Here's my problem maybe someone can help...I got a guitar for my birthday last month and Ive spent at least 10 mins each day practicing. I have all the keys off to a tee (D,G,A) and felt I was ready to play with other musicians. I went to the local session and proceeded to back the musicians as I had presumed that this is what they would want. I got a little drunk and a little carried away as I was able to play all the tunes no problem. I felt great. At the end of the session one of the session leaders called me over which I thought was to invite me to more sessions etc...instead he became very agressive and while I do not wish to lower the content of this fine site I was told that 'the f***in' thing would be shoved up my **** if I came near the session again'. I also think that I was followed home from the session that night which really worried me..could I be in some sort of danger for playing the guitar?Please can anyone tell me if they have experienced anything like this before. PS is it always necessary to put a new string on when I break it or can I wait until the end of a set of tunes and then re-string?(Its just that it takes so long and I dont always have spares anyway. I just retune the other three or four and paly on)
i remember all too well.when i started i had a cheap guitar. it was blue, and black round the edge.the sound was fine but i had problems tuning it. sometimes its best to play on through the end if you break a string,but instead of strumming, id maybe turn it on its side and tap it like a bodhran with the back of the hand.never let the others in a session know that youve broken a string because youl get some dirty looks, and maybe a snide remark asking if you need a spare g string.This put me off for a while , but now that ive got a brand new tanglewood,i dont have the problem breaking strings.my advice would be to bite the bullet and buy a better guitar.some give you a free strap and tuner too.
Hello tradmikey. Backing up in a session is just that ... you provide support for the tunes, but the melody is the focus and the reason for being there... the most important part of backing up ANY music is listening... I have played guitar for over 30 years and it took me almost 3 years before I felt I could sit in with most people and back them up in a session without disrupting the tunes .
So I would say here's some pointers.
1. Work on listening so you can be aware of the pulses, chord changes and actual direction of the tune/melody.
2. Listen to recordings of other people backing up tunes and figure out what they are doing. (play along with those, it will really open your eyes)
3. Read the dozens of pages of advice already posted on this site about this subject.
4. If you can, learn some actual tunes (the melody) so you can play them on your guitar, then what's said above will make sense..
5. Did I say LISTEN??!
6. Find a slow / beginner's session if possible and go there and polish your backup chops... there are several in my area and probably is one in your area....
Good luck... and have fun... backing ITM is awesome when you get it right.....
Of course, lot of people who go to sessions have the spare time (especially after midnight when the session has come to an end) to surreptitiously follow guitarists home and frighten them.
What about minor keys, modes etc? It can get very annoying if you're playing a tune in A minor,(for instance), and a guitarist is thrashing along in A major.
"I got a guitar" "last month and Ive spent at least 10 mins each day practicing"
"I got a little drunk and a little carried away as I was able to play all the tunes no problem. I felt great."
If you're worried about being followed home from the session, take comfort in the fact that your guitar can be used as a quite effective weapon, as demonstrated by the legendary hero El Kabong:
Maybe simply do not get drunk when you try to play in sessions...
Other than that, practice, listen a lot to the music you want to learn, find another session where the leaders are more open and have better manners and patience, and be careful, listen carefully and only play what you are sure will sound good and be appropriate. Playing with others is a great experience so don't ruin it if you find a good place to do it.
Thank you for referencing my statement oldstrings. However my name does not contain "1". I was christened mehitabel23 and I wish to stay that way. Thank you
Jesus was not exactly welcomed with excited ululations when He first showed up with His large stringed kinnor at the King David's Central Marketplace Pub session, held every Habsaba evening.
The twelve regular sessionim would gather there to play your usual melody instruments like, oh, the ugav, the shofar, the shrika, and the hazozerot, and so on. So when some Nazarene with a freakin' kinnor fer Abe's sake shows up and starts whangin' away behind Luke's start-in of 'The Star Above the Zokn-Bendl' a few unpleasantries were directed at Our Lord Almighty.
But a few tunes in and He'd won them over. I hope you enjoyed this, just the first in a series of parables!
