I am wondering, ith the traditional sense, is music played without it's typical ornamentation or stylization ; the triplets in Cooley's reel, for example , can I just play quarter notes instead? I have 3 versions and each one has triplets, but they really slow me down. I am just wondering what most of you others do here. I merely want to know, as I don't want to be confronted by ediquet purists...
Ornamentation is optional and few people play any two tunes with exactly the same ornaments. The music doesn't lose its trad-ness just because you leave them out.
Ornamentation is not optional. That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site. Every player who has some idea what he/she is doing is using some form of ornamentation.
This is why I don't talk about "ornaments"--that term implies some frill hung on the tune like glass balls on a Christmas tree.
Instead, I like to think of all the twiddly bits as "articulations." Cuts, rolls, scratch triplets, smears, slides, etc. are all just different ways to articulate a note--changes in the attack, different ways to voice a note. And in this music, in nearly every case, they are primarily used to create lift and pulse and nyah--they are mostly about adding interest to the timing and rhythm of the tune.
So yes, there are lots of ways to play Cooley's without scratch triplets. Use rolls instead, or cuts, or even melodic variation. But do *something* to give the tune lift. And improve your triplets.
I meant ornamentation as in cuts, rolls, slides etc. and I'm pretty sure that's what the original poster was talking about. Not as in slurring, volume variations, style in general etc. I've seen a lot of great players who never used any of that first kind of ornamentation at all (mostly box and concertina players, but even fiddlers and others), so I definitely wouldn't say it's required.
I just realized that jjoyce plays mandolin (sorry I didn't look at your bio earlier). You'll want to get those triplets firing sooner or later, so do work on them. But in the meantime it does no harm to just double pick any quarter notes or play some other variation, especially if that lets you join in at a session. I've never heard a mandolin loud enough (playing melody) to detract from a session, even if it wasn't producing "pure drop."
mcdevicabe, so you are saying that Micheal russel didnt know what he was doing? Of course ornaments are optional, what ornaments, where and if are entirely up to the players discretion. How on earth could it be otherwise? Is there some form of trad police that wanders abut fining people who dont use ornaments? ''Sorry sir you missed the triplet there on the turn, I have to fine you under regulation 615, that will be 25 euro.''
Ever heard of regional variation? personal style? What matters above all is lift, drive, rhythm, inspiration, joy, heart, soul.
Sure we all use or aim to use the tools in our 'bag' but this is folk music, its open to all who wish to pick up an instrument and learn a few tunes. There is no requirement that you have to ornament, or play a certain setting, or learn to read music, or learn by ear. You are entirely free to play as you choose.
Fair enough some sessions may have self important ego tripers who will criticise you for not playing in a fashion they consider 'correct' but there will be as many who are happy you enjoy the music, will help and inspire you .
As far as your question goes, playing the simple notes well will allow the better players to ornament without you gettinhg under their feet.
Its far better to play a tune simply and well than with all the ornaments in the world and with no rhythm drive and lift.
It seems that there is a drive to standardisation using particular regional styles as models. viva la dfferance.
'so you are saying that Micheal russel [sic] didnt know what he was doing?'
Ofcourse Micho didn't play without ornamentation at all, he used triplets and his own form of roll as well as cuts etc. , sparingly but it was there when needed.
It would seem to be about what your minds ear hears. If you hear triplets, use triplets, if you hear a roll use a roll and so on. In my opinion, notation is a approximation, or bare bones of the melody. In the end, listen for the melody (tune), the part that sounds like singing. It is also important to note that what you hear is greatly influenced by what you have herd, so listen carefully to what other play.
Wow, that is a touchy subject. I am sorry if anybody got their toes whomped on. Thanks a zillion, you all answered my questions about the situation. Yes, I'm a mandolin player, but I don't go to sessions, I play in a duo with a guitar accompanyist, so it seems however I play it, nobody around here will care (NorthBay , CA, USA). I have lots and lots and lots to learn about how the Trad-ists view 'theire' music, but also I intend to keep my music just on the peripheral of the tradition. Around here, like I said, nobody would know. I love, love, love the *drive* and *lift* of the Celtic music, and seem to be a bit of a little steam roller with my mandolin, especially without the cuts, rolls, (can't do 'em very well anyway), and in some cases, a lot of triplets. Thanks again, much obliged.
os. Oh, and thanks for the link to the Cooley's reel without the triplets, that sort of says it all for me. It's not an integral part of the tune, apparently. I could check for more sources than just three next time.
There's a difference between choosing to leave something out, and always leaving it out because you're just plain incapable.
If you do the latter, and have the attitude that you don't need it to improve your understanding of the music, then nobody worth balls will want to play with you.
And in the post above, you could probably replace "Trad-ists" with "players who don't suck." Why not learn from them?
