Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
If you were in a session with no accompanist and someone turned up who was a good guitarist but an average fiddler (i.e. not always spot on with tuning and bad bowing technique causing a scratchy sound), which would you prefer they played? Guitar or fiddle?
This is specifically aimed at people who don't generally like accompaniment. Would you actually prefer a dodgy fiddler to a good guitarist?
Now I know some of you would probably say you'd rather they didn't play at all, but perhaps we can get beyond that this time!!!
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
i would prefer the good guitar. I like to play with good guitar accompaniment and I would encourage the person to play guitar. But if the person wanted to play the fiddle, I wouldn't mind. If there were a number of fiddles at the session (like three or four) I would encourage the person to play guitar because the accompaniment would really add to the session. But it would be up to the person really.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
it depends ...
What if the fella plays guitar for a living and is pretty renowned and pretty good. I'd have no problems with him playing the fiddle if he was after a change and a night off.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar - if I was thinking purely of my own musical needs. But then again (to re-roast that old chestnut) your answer to this question depends if you're thinking of that session as a performance for others or whether you're playing for the benefit of the participants.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
It all depends on what kind of 'average' you're talking about. If it's the *mode* or the *mean*, I might be inclined to (although wouldn't necessarily) tell them to stick to what they're good at. If it's the *median*, well, then that's another pot of honey - they'd be a half decent fiddler and I'd be more than happy to share tunes with them.
The session I was at last night was solid proof that chordal accompaniment - whether piano, guitar, bouzouki or Farfisa organ - is not *necessary* to make a good session. In fact, had a backer turned up at the wrong moment, it could easily have sent everything tumbling to the ground. So, had Mr/Mrs/Miss/Fr./Rev. guitarist turned up at that particular session, I would have preferred them to leave their guitar to sleep in its coffin and take out the fiddle. In another session, a guitar might have been just the ticket. But, unless they were a really *bad* fiddler, they should be actively encouraged to play a few tunes on the fiddle. It's about communicating, not holding forth.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Yeah, how bad a fiddle player? And also, how long have they been playing the fiddle. Let's say they are really bad, but have only just picked it up after years of succesful strumming? I'd say yeah, play the fiddle. But if they'd been scraping away for years and hit a brick wall with it years ago, though their guitar playing is splendid, I'd say play the guitar. But as Granma says, there are still situations when you'd prefer them to play the fiddle.
I tell you what though, there would be no doubting that if they were a really good fiddle player, but a poor guitar player, in a good strong session with no strummers, no one in their right mind would ask them to put the fiddle away and get the guitar out.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar. Not that I dislike average fiddle playing. Good guitar does add to a session, so long as they remember that they accompany, not lead. Too many guitar players come into the tradition from rock and solo singin/guitar accompaniment, thinking they are still stars. If they were able to get their mind round that in this music they accompany, it would be better for them, and the session.
BTW granama, don't forget to include standard error, and even coeeficient of error in any calculation.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
People have to learn!
Of course, we agree that a session isn't the best place for beginners but I'm sure you'll agree they are places where you can improve and develop your skills.
If this player's only instrument was the fiddle, I'm sure we wouldn't be overly concerned if he/she was just average as long as there was some gradual improvement and there was no undue disruption to the proceedings. We wouldn't ask "Can you not play something else instead?"
Of course, a musician will contribute more to a session by concentrating on his/her first or main instrument but don't individual players have some needs too?
Or should it be a case of
"Don't think of what the sesion can do for you but what you can do for the session?"
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
In everyones experience is your average fiddler "dodgy", not always spot on, have bad bowing technique, and causes a scratchy sound? Nobody can be always "spot on" but the other 3 comments dont hold true in my experience at sessions thank goodness.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I'd prefer to play with any folks who have a great passion for this music while maintaining a good sense of humor. If yer man can play both, there should be no reason you can't enjoy both aspects of his contributions. When it comes to questions like this, I always try and remember - "it isn't about me all the time."
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
As someone who is less keen on accompaniment than most, I'd lean towards the "average fiddler" myself. But only if it meant doing no harm. As llig pointed out, there's a wide range of skills that could be considered 'average' or 'good', and there's no one answer for everyone.
Then again, I'm pretty picky about backers. I've met plenty of "good" guitarists whose backing drove me straight up the wall.
If the original poster (who clearly uses a European keyboard) is the fiddler/guitarist in question, I'd probably suggest bringing both instruments to the session, playing the first half on the fiddle, then pulling out the guitar for the rest.
