Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I was just wondering if anyone knew of any reason some trad recordings might be tuned really high? I'm thinking of two in particular: Sean Keane 50 fiddle solo's recording of Drowsy Maggie, and Frankie Gavin's Drowsy Maggie. Both are really really high. Gavin's is nearly a half-step high.
Is the recording sped up to make them sound faster? Is there any reason someone would want to actually tune their instruments high? Gavin's recording is backed by bouzouki and Keane's is guitar. I've noticed this on a few other recordings as well. Any thoughts?
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Lazyhound, no fair making me spit coffee on the computer.
It's possible now to speed up recordings without changing pitch, and both of those fiddlers can play really fast without mechanical aid. I think it's fair to rule that out.
Aaron, what is "A", anyway? We quite often agree nowadays on A as being 440hz, but that's not always been the case. One might equally ask why Drowsy Maggie might necessarily start on E. It does, often, and it's handy thus, as we can play it together at sessions without too much transposing work (that is, assuming someone wanted to play that tune). But it's not written in stone. Neither are the ornaments. Some instruments have practical considerations what they need to be tuned pretty close around A 440. but fiddles have few limits there. Why not tune sharp or flat for different tonal effects?
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
There are a lot of recordings that were done in Eb. Wind players often have an Eb instrument specifically for it. Playing in Eb gives the music a certain energy and edge, and I think that's why a lot of people record up there. I've sessioned in Eb a couple of times, and it truly feels different. It's fun!
In the case of John Carty's "I Will If I Can" album, he told me that they recorded it up because he felt that the G string on the banjo sounded too "floppy" at concert pitch, and he and Alec thought the blend was better at the higher tone.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
You need The Amazing Slow-Downer. I gave up trying to match up, so I just convert these off pitch recordings straight away. It could just be an engineering thing or maybe even an on purpose way to be unique.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
- They like the sound
- They don't want others to be able to join in with them (the reasons for which are a whole new discussion full of vigor and vitriol)
Now, I'm just speculating here, but Mr. O'Leary's box is mighty 'soggy' on the tuning, so I wager Mr. Doyle had to crank his fiddle into all sorts of interesting knots. They are wonderfully in tune with themselves, but try to play along with them and you'll hurt yourself.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Back in the days of Reel to Reel tape recorders, the tunes recorded from the Radio Programs were recorded so many times on to other people's recorders, that sometimes by the time I got them on to my tape recorder, I would have to try and learn them at least a semi tone higher and then convert them to the original key.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
When I first started learning the guitar, (on my own, from books)I used to tune to a set of pitch pipes. I could never find any of the chords to recorded songs that I tried to play along to (this was long before I got into ITM).
Finally (and it took a long while) I played with somebody else, found that my pitch pipes were nearly a semitone high, and suddenly everything made sense!
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Eb is regarded as elitist, it stops certain fixed pitch instruments from joining in. For fiddles it can put extra tension on the instrument that it wasn't made to handle. It is a matter of taste but I think it is rude to go to a festival with "only" an instrument that is a semi-tone sharper than everyone else's.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
tomw, different orchestras DO tune a little bit differently and that is what gives them their distinctive sound...like the Berlin Philharmonic for example...
but they don't tune a whole step sharp...maybe from 440 to 442
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Good point, Fiddlebabe. Some years ago an orchestra I was in at the time performed one of the Mahler symphonies where the principal violinist is required to play a solo on a fiddle that's tuned a semi-tone sharp. There was no way our man was going to use any of his own old and valuable instruments to satisfy this bit of hare-brained orchestration, so he got his wife (a teacher) to borrow a cheap schools fiddle from the LEA music department specifically for this solo. It was strung with solid steel strings and managed to do the job at the concert when tuned up to A466 without collapsing.
If a fiddle player has a real need to have a fiddle tuned up to A466 permanently then perhaps the answer is to look for strings designed for the job - but it would wise to consult a luthier first to ensure that the instrument can take it.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I am a Windows user. I have been using Audacity to re-tune some tracks and export them out as new MP3s. Then I can play them slowed down in Windows Media Player. This is a pretty workable scheme to me.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Sunnybear - I know that it's only a tiny bit, and nothing like a whole or even a half step. But thanks for confirming that I wasn't just spewing BS!
I've got a session to go to, lucky me, I'm outta here. . .
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
As far as I know, most retuning overall is done for tonal factors, not for some kind of perceived elitism: simply put, fiddles sound better when they're not in concert pitch. Some people might be inclined to disagree, but I've never heard an instrument better in D than it was in Eb or C# or C or Bb...
