I've been a jazz musician for 30 years. At a jazz session, you have to play the tunes the group plays, in thier keys, and in thier tempos. Seems pretty much the same for a traditional session.
but what about bowing patterns?
will everyone at a session be playing with the same bowing pattern like a string section of an orchestra?
I'm very new to traditional folk fiddling, so this is obviously a naive question, but how do you all work that out?
As you can see, while there is much that is similar in their bowing patterns, they are all three unique.
Seems like very few fiddle players play a tune the same way every time. Sometimes they vary the notes, sometimes the bowing, sometimes the ornaments. Many times, these variations change the way the bow goes.
Anyway, its not like playing in the string section of an orchestra where part of the discipline is to play the music as written, even down to the direction of the bow. I suppose that all meant something to the composer. Plus orchestra directors like to see the bows all going the same way - very symetrical. But for fiddle players in a session, that is not so important.
Of course, there are bowing patterns that every fiddle player will want learn but not everyone has to bow the same way all the time in every tune.
Nate, you wrote such a great thing in your profile---anyway, YouTube is an excellent resource for watching the way different fiddlers handle bowing---here's Tommy Peoples:
feardearg, I'm guessing what jig meant was synching to the pulse and nyah, not necessarily the same exact bowing. And that's what's revealed by the clip of the three Kelly's playing together--there are any number of bowings that will give you the pulse and nyah. What matters is the sound, less how you get it.
That said, there are some bowing ideas that most Irish fiddlers use. Slurring onto a strong beat, for instance, which often includes slurring "across the bar lines" (from the end of one bar onto the downbeat of the next bar). But it really doesn't matter whether those slurs happen on a down bow or up bow--you'll want to get the nyah either way.
As Kevin Burke likes to say, don't make bowing more complicated than it is. The bow does two things--it goes up; it goes down.
There is quite a bit of cohesion here for example.
When i say sync in It wouldnt work with a bunch of fiddlers all playing different bowing, but its possible to make an attempt at bowing together with another fiddler if you might want to....personal choice really.
If you think about it using two guitarist as an example, if they are playing completely different chords, patterns and strumming styles then it can be pretty chaotic. Not very popular with the tunesmiths! but if they can watch each other, sync in , then it can work ok.
There is a certain power in a whole bunch of people doing something in sync. Perhaps its not everyone's cup of tea, but its an option that can be used if you choose.
Ive said before here that if everyone just does their own thing ina session the music can suffer for it, become muddy.
I mean we are all playing the same tune right! [actually with settings being so diverse .... maybe not?] so a bit of awareness as to what other people are doing has got to be good eh? listening and responding.
Well Mr. Evans, I've *never* seen fiddlers in a session worry about synchronizing their bowing. What an odd notion--in 30 years of this music, I've never come across that before.
Backers synching their chords is more a necessity (or taking turns), but that's an entirely different ball of wax.
Wow, have you even watched the video clips you're posting? In both of them, the fiddlers bow differently from one another. Look closely and you'll see up bow and down bows side by side, not to mention slurring at the same time someone else is single bowing.
I was going to make a point about ceili bands in competition being very different from playing in a session (sessions being what this thread is specifically about). But there's no need to--even in ceili band competitions, great Irish trad fiddlers do NOT synch their bowing to one another.
of course they bow differently,at times, but you are ignoring the times when they clearly lift and bow in sync. I did not suggest everyone bows exactly the same, just that if you choose you can sync up ,At times they clearly bow as one look at 31 of the Allow, are you suggesting that is coincidence?
Yes, of course they'd play differently in a session. Do you really think a ceili band is like a session, or that a ceili band *competition* is like a session?!
Synching one down bow doesn't make the bowing synchronized. You're ignoring the bulk of their playing in favor of one starting stroke.
Jig, let's get something straight--you've posted clips of yourself mucking around on whistle and banjo on sound lantern. Shall we post that public link here? Why not reveal your chops to better back up your advice on this forum? I'd be happy to provide the link.
well you just said you change your bowing for sessions all the time - I think that's kind of a good exercise actually. I try to follow people's bowings when I'm a learning a tune - just for fun. I also loved the movie Single White Female - it's spooky
The OP was asking about set bowings where all bows move in the same direction all of the time. In classical playing, that is how it's supposed to be done and you're never supposed to be moving your bow in a direction that is different from the others in your section.
You can argue as long as you want to jig, but the fact is that the question has been answered and the answer is that bowings are not synchronized in fiddling. When fiddlers' bows sync up it's just happenstance. Only an idiot would put effort into making sure his bow is moving in the same direction as everyone else's. That has no bearing on the music at all.