Of course, sometimes the session really needs a backer, and sometimes it's better without. A good musician should be able to make a reasonable judgment call as to what would be better.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I would choose both of them.
You are ruining the spirit of music by being picky about good guitarists and mediocre fiddle players. If you took that tone of attitude here in Donegal, you would probably be asked to leave. We see too many foreign players complaining about backing guitarists. Speak to someone like our local fiddler Dinny McLaughlin, who is one of the greatest in the world, and he will tell you that everyone should be able to participate and learn from one another. You do not pick someone to play with because they are better at playing an instrument than someone else. You pick someone to play with because they enjoy it, love to play it and learn, and love to have a great bit of craic with the rest of the group.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Ok to clarify this a bit I'll own up, I'm talking about myself. Most people are happy for me to play guitar with them and I even get asked to back some good players in concert from time to time. I can play tunes on guitar easily enough but I normally can't hear myself in a session if I do, unless it's quite a small session and no accordions are involved!
Lately I've been really enjoying playing fiddle but my bowing could be better as could my tone, ornamentation, rhythm and my pitching. I don't want to annoy people in a session and so I'm a bit wary of playing fiddle unless it's a big session where most people couldn't hear me.
I suppose the main thing I'm wondering is do good tune players get annoyed with and put off by not so good tune players as much as I get annoyed with bad backers!!
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Aha - now we get to the heart of the matter -
I'd bet most folks would be happy to play with you on whatever instrument and whatever tune you'd like to try. Frankly if somebody has the gall to say "put that fiddle away you're annoying me" or wrinkle their nose up when you want to have a few tunes - there is something wrong with them - not you. I'm not sure what sort of aggressive types you're used to playing with, but I think most folks would be willing to let you use your own best judgement when it comes to when and how often you play fiddle.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
i've never had anyone tell me not to play fiddle, but there have been occasions where I got the feeling people weren't appreciating it! Maybe I'm just paranoid cos I'm a bit insecure about my fiddle playing.
Anyway rarely have I seen anyone give out to someone about the way they play unless they were really atrocious. The good old Irish shunning technique seems to be the main way of letting someone know they aren't appreciated. i.e. don't talk to them or act friendly or welcoming in any way.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Follow-up comment
"Bad" guitar players are worse in my humble experience because more often than not, they don't know the music and are guessing as to where the tune is going next. That's is pretty tough to play through, however it is quite different than a novice melody player who knows the tune but doesn't quite have the speed/comfort yet.
Under those circumstances, I'd rather play with the novice than fight upstream against a guessing guitar player.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Dave - you know as well as anyone that is depends on the session Youre friendly enough with the lads - surely you'd be able to tell who would be annoyed??? Good luck with the fiddle, its a killer!
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I myself made the decision in the past couple of years to stop trying to become an outstanding accompanist, and start working on being a melody player.
Around where I play, there are plenty of accompanists, but you can never have too many melody players, and melody playing is fun. I still work on my guitar playing, but my main efforts are focused on learning new tunes (where I use the whistle because it is easier for me to learn tunes on the whistle), and trying to become an accordion player.
But I still do play a fair amount of guitar in sessions, because I only have a small collection of tunes that are 'session ready' on the melody instruments, as stated above, I don't want to detract from things by poor playing on tunes I haven't mastered.
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar, The fiddle is a tricky instrument for sure. Get together with like-minded friends and session there with your fiddle. Thank god there are people like you who actually consider the other musicians.
On the other hand join in play along, if its not welcome you will soon find out!
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I've been in the same boat as you. I play fiddle and guitar.
For a while we had 2 guitar players so i stopped taking mine and concentrated on playing fiddle. It's been great for my fiddle playing. I only use the guitar for performances now.
Our guitarist has now moved on... so I take my Octave Mandolin when I can. There are two of us who can play it so if the session requires some backing... we can pick that up.
Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
If you were in a session with no accompanist and someone turned up who was a good guitarist but an average fiddler (i.e. not always spot on with tuning and bad bowing technique causing a scratchy sound), which would you prefer they played? Guitar or fiddle?
This is specifically aimed at people who don't generally like accompaniment. Would you actually prefer a dodgy fiddler to a good guitarist?
Now I know some of you would probably say you'd rather they didn't play at all, but perhaps we can get beyond that this time!!!
