Rolls: up, or down after a very short up bow, where I lift the bow a tiny little bit (without actually coming off the string). Both give you the opportunity to dig into the string.
If anyone thinks they are having problems doing your trebles in both directions, try taking a hornpipe you know well and play it nice and steady. The chances are that you will already be doing the skipperty bits in hornpipes in both directions. Especially if you have bunches of triplets, like most hornpipes do. Just extrapolate this to reels and jigs.
A lot of reels and jigs can have two fast rolls back to back. You can/should be doing these either broken up into separate bows, starting up or down, or joined in the same direction, either up or down. However, if you substitute two bowed trebles back to back, the bowing has to be dud upu, or upu dud. Here is where you will already be doing this in a hornpipe, you just need to get that wrist action going a bit.
Some very good players only start trebles downbow. However, that approach requires far too much planning for my fiddle playing, so I learned how to do it both ways. I'm glad I did. Rolls are a left hand thing, and it doesn't matter what your bow is doing as long as you don't change direction in the middle of it.
llig ,
I know that,and I can do them[rolls and trebles both ways],
my question was whether people had a preference.and why?
I prefer to start the treble on an up bow,with the preceding note a down,but I can do them both ways.[if i was ornamenting a dotted crotchet in jig time,I would prefer to play the first quaver down then two semiquavers, up, down, then the last quaver up.,that is what I find natural,but I have spent time reversing the bowing.[so that Ican do them bothways]in case My bow should be the wrong way
I just got the impression,that trebles starting on the up bow were not so popular,that was why I asked the question.
A caveat, to begin: playing a fiddle tune from written music is an act of translation, even without any ornamentation involved. Though all of the eighth notes look the same on the page, a traditional player will add some swing to bring the tune to life—a little lengthening and emphasis here, shorter there. That swing is what will distinguish a fiddle tune from a classical rendition of the piece, and the amount, placement, and uniformity of the swing is what distinguishes one fiddler from another. Hardly controversial ground, but it’s a good place to begin talking about ornamentation in Irish music, because lifting that from the page is an even bigger piece of translation, and the execution of ornaments varies greatly from player to player.
We’ll start with trebles and cuts, working with the traditional reel Within a Mile of Dublin. In m. 2 and 3 I’ve put a treble, or triplet, to replace the opening figure in m.1. In my usual playing of the tune, I would have a treble in the opening measure of the tune as well, but I want to make the point early that ornaments are not essential, even though they do dress the tune up pretty. You hear the terms treble and triplet used interchangeably, but I’m calling it a treble here because it doesn’t consist of three notes of equal length. It’s more a question of tension and release. When I first teach a treble, I have my students slur the preceding two eighth notes and then bring the bow to a tense and gritty stop on the first note of the ornament, bearing down into the string. That’s the tension: the rest of it is allowing your wrist to relax and shake through the next two notes. The first note is short, the third one longer: so much so that you’ll sometimes see the ornament written as two sixteenths followed by an eighth.
Some people are down-bow treblers, others up, a select few go both ways with alacrity. I start mine on a down-bow and am working on improving the up-bow trebles. I find the down-bow to be a bit grittier, while an up-bow treble expresses the notes more cleanly. In either case, I find I have more success in the upper third of the bow—not coincidentally where most Irish fiddling takes place. By all means, though, you should practice your trebles in every part of the bow to gain control. After bedeviling yourself trying to pull them off at the frog, being at the tip will seem like a reward. I do think there’s something to be said for focusing your energy on one direction first until you’ve gained a reasonable amount of confidence with the ornament, and then to challenge yourself to be able to go both ways
I'm not familiar with Brendan Taafe, but what he says seems reasonable. I don't agree with all of it, but that's fine. Embrace the contradictions and all that. I liked his phrase, "a select few go both ways with alacrity". I had to look up alacrity, but was pleasantly surprised to read the very first definition as "cheerful readiness".
