So, there I was, last night ... pulling the petals off twelve large heads of elder flowers, preparatory to making this year's batch of elderflower champagne. And I got thinking ... [ I know, never a good idea ...]
I do loads of things like this, lots of stuff from my garden, lots of country things. Like making ash key pickles - great on pizza as a very British, seventeenth century substitute for capers - and golden crab apple jelly from my huge annual crop of Golden Hornet crabs.
All this stuff is very trad. Totally in the 'folk' tradition. Funny the way my mind works - then I thought, well, there's lots of stuff that happens in sessions, all over the place, that's good, solid trad alright, but not ITM. Recent thread came to mind ... and then I remembered someone hereabouts complaining at me (!) for playing some tunes *because* they were 'not Irish'. He said they were Scottish. Someone else in the session said, no, they're Shetland, aren't they? Actually, they were tunes that are firmly in the tradition, that were written by a Dubliner, and that I learnt from the composer.
But wtf does it matter what it is, anyway? Why are people so precious about it? Sometimes it even seems to happen in Ireland, though less so, and never to me (so far). Are folks just insecure about their 'hobby'? Perhaps that's the problem - it's not a hobby in my mind - it's just music. Necessary. Like breathing. Can't get precious about breathing.
Aren't chasps the things you tie around your trousers to keep off the cactus spines as you ride through the desert ?
Does hoeing do any good ? Like the Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn ? Or was that a euphimism ?
While you're hoeing, I'm off to watch Australia -v- Ireland in the rugby test about to kick off. Ireland haven't won here for 29 years, so I guess that makes it an Australian tradition.
Who knows, Ireland might get lucky, but hey it's a hard row to hoe altogether.
Fair play to you that you can do all those "trad" rural things. Many people are born brought up and still live in an urban environment where such traditions are lost. Or are there suh things as urban traditions? Irish music sessions in London pubs may be thought of as one. Discuss.
Hey, do you make cider Benhall? I'm working my way through a few gallons I made last autumn. Some of it has a bit of a sharp bite but you don't notice that after a glass or two!
It's flat though more or less - but that's real traditional - flat cider, like that 'real beer' stuff you drink over in England. If I could get my hands on those old Bulmers cider flagons with the screw lids and rubber washers, I'd be away. They held a quart as I recall.
Unfortunately, there ain't so many apples on the trees this year.
"Gather them young, and boil them in three or four Waters to extract the Bitterness; and when they feel tender, prepare a Syrup of sharp White-Wine Vinegar, Sugar and a little Water. Then boil them on a very quick Fire, and they will become of a green Colour, fit to be potted as soon as cold."
John Evelyn's "Acetaria, a Discourse of Sallets", 1699.
You have to catch the ash keys EXACTLY right - this year I missed them, because they were ready on a Tuesday, when I had no time, and by Saturday, when I did have time, they were past the useable stage. Still, I've got some from last year, and they mature beautifully. Yummm ...
I haven't made cider, or Perry even, which is stupid, really, as I live in an old cider mill, with all the old equipment (not really in useable state though). But I do have about 7 (I lost count) old perry pear trees, of different varieties, which produce hundreds of pounds of fruit every year, which, I'm sorry to say, mainly goes to waste. (They come at a time of year when there's so much *other* produce to deal with.)
I've been busy picking elderflowers too, so far I've got 8 gallons of elderflower wine bubbling away. I think this sort of trad hobby does tie in with playing trad music.
"potatoes" ~ come on, it's not like I'm going to be aable to guess, what variety?
They may not be acceptable in this environment. I mean, they could be those puffy French things, or those poof wee furz knobs, or worse ~ purple...almost as bad as playing an old time Canadian jig amongst a group of Irish old timers...
I want some fo that elderflower wine. You should try adding a stick of wormwood with blossoms to it...
I think people are so "precious" because the music is so intertwined with a sense of identity. I think that it really affects the music, as you can see from your own experience.
Perhaps look up the history of the terms reel and jig in the Fiddlers companion (someone provide a link) and then ask them what they think!
Ahhh, and another joy to bubble away ~ sima! I haven't made a good ol' elderflower champs or ginger beer in ages. You're making me feel guilty, and we haven't a decent garden here either. The guilt grows. I only manage the occassional native tree, an odd black mulberry now and then, and have finally succeeded in naturalizing wild garlic and strawberries, and loads of herbs. We are confined to a small strip of earth on the North end of this house, mostly in shade. For some reason we've also naturalized yellow poppies and they are everywhere, and the shade doesn't seem to bother them at all... Currently it's all yellow and purple, the poppies, sages and lavenders... The poppies bloom for a long time, some yellow popping open all summer and through the Autumn too, and with global warming at other odd times as well, all year round lately... Lavenders, some varieties being better than others, if chosen wisely, can also be a nice flavouring...
I love elderflowers, and the berries too... Hey, does anybody want mystery tomoto plants? I've even got the mother of them all, the little pea sized ones that started it all off... They are marvelous, concentrated...
martin ~ people are sadly more fond of the fiction than the facts... Those precious fantasies have done a slew of ill with regards to music and dance and puppy dog tales...
Yes, I'd love some of those "mother of them all" tomatoes. Send 'em on down!
The taties are King Edwards (can't compain at them), Pink Fir Apples ('spose you'd call them poncy) and, I think, two other varieties that I can't remember - stupid of me, really, 'cos I'd like to know so that, if they're good, I can grow 'em again next year.
Meanwhile, I've totally lost track of which tomatoes are which. Which is a pain, because some of them should go outside, and some in the greenhouse, and I don't know which now.
I know all about that sense of identity thing, Martin. I don't particularly think about it personally, being more wrapped up in the music. although, what *does* get to me is the tunes that really mean something because of something personal - to do with who I learnt them off, where I was, when etc Tunes like Old Tipperary, The Houlichan Jig and Farrel O'Gara.
Do you people of the North harvest any kind of wild plants?
People around here like to seek wild asparagus (I know it's a tune), mushrooms and 'madroños' (madrones?) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Arbutus_sp._fruit.jpg
Other than plants, people also like to 'hunt' snails, but herself has classified it as a forbidden activity.
Here in the tropics folks have all sort of fruit trees in their yards. Some friend always has fresh oranges, grapefruit, tangerines, avocados, something. "Here, these fell off my tree!" Score.
I have friends who do English country dance in addition to the ceilis and sessions with us, and tunes bleed over. It's also obvious when you regularly play tunes with non-Irish geographic names like The Flowers of Edinburgh or The Mouth of the Tobique. We even have the the Old Timey and Bluegrassers go off once in a while, for a set or two. Or at least until I get back from the bathroom.