Ah, there's nothing like a mindless wind-up guitar or bodhran thread to brighten my day - however, I was glad I read long enough to enjoy New pure Drops Ear Canal Oil's parable. Your wit and verbosity far exceeds that of the average readership Pastor Oil. I look forward to your next sermon.
Tradmikey as for you and your dilemma, when I am drunk and insulted I find a swift head butt to the bridge of the nose of the offending party settles it quickly. Best wishes.
I've had to take the day off sick but this has made me feel so much better that I might even go to work tomorrow! Now then, mikey, you really must learn some bluesy riffs in E, works a treat with diddly stuff. Of course nobody plays in E so just use the capo at the 3rd fret, whip out the blues harp and rack, crank her up, away you go. Better still, try some open tuning (G is good), grab a glass (straight edged) from one of the players and astound them with your slide playing N.B. try not to spill their drink while doing this. Did you hear about the two anuses arguing? One says " you're a f*ckin a*sehole" the other replies "And you're full of s*it"
We were much entertained at our session earlier this evening, by Dave the optician playing slide mandola using his ( pint, not spectacle ) glass. It does have it's place in the musical canon.
Tradmikey,
I didn't bother reading half the stuff above (for some reason), but you probably just need to get an amp so your friends at the session can hear you.
Or, if you already have one, turn it all the way up, or get a bigger one.
These non-guitarists get really cranky when they have to strain to hear the guitar. Don't take it personally.
I've now emailed the joke about the pope twice -- ok, one of you, out with it!
I finally did get my 10 minutes of practice in -- oddly, I find that I can watch multi-hour videos on youtube about the current state of Freud and psychoanalysis quite effectively while I practice. Maybe it's that desire to castrate myself or to kill my father that I repress as long as I keep practicing.
Every accompanist in this music should be forced to play tunes on something, anything, a whistle, before attempting to go out and back anyone in public. They don't even have to be good at it, and can go slowly, but it makes you understand the music, the structures of tunes and the repeating patterns that arise.
I may get killed for this, but I think i may start making any new students learn a few tunes on whistle or at least flatpick them on guitar before we ever start accompaniment.
I think a great exercise for the new player..... flatpick a tune out slowly, use dots or ear or whatever, record it, and then go back yourself. Do it with all types of tunes, at your own pace, home alone.
OK outta here.... no more guitar threads for a while, LOL
Oh Darn yhaalhouse...you made me break silence.... This MUST be a joke. If not .....??
I wouldn't really force anyone to do anything, but I'd suggest nicely that a good way to learn to accompany would be to learn to play a few tunes first and get to sense the structure behind them at least. Knowing the right chords and key is only half the battle... knowing when and where to use which of them is why you need to know the tunes at least to some degree. Example, it's in D but starts on G or A. If new guitar players would learn some tunes, not even to perform, and played slowly is fine, they may see they sometimes/often have unpredictable twists and turns, they can then back them better by learning to listen for these little things, they can start to ID tunes they like, rather than not just wanting the key. I think it's great value to have a beginner learn a little melody, to learn to hear these things.
I once had a beginner ask me for TWO chords in each key, so he could alternate them and get it right maybe half the time, that would be good enough. I said to go get a chord chart, I wanted nothing to do with that. I'm not pretending to know it all, I don't, but sure don't want to promote that mentality. Besides the person's mental and physical health might be threatened and it would be all my fault!
Was that "go BACK yourself" you wrote, Iris ?
I'll try not to misinterpret it......
PS Still hoping to make it to the States next year, but might only be Western NY and Maine, not even NYC, let alone NJ......family commitments, you know.
Yes... Pete, I mean it would be an interesting experiment for an aspiring backer (I know some will cry oxymoron) to learn to pick a tune out, nice and slow, record it, and then back it up while playing it back to themselves. I really think it could help the tune structure get ingrained into them somehow.
And sure, I back myself all the time, even back myself while backing, due to being a fingerstyle player, so the thumb is the backup, the fingers will play on.
irisnevins, I completely agree with your suggestion that musicians who accompany this music should try to learn some tunes because it will help them be a better accompanist/backup musician because that approach has helped me considerably when I participate in the local Irish Session.