Paddy Cronin also played a host of recordings in Eb as well. Seems he liked it chipper and powerful.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I have a feeling that Eflat was a key that many pop songs were recorded in 30-40yrs ago. Not sure if that is still the case but there must have been some idea that it was pleasing to the ear.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Surely not, de Selby! I thought the real reason was that certain recordings are programmed to release a substance that simultaneously affects the aural receptors in the brain, making people perceive the sound to be 'brighter', and makes the air more viscous, thus rendering all other sounds a semitone flatter than they would otherwise be.
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
"different orchestras DO tune a little bit differently and that is what gives them their distinctive sound..." (Sunnybear)
There is also a pervading tendency worldwide for symphony orchestras to play louder - modern composers, audiences and the media demand it (ever noticed how unnaturally loud music sounds in the cinema?). Consequently brass and woodwind (which control the loud dynamics) are being subtly redesigned to be louder. Upping the pitch a couple of Hertz helps, as does enlarging the bore. Pity the poor sods who have to sit in front of the heavy brass in a big symphony orchestra!
This preemptive action by the heavy brass of course forces the strings to raise their tuning - although a couple of Hertz is admittedly no big deal - and to take other measures to make their instruments louder. It is no accident that string manufacturers often mention how powerful their latest offering is.
A few months ago I was invited to join the cello section of a 100-piece symphony orchestra in Bristol. I politely declined. An 18th century size symphony or chamber orchestra is quite loud enough for me
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Distinctive sound of orchestras ... I don't think it is entirely a matter of pitch / dynamics - those are different issues. What matters is that the Berlin Philharmonic, Vienna Philharmonic, and a few others, have the cream of the world's best classical musicians, play extremely fine instruments, and - crucially - have the world's best conductors in control. With resources like those orchestras those conductors will be able to get exactly the sound they want, but they are also wise enough to let individuality come through.
Incidentally, with orchestras like that, being auditioned (after queuing twice round the block) - and then being rejected - won't look all that bad on your CV
Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I was just wondering if anyone knew of any reason some trad recordings might be tuned really high? I'm thinking of two in particular: Sean Keane 50 fiddle solo's recording of Drowsy Maggie, and Frankie Gavin's Drowsy Maggie. Both are really really high. Gavin's is nearly a half-step high.
Is the recording sped up to make them sound faster? Is there any reason someone would want to actually tune their instruments high? Gavin's recording is backed by bouzouki and Keane's is guitar. I've noticed this on a few other recordings as well. Any thoughts?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by aaronashton
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
It's so as to squeeze them onto the wax cylinders.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Lazyhound, no fair making me spit coffee on the computer.
It's possible now to speed up recordings without changing pitch, and both of those fiddlers can play really fast without mechanical aid. I think it's fair to rule that out.
Aaron, what is "A", anyway? We quite often agree nowadays on A as being 440hz, but that's not always been the case. One might equally ask why Drowsy Maggie might necessarily start on E. It does, often, and it's handy thus, as we can play it together at sessions without too much transposing work (that is, assuming someone wanted to play that tune). But it's not written in stone. Neither are the ornaments. Some instruments have practical considerations what they need to be tuned pretty close around A 440. but fiddles have few limits there. Why not tune sharp or flat for different tonal effects?
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
There are a lot of recordings that were done in Eb. Wind players often have an Eb instrument specifically for it. Playing in Eb gives the music a certain energy and edge, and I think that's why a lot of people record up there. I've sessioned in Eb a couple of times, and it truly feels different. It's fun!
In the case of John Carty's "I Will If I Can" album, he told me that they recorded it up because he felt that the G string on the banjo sounded too "floppy" at concert pitch, and he and Alec thought the blend was better at the higher tone.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
You need The Amazing Slow-Downer. I gave up trying to match up, so I just convert these off pitch recordings straight away. It could just be an engineering thing or maybe even an on purpose way to be unique.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by windybaer
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
spite.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by drone
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
- They like the sound
- They don't want others to be able to join in with them (the reasons for which are a whole new discussion full of vigor and vitriol)
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1247
Now, I'm just speculating here, but Mr. O'Leary's box is mighty 'soggy' on the tuning, so I wager Mr. Doyle had to crank his fiddle into all sorts of interesting knots. They are wonderfully in tune with themselves, but try to play along with them and you'll hurt yourself.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Bands like Dervish play up a semitone. Its a common practice - they like the sound - some say that instruments carry better that bit higher.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bodatcha
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Back in the days of Reel to Reel tape recorders, the tunes recorded from the Radio Programs were recorded so many times on to other people's recorders, that sometimes by the time I got them on to my tape recorder, I would have to try and learn them at least a semi tone higher and then convert them to the original key.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I've heard that some Symphony Orchestras tune a bit sharp. I believe that it's supposed to make them sound "brighter".
