Please note: I am asking about the guitars themselves, not the Gypsy Jazz style of playing or chord structures.
It's time I stimulate the economy by buying a new guitar. I'm wondering if the unique tonal qualities of Gypsy Jazz style guitars work well with ITM. I'm primarily a mandolin player, but I play a few songs and back tunes on guitar.
Does anyone ever see these guitars at sessions? Any prominent Trad players use them?
for those who don't know, Gypsy Jazz guitars usually have a straight cutaway at the top of the body and have either a smaller oval or larger D shaped soundhole.
It's strictly a matter of what you like personally. If It sounds good, plays well, projects, and feels good to you... go for it. That's how I look at it. I've never seen one at a session but that in itself wouldn't stop me from using one if it was my guitar of preference.
They are being produced at various price levels.
http://www.sagamusic.com/article.asp?ID=52
The great John Jorgenson seems to like this one. Medium price range for an acoustic. You can knock a few hundred of the list price.
As is the case with any instrument purchase you'd want to try as many in your price range as possible and the potential problem you'll run into is that Django/Gypsy style guitars aren't usually found at Guitar Center or Sam Ash. I posted the online links just to give you an idea of price ranges but you'll probably have to shop around a bit.
Whereas the instrument may indeed be suitable for trad, it is interesting to note that two notable musicians, Frank Kilkelly - who wrote a how to play trad guitar tutor, and John Whealan (who also plays trad) both play gypsy guitar in the Cafe Orchestra and to my knowledge haven't used it in their trad playing... I could be wrong. Maybe you could make contact with them?
I personally prefer a contrapunctal approach to trad accompaniment on guitar but if you are going to take the rhythmical approach then it'd be interesting to see how a Mark Kelly or Steve Cooney style would work... if that's possible...
Let us know how you get on anyhow and best of luck!
As a melody player I prefer that guitar accompanists use a quieter instrument regardless of their stylistic approach. I don't think something as loud as a Gypsy Jazz guitar, arch top, or jumbo dreadnought is appropriate for a small, tight ensemble - they're just too loud and distract from the melody playing.
I don't know that much about guitars, but Django play one with tree trunks instead of strings? And is there extra volume from this style of guitar because of the tailpice and movable bridge?
depending on how much cash you have, and your location, there's a few places you can go.
Maurice Dupont makes superb Selma/Maccaferri guitars, and his are used by many of the top professionals in France playing gypsy jazz, most notably Bireli Lagrene. His website is:
www.acoustic-guitars.com/
Also there's Robert Aylward, he's based in Scotland and makes amazing Selma/Maccaferri guitars, again, used by a lot of professionals. He also works a lot with trad instruments, and is regarded by many as the best person to see if you need a new neck for your tenor banjo. His website is:
They are two of the best makers, you can get cheaper, but they're never the 'real deal'. Remember the whole technique used to play those guitars is way different. For a start, they use much, much heavier picks. 5mm is common (standard Jim Dunlop used by trad people is approx. .73mm), using material like wood and even marble. Also they hit the strings differently; they play through the string and land on the next one, which gives a much different sound to standard flat picking on a martin, for example. A lot more down stroke picking. The string gauges are heavier too.
There's no doubt that the django style of guitar is amazing sounding - I love them too - but question how well suited to trad they are. The bottom rande on them isn't as suited to a martin, and they are hard work to play in comparison to a takamine, but the tone is much more interesting and very musical. In the right hands, they sound stunning.
There's a fella over this side from Newfoundland, Duane Andrews who's a really smoking Django style guitarist but you couldn't ask for a better man with a guitar in the session He plays a Selma knockoff as well. http://www.duaneandrews.ca/
I would disagree that they're necessarily a good thing for a big session either. If anything a big session group of 8-10 melody players that cooperate well with each other needs little or no accompaniment at all because they're on the same page. Less can be a whole lot more in those circumstances.
SOMETIMES a loud guitar can help a slightly wobbly group stay together, but only if the strongest players are both numerous enough and strong enough to pull the weaker ones along with them. Add a loud, wobbly guitar or too many wobbly melody players though and it becomes a shamb*ll*cks pretty quickly.
These guitars have a really bright treble sound, which might interfere with melody players. As melody players, though, you might get a kind of nice Manouche twist on the DeDannan type of banjo/fiddle unison lines.
CleverName - There are tonal diferrences with a Django style guitar from an OM or a Dread Django Style guitar. That's why I suggested to get out and play as many as you can in your price range. That may be tough because they are not common guitars... but they are out there.