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
i would prefer the good guitar. I like to play with good guitar accompaniment and I would encourage the person to play guitar. But if the person wanted to play the fiddle, I wouldn't mind. If there were a number of fiddles at the session (like three or four) I would encourage the person to play guitar because the accompaniment would really add to the session. But it would be up to the person really.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by John Culhane
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I think the music loses a bit without backing by bouzouki or guitar etc. so... guitar
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by camwebby
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
it depends ...
What if the fella plays guitar for a living and is pretty renowned and pretty good. I'd have no problems with him playing the fiddle if he was after a change and a night off.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by ...
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar - if I was thinking purely of my own musical needs. But then again (to re-roast that old chestnut) your answer to this question depends if you're thinking of that session as a performance for others or whether you're playing for the benefit of the participants.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
It all depends on what kind of 'average' you're talking about. If it's the *mode* or the *mean*, I might be inclined to (although wouldn't necessarily) tell them to stick to what they're good at. If it's the *median*, well, then that's another pot of honey - they'd be a half decent fiddler and I'd be more than happy to share tunes with them.
The session I was at last night was solid proof that chordal accompaniment - whether piano, guitar, bouzouki or Farfisa organ - is not *necessary* to make a good session. In fact, had a backer turned up at the wrong moment, it could easily have sent everything tumbling to the ground. So, had Mr/Mrs/Miss/Fr./Rev. guitarist turned up at that particular session, I would have preferred them to leave their guitar to sleep in its coffin and take out the fiddle. In another session, a guitar might have been just the ticket. But, unless they were a really *bad* fiddler, they should be actively encouraged to play a few tunes on the fiddle. It's about communicating, not holding forth.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Yeah, how bad a fiddle player? And also, how long have they been playing the fiddle. Let's say they are really bad, but have only just picked it up after years of succesful strumming? I'd say yeah, play the fiddle. But if they'd been scraping away for years and hit a brick wall with it years ago, though their guitar playing is splendid, I'd say play the guitar. But as Granma says, there are still situations when you'd prefer them to play the fiddle.
I tell you what though, there would be no doubting that if they were a really good fiddle player, but a poor guitar player, in a good strong session with no strummers, no one in their right mind would ask them to put the fiddle away and get the guitar out.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by ...
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar all the way.......
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by bb
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar. Not that I dislike average fiddle playing. Good guitar does add to a session, so long as they remember that they accompany, not lead. Too many guitar players come into the tradition from rock and solo singin/guitar accompaniment, thinking they are still stars. If they were able to get their mind round that in this music they accompany, it would be better for them, and the session.
BTW granama, don't forget to include standard error, and even coeeficient of error in any calculation.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
People have to learn!
Of course, we agree that a session isn't the best place for beginners but I'm sure you'll agree they are places where you can improve and develop your skills.
If this player's only instrument was the fiddle, I'm sure we wouldn't be overly concerned if he/she was just average as long as there was some gradual improvement and there was no undue disruption to the proceedings. We wouldn't ask "Can you not play something else instead?"
See a previous thread along similar lines...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10647/comments
Of course, a musician will contribute more to a session by concentrating on his/her first or main instrument but don't individual players have some needs too?
Or should it be a case of
"Don't think of what the sesion can do for you but what you can do for the session?"
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Johnny Jay
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
In everyones experience is your average fiddler "dodgy", not always spot on, have bad bowing technique, and causes a scratchy sound? Nobody can be always "spot on" but the other 3 comments dont hold true in my experience at sessions thank goodness.
Rob
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by mellow_bellows
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I want to clarify that I do see dodgy fiddlers with bad scratchy bowing, but defenitely a minority.
Rob
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by mellow_bellows
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Definately guitar then.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I'd prefer to play with any folks who have a great passion for this music while maintaining a good sense of humor. If yer man can play both, there should be no reason you can't enjoy both aspects of his contributions. When it comes to questions like this, I always try and remember - "it isn't about me all the time."
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
As someone who is less keen on accompaniment than most, I'd lean towards the "average fiddler" myself. But only if it meant doing no harm. As llig pointed out, there's a wide range of skills that could be considered 'average' or 'good', and there's no one answer for everyone.
Then again, I'm pretty picky about backers. I've met plenty of "good" guitarists whose backing drove me straight up the wall.
If the original poster (who clearly uses a European keyboard) is the fiddler/guitarist in question, I'd probably suggest bringing both instruments to the session, playing the first half on the fiddle, then pulling out the guitar for the rest.
