Two subjects together which seem to get some peoples blood boiling!
On a recent thread, a couple of our much revered posters brought up (in order to deride) somebody's attempt at notation for the bodhran. Their comments had nothing to do with the original question and the thread was used to try and belittle the idea. Personally,I think it's quite good idea but I can appreciate that not everyone would want use it - but that's my point - the right to choose having weighed up the evidence.
On this board shouldn't we try to encourage each other and offer positive responses and helpful information rather than pour scorn on other peoples efforts to promote better musical understanding?
But on a serious note, I'm absolutely of the opinion that if you can't laugh at this, you are probably way beyond ever having any kind of musical understanding at all.
yeah ... even playing diddley music is, in the end, pointless. So far be it for me to deride something merely because it has no point.
But I'm just imagining a scenario: A good percussion player, say a professional orchestral player, hears some diddley music and likes the sound of it. It is very percussive music after all, so what's not to like. He's got a bodhran (who hasn't) that someone gave him and he looks at this: http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/triplets-sixteenths.jpg
and has a go and lo and behold it's a piece of p*ss for him. So down he trundles to the session and I end up having to ask him to shut up.
A good percussionist doesn't need a drum. I've seen some of the best, including the renowned deaf classical percussionist Evelyn Glennie, at a session, and they can get a good rhythm on the edge of the bar, or anything. If you can't do that, I don't see how a drum will help.
As far as I understand, there is already a type of notation for untuned percussion, using x's --- ? I can see that the notation thingy was an attempt to show beginners when they should use up thumps or down thumps (or different ends of their stick?) so it's not completely ludicrous
I understand Michael's point , which I think he's made once or twice, that the rhythm is inherent in the playing of the tunes and doesn't need a drum, but I quite like percussion.
Bodhrans are often too boomy for stringed instruments though and cancel out the tone, and that's even before the cumulative volume makes other instruments inaudible, or the combination with x-number of guitars reduces everything to a muddy thump.
Can be a very effective instrument on its own though, or as simple song accompaniment.
Illig, there's a long tradition of drum notation -- for drum rudiments -- so why not? I say that as a more than decent bodhran player myself. I DON'T play by notation, never did, but I have referred to it now and then for an idea and for teaching purposes. Ultimately notation -- unlike, say, for formal percussion or for drum corps stuff -- is pointless, but then it's somewhat the same for fiddle too. You have to be there, hear the rhythms no one could possibly notate, here the stuff that a great fiddle player is doing vs the stuff a great guitar player [god there are so few!!] are doing and find a niche between the two. Then magic happens. It's amazing. Of course you can't notate whatever it is we're doing then in terms of rhythms. You can't teach it either. Like great fiddle players, great bodhran players/rhythm players are born. You can't really 'learn' it...well, sort of. But not really.
If it's helpful for someone starting out good luck to 'em. Just don't come to any session where I play!
this site is full of people who want to put down or be what they think is sarcastic to people they obviously know, this used to be a very helpful site, but its getting boring now, without naming names, you know who you are!!
So, a plea to offer encouragement and positive feedback when responding to questions from bodhran players fell on stoney ground. Shame.
I feel the same way as lilyot.
Some people remain seemingly unable to comprehend the point of bodhrans and continue to express their prejudicial views that help no one. I don't laugh at the notated examples because I can understand them, and the point of them, but my musical understanding remains intact.
The other contributions are a mix of tired, old stereotypical jokes which don't help either.
The point of bodhrans? well in my experience ( I am young) bad and out of tune fiddle players are much much worse than bodhran players and I know so so many, I suppose we should ask people like John Joe Kelly and Tommy Hayes what is the point of a bodhran, but I am sure they have more to do than be on this site!
Well, yes, when played well, the bodhran sounds nice. But this is by no means the end of it. Sounding nice is simply not enough. You should be contributing to the music. All the bodhran does is to repeat half of what a tune player contributes. Just look at this again:
All it is is the most tedious jig you could ever imagine. The most tedious pointless useless nonsense of a jig ever imagined. And that's bodhran playing for you. Yeah sure, if you are really good, you will be subtle with your accents and lift and drive etc. But there is nothing you can do with your drum, absolutely nothing, not one single thing you could ever hope to do that your tune player won't already be doing.
(By the way, just let me reiterate that I'm not interested in bad bodhran playing)
Well said Mr Llig, on your earlier posts. Notation for a bodhran rates with selling the Statue of Liberty to tourists, either a joke or a massive swindle. But as I said before, there is a fortune to be made in the bodhran trade if you are an entrepreneur/thief.
Because it looks easy and offers a quick way in, some people will try anything. All of those books and videos about playing the bodhran, it is impossible to learn from those, but they still sell well.
I actually like the bodhran in Irish music. Some people don't, all a matter of taste. But the likes of "O'Neill's March" without drums is like having an AK47 without bullets, just to keep it on a military theme.
Not so sure about military themed analogies, but here goes:
Playing "O'Neill's March on the fiddle is a bit like marching around a parade ground. You can do it fine, but it's not much fun. I bet though, that playing it on the fiddle with bodhran bliss banging his drum is more like marching around a parade ground with the drill sergeant shouting in you ear. More effective maybe, but probably even less fun.
But to move to a more savoury analogy:
Playing jigs and reels is like eating the most fabulous sandwich you can imagine. Hmmmmm .... thick sliced and lightly toasted wholemeal bread made with sunflower seeds and oats, buttered. Hot seared fresh tuna steak (rare of course) with rocket and lemon and garlic mayonnaise on one side, and a coriander pesto (mashed toasted pine nuts, coriander and parmigiano) on the other.
