Last friday an envelope arrived in the mail containing a cd of Patrick Kelly from Cree. So I had a listen. Great stuff...crazy 'out of tune' chording on that last nasty note of the Mason's Apron. In your face. Brilliant. So, my question -- and it relates to various threads posted recenty re the 'nyah' and comments vis a vis Kennedy's post about sight reading (and Will's good comments vis a vis the "syrup" in that woman's playing in the vid clip) -- is, how can we get the nastiness back into ITM and our own playing? Where have the barks, scrapes, wild chording, and grumbles gone?. Or, conversely, is it in danger of disappearing?
I hear wildness [but amazing control too] in The Raineys....in their swing and brilliantly crooked arrangements and wild tunings. I hear it in others like Padraig O'keeffe's solo recordings. I can hear it revived in various samples of Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh's playing...esp. that 1999 recording and things I've picked up and/or acquired from his workshop playing. Pat O'Connor is another. Johnny Doherty as well perhaps and many other old timers.
Is this lack of edge, this polish that so many ITM groups and even solo artists seem to lean towards today a function of us hearing differently -- or are we maybe expecting a nice, neat, polished up music? You see it in the young Comhaltas players (as good as they are, and they play light years beyond me)...but still...it lacks something. It's not just the 'nyah' that's missing, it's what I might call *imaginative harshness* [for lack of a better term].
It's all Hi Fi to my ears, but I liked the Lo Fi players. The music seemed to have room to breathe and expand when they played tunes...I mourn the lost wildness. Or am I being an old fart here?
We need some players who will walk the razor's edge more imho. Just having a look thru those Comhaltas vids and you see nothing of that chance taking...esp. in fiddle playing.
The 'nasty' - I am all for this. I also like your "imaginative harshness". I've always liked the music best when it's 'wild', perhaps a little 'untamed', not sloppy or poor, mind you, but maybe pushing the line between in control and out of it. In this, it reminds me of punk because of the energy and honesty, truly genuine. Punk being just another form of folk music, when it's energetic and genuine that is, much like traditional music is good when it is energetic and genuine.
Too much spit and polish has the tendency to make people think it's less genuine, for whatever reason. Grime, dirt and the 'nasty' remind folks that when it is best, the music is blatantly honest and genuine, with boundless energy.
Far from me to criticize excellent players such as the Comhaltas, they are absolutely fantastic, my humble ears cannot hear a single imperfection in their playing. However when ITM is played in such a perfect polished way, it seems like the music is the background of a movie and you stop paying attention to the music...
May way of explaining this is that it feels less human when it's perfect, because humans are emotional and imperfect beings.
But with this I mean no criticism to "polished"players. On the contrary... I admire and look up to them, I wish I could be even 10% as polished as they are... and then i would think about what to do to bring the nastiness to my ITM playing :D I guess I would start playing lots of new tunes, on the fly, by ear, so that it would increase the challenge and make things more wild... or perhaps I would dedicate myself to improvisation... One can always find new new challenges...
SW:
I like your comparison! Maybe too like some early blues music [? ]
Having tried to gamely 'insert' some of that wildness [as if it were a 'technique' which it probably isn't, more of an approach or way of hearing the music maybe] into my playing I relaize how insanely hard it is to do...it's that fine edge. But first it's that imaginative streak of *knowing what to put in in the first place* or, maybe, intuitively feeling what intangible possibilities this music or the particular tune at hand have. I think of Doherty's Paddy's Rambles in the Park....eerie and loney and beautiful. Paddy Glackin did a great version of it too.
I think the "knowing" part is probably genious [plus experience], and the actual playing of it probably taste and some more genius thrown in [ in terms of using techniques never taught, 'notated' or explained in fiddle tutor books].
And likely at the end of the day the only way one *can* know is by spending a lifetime with the music playing with and listening to great sources, dead or alive.
I've been told that a good Irish fiddler can represent a whole band's worth of sounds. There are double stops for harmony lines, some quick notes on the G string for bass--and the "grime, dirt, and 'nasty' " parts represent percussion. At its best, it's all deliberate, and well controlled.
Yes probably but so what,that would be me too 8).
