I freely admit the depth of my knowledge is limited, but for the benefit of and for the curiosity of non flute playing members, for keyed simple-system flutes you can get either block-mounted or pin-mounted keys. (To the best of my knowledge most Boehm flutes are pin mounted but I do believe you can get block mounts on the lower stack for eg, Bb, on very old Boehm systems.) You've probably seen either or both (block and/or pin) but never gave them a second glance.
Pin-mounted keys are where the keys are mounted onto little metal pins embedded into the flute body, and supporting the fulcrum for the lever of the key.
Block-mounted keys are where the keys are mounted onto blocks of the wood which are part of the structure of the flute, that is, the block is carved out of the same piece of wood which the main tube is made from. For this reason, that greater craft is required in the manufacturing process, they are, or were, more expensive. Also it seems most modern simple system makers, egs, Chris Wilkes, Terry McGee and Hammy Hamilton, make them block mounted.
For 19th century flutes block mounts tended to be favoured by English makers while pin mounts were preferred in Germany.
Please correct or refine any of the bold assertions made above.
Some of you may be aware that I am in the process of trying to sell a couple of old blackwood simple system flutes, one pin mounted and one block mounted (and some others). I have put a bigger price tag on the block mounted one, as I am under the impression that it will hold its value better (it plays a bit better also {but not *because* it is block mounted, at least I don't think}, but maybe of a more mellow tone.)
However I am posting this thread as much to learn what those with more expertise in these matters might have to say about this, than to explore the topic which I don't think we have looked at until now. And, of course to ask, is there any advantage or disadvantage related to either method of construction? Thanks for your "constructive" comments.
I prefer block mounting. It's both an aesthetic preference, and a functional one, as it give me somewhere to put a spare finger or two. Its a comfort and balance thing. Springing is usually with a leaf spring, which gives a particular feel, although my Hammy Hamilton flute uses coil springs. Post-mounts might use a coil spring or a wire spring (similar to Boehm flutes).
Disadvantages to block mounting:
1. They can crack or break off, and replacement is best left to a flute maker.
2. Excessive and careless oiling can result in gunk in the key slot and cause the key to stick.
3. Swelling of the key slot can also cause a key to stick.
Advantage to post mounting:
1. Usually can be added to existing keyless flutes
2. Often cheaper initial cost.
3. Can often be maintained, repaired or replaced by a conventional woodwind/brass repair person.
Notice that the disadvantages/advantages I've listed haven't changed my own choice.
Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about. However (you have been warned!), I can't see why the mounting system would make any substantial difference to the sound. I have played good and bad examples of both types. The thickness of block mounts adds a slight extra constraint to the positioning of the keys (in addition to the obvious constraint that the tone hole has to be in the right place). This means that the lever part of the key, the bit that you push down, may be a little shorter on block-mounted flutes than on-pin mounted flutes, for the same overall length of key.
I'm not sure the blocks and flute all have to be carved out of the same piece of wood. Would it really make a difference if it was a simple system keyless 6 hole flute with the blocks carved and glued on later? There's some really good glu available these days
As far as I know they are carved from the same piece of wood. This may be different for modern flutes though. Thanks for the comments so far (except one.)
Kevin said it - I prefer block mounted too due to aesthetics. The post mounting often has a bad reputation due to it having been used on lots of cheaper flutes in the past (a lot of mediocre to poor "German" flutes of the late 19th Century...). It does however do a sterling job on millions of Boehm flutes around the world, both metal and wooden.
And modifying the tension on needle springs is dead easy too.
As an aside, and against the background of grenadilla supplies being threatened, one should note that a post-mounted keyed flute can be made out of a smaller billet of wood than a block mounted one...
Pin mounted, but with the pins themselves mounted on a plate rather than directly on the wood is a somewhat posher variant that you sometimes see too.
Without wishing to be picky, I think the stock is turned on a lathe, not carved! I was looking at a flute recently with block mounts and the craftmanship was superb - there was just a great aesthetic about the lines and curves of the mounts.
Yes, I should have said turned. But the blocks in the older instruments are first turned as protruding circles all the way round the instrument and then the excess is hand carved away. My question was, why not turn the whole body to its conical shape in one go? Then glue carved blocks on to it later. Even years later. You could get the maker to add one key at a time as you get used to it.
The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is developing/developed a really splendid whistle with a reverse conical bore. I'm asking him about keys and he say's he'll get round to it later, once the instrument itself is perfected. (It's pretty much there actually)
Just a guess: The conical piece expands while playing, however the glued-on block does not in the same way, and the glued area exerts stress on the piece, which is of course no problem if the block is a part of the conical piece... but as i said, just guessing here
Glueing on a block is indeed a standard repair when these blocks do split off, so I Imagine with some careful matching of seasoning at the time of gluing it ought to be possible for retrofitting. Probably even simpler at the time of first manufacture. I'm sure Nigel knows all about sticking new wood and old wood together anyway.
He's using grained woods though and cosmetically, matching the grain could be a bit tricky. And some rethinking about the position of the keys might be a good idea for holding the flute/whistle vertically. Maybe a thumb rest for the right thumb (as for a clarinet)? I think getting the instrument right acoustically first is definitely the right way round to develop it.