And is your 'madroños' the fruit of the Arbutus or Strawberry Tree? (Highly prized by the Romans.)
We harvest lots of wild plants - wild garlic, elderflowers and ash keys (as already stated), bilberries, blackberries, wild gooseberries, raspberries, wild strawberries (mmm ...) sloes, rose hips, haws, wild mushrooms (when we can find them) hazlenuts (assuming that the squirrels haven't got to them all). Some people harvest nettles for wine, elderberries, wild damsons, and lots and lots more. Even, on occasion, the wild mountain thyme.
I have apple trees, apricots, pears , passion fruit , chinese lanterns.nesperos,orange and lemon.and a new strawberry guava. Is that the same tree you are on about? my neighbours grow a great little fruit' peara-melon, papaya , mango,orange, grapefruit grapes, cheremoia, avocado,other forms of guava, and a load of others stuff I dont have names for!
We get 2 crops of apples a year. the trees can be flowering and still bearing fruit!! Amazing climate. Sub-tropical. And no i dont mean in county Clare
This thread just reminded me we have to go pick strawberries this weekend for jam. we don't have enough of them growing in our tiny patch of garden (we get them one-by-one and eat them that way, warm from the sun), but we're close enough to some farms that let you pick your own, and then we spend days making jam.
'People of the North' are, from my point of view, most of you
Yes, madroño is the fruit of arbutus. Didn't know they were highly prized by the Romans. I used to harvest blackberries when I lived in Galicia, but they aren't very common where I live now.
We also harvest a few herbs (thyme, rosemary), and olives which we cure with brine, garlic and rosemary. A friend of mine also harvests hops, for his home brew.
Learnt a lot of vocabulary in this thread, god bless Linnaeus...
Forgive me for dragging music back into this, but I am no gardener, and benhall's comment about some tunes being allegedly "not Irish" reminded me of a quip I have been using lately:
Well, it's Irish music *now* (i.e., not by birth, but rather by adoption)
Disclaimer: I am not Irish by birth or residence, and I have only just started learning a few things about The Music. But in my simple mind, here's how I see it:
Many generations ago, Irish people (in their wisdom) decided to respect and support their local musicians, and a tradition was born. These musicians not only wrote their own tunes, but also adopted tunes from other places--strathspeys, polkas, mazurkas, etc.--because they, being dedicated and passionate about their art, felt those strange new tunes were worth adopting. Others agreed, and voila! It's Irish music now.
And that process--the adoption of worthy tunes by dedicated and passionate artists--goes on today, as part of a living tradition. "Irish traditional music"--music not necessarily composed in Ireland, but music cherished by people who know and support the tradition--is going strong not because of some vague magical quality of one particular patch of dirt on the Earth, or some innate musical superiority of people who were born there, but rather because generations of musicians--some Irish, others not--have dedicated themselves to making it so.
But never mind all that. I just play a tune because I like it, really. And it's more fun if other people know it too, so I tend to learn tunes that get played at sessions, regardless of their pedigree. All right, then, back to your rutabagas or whatever....
The Romans revered the Arbutus as a symbol of infinty and of life. This was because of the tree's habit of having leaves, flowers and ripe fruit on the tree at the same time. Go to the Solfatara near Naples and you will find a grove of Arbutus trees. Arbutus trees were originally planted there, in that mystical place, by the Romans - at least according to some. I don't suppose they're the original trees, but there they are to this day. Perhaps they're the descendants of the trees the Romans revered.
I always thought it's a beautiful tree because of what you mention, having green leaves, white flowers, yellow inmature fruits and red ripe fruits all at the same tree. BTW, the Madrid's emblem is 'el oso y el madroño', the bear and the Arbutus: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Oso_madro%C3%B1o_madrid.jpg
Benhall - much respect to you, a grower and cultivator of food stuffs and traditions. I regretfully, am a full fledged city-slicker who couldn't tell the difference between rutabaga and a radish unless it was labeled as such in the market. Yet I still enjoy learning about this stuff on your thread, just as I enjoy knowing from where the tunes originated. It may seem pedantic to others, but knowing a bit about the tune region, the composer, and the tradition gives me a bit of insight and historical perspective. Just one more thing for me to enjoy about this music.
Oh, you're dead right there, JNE. History, origin, the *story*. All hugely important. What I can't be doing with is this thing you find just every now and then, but unfortunately, everywhere, where origin (or whatever) determines *status*. I'm talking tunes here. Strangely, I don't have as strong a feeling about people.
Anyway, got lots of tomatoes done. More to do tomorrow. Probably try to plant the chillies, cucumbers and courgettes as well. Celeriac, cabbage and leeks will have to wait til next weekend. Then there's last year's celeriac to dig up and make into soup (SO's job) - she say "like, that's the only thing I'll have done". I dunno, no gratitude, I make her a nice barbecue and what does she do? Moan, that's what. (Now she says I'm painting an unfair picture of her. Sheesh, eh?)
Right so, Oldstrings. As I understand it, the tomato market is being strangely poisoned by some mysterious Filipino man named Sal Manilla or some such.
Alright, enough with the generic names. What chillies, cucumbers, courgettes, celeriac, cabbage and leeks??? Especially, what chillies and leeks? You have me a little disappointed, as why would anyone in their right mind grow King Edwards, the general fare in the big supermarkets? There are just so many other great potatoes out there that don't reach those shelves... Next time you're in Eire see if you can chase up some seeds for the wild leeks there, over on the West Coast and Isles...
Potatoes, those that were known in the 1800s are alas no more. They lacked blight resistance...
If we were really on a purist kick we'd have to give up things like potatoes, tomotoes and all those other damned foreign imports...
We're making strawberry-rhubarb pie tomorrow, under the influence of strawberry daquiris... The strawberries are these luscious Scottish ones... I've also been enjoying some wild ones...
My family's just got 3 acres and my mum's been told she can do whatever she likes with it so we're planting an orchard! It's going to be great - we're going to grow Kea Plums and all sorts!
The thing is, a lot of "traditional" sort of things are just as demanding and obsession-forming as ITM, making it hard for - anyway - the less energetic to concentrate hard on both. Horse or dog training, intensive gardening or cultivation, any of the more worthwhile arts or crafts, maintaining old vehicles - such things demand time and application and in some cases hard physical graft.
The British countryside can't fairly be described as dripping with succulent fruit and veg. I've got one of those books that says this or that weed "tastes like spinach", "is good in salads", etc., and they're all horrible! I thoroughly cooked and ate nettles once. They stung me in the mouth, at the other end, and at all places in between. These things are there for famines, is my attitude: I'll stick to blackberry and apple pie.
