I notice most fiddlers rosin their bow at least once before playing and often a few times during a long session.
I've a problem in that any time I rosin my bow it worsens my tone. I don't understand why. It makes the sound more grainy. The sound usually improves after I play for a good while i.e. after the rosin has worn off.
I don't put a huge amount of rosin on, so what's going on, am I not using enough rosin, should I only rosin the bow every once in a while or is the rosin I'm using (Kaplan Premium Rosin) not very good?
I think you are correct in not using too much rosin..it can deteriorate your tone
I like Bernardel, but there are so many good types...Jade is softer...Milant Deroux can be a little harder
stick with what you know though is what I say and work on your tone
perhaps many fiddlers rosin so much because they do not clean their strings, and as the bow moves across the string, it causes friction which causes heat which causes the rosin to glaze over on the string and build up, therefore they have to aaply more rosin to the slick string surface they have created in order for the hair of the bow to grasp the string
I'm quite lazy when it comes to cleaning the strings, I wait until I can't stand it, and I don't rosin a whole bunch at all. I feel a bunch on the strings AND on the bow creates the worst problem for me. Either or is plenty.
...but don't do what I do, you should probably clean your strings every time.
It sounds like either too much rosin or too much bow pressure, or both.
That grainy sound is the bow hair pulling the string too far before releasing it, which prevents the string from vibrating freely. Usually that's caused by too much bow pressure, although I guess it could happen with normal bow pressure if you have lots of sticky rosin on the hair.
Unless you're using so much rosin that clouds of rosin dust form when you play, I'd recommend trying a lighter hand on the bow and see if that helps.
If I can start my answer with the most strongest of caveats: This is my experience. I'm not saying I am right, et-cetera et-cetera. (just covering my back there)
Lay the rosin on. Lay it on thick. Plaster your bow and strings with the stuff. That grainy sound is the sound you're after. When the strings hiss with it, when the bow bites when you change direction. When a flick equals that crunch.
You can never have too much rosin because the excess flies away in a cloud anyway. My advice is to lay it on and if you think you have too much, lay some more on.
If I can start my answer with the most strongest of caveats: This is my experience. I'm not saying I am right, et-cetera et-cetera. (just covering my back there)
- with apologies (and thanks) to Michael.
If I see rosin on the strings (perhaps I didn't clean it off from the last time) I think to myself "do I need to put any on my bow?" And I generally don't, or if I do, just one or two light swipes is sufficient.
If I have already cleaned the strings, start playing and see rosin on the strings, again I wonder if it necessary to apply any more.
Now if you think you're reading conflicting advice from llig and me, you certainly are; but don't forget that we are both doing the same thing – each of us is letting his ear and the feel of the bow on the string be his guide. It's just that we have different agenda.
A couple of further points. If you have a valuable instrument or a decent wood bow it's not a good idea to let rosin build up on the varnish of either. Rosin is acidic stuff and in time will attack the varnish and ultimately the wood underneath (I believe the varnish on the bow is a little thinner, and may be of a different type). And in hot weather I tend to use hard rosin, and in cold weather the softer stuff, but I'm not paranoid about it.
The sound I'm getting isn't what you are talking about Gill. It's not the nice crunchy Tommy Peoples sound, that's all to do with bow pressure I presume.
What I'm talking about is just a horrible screechy sound! I don't want to try and get a sweet classical sound, but sometimes when I pick up the fiddle it comes out just as I want it but other times, usually when I've just put rosin on, this horrible sound comes out.
Now my bowing technique is far from perfect so that's probably something to do with it but it really worsens when I apply the rosin so I'm thinking that maybe I should lay off the rosin as others are saying.
So it's a screech more than a gutsy bow pressure scratch. Any more ideas on what's causing it? It really only happens once I've applied rosin.
Firstly, I'd recommend a few personal lessons in bowing technique from a good teacher (Suzuki-trained teachers are amongst those who place emphasis on good tone production). See Todd Ehle's teaching vidoes on YouTube, for useful tips.
Clean rosin off your strings with an alcohol wipe (don't let it anywhere near the fiddle varnish). You can also do the same with the bow hairs - but tighten them first to keep them away from the stick (you certainly don't want alcohol on the bow stick either). You could wrap some protective aluminum foil round the stick to protect it. If the hairs are really saturated with glassified rosin then re-hairing would be better - it's not particularly expensive.