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by tomw
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
When I first started learning the guitar, (on my own, from books)I used to tune to a set of pitch pipes. I could never find any of the chords to recorded songs that I tried to play along to (this was long before I got into ITM).
Finally (and it took a long while) I played with somebody else, found that my pitch pipes were nearly a semitone high, and suddenly everything made sense!
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bodatcha
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Eb is regarded as elitist, it stops certain fixed pitch instruments from joining in. For fiddles it can put extra tension on the instrument that it wasn't made to handle. It is a matter of taste but I think it is rude to go to a festival with "only" an instrument that is a semi-tone sharper than everyone else's.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Fiddlebabe
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Audacity is better than the Amazing Slow Downer. More versatile, too.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Aiki
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
tomw, different orchestras DO tune a little bit differently and that is what gives them their distinctive sound...like the Berlin Philharmonic for example...
but they don't tune a whole step sharp...maybe from 440 to 442
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Good point, Fiddlebabe. Some years ago an orchestra I was in at the time performed one of the Mahler symphonies where the principal violinist is required to play a solo on a fiddle that's tuned a semi-tone sharp. There was no way our man was going to use any of his own old and valuable instruments to satisfy this bit of hare-brained orchestration, so he got his wife (a teacher) to borrow a cheap schools fiddle from the LEA music department specifically for this solo. It was strung with solid steel strings and managed to do the job at the concert when tuned up to A466 without collapsing.
If a fiddle player has a real need to have a fiddle tuned up to A466 permanently then perhaps the answer is to look for strings designed for the job - but it would wise to consult a luthier first to ensure that the instrument can take it.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I am a Windows user. I have been using Audacity to re-tune some tracks and export them out as new MP3s. Then I can play them slowed down in Windows Media Player. This is a pretty workable scheme to me.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Sunnybear - I know that it's only a tiny bit, and nothing like a whole or even a half step. But thanks for confirming that I wasn't just spewing BS!
I've got a session to go to, lucky me, I'm outta here. . .
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by tomw
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
As far as I know, most retuning overall is done for tonal factors, not for some kind of perceived elitism: simply put, fiddles sound better when they're not in concert pitch. Some people might be inclined to disagree, but I've never heard an instrument better in D than it was in Eb or C# or C or Bb...
Paddy Cronin also played a host of recordings in Eb as well. Seems he liked it chipper and powerful.
--DtM
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I have a feeling that Eflat was a key that many pop songs were recorded in 30-40yrs ago. Not sure if that is still the case but there must have been some idea that it was pleasing to the ear.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Donough
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
They do it to be in tune with the bodhran.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I thought it must be the spoons, but yeah, has to be the drummer.
Spot on.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Rook
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Surely not, de Selby! I thought the real reason was that certain recordings are programmed to release a substance that simultaneously affects the aural receptors in the brain, making people perceive the sound to be 'brighter', and makes the air more viscous, thus rendering all other sounds a semitone flatter than they would otherwise be.
If you think about it, it makes sense ...
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
I bet you're the very man to prove it, too.
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
"different orchestras DO tune a little bit differently and that is what gives them their distinctive sound..." (Sunnybear)
There is also a pervading tendency worldwide for symphony orchestras to play louder - modern composers, audiences and the media demand it (ever noticed how unnaturally loud music sounds in the cinema?). Consequently brass and woodwind (which control the loud dynamics) are being subtly redesigned to be louder. Upping the pitch a couple of Hertz helps, as does enlarging the bore. Pity the poor sods who have to sit in front of the heavy brass in a big symphony orchestra!
This preemptive action by the heavy brass of course forces the strings to raise their tuning - although a couple of Hertz is admittedly no big deal - and to take other measures to make their instruments louder. It is no accident that string manufacturers often mention how powerful their latest offering is.
A few months ago I was invited to join the cello section of a 100-piece symphony orchestra in Bristol. I politely declined. An 18th century size symphony or chamber orchestra is quite loud enough for me
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Any reason certain recordings might be tuned high?
Distinctive sound of orchestras ... I don't think it is entirely a matter of pitch / dynamics - those are different issues. What matters is that the Berlin Philharmonic, Vienna Philharmonic, and a few others, have the cream of the world's best classical musicians, play extremely fine instruments, and - crucially - have the world's best conductors in control. With resources like those orchestras those conductors will be able to get exactly the sound they want, but they are also wise enough to let individuality come through.
Incidentally, with orchestras like that, being auditioned (after queuing twice round the block) - and then being rejected - won't look all that bad on your CV
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by lazyhound