And they're nice whistles too - I tried a couple when I was in his shop last summer and I'm sure he's improved them since. I'm too attached to my flute to get a low whistle though - I don't find that there is much I can do with a whistle that I can't do with a flute too.
Actually, in regards to the flutes on sale, I should naturally say that an original XXXXX so and so with YYY mounted keys is practically worthless in the current economic climate, so send it to me if you're too emabrassed to be seen owning it...
And no, a simple system flute does not refer to the lack of keys. A simple definition of the simple system flute is that it was the mainstream flute in Europe before the modern Boehm flute took over (and is therefore "simple" by comparison). With lots of transitional models in between...
"simple system" is a name, not a description. Another description might be one where fingers directly cover holes on a conical bore tube with or without extra keys. The modern keyless flute is a fairly modern development and has little in common with the rennaissance flute which was the last historical predecessor with _no_ keys. It comes from the observations that a. most Irish style players don't use the keys much anyway and b. keyless flutes can be made cheaper and c. there is something aesthetically appealing about a keyless flute (in a sort of celtic zen way...).
Chris, nigel's whistles are unrecognisable from 12 months ago. It's like a different instrument. I had number 1 last summer made from mopane. It had a lovely warm tone but was very quiet. The black wood one I have at the moment is twice as loud with a really flute like buzz and a very strong bottom D. I know it will never be a flute, but I just don't have the time at the moment to learn a flute.
Hmm... I'll have to drop in again at his workshop next time I'm over. I recently had a few severe bad lip days (knee in the teeth during Judo training) which stopped me playing any flutes and sent me back to the whistles until it had healed, so perhaps low whistles do have a place...
The only metal I want to see on a flute are the keys and the rings. Makes a lot of difference to me in owning a fine instrument, but from a playing perspective, I don't imagine it makes any difference.
Pin- or Block-mounted?
Pin- or Block-mounted?
I freely admit the depth of my knowledge is limited, but for the benefit of and for the curiosity of non flute playing members, for keyed simple-system flutes you can get either block-mounted or pin-mounted keys. (To the best of my knowledge most Boehm flutes are pin mounted but I do believe you can get block mounts on the lower stack for eg, Bb, on very old Boehm systems.) You've probably seen either or both (block and/or pin) but never gave them a second glance.
Pin-mounted keys are where the keys are mounted onto little metal pins embedded into the flute body, and supporting the fulcrum for the lever of the key.
Block-mounted keys are where the keys are mounted onto blocks of the wood which are part of the structure of the flute, that is, the block is carved out of the same piece of wood which the main tube is made from. For this reason, that greater craft is required in the manufacturing process, they are, or were, more expensive. Also it seems most modern simple system makers, egs, Chris Wilkes, Terry McGee and Hammy Hamilton, make them block mounted.
For 19th century flutes block mounts tended to be favoured by English makers while pin mounts were preferred in Germany.
Please correct or refine any of the bold assertions made above.
Some of you may be aware that I am in the process of trying to sell a couple of old blackwood simple system flutes, one pin mounted and one block mounted (and some others). I have put a bigger price tag on the block mounted one, as I am under the impression that it will hold its value better (it plays a bit better also {but not *because* it is block mounted, at least I don't think}, but maybe of a more mellow tone.)
However I am posting this thread as much to learn what those with more expertise in these matters might have to say about this, than to explore the topic which I don't think we have looked at until now. And, of course to ask, is there any advantage or disadvantage related to either method of construction? Thanks for your "constructive" comments.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Yes.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Ron Foreman
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
prick
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
I prefer block mounting. It's both an aesthetic preference, and a functional one, as it give me somewhere to put a spare finger or two. Its a comfort and balance thing. Springing is usually with a leaf spring, which gives a particular feel, although my Hammy Hamilton flute uses coil springs. Post-mounts might use a coil spring or a wire spring (similar to Boehm flutes).
Disadvantages to block mounting:
1. They can crack or break off, and replacement is best left to a flute maker.
2. Excessive and careless oiling can result in gunk in the key slot and cause the key to stick.
3. Swelling of the key slot can also cause a key to stick.
Advantage to post mounting:
1. Usually can be added to existing keyless flutes
2. Often cheaper initial cost.
3. Can often be maintained, repaired or replaced by a conventional woodwind/brass repair person.
Notice that the disadvantages/advantages I've listed haven't changed my own choice.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by kkrell
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
I don't care if it's block or pin mounted as long as the keys work well.
Eric
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Jayhawk
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Leaf springs are much easier to maintain; you can replace
them or modify the tension yourself.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Hup
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Warning: I don't really know what I'm talking about. However (you have been warned!), I can't see why the mounting system would make any substantial difference to the sound. I have played good and bad examples of both types. The thickness of block mounts adds a slight extra constraint to the positioning of the keys (in addition to the obvious constraint that the tone hole has to be in the right place). This means that the lever part of the key, the bit that you push down, may be a little shorter on block-mounted flutes than on-pin mounted flutes, for the same overall length of key.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
PS, I only notice a problem with this on the G# of some block-mounted flutes. Unfortunately, it's really the most important key of the flute.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
PPS, The F nat is pretty important too, before anyone else says it.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
I'm not sure the blocks and flute all have to be carved out of the same piece of wood. Would it really make a difference if it was a simple system keyless 6 hole flute with the blocks carved and glued on later? There's some really good glu available these days
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
As far as I know they are carved from the same piece of wood. This may be different for modern flutes though. Thanks for the comments so far (except one.)