Do you seriously think that those fiddlers are getting their bows in sync on purpose? Are you that dense?
For anyone who wonders about the source of the insights our jig offers, I've added a link to his sound lantern clips in my member profile. Just click on my screen name and scroll down to the bottom of my bio. FWIW, I've also included a clip of myself playing in a recent house session.
its easy to hide behind a whole bunch of musicians will, what about posting a link to you playing on your own. Im sure that session doesnt do you justice.
Do you seriously think that those fiddlers are'nt getting their bows in sync on purpose? Are you that dense? coincidence? ho ho ho.
As jim says do what you FEEL,. if you feel like you want to sync in with another fiddler, go for it.if not , go for it.
On a positive note... it was nice to see Richard, Amy, Dave and Pat in Will's clip. I'm guessing Eliot was the videographer. And there was the tell-tale sgn of someone picking the tune up-on-the-fly at the end when you can hear him say, "Wow... what WAS that tune?"
Jig, in case you missed it, the point is that your playing doesn't match your own crowing about it here. At least I *can* keep time and play with other people. And I'm not in the habit of sitting alone with a recorder going while I noodle at it. I play out--in sessions and the occasional gig. What little ever gets recorded, I'm surrounded by my friends and musician mates. Not because I can't hold my own, but because I *can.*
'Jig, in case you missed it, the point is that your playing doesn't match your own crowing about it here'
ouch...Harsh, but true.
I just heard the links myself.
Skip this at will...(again no pun). I don't want to make enemies here, with anyone - its just an observation.
I've been thinking this the whole time I've 'known' Jig and all his alias'. I've always had this image in my head of 'Jig', and alas, since hearing him play.. I'm feckin right.
***
I have a 50 something year old friend I play with occasionally. Its never really a session, cause he starts 90% of the tunes, and they always sound the same, no matter how many tunes he plays.
He sings a song, and that sounds the same as the last one. He recently released another album himself, 3'rd in 5 years. He sells them to tourists every week, and makes a small fortune. He WORKS hard at his music.
He started learning from Planxty and The Bothies in the 60's and still does they're versions of tunes to this day.Every week. While he mixes them in with the odd tune, though sometimes you wouldn't know its a different tune.
The thing is, is that he really thinks he's feckin deadly. He's a very average player. From listening to him, I'd imagine he uses CD's to get his tunes, and sometimes, gets the notes he doesn't know from the dots. You can hear it in his playing. He plays alone alot (especially when he is in sessions). He just doesn't listen.
. He does do one or two things Jig did quite a bit, on his recordings, such as delaying a note -shifting the phrasing a little. But he does it (like Jig) all over the place, so it becomes the tune, and the tune sounds .... well, shifted, or stunted, so there is no kind of rythmical flow. NONE.
If I was ever to say it to him, I think he'd be a little upset, and probably work on it ... a little....But he'd soon regress to believing what his mammy told him 40 years ago..."You're the best son, knock 'em dead", and forget everything again.
Where am I going with this?
This guy never really listens to the players around him. Never. He sees them as his back up musicians. He has a house in Clare, and like Jig, he could (and has many times has), sat in with any of the big heads, and from his own accounts they love his playing.
All in all, Jig, he reminds me of you. Especially his playing. Not his argumentative nature though. But the fact that he is so dead sure 100% that he is hot sh*t, when he just isn't.
Alas...What does make it all bearable, and what gets him 3 weekly gigs/ sessions (our understandings of the two would differ considerably) is that he is such a nice man. That's it. He is great craic. A gentleman. Buys drinks, asks everyone to start their own tunes. Smiles all the way through tunes etc.
Has a good head on him about stuff outside of the music etc.
In fact I enjoy going in to see him, and have a chat with him, and usually stay for a couple of tunes. I would consider him a good friend.
I'm hoping that in your real life persona, you are a nice fella too. You are popular around town, cause people think you are a good skin etc. I hope , I really hope that this is the case, cause your online persona does not fit this. Not at all.
You corrected and criticised other players here on their playing on a number of occasions. (you denied that though, which is a little scary). You shouldn't do this anymore. Its not fair, because people may get the wrong idea from you. You are not in a position to do this anymore, so please don't.
Good luck with your music, Try not to make it "work", and try not to think of it as a craft you've mastered over time. You haven't.
Do follow your own advice, that is - 'have fun' but open up a little and follow some of the advice you receive here. One thing being 'Listen'. Don't say you do, cause you don't. I can hear it.