Yes - accompanists should learn to play lots of tunes - but preferably on a *melody* instrument rather than on the instrument they use to back with. I've also found doing this to be a great help with my understanding of the music, in the way I listen, as well as with the way I accompany it.
I play piano and bass and began playing Irish music in 1995 when some local musicians started an Irish Session here. Since then, I have learned that some people think a piano is fine for a melody instrument and some people disagree with that idea as well as believing that a piano has no place and/or no business being played at an Irish Session.
And, no, I do not try to play melodies on either my acoustic bass fiddle or my electric bass guitar.
Having played guitar tunes (though not Irish tunes until later in teens) right out from childhood because that's what instrument was lying around, and there was no one to teach me chords, I think was useful. Would have been nice to have a fiddle around though, and a few other things!
I think it develops your ear to play tunes, period, and teaches phrasing, which is very critical to accompaniment. It's easy enough to get a cheap whistle and force yourself by ear or dots to pick out even a rudimentary tune, badly, slowly, whatever, it's a start to understanding the music, the structure. etc. I previously would have a student listen to a CD of a whistle played slowly, and back it, but now I wonder if it would sink in a whole lot better if they were able to play some simple tunes themselves, not performance level, just for themselves, to feel it happen, feel where the stresses are, the stops and starts.
My son in law, he is a professional drummer, but started as a pianist, and has a theory that playing melody early on in life especially, is the key to later being able to pick the music up on any other instrument, and says without having learned piano as a kid he would not be so good a drummer (and he is in heavy demand, touring constantly, making a great living, even did some time in Riverdance). It taught him phrasing, it taught him to listen and adapt to each melody as a different entity.
So some introductory tune playing on anything is a good start for the *serious* accompanist (don't scream oxymoron!! some ARE serious about it!).... you run into many who really want to be part of the fun, you can't knock them there, it is loads of fun, but figure a few chords are enough. They can be, done tastefully and in the right places, but it's often just a social thing for many. And others are brilliant and I have heard melody players comment that they cannot begin to comprehend how some people accompany the music, that they would be lost. It all depends on what someone wants to get out of playing. Some just want to get by and have a good time, others serious.... but you also find that among melody players too. A lousy fiddler can also wreck a session bigtime, whistle too. Then again, I try to never take an open session seriously, because a big part of it is social, and you don't have to be the Chieftains or Bothy Band... though it's really nice when those moments gel and the music is greater than great.
Fauxcelt.... on the bass instruments do you ever catch partial melody in runs though? That's lots of fun, those moments ..... or do you use these in ITM or other music?
Dude--ya gotta cut back on your practice time. Less time with more concentration is the key. Also try placing the guitar face up under your bed when you sleep. Good Luck !!
irisnevins, at some of the other jam sessions I play bass at, sometimes I will play short runs on the bass--especially at the end of a section (for example, the "A" part or the "B" part) to provide more emphasis on the tonic key if that particular section ends in the tonic key. For example, in the tunes "Soldier's Joy" or "Old Joe Clark", when they go up to the fifth (or down to the fourth), when the tune returns to the tonic, I will play a short run starting on the fifth going downward to the tonic. In "Old Joe Clark" this means starting on "e" and playing d-c#-b before ending on "a". In "Soldier's Joy", I start on "a" and play g-f#-e before ending on "d". Sometimes, just for the sake of variety, I will play a run going upward instead of downward.
Both of these tunes are played frequently at the monthly meetings of a group of mixed nuts who call themselves the Rackensack Folklore Society. They play the type of music which people used to play at home to amuse and bemuse themselves before we had such modern conveniences as computers, television, radio, phonographs, paved roads, railroads, flush toilets, indoor plumbing, etc.
Sometimes, on slower tunes such as "Faded Love", I will play a slow walkdown (d-c-b-a) from "d" to "g" or I can go up by playing "d" twice and then e-f# up to "g".
I usually call this a "rundown" or a "walkdown" depending on the speed of the music.