I'm currently revisiting Willie Clancy,i play him to death then leave him alone for a month or so say, then listen again and so on.mind you too much Willie makes you silly,some of his stuff is mind blowing and maybe not a player to try and imitate too much as its too frustrating,man was a genius.I dont think the wildness or whatever you call it can be learned as such its just some people are that way out. totally agree though i miss it,its that that really floats my scrote if im honest.
J.D
Adding in wacky stuff is not a technique to be learned. It's a basic expression of personality, as effortless and natural and as drumming your hands against a table as you walk by, or deciding to kick a rock that you see on the path, or singing along with the radio. It's just something you do because, well, you want to. There is a child-like playfulness that you need to tap into, something that serious adult life may have unfortunately sent into hiding.
I think that you don't worry about whether or not to do it (play nasty/wacky/whatever), or exactly how or where or when to do it. You just do it. And then keep what you like and change or discard what you don't. And some people will appreciate it and some won't. It's up to you to decide how much any of this matters to you. There could be bad consequences too, like disapproval from your session-mates...so in the end you need to decide what's important to you...
Paddy Canny is a total thrill for me to listen to, but my wife will never agree...
During the punk era I read that punk was a form of folk music, so I duly collected some albums and somehow developed a taste for it. All I got was a headache cos it just wasn't me. As soon as I realised that I felt liberated.
As for the nastiness thing, yes of course, I agree with the sentiments here. It's the wildness that I like. That's why I like sessions with upwards of three flute players and a minimum of other instruments - the flute to me is a wild sounding instruments. That's also why my favourite recordings are session tapes and CD's. Both multiple flutes and/or session recordings are lamentably thin on the ground.
I have a theory that may apply that I have been hiding in my head for a while... The "Flow Not Groove Theory." ... It stems from pre-1900 traditions and styles of playing that are void of the "grooves" of pop, jazz, rock etc. These players are sometimes misunderstood these days with the predisposition of "groove" in modern players. Johnny Doherty definitely had it... the beat is there and it is steady... like water flowing down a waterfall.. or over rocks. It is contained, yet free.
Early blues? Nothing but the 'traditional music' of a particular 'folk' - folk music. Truly wild and genuine!
It's hard to say what it is, just like the nyah and all that, but it's there, we can recognize it when we hear it, and we miss it when it is not there. Maybe it's soul and passion above all else.
I agree, the flute is a perfectly wild sound. Had the pleasure of sitting right in-between two fine players at a session recently, both lovely wooden instruments, I was one happy fiddler.
The question is; have these young people we are disparaging listened/practiced/been taught too much ? Or; are we old foggies/folkies, out of touch with what the modern era expects ?
I'm all for a bit of Nyaah, but not too undisciplined, mind.
Johnny Doherty definitely had it... the beat is there and it is steady... like water flowing down a waterfall.. or over rocks. It is contained, yet free.
I know what you mean,i think it is all about phrasing, to me the term phrase encompasses everything rhythm /melody etc (obviously),but what i mean is if you get to understand phrasing, i mean really get it,then you should be able to deliver the nyah fella.
YMMV of course
Danny's message reminded me of the night I was in The Cobblestone and a stream of flute players walked through the door as if they were being cloned by some mad Molloy-fixated boffin outside. I don't think there was ever less than four playing and on most tunes there was at least six. Phil Spector's 'Wall of Sound' had nothing on that.
I've sometimes wondered why there are so few commercial recordings of actual sessions and reached the conclusion that most record companies still interested in Irish music don't reckon they're commercially viable (and more's the pity).
One forthcoming recording which may certainly intrigue some of the posters above is the Frank Cassidy album which Cairdeas is launching on the 7th of June. This consists of properly cleaned up versions of the tunes recorded from the Teelin fiddler by the Irish Folklore Commission in 1946 and features five duets with John Doherty. I've had a tape of this for some time and, despite, its poor quality, the vivacity of the musicians remains resplendent.
bb, please note; smiling or any sign of enjoyment displayed by a Comhaltas player will result in being marked down as it indicates a lack of serious intent.
It's a matter of attitude. We're all trying very hard to be 'compatible'.