Good luck.
Token bit, probably useless, jarred from my brain by Hugo's post:
My favorite teachers of any subject have been the ones who are humble and who remind me to never stop learning, because that's what they do, they never stop learning. It's what makes them such good teachers.
Speaking of teachers, you're the man, Jim, love all your You Tubing. "No Bow it just the way you FEEL > JUST LIKE JAZZ" Love it! Get in the groove, Daddy-O! Where's my beret? I got to grow my goatee back. Started getting silver so I lopped it off.
Could have said it with a bit more rhythm though. Started out a nice 12/8 then slipped a gear to 9/8 and ended up a 2/4.
Maybe change sessions, Hugo. LOL
yeah yeah whatever, you insist on making snide personal attacks, I think your comments are rather funny actually, you demonstrate your brilliance by posting a session where its not possible to hear you play. Then tell us how good you are, so I just answer, well prove it. I have uploaded a few rusty banjo tracks, and a couple of other rusty tracks, you can judge me on them if you want I really dont care. it rather sounds like you crowing to me. Lets actually here you play a few tunes eh?
And hugo, why not post some of your playing, I am definitely rusty on the samples i uploaded, but thats Ok ps My main gig is still as a backer
Jig - why post rusty stuff? It is just as easy to upload greatness.
I looked at CPT's clip again and it looks to me like the other musicians were hiding behind HIS playing.
My problem with you is not your playing. I am no Maestro myself. But some of the things you post are just wild and arrogant. You should be a learner on this site, like me. Don't try to be a lecturer for a while.
I hope Hugo is right. You might be a wonderful fellow. Sometimes one can get the wrong impression communicating electronically.
'And hugo, why not post some of your playing..'
I knew you were going to write that!
How I play is irrelevant. I don't post pages of bad advice, and name drop and give advice and...
I'm afraid its all a waste of time. Good bye Jig, and good luck.
I see my user name in one of Duijera Dubh's posts. I'm afraid I can't reply. I don't read anything he says. Sorry.
For those interested why/ why not..
I've been a non-musician for 30 years. At a jazz session, you have to play the tunes the group plays, in thier keys, and in thier tempos. Seems pretty much the same for a traditional session.
but what about rhythms?
will everyone at a session be playing in the same rythm like a string section of an orchestra?
I'm very new to bodhoran, so this is obviously a naive question, but how do you all work that out
Yes of course you have to play the tunes everyone else plays, but there is still plenty of room for improvisation. It's just that in diddley music the improvising comes in very short bursts rather than in the grand sweeps of Jazz. Varying your bowing is an example of this, that's why syncing bows is not a good idea, it takes away the variation.
But it's also vital to note that in a diddley session, the tune players are providing ALL the rhythm as well. The music is very dense and you have to respect that.
Name drop? fidel? are you confused? I have not dropped any names on this site, thank god. I dont post bad advice, its that simple. I post advice, much of which is agreed upon by the likes of ... oh about to name drop. well better not, he asked me not to quote him on this site , he doesnt want to be embroiled in all this 'nonesense' , likes to think hes got better things to do. .
Heres a quote from him.
'' I'm amazed that people can get so het up about
something that seems to have it's answer in basic common sense. Any
worthwhile sport, skill, study, trade, art has many aspects. Most
"greats" have it all but most people get good at certain facets and are
weak in others. The ones who excel are usually the ones that work on
the
weaknesses, keep the strenghts strong and at the same time keep
searching for valuable innovations. I know lots of players who "break
the rules" but I think they'd usually be better if they worked a bit
more on their sclaes etc. Most know it too, even if they won't admit it
- not all, but most.
I'm sure the controversy about dots, scales, metronomes etc is mostly
based in ignorance like most forms of prejudice. All my life I have
seen
trad. musicians looked down on by classical types and, vice versa, trad
people often shun the calssical guys. Often it's justified - nobody
wants to subject themselves to being sneered at by snobby ignorant
types but I think those attitudes and the resulting barriers are
weaker
now than when I was a child. I have met many classical players who
admire the trad 'fiddler' and many trad players appreciate the
classical skills. I don't understand the need for it to be one or
the
other - both can be great, both can be mediocre, just like jazzers,
bluegrass players and everyone else. My guess, even though I know
nothing about them, is that Bolivian choirs, Latvian trombonists and
whistlers from Mozambique are similar - some great, some not so great.
And I bet too that some practice with a metronome and some don't!