And playing jigs and reels with a bodhran accompanying is like eating the most fabulous sandwich you can imagine, with a slice of white bread on the side.
(in fact, playing the bodhran must be like eating dry white bread while the smelling the guy next to you eating the sandwich I described above)
In knowing that your views on this subject are well documented and seemingly entrenched I am somewhat reluctant to discuss this further but nevertheless will try and answer your points as best as I can in the spirit of constructive debate.
Actually I’m interested in bad bodhran playing in as much as, like you, I want it to become much scarcer! So for the following thoughts let’s imagine we are discussing a competent player.
To say ‘All the bodhran does is to repeat half of what a tune player contributes’ is (if I may return your expression in a different context) ‘by no means the end of the matter’. To try to quantify, in fractions, what a player contributes to any musical performance, in any genre, according to how many and what type of notes played is over simplistic. Of course I absolutely agree with you that the bodhran player has to follow the lead of the tune-smith in a sensitive and accompanying role.
In ITM the music is largely dance music and trad.dance music the world over often features a drum. It is used to underline the rhythms of the dance tunes.
Regardless that the bodhran is regarded as a relatively recent addition, this is largely its purpose in ITM today, where it underlines the rhythms that the tune-smiths are playing.
If I may, I’d like to challenge your assertion that ‘there is not one single thing you could ever hope to do to that your tune player won’t already be doing’.
I’m not being flippant, but it’s obvious that there is at least one single thing that the bodhran can do and that is to add the sound of the drum itself. This contributes to the texture, and texture in music has a part to play in the sound of any musical group as it helps give variety.
For an analogy, the use of the the bodhran in ITM to underline rhythm with its distinctive timbre is akin to using a polarising filter on a lens to enhance the colours of the (musical) image.
So that’s part of my take on the use of the bodhran in a session.
The problems arrive with those who don’t know how, what or when to play it.
Like you I’m dismayed (you might say something more caustic!) when I hear overloud, overused, arrhythmic bodhran playing; 9/8 slip jigs played as 6/8 jigs and the inappropriate use of pitch changes which detract from the tonality of the music etc. etc.
It seems to me that these people more than any other instrumentalist need as much help as possible to understand the purpose of the instrument and how to play it within some sort of discipline (in the broad sense of the word).
The bodhran notation that started this thread is only part of this discipline but (before you bite my head off) is probably only for those few bodhran players who read the dots.
I have not seen these particular notations but I have seen similar. Their purpose is provide a practice regime, that’s all.
The jig notation to which you refer is, as you quite rightly say, a’ tedious nonsense of a jig ever imagined’. Well it would be if the tonal shifts were excluded! Seriously though, nobody would present that for a performance in a session or anywhere else. Its purpose is to try out different sticking techniques using a rhythmical pattern and pitch shifts. Why you may ask? Well, practice gives stick control and the pitch shifting can be used occasionally and for solos etc. But nobody is claiming it to be any more than an aid to be used with all the usual elements that make good practice.
But I welcome all efforts which offer enlightenment whether it be listening (that is the most important of course) discussion, demonstration, day courses, weekly courses, literature, magic or divine inspiration! It’s all grist to the mill and you can choose what works best for you. But, please bodhranists, do something if you need to improve. Do nothing if you are already at the pinnacle but please don’t be disparaging and discouraging to those who take any or all of the options.
The bodhran is now an established part of the ITM session scene and while I can acknowledge that not everyone likes it, stating this personal dislike at every opportunity on this board in the hope the drum and its exponents will disappear off the face of the earth is as futile as was Canute with the tide.
That is why I offered up a plea for more constructive and positive responses to queries about bodhrans rather than the predictable but tiresome slagging off. It is not constructive and we are still left with bad bodhran players which spoil it for everyone including the good players who get tarred with the same brush. Better to assist the bad, praise the good (admittedly this does happen here) and let’s work towards improving the situation for the benefit of all at the session.
paragraph 1: I love the spirit of constructive debate
par 2: I'm not interested in bad bodhran playing. I'll only discuss good bodhran playing.
par 3: There is nothing more to music than what notes, when, where and why - and what do they sound like. A bodhran does not play any notes where there are not notes already. They just sound different. The sandwich analogy stands. The bodhran is merely bread. The tunes are a sandwich
par 4: You are saying here that because other musics the world over feature a drum, so should Irish music. You'll have to do better than that.
par 5: Yes, I agree, the drum sounds different. But that's all it does. Is that enough? For some it is and that's fine. But it's important for anyone who wants to play the drum to realise this. To realise that they can do everything possible on the drum from within the tune itself and ask themselves, is the mere addition of an extra texture worth it? In other words, if percussion is your thing, play the tunes.
par 6: A filter does not enhance, it blocks. This is a very important distinction. A bodhran does not enhance the rhythm of the tune, it obscures what the tune is doing, just like a filter. It's a good analogy.
par 7: see 2
par 8: see 2
par 9: see 2
par 10: The enlightenment I'm offering is that if you are at the pinnacle of bodhran playing, take all you have learned to the next level. Keep all your hard won appreciation of the rhythms of this music, put your drum away, and transfer to putting pitches in your notes. If you really are a good drummer, you'd make a better tune player than most.
par 11: The drip drip against the thing is very important. It's very important to keep it up. You never know, there maybe someone out there who will actually put away their bodhran and learn some tunes. Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't it be great if Lilyot put away the drum and filled that bread with something succulent?
