I’m wondering if anyone could share experiences on sessions that actively limit tune sets to one or two guitar players at a time? How is it approached at your session? Does it get contentious? Etc.
Unfortunately this tends not to happen. I recall suggesting to another guitarist in a session that we play a few sets of tunes turn-about, as to my ear, together we were just making a racket and almost certainly ruining the session. The answer was a straight "NO!!!". So I went to the bar... I do sometimes on occassions, end up playing with other accompaniests, but it's something I prefer not to do.
It's musical common sense to the extreme that multiple guitars playing different chords simultaneously sound bad. Anyone who takes part in it knows full well he's making the music less pleasant for everyone else, and it's not a matter of taste... it's one thing to personally not like a certain instrument or someone's playing style, but not liking the guitar equivalent of slamming half the keys on a piano with your forearm is universal.
i would have to say yes - guitars should be limited. and limited to one. For sessions without a piano, (and you wouldnt have more than one piano playing at a session would you?) a guitar, played well, ( I.E. simple chords and a good solid beat ) is a great help; especial for the less experienced players. Our session has suffered from people who play only guitar and play all kinds of goof ball. new age, fruity, neo-celtic, "riverdance" chords that just sound awful, or people who are more solo oriented in their playing and can't keep a beat with an ensemble. Now get two or more guitar players like that and it's murder!
Fortunately our session has come to a good solution, one of us will bring along a guitar and we take turns passing it around and playing it during the evening. 3 or 4 of us are decent enough players that we can hold our own beat-wise and it's really been working out well. No one gets lumbered with having to play guitar all night. and the session doesn't get lumbered with having to listen to a bad guitarist all night . and if someone shows who only plays guitar, we let them know nicely, that we'd like it if they just play the chords "straight I IV V VI " if you please.
At the local session, there is usually only one guitarist. It is rare for there to be more than one guitarist at the local session. This is one of the reasons I was asked to bring my electronic keyboard to help "fill out" the sound and contribute to the general cacophony of the session.
greybeardd - oooooh! can I come to your session? - that sounds right up my alley. I particularly liked "fruity". The hotshot guitarists around here all seem to need to play EVERY chord they know on EVERY tune, and like you said, get two or more of them...
If it's a newbie, you really don't want to discourage them from playing (IMHO), so I think that your approach is a good one.
Anymore, at my local sesh, I usually just leave the guitar in the car until I see who's there. Luckily for me, there are a bunch of regular punters who are my friends, so I always have a good time socializing anyway, and the tunes are always great.
There are only a few folks that I feel comfortable doing the multiple guitar thing with, and they're all better than I am, but we just naturally seem to watch and listen to each other. Usually I throttle back and just play drones or bass lines or percussive bits. It can be great fun and I always learn a ton.
...sorry, I'm rambling. It seems like it always comes back to that bugaboo "Session Etiquette", knowing the tunes, and listening. . .
The reason I ask is that my trio has been hired to lead a session at a venue where people are used to a nearly anything goes approach. We’ve sometimes had two fiddlers and six or eight guitarists. I’m just trying to think this through so I’m prepared for what to say when they come in. The thing is that there are a few people learning and progressing well on guitar that I wouldn’t mind if they played along because they do it softly and don’t get in the way, there are others however who don’t quite get that…
Our regular session has one regular guitarist, who can also play the whistle and the bodrhan. My first ever instrument was the guitar, but I haven't taken one to an ITM session for years now, prefering the 'zouk. The guitarist and me tend to take turn and turn about - if he is playing rhythm I can play the tune, if I can't play the tune I can pick up the goatskin. If he is playing the tune I can also, or rhythm. There's never been anything wrong with too many people playing the tune. Two rhythm guitarists is like two bodrhans - it's over-egging the pudding. My SO also has a stratagem for when she doesn't know a tune - she can play jews' harp, spoons, bones, or the goat.
How you get these points over to other guitarists is a moot point.
PS What's the difference between a drummer and a drum machine ?
On a drum machine you only have to punch the instructions in once......
Doesn't always work with guitarists.....
Not only does a bunch of guitars sound terrible, it looks ridiculous.
The key is that you have been thrust into the leadership position. You have a greater responsibility to the venue. You have the right to tell folks how it is going to be. Be strong!
6-8 guitars to2 fiddles. Don't these guitar players see/hear something is wrong there?
If you are playing for hire and want a certain compliment of musicians, that's different and you get to select. If you are hired to lead a session, you can determine what type of session it is. Is it open or closed? What does the employer want - open or closed?
If it's open, then anything goes. If you are closing it, then just do it tactfully. Or, set up a schedule. If it's a weekly session, 3 out of 4 weeks are a select group and the 4th week is open. Just think of the best way to communicate this. Or not.
I don't think Open Session Neccessarily means Anything Goes, GrumblingYoungster. There can still be standards and the person asked by the venue to do the job can set and enforce those standards s/he determines to be right for the venue.
Hey Clayton-I'm sorry, I didn't really address your original question, and I'm afraid that I don't know what to tell you, except that if you need to have some kind of rules ("No guitarists need apply" (grin...)), make sure that the bar owner (I assume that the venue is a bar) and the staff know about and agree with them, so that you're not stuck alone being the, um, enforcer. I'm sure that there are some experienced session organizers lurking around here (Gary, whither art thou?) that can give you some good advice. Have fun, anyway.