I think there are two things at issue here. One is that a lot of really good players bow this kind of thing just one way. The other is that, is it beneficial to advise newcomers to learn both ways of doing it from the outset?
From my own experience, I learned one way. I learned a lot of my bowing one way. I had the idea that the classic back beat in reels, for example, should go one way. I was a kid and I learned off records and I learned the classic back beat as an up bow. It was only later when I met real people I found that most of them did it with a down bow. It sounds the same.
So I went through this period of trying to accent the other way, 'cause I saw other people doing it like that.
But then I got to see/hear really really good players who understand that the tunes don't have regular accents. The tunes duck and dive, they go backwards and forwards, they tie themselves in the most beautiful of knots and unravel themselves and really are the most unpredictable of lovely things. So I try to drop the predictable back beat and embrace fluidity.
So
Do you want to be a really good player and play with that lovely swing and danceable bounce and get people's feet tapping? Or do you want to be a really really good player and really get inside the tunes?
... but nobody has suggested splitting some trebles into two bows, another possibility, yes/no? Possible bowing combinations for trebles and rolls are mind boggling, hey?
If you listen to James Kelly and Tommy Peoples - they do
ornaments that have no names - half rolls and trebles with
cuts going across them and all kinds of funny business
Taking one of Michael's earlier points, it's also possible that some back to back trebles fall out fine played either dud dud or udu udu. They don't absolutely *have* to be dud udu or udu dud
I think you should be able to do the lot. I do the lot except in one case - if I *really* want to dig into the start of a treble I'll start it - usually, at any rate - on a down bow.
But if you do two trebbles back to back as dud dud or udu udu, how are you gonna attack the second one? The only way would be to take the bow off the strings or at least ease off for a tad. I'm not so sure that's desirable, or even possible, at speed anyhow. It's not like you are picking them with a pick.
Not what I meant - I usually come out of a treble like so dud d, or udu u, slurring onto the next note. Where they are back to back, sometimes - not often mind you - it's nice to slur onto the second of them as well as coming out of the second one with another slur. I suppose it's a different sort of ornament, really.
I'm thinking of something else - ignore me. I'm thinking of bowed triplets, ie on separate notes. I agree - can't be done with what is here called 'trebles', which is on the same note.
Slur and cut is good for triplets. And, in fact, you can do that in even for a treble. (D'ya know, I hate that term. I never came across it until I came on this site, and it just doesn't mean anything to me.)
BT: Your triplets are very distinctive. How did you develop them?
TP: I probably consciously worked on them in the sense that they never seemed to work properly. So they developed from trying to bow them properly but not succeeding. There’s a slight difference from what might be known as a Sligo style of playing in that it’s a different bow direction. The actual triplet itself is started on a down bow; if you do it on an up-bow it gives a lighter feeling. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on form.
I don't have the hard quote handy, but I'm fairly certain I've read or heard similar statements by Kevin Burke and Andy McGann.
Still, in my travels and meetings, I feel like more people strongly favor the down-bow for trebles, and have figured out how to comfortably do a downbow treble after a downbowed note (eliminating the need to learn the up-bow treble).
I learned to do mine downbow, then switched over to up-bow after talking to Tommy Peoples about them. Now I've developed a fairly strong preference for the up-bow version, though I still hit them on a downbow occasionally...
bow direction for trebles and rolls
bow direction for trebles and rolls
what is the preference here amongst fiddlers,
do you prefer to start trebles on an up bow or down bow,and the same as regards rolls.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
both.
it's quite important
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
Trebles: down
Rolls: up, or down after a very short up bow, where I lift the bow a tiny little bit (without actually coming off the string). Both give you the opportunity to dig into the string.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
If anyone thinks they are having problems doing your trebles in both directions, try taking a hornpipe you know well and play it nice and steady. The chances are that you will already be doing the skipperty bits in hornpipes in both directions. Especially if you have bunches of triplets, like most hornpipes do. Just extrapolate this to reels and jigs.