I clean my strings off on my pants - it's easy, just turn the fiddle upside down and give a couple good back and forth wipes on one pant leg or the other. I tend not to use a lot of rosin, because then my pants start looking funny.
Some players let the residue build up on their fiddles
cos it gives them street cred. At least that's what I'm thinking;
I don't think there's an acoustical reason. I have to admit, I'm
letting it build up. I'm curious how long it takes for that hard core
fashion statement. It will take me a century - at this rate.
Llig might be winding us up, but I know an awesome downunder
fiddler who does this -- it's not the secret to his success
though.
What do you need a bow for, you can play by sliding the fiddle across your pants
If you aren't using a lot of rosin then rosin isn't your problem. I've used the kind of rosin you're using, it's good stuff.
How old are the strings you are using? What kind are they? Have you been sounding like you want and then this problem came along, or have you always had this problem?
mhuppert, I've hear old-time/bluegrass fiddlers say that they let the rosin build up on the fiddle on purpose, for the sound that it gives.
I'm sure that letting rosin build up on the belly of the fiddle changes the sound, but I doubt that it would be a change I'd want myself. Besides, the rosin bonds to the varnish over time and can't be removed, which means a lot of damage to the instrument. Keep that in mind if you're doing this to an expensive instrument.
On a recent fiddle lesson, my sound wasn't what it usually was, and I thought it was maybe too much rosin on the strings. I cleaned them and it still didn't make a big difference. My teacher took a piece of cheesecloth between his thumb and forefinger and wiped down the hairs of my bow. When he handed it back to me, I was back to the sound I was used to and looking for.
I like doing airs, so I go for a sweeter sound and less rosin is better for me. But that's just me. In my OT days, the scratchy sound was fine and it wouldn't have bothered me.
I don't use much rosin, and I clean it off the strings and fiddle belly once every day or two. I wipe it off the bow hair less often--maybe twice a month or so. But I also rehair my bows about twice a year.
Seems to me when our relative humidity goes way down (sometimes as low as 10%), the hair wants a bit more rosin than usual.
But my main fiddle comes with a built in woody tone, not glossy smooth to begin with.
I think I notice more bow noise right after rosining--a touch more chiff. This goes away in the course of 10 or 15 minutes of playing.
FWIW, I currently use Pirastro Goldflex rosin. I've also liked Millant Deroux, but it isn't grippy enough for my taste at low humidities.
Nah -play heaps more that that - but you see, cause I never clean the fiddle, there is always a nice lot of rosin dust sitting under the strings if I get really deserate!
I can see a business opportunity for an inventive luthier to mix up a varnish that looks like it's been impregnated with rosin, for application to the fingerboard-bridge area of the fiddle's table when he's varnishing it. Instant session-cred. Of course, you'd wipe off the real rosin dust frequently.
I used to do that thing of not clean the fiddle 'cuase I thought it had more cred (not lazy, lazy is a good excuse). I also used to not bite the ends off hairs I broke on my bow ... so that after a while the bow looked like it had a pony tail attached to each end. They'd swish about flamboyantly as I sawed away, though often they'd get caught under my fingers and trip up the tune ... a small price to pay for looking so cool.
I like the sound to come from the wood, and not from a thick layer of rosin. I once saw a workshop (classical, however...) in which the presenter undid the screw, let the frog fall from the stick, and dipped the bowhair into a pan of warm water and Citrus dishwashing liquid. He then ran a toothbrush the whole length of the bowhair, patted it all dry, put the frog back on, and all the accumulated rosin had washed away. (but I have not tried it myself...)
Yeah, I should really get into a habit of cleaning it regularly. I leave the thing out constantly, so I can grab it when I want to play it, so it's not as if I have a routine every day: take it out, play it, clean it, put it back. That doesn't happen, it's got to be there for when I'm ready, which is several times a day, some times longer than others.
Don't do that to Helicore A strings or Violino D strings
BTW, shamed by my own comments I propped my fiddle against
a tree in the front yard and gave it a good blast of the hose ...
yes, I know it's the wrong thing to do with the water restrictions
and all ...