Bob - given the density of sessions around here, your estimate is about right. . .
Pete - "How you get these points over to other guitarists is a moot point." Please explain sometime.
Cheers, all!
Open but not anything goes is what we are aiming for. We've been spreading the word that this is going to be a much more traditional session then others have been at this venue. And it's working with the more perceptive (so you mean I can't bring my 5 string banjo?) but it's not the perceptive that I'm worried about...
The key to limiting the number of guitarists is to attack the source, which would be the rampant over-breeding of guitarists. Strays are a huge problem, mainly because people don't take the time to spay or neuter their guitarists. This leads to a growing wild population that exponentially reproduces itself year after year. Thankfully, some do change into other types of musicians after some significant exposure to the music.
I do not allow more than nine, otherwise everyone wants to sing "Ten Guitars".
It doesn't really matter how many, depends on the session. Seven guitars and one fiddle isn't much use, but a big session with loads of melody players, it doesn't matter if there are four guitarists. As long as they can more or less play.
Tomw is the kind of guitarist one would hope for. He is very sensitive to what is going on. He doesn't feel like he must play and sits out if there is an over abundance of guitars enen tho he is the best git-box player who comes. Bless him, the other night he spent most of the time talking with a gentleman suffering with alzhiemers brought by his daughter, a wonderful concertina player.
To tell you the truth, I don't like more that one whistle player playing at the same time. I love my whislte, but I would rather pick up my Low-d or mandolin rather than help create the "aviary effect".
I walked into an "anything goes" situation, but have been able to turn it around a bit and the tunes have gotten better. this is what we did
1) post my Etiquette "opinions" on our site as friendly as could be.
worked pretty good, but not completely
2) in sending out emails announcing a session, I refered folks to the Etiquette opinion on the website.
Progress. But by that time, I figured the violators were either too dense or in open rebellion that a dirrect approach was appropriate.
3) Open individual communication.
That worked. More fine musicians are coming because some others decided not to come anymore.
Hey Bliss: Yup, you're right, it depends upon the number of melody players. As long as they can more or less play, like you said, and that's the rub.
Fiddler - now, cut that out! Perhaps we should start a foundation (with you and I as the highly compensated Executive Director and Staff Scientist, respectively) dedicated to the maintenance but eventual humane eradication of feral guitarist colonies.
I can just tell that it's Friday. I'm off to go dancin'.
I think it's a non starter. It's incredibly boring for any musician to have to sit out of a lot of sets, just because one or two other players of his/her instrument showed up. And as soon as you start deciding who can show up to play and who can't, it's a gig and not a session. You have to learn to go with the flow in sessions, and find a way to make the best music possible and enjoy yourself with what you have and whoever is there. I have the greatest respect for some of the really good musicians I've known who would sit down any play with just about anyone under the right circumstances... no condescention. That's what you need. Don't try to recreate the conditions of a recording studio, just go down the pub and have some fun with your mates. If you can't stand it because more than one of them plays guitar, give up the sessions and form a band.
"I think it's a non starter. It's incredibly boring for any musician to have to sit out of a lot of sets, just because one or two other players of his/her instrument showed up."
Well, we're talking about too much accompaniment here - and to put it bluntly, why should anyone think they've got the right to feck up the music for everyone else. That to me, is simply selfish.
de Selby, and others, why should you have to go with the flow? Some sessions - sessions, not gigs - are selective: exclusive not inclusive. Whether you agree or disagree with that is irrelevant, the fact is they are exclusive. Certainly in this town, that can be the case. We have been a guitar free zone for the most part for about 3 or 4 years. Mediocre guitarists (of which sadly many abound) are not made particularly welcome whereas even mediocre tunesmiths are. I don't know if that is an actual reason for their paucity, that they know better than to darken the door of the BHT (unlikely since they are not noted for their numbers having an inordinately representation of membership of MENSA), but it suits us.
de Selby doesn't have anything in his/her profile, so I will assume this person is new to sessions.
The point is, there is some work that goes into arranging and promoting sessions. I know I will protect the work that I did. You just can't put up with folks who would act like aliens in the 'war of the worlds'. That is, they show up, suck the planet dry and wreck it, than move on. Sure, one can move on and start another session. That will go good until the aliens realize that all the good musicians are now gone out of the one they wrecked and then goes off to seek them out.
Better to preserve what you started.
No one says who can come and who can't, but the responsible person can guide what is expected if one decides they will attend.
de selby seems to know how boring it is to sit out. Guitar player?
Those great players sit with anyone under the right conditions. Right conditions is the key.
One needs to look out for everybody. Some make great sacrifices to attend. Others find sessions to be critical to their mental and emotional health. Sessions provide social interaction that some people actually need. It is not just about tunes.
By the way KLM, I know what you mean about exclusive sessions. I can smell them. I've sensed that exclusive attitude on the part of musicians that weren't even that good, while others, giants by comparisons, would just sit down and play the music. Bollcks to exclusive sessions.
I play in a very famous session pub and it's very important that it's an open session. However, it's not an understatement to that not everyone is welcome.