To question whether the style is an integral part of the music is such a profound misunderstanding of it. And you come here and say that nobody cares how you play so you don't care.
Silver bow is quite correct. But who knows? For example I sat in on a great session the other week with some amazing musicians. One of them, I noticed didnt roll or even triplet much. Chatting with him afterwards I queried him on this. He said' I know I should' to which I replied well I thought not, that his driving rhythmic style was great. Chatting on , laughingly he said rolls were meant to be real fast, and that his were so fast I couldnt even see them LOL.
Now theres no doubting this man. The point being that what matters is that you play the tunes cleanly with rhythm and drive, after this come the various ornaments and articulations rhythmic variations etc. Its a walk befor you can run thing.
Also, this is folk music , dance music. its not an elitist thing where you can only play after qualifying , matriculation[whatever that is] etc.
As musicians we provide a service, for other people to enjoy the music, dance to , etc That 'you' enjoy making music. That , to me , is essential, because if you dont enjoy it and the punters dont enjoy it , then what are you doing it for? If you are learning an instrument then of course you are not going to be as fluent on it as someone who has been playing years, just play the tune, enjoy yourself. Hopefully that should transmit to the people around you. Enjoy
In my humble opinion, it's MUCH -MUCH better to play the tune straight, in a swinging steady rythm, than to fill ornamentaition, triplets etc........that slows it down and make the tune fall apart.
When You have practiced some years I guess you can do the triplets, and play it faster. Hang On.....
I've found ornamentation easily (but not necessarily)
clogs up the rhythm in my own playing and in other peoples'.
I've found it instructive to listen to good concertina players. They
can't do much with ornaments so it has to be mostly
phrasing, melodic variation and the length of the
notes. It's been a good lesson for my own playing.
Cooley's reel
Cooley's reel
I am wondering, ith the traditional sense, is music played without it's typical ornamentation or stylization ; the triplets in Cooley's reel, for example , can I just play quarter notes instead? I have 3 versions and each one has triplets, but they really slow me down. I am just wondering what most of you others do here. I merely want to know, as I don't want to be confronted by ediquet purists...
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: Cooley's reel
prepare for the onslaught...........
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Cooley's reel
Ornamentation is optional and few people play any two tunes with exactly the same ornaments. The music doesn't lose its trad-ness just because you leave them out.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Cooley's reel
trip is trip ; not quavers
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Cooley's reel
This might help, or not:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Cooley's reel
Ornamentation is not optional. That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site. Every player who has some idea what he/she is doing is using some form of ornamentation.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by mcdevincabe
Re: Cooley's reel
This is why I don't talk about "ornaments"--that term implies some frill hung on the tune like glass balls on a Christmas tree.
Instead, I like to think of all the twiddly bits as "articulations." Cuts, rolls, scratch triplets, smears, slides, etc. are all just different ways to articulate a note--changes in the attack, different ways to voice a note. And in this music, in nearly every case, they are primarily used to create lift and pulse and nyah--they are mostly about adding interest to the timing and rhythm of the tune.
So yes, there are lots of ways to play Cooley's without scratch triplets. Use rolls instead, or cuts, or even melodic variation. But do *something* to give the tune lift. And improve your triplets.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Cooley's reel
I meant ornamentation as in cuts, rolls, slides etc. and I'm pretty sure that's what the original poster was talking about. Not as in slurring, volume variations, style in general etc. I've seen a lot of great players who never used any of that first kind of ornamentation at all (mostly box and concertina players, but even fiddlers and others), so I definitely wouldn't say it's required.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Cooley's reel
I just realized that jjoyce plays mandolin (sorry I didn't look at your bio earlier). You'll want to get those triplets firing sooner or later, so do work on them. But in the meantime it does no harm to just double pick any quarter notes or play some other variation, especially if that lets you join in at a session. I've never heard a mandolin loud enough (playing melody) to detract from a session, even if it wasn't producing "pure drop."
If in doubt, ask your session mates.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Cooley's reel
mcdevicabe, so you are saying that Micheal russel didnt know what he was doing? Of course ornaments are optional, what ornaments, where and if are entirely up to the players discretion. How on earth could it be otherwise? Is there some form of trad police that wanders abut fining people who dont use ornaments? ''Sorry sir you missed the triplet there on the turn, I have to fine you under regulation 615, that will be 25 euro.''
Ever heard of regional variation? personal style? What matters above all is lift, drive, rhythm, inspiration, joy, heart, soul.
Sure we all use or aim to use the tools in our 'bag' but this is folk music, its open to all who wish to pick up an instrument and learn a few tunes. There is no requirement that you have to ornament, or play a certain setting, or learn to read music, or learn by ear. You are entirely free to play as you choose.
