Hi! Im new to this so bare with me! Ive been trying to learn guitar backup for a time now and always seem to come up stuck. I love the rhythmic styles highlighted with the use drop D. Perhaps my biggest problem is that despite living in Shetland and having a brother who is an accomplished fiddler playing with the likes of boys of the loch I cant find a session or even a livingroom with someone to play along with and develop. So I guess cd's are going ot have to be my session for now. But where I was going to go with this was Ive been trying to build up various runs/progressions to use but to be honest havent been to successfull does anyone have any suggestions, maybe a few diamond chords to throw in?
Anything would be appreciated just to atleast feel like your in a session learning!
Cheers
It is very tough to find a way to practice backup because most of the recordings you want to play along with already have a backer, and when you get to a session, you don't want to be a hack. If you record a session, it may just not sound that good, it may be out of tune, it may have background noise, but my experience is that it is not a reasonable source.
Find a CD that has a backer you like, and try and figure out one thing he does at one part of one song. E.G. try and do some of the stuff that Ged Foley does on "In Tandem" with Kevin Burke. That will do wonders -- one tune at a time!
But aside from that, I completely agree with Michael, and I would go further. If you can find a friend to lay down a few tunes for you, unaccompanied, that will give you something to work with. In my case, I record myself playing tunes then try and back myself up. I can't say which is worse, but at least there are naked tunes there to experiment on.
Finally, find your own chords, the ones that work for you. There are multiple chord scales possible -- so learn what you can. Practice them over and over again. The chord scales are just as important to the backer as regular scales are to the melody player.
Ah, high and mighty me, with a reasonable post, Prometheus! what ho! you fire bringer you!
Have you played guitar for a while other than backup? or just new to it period? Can you back other music and are just having trouble with this music, or not backing at all?
If you are a total beginner, that is where I think chord charts come in the most handy. If your brother is a good one, he will put down some tunes SLOWLY and unaccompanied and with the key mentioned at the beginning of each tune, into a digital recorder for you, you can burn a CD from that. Then just mess around with what is on the chord charts for Dropped D tuning (I believe Mike Eskin might still have a very good chart available online free?) to find the right chording order for the simplest tunes. Get good on those, then ask for some more, a little harder.
I'd ask him for a reel, hornpipe and a jig in the keys of D, G, A major, A minor, D Modal, E minor and C major for starters, all slow paced. That will give you enough to work on for a good while, and maybe train your ears to sense the keys and structure of the tunes a bit.
Airs, Polkas, Slides, are all more challenging to back, and I'd leave them alone for the time being. Get the other structures down first, and most of all, enjoy practicing, if you really love it, hours will go by and you won't have noticed!
Many options as Eliot says... and that is what is precisely confusing about backing, and I know I may get fried for saying so here, but I believe really good backing or accompanying in many ways is more difficult than straight tune playing. A good backer knows the tunes as well as the melody player does, yet has to fly on instinct much of the time to make it interesting, and it's hard to teach that instinct to someone, even to convey the how of it. So when you have a good grasp of the basic tunes and keys, it's always wise to start learning the tunes too, you can use dots, but commit them to memory in time, a good backer backs because they love it, not because they can't pick out the melody. After you learn a bunch of tunes this way, learning more will get much easier. A good accompanist realizes all tunes have to be treated differently, knowing the key and the right chords is just part of it..... but the ground work needs laying first, so have that fiddler brother put down some tunes for you ad get a good chord chart. I have a CD I give to students that is just a whistle player friend, playing slowly in various keys. it really works.... in fact too well.... they don't come back for a good while, LOL! Too busy holed up with that CD. But that is a good thing!
This is always a difficult topic. The best backer I ever new personally used dropped D. He now lives back in Ireland. His name is Joe. The other best backer I know uses DADGAD, I won't mention his name but we played together for years and he is still one of my best friends. What I noticed about both of these styles and what made them startling is the focus on rhythm in the right hand. They both used guitars with a tone biased to the mid range and kept the rhythm fast and light. The influence of chord voicings was still there but it was the rhythm
that got you. Which brings me to my point. I think if your beginning to learn backing jigs and reels , while your practising, ask yourself " Would this get people dancing?" I think Dropped D is a good choice to pursue this.