Actually, I could use one or two more guitar players or other compers down here in South Florida!
I'll play fiddle or guitar, but if I'm the only comper, I'll comp all night. If there's another guitar player who shows up once in a while I can mix it up.
I'll also know I won't be the only guy to show up to the session, which has happened a few times.
If there is one guitarist my machine stays in its box unless its a huge session or I know the musicians well
. Am I the only one to notice that 'zouk players are more likely to take turns and generally get on than guitarists ?
Unfortunately, I play guitar. I know my instrument isn't good enough for your folk nazi clique--I mean pure drop ITM session. Your interpretation of the music is so righteous, and that you have mastered the nuances of other peoples playing from bygone days is reason enough not to violate your sacred aural space. I mean how could I expect to be accepted in your perfect musical Xanadu?
Ooga ga chukka ooga chukka... tooty flutey scoot my booty across the floor like a beagle that needs to be de-wormed...
No, it's difficult to be a guitarist around musicians who don't appreciate the instrument! "F youse all!"--to quote Mr Shane MacGowan.
I like whistles and pipes and boxes and fiddles and flutes and even bones and bodhrans. I'd never post "freakin' fiddlers are ALWAYS out of tune.! The annoying bastards. And there's too many of them in sessions and they're too loud! They're just feckin' with my strumming..."
Also, most every modern (in the last 40 years), popular ITM band has/had a guitar player. "Aye, but they only had one!" Well, they only had one piper too--if that many!
Why is it that people on this site love taking offence at the slightest thing - usually by completely misconstruing what the previous poster wrote?
The problem with too many guitarists at a session is that only the good ones, who have learned the tunes they are backing and actually listen to what the other players are doing, will sit out if the sound is getting muddy. The crap ones, who don't apparently have any sense of harmony or of other people come to think of it, continue to bash away and totally feck it up for everyone else, including other guitarists.
Just occasionally I've heard two guitarists who compliment each other, but far more often you get that 'every harmonic at once' mishmash that makes yer ears tired after the first half dozen bars.
Don't get me wrong - I think accompanying the tunes is a far harder thing to do than just playing them, and I don't like the sound of the box on its own without some form of accompaniment.
And it's not just guitarists. I tried attending a session where everyone had their preferred seat and turned up early just to make sure they got it. There was a clique of four bodhrans between me and the session leader, one of whom could actually play the flamin' thing, and three of whom were seat warmers. I went along three times and then gave it up as a bad job.
I know heaps of "mainstream" tunes anyway and if I don't, I'll get out the sheetmusic ( snicker ) for the ones I don't know, (snort )and if that's too difficult, I'll try quietly to suss out the tune, or then back it as a last resort if no one else can. I've heard 2 guitars working at a session in a backing role but I've never been part of it . I think the players would have to do it very simply, which I wouldn't be prepared to do, so I guess its
concentrate on the melodies for me. Having said that if I go to a session and there are more than 2 I'll go and get the mando
anyway even if it is more difficult for me.
It sounded pretty dreadful this afternoon Eno I think I put a curse on myself with my pathetic last post. Speaking of pots, had any good stews over the open fire lately ?
Gandhi went to your session too? Nice guy, but he kept insisting that the sitar was actually an Irish instrument. Can't remember him playing guitar though.
Just to be clear hear, I’m not an anti guitarite. I’d rather play with one than without.
For me, this post was about fortifying my resolution to run this new session in a different way than many of the other sessions in the region are done. I’m going to feel bad the first time I let someone know that their contribution may not be welcome but I’ve got to remember that there is a session for everyone and they will find one. Coming into the summer here, there is a Monday session, and Wednesday session, a Thursday, two Friday, two Saturday and two Sunday sessions. Multiple guitarists, congas, jazz cellists, and music readers all have at least two or three others they can go to.
IMHO:
It seems to me that at an open session that works, you will eventually gather together a group of people who closely share the same values about music, style, camaraderie, and common courtesy. (This might apply to taking out your guitar when there are already a dozen playing. Personally, when I see a dozen fiddles ahead of me, I grab my mandolin or my whistles, or just play the pintglass.)
If you do not share all of the above values, there may likely be friction, especially with drop-ins who do not know the score. If you encourage the "irritants" who will not adapt to the majority rule by tolerance beyond the bounds of common sense, you have only yourselves to blame if it rankles.
My two cents, nothing more. Good luck.
'Also, most every modern (in the last 40 years), popular ITM band has/had a guitar player.' according to gw.
Jayz, if I had a stall selling tripe I'd make a mint from this comment.
Well, where do we start to refute this argument? I know, let's try The Chieftains as an hors d'oeuvre and then throw in De Dannan for the soup course (since very few of their tracks feature Alec on guitar). The menu's selection of main dishes would include Beginish, Cran, Bumblebees, Buttons and Bows, Craobh Rua, Damp in the Attic, Na Filí and Lá Lugh. The dessert trolley would feature The London Lasses, Moving Cloud,Beoga ... you've probably got the point by now, gw.
Hi Floss, I agree with you regarding your tripe comment, but must correct you regarding Craobh Rua and Beginish - both have had guitarists in their line-up at some point in time.