I heard a young basketball player who had just joined the same team as
Michael Jordan (who many regard as the "greatest ever") say that he was
really surprised to see Jordan practice so much- he was always first to
show up at training and the last to leave. He couldn't understand why
somebody that good needed to practice. It didn't seem to occur to the
youngster that Jordan was that good because he practised. My guess is
that he worked on his free throws, his long range shots, mid range,
under the basket shots, facing the basket, back to the basket. He
probably did strength training, stamina training, explosive bursts of
sprinting. It'd be ludicrous to think of his coach saying "just work on
shooting. Don't bother with the physical conditioning or anything else.
If you score more than the other guys you win, so just practice
scoring"
That's how I see the arguments going on The Session.
Just rest assured that he plays at the 'top of the tree' so to speak, and we get his name mentioned quite a lot on the session by fiddlers.
Well actually Kennedy, I asked him if I could quote him with out naming the source, which I have done. He remains a nameless fiddler who is highly rated. Thats enough surely? Ok I made a hint but thats all.... Do you still think that out of order?
He said he had a problem with it. He asked you not to quote him. Notice the request was not to quote him, and not to avoid attributing a quote to him. He said he didn't want to get caught up in the nonsense here, and who can blame him?
I have a problem with it because he was kind enough to take the time to personally answer a question from you, and then you dishonor his request to keep his comments off a public board. If he had wanted his thoughts and words to be discussed here, he would have posted them himself. I think it's quite disrespectful and you should admit you shouldn't have done it, and maybe even publically apologize in case he happens to read this thread (which I'm sure he won't---who would have the patience for it?).
'' I don't mind you quoting me informally ....''. Hes a fine fiddler and a gentleman We also happen to agree on a number of different issues which is the relevant point.
Hugo, . Its not bad advice ., its good advice. take it on board or not. metronomes, scales, technical drills. or perhaps you think its best to just play tunes? just practice scoring, go for it . Good luck , enjoy your music.
"quoting me informally" means in a private conversation, face to face with your mates down at the pub. NOT for all and sundry on a flame-ridden public message board. And I am 100% positive that if he knew you were forwarding his emails around and posting his words in public to defend your own views, he would be sorry he ever responded to you. Unfortunately for him in this case, he happens to be a nice person who respects other people and assumed the same from you.
I repeat, you should apologize. You were way out of line.
another session playing question
another session playing question
I've been a jazz musician for 30 years. At a jazz session, you have to play the tunes the group plays, in thier keys, and in thier tempos. Seems pretty much the same for a traditional session.
but what about bowing patterns?
will everyone at a session be playing with the same bowing pattern like a string section of an orchestra?
I'm very new to traditional folk fiddling, so this is obviously a naive question, but how do you all work that out?
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: another session playing question
Bowings are very individual. You'll rarely see fiddlers playing together with their bows moving in the same direction.
There aren't really any set bowing patterns. That's not to say that there's no wrong way to do the bowings, but there's more than one right way.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Marklar
Re: another session playing question
My approach is to watch another [better] player and try and sync in to some extent . Whether this might work for you and your fiddle I dont know.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Here's a link to a clip of John Kelly, and his sons John and James.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A
As you can see, while there is much that is similar in their bowing patterns, they are all three unique.
Seems like very few fiddle players play a tune the same way every time. Sometimes they vary the notes, sometimes the bowing, sometimes the ornaments. Many times, these variations change the way the bow goes.
Anyway, its not like playing in the string section of an orchestra where part of the discipline is to play the music as written, even down to the direction of the bow. I suppose that all meant something to the composer. Plus orchestra directors like to see the bows all going the same way - very symetrical. But for fiddle players in a session, that is not so important.
Of course, there are bowing patterns that every fiddle player will want learn but not everyone has to bow the same way all the time in every tune.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by John Culhane
Re: another session playing question
thank you. I was hoping that was the case.
I've been learning tunes by finding a recording and working out by ear. I have some fake books, but most of the tunes I like aren't in them.
you all have a wonderful resource here in your Tunes section BTW. I found sheet music for some tunes I've been working on.