A lot of reels and jigs can have two fast rolls back to back. You can/should be doing these either broken up into separate bows, starting up or down, or joined in the same direction, either up or down. However, if you substitute two bowed trebles back to back, the bowing has to be dud upu, or upu dud. Here is where you will already be doing this in a hornpipe, you just need to get that wrist action going a bit.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
Some very good players only start trebles downbow. However, that approach requires far too much planning for my fiddle playing, so I learned how to do it both ways. I'm glad I did. Rolls are a left hand thing, and it doesn't matter what your bow is doing as long as you don't change direction in the middle of it.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by reenactor
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
llig ,
I know that,and I can do them[rolls and trebles both ways],
my question was whether people had a preference.and why?
I prefer to start the treble on an up bow,with the preceding note a down,but I can do them both ways.[if i was ornamenting a dotted crotchet in jig time,I would prefer to play the first quaver down then two semiquavers, up, down, then the last quaver up.,that is what I find natural,but I have spent time reversing the bowing.[so that Ican do them bothways]in case My bow should be the wrong way
I just got the impression,that trebles starting on the up bow were not so popular,that was why I asked the question.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
can there be a reason for a preference other than you can't do it the other way?
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
wont they sound slightly different ?
generally speaking ,it is easier to put more emphasis on a down bow,and perhaps a bit more downward pressure.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
from Brendan Taafe
A caveat, to begin: playing a fiddle tune from written music is an act of translation, even without any ornamentation involved. Though all of the eighth notes look the same on the page, a traditional player will add some swing to bring the tune to life—a little lengthening and emphasis here, shorter there. That swing is what will distinguish a fiddle tune from a classical rendition of the piece, and the amount, placement, and uniformity of the swing is what distinguishes one fiddler from another. Hardly controversial ground, but it’s a good place to begin talking about ornamentation in Irish music, because lifting that from the page is an even bigger piece of translation, and the execution of ornaments varies greatly from player to player.
We’ll start with trebles and cuts, working with the traditional reel Within a Mile of Dublin. In m. 2 and 3 I’ve put a treble, or triplet, to replace the opening figure in m.1. In my usual playing of the tune, I would have a treble in the opening measure of the tune as well, but I want to make the point early that ornaments are not essential, even though they do dress the tune up pretty. You hear the terms treble and triplet used interchangeably, but I’m calling it a treble here because it doesn’t consist of three notes of equal length. It’s more a question of tension and release. When I first teach a treble, I have my students slur the preceding two eighth notes and then bring the bow to a tense and gritty stop on the first note of the ornament, bearing down into the string. That’s the tension: the rest of it is allowing your wrist to relax and shake through the next two notes. The first note is short, the third one longer: so much so that you’ll sometimes see the ornament written as two sixteenths followed by an eighth.
Some people are down-bow treblers, others up, a select few go both ways with alacrity. I start mine on a down-bow and am working on improving the up-bow trebles. I find the down-bow to be a bit grittier, while an up-bow treble expresses the notes more cleanly. In either case, I find I have more success in the upper third of the bow—not coincidentally where most Irish fiddling takes place. By all means, though, you should practice your trebles in every part of the bow to gain control. After bedeviling yourself trying to pull them off at the frog, being at the tip will seem like a reward. I do think there’s something to be said for focusing your energy on one direction first until you’ve gained a reasonable amount of confidence with the ornament, and then to challenge yourself to be able to go both ways
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
I'm not familiar with Brendan Taafe, but what he says seems reasonable. I don't agree with all of it, but that's fine. Embrace the contradictions and all that. I liked his phrase, "a select few go both ways with alacrity". I had to look up alacrity, but was pleasantly surprised to read the very first definition as "cheerful readiness".
I think there are two things at issue here. One is that a lot of really good players bow this kind of thing just one way. The other is that, is it beneficial to advise newcomers to learn both ways of doing it from the outset?
