Can any one shed light on this phenomenon. How do great banjo players get that placement of ornamentation. Is it a formulated practice where there is an accepted place or beats
where you would put say, a triplet or those two note slurs. Do banjo players use phantom notes ie. rolling of an adjacent string onto the melody note. I've listened to a fair bit of banjo
and apart from loving it, I've had this feeling that there is a definite ornamentation pattern there, however syncopated.
It's just a feeling, an instinct, a personal way of articulating the tune.
Listen to, say, Kevin Griffin playing Belles of Tipperary with Ceili Bandits, one of my favourite banjo recordings. The triplets etc sound perfectly naturally placed but they're not in the places I'd have thought to play them, before hearing him. Or anything by Gary Peterson with Hom Bru - he's a law unto himself, and so he should be. Fortunately there still isn't too much of a set idea on how one should play the banjo (though you can of course hear folk club worthies pontificating at length on it) , and unlike most (for example) fiddle and flute players, there is little formal instruction and no risk of being taught classical first! So banjo players tend to have very natural and more widely diverging individualistic styles.
You might think (as I did) that the triplets, or perhaps more accurately, as Peterson says, "bursts of tremelo", should go in place of where other instruments might play a sustained single note, but I find that the players I like listening to are nowhere near as predictable as that.
Having said that, for listening pleasure one of my favourites is Mickey Austin of Orkney who hardly plays any ornamentation. Now there's a guy with plunk.
Yes, thanks Bren. I remember you and I mentioning Kevin Griffin once before and he's who springs to my mind. I think
you have reinforced what I have feared all along. There is no
formula, Gulp.
i agree with Bren. i don't know much about banjo, but on guitar, you learn some different ornamentations, and eventually you can hear them in certain spots in the tune and throw them in. at least thats how i do it.
If you listen to the elite level banjo players, they don't usually repeat the triplets in the same places as they play through the tune. While the tenor banjo is limited in the types of ornaments that it can produce (although not as limited as some think) the imaginations of the players is not.
John Carty is a master at the unexpected ornament and Keiran Hanrahan has gone quite a distance with left hand ornaments.
One technical note, triplets are often hard to do on the banjo at speed for a variety of reasons. Some players are gifted with the ability to play them every note at any speed, but that is annoying at best. When you hear a Kevin Griffin you don't usually hear the triplets unless you are specifically listening for them. Instead, you hear his interpretation of the tune and later on realize that those diddly parts were triplets.
The triplets are meant to enhance the tune, usually rhythmically and are not part of the tune, per se. That's why you hear someone like John Carty change the ornamentation and the timing (and sometimes the notes) on the second and third times through.
What aboutye chuneboi?
I find that there is a pattern to ornamentation, but it applies to the player and not just the instrument - it is entirely individual. More of a soul attack. More avante garde abstract way of 'painting the tune' as opposed to the regulated paint-by-numbers/insert ornamentation here type thing.
I like hearing a broader spectrum as opposed to a robotic approach.
But then again I never like hearing (or playing) the same tune the same way twice.
Give it stick.
Ornamentus Banjous
Ornamentus Banjous
Can any one shed light on this phenomenon. How do great banjo players get that placement of ornamentation. Is it a formulated practice where there is an accepted place or beats
where you would put say, a triplet or those two note slurs. Do banjo players use phantom notes ie. rolling of an adjacent string onto the melody note. I've listened to a fair bit of banjo
and apart from loving it, I've had this feeling that there is a definite ornamentation pattern there, however syncopated.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
I don't think the best players have a pattern.
It's just a feeling, an instinct, a personal way of articulating the tune.
Listen to, say, Kevin Griffin playing Belles of Tipperary with Ceili Bandits, one of my favourite banjo recordings. The triplets etc sound perfectly naturally placed but they're not in the places I'd have thought to play them, before hearing him. Or anything by Gary Peterson with Hom Bru - he's a law unto himself, and so he should be. Fortunately there still isn't too much of a set idea on how one should play the banjo (though you can of course hear folk club worthies pontificating at length on it) , and unlike most (for example) fiddle and flute players, there is little formal instruction and no risk of being taught classical first! So banjo players tend to have very natural and more widely diverging individualistic styles.
You might think (as I did) that the triplets, or perhaps more accurately, as Peterson says, "bursts of tremelo", should go in place of where other instruments might play a sustained single note, but I find that the players I like listening to are nowhere near as predictable as that.
Having said that, for listening pleasure one of my favourites is Mickey Austin of Orkney who hardly plays any ornamentation. Now there's a guy with plunk.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by Bren
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
Yes, thanks Bren. I remember you and I mentioning Kevin Griffin once before and he's who springs to my mind. I think
you have reinforced what I have feared all along. There is no
formula, Gulp.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
Bren. P.S. "Bursts of Tremolo " Brilliant!
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
Peterson's quote not mine. Check out his myspace pages - brilliant!
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by Bren
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
And this interview:
http://www.mandolin.org.uk/interviews/gary_peterson.php
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by Bren
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
i agree with Bren. i don't know much about banjo, but on guitar, you learn some different ornamentations, and eventually you can hear them in certain spots in the tune and throw them in. at least thats how i do it.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by sonofodin
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
If you listen to the elite level banjo players, they don't usually repeat the triplets in the same places as they play through the tune. While the tenor banjo is limited in the types of ornaments that it can produce (although not as limited as some think) the imaginations of the players is not.
John Carty is a master at the unexpected ornament and Keiran Hanrahan has gone quite a distance with left hand ornaments.
One technical note, triplets are often hard to do on the banjo at speed for a variety of reasons. Some players are gifted with the ability to play them every note at any speed, but that is annoying at best. When you hear a Kevin Griffin you don't usually hear the triplets unless you are specifically listening for them. Instead, you hear his interpretation of the tune and later on realize that those diddly parts were triplets.
The triplets are meant to enhance the tune, usually rhythmically and are not part of the tune, per se. That's why you hear someone like John Carty change the ornamentation and the timing (and sometimes the notes) on the second and third times through.
MIke Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
What aboutye chuneboi?
I find that there is a pattern to ornamentation, but it applies to the player and not just the instrument - it is entirely individual. More of a soul attack. More avante garde abstract way of 'painting the tune' as opposed to the regulated paint-by-numbers/insert ornamentation here type thing.
I like hearing a broader spectrum as opposed to a robotic approach.
But then again I never like hearing (or playing) the same tune the same way twice.
Give it stick.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Greenwiggle
Re: Ornamentus Banjous
Thanks fellas. good links. cheers michael. i am more enlightened. Slim.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by chuneboi slim