Perhaps I should have added "...or a bodhran." Yes, Flossy, I get your point, and I stand corrected. I'll admit I was more than a little miffed at Tooty Fruity's comment that "one" guitar was enough for him not to want to join in the session. That kind of attitude reminds me that there are scores of musicians who have had the passion for music drilled out of them by rigid academics or teachers who don't have the ability to nurture the passion. Hopefully, Tooty isn't a teacher.
I've been playing guitar for many years, but have only recently (over the past several years) developed an obsession for ITM. I'm learning and listening (mostly to groups with guitarists--probably where my comment came from) because I'm gathering ideas from accomplished backers on how to do it. I'm an ensemble player by nature so slogging out chords for myself to the detriment of the other players is something I would never do. I know how to blend... That said, I'm here to learn, not to be bashed because of my choice of instrument. I totally understand the "limiting the number..." thing, and that two guitarists (even good ones) making different chord choices behind a very clear single note melody can clash. But to me that is a musicianship problem, NOT an instrument problem. Singling out a particular instrument is, IMHO, barking up the wrong tree...
Beginish, Craobh Rua and La Lugh all had guitar players certainly on the occasions I saw them play live in Aberdeen. You need to amend your list, Floss.
In this music, melody players approach the music in a way that makes it possible to pile lots and lots of people on the melody without difficulties. Accompanists tend to have different styles and are used to improvising, so it can be tricky to add multiple strumming instruments. I play along with a bazouki player pretty frequently, but we work had to play in a complementary manner. As long as the accompanists are working together, the only other limiting factor is not overpowering the melody. After all, a session with too many of any one insturment can get out of balance, and the sound can suffer.
As with many of the arguments raised on the Mustard Board, there is no hard and fast answer--it is all about balance.
Hey Gary: Awwww, you're much too kind, and besides, like I said, I had a hidden agenda, which was to get Lisa's Dad to remember some of those old filthy WWII soldier tunes:
"Bridget O'Flynn, where have you been? I've waited a long time for you to drop in..."
Clayton - I really appreciate your sentiment:
"The thing is that there are a few people learning and progressing well on guitar that I wouldn’t mind if they played along because they do it softly and don’t get in the way..." - whether it's the guitar or the fiddle or the box or whatever, some of those folks, with a little encouragement and advice, blossom into first-rate players. I've seen it time and time again.
Good luck with this, anyway. I wish that I could come and sit in sometime... Peace,
Tom
gw
What I said is that I would not join in a session where there was also a guitarist playing unless I knew the players or I felt it was a big enough session to cope with having me play too
. Its a free country its not like I am giving you instructions. Its up to you what you do .
"we let them know nicely, that we'd like it if they just play the chords "straight I IV V VI " if you please"
This sounds horrendous. I was witness to a similar request, the players had the sheet music in front of them with defined chords written out....and they were the only chords please and thank you very much. Oh and the tunes - no one playing more than 8 notes per bar - well that's what was written down !
What nonsense.
You need the guitarist to add to the music not offer drivel.
What decent backer have you heard just throw out I IV V,
not Brady, not Doyle, not Carr - give it a bit of edge is what you should be asking from backers.
There is nothing worse (well there is worse, I just use the phrase for effective exaggeration) than the uselessness of the smiling three chorder. Dum de dum dum dum....and maybe a little de- dah at the end to tie the tweeness in a nice package.
I agree on the one guitarist though - only I'd go further - only one backer - one guitar and one zouk with clashing chords is just as bad as two guitarists with clashing chords.
So just one backer is preferable - unless there's a pair with the understanding of Lunny and Irvine.
However, life isn't as easy to organise than cyber life.....in reality, if you got a session with two backers you can't really tell one to f-off.....you just hope that it goes ok ....and if it gets out of hand you sort it out..the nice way first.
I thought everyone was supposed to be playing for fun at sessions, not blood, LOL. The sessions I go regularly usually have 3 or 4 guitarists and a bunch of melody players so it doesn't much matter. In any case, most guitarists I know can beat the sh!t out of 3 or 4 fiddlers at once so I'd watch out about threats and the like. All in good fun, nothing personal.
Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I’m wondering if anyone could share experiences on sessions that actively limit tune sets to one or two guitar players at a time? How is it approached at your session? Does it get contentious? Etc.
Thanks,
Clayton
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
It's a good idea.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Unfortunately this tends not to happen. I recall suggesting to another guitarist in a session that we play a few sets of tunes turn-about, as to my ear, together we were just making a racket and almost certainly ruining the session. The answer was a straight "NO!!!". So I went to the bar... I do sometimes on occassions, end up playing with other accompaniests, but it's something I prefer not to do.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
It's musical common sense to the extreme that multiple guitars playing different chords simultaneously sound bad. Anyone who takes part in it knows full well he's making the music less pleasant for everyone else, and it's not a matter of taste... it's one thing to personally not like a certain instrument or someone's playing style, but not liking the guitar equivalent of slamming half the keys on a piano with your forearm is universal.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
"How to Control What Happens at a Session", that perennial topic.