Lazyhound, actually i'm doing it on steel strings like the Flexocore, which are much more resistent than the synthetic ones, and have very long life (4-6 months playing every day couple of hours). Earlier, i was playing with synthetic ones (dominant/obligato) and string life was quite short for other reasons, like the unwrapping of the winding, specially on the A. In my opinion, anyway, the effect of the rosin is worse on synthetic strings, as, becuase of the winding, it penetrates and sticks much more than on metallic strings, and is more difficult to remove. After these technical considerations, I have to face "the very problem" which is to play what i want to play in the way I want to play it (possibly to the end). And , for this task, the influence of the strings and the string cleaning..... is not so critical, unfortunately..
bb, you could care if someones fiddle has rosin on it purly from the fiddle's perspective. It does wreck a fiddle, in the long run. And if it's a good fiddle it should be outliving its owner.
If you use a plain gut A (as Heifetz and others did) you won't have any problems with the winding unwrapping ...
As an aside, I think the life of a decent plain gut A is comparable with that of most covered synthetics or covered gut for a busy player. Even if it's life is a little shorter, plain gut is significantly cheaper than than a good covered synthetic or gut (because it's made using simpler, more basic technology).
A plain gut string doesn't take much longer than any other type to settle in because most of the stretching has taken place during the manufacture, and what remains is largely due to the string settling in on the peg. Like most other strings, a gut string gives ample warning of when it needs to be replaced by a change in its response and tone; you don't have to wait for it to break.
Fiddle Rosin problem.
Fiddle Rosin problem.
I notice most fiddlers rosin their bow at least once before playing and often a few times during a long session.
I've a problem in that any time I rosin my bow it worsens my tone. I don't understand why. It makes the sound more grainy. The sound usually improves after I play for a good while i.e. after the rosin has worn off.
I don't put a huge amount of rosin on, so what's going on, am I not using enough rosin, should I only rosin the bow every once in a while or is the rosin I'm using (Kaplan Premium Rosin) not very good?
Appreciate your help in advance
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I think you are correct in not using too much rosin..it can deteriorate your tone
I like Bernardel, but there are so many good types...Jade is softer...Milant Deroux can be a little harder
stick with what you know though is what I say and work on your tone
perhaps many fiddlers rosin so much because they do not clean their strings, and as the bow moves across the string, it causes friction which causes heat which causes the rosin to glaze over on the string and build up, therefore they have to aaply more rosin to the slick string surface they have created in order for the hair of the bow to grasp the string
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I'm quite lazy when it comes to cleaning the strings, I wait until I can't stand it, and I don't rosin a whole bunch at all. I feel a bunch on the strings AND on the bow creates the worst problem for me. Either or is plenty.
...but don't do what I do, you should probably clean your strings every time.
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
It sounds like either too much rosin or too much bow pressure, or both.
That grainy sound is the bow hair pulling the string too far before releasing it, which prevents the string from vibrating freely. Usually that's caused by too much bow pressure, although I guess it could happen with normal bow pressure if you have lots of sticky rosin on the hair.
Unless you're using so much rosin that clouds of rosin dust form when you play, I'd recommend trying a lighter hand on the bow and see if that helps.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
If I can start my answer with the most strongest of caveats: This is my experience. I'm not saying I am right, et-cetera et-cetera. (just covering my back there)
Lay the rosin on. Lay it on thick. Plaster your bow and strings with the stuff. That grainy sound is the sound you're after. When the strings hiss with it, when the bow bites when you change direction. When a flick equals that crunch.
You can never have too much rosin because the excess flies away in a cloud anyway. My advice is to lay it on and if you think you have too much, lay some more on.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
If I can start my answer with the most strongest of caveats: This is my experience. I'm not saying I am right, et-cetera et-cetera. (just covering my back there)
- with apologies (and thanks) to Michael.
If I see rosin on the strings (perhaps I didn't clean it off from the last time) I think to myself "do I need to put any on my bow?" And I generally don't, or if I do, just one or two light swipes is sufficient.
If I have already cleaned the strings, start playing and see rosin on the strings, again I wonder if it necessary to apply any more.
Now if you think you're reading conflicting advice from llig and me, you certainly are; but don't forget that we are both doing the same thing – each of us is letting his ear and the feel of the bow on the string be his guide. It's just that we have different agenda.
A couple of further points. If you have a valuable instrument or a decent wood bow it's not a good idea to let rosin build up on the varnish of either. Rosin is acidic stuff and in time will attack the varnish and ultimately the wood underneath (I believe the varnish on the bow is a little thinner, and may be of a different type). And in hot weather I tend to use hard rosin, and in cold weather the softer stuff, but I'm not paranoid about it.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
And isn't conflicting advice something to be celebrated.