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Kevin said it - I prefer block mounted too due to aesthetics. The post mounting often has a bad reputation due to it having been used on lots of cheaper flutes in the past (a lot of mediocre to poor "German" flutes of the late 19th Century...). It does however do a sterling job on millions of Boehm flutes around the world, both metal and wooden.
And modifying the tension on needle springs is dead easy too.
As an aside, and against the background of grenadilla supplies being threatened, one should note that a post-mounted keyed flute can be made out of a smaller billet of wood than a block mounted one...
Pin mounted, but with the pins themselves mounted on a plate rather than directly on the wood is a somewhat posher variant that you sometimes see too.
Chris.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Without wishing to be picky, I think the stock is turned on a lathe, not carved! I was looking at a flute recently with block mounts and the craftmanship was superb - there was just a great aesthetic about the lines and curves of the mounts.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Yes, I should have said turned. But the blocks in the older instruments are first turned as protruding circles all the way round the instrument and then the excess is hand carved away. My question was, why not turn the whole body to its conical shape in one go? Then glue carved blocks on to it later. Even years later. You could get the maker to add one key at a time as you get used to it.
The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is developing/developed a really splendid whistle with a reverse conical bore. I'm asking him about keys and he say's he'll get round to it later, once the instrument itself is perfected. (It's pretty much there actually)
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Just a guess: The conical piece expands while playing, however the glued-on block does not in the same way, and the glued area exerts stress on the piece, which is of course no problem if the block is a part of the conical piece... but as i said, just guessing here
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by TMB
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Glueing on a block is indeed a standard repair when these blocks do split off, so I Imagine with some careful matching of seasoning at the time of gluing it ought to be possible for retrofitting. Probably even simpler at the time of first manufacture. I'm sure Nigel knows all about sticking new wood and old wood together anyway.
He's using grained woods though and cosmetically, matching the grain could be a bit tricky. And some rethinking about the position of the keys might be a good idea for holding the flute/whistle vertically. Maybe a thumb rest for the right thumb (as for a clarinet)? I think getting the instrument right acoustically first is definitely the right way round to develop it.
And they're nice whistles too - I tried a couple when I was in his shop last summer and I'm sure he's improved them since. I'm too attached to my flute to get a low whistle though - I don't find that there is much I can do with a whistle that I can't do with a flute too.
Chris.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
prick
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
You literally asked for it.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Ron Foreman
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Oh God I'm so scared.
Anyway thanks for the info Chris. Interesting stuff.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Isn't a simple system flute, by definition, a flute without keys?
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by steve98070
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Actually, in regards to the flutes on sale, I should naturally say that an original XXXXX so and so with YYY mounted keys is practically worthless in the current economic climate, so send it to me if you're too emabrassed to be seen owning it...
Chris.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
And no, a simple system flute does not refer to the lack of keys. A simple definition of the simple system flute is that it was the mainstream flute in Europe before the modern Boehm flute took over (and is therefore "simple" by comparison). With lots of transitional models in between...
"simple system" is a name, not a description. Another description might be one where fingers directly cover holes on a conical bore tube with or without extra keys. The modern keyless flute is a fairly modern development and has little in common with the rennaissance flute which was the last historical predecessor with _no_ keys. It comes from the observations that a. most Irish style players don't use the keys much anyway and b. keyless flutes can be made cheaper and c. there is something aesthetically appealing about a keyless flute (in a sort of celtic zen way...).
Chris
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Chris, nigel's whistles are unrecognisable from 12 months ago. It's like a different instrument. I had number 1 last summer made from mopane. It had a lovely warm tone but was very quiet. The black wood one I have at the moment is twice as loud with a really flute like buzz and a very strong bottom D. I know it will never be a flute, but I just don't have the time at the moment to learn a flute.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Hmm... I'll have to drop in again at his workshop next time I'm over. I recently had a few severe bad lip days (knee in the teeth during Judo training) which stopped me playing any flutes and sent me back to the whistles until it had healed, so perhaps low whistles do have a place...
Chris.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
What is a prick-mounted flute? Is this a derivative of the pin mount?
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Oh God I'm so scared.
Anyway thanks for the info Chris. Interesting stuff.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Well, for an old worn-out duff like yourself, you have a very nasty mouth. Don't think you can back it up, though.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Ron Foreman
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Oh shut up will you.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
Jeremy, time for another sin-binning I think.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Hup
Re: Pin- or Block-mounted?
The only metal I want to see on a flute are the keys and the rings. Makes a lot of difference to me in owning a fine instrument, but from a playing perspective, I don't imagine it makes any difference.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Ailin