Para 3 A bodhran does play notes where the tune plays quarter notes it plays eighths etc but this 'my notes are better than your notes suits the playground mentality of your responses throughout. There is also a whole lot more to music than your little list. if you bothered to read my post I fully acknowledge the supporting role of the instrument but if you took the time to read it it might spoil your rant.
Para 4. I never said 'should'. It does though. You'll have to do.
better than this!
Para 5 texture is important. it's what the drum adds here. I've been at pains to point out the accompanying nature of its place in music ,
but again you've ignored this to keep your frustrated rant on track..
Para 6 maybe not a good anology but whatever happens the drum underpins and enhances the music and changes its focus on to the rhythm which a lot of people find attractive.
Para 789 Me too.
Para 10 How do you know I don't play tunes? That kind of prejudicial assumption weaken your arguments.
Para 11 The drip is corrosive, and damaging. Be positive and cheer up!
I haven't got time for any more of this now, but you'd be surprised with my stamina for it.
Couple of quickies though:
I liked it when you retracted your filter analogy.
And it's funny that you thought number ten was meant for you in particular. Was it because you read, "if you are at the pinnacle of bodhran playing"? ha ha. I'll be more careful next time - "if you one is at the pinnacle ... "
"What i play is better than what you play......Blah blah blah blah"
There seems to be a serious superiority complex to ITM from what i can see on this site.
"i can be partof ITM because i play it well, and i have trained long and hard to get here so i have the right to be a B*olloX."
Everybody at some stage picked up their choice of instrument for the first time, a i bet all i have that not one of them were fantastic on it. People dont like the bodhran because you get all types trying to become a part of ITM by playing it, trying to become a member of the best music club in the world and Most people are the managing director! Well in their heads anyway.
The bodhran is an irish Percussion instrument, nothing more nothing less, whenplayed well it enhances music when played badly, ruins it.
Constructive criticism if far more helpful than "go away"
try these,
"try practising for a few more months and come back then"
I think, at the risk of speaking for Bodhran Bliss and Gran Cassa, that what people who obviously 'get' bodhran playing -- AND the amazing possibilities inherent in its sounds [if played well] and offerings in terms of giving lift [lift that, admittedly, the melody instruments are imparting *already* -- if played well -- but that a good percussionist can *enhance* without getting in the way or adding another 'layer' that takes away from the melody line] -- are saying is that a bodhran in senstive hands, played well is indeed a MUSICAL instrument....as much as a fiddle or anything else. I might even dare to say -- and perhaps BB -- will back me up, is that a truly good bodhran player will if not create some 'melody' of his/her own can and will follow the melody on the drum. It is possible with today's drums to do so...as you no doubt yourself no Illig. So I'm not sure what the problem is here.
Look, I took up fiddle so I could also appreciate the dilemma and 'truly' felt I would fit in with ItM'ers. I'm in year 9 of that. I am the first to say that playing a melody instrument well is insanely hard. Bodhran was not so hard for me, but that's because I played percussion since a kid. So I can see both sides of it. I'll be honest and say that IF I JUST played bodhran I might even get a tad bored...which is why I took up fiddle. I understand what you're saying as a melody instrument player, but I'm here to tell you that a good senstive bodhran player has much to offer [not take away from] those who *carry the melody torch*.
Seems you understand me but can put it in fewer words. I was trying to be concilliatory in my missive but it doesnt' seem to be reciprocated by some people. So basic verbal jabbing is resorted to. That's ok , I can rough it with the best!
liig, I've no time for this one either but to rejoin you on your last couple of points. 'If you one is at the pinnacle' is something you wrote after you said you'd have to be more careful! I love the irony of that as I'm sure you do!
What is there to music ? etc. You missed out how? and who? for starters!
Im another one who doesnt get this anti- Bodhran stuff. OK any instruments played badly can be a problem. That certainly includes fiddles. A bodhran played well is a great addition to a session. Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that some people cant keep time and refuse to consider that possibility? To demean them selves and actually listen to the drummer is beneath them! As both percussionist and tunesmith i understend how the rhythm plays itself on the drum . While on the fiddle it doesnt.This is to do with the bounce of the skin and the physically large movements involved.
I wonder if these anti bodhran people can play in time, we have no evidence to suggest they can. I dont think they actually understand the first thing about drumming, rhythm . That is why they hate the drum.
"how" = what notes, when, where, why - and what do they sound like.
And "who" is not important.
"the rhythm plays itself on the drum . While on the fiddle it doesn't". Nonsense
mtodd, I liked your post. Thoughtful intelligent, good tone. And there is much to agree with. I've never been anti bodhran, it's just that if you take away the mere timbre of it, at its best, it's simply pointless.
If I could re-iterate my caveat: just because I've never enjoyed a tune with a bodhran, doesn't mean I never will.
Ilig.
That's true...without timbre & dynamics [and of course mixing up the beats] you might as well play a pizza box.
My reply to anyone who asks [of the bodhran...and plenty do...usually the punters who you just KNOW you're going to see next week playing a drum with a Guinness logo on it]:
"Is that instrument hard to play?"
To which I replay, "Not at all.... Unless you want to play it well."
Sadly, many do not. I'll concede your point on that score Ilig...
Why is that nonesense? Are you saying the rhythm plays itself on the fiddle ? Because it does on the drum.
The bounce of the stick with a minicscule flick continues the rhythm. Its actually quite difficult to play out of time for a good drummer, you have to actively stop the tipper. Now, unless you are bouncing the bow on the string with detache that is not the case with the fiddle. Are you a good bodhran player? because if not, what makes you think you can comment with any accuracy?