(by the way, though I am comfortable to let as much rosin build up on my bow as I possibly can, I clean the excess off the fiddle often.)
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Oui, vive la difference!
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
The sound I'm getting isn't what you are talking about Gill. It's not the nice crunchy Tommy Peoples sound, that's all to do with bow pressure I presume.
What I'm talking about is just a horrible screechy sound! I don't want to try and get a sweet classical sound, but sometimes when I pick up the fiddle it comes out just as I want it but other times, usually when I've just put rosin on, this horrible sound comes out.
Now my bowing technique is far from perfect so that's probably something to do with it but it really worsens when I apply the rosin so I'm thinking that maybe I should lay off the rosin as others are saying.
So it's a screech more than a gutsy bow pressure scratch. Any more ideas on what's causing it? It really only happens once I've applied rosin.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I think you've mostly answered your own question.
Firstly, I'd recommend a few personal lessons in bowing technique from a good teacher (Suzuki-trained teachers are amongst those who place emphasis on good tone production). See Todd Ehle's teaching vidoes on YouTube, for useful tips.
Clean rosin off your strings with an alcohol wipe (don't let it anywhere near the fiddle varnish). You can also do the same with the bow hairs - but tighten them first to keep them away from the stick (you certainly don't want alcohol on the bow stick either). You could wrap some protective aluminum foil round the stick to protect it. If the hairs are really saturated with glassified rosin then re-hairing would be better - it's not particularly expensive.
Then start over using far less rosin!
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I clean my strings off on my pants - it's easy, just turn the fiddle upside down and give a couple good back and forth wipes on one pant leg or the other. I tend not to use a lot of rosin, because then my pants start looking funny.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by airport
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Some players let the residue build up on their fiddles
cos it gives them street cred. At least that's what I'm thinking;
I don't think there's an acoustical reason. I have to admit, I'm
letting it build up. I'm curious how long it takes for that hard core
fashion statement. It will take me a century - at this rate.
Llig might be winding us up, but I know an awesome downunder
fiddler who does this -- it's not the secret to his success
though.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
What do you need a bow for, you can play by sliding the fiddle across your pants
If you aren't using a lot of rosin then rosin isn't your problem. I've used the kind of rosin you're using, it's good stuff.
How old are the strings you are using? What kind are they? Have you been sounding like you want and then this problem came along, or have you always had this problem?
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
mhuppert, I've hear old-time/bluegrass fiddlers say that they let the rosin build up on the fiddle on purpose, for the sound that it gives.
I'm sure that letting rosin build up on the belly of the fiddle changes the sound, but I doubt that it would be a change I'd want myself. Besides, the rosin bonds to the varnish over time and can't be removed, which means a lot of damage to the instrument. Keep that in mind if you're doing this to an expensive instrument.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
On a recent fiddle lesson, my sound wasn't what it usually was, and I thought it was maybe too much rosin on the strings. I cleaned them and it still didn't make a big difference. My teacher took a piece of cheesecloth between his thumb and forefinger and wiped down the hairs of my bow. When he handed it back to me, I was back to the sound I was used to and looking for.
I like doing airs, so I go for a sweeter sound and less rosin is better for me. But that's just me. In my OT days, the scratchy sound was fine and it wouldn't have bothered me.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by nofrets
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I don't use much rosin, and I clean it off the strings and fiddle belly once every day or two. I wipe it off the bow hair less often--maybe twice a month or so. But I also rehair my bows about twice a year.
Seems to me when our relative humidity goes way down (sometimes as low as 10%), the hair wants a bit more rosin than usual.
But my main fiddle comes with a built in woody tone, not glossy smooth to begin with.
I think I notice more bow noise right after rosining--a touch more chiff. This goes away in the course of 10 or 15 minutes of playing.
FWIW, I currently use Pirastro Goldflex rosin. I've also liked Millant Deroux, but it isn't grippy enough for my taste at low humidities.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Use the end of a cork from a bottle of wine to clean your strings. Clean strings make a world of difference.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by leoj
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I'm lazy too - I rosin maybe once a month and never clean my strings or my fiddle.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Once a month? Crikey, you must only be playing for about an hour a month.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I had a block of that Pirastro Goldflex rosin stuff once. Bloody brilliant. I lost it though, like I always do.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Nah -play heaps more that that - but you see, cause I never clean the fiddle, there is always a nice lot of rosin dust sitting under the strings if I get really deserate!
