ive seen this tecnique being used by people on the bouzouki and guitar, is it just a matter of building up speed,and would you use a metronome while practising it.? i suppose its just a [dudududu] speeded up really fast in time with a tune, i wouldnt like to use it all the time though just now and again.
Unless you can do it exceptionally quietly, I agree with the lad above.
It's both unsubtle and unmusical.
I call it "stirring the pudding ". I've known a proponent of it break up a really good session.
I disapprove of "machine-gun" style strumming also--even though I don't play guitar. I did see Solas when they came here and performed. I was impressed by the speed of John Doyle's guitar playing even though I didn't like it.
Our guitarist is a machine-gunner. All that means is that half of the time he generally plays too fast and loud and the other half his arm gets tired so he slows way down. Any advice?
The answer is to think all rhythms in half time. This is true for backers and melody players.
Instead of counting a jig (for instance) as a frenetic flailing furious fast * 123223323423123223323423… feel the pulse (at the same tempo) as 1 (breathe!) 3 (breathe!), 1 (breathe!) 3 (breathe!) It will keep you in better overall time and also keeps the acceleration down. It works for reel and everything else as well.
You can judge what measure length is going on in players head’s when they do the foot stomping stuff. Most bash away with a fast “four to the floor”.
Also try playing an arpeggio (that word doesn’t mean “harp-like” for nothing!) on the first beat of the bar, remember the melody will fill in the rhythm. This is particularly useful for slip jigs. No need to thrash away like Johnny Ramone or the guitar holder in Napalm Death.
BUT! As someone said here just the other day “Shave and a haircut Two bits” à la Bo Diddley is fab for reels! It “reely” is! But like all backing techniques: don’t over do it!
"Something that should be done ONLY if requested by the melody players - personally, it does my head and ears in!"
Ron - I'm not a great fan of 'heavy' strumming myself, but I'd hate to go to a session where people tell each other how to play. Ideally, the musicians should be able to complement each other just by listening to one another. That doesn't always happen, of course, but no amount of prior discussion can make it happen.
BTW, Jerry Mac is a highly accomplished and sensitive backer on guitar and bouzouki, and was asking *how* to do it, not *when* or *whether*.
Look: strum only with melody players good enough to interestingly ornament said strumming or it's a waste of your time. John Doyle knows this and chooses well.
Sure granama - I understand what you mean. I wasn't meaning to criticize anyone at all. Jerry Mac does indeed say that he would just use it now and again - which to me says that he is probably a very sensitive musician. I was was only expressing my own personal viewpoint about this - really, that the backer (and I am one myself), should be sensitive to what the other musicians are comfortable with. That could mean anything from tickling the strings, to machine-gun stuff - the latter of which I myself try to avoid.
Re the how to question - just work away at it and build up the right hand technique. I wouldn't bother with a metronome.
Many of the better strummers will hit every eighth note with their strumming. Two of the more famous players that I have seen doing this up close and personal are John Doyle and Dennis Cahill. Of course, this constant pulse is very, very light, with accents thrown in on top of the pulse.
The 'machine gun' effect comes when someone tries to do the same thing, but without the finesse--a steady stream of undifferentiated heavy strums.
My former guitar teacher (Matt Heaton from the Boston area) helped me in this direction, and did suggest using a metronome to practice slowly increasing the speed when I was first trying to achieve this sound. He showed me how to strum more with the forearm and less with the wrist, and again, the stress was on a light touch.
I ain't there yet, may never be, but a good teacher can sure move you in the right direction.
Al - Wow! Matt was your teacher! He's an absolute master at this sort of stuff. I went to one of his workshops a couple of years ago, and learned a ton. About the first half of the lesson was just about strumming. He and his band are back this year at a local "Celtic" festival (there's also a bluegrass band, albeit a good one, and some contra-dance types, so it's not really that Celtic), but unfortunately it appears that there aren't going to be any workshops or I'd definitely show up.
From John Doyle's DVD: The pick that he uses is what he calls a "Sixty Millimeter USA Nylon", which I believe is a Dunlop .60. Oddly enough, my current pick of choice.