But I wasn't learning the tunes with any particular bowing patterns, just my hackneyed version of what I heard
Then I got the bad feeling that I was making a problem for myself to correct later on by not learning a specific bowing
so again, thanks
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: another session playing question
Thanks, John, for that video
That really made it clear. You can see that they are not moving together like an orchestra section,
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: another session playing question
I wonder which fiddler Jig would try to sync with in that video supplied by John.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by feardearg
Re: another session playing question
Probably John Kelly as he would be seen as the "authority" figure.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by leoj
Re: another session playing question
Nate, you wrote such a great thing in your profile---anyway, YouTube is an excellent resource for watching the way different fiddlers handle bowing---here's Tommy Peoples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqFlS3gNMs&feature=related
and Paddy Canny and Frankie Gavin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBONRwNY77c
Do a search here for more YouTube clips, and you can also try the Comhaltas site, they have some great videos as well.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: another session playing question
feardearg, I'm guessing what jig meant was synching to the pulse and nyah, not necessarily the same exact bowing. And that's what's revealed by the clip of the three Kelly's playing together--there are any number of bowings that will give you the pulse and nyah. What matters is the sound, less how you get it.
That said, there are some bowing ideas that most Irish fiddlers use. Slurring onto a strong beat, for instance, which often includes slurring "across the bar lines" (from the end of one bar onto the downbeat of the next bar). But it really doesn't matter whether those slurs happen on a down bow or up bow--you'll want to get the nyah either way.
As Kevin Burke likes to say, don't make bowing more complicated than it is. The bow does two things--it goes up; it goes down.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_222_2_allow_ceiliband/
There is quite a bit of cohesion here for example.
When i say sync in It wouldnt work with a bunch of fiddlers all playing different bowing, but its possible to make an attempt at bowing together with another fiddler if you might want to....personal choice really.
If you think about it using two guitarist as an example, if they are playing completely different chords, patterns and strumming styles then it can be pretty chaotic. Not very popular with the tunesmiths! but if they can watch each other, sync in , then it can work ok.
There is a certain power in a whole bunch of people doing something in sync. Perhaps its not everyone's cup of tea, but its an option that can be used if you choose.
Ive said before here that if everyone just does their own thing ina session the music can suffer for it, become muddy.
] so a bit of awareness as to what other people are doing has got to be good eh? listening and responding.
I mean we are all playing the same tune right! [actually with settings being so diverse .... maybe not?
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by jig
Can eleven monkeys really type shakespeare?
I wonder about that - don't know if it's been sufficiently proven.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by airport
Re: another session playing question
here's an example of three great fiddlers all bowing very differently (it helps to watch it without the sound)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHNCbgP6CyM
and another:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uR1l169_mVA
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by airport
Re: another session playing question
Hmmm...seems I guessed wrong above.
Well Mr. Evans, I've *never* seen fiddlers in a session worry about synchronizing their bowing. What an odd notion--in 30 years of this music, I've never come across that before.
Backers synching their chords is more a necessity (or taking turns), but that's an entirely different ball of wax.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
Thats not my name will, .. people make so many assumptions built upon their own preconceived ideas.
Well their you go , you aint seen it all. check out;
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_233_2_the_innisfree_and_ceoltoiri_na_mainstreach_ceili_bands
dont you just love comhaltas...
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Wow, have you even watched the video clips you're posting? In both of them, the fiddlers bow differently from one another. Look closely and you'll see up bow and down bows side by side, not to mention slurring at the same time someone else is single bowing.
I was going to make a point about ceili bands in competition being very different from playing in a session (sessions being what this thread is specifically about). But there's no need to--even in ceili band competitions, great Irish trad fiddlers do NOT synch their bowing to one another.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
siamese twins don't count
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by airport
Re: another session playing question
oops sorry Will - yours is the sensible answer.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by airport
Re: another session playing question
of course they bow differently,at times, but you are ignoring the times when they clearly lift and bow in sync. I did not suggest everyone bows exactly the same, just that if you choose you can sync up ,At times they clearly bow as one look at 31 of the Allow, are you suggesting that is coincidence?
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
If those fiddlers were sitting in a session together do you think they would change their bowing because its a session?
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Yes, of course they'd play differently in a session. Do you really think a ceili band is like a session, or that a ceili band *competition* is like a session?!
Synching one down bow doesn't make the bowing synchronized. You're ignoring the bulk of their playing in favor of one starting stroke.
Jig, let's get something straight--you've posted clips of yourself mucking around on whistle and banjo on sound lantern. Shall we post that public link here? Why not reveal your chops to better back up your advice on this forum? I'd be happy to provide the link.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
well you just said you change your bowing for sessions all the time - I think that's kind of a good exercise actually. I try to follow people's bowings when I'm a learning a tune - just for fun. I also loved the movie Single White Female - it's spooky
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by airport
Re: another session playing question
oops, cross-posted again - sorry Will. why don't you let me handle this? I'm already insane.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by airport
Re: another session playing question
The OP was asking about set bowings where all bows move in the same direction all of the time. In classical playing, that is how it's supposed to be done and you're never supposed to be moving your bow in a direction that is different from the others in your section.
