch to catch the 2nd string). Another way to think of this pattern is that *the only down bows happen on the B notes--everything else is a slurred up bow.*
To make a loop for practicing, add the next bar of In the Tap Room: |dBAF DEFD| Simply single bow each note, starting with a down bow on the high d. You'll end up on an up bow on the open low D--slur that up bow into the E2 of our pattern above and you're off and running. |:E2 BE dEBE|dBAF DFED:|
Take it super s-l-o-w at first until you're getting the up and down bows exactly as I've described them here. Then gradually bring it up to playing speed.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Thanks, Will, that sounds like a good exercise!
I'll work on that this evening, and the Tap Room is one of the reels I'm working on, so this is very welcome advice. Is this a variation on the 3-3-2 bowing pattern? My friend Warren made a real point with me to learn that particular bowing
I also think I'm getting the knack of this ABC notation.
its really pretty handy when there' s no staff paper around
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
there is a useful exercise for rollin in the cranitch book, which can be adapted for the third finger roll
pretend youare in jig time,play a g roll for a dotted crotchet [three quavers]then play f#ed,three quavers,[do this 4 times]
play the g roll again,then play aba three quavers[do this 4 times]
play the g roll again then play gab three quavers.[do this 4 times]
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
The figure eight pattern is just a really common way to get lift into those string crossings. Every decent Irish fiddler I've ever heard uses it. Basically, it's just a "Georgia Shuffle" (one 1/8 note down bow, slur three 1/8 notes on an up bow, repeat ad nauseum) applied to string crossings, with the down bows on the back beats.
Eventually, you want to bow these phrases every which way: 3-3-2, single bows, etc. And get lift from *all* of them.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
matt cranitch advises,playing the opening bars of drowsy maggie thus
eb down slur,ebe,up slur, b e two seperates,triplet eee, first two notes seperate last e slurred down into next b.e seperate up,a down ,slur up f#df#.
nothing wrong with wills method,but just a different way again.
in o neills green book
.its e down,bedebe all slurred up then e down crotchet,and b e a f#d f#all slurred up,different again,but really nice.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
And here I was thinking the Georgia Shuffle was just the way we walk around here.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
3 3 2,is sometimes three seperate,three slurred,two seperate,and sometimes three slurred, three slurred, two seperate,but like all patterns, if it used exclusively becomes predictable.
a slurred three up or a slurred pair up or even a slurred five up is very useful,to bring in a down bow using more length of the bow to give you emphasis.
this is what is happenning in the first three bars of Drowsy Maggie in Oneills 1001 green book.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Yes, Cranitch's bowing is also common for phrases like the opening of Drowsy Maggie--you want to be able to do all of these so the lift stays consistent no matter what your bow is doing.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
This is interesting stuff!
I looked at Drowsey Maggie (I don't know this one) and I would have never in a million years tried to bow that ebe in a single up bow.
I'll definitely look at this more tonight
I noticed that there is a similar figure in the Morning Dew, but on the top two string instead of the middle two. Work this kind of bowing there, too?
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Nate, yes, exactly the same sort of phrase. It's a *very* common motif in Irish and Scottish reels.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
Thanks Will, and thank you too dickens
so much for watching the NBA finals tonight
...I think I just found something better to do with this evening
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: A dull and lifeless question about fingering...
The little finger thing is the harder, but worth attaining. There are times when you'll want to use one method--or the other, but learn to do both, it will serve you well.
Best to you !!
# Posted on June 24th 2008 by hauke