..In answer to your previous question, [quote] "is it just a matter of building up speed,and would you use a metronome while practising it.?" -- IMHO -- a partial, but solid -- YES!
Try using a metronome, and see what happens!
I worked up a reel, flatpicking on guitar, from 80 beats/min. on Friday to 110 BPM on Monday, ie., 10 BPM / day, with an hour per day of practice.
You'll have to use the previously discussed, "start at comfortable tempo and build up bit by bit" - method. Each tempo therefore becomes "automatic," ie., firmly established in your unconscious.
Some things you may want to examine/ experiment with along the way: plectrum's thickness/stiffness; angle of pick to strings (bent over or straight up); angle of strum to strings-plane (flat, or slightly concave/-vex); amound of rotation of wrist, if any; balance of tension vs.flexitiblity of elbow, wrist, fingers; length of strum; volume & tone of Down-strum vs. Up. Please suggest more if you can think of any.. <gr>
Along the way you might also try machine-gunning single strings, pairs, just the top four, bottom four.
Successive Up-Ups, successive Down-Downs might be good technical challenges with a metronome.. Again, start at comfortable speed & work up notch by notch as you become comfortable / automatic with each tempo.
Good luck - and let us know how using a metronome works for you.
Machinegun strumming
Machinegun strumming
ive seen this tecnique being used by people on the bouzouki and guitar, is it just a matter of building up speed,and would you use a metronome while practising it.? i suppose its just a [dudududu] speeded up really fast in time with a tune, i wouldnt like to use it all the time though just now and again.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Jerry Mac
Re: Machinegun strumming
Some might advocate to machinegun all strummers. That's why I looked on this thread.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Machinegun strumming
Unless you can do it exceptionally quietly, I agree with the lad above.
It's both unsubtle and unmusical.
I call it "stirring the pudding ". I've known a proponent of it break up a really good session.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Machinegun strumming
Donal Lunny?
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Machinegun strumming
I saw Solas this week. Strum like that and you can be in my band. I don't think it's dudu.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Machinegun strumming
I disapprove of "machine-gun" style strumming also--even though I don't play guitar. I did see Solas when they came here and performed. I was impressed by the speed of John Doyle's guitar playing even though I didn't like it.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Machinegun strumming
Our guitarist is a machine-gunner. All that means is that half of the time he generally plays too fast and loud and the other half his arm gets tired so he slows way down. Any advice?
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Munichg
Re: Machinegun strumming
sack him
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Machinegun strumming
The answer is to think all rhythms in half time. This is true for backers and melody players.
Instead of counting a jig (for instance) as a frenetic flailing furious fast * 123223323423123223323423… feel the pulse (at the same tempo) as 1 (breathe!) 3 (breathe!), 1 (breathe!) 3 (breathe!) It will keep you in better overall time and also keeps the acceleration down. It works for reel and everything else as well.
You can judge what measure length is going on in players head’s when they do the foot stomping stuff. Most bash away with a fast “four to the floor”.
Also try playing an arpeggio (that word doesn’t mean “harp-like” for nothing!) on the first beat of the bar, remember the melody will fill in the rhythm. This is particularly useful for slip jigs. No need to thrash away like Johnny Ramone or the guitar holder in Napalm Death.
BUT! As someone said here just the other day “Shave and a haircut Two bits” à la Bo Diddley is fab for reels! It “reely” is! But like all backing techniques: don’t over do it!
Sorry this missive is a bit confused!
Krick
* Why do all these words start with “F”?
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Machinegun strumming
'stirring the pudding' - HA!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Machinegun strumming
Something that should be done ONLY if requested by the melody players - personally, it does my head and ears in!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Machinegun strumming
"Something that should be done ONLY if requested by the melody players - personally, it does my head and ears in!"
Ron - I'm not a great fan of 'heavy' strumming myself, but I'd hate to go to a session where people tell each other how to play. Ideally, the musicians should be able to complement each other just by listening to one another. That doesn't always happen, of course, but no amount of prior discussion can make it happen.