Fish and game the UK countryside does a lot better. No trout beats a wild one in good condition from a clean stream or lake.
It's not that big - just a regular country garden.
The chillies are Prairie Fire, Tepin and Pinocchio's Nose. Don't know what variety of celeriac. The leeks this year are Musselburgh, 'cos we couldn't find our usual sort, which I can't in any case remember the name of.
Tomatoes include Gardener's Delight (my all-time favourite), Ildi, Yellow Punch, Brandywine, Sungold, Sungella, Green Grape and Black Russian (I suspect I may have forgotten a few).
Can't remember what variety of cucumbers or leeks. Sorry.
And those horrible American crayfish have turfed out the nice native ones in these parts. Same as with the squirrels, eh? I blame George Bush. No, on second thoughts I blame Bill Gates.
Here's a horror story, in my book, as far as 'traditions' go. I haven't needed a new pie plate in ages, but this weekend I did, so we headed out expecting it would be no problem at all. Right now all we've got in decent shape are a load of tart and flan dishes. We spent a good part of yesterday walking and looking and couldn't find a pie dish ~ not in any of our major supermarkets here ~ Booth's, Sainsbury's, Morrison's, ASDA, Tesco's ~ and we tried some little shops too. NOTHING!!! Nobody had a pie dish for sale. Doesn't anybody make pies anymore? When we got home we did manage to find a slew available online. We did find dishes for meat pies, but no regular pie dishes. What is this world coming to?
The result of this disappointment is that in the end we made a crumble/crunch/crisp instead, rhubarb and strawberries as mentioned before, but we decided to grate in some orange zest ~ and WOW! What an addition, no juice, just orange zest and some fresh ground nutmeg. It's lovely. I now need to set aside some for the lovely Irish friend who provided us with the fresh rhubarb, one of the local characters and dancers hereabouts. He practices being miserable, so maybe this will raise a smile, if for only a moment...
On the root of all tomoatoes, the first time I came across it was by working backwards over a few years, using seeds from tomatoes we'd grown and eventually getting this lovely pea sized fruit. Since then we've found out more, and then discovered you could buy the seed. We've even seen it for sale in the shops, though pricey compared to your usual tomatoes.
Now back to the 'tradition' we usually cover on this website. I started wandering if something would happen like with tomotoes to this music. If we took one of these convoluted weird new things being regularly composed under various influences, and showing amongst the more regular fair, and we passed it on, by ear, down a chain and over time, would it revert to something more regular, fitting the usual fare of this tradition. So we'd take something off kilter and give it to someone, just once through. They'd then need to go away and play it for awhile. Then they'd pass it on in similar fashion. And then, maybe after it had passed through say half a dozen ears and hands ~ we'd arrange someway to hear the final result. Would it revert to something more at ease with the history of this tradition ~ say a 32 bar jig, AABB, and with more agreement in it than disagreement? Just an idea...
dave and tooty - That's bad news about signal crayfish in the Wear. Our duty is plainly to eat as many of them as we can. What a genius we Brits have had for unleashing precisely the most catastrophic species imaginable on our surroundings, at home and afield.
We haven't even touched on the plant species... The history of this is long, and those idiot Victorians were particularly famous for wanting the 'exotic', whatever the cost... One of the more recent animal introductions spreading and causing havoc is the New Zealand flat worm, which eats the useful earthworm... I wonder if there are similar invasive species in the music and at sessions? Is there an equivalent to the New Zealand flatworm in a session near you? Maybe someone with an accordion?
Which George Bush do you want to blame the American crayfish on benhall.1? George H.W. Bush (George senior) or his son, George W. Bush? Come to think of it, you are welcome to blame in on Bill Gates also, so far as I am concerned.
And ceol, I've already mentioned one Victorian import that blights my paddock - the wretched Japanese Knotweed. No sooner have you knocked it down in one place, but it springs up annoyingly somewhere else. Hmmm ...
And the thing about flatworms is that the harm they do is because they destroy the native earthworms that do so much good for the soil. But guess what? The native British black beetle LOVES to eat flatworms! Bring on that bulldog spirit, eh? What?
btw, is it me? Or has anyone else had the vaguest suspicion that there may be the odd sub-text or two around here?
I had a short spell doing work for a particular 'trust', which included trying to keep such things at bay, Knotweed and Balsam amongst them, and that awful stuff that clogs up the canals... At least it can be composted, but the poor birds carry it with them from one waterway to another...
Did you catch that show on the tele illustrating what would happen if suddenly we, mankind, were no more? It was a kick, nature taking over. But they missed some of the research necessary to make it more real, like these plants... I particularly loved the moggies populating the shells of multistory buildings...and the escaped zoo animals... YEE HA!!! Where are you Doctor Strangelove?
I saw that programme. Some of the doomy effects were a bit tedious, but essentially it was very interesting and so were the insights of experienced engineers, etc. I am glad our less likeable monuments are not going to last forever. But it did not go into continuing effects of pollution, waste dumping and such.
That too Nicholas, that too... There was a lot missed. One of the other things would of course be the break down of underground burials and the casings within, of nuclear waste, and not forgetting all that which is not underground...
Does anyone else like to splice in a bit of the music while gardening?- the iPod in the nettles- that kind of thing. Makes weeding a pleasure- well, almost.
benhall.1, you are equally welcome to blame the American crayfish on Bill Clinton also (besides both George Bushes). If Hillary Clinton succeeds in becoming President or Vice President this year, you may blame it on her as well.
Hey, let's put the blame full square where it is deserved. The American crayfish was brought over here to be farmed for restaurants... We did it to ourselves, as has usually been the case...
I just remembered the other flower I love as a seasoning for wine ~ May Flower (not Hawthorne, a herb)... It is a white blossom, but I can't remember the scientific name for it. It adds a lovely hint of flavour, like elderflowers... I think it is a Germanic tradition to add it to white wine for flavouring...
Ceolachan, I am so disappointed (he said sarcastically) to read that we can't blame American crayfish on various politicians.
However, you have reminded me of the joke, "We have met the enemy, and he is us". A variation on this idea would be the suggestion that if you want to look at your own worst enemy, you should stand in front of a mirror and look it in.
Australia has much more to complain of than we do in this respect. Mind you, they did do it to themselves. Take the appalling cycle of deforestation (to make more grazing), dust bowl, prickly pear (introduced to stabilise the soil), grassland made un-grazeable by too much prickly pear, gypsy moth (British species introduced to control the prickly pear but which which wiped it out), dust bowl (much bigger than before).