I do similar things with the bass lines in waltzes.
While it is enjoyable for me to vary the bass lines a little bit when I can get away with it, the most important thing for me to keep in mind as a bass player is to maintain a steady beat no matter which notes I am playing.
And, last but not least, one of the banjo players from the local Irish Session has been talking about going to Catskills Irish Week this year if she can afford it.
Hi Fauxcelt...sounds like you really understand backing! Of course people have different tastes, but I like doing what I think you are describing (I don't read music, it seems nit to take root in my brain no matter how I try!) .... sort of piano runs, which would be like bass runs, I like to keep it moving, flowing, not rest on one chord a few bars, then another a few bars, maybe totalling just a couple of chord changes ber part of the tune. I think some prefer that, thinking if you do more you compete with the melody, but you don't if what you're really doing is joining in with the melody for bits of it. Not that one could ever convince most melody players of it, but done the way you describe, your job is every bit as complex as playing melody. I like my instrument, and it has many possibilities once you combine the number of strings and possible notes on it, and really want to make as full use of it as possible.
I do my runs up or down depending on the whim of the moment. if I run it down three times, there is a strong urge to vary it and run up instead, it usually works well either way. I like, also when playing in G, in dropped D, for which chording I use the fingers on the 5th fret, the low DAD stirngs, but will waver in the Lowest D back and forth to the F#, just a little here and there.... it fits on most tunes, as that note is often hit in many melodies, I love to just grab it momentarily along with the melody, just fleeting. Little touches like that make the accompaniment more interesting and it's extrememly subtle. I love backing/accompanying because you can have the freedom to improvise on these little things.
And yes, the steady beat..... has to be there. A good backup can be like a metronome in a session that runs a bit amok and reel it in.... pardon the pun!! Make it sound like music.
I don't imagine you or anyone else is still reading this thread though, LOL! Just had a peek back at it!
Urge your friend to CIAW.... she will have a great time.... you too!
Backing traditional music
Backing traditional music
Here's my problem maybe someone can help...I got a guitar for my birthday last month and Ive spent at least 10 mins each day practicing. I have all the keys off to a tee (D,G,A) and felt I was ready to play with other musicians. I went to the local session and proceeded to back the musicians as I had presumed that this is what they would want. I got a little drunk and a little carried away as I was able to play all the tunes no problem. I felt great. At the end of the session one of the session leaders called me over which I thought was to invite me to more sessions etc...instead he became very agressive and while I do not wish to lower the content of this fine site I was told that 'the f***in' thing would be shoved up my **** if I came near the session again'. I also think that I was followed home from the session that night which really worried me..could I be in some sort of danger for playing the guitar?Please can anyone tell me if they have experienced anything like this before. PS is it always necessary to put a new string on when I break it or can I wait until the end of a set of tunes and then re-string?(Its just that it takes so long and I dont always have spares anyway. I just retune the other three or four and paly on)
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by tradmikey
Re: Backing traditional music
w_i_n_d_u_p
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Backing traditional music
i remember all too well.when i started i had a cheap guitar. it was blue, and black round the edge.the sound was fine but i had problems tuning it. sometimes its best to play on through the end if you break a string,but instead of strumming, id maybe turn it on its side and tap it like a bodhran with the back of the hand.never let the others in a session know that youve broken a string because youl get some dirty looks, and maybe a snide remark asking if you need a spare g string.This put me off for a while , but now that ive got a brand new tanglewood,i dont have the problem breaking strings.my advice would be to bite the bullet and buy a better guitar.some give you a free strap and tuner too.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by guitar-ace
Re: Backing traditional music
Maybe you should practice for 15 minutes a day...
; P
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Backing traditional music
I don't know why you say w_i_n_d_u_p mehitabel23 - sounds like most guitarists to me.
Now, I'm just trying to think of something helpful to say ...
hmmmm ...
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Backing traditional music
Hello tradmikey. Backing up in a session is just that ... you provide support for the tunes, but the melody is the focus and the reason for being there... the most important part of backing up ANY music is listening... I have played guitar for over 30 years and it took me almost 3 years before I felt I could sit in with most people and back them up in a session without disrupting the tunes .