Of course, sometimes the session really needs a backer, and sometimes it's better without. A good musician should be able to make a reasonable judgment call as to what would be better.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
how about a guitarist good enough to play the tunes rather than just play backing?
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I would choose both of them.
You are ruining the spirit of music by being picky about good guitarists and mediocre fiddle players. If you took that tone of attitude here in Donegal, you would probably be asked to leave. We see too many foreign players complaining about backing guitarists. Speak to someone like our local fiddler Dinny McLaughlin, who is one of the greatest in the world, and he will tell you that everyone should be able to participate and learn from one another. You do not pick someone to play with because they are better at playing an instrument than someone else. You pick someone to play with because they enjoy it, love to play it and learn, and love to have a great bit of craic with the rest of the group.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Stíofán
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Ok to clarify this a bit I'll own up, I'm talking about myself. Most people are happy for me to play guitar with them and I even get asked to back some good players in concert from time to time. I can play tunes on guitar easily enough but I normally can't hear myself in a session if I do, unless it's quite a small session and no accordions are involved!
Lately I've been really enjoying playing fiddle but my bowing could be better as could my tone, ornamentation, rhythm and my pitching. I don't want to annoy people in a session and so I'm a bit wary of playing fiddle unless it's a big session where most people couldn't hear me.
I suppose the main thing I'm wondering is do good tune players get annoyed with and put off by not so good tune players as much as I get annoyed with bad backers!!
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Aha - now we get to the heart of the matter -
I'd bet most folks would be happy to play with you on whatever instrument and whatever tune you'd like to try. Frankly if somebody has the gall to say "put that fiddle away you're annoying me" or wrinkle their nose up when you want to have a few tunes - there is something wrong with them - not you. I'm not sure what sort of aggressive types you're used to playing with, but I think most folks would be willing to let you use your own best judgement when it comes to when and how often you play fiddle.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
i've never had anyone tell me not to play fiddle, but there have been occasions where I got the feeling people weren't appreciating it! Maybe I'm just paranoid cos I'm a bit insecure about my fiddle playing.
Anyway rarely have I seen anyone give out to someone about the way they play unless they were really atrocious. The good old Irish shunning technique seems to be the main way of letting someone know they aren't appreciated. i.e. don't talk to them or act friendly or welcoming in any way.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Follow-up comment
"Bad" guitar players are worse in my humble experience because more often than not, they don't know the music and are guessing as to where the tune is going next. That's is pretty tough to play through, however it is quite different than a novice melody player who knows the tune but doesn't quite have the speed/comfort yet.
Under those circumstances, I'd rather play with the novice than fight upstream against a guessing guitar player.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
The honest answer in our session would be "play whatever you like but you are not getting paid".
From an aesthetic rather than commercial viewpoint, the guitar.
I understand what Johannes is saying, but we are talking two people here, so better to go with melody player and guitar.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Dave - you know as well as anyone that is depends on the session
Youre friendly enough with the lads - surely you'd be able to tell who would be annoyed??? 
Good luck with the fiddle, its a killer!
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by bb
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I myself made the decision in the past couple of years to stop trying to become an outstanding accompanist, and start working on being a melody player.
Around where I play, there are plenty of accompanists, but you can never have too many melody players, and melody playing is fun. I still work on my guitar playing, but my main efforts are focused on learning new tunes (where I use the whistle because it is easier for me to learn tunes on the whistle), and trying to become an accordion player.
But I still do play a fair amount of guitar in sessions, because I only have a small collection of tunes that are 'session ready' on the melody instruments, as stated above, I don't want to detract from things by poor playing on tunes I haven't mastered.
# Posted on May 19th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
Good guitar, The fiddle is a tricky instrument for sure. Get together with like-minded friends and session there with your fiddle. Thank god there are people like you who actually consider the other musicians.
On the other hand join in play along, if its not welcome you will soon find out!
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
I've been in the same boat as you. I play fiddle and guitar.
For a while we had 2 guitar players so i stopped taking mine and concentrated on playing fiddle. It's been great for my fiddle playing. I only use the guitar for performances now.
Our guitarist has now moved on... so I take my Octave Mandolin when I can. There are two of us who can play it so if the session requires some backing... we can pick that up.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by davydd
Re: Average Fiddle or Good Guitar? Which would you prefer?
As a fiddler, I can say without rserve----gimme the good
guitarist anyday !!!
# Posted on May 28th 2008 by hauke