Do you think introducing non-native music around the world might have a similar - though cultural, rather than physical - effect?
ben, the amount of work evident from those comments that would be required to bring you up to speed and up to date makes me just shake my head wondering where one would start with you!
Since you seem to be sourcing some type of school years rote learning trivia, here is one perhaps to help broaden the mind:
Australia is some 32 times the land size of the United Kingdom. Does that help? Now - how many times could Herefordshire fit into England??? First hand up gets a gold star on your forehead.
How the mad cows there these days? Can you safely eat a hamburger yet?
The British introduced hereford cattle to Australia (back when it was safe thankfully), they or their minions also introduced the inappropriate farming practices and pests you refer to.
Much money, time and research has been given by Australians over the last century in trying to reverse the affects of those shortsighted methods.
Well, that's interesting. All of my above post was from memory. And I'd got it originally because I was interested in the moths - an interest in lepidoptera - so I thought I was sure I was right. However, now that DD has called me on it, i've looked it up. And it does indeed look as if my version of it is entirely wrong.
Several million cane toads crossing the road,
several million cane toads hopping,
Run over several hundred and what have you got?
Several million cane toads crossing the road...
Several million mice running all over hell,
several million mice dribbling p*ss,
Poison and thousand and what hav eyou got?
Several million mice running all over hell...
Does it really matter who started it? If we dwell on the past we usually neglect the present and the future...at our own peril...
"Prickly pear plants brought into Australia with the First Fleet to start a cochineal dye Industries for the British Government." ~ ain't it always the case, the damned insects are the root cause of it all. They will inherit the earth. They even prosper in Tchernobyl... Cricket music!!!
I hate to tell you this, but cane toads and rodents were also species introduced by people who should have known better but didn't bother to ask or study the situation first.
This land had never been trodden on by any cloven hoof animal until they were introduced. Although the land is old and fragile, it was soft and permeable until then. It quickly got pounded into a hard surface once those sorts of animals were introduced.
Who started it, ceol, I guess only really matters I suppose when the blame is sought to be put onto the wrong people.
Actually, I don't care who was 'to blame'. As far as I'm concerned, We were. With a very big 'W' and meaning 'mankind'. Everything else is tribalism, and I'm just not interested.
I agree benhall - who cares who is to blame. The fact is its all of us - Humans are the worst thing to ever happen to this planet and we are soon going to pay for our mistakes big time.
On a brighter note - I am going to try and be semi self sufficient (as much as one can be in the big smoke) by growning an organic fruit and veg patch out the back. I already have the passionfruits going like made - such fun to eat what you grown and tastes so much better too
I've read reports that growing produce in the soils in the big smoke can be health hazard because of the concentrations of lead in the soil from car emissions in particular over the last century.
I tested soil acidity in my yard in inner Sydney one time and the reading was off the gauge.
That maybe be so but I just read a report that said if everyone grew at least some of their own food we could cut down on 25% of the worlds green house emissions. Also the stuff that they put on vegs from the supermarket are just as bad if not worse than lead....they put retardant on potatos so that they dont sprout which can alter dna. Disgusting.
Yeah, I know I did, DD. Only because, in my ignorance caused by my faulty memory, I thought it was. But it doesn't matter to me - *people* did it, at any rate.
And bb, thanks for bringing us full circle on this one. You make me feel even better about the stuff I grow in my own garden. I still haven't quite finished the onions I harvested last August/September. My SO just made the last of last year's celeriac into soup, I can just about find the odd clove of last year's garlic in the middle of the dried up bits, and there's the odd spud or two left as well.
And last night, I bottled the elderflower wine. Wonder if any of it will explode this year? One year, one bottle exploded so much, all I could find of it was the bottle-top, which had completely embedded itself in the ceiling. There was no sign whatever of the rest of the bottle. It's lively stuff, my elderflower champagne.
Oh my god - cancel the gin order. I want some of your elderflower champagne!
And Celeriac - thats great - they cost like 10 bucks for one over here, so expensive. I'm going to plant that now. In truthfulness I like preteneding to have a garden, I dream about it, but really its a couple of carrots, some oregano and a passionfruit vine...it'll get there one day;)
I've retreated back here, to this thread I started as a nice, rural idyll of a thread. The elderflower champagne is already starting to ferment nicely in the bottles. And in two weeks time, or more, on a hot summer's afternoon, my SO and I will be sipping it from long glasses in which will be floating 3 large ice cubes and 5, perfectly blue, borage flower stars.
With any luck the bikers that were on vacation last year and stopped in at our session will be back this year. They came from Kentucky and had a lovely home-made apple moonshine in a flask, which they were happy to share with all of us. We still remember them, their libations and loud Harleys fondly.
You're welcome, benhall.1.
I hope you enjoy the fruits of your labors in your garden. Unlike my seventy-nine year old father, who is an expert gardener, I usually manage to kill plants instead of growing them.
Also, I am allergic to more than just onions and I would mention what else I am allergic to but we are supposed to be discussing music here instead of allergies.
Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
So, there I was, last night ... pulling the petals off twelve large heads of elder flowers, preparatory to making this year's batch of elderflower champagne. And I got thinking ... [ I know, never a good idea ...]
I do loads of things like this, lots of stuff from my garden, lots of country things. Like making ash key pickles - great on pizza as a very British, seventeenth century substitute for capers - and golden crab apple jelly from my huge annual crop of Golden Hornet crabs.
All this stuff is very trad. Totally in the 'folk' tradition. Funny the way my mind works - then I thought, well, there's lots of stuff that happens in sessions, all over the place, that's good, solid trad alright, but not ITM. Recent thread came to mind ... and then I remembered someone hereabouts complaining at me (!) for playing some tunes *because* they were 'not Irish'. He said they were Scottish. Someone else in the session said, no, they're Shetland, aren't they? Actually, they were tunes that are firmly in the tradition, that were written by a Dubliner, and that I learnt from the composer.
But wtf does it matter what it is, anyway? Why are people so precious about it? Sometimes it even seems to happen in Ireland, though less so, and never to me (so far). Are folks just insecure about their 'hobby'? Perhaps that's the problem - it's not a hobby in my mind - it's just music. Necessary. Like breathing. Can't get precious about breathing.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Ash key pickles - that's a new one on me!
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Yeah they're great!
Oh, btw, I'm off to hoe my potatoes. Work away, chasps, and I'll be back later ...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Aren't chasps the things you tie around your trousers to keep off the cactus spines as you ride through the desert ?
Does hoeing do any good ? Like the Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn ? Or was that a euphimism ?