So I would say here's some pointers.
1. Work on listening so you can be aware of the pulses, chord changes and actual direction of the tune/melody.
2. Listen to recordings of other people backing up tunes and figure out what they are doing. (play along with those, it will really open your eyes)
3. Read the dozens of pages of advice already posted on this site about this subject.
4. If you can, learn some actual tunes (the melody) so you can play them on your guitar, then what's said above will make sense..
5. Did I say LISTEN??!
6. Find a slow / beginner's session if possible and go there and polish your backup chops... there are several in my area and probably is one in your area....
Good luck... and have fun... backing ITM is awesome when you get it right.....
Greg
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by jardineromi
Re: Backing traditional music
Of course, lot of people who go to sessions have the spare time (especially after midnight when the session has come to an end) to surreptitiously follow guitarists home and frighten them.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Backing traditional music
''I have all the keys off to a tee (D,G,A)''
What about minor keys, modes etc? It can get very annoying if you're playing a tune in A minor,(for instance), and a guitarist is thrashing along in A major.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Backing traditional music
"I got a guitar" "last month and Ive spent at least 10 mins each day practicing"
"I got a little drunk and a little carried away as I was able to play all the tunes no problem. I felt great."
File under "wit and humour"
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Backing traditional music
Should have got a bodhran instead of the guitar. 10 mins a day for a month is more than enough to be able to play on all the tunes no problems.
Here's some music to help you:
http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/triplets-sixteenths.jpg
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing traditional music
"4. If you can, learn some actual tunes (the melody) so you can play them on your guitar,..."
If you can??
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Backing traditional music
This is obviously a joke thread not to be taken seriously. If it winds you up, then I've got a joke for you...
So the pope is on an airplane sitting next to a Rabbi. The pope is doing a crossword puzzle and comes to a clue he can't quite get...
The punchline is that the pope says "can you lend me an eraser?"
Fill in the details.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Backing traditional music
If you're worried about being followed home from the session, take comfort in the fact that your guitar can be used as a quite effective weapon, as demonstrated by the legendary hero El Kabong:
http://www.animationusa.com/hb/kabong.html
You may find that you need to retune after your guitar has been used in this manner.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by fliedermaus
Re: Backing traditional music
Maybe simply do not get drunk when you try to play in sessions...
Other than that, practice, listen a lot to the music you want to learn, find another session where the leaders are more open and have better manners and patience, and be careful, listen carefully and only play what you are sure will sound good and be appropriate. Playing with others is a great experience so don't ruin it if you find a good place to do it.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by susiakasinead
Re: Backing traditional music
Oh, you poor babes in the wood!
Please go back and read the post again. Mehitabel123 has said all that needs to be said.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Backing traditional music
Why bother posting the thread?
April fool's day was ages ago :-S
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Backing traditional music
Thank you for referencing my statement oldstrings. However my name does not contain "1". I was christened mehitabel23 and I wish to stay that way. Thank you
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Backing traditional music
Jesus was not exactly welcomed with excited ululations when He first showed up with His large stringed kinnor at the King David's Central Marketplace Pub session, held every Habsaba evening.
The twelve regular sessionim would gather there to play your usual melody instruments like, oh, the ugav, the shofar, the shrika, and the hazozerot, and so on. So when some Nazarene with a freakin' kinnor fer Abe's sake shows up and starts whangin' away behind Luke's start-in of 'The Star Above the Zokn-Bendl' a few unpleasantries were directed at Our Lord Almighty.
But a few tunes in and He'd won them over. I hope you enjoyed this, just the first in a series of parables!
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Backing traditional music
Eliot - Don't keep me in suspenders......what did the Rabbi say???
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Backing traditional music
Viva El Kabong!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49lFPyzTfjw
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing traditional music
Old school El Kabong!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmemBa1HAzU
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing traditional music
Free Reed,
I sent you the joke in an email, you'll have to decide if you want to post it. I'm not touching it
By the way, I'm yet to put my 10 minutes in today on the guitar.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Backing traditional music
Please send me the joke too Eliot!!