Just wondering - could it be that the younger people with the 'nasty' edge go in for punk/rock/metal? Or 'celtic rock' ?
Isn't it what they always say about true artists - they don't care what the public thinks? (Or pretend to do so?)
I find myself disagreeing with almost everything that's been said above.
(The Emporer has no clothes, and all that...)
I can appreciate it when somone has worked hard on developing their skill, and I don't need to hear squeaks to convince myself it's "authentic." I love those Comhaltas videos.
Let's see: do i have anything else to confess? No, that's about it.
I replaced all my strings with whistling e's - now I can produce an amazingly high-pitched sympathetic drone that sets all the neighborhood dogs off. it's wild all right...
It's not the quality we're talking about here, it's keeping the passion, no matter how polished it gets. Coming from the classical background I'm hyper-sensitive to any clinical sounds because I've felt like I had to locate and eliminate them in my own playing. It wasn't too hard, but there's no road map, you have to rely on your passion for the music. Well, that and ear immersion therapy, it's a subliminal thing.
Nobody's talking about bad playing.
Some modern players have it too,its not an older is better thing.Try this i rate Mcgoldrick,so try notate one of his tunes,then take Willie Clancy and try notate everything he has going on in his whistling.These older players were not bad fekin players.
My wife's fiddle teacher called it 'grit' which I like better than 'nasty,' which as an adjective fits the blues a lot better than ITM. Or to rephrase something SWFL said, it is the passion that takes precedence over polish.
Having stood behind John Carty (no I'm not going to claim I was playing with him )at a session, and listened to some of his recordings, I think that he's a fellow that carries on the wildness, freedom and expression in his play. Seanamhac Tube station and Monaghan Jig are to me examples (the ones immediately popping into my brain) of his freedom within the music.
Also, when I listen to him play I kinda hear similarities between his playing and that of Tommy Peoples - am I right? I'm not sure. He is for me the best exponent of the wildness that you like.
Who else around at the moment plays with that sort of energy? (note I'm not saying there that JC is the only one - I'm just asking who does - coz I'd like to listen to them!)
For me, Paddy Canny exemplifies the untamed sound. The first track on "Traditional Music from the Legendary East Clare fiddler" Sean Sa Cheo is absolutely breathtaking. Listen if you haven't yet.
Yes paddy canny does it for me too,as does Junior Crehan,there is a few thats had it and got it.There is different flavours of it as well,i mean Kitty Hayes had it,Im convinced its that natural understanding of rhythm and phrasing that does it,and as said above passion.
Right I'm just loading Paddy in the smoke to my player (that has it too, in buckets 8), and im off to work.
J.D
The cd mentioned above,sounds like a decent listen,must get when released,.
Play concertina - many English folk-purists hate the yelps, shrieks, honks and drone chords used by many famous ITM anglo-players. I love it - More power to their elbow!!
I think the main reason the 'nasty' is absent from much trad today is due to album production qualities. In order to reach a wider market some artists feel they have to have a really smooth 'perfect' sound. The main difference between the Bothy Band and most of the bands today is that the Bothy Band was pure nasty, aggressive music, whereas their so-called successors are all smooth, pleasant sounding watered down stuff.
I think one thing that could help bring the nasty sounds back into the minds of younger players would be if a new band came along with a similar aggressive attitude to the music, yet did something new with it, it couldn't be just a Bothy Band clone.
There are plenty of really good young musicians out there and some of them play in a wild way, unfortunately they are the minority, most young musicians I see just seem to either play dull Comhaltas style or copy sets off Lunasa and Solas albums. But hey they're kids, kids need time to grow musically. It's only the rare prodigies that will develop a sense of the wild side of the music.
There is this one little kid I know who plays the concertina and I swear she's like Kitty Hayes in how she plays, yet she has her own personality too. She seems to know all the tunes and then some! She must be only 9 or so.
Overall it would be great if younger musicians listened more to the old masters (there are of course some wise ones that do) but you see you have to recognise that the old musicians just aren't 'cool' to most young musicians and most young people try their utmost to be cool. So until they loose that vain pursuit they're not going to develop the way some of us would like them to.
i think i know what you guys are talking about. for me though, when i learn a song, i have the habit to play it exactly how i heard it. but i think when i comes to ITM, the tune is more of a guideline, rather than a strict rule, if you take my meaning for it. like when you listen to jazz and blues, one song is never played the same twice. it still has the same feel and basic melody, but its different every time.