You can argue as long as you want to jig, but the fact is that the question has been answered and the answer is that bowings are not synchronized in fiddling. When fiddlers' bows sync up it's just happenstance. Only an idiot would put effort into making sure his bow is moving in the same direction as everyone else's. That has no bearing on the music at all.
Do you seriously think that those fiddlers are getting their bows in sync on purpose? Are you that dense?
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Marklar
Re: another session playing question
For anyone who wonders about the source of the insights our jig offers, I've added a link to his sound lantern clips in my member profile. Just click on my screen name and scroll down to the bottom of my bio. FWIW, I've also included a clip of myself playing in a recent house session.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
No Bow it just the way you FEEL>
JUST LIKE JAZZ- Jim,,,,
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: another session playing question
its easy to hide behind a whole bunch of musicians will, what about posting a link to you playing on your own. Im sure that session doesnt do you justice.
Do you seriously think that those fiddlers are'nt getting their bows in sync on purpose? Are you that dense? coincidence? ho ho ho.
As jim says do what you FEEL,. if you feel like you want to sync in with another fiddler, go for it.if not , go for it.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Yeah, CPT. That was hitting below the belt. I wish I had thought of it. Watching your clip, I also noticed the rifles on the wall, and...never mind.
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by feardearg
Re: another session playing question
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: another session playing question
Wow... the evil side of YouTube... YouTube Wars!
~~~
On a positive note... it was nice to see Richard, Amy, Dave and Pat in Will's clip. I'm guessing Eliot was the videographer. And there was the tell-tale sgn of someone picking the tune up-on-the-fly at the end when you can hear him say, "Wow... what WAS that tune?"
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: another session playing question
LOL, Jack, I think that was Dave picking up the tune on the fly. Yep, Eliot was behind the camera (one less flute for me to "hide behind"
).
That had to be the second or third day--we're all looking a little sleep deprived. Good times....
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
Jig, in case you missed it, the point is that your playing doesn't match your own crowing about it here. At least I *can* keep time and play with other people. And I'm not in the habit of sitting alone with a recorder going while I noodle at it. I play out--in sessions and the occasional gig. What little ever gets recorded, I'm surrounded by my friends and musician mates. Not because I can't hold my own, but because I *can.*
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
'Jig, in case you missed it, the point is that your playing doesn't match your own crowing about it here'
ouch...Harsh, but true.
I just heard the links myself.
Skip this at will...(again no pun). I don't want to make enemies here, with anyone - its just an observation.
I've been thinking this the whole time I've 'known' Jig and all his alias'. I've always had this image in my head of 'Jig', and alas, since hearing him play.. I'm feckin right.
***
I have a 50 something year old friend I play with occasionally. Its never really a session, cause he starts 90% of the tunes, and they always sound the same, no matter how many tunes he plays.
He sings a song, and that sounds the same as the last one. He recently released another album himself, 3'rd in 5 years. He sells them to tourists every week, and makes a small fortune. He WORKS hard at his music.
He started learning from Planxty and The Bothies in the 60's and still does they're versions of tunes to this day.Every week. While he mixes them in with the odd tune, though sometimes you wouldn't know its a different tune.
The thing is, is that he really thinks he's feckin deadly. He's a very average player. From listening to him, I'd imagine he uses CD's to get his tunes, and sometimes, gets the notes he doesn't know from the dots. You can hear it in his playing. He plays alone alot (especially when he is in sessions). He just doesn't listen.
. He does do one or two things Jig did quite a bit, on his recordings, such as delaying a note -shifting the phrasing a little. But he does it (like Jig) all over the place, so it becomes the tune, and the tune sounds .... well, shifted, or stunted, so there is no kind of rythmical flow. NONE.
If I was ever to say it to him, I think he'd be a little upset, and probably work on it ... a little....But he'd soon regress to believing what his mammy told him 40 years ago..."You're the best son, knock 'em dead", and forget everything again.
Where am I going with this?
This guy never really listens to the players around him. Never. He sees them as his back up musicians. He has a house in Clare, and like Jig, he could (and has many times has), sat in with any of the big heads, and from his own accounts they love his playing.
All in all, Jig, he reminds me of you. Especially his playing. Not his argumentative nature though. But the fact that he is so dead sure 100% that he is hot sh*t, when he just isn't.