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Backing traditional music
Ah, there's nothing like a mindless wind-up guitar or bodhran thread to brighten my day - however, I was glad I read long enough to enjoy New pure Drops Ear Canal Oil's parable. Your wit and verbosity far exceeds that of the average readership Pastor Oil. I look forward to your next sermon.
Tradmikey as for you and your dilemma, when I am drunk and insulted I find a swift head butt to the bridge of the nose of the offending party settles it quickly. Best wishes.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Backing traditional music
...but the real question is, does tradmikey "like it"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYEXzx-TINc
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing traditional music
Eejit--
¡Muchas Gracias! I enjoyed your profile. Here's another quote you may want plunked in there:
"This is one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever."--Sigmund Freud, about the Irish
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Backing traditional music
I've had to take the day off sick but this has made me feel so much better that I might even go to work tomorrow! Now then, mikey, you really must learn some bluesy riffs in E, works a treat with diddly stuff. Of course nobody plays in E so just use the capo at the 3rd fret, whip out the blues harp and rack, crank her up, away you go. Better still, try some open tuning (G is good), grab a glass (straight edged) from one of the players and astound them with your slide playing N.B. try not to spill their drink while doing this. Did you hear about the two anuses arguing? One says " you're a f*ckin a*sehole" the other replies "And you're full of s*it"
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Backing traditional music
We were much entertained at our session earlier this evening, by Dave the optician playing slide mandola using his ( pint, not spectacle ) glass. It does have it's place in the musical canon.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Backing traditional music
Sounds like a grumpy, jealous session leader.
Carry on, but practice less. You need to ease up, you can over practice.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Backing traditional music
>> I thought was to invite me to more sessions etc<<
>>I was told that 'the f***in' thing would be shoved up my **** if I came near the session again'<<
I'm confused. Isn't that an invitation?
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by BarryM
Re: Backing traditional music
Tradmikey,
I didn't bother reading half the stuff above (for some reason), but you probably just need to get an amp so your friends at the session can hear you.
Or, if you already have one, turn it all the way up, or get a bigger one.
These non-guitarists get really cranky when they have to strain to hear the guitar. Don't take it personally.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Backing traditional music
And when they follow you home with torches? They're most likely lighting the way, wanting to prevent any harm from coming to you.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Backing traditional music
And their pitchforks were for digging you out of piles of hay in case you happened to fall into one and get stuck.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Backing traditional music
I've now emailed the joke about the pope twice -- ok, one of you, out with it!
I finally did get my 10 minutes of practice in -- oddly, I find that I can watch multi-hour videos on youtube about the current state of Freud and psychoanalysis quite effectively while I practice. Maybe it's that desire to castrate myself or to kill my father that I repress as long as I keep practicing.
Somebody stop me.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Backing traditional music
OK --
Try watching this while practicing ---
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4828764300236554184&q=psychoanalysis&ei=I_ZNSNjKKZHCqAO5tP24DA
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Backing traditional music
Followed you home? Here's something you can practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfUkFncPXzE&feature=related
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Backing traditional music
Every accompanist in this music should be forced to play tunes on something, anything, a whistle, before attempting to go out and back anyone in public. They don't even have to be good at it, and can go slowly, but it makes you understand the music, the structures of tunes and the repeating patterns that arise.
I may get killed for this, but I think i may start making any new students learn a few tunes on whistle or at least flatpick them on guitar before we ever start accompaniment.
I think a great exercise for the new player..... flatpick a tune out slowly, use dots or ear or whatever, record it, and then go back yourself. Do it with all types of tunes, at your own pace, home alone.
OK outta here.... no more guitar threads for a while, LOL
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by irisnevins
Forcing accompanists to play tunes on something...
Irisnevins:
How do you propose to FORCE every accompanist to do stuff?
This is London/ Europe/ Wotteffah not the USA you know!
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Backing traditional music
Ah, it's easier there, just pass a law with the EU.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing traditional music
Oh Darn yhaalhouse...you made me break silence.... This MUST be a joke. If not .....??