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Actually, in answer to the original question, it's just that some people are pedants without having all the essential information.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
While you're hoeing, I'm off to watch Australia -v- Ireland in the rugby test about to kick off. Ireland haven't won here for 29 years, so I guess that makes it an Australian tradition.
Who knows, Ireland might get lucky, but hey it's a hard row to hoe altogether.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Fair play to you that you can do all those "trad" rural things. Many people are born brought up and still live in an urban environment where such traditions are lost. Or are there suh things as urban traditions? Irish music sessions in London pubs may be thought of as one. Discuss.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
so how do you make ash key pickle ?
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Hey, do you make cider Benhall? I'm working my way through a few gallons I made last autumn. Some of it has a bit of a sharp bite but you don't notice that after a glass or two!
It's flat though more or less - but that's real traditional - flat cider, like that 'real beer' stuff you drink over in England. If I could get my hands on those old Bulmers cider flagons with the screw lids and rubber washers, I'd be away. They held a quart as I recall.
Unfortunately, there ain't so many apples on the trees this year.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
"Gather them young, and boil them in three or four Waters to extract the Bitterness; and when they feel tender, prepare a Syrup of sharp White-Wine Vinegar, Sugar and a little Water. Then boil them on a very quick Fire, and they will become of a green Colour, fit to be potted as soon as cold."
John Evelyn's "Acetaria, a Discourse of Sallets", 1699.
You have to catch the ash keys EXACTLY right - this year I missed them, because they were ready on a Tuesday, when I had no time, and by Saturday, when I did have time, they were past the useable stage. Still, I've got some from last year, and they mature beautifully. Yummm ...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I haven't made cider, or Perry even, which is stupid, really, as I live in an old cider mill, with all the old equipment (not really in useable state though). But I do have about 7 (I lost count) old perry pear trees, of different varieties, which produce hundreds of pounds of fruit every year, which, I'm sorry to say, mainly goes to waste. (They come at a time of year when there's so much *other* produce to deal with.)
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I've been busy picking elderflowers too, so far I've got 8 gallons of elderflower wine bubbling away. I think this sort of trad hobby does tie in with playing trad music.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Yeah, it does seem to, doesn't it? Thing is, and I freely admit I'm probably being stupid, I can't really see why ...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Just in case you need to know...
Australia beat Ireland 18 to 12. That makes it 30 years in a row, I believe. (Bit of a poke in the eye isn't it.)
Oh, by the way, New Zealand just flogged England 37 to 20 or so.
Nice to see the tradition being upheld.
Cheers.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
"potatoes" ~ come on, it's not like I'm going to be aable to guess, what variety?
They may not be acceptable in this environment. I mean, they could be those puffy French things, or those poof wee furz knobs, or worse ~ purple...almost as bad as playing an old time Canadian jig amongst a group of Irish old timers...
I want some fo that elderflower wine. You should try adding a stick of wormwood with blossoms to it...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Come on, stop talking about it and get out there and hoe those rows, you blokes.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Hey, benhall.1
I think people are so "precious" because the music is so intertwined with a sense of identity. I think that it really affects the music, as you can see from your own experience.
Perhaps look up the history of the terms reel and jig in the Fiddlers companion (someone provide a link) and then ask them what they think!
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by martin t
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Ahhh, and another joy to bubble away ~ sima! I haven't made a good ol' elderflower champs or ginger beer in ages. You're making me feel guilty, and we haven't a decent garden here either. The guilt grows. I only manage the occassional native tree, an odd black mulberry now and then, and have finally succeeded in naturalizing wild garlic and strawberries, and loads of herbs. We are confined to a small strip of earth on the North end of this house, mostly in shade. For some reason we've also naturalized yellow poppies and they are everywhere, and the shade doesn't seem to bother them at all... Currently it's all yellow and purple, the poppies, sages and lavenders... The poppies bloom for a long time, some yellow popping open all summer and through the Autumn too, and with global warming at other odd times as well, all year round lately... Lavenders, some varieties being better than others, if chosen wisely, can also be a nice flavouring...
I love elderflowers, and the berries too... Hey, does anybody want mystery tomoto plants? I've even got the mother of them all, the little pea sized ones that started it all off... They are marvelous, concentrated...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
martin ~ people are sadly more fond of the fiction than the facts... Those precious fantasies have done a slew of ill with regards to music and dance and puppy dog tales...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Yes, I'd love some of those "mother of them all" tomatoes. Send 'em on down!
The taties are King Edwards (can't compain at them), Pink Fir Apples ('spose you'd call them poncy) and, I think, two other varieties that I can't remember - stupid of me, really, 'cos I'd like to know so that, if they're good, I can grow 'em again next year.
Meanwhile, I've totally lost track of which tomatoes are which. Which is a pain, because some of them should go outside, and some in the greenhouse, and I don't know which now.
I know all about that sense of identity thing, Martin. I don't particularly think about it personally, being more wrapped up in the music. although, what *does* get to me is the tunes that really mean something because of something personal - to do with who I learnt them off, where I was, when etc Tunes like Old Tipperary, The Houlichan Jig and Farrel O'Gara.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Bugger. I think I'm derailing my own thread. Never mind, re-potting tomatoes this afternoon.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Do you people of the North harvest any kind of wild plants?
People around here like to seek wild asparagus (I know it's a tune), mushrooms and 'madroños' (madrones?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Arbutus_sp._fruit.jpg
Other than plants, people also like to 'hunt' snails, but herself has classified it as a forbidden activity.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Here in the tropics folks have all sort of fruit trees in their yards. Some friend always has fresh oranges, grapefruit, tangerines, avocados, something. "Here, these fell off my tree!" Score.
I have friends who do English country dance in addition to the ceilis and sessions with us, and tunes bleed over. It's also obvious when you regularly play tunes with non-Irish geographic names like The Flowers of Edinburgh or The Mouth of the Tobique. We even have the the Old Timey and Bluegrassers go off once in a while, for a set or two. Or at least until I get back from the bathroom.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
"People of the North"? Is that me?
And is your 'madroños' the fruit of the Arbutus or Strawberry Tree? (Highly prized by the Romans.)
We harvest lots of wild plants - wild garlic, elderflowers and ash keys (as already stated), bilberries, blackberries, wild gooseberries, raspberries, wild strawberries (mmm ...) sloes, rose hips, haws, wild mushrooms (when we can find them) hazlenuts (assuming that the squirrels haven't got to them all). Some people harvest nettles for wine, elderberries, wild damsons, and lots and lots more. Even, on occasion, the wild mountain thyme.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
nettle soup... yummy
I have apple trees, apricots, pears , passion fruit , chinese lanterns.nesperos,orange and lemon.and a new strawberry guava. Is that the same tree you are on about? my neighbours grow a great little fruit' peara-melon, papaya , mango,orange, grapefruit grapes, cheremoia, avocado,other forms of guava, and a load of others stuff I dont have names for!