He teaches pretty fast... but he certainly knows his way around the instrument. John plays in Drop D. I play in DADGAD but have used this DVD for picking up Rhythm & chord progressions.
Really, you have got all the advice you need: I played the guitar -fingerstyle - years ago then had a layoff for about 25 years, learning mandolin, fiddle and banjo, playing the tunes.
About 9 months ago I felt as you do now and searched on this site for some answers. What worked for me:
Micheal Eskin, who relied to you earlier, has a site with some easy to learn dropped d backup tips - an excellent starter.
Then, on his (and a lot of other people's recommendations) I moved on to the John Doyle video and book. This takes some study because there is a lot in the video that you just don't take in at first.
Thirdly, I started to flatpick the tunes as well - after all I'd been playing them on the banjo for years. Tony O'Rourke's site has got lots of help there.
Finally' for practising why not download ABC Navigator so you can slow down and work out chords to any tune you want?
But I do think your brother could be some help here!
To do it right you ultimately do need to learn the tunes and the structures of the types of tunes, but you need to do the basics first. The Eskin chord chart is a very good starting point. Get the feel for the backing a bit at home alone. You can learn tunes at the same time, maybe one practice session on them, another on the chord charts. More than for learning tunes to play out, but to get the feel of them...even picking them slowly by ear or dots, teaches your brain the structure of the tunes and will help you decide better what chords to use where.
Eventually I would encourage a student to toss the chord charts... that doesn't mean never use chords, but explore further out of the chord box and get into the melody a bit. I like to make up chords or partial chords from the melody itself. You pick out the tune and decide what needs a chord for a stress note or two, jump back on the melody a bit etc. The note itself, whether you know it intellectually (this is an F# for example) of by ear, tells you what the chord there should be. The note is a C, the chord will be a C, but listen for where it needs to change. You might also just play it with some surrounding open strings or one other string pressed down. Build the accompaniment out of the tune in time, rather than looking solely at chord charts.
This all may seem like Greek for the moment, and probably does if you are starting out, but save the thought for future use. For now become familiar with your fingerboard and strings, and what notes live where. You can do that with both chord charts and with picking out the tunes, but mostly, do it when inspired and in a good mood and enjoy all the little steps. They add up.
And my last peice of oddball advice... which is something that helped me greatly and still helps me improve more all the time.... and we are never 100% "there yet "with all this music and could always be better.... is listening to the top notch piano accompanists and listen to what they do. They never rest long on a chord, and play lots of snips of melody. they know the tunes, they ease into a chord or out with a few notes, the little syncopated moments etc. It's a real interesting study and can be applied to guitar, whether fingerpicked or flatpicked. First you need to know your instrument well and the structure of the tunes.
I'm intrigued that you can't find anyone to play with in Shetland - there must be more fiddlers (and good backing guitarists) per head there than anywhere. Have things quietened down there lately? Some Shelties I met in Stromness last week were implying that it had.
I assume you're aware of Brian Nicholson - pretty much the complete guitarist - lead and backup?
Years ago I was fortunate to get some tips from Peerie Willie Johnson, although they amounted to "Eddie Lang - thash the man"
You could start by learning the "Peerie WIllie D", (my term) which is basically a C chord taken to the 2nd fret with the first finger making a half bar. From there you get some good base runs and passing chords to other barred shapes
allot of good advice there! I know a huge amount of tunes to begin with, I can hear so much rhythm but seem to ge tlost when it comes to laying it down. Up here theres a real problem, probablly the most fiddle rich place on the world but the pubs no longer support the session its a strange thing!
sorry my post got cut off!! I know brian fairly well and allot of the musicains around here seem to think im good enough but seem to lack a bit of confidednce. I tend to try and do something different but It never seems to sound like what im trying to achieve! I guess its just pracice and maybe find a few to star a band and learn together. Cheers to all advice though it seems a great community!