Alas...What does make it all bearable, and what gets him 3 weekly gigs/ sessions (our understandings of the two would differ considerably) is that he is such a nice man. That's it. He is great craic. A gentleman. Buys drinks, asks everyone to start their own tunes. Smiles all the way through tunes etc.
Has a good head on him about stuff outside of the music etc.
In fact I enjoy going in to see him, and have a chat with him, and usually stay for a couple of tunes. I would consider him a good friend.
I'm hoping that in your real life persona, you are a nice fella too. You are popular around town, cause people think you are a good skin etc. I hope , I really hope that this is the case, cause your online persona does not fit this. Not at all.
You corrected and criticised other players here on their playing on a number of occasions. (you denied that though, which is a little scary). You shouldn't do this anymore. Its not fair, because people may get the wrong idea from you. You are not in a position to do this anymore, so please don't.
Good luck with your music, Try not to make it "work", and try not to think of it as a craft you've mastered over time. You haven't.
Do follow your own advice, that is - 'have fun' but open up a little and follow some of the advice you receive here. One thing being 'Listen'. Don't say you do, cause you don't. I can hear it.
Good luck.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: another session playing question
Token bit, probably useless, jarred from my brain by Hugo's post:
My favorite teachers of any subject have been the ones who are humble and who remind me to never stop learning, because that's what they do, they never stop learning. It's what makes them such good teachers.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: another session playing question
Speaking of teachers, you're the man, Jim, love all your You Tubing. "No Bow it just the way you FEEL > JUST LIKE JAZZ" Love it! Get in the groove, Daddy-O! Where's my beret? I got to grow my goatee back. Started getting silver so I lopped it off.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: another session playing question
Hugo, you've said what a lot of us here have been wanting to say for a long time. And you've said it perfectly. Thank you.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: another session playing question
Could have said it with a bit more rhythm though. Started out a nice 12/8 then slipped a gear to 9/8 and ended up a 2/4.
Maybe change sessions, Hugo. LOL
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: another session playing question
yeah yeah whatever, you insist on making snide personal attacks, I think your comments are rather funny actually, you demonstrate your brilliance by posting a session where its not possible to hear you play. Then tell us how good you are, so I just answer, well prove it. I have uploaded a few rusty banjo tracks, and a couple of other rusty tracks, you can judge me on them if you want I really dont care. it rather sounds like you crowing to me. Lets actually here you play a few tunes eh?
And hugo, why not post some of your playing, I am definitely rusty on the samples i uploaded, but thats Ok ps My main gig is still as a backer
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Hugo Chavez. Right. Dream on.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: another session playing question
Jig - why post rusty stuff? It is just as easy to upload greatness.
I looked at CPT's clip again and it looks to me like the other musicians were hiding behind HIS playing.
My problem with you is not your playing. I am no Maestro myself. But some of the things you post are just wild and arrogant. You should be a learner on this site, like me. Don't try to be a lecturer for a while.
I hope Hugo is right. You might be a wonderful fellow. Sometimes one can get the wrong impression communicating electronically.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by feardearg
Re: another session playing question
Like calling yourself Hugo Chavez maybe.
Oh dear, how class conscious.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: another session playing question
'And hugo, why not post some of your playing..'
I knew you were going to write that!
How I play is irrelevant. I don't post pages of bad advice, and name drop and give advice and...
I'm afraid its all a waste of time. Good bye Jig, and good luck.
I see my user name in one of Duijera Dubh's posts. I'm afraid I can't reply. I don't read anything he says. Sorry.
For those interested why/ why not..
see here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17223
and here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17795/comments#comment372235
Lunatic.
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: another session playing question
You don't read it, Hugo. Really?
You reply but don't read them. Ok, whatever you say, Fidel.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: another session playing question
I've been a non-musician for 30 years. At a jazz session, you have to play the tunes the group plays, in thier keys, and in thier tempos. Seems pretty much the same for a traditional session.
but what about rhythms?
will everyone at a session be playing in the same rythm like a string section of an orchestra?
I'm very new to bodhoran, so this is obviously a naive question, but how do you all work that out
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: another session playing question
Yes of course you have to play the tunes everyone else plays, but there is still plenty of room for improvisation. It's just that in diddley music the improvising comes in very short bursts rather than in the grand sweeps of Jazz. Varying your bowing is an example of this, that's why syncing bows is not a good idea, it takes away the variation.