We get 2 crops of apples a year. the trees can be flowering and still bearing fruit!! Amazing climate. Sub-tropical. And no i dont mean in county Clare
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
This thread just reminded me we have to go pick strawberries this weekend for jam. we don't have enough of them growing in our tiny patch of garden (we get them one-by-one and eat them that way, warm from the sun), but we're close enough to some farms that let you pick your own, and then we spend days making jam.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Well. That's gone and poisoned the Japanese Knotweed. Now to pot up those tomatoes ...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
'People of the North' are, from my point of view, most of you
Yes, madroño is the fruit of arbutus. Didn't know they were highly prized by the Romans. I used to harvest blackberries when I lived in Galicia, but they aren't very common where I live now.
We also harvest a few herbs (thyme, rosemary), and olives which we cure with brine, garlic and rosemary. A friend of mine also harvests hops, for his home brew.
Learnt a lot of vocabulary in this thread, god bless Linnaeus...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Forgive me for dragging music back into this, but I am no gardener, and benhall's comment about some tunes being allegedly "not Irish" reminded me of a quip I have been using lately:
Well, it's Irish music *now* (i.e., not by birth, but rather by adoption)
Disclaimer: I am not Irish by birth or residence, and I have only just started learning a few things about The Music. But in my simple mind, here's how I see it:
Many generations ago, Irish people (in their wisdom) decided to respect and support their local musicians, and a tradition was born. These musicians not only wrote their own tunes, but also adopted tunes from other places--strathspeys, polkas, mazurkas, etc.--because they, being dedicated and passionate about their art, felt those strange new tunes were worth adopting. Others agreed, and voila! It's Irish music now.
And that process--the adoption of worthy tunes by dedicated and passionate artists--goes on today, as part of a living tradition. "Irish traditional music"--music not necessarily composed in Ireland, but music cherished by people who know and support the tradition--is going strong not because of some vague magical quality of one particular patch of dirt on the Earth, or some innate musical superiority of people who were born there, but rather because generations of musicians--some Irish, others not--have dedicated themselves to making it so.
But never mind all that. I just play a tune because I like it, really. And it's more fun if other people know it too, so I tend to learn tunes that get played at sessions, regardless of their pedigree. All right, then, back to your rutabagas or whatever....
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
The Romans revered the Arbutus as a symbol of infinty and of life. This was because of the tree's habit of having leaves, flowers and ripe fruit on the tree at the same time. Go to the Solfatara near Naples and you will find a grove of Arbutus trees. Arbutus trees were originally planted there, in that mystical place, by the Romans - at least according to some. I don't suppose they're the original trees, but there they are to this day. Perhaps they're the descendants of the trees the Romans revered.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I always thought it's a beautiful tree because of what you mention, having green leaves, white flowers, yellow inmature fruits and red ripe fruits all at the same tree. BTW, the Madrid's emblem is 'el oso y el madroño', the bear and the Arbutus:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Oso_madro%C3%B1o_madrid.jpg
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
immature
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Benhall - much respect to you, a grower and cultivator of food stuffs and traditions. I regretfully, am a full fledged city-slicker who couldn't tell the difference between rutabaga and a radish unless it was labeled as such in the market. Yet I still enjoy learning about this stuff on your thread, just as I enjoy knowing from where the tunes originated. It may seem pedantic to others, but knowing a bit about the tune region, the composer, and the tradition gives me a bit of insight and historical perspective. Just one more thing for me to enjoy about this music.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Oh, you're dead right there, JNE. History, origin, the *story*. All hugely important. What I can't be doing with is this thing you find just every now and then, but unfortunately, everywhere, where origin (or whatever) determines *status*. I'm talking tunes here. Strangely, I don't have as strong a feeling about people.
Anyway, got lots of tomatoes done. More to do tomorrow. Probably try to plant the chillies, cucumbers and courgettes as well. Celeriac, cabbage and leeks will have to wait til next weekend. Then there's last year's celeriac to dig up and make into soup (SO's job) - she say "like, that's the only thing I'll have done". I dunno, no gratitude, I make her a nice barbecue and what does she do? Moan, that's what. (Now she says I'm painting an unfair picture of her. Sheesh, eh?)
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
"couldn't tell the difference between rutabaga and a radish"
That doesn't matter, Jusa Nutter Eejit, as long as you stay away from your local tomatoes at the moment.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Right so, Oldstrings. As I understand it, the tomato market is being strangely poisoned by some mysterious Filipino man named Sal Manilla or some such.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Maybe an old joke should be changed to read, "Don't eat tomatoes at Sam & Ella's Restaurant"
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Alright, enough with the generic names. What chillies, cucumbers, courgettes, celeriac, cabbage and leeks??? Especially, what chillies and leeks? You have me a little disappointed, as why would anyone in their right mind grow King Edwards, the general fare in the big supermarkets? There are just so many other great potatoes out there that don't reach those shelves... Next time you're in Eire see if you can chase up some seeds for the wild leeks there, over on the West Coast and Isles...
Potatoes, those that were known in the 1800s are alas no more. They lacked blight resistance...
If we were really on a purist kick we'd have to give up things like potatoes, tomotoes and all those other damned foreign imports...
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
We're making strawberry-rhubarb pie tomorrow, under the influence of strawberry daquiris... The strawberries are these luscious Scottish ones... I've also been enjoying some wild ones...
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
How big is that garden of yours Ben? Should we be calling you 'sir' Ben?
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
My family's just got 3 acres and my mum's been told she can do whatever she likes with it so we're planting an orchard! It's going to be great - we're going to grow Kea Plums and all sorts!
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by An Kammneves
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Plums? Slivovice!
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I will drink to that--with some Shiner Bock.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
The thing is, a lot of "traditional" sort of things are just as demanding and obsession-forming as ITM, making it hard for - anyway - the less energetic to concentrate hard on both. Horse or dog training, intensive gardening or cultivation, any of the more worthwhile arts or crafts, maintaining old vehicles - such things demand time and application and in some cases hard physical graft.
The British countryside can't fairly be described as dripping with succulent fruit and veg. I've got one of those books that says this or that weed "tastes like spinach", "is good in salads", etc., and they're all horrible! I thoroughly cooked and ate nettles once. They stung me in the mouth, at the other end, and at all places in between. These things are there for famines, is my attitude: I'll stick to blackberry and apple pie.