"...the rhythm plays itself on the drum ... ... This is to do with the bounce of the skin and the physically large movements involved"
"The bounce of the stick with a minicscule flick continues the rhythm. Its actually quite difficult to play out of time for a good drummer, you have to actively stop the tipper."
Quote from "The Bodhran, A practical Introduction", by Michael O Suilleabhain : "The principal of random play in music is that every instrument lends itself to certain rhythmic, melodic or harmonic patterns. These are determined by the construction of the instrument (which in turn is affected by the musical demands of the musician) interacting with the accepted method of playing (holding the instrument etc). In the case of the bodhran, once the secret of the hand position has been unfolded and a basic facility is mastered, then the player finds that certain rhythms happen almost by accident"
Yes, that's the problem.
But, to be, fair he goes on " 'Going with' the instrument is as important at this stage as going against it will be when you advance in technical ability".
I was thinking about that one while I was out diddling this evening. You use ... sorry ... One uses the spring of the bow. It's how you play the fiddle for christ's sake.
Ionannas says that they bodhran players use the bounce of the stick to get the rhythm and this can't be done of the fiddle?
How dose one play? One decides to play what notes, when, where and why, with concideration to what they sound like.
That more than covers attack, dynamics and spirit.
When I say I'm not interested in who is playing I'm refering to the lack of ego in it. The music stands on its own and is juged on only that. Theere is no caveat to who is playing it. (But notice I say who, not what)
I;m not familiar with that word, "detache", but it's very relevant to diddley music. Great rhythm and energy is gained without lifting the bow off the strings. It IS the bounce of the stick.
So then the word 'How' will cover all the previous categories. Good.
Seriously now. I am interested in your make of bodhran. I ask because you said you own one.
... don't know why I kept it. Though I was thinking of painting a red circle round the edge of the skin and a diagonal red stripe. Then sticking it up on the wall of the pub with an 8" nail right through the centre.
(there may be some subliminal reference there to the study of the religions of Ireland, I'm not sure)
“ I've never been anti-bodhran.” And “Just because I've never enjoyed a tune with a bodhran, doesn't mean I never will”.
To help bring about this epihany why not donate your unused bodhran to a local children's music group or something like.
I know that in Edinburgh, for example, there is an annual festival called 'Bodhran Bash' which sees people of all ages coming together for workshops, instruction and concerts with other instrumentalists. Lessons at all levels of competency are given by respected players. How the instrument is used in sesions including session etiquette is also discussed .
It's this sort of enterprise which encourages good bodhran playing that I was asking everyone at the Session to support rather than deride.
Wouldn't it be lovely if a player who started out using your donated drum became the player who eventually caused you to enjoy a tune with a bodhran?
Just be sure to use some really nasty adhesive as well, and perhaps plumbing straps, duct tape, lock and chains--anything--to make sure it stays on the wall, eh? Wouldn't want it falling into the wrong (any) hands)....
Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Two subjects together which seem to get some peoples blood boiling!
On a recent thread, a couple of our much revered posters brought up (in order to deride) somebody's attempt at notation for the bodhran. Their comments had nothing to do with the original question and the thread was used to try and belittle the idea. Personally,I think it's quite good idea but I can appreciate that not everyone would want use it - but that's my point - the right to choose having weighed up the evidence.
On this board shouldn't we try to encourage each other and offer positive responses and helpful information rather than pour scorn on other peoples efforts to promote better musical understanding?
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
ha. And just in case anyone missed it the first time round.
http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/bodhran-notation-expanded.jpg
http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/syncopation-p17.jpg
And this is the best one:
http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/triplets-sixteenths.jpg
But on a serious note, I'm absolutely of the opinion that if you can't laugh at this, you are probably way beyond ever having any kind of musical understanding at all.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Pointless but harmless.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
... oh yes, and since when has derision automatically been equated with ignorance?
And believe it or not, I am being possitive and trying to help. Some ideas are just so plain god dam awful.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
yes, pointless. But only harmless if no body takes it seriously
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Even if they take it seriously, no harm is done. Many things are pointles, eg posting on this thread for examp......
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
I thought it was a joke anyway ... wasn't it?
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
yeah ... even playing diddley music is, in the end, pointless. So far be it for me to deride something merely because it has no point.
But I'm just imagining a scenario: A good percussion player, say a professional orchestral player, hears some diddley music and likes the sound of it. It is very percussive music after all, so what's not to like. He's got a bodhran (who hasn't) that someone gave him and he looks at this:
http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/triplets-sixteenths.jpg
and has a go and lo and behold it's a piece of p*ss for him. So down he trundles to the session and I end up having to ask him to shut up.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
But Michael, how dare you. After all, yer man will be doing it completely correctly, because he'll be reading it from the sheet music.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
tee he
Could someone put this three part reel in the data base here. I'd love to hear what it sounds like through the midi player.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Probably nearly as good as tam lin
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
A good percussionist doesn't need a drum. I've seen some of the best, including the renowned deaf classical percussionist Evelyn Glennie, at a session, and they can get a good rhythm on the edge of the bar, or anything. If you can't do that, I don't see how a drum will help.
As far as I understand, there is already a type of notation for untuned percussion, using x's --- ? I can see that the notation thingy was an attempt to show beginners when they should use up thumps or down thumps (or different ends of their stick?) so it's not completely ludicrous
I understand Michael's point , which I think he's made once or twice, that the rhythm is inherent in the playing of the tunes and doesn't need a drum, but I quite like percussion.