From my own experience, I learned one way. I learned a lot of my bowing one way. I had the idea that the classic back beat in reels, for example, should go one way. I was a kid and I learned off records and I learned the classic back beat as an up bow. It was only later when I met real people I found that most of them did it with a down bow. It sounds the same.
So I went through this period of trying to accent the other way, 'cause I saw other people doing it like that.
But then I got to see/hear really really good players who understand that the tunes don't have regular accents. The tunes duck and dive, they go backwards and forwards, they tie themselves in the most beautiful of knots and unravel themselves and really are the most unpredictable of lovely things. So I try to drop the predictable back beat and embrace fluidity.
So
Do you want to be a really good player and play with that lovely swing and danceable bounce and get people's feet tapping? Or do you want to be a really really good player and really get inside the tunes?
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
It would please me no end were I able to accomplish the former on a consistent basis. I'll get inside the tune after I'm first able to get around it.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by leoj
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
... but nobody has suggested splitting some trebles into two bows, another possibility, yes/no? Possible bowing combinations for trebles and rolls are mind boggling, hey?
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
If you listen to James Kelly and Tommy Peoples - they do
ornaments that have no names - half rolls and trebles with
cuts going across them and all kinds of funny business
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by Hup
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
yep. but don't let that encourage you to make up your own.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
Taking one of Michael's earlier points, it's also possible that some back to back trebles fall out fine played either dud dud or udu udu. They don't absolutely *have* to be dud udu or udu dud
I think you should be able to do the lot. I do the lot except in one case - if I *really* want to dig into the start of a treble I'll start it - usually, at any rate - on a down bow.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
But if you do two trebbles back to back as dud dud or udu udu, how are you gonna attack the second one? The only way would be to take the bow off the strings or at least ease off for a tad. I'm not so sure that's desirable, or even possible, at speed anyhow. It's not like you are picking them with a pick.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
Not what I meant - I usually come out of a treble like so dud d, or udu u, slurring onto the next note. Where they are back to back, sometimes - not often mind you - it's nice to slur onto the second of them as well as coming out of the second one with another slur. I suppose it's a different sort of ornament, really.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
... or just slur between the two, and come out with a separate bow.
... or into another treble ... or whatever ...
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
I'm thinking of something else - ignore me. I'm thinking of bowed triplets, ie on separate notes. I agree - can't be done with what is here called 'trebles', which is on the same note.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
... or slur and cut it, hey? (but what would I know)
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
Thanks for the warning Llig - I pay attention to all your advice
(with my windup detector set to "stun")
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Hup
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
Slur and cut is good for triplets. And, in fact, you can do that in even for a treble. (D'ya know, I hate that term. I never came across it until I came on this site, and it just doesn't mean anything to me.)
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
I'm fairly certain that Andy McGann (RIP), Tommy Peoples, and Kevin Burke do(did) trebles pretty much exclusively starting with an up-bow.
From Brendan's interview of Tommy Peoples: http://brendantaaffe.com/tommy_peoples.html
BT: Your triplets are very distinctive. How did you develop them?
TP: I probably consciously worked on them in the sense that they never seemed to work properly. So they developed from trying to bow them properly but not succeeding. There’s a slight difference from what might be known as a Sligo style of playing in that it’s a different bow direction. The actual triplet itself is started on a down bow; if you do it on an up-bow it gives a lighter feeling. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on form.
I don't have the hard quote handy, but I'm fairly certain I've read or heard similar statements by Kevin Burke and Andy McGann.
Still, in my travels and meetings, I feel like more people strongly favor the down-bow for trebles, and have figured out how to comfortably do a downbow treble after a downbowed note (eliminating the need to learn the up-bow treble).
I learned to do mine downbow, then switched over to up-bow after talking to Tommy Peoples about them. Now I've developed a fairly strong preference for the up-bow version, though I still hit them on a downbow occasionally...
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Georgi
Re: bow direction for trebles and rolls
A basic jig rhythm, dud udu dud udu etc, wil develop both directions admirably.
# Posted on June 10th 2008 by Ionannas