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I know that you are probably shuddering with the though llig - but I do love my fiddle....honest
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I can see a business opportunity for an inventive luthier to mix up a varnish that looks like it's been impregnated with rosin, for application to the fingerboard-bridge area of the fiddle's table when he's varnishing it. Instant session-cred. Of course, you'd wipe off the real rosin dust frequently.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Yes - exactly!
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I used to do that thing of not clean the fiddle 'cuase I thought it had more cred (not lazy, lazy is a good excuse). I also used to not bite the ends off hairs I broke on my bow ... so that after a while the bow looked like it had a pony tail attached to each end. They'd swish about flamboyantly as I sawed away, though often they'd get caught under my fingers and trip up the tune ... a small price to pay for looking so cool.
what a t w a t
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I use very fine steel wool to remove the rosin from the strings ( i use Pirastro flexocore). that gets my fiddle back to "her" true sound.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by fiddlemax
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I like the sound to come from the wood, and not from a thick layer of rosin. I once saw a workshop (classical, however...) in which the presenter undid the screw, let the frog fall from the stick, and dipped the bowhair into a pan of warm water and Citrus dishwashing liquid. He then ran a toothbrush the whole length of the bowhair, patted it all dry, put the frog back on, and all the accumulated rosin had washed away. (but I have not tried it myself...)
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Yeah, I should really get into a habit of cleaning it regularly. I leave the thing out constantly, so I can grab it when I want to play it, so it's not as if I have a routine every day: take it out, play it, clean it, put it back. That doesn't happen, it's got to be there for when I'm ready, which is several times a day, some times longer than others.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Fiddlemax, does your string cleaning regime affect the life of the strings? I'd worry about the effect of fine steel wool on thin windings.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Don't do that to Helicore A strings or Violino D strings
BTW, shamed by my own comments I propped my fiddle against
a tree in the front yard and gave it a good blast of the hose ...
yes, I know it's the wrong thing to do with the water restrictions
and all ...
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Street Cred? really? Why would anyone care anyway? That is so weird.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
So prove me wrong - clean your fiddle
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
I promise not to post anything more on this thread. Wow, my
fiddle looks really shiny now!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Why should anyone care if someones fiddle has rosin on it???
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Sounds like too much weight (pressure) on the strings. Try lightening your touch up and/or moving the bow a bit closer to the bridge.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by awildman
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Lazyhound, actually i'm doing it on steel strings like the Flexocore, which are much more resistent than the synthetic ones, and have very long life (4-6 months playing every day couple of hours). Earlier, i was playing with synthetic ones (dominant/obligato) and string life was quite short for other reasons, like the unwrapping of the winding, specially on the A. In my opinion, anyway, the effect of the rosin is worse on synthetic strings, as, becuase of the winding, it penetrates and sticks much more than on metallic strings, and is more difficult to remove. After these technical considerations, I have to face "the very problem" which is to play what i want to play in the way I want to play it (possibly to the end). And , for this task, the influence of the strings and the string cleaning..... is not so critical, unfortunately..
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by fiddlemax
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
bb, you could care if someones fiddle has rosin on it purly from the fiddle's perspective. It does wreck a fiddle, in the long run. And if it's a good fiddle it should be outliving its owner.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Too True llig - I will be better from now on...promise
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
If you use a plain gut A (as Heifetz and others did) you won't have any problems with the winding unwrapping ...
As an aside, I think the life of a decent plain gut A is comparable with that of most covered synthetics or covered gut for a busy player. Even if it's life is a little shorter, plain gut is significantly cheaper than than a good covered synthetic or gut (because it's made using simpler, more basic technology).
A plain gut string doesn't take much longer than any other type to settle in because most of the stretching has taken place during the manufacture, and what remains is largely due to the string settling in on the peg. Like most other strings, a gut string gives ample warning of when it needs to be replaced by a change in its response and tone; you don't have to wait for it to break.
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
At the moment I am using a pure gut A. the first time.I am surprised at how 'playable' it is , It is of course Pirastro Eudoxa.
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by jig
Re: Fiddle Rosin problem.
Eudoxas are wound gut, not "pure" gut
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by Sunnybear