Bodhrans are often too boomy for stringed instruments though and cancel out the tone, and that's even before the cumulative volume makes other instruments inaudible, or the combination with x-number of guitars reduces everything to a muddy thump.
Can be a very effective instrument on its own though, or as simple song accompaniment.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Bren
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Illig, there's a long tradition of drum notation -- for drum rudiments -- so why not? I say that as a more than decent bodhran player myself. I DON'T play by notation, never did, but I have referred to it now and then for an idea and for teaching purposes. Ultimately notation -- unlike, say, for formal percussion or for drum corps stuff -- is pointless, but then it's somewhat the same for fiddle too. You have to be there, hear the rhythms no one could possibly notate, here the stuff that a great fiddle player is doing vs the stuff a great guitar player [god there are so few!!] are doing and find a niche between the two. Then magic happens. It's amazing. Of course you can't notate whatever it is we're doing then in terms of rhythms. You can't teach it either. Like great fiddle players, great bodhran players/rhythm players are born. You can't really 'learn' it...well, sort of. But not really.
If it's helpful for someone starting out good luck to 'em. Just don't come to any session where I play!
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Isn't a decent bodhran player someone who can play, but doesn't?
.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Bren
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
There'll be notation for free range shakey eggs next you mark my words.
....Or is that range shakey eggs which don't cost anything? ......
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
'Great bodhran players/rhythm players are born.' This is news to me. I thought they were manufactured somewhere near Smethwick.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
this site is full of people who want to put down or be what they think is sarcastic to people they obviously know, this used to be a very helpful site, but its getting boring now, without naming names, you know who you are!!
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by lilyot
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
So, a plea to offer encouragement and positive feedback when responding to questions from bodhran players fell on stoney ground. Shame.
I feel the same way as lilyot.
Some people remain seemingly unable to comprehend the point of bodhrans and continue to express their prejudicial views that help no one. I don't laugh at the notated examples because I can understand them, and the point of them, but my musical understanding remains intact.
The other contributions are a mix of tired, old stereotypical jokes which don't help either.
Oh well, worth a try.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
'Some people remain seemingly unable to comprehend the point of bodhrans.'
Go on, then, Gran Cassa, what is 'the point of bodhráns'? As far as I can see you haven't made any overwhelming case in their favour.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
What wrong with being friendly, helpful and a p*ss-artist all at the same time? Seems like that's a part of "the tradition" as well, eh?
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
What wrong? What ho there, stand fast! Heave to and prepare to bodhraned! Anyone seen my 's'? How about my apostrophe? No? Feh.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
The point of bodhrans? well in my experience ( I am young) bad and out of tune fiddle players are much much worse than bodhran players and I know so so many, I suppose we should ask people like John Joe Kelly and Tommy Hayes what is the point of a bodhran, but I am sure they have more to do than be on this site!
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by lilyot
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Hello Floss,
Here's my 'overwhelming case' ; when played well, the bodhran sounds nice.
Love and kisses,
Gran
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Well, yes, when played well, the bodhran sounds nice. But this is by no means the end of it. Sounding nice is simply not enough. You should be contributing to the music. All the bodhran does is to repeat half of what a tune player contributes. Just look at this again:
http://www.nardozza.com/bodhran/triplets-sixteenths.jpg
All it is is the most tedious jig you could ever imagine. The most tedious pointless useless nonsense of a jig ever imagined. And that's bodhran playing for you. Yeah sure, if you are really good, you will be subtle with your accents and lift and drive etc. But there is nothing you can do with your drum, absolutely nothing, not one single thing you could ever hope to do that your tune player won't already be doing.
(By the way, just let me reiterate that I'm not interested in bad bodhran playing)
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Well said Mr Llig, on your earlier posts. Notation for a bodhran rates with selling the Statue of Liberty to tourists, either a joke or a massive swindle. But as I said before, there is a fortune to be made in the bodhran trade if you are an entrepreneur/thief.
Because it looks easy and offers a quick way in, some people will try anything. All of those books and videos about playing the bodhran, it is impossible to learn from those, but they still sell well.
I actually like the bodhran in Irish music. Some people don't, all a matter of taste. But the likes of "O'Neill's March" without drums is like having an AK47 without bullets, just to keep it on a military theme.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Not so sure about military themed analogies, but here goes:
Playing "O'Neill's March on the fiddle is a bit like marching around a parade ground. You can do it fine, but it's not much fun. I bet though, that playing it on the fiddle with bodhran bliss banging his drum is more like marching around a parade ground with the drill sergeant shouting in you ear. More effective maybe, but probably even less fun.
But to move to a more savoury analogy:
Playing jigs and reels is like eating the most fabulous sandwich you can imagine. Hmmmmm .... thick sliced and lightly toasted wholemeal bread made with sunflower seeds and oats, buttered. Hot seared fresh tuna steak (rare of course) with rocket and lemon and garlic mayonnaise on one side, and a coriander pesto (mashed toasted pine nuts, coriander and parmigiano) on the other.
And playing jigs and reels with a bodhran accompanying is like eating the most fabulous sandwich you can imagine, with a slice of white bread on the side.
(in fact, playing the bodhran must be like eating dry white bread while the smelling the guy next to you eating the sandwich I described above)
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Hey llig, I just dont get you, suppose I will just have to eat the dry white bread!!!!!
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by lilyot
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Helol llig, and other bodhranophobes,
In knowing that your views on this subject are well documented and seemingly entrenched I am somewhat reluctant to discuss this further but nevertheless will try and answer your points as best as I can in the spirit of constructive debate.