Fish and game the UK countryside does a lot better. No trout beats a wild one in good condition from a clean stream or lake.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Nicholas
did you know there are Cray fish in the Wear ,those horrible american ones ,that have escaped captivity yours just for thye eating .
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
It's not that big - just a regular country garden.
The chillies are Prairie Fire, Tepin and Pinocchio's Nose. Don't know what variety of celeriac. The leeks this year are Musselburgh, 'cos we couldn't find our usual sort, which I can't in any case remember the name of.
Tomatoes include Gardener's Delight (my all-time favourite), Ildi, Yellow Punch, Brandywine, Sungold, Sungella, Green Grape and Black Russian (I suspect I may have forgotten a few).
Can't remember what variety of cucumbers or leeks. Sorry.
And those horrible American crayfish have turfed out the nice native ones in these parts. Same as with the squirrels, eh? I blame George Bush. No, on second thoughts I blame Bill Gates.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Hey, grey squirrels barbecue up nicely...
Here's a horror story, in my book, as far as 'traditions' go. I haven't needed a new pie plate in ages, but this weekend I did, so we headed out expecting it would be no problem at all. Right now all we've got in decent shape are a load of tart and flan dishes. We spent a good part of yesterday walking and looking and couldn't find a pie dish ~ not in any of our major supermarkets here ~ Booth's, Sainsbury's, Morrison's, ASDA, Tesco's ~ and we tried some little shops too. NOTHING!!! Nobody had a pie dish for sale. Doesn't anybody make pies anymore? When we got home we did manage to find a slew available online. We did find dishes for meat pies, but no regular pie dishes. What is this world coming to?
The result of this disappointment is that in the end we made a crumble/crunch/crisp instead, rhubarb and strawberries as mentioned before, but we decided to grate in some orange zest ~ and WOW! What an addition, no juice, just orange zest and some fresh ground nutmeg. It's lovely. I now need to set aside some for the lovely Irish friend who provided us with the fresh rhubarb, one of the local characters and dancers hereabouts. He practices being miserable, so maybe this will raise a smile, if for only a moment...
On the root of all tomoatoes, the first time I came across it was by working backwards over a few years, using seeds from tomatoes we'd grown and eventually getting this lovely pea sized fruit. Since then we've found out more, and then discovered you could buy the seed. We've even seen it for sale in the shops, though pricey compared to your usual tomatoes.
Now back to the 'tradition' we usually cover on this website. I started wandering if something would happen like with tomotoes to this music. If we took one of these convoluted weird new things being regularly composed under various influences, and showing amongst the more regular fair, and we passed it on, by ear, down a chain and over time, would it revert to something more regular, fitting the usual fare of this tradition. So we'd take something off kilter and give it to someone, just once through. They'd then need to go away and play it for awhile. Then they'd pass it on in similar fashion. And then, maybe after it had passed through say half a dozen ears and hands ~ we'd arrange someway to hear the final result. Would it revert to something more at ease with the history of this tradition ~ say a 32 bar jig, AABB, and with more agreement in it than disagreement? Just an idea...
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I doubt it. I suspect it would just come back more convoluted and twisted even than before.
And nobody would like it.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I think you're right, once a crap tune always a crap tune...
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
dave and tooty - That's bad news about signal crayfish in the Wear. Our duty is plainly to eat as many of them as we can. What a genius we Brits have had for unleashing precisely the most catastrophic species imaginable on our surroundings, at home and afield.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
We haven't even touched on the plant species... The history of this is long, and those idiot Victorians were particularly famous for wanting the 'exotic', whatever the cost... One of the more recent animal introductions spreading and causing havoc is the New Zealand flat worm, which eats the useful earthworm... I wonder if there are similar invasive species in the music and at sessions? Is there an equivalent to the New Zealand flatworm in a session near you? Maybe someone with an accordion?
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Which George Bush do you want to blame the American crayfish on benhall.1? George H.W. Bush (George senior) or his son, George W. Bush? Come to think of it, you are welcome to blame in on Bill Gates also, so far as I am concerned.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Both. But especially Bill Gates.
And ceol, I've already mentioned one Victorian import that blights my paddock - the wretched Japanese Knotweed. No sooner have you knocked it down in one place, but it springs up annoyingly somewhere else. Hmmm ...
And the thing about flatworms is that the harm they do is because they destroy the native earthworms that do so much good for the soil. But guess what? The native British black beetle LOVES to eat flatworms! Bring on that bulldog spirit, eh? What?
btw, is it me? Or has anyone else had the vaguest suspicion that there may be the odd sub-text or two around here?
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Heh, heh, heh...
(~ that's supposed to be an evil laugh...)
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
And what about Himalayan Balsam ~ AAAAAAAAAA!!!!
I had a short spell doing work for a particular 'trust', which included trying to keep such things at bay, Knotweed and Balsam amongst them, and that awful stuff that clogs up the canals... At least it can be composted, but the poor birds carry it with them from one waterway to another...
Did you catch that show on the tele illustrating what would happen if suddenly we, mankind, were no more? It was a kick, nature taking over. But they missed some of the research necessary to make it more real, like these plants... I particularly loved the moggies populating the shells of multistory buildings...and the escaped zoo animals... YEE HA!!! Where are you Doctor Strangelove?
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Oh yes, and how quickly manmade things decayed when we weren't around anymore to care for and service them...
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
But you can't get any Guernsey tomatos any more........
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Guernsey tomotoes? Why? Is that because of the current escalation in the price of petrol? Or are they just keeping the best for themselves?
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/work/channel_islands/guernsey/article_1.shtml
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I saw that programme. Some of the doomy effects were a bit tedious, but essentially it was very interesting and so were the insights of experienced engineers, etc. I am glad our less likeable monuments are not going to last forever. But it did not go into continuing effects of pollution, waste dumping and such.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
That too Nicholas, that too... There was a lot missed. One of the other things would of course be the break down of underground burials and the casings within, of nuclear waste, and not forgetting all that which is not underground...
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
This one has become a very common bird around here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Monk_Parakeet_on_short_grass.jpg
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Does anyone else like to splice in a bit of the music while gardening?- the iPod in the nettles- that kind of thing. Makes weeding a pleasure- well, almost.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by P-K
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
benhall.1, you are equally welcome to blame the American crayfish on Bill Clinton also (besides both George Bushes). If Hillary Clinton succeeds in becoming President or Vice President this year, you may blame it on her as well.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Hey, let's put the blame full square where it is deserved. The American crayfish was brought over here to be farmed for restaurants... We did it to ourselves, as has usually been the case...