I've been playing about 5 years now, using drop D (started out DADGAD and switched), and I would echo Rob's advice above, as it is pretty much what I did. Doyle's DVD is excellent, there is a ton to learn there. There are easier and more gentle styles than Doyle's, so just make sure you look at all the styles that are around and don't be locked in on just one. And Llig is right, learn the tunes--make sure the melody is in your head, and learn some leads, because they are a lot of fun too.
Been in that position, so I'm rooting for you to find some pickin' pals. In case you don't find anyone immediately,
work with CD's as Eliot reccomends. That how I learned and I'm still learning through them.
Best of luck to you--hang in there.
Thanks for that great video Wolfbird! I am building a 00 size at the moment.... slow as molasses but hope to have it ready for the trek to the Catskills Week. This is #5. It's addictive for sure. It was fun seeing how Sam irwin bends sides... never saw the soaked before, we spray them and keep spraying them. Maybe because he has a mold though,,,, different. And O'Dowd's comparison of the first guitar recordings to piano accompaniment.
The one issue is ... I forget who it was saying guitar players get influenced by jazz, pop, other music... yes maybe, but the main influence for this music I feel should be more the tunes themselves and what they do than other types of music. Unless a big super group that wants that hard driving sound, then I suppose that's what he meant and it works for them.
guitar backup
guitar backup
Hi! Im new to this so bare with me! Ive been trying to learn guitar backup for a time now and always seem to come up stuck. I love the rhythmic styles highlighted with the use drop D. Perhaps my biggest problem is that despite living in Shetland and having a brother who is an accomplished fiddler playing with the likes of boys of the loch I cant find a session or even a livingroom with someone to play along with and develop. So I guess cd's are going ot have to be my session for now. But where I was going to go with this was Ive been trying to build up various runs/progressions to use but to be honest havent been to successfull does anyone have any suggestions, maybe a few diamond chords to throw in?
Anything would be appreciated just to atleast feel like your in a session learning!
Cheers
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Keags
Re: guitar backup
I use AbcMus to play .abc files of tunes for practicing backup.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Michael Eskin
Re: guitar backup
It is very tough to find a way to practice backup because most of the recordings you want to play along with already have a backer, and when you get to a session, you don't want to be a hack. If you record a session, it may just not sound that good, it may be out of tune, it may have background noise, but my experience is that it is not a reasonable source.
Find a CD that has a backer you like, and try and figure out one thing he does at one part of one song. E.G. try and do some of the stuff that Ged Foley does on "In Tandem" with Kevin Burke. That will do wonders -- one tune at a time!
But aside from that, I completely agree with Michael, and I would go further. If you can find a friend to lay down a few tunes for you, unaccompanied, that will give you something to work with. In my case, I record myself playing tunes then try and back myself up. I can't say which is worse, but at least there are naked tunes there to experiment on.
Finally, find your own chords, the ones that work for you. There are multiple chord scales possible -- so learn what you can. Practice them over and over again. The chord scales are just as important to the backer as regular scales are to the melody player.
Ah, high and mighty me, with a reasonable post, Prometheus! what ho! you fire bringer you!
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by Eliot
Re: guitar backup
Have you played guitar for a while other than backup? or just new to it period? Can you back other music and are just having trouble with this music, or not backing at all?
If you are a total beginner, that is where I think chord charts come in the most handy. If your brother is a good one, he will put down some tunes SLOWLY and unaccompanied and with the key mentioned at the beginning of each tune, into a digital recorder for you, you can burn a CD from that. Then just mess around with what is on the chord charts for Dropped D tuning (I believe Mike Eskin might still have a very good chart available online free?) to find the right chording order for the simplest tunes. Get good on those, then ask for some more, a little harder.
I'd ask him for a reel, hornpipe and a jig in the keys of D, G, A major, A minor, D Modal, E minor and C major for starters, all slow paced. That will give you enough to work on for a good while, and maybe train your ears to sense the keys and structure of the tunes a bit.