Credible threats of violence seem to be the most effective method
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Bren
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
i would have to say yes - guitars should be limited. and limited to one. For sessions without a piano, (and you wouldnt have more than one piano playing at a session would you?) a guitar, played well, ( I.E. simple chords and a good solid beat ) is a great help; especial for the less experienced players. Our session has suffered from people who play only guitar and play all kinds of goof ball. new age, fruity, neo-celtic, "riverdance" chords that just sound awful, or people who are more solo oriented in their playing and can't keep a beat with an ensemble. Now get two or more guitar players like that and it's murder!
Fortunately our session has come to a good solution, one of us will bring along a guitar and we take turns passing it around and playing it during the evening. 3 or 4 of us are decent enough players that we can hold our own beat-wise and it's really been working out well. No one gets lumbered with having to play guitar all night. and the session doesn't get lumbered with having to listen to a bad guitarist all night . and if someone shows who only plays guitar, we let them know nicely, that we'd like it if they just play the chords "straight I IV V VI " if you please.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by greybeardd
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
At the local session, there is usually only one guitarist. It is rare for there to be more than one guitarist at the local session. This is one of the reasons I was asked to bring my electronic keyboard to help "fill out" the sound and contribute to the general cacophony of the session.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
greybeardd - oooooh! can I come to your session? - that sounds right up my alley. I particularly liked "fruity". The hotshot guitarists around here all seem to need to play EVERY chord they know on EVERY tune, and like you said, get two or more of them...
If it's a newbie, you really don't want to discourage them from playing (IMHO), so I think that your approach is a good one.
Anymore, at my local sesh, I usually just leave the guitar in the car until I see who's there. Luckily for me, there are a bunch of regular punters who are my friends, so I always have a good time socializing anyway, and the tunes are always great.
There are only a few folks that I feel comfortable doing the multiple guitar thing with, and they're all better than I am, but we just naturally seem to watch and listen to each other. Usually I throttle back and just play drones or bass lines or percussive bits. It can be great fun and I always learn a ton.
...sorry, I'm rambling. It seems like it always comes back to that bugaboo "Session Etiquette", knowing the tunes, and listening. . .
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by tomw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
The reason I ask is that my trio has been hired to lead a session at a venue where people are used to a nearly anything goes approach. We’ve sometimes had two fiddlers and six or eight guitarists. I’m just trying to think this through so I’m prepared for what to say when they come in. The thing is that there are a few people learning and progressing well on guitar that I wouldn’t mind if they played along because they do it softly and don’t get in the way, there are others however who don’t quite get that…
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I think one guitarist per one hundred square miles is plenty.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Our regular session has one regular guitarist, who can also play the whistle and the bodrhan. My first ever instrument was the guitar, but I haven't taken one to an ITM session for years now, prefering the 'zouk. The guitarist and me tend to take turn and turn about - if he is playing rhythm I can play the tune, if I can't play the tune I can pick up the goatskin. If he is playing the tune I can also, or rhythm. There's never been anything wrong with too many people playing the tune. Two rhythm guitarists is like two bodrhans - it's over-egging the pudding. My SO also has a stratagem for when she doesn't know a tune - she can play jews' harp, spoons, bones, or the goat.
How you get these points over to other guitarists is a moot point.
PS What's the difference between a drummer and a drum machine ?
On a drum machine you only have to punch the instructions in once......
Doesn't always work with guitarists.....
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Not only does a bunch of guitars sound terrible, it looks ridiculous.
The key is that you have been thrust into the leadership position. You have a greater responsibility to the venue. You have the right to tell folks how it is going to be. Be strong!
6-8 guitars to2 fiddles. Don't these guitar players see/hear something is wrong there?
I better stop.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
iampeterfonda:
If you are playing for hire and want a certain compliment of musicians, that's different and you get to select. If you are hired to lead a session, you can determine what type of session it is. Is it open or closed? What does the employer want - open or closed?
If it's open, then anything goes. If you are closing it, then just do it tactfully. Or, set up a schedule. If it's a weekly session, 3 out of 4 weeks are a select group and the 4th week is open. Just think of the best way to communicate this. Or not.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I don't think Open Session Neccessarily means Anything Goes, GrumblingYoungster. There can still be standards and the person asked by the venue to do the job can set and enforce those standards s/he determines to be right for the venue.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Hey Clayton-I'm sorry, I didn't really address your original question, and I'm afraid that I don't know what to tell you, except that if you need to have some kind of rules ("No guitarists need apply" (grin...)), make sure that the bar owner (I assume that the venue is a bar) and the staff know about and agree with them, so that you're not stuck alone being the, um, enforcer. I'm sure that there are some experienced session organizers lurking around here (Gary, whither art thou?) that can give you some good advice. Have fun, anyway.
Bob - given the density of sessions around here, your estimate is about right. . .
Pete - "How you get these points over to other guitarists is a moot point." Please explain sometime.
Cheers, all!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by tomw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Open but not anything goes is what we are aiming for. We've been spreading the word that this is going to be a much more traditional session then others have been at this venue. And it's working with the more perceptive (so you mean I can't bring my 5 string banjo?) but it's not the perceptive that I'm worried about...
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Oops, Gary, cross post! I'll see ya Tuesday.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by tomw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
The key to limiting the number of guitarists is to attack the source, which would be the rampant over-breeding of guitarists. Strays are a huge problem, mainly because people don't take the time to spay or neuter their guitarists. This leads to a growing wild population that exponentially reproduces itself year after year. Thankfully, some do change into other types of musicians after some significant exposure to the music.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I do not allow more than nine, otherwise everyone wants to sing "Ten Guitars".