BTW, Jerry Mac is a highly accomplished and sensitive backer on guitar and bouzouki, and was asking *how* to do it, not *when* or *whether*.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by granama
Re: Machinegun strumming
Some like their doxy ortho only. Yawn.
Look: strum only with melody players good enough to interestingly ornament said strumming or it's a waste of your time. John Doyle knows this and chooses well.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Machinegun strumming
Sure granama - I understand what you mean. I wasn't meaning to criticize anyone at all. Jerry Mac does indeed say that he would just use it now and again - which to me says that he is probably a very sensitive musician. I was was only expressing my own personal viewpoint about this - really, that the backer (and I am one myself), should be sensitive to what the other musicians are comfortable with. That could mean anything from tickling the strings, to machine-gun stuff - the latter of which I myself try to avoid.
Re the how to question - just work away at it and build up the right hand technique. I wouldn't bother with a metronome.
Cheers
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Machine gunning strummers
An MG 42 should do the job well, shall I bring the shovels and quick lime?
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Machinegun strumming
LOL!
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Machinegun strumming
I know a couple of great machine gunners. But they're terrific accompanists no matter what context they're in.
I like the dramatic effect in some places. Once in a while.
Once in a great while.
If you want to try it, use a fairly light pick.
And have a backup plan if you drop it.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Machinegun strumming
Many of the better strummers will hit every eighth note with their strumming. Two of the more famous players that I have seen doing this up close and personal are John Doyle and Dennis Cahill. Of course, this constant pulse is very, very light, with accents thrown in on top of the pulse.
The 'machine gun' effect comes when someone tries to do the same thing, but without the finesse--a steady stream of undifferentiated heavy strums.
My former guitar teacher (Matt Heaton from the Boston area) helped me in this direction, and did suggest using a metronome to practice slowly increasing the speed when I was first trying to achieve this sound. He showed me how to strum more with the forearm and less with the wrist, and again, the stress was on a light touch.
I ain't there yet, may never be, but a good teacher can sure move you in the right direction.
# Posted on June 7th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Machinegun strumming
Al - Wow! Matt was your teacher! He's an absolute master at this sort of stuff. I went to one of his workshops a couple of years ago, and learned a ton. About the first half of the lesson was just about strumming. He and his band are back this year at a local "Celtic" festival (there's also a bluegrass band, albeit a good one, and some contra-dance types, so it's not really that Celtic), but unfortunately it appears that there aren't going to be any workshops or I'd definitely show up.
From John Doyle's DVD: The pick that he uses is what he calls a "Sixty Millimeter USA Nylon", which I believe is a Dunlop .60. Oddly enough, my current pick of choice.
# Posted on June 8th 2008 by tomw
Re: Machinegun strumming
..In answer to your previous question, [quote] "is it just a matter of building up speed,and would you use a metronome while practising it.?" -- IMHO -- a partial, but solid -- YES!
Try using a metronome, and see what happens!
I worked up a reel, flatpicking on guitar, from 80 beats/min. on Friday to 110 BPM on Monday, ie., 10 BPM / day, with an hour per day of practice.
You'll have to use the previously discussed, "start at comfortable tempo and build up bit by bit" - method. Each tempo therefore becomes "automatic," ie., firmly established in your unconscious.
Some things you may want to examine/ experiment with along the way: plectrum's thickness/stiffness; angle of pick to strings (bent over or straight up); angle of strum to strings-plane (flat, or slightly concave/-vex); amound of rotation of wrist, if any; balance of tension vs.flexitiblity of elbow, wrist, fingers; length of strum; volume & tone of Down-strum vs. Up. Please suggest more if you can think of any.. <gr>
Along the way you might also try machine-gunning single strings, pairs, just the top four, bottom four.
Successive Up-Ups, successive Down-Downs might be good technical challenges with a metronome.. Again, start at comfortable speed & work up notch by notch as you become comfortable / automatic with each tempo.
Good luck - and let us know how using a metronome works for you.
# Posted on June 9th 2008 by jimmydearing