Actually I’m interested in bad bodhran playing in as much as, like you, I want it to become much scarcer! So for the following thoughts let’s imagine we are discussing a competent player.
To say ‘All the bodhran does is to repeat half of what a tune player contributes’ is (if I may return your expression in a different context) ‘by no means the end of the matter’. To try to quantify, in fractions, what a player contributes to any musical performance, in any genre, according to how many and what type of notes played is over simplistic. Of course I absolutely agree with you that the bodhran player has to follow the lead of the tune-smith in a sensitive and accompanying role.
In ITM the music is largely dance music and trad.dance music the world over often features a drum. It is used to underline the rhythms of the dance tunes.
Regardless that the bodhran is regarded as a relatively recent addition, this is largely its purpose in ITM today, where it underlines the rhythms that the tune-smiths are playing.
If I may, I’d like to challenge your assertion that ‘there is not one single thing you could ever hope to do to that your tune player won’t already be doing’.
I’m not being flippant, but it’s obvious that there is at least one single thing that the bodhran can do and that is to add the sound of the drum itself. This contributes to the texture, and texture in music has a part to play in the sound of any musical group as it helps give variety.
For an analogy, the use of the the bodhran in ITM to underline rhythm with its distinctive timbre is akin to using a polarising filter on a lens to enhance the colours of the (musical) image.
So that’s part of my take on the use of the bodhran in a session.
The problems arrive with those who don’t know how, what or when to play it.
Like you I’m dismayed (you might say something more caustic!) when I hear overloud, overused, arrhythmic bodhran playing; 9/8 slip jigs played as 6/8 jigs and the inappropriate use of pitch changes which detract from the tonality of the music etc. etc.
It seems to me that these people more than any other instrumentalist need as much help as possible to understand the purpose of the instrument and how to play it within some sort of discipline (in the broad sense of the word).
The bodhran notation that started this thread is only part of this discipline but (before you bite my head off) is probably only for those few bodhran players who read the dots.
I have not seen these particular notations but I have seen similar. Their purpose is provide a practice regime, that’s all.
The jig notation to which you refer is, as you quite rightly say, a’ tedious nonsense of a jig ever imagined’. Well it would be if the tonal shifts were excluded! Seriously though, nobody would present that for a performance in a session or anywhere else. Its purpose is to try out different sticking techniques using a rhythmical pattern and pitch shifts. Why you may ask? Well, practice gives stick control and the pitch shifting can be used occasionally and for solos etc. But nobody is claiming it to be any more than an aid to be used with all the usual elements that make good practice.
But I welcome all efforts which offer enlightenment whether it be listening (that is the most important of course) discussion, demonstration, day courses, weekly courses, literature, magic or divine inspiration! It’s all grist to the mill and you can choose what works best for you. But, please bodhranists, do something if you need to improve. Do nothing if you are already at the pinnacle but please don’t be disparaging and discouraging to those who take any or all of the options.
The bodhran is now an established part of the ITM session scene and while I can acknowledge that not everyone likes it, stating this personal dislike at every opportunity on this board in the hope the drum and its exponents will disappear off the face of the earth is as futile as was Canute with the tide.
That is why I offered up a plea for more constructive and positive responses to queries about bodhrans rather than the predictable but tiresome slagging off. It is not constructive and we are still left with bad bodhran players which spoil it for everyone including the good players who get tarred with the same brush. Better to assist the bad, praise the good (admittedly this does happen here) and let’s work towards improving the situation for the benefit of all at the session.
Best wishes,
Gran
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
here we go again then
paragraph 1: I love the spirit of constructive debate
par 2: I'm not interested in bad bodhran playing. I'll only discuss good bodhran playing.
par 3: There is nothing more to music than what notes, when, where and why - and what do they sound like. A bodhran does not play any notes where there are not notes already. They just sound different. The sandwich analogy stands. The bodhran is merely bread. The tunes are a sandwich
par 4: You are saying here that because other musics the world over feature a drum, so should Irish music. You'll have to do better than that.
par 5: Yes, I agree, the drum sounds different. But that's all it does. Is that enough? For some it is and that's fine. But it's important for anyone who wants to play the drum to realise this. To realise that they can do everything possible on the drum from within the tune itself and ask themselves, is the mere addition of an extra texture worth it? In other words, if percussion is your thing, play the tunes.
par 6: A filter does not enhance, it blocks. This is a very important distinction. A bodhran does not enhance the rhythm of the tune, it obscures what the tune is doing, just like a filter. It's a good analogy.
par 7: see 2
par 8: see 2
par 9: see 2
par 10: The enlightenment I'm offering is that if you are at the pinnacle of bodhran playing, take all you have learned to the next level. Keep all your hard won appreciation of the rhythms of this music, put your drum away, and transfer to putting pitches in your notes. If you really are a good drummer, you'd make a better tune player than most.
par 11: The drip drip against the thing is very important. It's very important to keep it up. You never know, there maybe someone out there who will actually put away their bodhran and learn some tunes. Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't it be great if Lilyot put away the drum and filled that bread with something succulent?
par 12: see all of the above.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Hello llig,
Paras 1 and 2 don't quite get that. Sorry
Para 3 A bodhran does play notes where the tune plays quarter notes it plays eighths etc but this 'my notes are better than your notes suits the playground mentality of your responses throughout. There is also a whole lot more to music than your little list. if you bothered to read my post I fully acknowledge the supporting role of the instrument but if you took the time to read it it might spoil your rant.