Airs, Polkas, Slides, are all more challenging to back, and I'd leave them alone for the time being. Get the other structures down first, and most of all, enjoy practicing, if you really love it, hours will go by and you won't have noticed!
Many options as Eliot says... and that is what is precisely confusing about backing, and I know I may get fried for saying so here, but I believe really good backing or accompanying in many ways is more difficult than straight tune playing. A good backer knows the tunes as well as the melody player does, yet has to fly on instinct much of the time to make it interesting, and it's hard to teach that instinct to someone, even to convey the how of it. So when you have a good grasp of the basic tunes and keys, it's always wise to start learning the tunes too, you can use dots, but commit them to memory in time, a good backer backs because they love it, not because they can't pick out the melody. After you learn a bunch of tunes this way, learning more will get much easier. A good accompanist realizes all tunes have to be treated differently, knowing the key and the right chords is just part of it..... but the ground work needs laying first, so have that fiddler brother put down some tunes for you ad get a good chord chart. I have a CD I give to students that is just a whistle player friend, playing slowly in various keys. it really works.... in fact too well.... they don't come back for a good while, LOL! Too busy holed up with that CD. But that is a good thing!
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by irisnevins
Re: guitar backup
I've used my guitar for years to get people's back up.
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by drone
Re: guitar backup
learn the tunes
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: guitar backup
get a melody instrument such as fiddle, flute, box or banjo
# Posted on May 31st 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: guitar backup
This is always a difficult topic. The best backer I ever new personally used dropped D. He now lives back in Ireland. His name is Joe. The other best backer I know uses DADGAD, I won't mention his name but we played together for years and he is still one of my best friends. What I noticed about both of these styles and what made them startling is the focus on rhythm in the right hand. They both used guitars with a tone biased to the mid range and kept the rhythm fast and light. The influence of chord voicings was still there but it was the rhythm
that got you. Which brings me to my point. I think if your beginning to learn backing jigs and reels , while your practising, ask yourself " Would this get people dancing?" I think Dropped D is a good choice to pursue this.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: guitar backup
You could try this DVD from John Doyle:
http://www.homespuntapes.com/shop/category.aspx?ID=184
He teaches pretty fast... but he certainly knows his way around the instrument. John plays in Drop D. I play in DADGAD but have used this DVD for picking up Rhythm & chord progressions.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by davydd
Re: guitar backup
I cover some aspects of back-up guitar on my podcast at
www.irishguitarpod.com which may help
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: guitar backup
Really, you have got all the advice you need: I played the guitar -fingerstyle - years ago then had a layoff for about 25 years, learning mandolin, fiddle and banjo, playing the tunes.
About 9 months ago I felt as you do now and searched on this site for some answers. What worked for me:
Micheal Eskin, who relied to you earlier, has a site with some easy to learn dropped d backup tips - an excellent starter.
Then, on his (and a lot of other people's recommendations) I moved on to the John Doyle video and book. This takes some study because there is a lot in the video that you just don't take in at first.
Thirdly, I started to flatpick the tunes as well - after all I'd been playing them on the banjo for years. Tony O'Rourke's site has got lots of help there.
Finally' for practising why not download ABC Navigator so you can slow down and work out chords to any tune you want?
But I do think your brother could be some help here!
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by Rob
Re: guitar backup
To do it right you ultimately do need to learn the tunes and the structures of the types of tunes, but you need to do the basics first. The Eskin chord chart is a very good starting point. Get the feel for the backing a bit at home alone. You can learn tunes at the same time, maybe one practice session on them, another on the chord charts. More than for learning tunes to play out, but to get the feel of them...even picking them slowly by ear or dots, teaches your brain the structure of the tunes and will help you decide better what chords to use where.