I wouldn't really force anyone to do anything, but I'd suggest nicely that a good way to learn to accompany would be to learn to play a few tunes first and get to sense the structure behind them at least. Knowing the right chords and key is only half the battle... knowing when and where to use which of them is why you need to know the tunes at least to some degree. Example, it's in D but starts on G or A. If new guitar players would learn some tunes, not even to perform, and played slowly is fine, they may see they sometimes/often have unpredictable twists and turns, they can then back them better by learning to listen for these little things, they can start to ID tunes they like, rather than not just wanting the key. I think it's great value to have a beginner learn a little melody, to learn to hear these things.
I once had a beginner ask me for TWO chords in each key, so he could alternate them and get it right maybe half the time, that would be good enough. I said to go get a chord chart, I wanted nothing to do with that. I'm not pretending to know it all, I don't, but sure don't want to promote that mentality. Besides the person's mental and physical health might be threatened and it would be all my fault!
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing traditional music
Was that "go BACK yourself" you wrote, Iris ?
I'll try not to misinterpret it......
PS Still hoping to make it to the States next year, but might only be Western NY and Maine, not even NYC, let alone NJ......family commitments, you know.
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Backing traditional music
Yes... Pete, I mean it would be an interesting experiment for an aspiring backer (I know some will cry oxymoron) to learn to pick a tune out, nice and slow, record it, and then back it up while playing it back to themselves. I really think it could help the tune structure get ingrained into them somehow.
And sure, I back myself all the time, even back myself while backing, due to being a fingerstyle player, so the thumb is the backup, the fingers will play on.
# Posted on June 12th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing traditional music
PS.... if you DO happen to hit NYC, our session and sometimes concerts are withing an hour away. Make sure you get in touch!
# Posted on June 12th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing traditional music
irisnevins, I completely agree with your suggestion that musicians who accompany this music should try to learn some tunes because it will help them be a better accompanist/backup musician because that approach has helped me considerably when I participate in the local Irish Session.
# Posted on June 12th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing traditional music
Yes - accompanists should learn to play lots of tunes - but preferably on a *melody* instrument rather than on the instrument they use to back with. I've also found doing this to be a great help with my understanding of the music, in the way I listen, as well as with the way I accompany it.
# Posted on June 12th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Backing traditional music
I play piano and bass and began playing Irish music in 1995 when some local musicians started an Irish Session here. Since then, I have learned that some people think a piano is fine for a melody instrument and some people disagree with that idea as well as believing that a piano has no place and/or no business being played at an Irish Session.
And, no, I do not try to play melodies on either my acoustic bass fiddle or my electric bass guitar.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing traditional music
Having played guitar tunes (though not Irish tunes until later in teens) right out from childhood because that's what instrument was lying around, and there was no one to teach me chords, I think was useful. Would have been nice to have a fiddle around though, and a few other things!
I think it develops your ear to play tunes, period, and teaches phrasing, which is very critical to accompaniment. It's easy enough to get a cheap whistle and force yourself by ear or dots to pick out even a rudimentary tune, badly, slowly, whatever, it's a start to understanding the music, the structure. etc. I previously would have a student listen to a CD of a whistle played slowly, and back it, but now I wonder if it would sink in a whole lot better if they were able to play some simple tunes themselves, not performance level, just for themselves, to feel it happen, feel where the stresses are, the stops and starts.
My son in law, he is a professional drummer, but started as a pianist, and has a theory that playing melody early on in life especially, is the key to later being able to pick the music up on any other instrument, and says without having learned piano as a kid he would not be so good a drummer (and he is in heavy demand, touring constantly, making a great living, even did some time in Riverdance). It taught him phrasing, it taught him to listen and adapt to each melody as a different entity.