Fair enough some sessions may have self important ego tripers who will criticise you for not playing in a fashion they consider 'correct' but there will be as many who are happy you enjoy the music, will help and inspire you .
As far as your question goes, playing the simple notes well will allow the better players to ornament without you gettinhg under their feet.
Its far better to play a tune simply and well than with all the ornaments in the world and with no rhythm drive and lift.
It seems that there is a drive to standardisation using particular regional styles as models. viva la dfferance.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Cooley's reel
As the man said "If you left out half of what you put in and put it half of what you left out"........
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Cooley's reel
'so you are saying that Micheal russel [sic] didnt know what he was doing?'
Ofcourse Micho didn't play without ornamentation at all, he used triplets and his own form of roll as well as cuts etc. , sparingly but it was there when needed.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Cooley's reel
not all the time . Check out the two flute tracks on his recording 'trad from Clare'.
I didnt say he played without ornamentation all the time, just that he did at times.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Cooley's reel
It would seem to be about what your minds ear hears. If you hear triplets, use triplets, if you hear a roll use a roll and so on. In my opinion, notation is a approximation, or bare bones of the melody. In the end, listen for the melody (tune), the part that sounds like singing. It is also important to note that what you hear is greatly influenced by what you have herd, so listen carefully to what other play.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by toumi
Re: Cooley's reel
Wow, that is a touchy subject. I am sorry if anybody got their toes whomped on. Thanks a zillion, you all answered my questions about the situation. Yes, I'm a mandolin player, but I don't go to sessions, I play in a duo with a guitar accompanyist, so it seems however I play it, nobody around here will care (NorthBay , CA, USA). I have lots and lots and lots to learn about how the Trad-ists view 'theire' music, but also I intend to keep my music just on the peripheral of the tradition. Around here, like I said, nobody would know. I love, love, love the *drive* and *lift* of the Celtic music, and seem to be a bit of a little steam roller with my mandolin, especially without the cuts, rolls, (can't do 'em very well anyway), and in some cases, a lot of triplets. Thanks again, much obliged.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: Cooley's reel
os. Oh, and thanks for the link to the Cooley's reel without the triplets, that sort of says it all for me. It's not an integral part of the tune, apparently. I could check for more sources than just three next time.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jjoyce
Re: Cooley's reel
There's a difference between choosing to leave something out, and always leaving it out because you're just plain incapable.
If you do the latter, and have the attitude that you don't need it to improve your understanding of the music, then nobody worth balls will want to play with you.
And in the post above, you could probably replace "Trad-ists" with "players who don't suck." Why not learn from them?
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by silver bow
Re: Cooley's reel
jj,
To question whether the style is an integral part of the music is such a profound misunderstanding of it. And you come here and say that nobody cares how you play so you don't care.
This is not a good start.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Cooley's reel
"I merely want to know, as I don't want to be confronted by ediquet purists..."
Keep one eye peeled for the spelling police too
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Cooley's reel
Silver bow is quite correct. But who knows? For example I sat in on a great session the other week with some amazing musicians. One of them, I noticed didnt roll or even triplet much. Chatting with him afterwards I queried him on this. He said' I know I should' to which I replied well I thought not, that his driving rhythmic style was great. Chatting on , laughingly he said rolls were meant to be real fast, and that his were so fast I couldnt even see them
LOL.
Now theres no doubting this man. The point being that what matters is that you play the tunes cleanly with rhythm and drive, after this come the various ornaments and articulations rhythmic variations etc. Its a walk befor you can run thing.
Also, this is folk music , dance music. its not an elitist thing where you can only play after qualifying , matriculation[whatever that is] etc.
As musicians we provide a service, for other people to enjoy the music, dance to , etc That 'you' enjoy making music. That , to me , is essential, because if you dont enjoy it and the punters dont enjoy it , then what are you doing it for? If you are learning an instrument then of course you are not going to be as fluent on it as someone who has been playing years, just play the tune, enjoy yourself. Hopefully that should transmit to the people around you. Enjoy
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by jig
Re: Cooley's reel
In my humble opinion, it's MUCH -MUCH better to play the tune straight, in a swinging steady rythm, than to fill ornamentaition, triplets etc........that slows it down and make the tune fall apart.
When You have practiced some years I guess you can do the triplets, and play it faster. Hang On.....
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ceili
Re: Cooley's reel
I've found ornamentation easily (but not necessarily)
clogs up the rhythm in my own playing and in other peoples'.
I've found it instructive to listen to good concertina players. They
can't do much with ornaments so it has to be mostly
phrasing, melodic variation and the length of the
notes. It's been a good lesson for my own playing.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Cooley's reel
Leaving space in the right spot can be just as good as a
twiddly bit.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Hup