It doesn't really matter how many, depends on the session. Seven guitars and one fiddle isn't much use, but a big session with loads of melody players, it doesn't matter if there are four guitarists. As long as they can more or less play.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Hmmm, too many guitarists you say? Rubbish, there can never be too many guitarists. See here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n10E3XwV5kA&feature=related
Now, THAT look ridiculous!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by grego
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Tomw is the kind of guitarist one would hope for. He is very sensitive to what is going on. He doesn't feel like he must play and sits out if there is an over abundance of guitars enen tho he is the best git-box player who comes. Bless him, the other night he spent most of the time talking with a gentleman suffering with alzhiemers brought by his daughter, a wonderful concertina player.
To tell you the truth, I don't like more that one whistle player playing at the same time. I love my whislte, but I would rather pick up my Low-d or mandolin rather than help create the "aviary effect".
I walked into an "anything goes" situation, but have been able to turn it around a bit and the tunes have gotten better. this is what we did
1) post my Etiquette "opinions" on our site as friendly as could be.
worked pretty good, but not completely
2) in sending out emails announcing a session, I refered folks to the Etiquette opinion on the website.
Progress. But by that time, I figured the violators were either too dense or in open rebellion that a dirrect approach was appropriate.
3) Open individual communication.
That worked. More fine musicians are coming because some others decided not to come anymore.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Hey Bliss: Yup, you're right, it depends upon the number of melody players. As long as they can more or less play, like you said, and that's the rub.
Fiddler - now, cut that out! Perhaps we should start a foundation (with you and I as the highly compensated Executive Director and Staff Scientist, respectively) dedicated to the maintenance but eventual humane eradication of feral guitarist colonies.
I can just tell that it's Friday. I'm off to go dancin'.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by tomw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I think it's a non starter. It's incredibly boring for any musician to have to sit out of a lot of sets, just because one or two other players of his/her instrument showed up. And as soon as you start deciding who can show up to play and who can't, it's a gig and not a session. You have to learn to go with the flow in sessions, and find a way to make the best music possible and enjoy yourself with what you have and whoever is there. I have the greatest respect for some of the really good musicians I've known who would sit down any play with just about anyone under the right circumstances... no condescention. That's what you need. Don't try to recreate the conditions of a recording studio, just go down the pub and have some fun with your mates. If you can't stand it because more than one of them plays guitar, give up the sessions and form a band.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
G.O.W.:
>If it's open, then anything goes.
Anything goes?
Well, here's what members of this site thought recently about sessions which boast that Anything Goes:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16036/comments
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
"I think it's a non starter. It's incredibly boring for any musician to have to sit out of a lot of sets, just because one or two other players of his/her instrument showed up."
Well, we're talking about too much accompaniment here - and to put it bluntly, why should anyone think they've got the right to feck up the music for everyone else. That to me, is simply selfish.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
de Selby, and others, why should you have to go with the flow? Some sessions - sessions, not gigs - are selective: exclusive not inclusive. Whether you agree or disagree with that is irrelevant, the fact is they are exclusive. Certainly in this town, that can be the case. We have been a guitar free zone for the most part for about 3 or 4 years. Mediocre guitarists (of which sadly many abound) are not made particularly welcome whereas even mediocre tunesmiths are. I don't know if that is an actual reason for their paucity, that they know better than to darken the door of the BHT (unlikely since they are not noted for their numbers having an inordinately representation of membership of MENSA), but it suits us.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
de Selby doesn't have anything in his/her profile, so I will assume this person is new to sessions.
The point is, there is some work that goes into arranging and promoting sessions. I know I will protect the work that I did. You just can't put up with folks who would act like aliens in the 'war of the worlds'. That is, they show up, suck the planet dry and wreck it, than move on. Sure, one can move on and start another session. That will go good until the aliens realize that all the good musicians are now gone out of the one they wrecked and then goes off to seek them out.
Better to preserve what you started.
No one says who can come and who can't, but the responsible person can guide what is expected if one decides they will attend.
de selby seems to know how boring it is to sit out. Guitar player?
Those great players sit with anyone under the right conditions. Right conditions is the key.
One needs to look out for everybody. Some make great sacrifices to attend. Others find sessions to be critical to their mental and emotional health. Sessions provide social interaction that some people actually need. It is not just about tunes.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
"de Selby doesn't have anything in his/her profile, so I will assume this person is new to sessions."
Well, I don't think Sherlock Holmes would be too impressed with your powers of deductive reasoning.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
By the way KLM, I know what you mean about exclusive sessions. I can smell them. I've sensed that exclusive attitude on the part of musicians that weren't even that good, while others, giants by comparisons, would just sit down and play the music. Bollcks to exclusive sessions.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I play in a very famous session pub and it's very important that it's an open session. However, it's not an understatement to that not everyone is welcome.
Pragmatism rules
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Actually, I could use one or two more guitar players or other compers down here in South Florida!
I'll play fiddle or guitar, but if I'm the only comper, I'll comp all night. If there's another guitar player who shows up once in a while I can mix it up.