I just remembered the other flower I love as a seasoning for wine ~ May Flower (not Hawthorne, a herb)... It is a white blossom, but I can't remember the scientific name for it. It adds a lovely hint of flavour, like elderflowers... I think it is a Germanic tradition to add it to white wine for flavouring...
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Lest we forget ~ mink!!!
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Ceolachan, I am so disappointed (he said sarcastically) to read that we can't blame American crayfish on various politicians.
However, you have reminded me of the joke, "We have met the enemy, and he is us". A variation on this idea would be the suggestion that if you want to look at your own worst enemy, you should stand in front of a mirror and look it in.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Australia has much more to complain of than we do in this respect. Mind you, they did do it to themselves. Take the appalling cycle of deforestation (to make more grazing), dust bowl, prickly pear (introduced to stabilise the soil), grassland made un-grazeable by too much prickly pear, gypsy moth (British species introduced to control the prickly pear but which which wiped it out), dust bowl (much bigger than before).
Do you think introducing non-native music around the world might have a similar - though cultural, rather than physical - effect?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
ben, the amount of work evident from those comments that would be required to bring you up to speed and up to date makes me just shake my head wondering where one would start with you!
Since you seem to be sourcing some type of school years rote learning trivia, here is one perhaps to help broaden the mind:
Australia is some 32 times the land size of the United Kingdom. Does that help? Now - how many times could Herefordshire fit into England??? First hand up gets a gold star on your forehead.
How the mad cows there these days? Can you safely eat a hamburger yet?
The British introduced hereford cattle to Australia (back when it was safe thankfully), they or their minions also introduced the inappropriate farming practices and pests you refer to.
Much money, time and research has been given by Australians over the last century in trying to reverse the affects of those shortsighted methods.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Well, that's interesting. All of my above post was from memory. And I'd got it originally because I was interested in the moths - an interest in lepidoptera - so I thought I was sure I was right. However, now that DD has called me on it, i've looked it up. And it does indeed look as if my version of it is entirely wrong.
Here goes:
http://www.northwestweeds.nsw.gov.au/chronology_of_events.htm
I even got the bloody species of moth wrong! Just goes to show - never rely on memory for anything.
[shakes head despairingly]
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
... on the positive side, my error has made me learn something I didn't know before.
Hmmm ... good ...
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Several million cane toads crossing the road,
several million cane toads hopping,
Run over several hundred and what have you got?
Several million cane toads crossing the road...
Several million mice running all over hell,
several million mice dribbling p*ss,
Poison and thousand and what hav eyou got?
Several million mice running all over hell...
Does it really matter who started it? If we dwell on the past we usually neglect the present and the future...at our own peril...
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
"Prickly pear plants brought into Australia with the First Fleet to start a cochineal dye Industries for the British Government." ~ ain't it always the case, the damned insects are the root cause of it all. They will inherit the earth. They even prosper in Tchernobyl... Cricket music!!!
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I hate to tell you this, but cane toads and rodents were also species introduced by people who should have known better but didn't bother to ask or study the situation first.
This land had never been trodden on by any cloven hoof animal until they were introduced. Although the land is old and fragile, it was soft and permeable until then. It quickly got pounded into a hard surface once those sorts of animals were introduced.
Who started it, ceol, I guess only really matters I suppose when the blame is sought to be put onto the wrong people.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Actually, I don't care who was 'to blame'. As far as I'm concerned, We were. With a very big 'W' and meaning 'mankind'. Everything else is tribalism, and I'm just not interested.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Admirable. I would tend to agree....
Except that you blamed Australians for it 9 posts up.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I agree benhall - who cares who is to blame. The fact is its all of us - Humans are the worst thing to ever happen to this planet and we are soon going to pay for our mistakes big time.
On a brighter note - I am going to try and be semi self sufficient (as much as one can be in the big smoke) by growning an organic fruit and veg patch out the back. I already have the passionfruits going like made - such fun to eat what you grown and tastes so much better too
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by bb
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Vhere is my organic gin?
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by bb
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
I've read reports that growing produce in the soils in the big smoke can be health hazard because of the concentrations of lead in the soil from car emissions in particular over the last century.
I tested soil acidity in my yard in inner Sydney one time and the reading was off the gauge.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
That maybe be so but I just read a report that said if everyone grew at least some of their own food we could cut down on 25% of the worlds green house emissions. Also the stuff that they put on vegs from the supermarket are just as bad if not worse than lead....they put retardant on potatos so that they dont sprout which can alter dna. Disgusting.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by bb
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Yeah, I know I did, DD. Only because, in my ignorance caused by my faulty memory, I thought it was. But it doesn't matter to me - *people* did it, at any rate.
And bb, thanks for bringing us full circle on this one. You make me feel even better about the stuff I grow in my own garden. I still haven't quite finished the onions I harvested last August/September. My SO just made the last of last year's celeriac into soup, I can just about find the odd clove of last year's garlic in the middle of the dried up bits, and there's the odd spud or two left as well.
And last night, I bottled the elderflower wine. Wonder if any of it will explode this year? One year, one bottle exploded so much, all I could find of it was the bottle-top, which had completely embedded itself in the ceiling. There was no sign whatever of the rest of the bottle. It's lively stuff, my elderflower champagne.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Oh my god - cancel the gin order. I want some of your elderflower champagne!
And Celeriac - thats great - they cost like 10 bucks for one over here, so expensive. I'm going to plant that now. In truthfulness I like preteneding to have a garden, I dream about it, but really its a couple of carrots, some oregano and a passionfruit vine...it'll get there one day;)
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by bb
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Enjoy your onions, benhall.1. I can't eat onions because I am allergic to them.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Thanks, fauxcelt.
I've retreated back here, to this thread I started as a nice, rural idyll of a thread. The elderflower champagne is already starting to ferment nicely in the bottles. And in two weeks time, or more, on a hot summer's afternoon, my SO and I will be sipping it from long glasses in which will be floating 3 large ice cubes and 5, perfectly blue, borage flower stars.
Ah!
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
Ben, you lucky dog, sounds delicious.
With any luck the bikers that were on vacation last year and stopped in at our session will be back this year. They came from Kentucky and had a lovely home-made apple moonshine in a flask, which they were happy to share with all of us. We still remember them, their libations and loud Harleys fondly.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Very trad ... but nothing to do with ITM
You're welcome, benhall.1.
I hope you enjoy the fruits of your labors in your garden. Unlike my seventy-nine year old father, who is an expert gardener, I usually manage to kill plants instead of growing them.
Also, I am allergic to more than just onions and I would mention what else I am allergic to but we are supposed to be discussing music here instead of allergies.
# Posted on June 18th 2008 by fauxcelt