Para 4. I never said 'should'. It does though. You'll have to do.
better than this!
Para 5 texture is important. it's what the drum adds here. I've been at pains to point out the accompanying nature of its place in music ,
but again you've ignored this to keep your frustrated rant on track..
Para 6 maybe not a good anology but whatever happens the drum underpins and enhances the music and changes its focus on to the rhythm which a lot of people find attractive.
Para 789 Me too.
Para 10 How do you know I don't play tunes? That kind of prejudicial assumption weaken your arguments.
Para 11 The drip is corrosive, and damaging. Be positive and cheer up!
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
ha ha, who's ranting?
I haven't got time for any more of this now, but you'd be surprised with my stamina for it.
Couple of quickies though:
I liked it when you retracted your filter analogy.
And it's funny that you thought number ten was meant for you in particular. Was it because you read, "if you are at the pinnacle of bodhran playing"? ha ha. I'll be more careful next time - "if you one is at the pinnacle ... "
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
And ... what is there to music that is not what notes, when, where, why - and what do they sound like?
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Amazing,
"What i play is better than what you play......Blah blah blah blah"
There seems to be a serious superiority complex to ITM from what i can see on this site.
"i can be partof ITM because i play it well, and i have trained long and hard to get here so i have the right to be a B*olloX."
Everybody at some stage picked up their choice of instrument for the first time, a i bet all i have that not one of them were fantastic on it. People dont like the bodhran because you get all types trying to become a part of ITM by playing it, trying to become a member of the best music club in the world and Most people are the managing director! Well in their heads anyway.
The bodhran is an irish Percussion instrument, nothing more nothing less, whenplayed well it enhances music when played badly, ruins it.
Constructive criticism if far more helpful than "go away"
try these,
"try practising for a few more months and come back then"
"try to only come in when the music changes" etc
Some people just suck!
And they always will!
Bate away!
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by iluvpints
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Illig (and some others here)
I think, at the risk of speaking for Bodhran Bliss and Gran Cassa, that what people who obviously 'get' bodhran playing -- AND the amazing possibilities inherent in its sounds [if played well] and offerings in terms of giving lift [lift that, admittedly, the melody instruments are imparting *already* -- if played well -- but that a good percussionist can *enhance* without getting in the way or adding another 'layer' that takes away from the melody line] -- are saying is that a bodhran in senstive hands, played well is indeed a MUSICAL instrument....as much as a fiddle or anything else. I might even dare to say -- and perhaps BB -- will back me up, is that a truly good bodhran player will if not create some 'melody' of his/her own can and will follow the melody on the drum. It is possible with today's drums to do so...as you no doubt yourself no Illig. So I'm not sure what the problem is here.
Look, I took up fiddle so I could also appreciate the dilemma and 'truly' felt I would fit in with ItM'ers. I'm in year 9 of that. I am the first to say that playing a melody instrument well is insanely hard. Bodhran was not so hard for me, but that's because I played percussion since a kid. So I can see both sides of it. I'll be honest and say that IF I JUST played bodhran I might even get a tad bored...which is why I took up fiddle. I understand what you're saying as a melody instrument player, but I'm here to tell you that a good senstive bodhran player has much to offer [not take away from] those who *carry the melody torch*.
Lighten up people -- or is that grow up?
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
forgive a few typos in above...i was impassioned! lol. and busy beating the drum....
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Cheers mtodd,
Seems you understand me but can put it in fewer words. I was trying to be concilliatory in my missive but it doesnt' seem to be reciprocated by some people. So basic verbal jabbing is resorted to. That's ok , I can rough it with the best!
liig, I've no time for this one either but to rejoin you on your last couple of points. 'If you one is at the pinnacle' is something you wrote after you said you'd have to be more careful! I love the irony of that as I'm sure you do!
What is there to music ? etc. You missed out how? and who? for starters!
Bye now,
Gran
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Gran
It's funny eh? I always thought good musicians were particularly good at *listening* -- esp. important in a session setting is it not?
Apparently yours and BB's words, and of others who reason well and thoughtfully on this list, are falling on -- dare I say -- *deaf* ears?
...so I wonder what that says? 'nuff said. ;)
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Im another one who doesnt get this anti- Bodhran stuff. OK any instruments played badly can be a problem. That certainly includes fiddles. A bodhran played well is a great addition to a session. Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that some people cant keep time and refuse to consider that possibility? To demean them selves and actually listen to the drummer is beneath them! As both percussionist and tunesmith i understend how the rhythm plays itself on the drum . While on the fiddle it doesnt.This is to do with the bounce of the skin and the physically large movements involved.
I wonder if these anti bodhran people can play in time, we have no evidence to suggest they can. I dont think they actually understand the first thing about drumming, rhythm . That is why they hate the drum.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
"how" = what notes, when, where, why - and what do they sound like.
And "who" is not important.
"the rhythm plays itself on the drum . While on the fiddle it doesn't". Nonsense
mtodd, I liked your post. Thoughtful intelligent, good tone. And there is much to agree with. I've never been anti bodhran, it's just that if you take away the mere timbre of it, at its best, it's simply pointless.
If I could re-iterate my caveat: just because I've never enjoyed a tune with a bodhran, doesn't mean I never will.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
This speaks volumes
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14955
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by domnull
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Ilig.
That's true...without timbre & dynamics [and of course mixing up the beats] you might as well play a pizza box.
My reply to anyone who asks [of the bodhran...and plenty do...usually the punters who you just KNOW you're going to see next week playing a drum with a Guinness logo on it]:
"Is that instrument hard to play?"