I'll also know I won't be the only guy to show up to the session, which has happened a few times.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
If there is one guitarist my machine stays in its box unless its a huge session or I know the musicians well
. Am I the only one to notice that 'zouk players are more likely to take turns and generally get on than guitarists ?
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Unfortunately, I play guitar. I know my instrument isn't good enough for your folk nazi clique--I mean pure drop ITM session. Your interpretation of the music is so righteous, and that you have mastered the nuances of other peoples playing from bygone days is reason enough not to violate your sacred aural space. I mean how could I expect to be accepted in your perfect musical Xanadu?
Ooga ga chukka ooga chukka... tooty flutey scoot my booty across the floor like a beagle that needs to be de-wormed...
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Is it difficult to play the guitar with such a chip on your shoulder ?
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
No, it's difficult to be a guitarist around musicians who don't appreciate the instrument! "F youse all!"--to quote Mr Shane MacGowan.
I like whistles and pipes and boxes and fiddles and flutes and even bones and bodhrans. I'd never post "freakin' fiddlers are ALWAYS out of tune.! The annoying bastards. And there's too many of them in sessions and they're too loud! They're just feckin' with my strumming..."
Also, most every modern (in the last 40 years), popular ITM band has/had a guitar player. "Aye, but they only had one!" Well, they only had one piper too--if that many!
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Why is it that people on this site love taking offence at the slightest thing - usually by completely misconstruing what the previous poster wrote?
The problem with too many guitarists at a session is that only the good ones, who have learned the tunes they are backing and actually listen to what the other players are doing, will sit out if the sound is getting muddy. The crap ones, who don't apparently have any sense of harmony or of other people come to think of it, continue to bash away and totally feck it up for everyone else, including other guitarists.
Just occasionally I've heard two guitarists who compliment each other, but far more often you get that 'every harmonic at once' mishmash that makes yer ears tired after the first half dozen bars.
Don't get me wrong - I think accompanying the tunes is a far harder thing to do than just playing them, and I don't like the sound of the box on its own without some form of accompaniment.
And it's not just guitarists. I tried attending a session where everyone had their preferred seat and turned up early just to make sure they got it. There was a clique of four bodhrans between me and the session leader, one of whom could actually play the flamin' thing, and three of whom were seat warmers. I went along three times and then gave it up as a bad job.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
...and another thing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRWhsGwCO5g
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
LOL!
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
"Why is it that people on this site love taking offense at the slightest thing..."
Because we're just yammering at each other, not actually playing music together.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
"Why is it that people on this site love taking offence at the slightest thing - usually by completely misconstruing what the previous poster wrote?"
The previous poster (to my post) wrote:
"If there is one guitarist my machine stays in its box unless its a huge session..."
That's if there is ONE guitarist!
tooty flutey obviously needs to get laid
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I know heaps of "mainstream" tunes anyway and if I don't, I'll get out the sheetmusic ( snicker ) for the ones I don't know, (snort )and if that's too difficult, I'll try quietly to suss out the tune, or then back it as a last resort if no one else can. I've heard 2 guitars working at a session in a backing role but I've never been part of it . I think the players would have to do it very simply, which I wouldn't be prepared to do, so I guess its
concentrate on the melodies for me. Having said that if I go to a session and there are more than 2 I'll go and get the mando
anyway even if it is more difficult for me.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
chuneboi,
How come your guitar still sounds so good when you keep using it to stir the pot?
Eno
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
It sounded pretty dreadful this afternoon Eno I think I put a curse on myself with my pathetic last post. Speaking of pots, had any good stews over the open fire lately ?
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
...you mean potjiekos?
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by domnull
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I feel about limiting the number of guitarists the way Gandhi felt about Western civilisation.......
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Gandhi went to your session too? Nice guy, but he kept insisting that the sitar was actually an Irish instrument. Can't remember him playing guitar though.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by leoj
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
They had a spicy little wilderbeast number by all accounts.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Just to be clear hear, I’m not an anti guitarite. I’d rather play with one than without.
For me, this post was about fortifying my resolution to run this new session in a different way than many of the other sessions in the region are done. I’m going to feel bad the first time I let someone know that their contribution may not be welcome but I’ve got to remember that there is a session for everyone and they will find one. Coming into the summer here, there is a Monday session, and Wednesday session, a Thursday, two Friday, two Saturday and two Sunday sessions. Multiple guitarists, congas, jazz cellists, and music readers all have at least two or three others they can go to.
p.s., that Swananoa clip was really funny
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Hi iampeterfonda - I don't think anyone thought you were anti guitar at all from what you've posted - just very sensible!
Best of luck with your pest control project
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
IMHO:
It seems to me that at an open session that works, you will eventually gather together a group of people who closely share the same values about music, style, camaraderie, and common courtesy. (This might apply to taking out your guitar when there are already a dozen playing. Personally, when I see a dozen fiddles ahead of me, I grab my mandolin or my whistles, or just play the pintglass.)
If you do not share all of the above values, there may likely be friction, especially with drop-ins who do not know the score. If you encourage the "irritants" who will not adapt to the majority rule by tolerance beyond the bounds of common sense, you have only yourselves to blame if it rankles.