As others have pointed out strings and picks have a lot to do with the tone as do materials, build quality... so on. However, the most important component of tone is YOU. Good tone mostly comes from the person playing the instrument. If you find a Gypsie style guitar and it really "speaks to you" then I wouldn't worry about volume diferrences from OM's and Dread's because you will learn to compensate for these types of things. Django would sound like Django on a Martin, Gibson, Stella, Sears Silvertone, Washburn... Tony McManus would sound like Tony McManus on a Martin, Gibson, Stella, Sears Silvertone, Washburn... you get the idea
You may like a Gypsie style guitar and then again you may not but either way trust your own judgement when it comes to choosing an instrument.
Thanks for all the input!
I should have added that Gypsy Jazz is my second favorite style of music yet I have only just begun to try to play it. I love the music and the sound of the guitars, but I didn't want to buy a guitar that would sound bad playing ITM, since I can't afford two nice guitars.
I already use the new D'Adarrio Gypsy Jazz strings and play with a 1.5mm pick (very thick by most standards, quite thin by Gypsy Jazz standards).
Guess I'll just have to look and around and play as many as I can find and see if I like them.
I have no intention of blending the styles, unless you think the world is ready for Tinker Jazz.
I built a copy of a Selmer oval-hole and it's the main guitar I play. It has a dry but cutting sound and it can be heard while playing melody in a small-ish session, but no lead guitar can rise above the musical morass in a large session with numerous bodhrans, banjos, and fiddles.
This makes me glad that my primary instrument is the fiddle!
Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Please note: I am asking about the guitars themselves, not the Gypsy Jazz style of playing or chord structures.
It's time I stimulate the economy by buying a new guitar. I'm wondering if the unique tonal qualities of Gypsy Jazz style guitars work well with ITM. I'm primarily a mandolin player, but I play a few songs and back tunes on guitar.
Does anyone ever see these guitars at sessions? Any prominent Trad players use them?
for those who don't know, Gypsy Jazz guitars usually have a straight cutaway at the top of the body and have either a smaller oval or larger D shaped soundhole.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by CleverName
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
It's strictly a matter of what you like personally. If It sounds good, plays well, projects, and feels good to you... go for it. That's how I look at it. I've never seen one at a session but that in itself wouldn't stop me from using one if it was my guitar of preference.
They are being produced at various price levels.
http://www.sagamusic.com/article.asp?ID=52
The great John Jorgenson seems to like this one. Medium price range for an acoustic. You can knock a few hundred of the list price.
A bunch more: http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/cats/45N.html
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Cool, I want one too....
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Shame
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
you might get information on this one from the acoustic guitar forum.Dick Miles
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by anon
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
As is the case with any instrument purchase you'd want to try as many in your price range as possible and the potential problem you'll run into is that Django/Gypsy style guitars aren't usually found at Guitar Center or Sam Ash. I posted the online links just to give you an idea of price ranges but you'll probably have to shop around a bit.
Good luck and keep us posted.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Whereas the instrument may indeed be suitable for trad, it is interesting to note that two notable musicians, Frank Kilkelly - who wrote a how to play trad guitar tutor, and John Whealan (who also plays trad) both play gypsy guitar in the Cafe Orchestra and to my knowledge haven't used it in their trad playing... I could be wrong. Maybe you could make contact with them?
I personally prefer a contrapunctal approach to trad accompaniment on guitar but if you are going to take the rhythmical approach then it'd be interesting to see how a Mark Kelly or Steve Cooney style would work... if that's possible...
Let us know how you get on anyhow and best of luck!
Martin.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by martin t
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
This side of the pond I know Hobgoblin do a reasonable range. I believe they have USA sales too.
http://www.hobgoblin.co.uk/local/acousticframeuk.htm
Sean
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by gone
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Doesn't that young man who accompanies Niamh Parsons these days play some sort of f-hole jazz guitar?
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
It look like Seamus Egan is playing some sort of Gypsy Jazz guitar in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD_3CnaeCoM
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by _Jack_
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
As a melody player I prefer that guitar accompanists use a quieter instrument regardless of their stylistic approach. I don't think something as loud as a Gypsy Jazz guitar, arch top, or jumbo dreadnought is appropriate for a small, tight ensemble - they're just too loud and distract from the melody playing.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Yeah, but for big sessions they are just great!