Eventually I would encourage a student to toss the chord charts... that doesn't mean never use chords, but explore further out of the chord box and get into the melody a bit. I like to make up chords or partial chords from the melody itself. You pick out the tune and decide what needs a chord for a stress note or two, jump back on the melody a bit etc. The note itself, whether you know it intellectually (this is an F# for example) of by ear, tells you what the chord there should be. The note is a C, the chord will be a C, but listen for where it needs to change. You might also just play it with some surrounding open strings or one other string pressed down. Build the accompaniment out of the tune in time, rather than looking solely at chord charts.
This all may seem like Greek for the moment, and probably does if you are starting out, but save the thought for future use. For now become familiar with your fingerboard and strings, and what notes live where. You can do that with both chord charts and with picking out the tunes, but mostly, do it when inspired and in a good mood and enjoy all the little steps. They add up.
And my last peice of oddball advice... which is something that helped me greatly and still helps me improve more all the time.... and we are never 100% "there yet "with all this music and could always be better.... is listening to the top notch piano accompanists and listen to what they do. They never rest long on a chord, and play lots of snips of melody. they know the tunes, they ease into a chord or out with a few notes, the little syncopated moments etc. It's a real interesting study and can be applied to guitar, whether fingerpicked or flatpicked. First you need to know your instrument well and the structure of the tunes.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by irisnevins
Re: guitar backup
I'm intrigued that you can't find anyone to play with in Shetland - there must be more fiddlers (and good backing guitarists) per head there than anywhere. Have things quietened down there lately? Some Shelties I met in Stromness last week were implying that it had.
I assume you're aware of Brian Nicholson - pretty much the complete guitarist - lead and backup?
Years ago I was fortunate to get some tips from Peerie Willie Johnson, although they amounted to "Eddie Lang - thash the man"
You could start by learning the "Peerie WIllie D", (my term) which is basically a C chord taken to the 2nd fret with the first finger making a half bar. From there you get some good base runs and passing chords to other barred shapes
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: guitar backup
"bass runs" I meant.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: guitar backup
allot of good advice there! I know a huge amount of tunes to begin with, I can hear so much rhythm but seem to ge tlost when it comes to laying it down. Up here theres a real problem, probablly the most fiddle rich place on the world but the pubs no longer support the session its a strange thing!
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by Keags
Re: guitar backup
sorry my post got cut off!! I know brian fairly well and allot of the musicains around here seem to think im good enough but seem to lack a bit of confidednce. I tend to try and do something different but It never seems to sound like what im trying to achieve! I guess its just pracice and maybe find a few to star a band and learn together. Cheers to all advice though it seems a great community!
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by Keags
Re: guitar backup
I've been playing about 5 years now, using drop D (started out DADGAD and switched), and I would echo Rob's advice above, as it is pretty much what I did. Doyle's DVD is excellent, there is a ton to learn there. There are easier and more gentle styles than Doyle's, so just make sure you look at all the styles that are around and don't be locked in on just one. And Llig is right, learn the tunes--make sure the melody is in your head, and learn some leads, because they are a lot of fun too.
# Posted on June 1st 2008 by ayedbl
Re: guitar backup
Been in that position, so I'm rooting for you to find some pickin' pals. In case you don't find anyone immediately,
work with CD's as Eliot reccomends. That how I learned and I'm still learning through them.
Best of luck to you--hang in there.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by hauke
Re: guitar backup
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1268290752845796759&q=&hl=en
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: guitar backup
Thanks for that great video Wolfbird! I am building a 00 size at the moment.... slow as molasses but hope to have it ready for the trek to the Catskills Week. This is #5. It's addictive for sure. It was fun seeing how Sam irwin bends sides... never saw the soaked before, we spray them and keep spraying them. Maybe because he has a mold though,,,, different. And O'Dowd's comparison of the first guitar recordings to piano accompaniment.
The one issue is ... I forget who it was saying guitar players get influenced by jazz, pop, other music... yes maybe, but the main influence for this music I feel should be more the tunes themselves and what they do than other types of music. Unless a big super group that wants that hard driving sound, then I suppose that's what he meant and it works for them.
# Posted on June 2nd 2008 by irisnevins