My two cents, nothing more. Good luck.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Rook
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
'Also, most every modern (in the last 40 years), popular ITM band has/had a guitar player.' according to gw.
Jayz, if I had a stall selling tripe I'd make a mint from this comment.
Well, where do we start to refute this argument? I know, let's try The Chieftains as an hors d'oeuvre and then throw in De Dannan for the soup course (since very few of their tracks feature Alec on guitar). The menu's selection of main dishes would include Beginish, Cran, Bumblebees, Buttons and Bows, Craobh Rua, Damp in the Attic, Na Filí and Lá Lugh. The dessert trolley would feature The London Lasses, Moving Cloud,Beoga ... you've probably got the point by now, gw.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Hi Floss, I agree with you regarding your tripe comment, but must correct you regarding Craobh Rua and Beginish - both have had guitarists in their line-up at some point in time.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Perhaps I should have added "...or a bodhran." Yes, Flossy, I get your point, and I stand corrected. I'll admit I was more than a little miffed at Tooty Fruity's comment that "one" guitar was enough for him not to want to join in the session. That kind of attitude reminds me that there are scores of musicians who have had the passion for music drilled out of them by rigid academics or teachers who don't have the ability to nurture the passion. Hopefully, Tooty isn't a teacher.
I've been playing guitar for many years, but have only recently (over the past several years) developed an obsession for ITM. I'm learning and listening (mostly to groups with guitarists--probably where my comment came from) because I'm gathering ideas from accomplished backers on how to do it. I'm an ensemble player by nature so slogging out chords for myself to the detriment of the other players is something I would never do. I know how to blend... That said, I'm here to learn, not to be bashed because of my choice of instrument. I totally understand the "limiting the number..." thing, and that two guitarists (even good ones) making different chord choices behind a very clear single note melody can clash. But to me that is a musicianship problem, NOT an instrument problem. Singling out a particular instrument is, IMHO, barking up the wrong tree...
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Beginish, Craobh Rua and La Lugh all had guitar players certainly on the occasions I saw them play live in Aberdeen. You need to amend your list, Floss.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
In this music, melody players approach the music in a way that makes it possible to pile lots and lots of people on the melody without difficulties. Accompanists tend to have different styles and are used to improvising, so it can be tricky to add multiple strumming instruments. I play along with a bazouki player pretty frequently, but we work had to play in a complementary manner. As long as the accompanists are working together, the only other limiting factor is not overpowering the melody. After all, a session with too many of any one insturment can get out of balance, and the sound can suffer.
As with many of the arguments raised on the Mustard Board, there is no hard and fast answer--it is all about balance.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
Hey Gary: Awwww, you're much too kind, and besides, like I said, I had a hidden agenda, which was to get Lisa's Dad to remember some of those old filthy WWII soldier tunes:
"Bridget O'Flynn, where have you been? I've waited a long time for you to drop in..."
Clayton - I really appreciate your sentiment:
"The thing is that there are a few people learning and progressing well on guitar that I wouldn’t mind if they played along because they do it softly and don’t get in the way..." - whether it's the guitar or the fiddle or the box or whatever, some of those folks, with a little encouragement and advice, blossom into first-rate players. I've seen it time and time again.
Good luck with this, anyway. I wish that I could come and sit in sometime... Peace,
Tom
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by tomw
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
feardearg,
When I said "anything goes" that doesn't mean that it's a free for all. You still "follow the leaders" and apply some etiquette.
Thanks for calling me "young" - maybe grumblingmiddleagedwoman, would be a better name.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
gw
What I said is that I would not join in a session where there was also a guitarist playing unless I knew the players or I felt it was a big enough session to cope with having me play too
. Its a free country its not like I am giving you instructions. Its up to you what you do .
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
"we let them know nicely, that we'd like it if they just play the chords "straight I IV V VI " if you please"
This sounds horrendous. I was witness to a similar request, the players had the sheet music in front of them with defined chords written out....and they were the only chords please and thank you very much. Oh and the tunes - no one playing more than 8 notes per bar - well that's what was written down !
What nonsense.
You need the guitarist to add to the music not offer drivel.
What decent backer have you heard just throw out I IV V,
not Brady, not Doyle, not Carr - give it a bit of edge is what you should be asking from backers.
There is nothing worse (well there is worse, I just use the phrase for effective exaggeration) than the uselessness of the smiling three chorder. Dum de dum dum dum....and maybe a little de- dah at the end to tie the tweeness in a nice package.
I agree on the one guitarist though - only I'd go further - only one backer - one guitar and one zouk with clashing chords is just as bad as two guitarists with clashing chords.
So just one backer is preferable - unless there's a pair with the understanding of Lunny and Irvine.
However, life isn't as easy to organise than cyber life.....in reality, if you got a session with two backers you can't really tell one to f-off.....you just hope that it goes ok ....and if it gets out of hand you sort it out..the nice way first.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by BegF
Re: Limiting the Number of Guitarists
I thought everyone was supposed to be playing for fun at sessions, not blood, LOL. The sessions I go regularly usually have 3 or 4 guitarists and a bunch of melody players so it doesn't much matter. In any case, most guitarists I know can beat the sh!t out of 3 or 4 fiddlers at once so I'd watch out about threats and the like. All in good fun, nothing personal.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Raymond G