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Shame
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
I don't know that much about guitars, but Django play one with tree trunks instead of strings? And is there extra volume from this style of guitar because of the tailpice and movable bridge?
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Nah. Its to do with the tension of the top.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Shame
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD_3CnaeCoM
Classical guitar.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Shame
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
depending on how much cash you have, and your location, there's a few places you can go.
Maurice Dupont makes superb Selma/Maccaferri guitars, and his are used by many of the top professionals in France playing gypsy jazz, most notably Bireli Lagrene. His website is:
www.acoustic-guitars.com/
Also there's Robert Aylward, he's based in Scotland and makes amazing Selma/Maccaferri guitars, again, used by a lot of professionals. He also works a lot with trad instruments, and is regarded by many as the best person to see if you need a new neck for your tenor banjo. His website is:
http://www.rjaylwardguitars.co.uk/
They are two of the best makers, you can get cheaper, but they're never the 'real deal'. Remember the whole technique used to play those guitars is way different. For a start, they use much, much heavier picks. 5mm is common (standard Jim Dunlop used by trad people is approx. .73mm), using material like wood and even marble. Also they hit the strings differently; they play through the string and land on the next one, which gives a much different sound to standard flat picking on a martin, for example. A lot more down stroke picking. The string gauges are heavier too.
There's no doubt that the django style of guitar is amazing sounding - I love them too - but question how well suited to trad they are. The bottom rande on them isn't as suited to a martin, and they are hard work to play in comparison to a takamine, but the tone is much more interesting and very musical. In the right hands, they sound stunning.
Anyway, hope that helps!
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
There's a fella over this side from Newfoundland, Duane Andrews who's a really smoking Django style guitarist but you couldn't ask for a better man with a guitar in the session He plays a Selma knockoff as well.
http://www.duaneandrews.ca/
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
I would disagree that they're necessarily a good thing for a big session either. If anything a big session group of 8-10 melody players that cooperate well with each other needs little or no accompaniment at all because they're on the same page. Less can be a whole lot more in those circumstances.
SOMETIMES a loud guitar can help a slightly wobbly group stay together, but only if the strongest players are both numerous enough and strong enough to pull the weaker ones along with them. Add a loud, wobbly guitar or too many wobbly melody players though and it becomes a shamb*ll*cks pretty quickly.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
''I would disagree that they're necessarily a good thing for a big session either''
But of course. It all depends on the player! any loud instrument can wreck a session in the wrong hands.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
These guitars have a really bright treble sound, which might interfere with melody players. As melody players, though, you might get a kind of nice Manouche twist on the DeDannan type of banjo/fiddle unison lines.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by drone
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
CleverName - There are tonal diferrences with a Django style guitar from an OM or a Dread Django Style guitar. That's why I suggested to get out and play as many as you can in your price range. That may be tough because they are not common guitars... but they are out there.
As others have pointed out strings and picks have a lot to do with the tone as do materials, build quality... so on. However, the most important component of tone is YOU. Good tone mostly comes from the person playing the instrument. If you find a Gypsie style guitar and it really "speaks to you" then I wouldn't worry about volume diferrences from OM's and Dread's because you will learn to compensate for these types of things. Django would sound like Django on a Martin, Gibson, Stella, Sears Silvertone, Washburn... Tony McManus would sound like Tony McManus on a Martin, Gibson, Stella, Sears Silvertone, Washburn... you get the idea
You may like a Gypsie style guitar and then again you may not but either way trust your own judgement when it comes to choosing an instrument.
Happy Hunting!
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
Thanks for all the input!
I should have added that Gypsy Jazz is my second favorite style of music yet I have only just begun to try to play it. I love the music and the sound of the guitars, but I didn't want to buy a guitar that would sound bad playing ITM, since I can't afford two nice guitars.
I already use the new D'Adarrio Gypsy Jazz strings and play with a 1.5mm pick (very thick by most standards, quite thin by Gypsy Jazz standards).
Guess I'll just have to look and around and play as many as I can find and see if I like them.
I have no intention of blending the styles, unless you think the world is ready for Tinker Jazz.
thanks!
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by CleverName
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
the world is ready......bring it on.
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by Shame
Re: Gypsy Jazz Guitars for Trad
I built a copy of a Selmer oval-hole and it's the main guitar I play. It has a dry but cutting sound and it can be heard while playing melody in a small-ish session, but no lead guitar can rise above the musical morass in a large session with numerous bodhrans, banjos, and fiddles.
This makes me glad that my primary instrument is the fiddle!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Layers