One of the grand masters of "nasty" playing I think is Larry Nugent who is capable of tearing a musical hole into the space-time continuum. His reorded stuff is suggestive of this, but the real raw kind of playing I think we're referring to here comes out in sessions and other informal settings.
This "nasty" element can come out in varios forms. Shrieking pulse, ad-lib syncopation, dramatic changes in volume, various types of phrasing, extended long notes or trills, alternating the mode and so forth. The paradoxical thing about playing "nasty", however, is that it requires an extra-ordinary level of control.
As for Larry's playing, his phrasing and pulse is always rock solid, and in fact I'd say most of his playing is in the "gentle" zone especially when playing with fiddles. But he tends to use "nasty" playing as one color in a whole pallette of musical choices. It can create an incredible drama in a tune, like crack for the ears.
When i first started learning whistle and later flute I often tried to introduce "nasty" elements before I had a solid handle on a tune. And indeed i did on occasion rip a musical hole in the space time continuum, but not in a good way.
So moral of the story: playing "nasty" takes a very high level of skill and musicianship, but when done right, it is a really exciting style of ITM.
How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Last friday an envelope arrived in the mail containing a cd of Patrick Kelly from Cree. So I had a listen. Great stuff...crazy 'out of tune' chording on that last nasty note of the Mason's Apron. In your face. Brilliant. So, my question -- and it relates to various threads posted recenty re the 'nyah' and comments vis a vis Kennedy's post about sight reading (and Will's good comments vis a vis the "syrup" in that woman's playing in the vid clip) -- is, how can we get the nastiness back into ITM and our own playing? Where have the barks, scrapes, wild chording, and grumbles gone?. Or, conversely, is it in danger of disappearing?
I hear wildness [but amazing control too] in The Raineys....in their swing and brilliantly crooked arrangements and wild tunings. I hear it in others like Padraig O'keeffe's solo recordings. I can hear it revived in various samples of Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh's playing...esp. that 1999 recording and things I've picked up and/or acquired from his workshop playing. Pat O'Connor is another. Johnny Doherty as well perhaps and many other old timers.
Is this lack of edge, this polish that so many ITM groups and even solo artists seem to lean towards today a function of us hearing differently -- or are we maybe expecting a nice, neat, polished up music? You see it in the young Comhaltas players (as good as they are, and they play light years beyond me)...but still...it lacks something. It's not just the 'nyah' that's missing, it's what I might call *imaginative harshness* [for lack of a better term].
It's all Hi Fi to my ears, but I liked the Lo Fi players. The music seemed to have room to breathe and expand when they played tunes...I mourn the lost wildness. Or am I being an old fart here?
We need some players who will walk the razor's edge more imho. Just having a look thru those Comhaltas vids and you see nothing of that chance taking...esp. in fiddle playing.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
The 'nasty' - I am all for this. I also like your "imaginative harshness". I've always liked the music best when it's 'wild', perhaps a little 'untamed', not sloppy or poor, mind you, but maybe pushing the line between in control and out of it. In this, it reminds me of punk because of the energy and honesty, truly genuine. Punk being just another form of folk music, when it's energetic and genuine that is, much like traditional music is good when it is energetic and genuine.
Too much spit and polish has the tendency to make people think it's less genuine, for whatever reason. Grime, dirt and the 'nasty' remind folks that when it is best, the music is blatantly honest and genuine, with boundless energy.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I couldn't agree with you guys more.
Far from me to criticize excellent players such as the Comhaltas, they are absolutely fantastic, my humble ears cannot hear a single imperfection in their playing. However when ITM is played in such a perfect polished way, it seems like the music is the background of a movie and you stop paying attention to the music...
May way of explaining this is that it feels less human when it's perfect, because humans are emotional and imperfect beings.