So some introductory tune playing on anything is a good start for the *serious* accompanist (don't scream oxymoron!! some ARE serious about it!).... you run into many who really want to be part of the fun, you can't knock them there, it is loads of fun, but figure a few chords are enough. They can be, done tastefully and in the right places, but it's often just a social thing for many. And others are brilliant and I have heard melody players comment that they cannot begin to comprehend how some people accompany the music, that they would be lost. It all depends on what someone wants to get out of playing. Some just want to get by and have a good time, others serious.... but you also find that among melody players too. A lousy fiddler can also wreck a session bigtime, whistle too. Then again, I try to never take an open session seriously, because a big part of it is social, and you don't have to be the Chieftains or Bothy Band... though it's really nice when those moments gel and the music is greater than great.
Fauxcelt.... on the bass instruments do you ever catch partial melody in runs though? That's lots of fun, those moments ..... or do you use these in ITM or other music?
# Posted on June 14th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing traditional music
Dude--ya gotta cut back on your practice time. Less time with more concentration is the key. Also try placing the guitar face up under your bed when you sleep. Good Luck !!
# Posted on June 15th 2008 by hauke
Re: Backing traditional music
irisnevins, at some of the other jam sessions I play bass at, sometimes I will play short runs on the bass--especially at the end of a section (for example, the "A" part or the "B" part) to provide more emphasis on the tonic key if that particular section ends in the tonic key. For example, in the tunes "Soldier's Joy" or "Old Joe Clark", when they go up to the fifth (or down to the fourth), when the tune returns to the tonic, I will play a short run starting on the fifth going downward to the tonic. In "Old Joe Clark" this means starting on "e" and playing d-c#-b before ending on "a". In "Soldier's Joy", I start on "a" and play g-f#-e before ending on "d". Sometimes, just for the sake of variety, I will play a run going upward instead of downward.
Both of these tunes are played frequently at the monthly meetings of a group of mixed nuts who call themselves the Rackensack Folklore Society. They play the type of music which people used to play at home to amuse and bemuse themselves before we had such modern conveniences as computers, television, radio, phonographs, paved roads, railroads, flush toilets, indoor plumbing, etc.
Sometimes, on slower tunes such as "Faded Love", I will play a slow walkdown (d-c-b-a) from "d" to "g" or I can go up by playing "d" twice and then e-f# up to "g".
I usually call this a "rundown" or a "walkdown" depending on the speed of the music.
I do similar things with the bass lines in waltzes.
While it is enjoyable for me to vary the bass lines a little bit when I can get away with it, the most important thing for me to keep in mind as a bass player is to maintain a steady beat no matter which notes I am playing.
And, last but not least, one of the banjo players from the local Irish Session has been talking about going to Catskills Irish Week this year if she can afford it.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing traditional music
Hi Fauxcelt...sounds like you really understand backing! Of course people have different tastes, but I like doing what I think you are describing (I don't read music, it seems nit to take root in my brain no matter how I try!) .... sort of piano runs, which would be like bass runs, I like to keep it moving, flowing, not rest on one chord a few bars, then another a few bars, maybe totalling just a couple of chord changes ber part of the tune. I think some prefer that, thinking if you do more you compete with the melody, but you don't if what you're really doing is joining in with the melody for bits of it. Not that one could ever convince most melody players of it, but done the way you describe, your job is every bit as complex as playing melody. I like my instrument, and it has many possibilities once you combine the number of strings and possible notes on it, and really want to make as full use of it as possible.
I do my runs up or down depending on the whim of the moment. if I run it down three times, there is a strong urge to vary it and run up instead, it usually works well either way. I like, also when playing in G, in dropped D, for which chording I use the fingers on the 5th fret, the low DAD stirngs, but will waver in the Lowest D back and forth to the F#, just a little here and there.... it fits on most tunes, as that note is often hit in many melodies, I love to just grab it momentarily along with the melody, just fleeting. Little touches like that make the accompaniment more interesting and it's extrememly subtle. I love backing/accompanying because you can have the freedom to improvise on these little things.
And yes, the steady beat..... has to be there. A good backup can be like a metronome in a session that runs a bit amok and reel it in.... pardon the pun!! Make it sound like music.
I don't imagine you or anyone else is still reading this thread though, LOL! Just had a peek back at it!
Urge your friend to CIAW.... she will have a great time.... you too!
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by irisnevins