To which I replay, "Not at all.... Unless you want to play it well."
Sadly, many do not. I'll concede your point on that score Ilig...
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
sorry, "reply"
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Why is that nonesense? Are you saying the rhythm plays itself on the fiddle ? Because it does on the drum.
The bounce of the stick with a minicscule flick continues the rhythm. Its actually quite difficult to play out of time for a good drummer, you have to actively stop the tipper. Now, unless you are bouncing the bow on the string with detache that is not the case with the fiddle. Are you a good bodhran player? because if not, what makes you think you can comment with any accuracy?
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
"...the rhythm plays itself on the drum ... ... This is to do with the bounce of the skin and the physically large movements involved"
"The bounce of the stick with a minicscule flick continues the rhythm. Its actually quite difficult to play out of time for a good drummer, you have to actively stop the tipper."
Well put. Exactly. That's the problem with it.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by david_h
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Quote from "The Bodhran, A practical Introduction", by Michael O Suilleabhain : "The principal of random play in music is that every instrument lends itself to certain rhythmic, melodic or harmonic patterns. These are determined by the construction of the instrument (which in turn is affected by the musical demands of the musician) interacting with the accepted method of playing (holding the instrument etc). In the case of the bodhran, once the secret of the hand position has been unfolded and a basic facility is mastered, then the player finds that certain rhythms happen almost by accident"
Yes, that's the problem.
But, to be, fair he goes on " 'Going with' the instrument is as important at this stage as going against it will be when you advance in technical ability".
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by david_h
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Mr Llig thinks the bodhran is pointless, it is as simple as that. Accept his viewpoint, you do not have to agree with it.
Mr Molloy likes the bodhran, thinks it adds something. Accept his viewpoint, you do not have to agree with it.
And Mr Llig and Mr Molloy are both melody players, of equal status.
As I said, some people like the drum, some do not.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: different strokes...
'bouncing the bow on the string with detache'
can anyone perform this feat?
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
LOL, Dave, that's not easy, is it, bouncing the bow on the string while remaining in constant contact with the string, eh?
Not that you have to leave the string to produce rhythm and pulse on a fiddle.....
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
I was thinking about that one while I was out diddling this evening. You use ... sorry ... One uses the spring of the bow. It's how you play the fiddle for christ's sake.
Ionannas says that they bodhran players use the bounce of the stick to get the rhythm and this can't be done of the fiddle?
AAAAArrrrggghhhh
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Just to be clear, biggus dave's point is that "detache" means keeping the hair on the string.
C'mon Michael, eveyone knows that you can't play rhythm on a fiddle....
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
llig
'How' you play a note is important in music and IS as relevant as when, why, where and what. 'How' covers attack, dynamics and yes, spirit.
Who is important -I prefer music played by people rather than machines for example.
By the way as a matter of interest. Who made your bodhran?
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Hee hee. Or if you prefer - Which make is your bodhran?
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
How dose one play? One decides to play what notes, when, where and why, with concideration to what they sound like.
That more than covers attack, dynamics and spirit.
When I say I'm not interested in who is playing I'm refering to the lack of ego in it. The music stands on its own and is juged on only that. Theere is no caveat to who is playing it. (But notice I say who, not what)
I;m not familiar with that word, "detache", but it's very relevant to diddley music. Great rhythm and energy is gained without lifting the bow off the strings. It IS the bounce of the stick.
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
So then the word 'How' will cover all the previous categories. Good.
Seriously now. I am interested in your make of bodhran. I ask because you said you own one.
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
I dunno, I've not looked at it for twenty years. I've never banged it. Someone gave it to me
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
... don't know why I kept it. Though I was thinking of painting a red circle round the edge of the skin and a diagonal red stripe. Then sticking it up on the wall of the pub with an 8" nail right through the centre.
(there may be some subliminal reference there to the study of the religions of Ireland, I'm not sure)
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Well llig. To quote you;
“ I've never been anti-bodhran.” And “Just because I've never enjoyed a tune with a bodhran, doesn't mean I never will”.
To help bring about this epihany why not donate your unused bodhran to a local children's music group or something like.
I know that in Edinburgh, for example, there is an annual festival called 'Bodhran Bash' which sees people of all ages coming together for workshops, instruction and concerts with other instrumentalists. Lessons at all levels of competency are given by respected players. How the instrument is used in sesions including session etiquette is also discussed .
It's this sort of enterprise which encourages good bodhran playing that I was asking everyone at the Session to support rather than deride.
Wouldn't it be lovely if a player who started out using your donated drum became the player who eventually caused you to enjoy a tune with a bodhran?
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Sorry, I meant 'Bodhran Beat':
http://www.ceilidhculture.co.uk/eventinfo.asp?eventID=326
Too late for this year but maybe next?
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
bloody hell, that's my mind made up the. I've got to nail that fecker to the wall before next year's
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
Just be sure to use some really nasty adhesive as well, and perhaps plumbing straps, duct tape, lock and chains--anything--to make sure it stays on the wall, eh? Wouldn't want it falling into the wrong (any) hands)....
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
I knew you'd soften your attitude eventually!
# Posted on June 12th 2008 by Gran Cassa
Re: Double Whammy! Bodhrans and Notation!
ah-just to clarify: Will,of CPT reknown, does indeed have my meaning re the detache thing.
i only raised that matter as the poster of that quoteappeared to be a stickler for accuracy ...but then came out with that phrase.
that was all.
# Posted on June 13th 2008 by biggus dave