But with this I mean no criticism to "polished"players. On the contrary... I admire and look up to them, I wish I could be even 10% as polished as they are... and then i would think about what to do to bring the nastiness to my ITM playing :D I guess I would start playing lots of new tunes, on the fly, by ear, so that it would increase the challenge and make things more wild... or perhaps I would dedicate myself to improvisation... One can always find new new challenges...
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by cesarpim
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
SW:
I like your comparison! Maybe too like some early blues music [? ]
Having tried to gamely 'insert' some of that wildness [as if it were a 'technique' which it probably isn't, more of an approach or way of hearing the music maybe] into my playing I relaize how insanely hard it is to do...it's that fine edge. But first it's that imaginative streak of *knowing what to put in in the first place* or, maybe, intuitively feeling what intangible possibilities this music or the particular tune at hand have. I think of Doherty's Paddy's Rambles in the Park....eerie and loney and beautiful. Paddy Glackin did a great version of it too.
I think the "knowing" part is probably genious [plus experience], and the actual playing of it probably taste and some more genius thrown in [ in terms of using techniques never taught, 'notated' or explained in fiddle tutor books].
And likely at the end of the day the only way one *can* know is by spending a lifetime with the music playing with and listening to great sources, dead or alive.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I've been told that a good Irish fiddler can represent a whole band's worth of sounds. There are double stops for harmony lines, some quick notes on the G string for bass--and the "grime, dirt, and 'nasty' " parts represent percussion. At its best, it's all deliberate, and well controlled.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by John Galt
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Or am I being an old fart here?
Yes probably but so what,that would be me too 8).
I'm currently revisiting Willie Clancy,i play him to death then leave him alone for a month or so say, then listen again and so on.mind you too much Willie makes you silly,some of his stuff is mind blowing and maybe not a player to try and imitate too much as its too frustrating,man was a genius.I dont think the wildness or whatever you call it can be learned as such its just some people are that way out. totally agree though i miss it,its that that really floats my scrote if im honest.
J.D
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by J.D
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
mtodd, I think you are on the right track.
Adding in wacky stuff is not a technique to be learned. It's a basic expression of personality, as effortless and natural and as drumming your hands against a table as you walk by, or deciding to kick a rock that you see on the path, or singing along with the radio. It's just something you do because, well, you want to. There is a child-like playfulness that you need to tap into, something that serious adult life may have unfortunately sent into hiding.
I think that you don't worry about whether or not to do it (play nasty/wacky/whatever), or exactly how or where or when to do it. You just do it. And then keep what you like and change or discard what you don't. And some people will appreciate it and some won't. It's up to you to decide how much any of this matters to you. There could be bad consequences too, like disapproval from your session-mates...so in the end you need to decide what's important to you...
Paddy Canny is a total thrill for me to listen to, but my wife will never agree...
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by timmy!
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
During the punk era I read that punk was a form of folk music, so I duly collected some albums and somehow developed a taste for it. All I got was a headache cos it just wasn't me. As soon as I realised that I felt liberated.
As for the nastiness thing, yes of course, I agree with the sentiments here. It's the wildness that I like. That's why I like sessions with upwards of three flute players and a minimum of other instruments - the flute to me is a wild sounding instruments. That's also why my favourite recordings are session tapes and CD's. Both multiple flutes and/or session recordings are lamentably thin on the ground.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I have a theory that may apply that I have been hiding in my head for a while... The "Flow Not Groove Theory." ... It stems from pre-1900 traditions and styles of playing that are void of the "grooves" of pop, jazz, rock etc. These players are sometimes misunderstood these days with the predisposition of "groove" in modern players. Johnny Doherty definitely had it... the beat is there and it is steady... like water flowing down a waterfall.. or over rocks. It is contained, yet free.
For me tradional music MUST have FNGT.
-McCracken
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by McCracken
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Early blues? Nothing but the 'traditional music' of a particular 'folk' - folk music. Truly wild and genuine!
It's hard to say what it is, just like the nyah and all that, but it's there, we can recognize it when we hear it, and we miss it when it is not there. Maybe it's soul and passion above all else.
I agree, the flute is a perfectly wild sound. Had the pleasure of sitting right in-between two fine players at a session recently, both lovely wooden instruments, I was one happy fiddler.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
The question is; have these young people we are disparaging listened/practiced/been taught too much ? Or; are we old foggies/folkies, out of touch with what the modern era expects ?