But it's also vital to note that in a diddley session, the tune players are providing ALL the rhythm as well. The music is very dense and you have to respect that.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: another session playing question
Name drop? fidel? are you confused? I have not dropped any names on this site, thank god. I dont post bad advice, its that simple. I post advice, much of which is agreed upon by the likes of ... oh about to name drop. well better not, he asked me not to quote him on this site , he doesnt want to be embroiled in all this 'nonesense' , likes to think hes got better things to do. .
Heres a quote from him.
'' I'm amazed that people can get so het up about
something that seems to have it's answer in basic common sense. Any
worthwhile sport, skill, study, trade, art has many aspects. Most
"greats" have it all but most people get good at certain facets and are
weak in others. The ones who excel are usually the ones that work on
the
weaknesses, keep the strenghts strong and at the same time keep
searching for valuable innovations. I know lots of players who "break
the rules" but I think they'd usually be better if they worked a bit
more on their sclaes etc. Most know it too, even if they won't admit it
- not all, but most.
I'm sure the controversy about dots, scales, metronomes etc is mostly
based in ignorance like most forms of prejudice. All my life I have
seen
trad. musicians looked down on by classical types and, vice versa, trad
people often shun the calssical guys. Often it's justified - nobody
wants to subject themselves to being sneered at by snobby ignorant
types but I think those attitudes and the resulting barriers are
weaker
now than when I was a child. I have met many classical players who
admire the trad 'fiddler' and many trad players appreciate the
classical skills. I don't understand the need for it to be one or
the
other - both can be great, both can be mediocre, just like jazzers,
bluegrass players and everyone else. My guess, even though I know
nothing about them, is that Bolivian choirs, Latvian trombonists and
whistlers from Mozambique are similar - some great, some not so great.
And I bet too that some practice with a metronome and some don't!
I heard a young basketball player who had just joined the same team as
Michael Jordan (who many regard as the "greatest ever") say that he was
really surprised to see Jordan practice so much- he was always first to
show up at training and the last to leave. He couldn't understand why
somebody that good needed to practice. It didn't seem to occur to the
youngster that Jordan was that good because he practised. My guess is
that he worked on his free throws, his long range shots, mid range,
under the basket shots, facing the basket, back to the basket. He
probably did strength training, stamina training, explosive bursts of
sprinting. It'd be ludicrous to think of his coach saying "just work on
shooting. Don't bother with the physical conditioning or anything else.
If you score more than the other guys you win, so just practice
scoring"
That's how I see the arguments going on The Session.
Just rest assured that he plays at the 'top of the tree' so to speak, and we get his name mentioned quite a lot on the session by fiddlers.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Jig, he asked you not to quote him on this site, and then you go ahead and quote him anyway?
Not cool, I don't think he would appreciate that.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy
Re: another session playing question
Well actually Kennedy, I asked him if I could quote him with out naming the source, which I have done. He remains a nameless fiddler who is highly rated. Thats enough surely? Ok I made a hint but thats all.... Do you still think that out of order?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Yes I do.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy
Re: another session playing question
Why? If he has no problem with that then why do you?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
He said he had a problem with it. He asked you not to quote him. Notice the request was not to quote him, and not to avoid attributing a quote to him. He said he didn't want to get caught up in the nonsense here, and who can blame him?
I have a problem with it because he was kind enough to take the time to personally answer a question from you, and then you dishonor his request to keep his comments off a public board. If he had wanted his thoughts and words to be discussed here, he would have posted them himself. I think it's quite disrespectful and you should admit you shouldn't have done it, and maybe even publically apologize in case he happens to read this thread (which I'm sure he won't---who would have the patience for it?).
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy
Re: another session playing question
'' I don't mind you quoting me informally ....''. Hes a fine fiddler and a gentleman We also happen to agree on a number of different issues which is the relevant point.
Hugo, . Its not bad advice ., its good advice. take it on board or not. metronomes, scales, technical drills. or perhaps you think its best to just play tunes? just practice scoring, go for it . Good luck , enjoy your music.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by jig
Re: another session playing question
Just out of curiosity, jig, have you ever taken a lesson from this fine fiddler and gentleman?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: another session playing question
"quoting me informally" means in a private conversation, face to face with your mates down at the pub. NOT for all and sundry on a flame-ridden public message board. And I am 100% positive that if he knew you were forwarding his emails around and posting his words in public to defend your own views, he would be sorry he ever responded to you. Unfortunately for him in this case, he happens to be a nice person who respects other people and assumed the same from you.
I repeat, you should apologize. You were way out of line.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy
Re: another session playing question
Will, I suspect jig has never taken a fiddle lesson from anyone. Could be wrong, but I doubt it.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy