apologies to Jerry Mac for lifting his thread title, but it reminded me that I've been working on a tune called Coleman's Fling that has a strathspey-ish run in it that I can't make sound un-horrific. It's this:
(3Bcd (3cde (3fed (3efg
I watched Tommy People's strathspey video on youtube for the umpteenth time and he mini-single bows those runs uzi-style. I can't seem to make the dang flang thing fling!
Same advise as ever. Take it slow. As slow as you can play it keeping in time. If it's so slow it sounds like a slow air then that's as slow as it needs to be.
This is really the same thread as "do you do trebles upu or dud. You need to be able to do both.
It just occurred to me that I could put small viola strings on my fiddle then video myself playing slowly, then speed it up. I'll start with playing it more slowly anyway - I was looking at some videos of the dance, and at the rate I've been trying to playing this fling, I would kill those dancers, or at least wind them severely.
Interesting that Tommy Peoples clip from 1981 - he doesn't play like that any more. I mean, he's changed his technique. There, his left hand was all scrunched up against the body of the fiddle, and he audibly (and visibly) had trouble with parts of the tune. Nowadays, his left wrist is much more relaxed and in pretty much a 'classical' position.
Don't get me wrong - he's always been great, whatever. It's just that he's even better now, and I'm interested that even a great like him has felt it necessary to 'improve' his technique in order to do so.
I'd love to have the same trouble with those tunes that TP did, LOL.
I heard he changed his left-hand position because of tendon problems caused by the wrist being scrunched against the heel of the neck - if true, then we can assume it wasn't because he thought he needed to improve Personally I prefer the way TP played in the 1970s, fantastic though he is today.
What's interesting about the way he plays those runs of triplets in hornpipes and strathspeys is that they aren't triplets in fact, but two semiquavers followed by a quaver. I love the effect and in my experience anyway they are much harder to play that way than as triplets proper.
I think they are perhaps not truly two semiquavers followed by a quaver either, but somewhere in between that and even triplets.
Last time I saw Tommy People play, a small club 6 months or so ago, I was with a mate who expressed his dissapointment that he didn't do any "machinegun bowing". I wasn't dissapointed at all. Nothing would have onnoyed me more that hearing some of that stuff and the accompanying "whoops" and "cheers" from the punters. I think his playing now is much more interesting
I wouldn't describe it as "machinegun bowing" either. That's why I quoted it in parentheses.
And yes, mesmerising now. I particularly love the phrasing, or rather, the very specific and odd lengths of phrases. Where lesser players play chunks chopped up by bar lines, he plays chunks dictated by melody and variation. Going back to a previous thread, it really isn't dance music any more. It would be very difficult to dance to, way way too subtle.
That post wound me up. "demands"? hmmm.
"authenticity of the performance"? hmmm
I agree however, that with those kind of tunes, single bowing those runs is "the" way to do it, and that you must learn how to do it that way if you want to play those tunes. But once you've done that, mix it up, slur it.
Machinegun bowing
Machinegun bowing
apologies to Jerry Mac for lifting his thread title, but it reminded me that I've been working on a tune called Coleman's Fling that has a strathspey-ish run in it that I can't make sound un-horrific. It's this:
(3Bcd (3cde (3fed (3efg
I watched Tommy People's strathspey video on youtube for the umpteenth time and he mini-single bows those runs uzi-style. I can't seem to make the dang flang thing fling!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by airport
Re: Machinegun bowing
Same advise as ever. Take it slow. As slow as you can play it keeping in time. If it's so slow it sounds like a slow air then that's as slow as it needs to be.
This is really the same thread as "do you do trebles upu or dud. You need to be able to do both.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun bowing
but remember also, you don't have to bow every note. You can do the whole lot in one single bow if you want. And/or mix it up.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun bowing
Here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEFlZLA4Trc&hl=en
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Machinegun bowing
To do it exactly like him? Well, he's Tommy Peoples. [shrug]
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Machinegun bowing
Much as I think tommy peoples is the bee's knees, I prefer the late great Johnny Cuningham for this kind of stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGxWWctBtw
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun bowing
Good stuff!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Machinegun bowing
ah yes, good stuff - I'll post the rest of that fling later - doesn't seem to be here...
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by airport
Re: Machinegun bowing
It just occurred to me that I could put small viola strings on my fiddle then video myself playing slowly, then speed it up. I'll start with playing it more slowly anyway - I was looking at some videos of the dance, and at the rate I've been trying to playing this fling, I would kill those dancers, or at least wind them severely.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by airport
Re: Machinegun bowing
i'm just intrigued by the notion of small viola strings.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Machinegun bowing
What? Just play the easy ones and keep practicing. You won't even want to play that tune someday. Why do the young want to run before they can walk?
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Farr
Re: Machinegun bowing
It's not that hard to get the rapid bowing. The hard part is
coordinating it with your fingers and string changes.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Hup
Re: Machinegun bowing
It's a very intresting subject. See if you bow the Machinegun every thing will be fine
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by jesusman
Re: Machinegun bowing
Great performance by the Cunninghams:
http://play.rbn.com/?url=kennedy/kennedyg2/g2demand/07032003_1800_MSN.rm&proto=rtsp
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Machinegun bowing
Interesting that Tommy Peoples clip from 1981 - he doesn't play like that any more. I mean, he's changed his technique. There, his left hand was all scrunched up against the body of the fiddle, and he audibly (and visibly) had trouble with parts of the tune. Nowadays, his left wrist is much more relaxed and in pretty much a 'classical' position.
Don't get me wrong - he's always been great, whatever. It's just that he's even better now, and I'm interested that even a great like him has felt it necessary to 'improve' his technique in order to do so.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Machinegun bowing
In a video on TG4 I noticed he now uses a shoulder rest with
a lot of height in it. This would free up his left hand more.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Hup
Re: Machinegun bowing
"I'm interested that even a great like him has felt it necessary to 'improve' his technique in order to do so"
That's kind of a defining characteristic of greatness, don't you think?
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Machinegun bowing
Probably so, Kennedy.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Machinegun bowing
I'd love to have the same trouble with those tunes that TP did, LOL.
I heard he changed his left-hand position because of tendon problems caused by the wrist being scrunched against the heel of the neck - if true, then we can assume it wasn't because he thought he needed to improve
Personally I prefer the way TP played in the 1970s, fantastic though he is today.
What's interesting about the way he plays those runs of triplets in hornpipes and strathspeys is that they aren't triplets in fact, but two semiquavers followed by a quaver. I love the effect and in my experience anyway they are much harder to play that way than as triplets proper.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Machinegun bowing
I think they are perhaps not truly two semiquavers followed by a quaver either, but somewhere in between that and even triplets.
Last time I saw Tommy People play, a small club 6 months or so ago, I was with a mate who expressed his dissapointment that he didn't do any "machinegun bowing". I wasn't dissapointed at all. Nothing would have onnoyed me more that hearing some of that stuff and the accompanying "whoops" and "cheers" from the punters. I think his playing now is much more interesting
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun bowing
Whatever the note value, I've never thought of TP's triplets as "machinegun bowing" - very fast, ver clean, yes, but by no means aggressive.
But I've heard quite a few banjo players whose "music" brings machineguns to mind.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Machinegun bowing
His playing nowadays is interesting, right enough. Mesmerising, in fact.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Machinegun bowing
I wouldn't describe it as "machinegun bowing" either. That's why I quoted it in parentheses.
And yes, mesmerising now. I particularly love the phrasing, or rather, the very specific and odd lengths of phrases. Where lesser players play chunks chopped up by bar lines, he plays chunks dictated by melody and variation. Going back to a previous thread, it really isn't dance music any more. It would be very difficult to dance to, way way too subtle.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun bowing
"Chunks dictated by melody" Hmmm yes, like free verse at times.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Machinegun bowing
I found a clip of John Carty playing Coleman's Fling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh8jqGtHue4
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Machinegun bowing
Carty's playing can be machine-like alright. I think I like him
best on the tenor guitar where he sounds magical.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Hup
Re: Machinegun bowing
but remember also, you don't have to bow every note. You can do the whole lot in one single bow if you want. And/or mix it up.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
I disagree, the authenticity of the performance demands single bows in a strathspey/fling... anything less and the character is lost.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by ambassadorfish
Re: Machinegun bowing
That post wound me up. "demands"? hmmm.
"authenticity of the performance"? hmmm
I agree however, that with those kind of tunes, single bowing those runs is "the" way to do it, and that you must learn how to do it that way if you want to play those tunes. But once you've done that, mix it up, slur it.
# Posted on June 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun bowing
So the general rule of thumb shoud be 'once you've learned how to do something right, then it's okay to deliberately do it wrong'. Right okay
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by ambassadorfish
Re: Machinegun bowing
I think that works for most areas of life
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by airport
Re: Machinegun bowing
just like after you've understood the categorial imperative, you're free to run red lights late at night when no one's around
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by airport