I'm all for a bit of Nyaah, but not too undisciplined, mind.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Johnny Doherty definitely had it... the beat is there and it is steady... like water flowing down a waterfall.. or over rocks. It is contained, yet free.
I know what you mean,i think it is all about phrasing, to me the term phrase encompasses everything rhythm /melody etc (obviously),but what i mean is if you get to understand phrasing, i mean really get it,then you should be able to deliver the nyah fella.
YMMV of course
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by J.D
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Danny's message reminded me of the night I was in The Cobblestone and a stream of flute players walked through the door as if they were being cloned by some mad Molloy-fixated boffin outside. I don't think there was ever less than four playing and on most tunes there was at least six. Phil Spector's 'Wall of Sound' had nothing on that.
I've sometimes wondered why there are so few commercial recordings of actual sessions and reached the conclusion that most record companies still interested in Irish music don't reckon they're commercially viable (and more's the pity).
One forthcoming recording which may certainly intrigue some of the posters above is the Frank Cassidy album which Cairdeas is launching on the 7th of June. This consists of properly cleaned up versions of the tunes recorded from the Teelin fiddler by the Irish Folklore Commission in 1946 and features five duets with John Doherty. I've had a tape of this for some time and, despite, its poor quality, the vivacity of the musicians remains resplendent.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
You're on the right track.First step in the reintroduce nasty program,banish electronic tuners.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by dafydd
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Comhaltas players often look as though they are doing community service, as a punishment.
Mind you, I think I saw one smile once, around 1983, or was it 1984................
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
bb, please note; smiling or any sign of enjoyment displayed by a Comhaltas player will result in being marked down as it indicates a lack of serious intent.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by john knoss
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
It's a matter of attitude. We're all trying very hard to be 'compatible'.
Just wondering - could it be that the younger people with the 'nasty' edge go in for punk/rock/metal? Or 'celtic rock' ?
Isn't it what they always say about true artists - they don't care what the public thinks? (Or pretend to do so?)
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by kuec
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
that wildness is what i love about old pipe recordings.
the barking, squawling, distorted recordings.
i like fiddles that howl
i HATE the sound of expensive well made guitars.
i like banjos that TWANG and PLUNK.
im not into perfect rinky dink triplets.
i think the problem is that somewhere along the line, people thought traditional music had to sound "sophisticated" in order to compete with jazz.
lets hear it for the mentalists!
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by DubChieftain
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I find myself disagreeing with almost everything that's been said above.
(The Emporer has no clothes, and all that...)
I can appreciate it when somone has worked hard on developing their skill, and I don't need to hear squeaks to convince myself it's "authentic." I love those Comhaltas videos.
Let's see: do i have anything else to confess? No, that's about it.
(But I do love recordings of sessions.)
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by grego
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I replaced all my strings with whistling e's - now I can produce an amazingly high-pitched sympathetic drone that sets all the neighborhood dogs off. it's wild all right...
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by airport
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
It's not the quality we're talking about here, it's keeping the passion, no matter how polished it gets. Coming from the classical background I'm hyper-sensitive to any clinical sounds because I've felt like I had to locate and eliminate them in my own playing. It wasn't too hard, but there's no road map, you have to rely on your passion for the music. Well, that and ear immersion therapy, it's a subliminal thing.
# Posted on June 3rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Nobody's talking about bad playing.
Some modern players have it too,its not an older is better thing.Try this i rate Mcgoldrick,so try notate one of his tunes,then take Willie Clancy and try notate everything he has going on in his whistling.These older players were not bad fekin players.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by J.D
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
My wife's fiddle teacher called it 'grit' which I like better than 'nasty,' which as an adjective fits the blues a lot better than ITM. Or to rephrase something SWFL said, it is the passion that takes precedence over polish.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Having stood behind John Carty (no I'm not going to claim I was playing with him
)at a session, and listened to some of his recordings, I think that he's a fellow that carries on the wildness, freedom and expression in his play. Seanamhac Tube station and Monaghan Jig are to me examples (the ones immediately popping into my brain) of his freedom within the music.
Also, when I listen to him play I kinda hear similarities between his playing and that of Tommy Peoples - am I right? I'm not sure. He is for me the best exponent of the wildness that you like.
Who else around at the moment plays with that sort of energy? (note I'm not saying there that JC is the only one - I'm just asking who does - coz I'd like to listen to them!)
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Have you heard Brian Rooney?
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by airport
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
For me, Paddy Canny exemplifies the untamed sound. The first track on "Traditional Music from the Legendary East Clare fiddler" Sean Sa Cheo is absolutely breathtaking. Listen if you haven't yet.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by leoj
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Yes paddy canny does it for me too,as does Junior Crehan,there is a few thats had it and got it.There is different flavours of it as well,i mean Kitty Hayes had it,Im convinced its that natural understanding of rhythm and phrasing that does it,and as said above passion.
Right I'm just loading Paddy in the smoke to my player (that has it too, in buckets 8), and im off to work.
J.D
The cd mentioned above,sounds like a decent listen,must get when released,.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by J.D
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I love Paddy in the Smoke. If it were possible to wear out a digital track this one would have some static by now.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by leoj
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
Play concertina - many English folk-purists hate the yelps, shrieks, honks and drone chords used by many famous ITM anglo-players. I love it - More power to their elbow!!
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
I think the main reason the 'nasty' is absent from much trad today is due to album production qualities. In order to reach a wider market some artists feel they have to have a really smooth 'perfect' sound. The main difference between the Bothy Band and most of the bands today is that the Bothy Band was pure nasty, aggressive music, whereas their so-called successors are all smooth, pleasant sounding watered down stuff.
I think one thing that could help bring the nasty sounds back into the minds of younger players would be if a new band came along with a similar aggressive attitude to the music, yet did something new with it, it couldn't be just a Bothy Band clone.
There are plenty of really good young musicians out there and some of them play in a wild way, unfortunately they are the minority, most young musicians I see just seem to either play dull Comhaltas style or copy sets off Lunasa and Solas albums. But hey they're kids, kids need time to grow musically. It's only the rare prodigies that will develop a sense of the wild side of the music.
There is this one little kid I know who plays the concertina and I swear she's like Kitty Hayes in how she plays, yet she has her own personality too. She seems to know all the tunes and then some! She must be only 9 or so.
Overall it would be great if younger musicians listened more to the old masters (there are of course some wise ones that do) but you see you have to recognise that the old musicians just aren't 'cool' to most young musicians and most young people try their utmost to be cool. So until they loose that vain pursuit they're not going to develop the way some of us would like them to.
Right, patronising lecture over
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
i think i know what you guys are talking about. for me though, when i learn a song, i have the habit to play it exactly how i heard it. but i think when i comes to ITM, the tune is more of a guideline, rather than a strict rule, if you take my meaning for it. like when you listen to jazz and blues, one song is never played the same twice. it still has the same feel and basic melody, but its different every time.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by sonofodin
Re: How can we put the 'nasty' back into ITM?
One of the grand masters of "nasty" playing I think is Larry Nugent who is capable of tearing a musical hole into the space-time continuum. His reorded stuff is suggestive of this, but the real raw kind of playing I think we're referring to here comes out in sessions and other informal settings.
This "nasty" element can come out in varios forms. Shrieking pulse, ad-lib syncopation, dramatic changes in volume, various types of phrasing, extended long notes or trills, alternating the mode and so forth. The paradoxical thing about playing "nasty", however, is that it requires an extra-ordinary level of control.
As for Larry's playing, his phrasing and pulse is always rock solid, and in fact I'd say most of his playing is in the "gentle" zone especially when playing with fiddles. But he tends to use "nasty" playing as one color in a whole pallette of musical choices. It can create an incredible drama in a tune, like crack for the ears.
When i first started learning whistle and later flute I often tried to introduce "nasty" elements before I had a solid handle on a tune. And indeed i did on occasion rip a musical hole in the space time continuum, but not in a good way.
So moral of the story: playing "nasty" takes a very high level of skill and musicianship, but when done right, it is a really exciting style of ITM.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Brendan