'I think the point is that music does need a pub these days in order for it to thrive'
But does it? I have a deep dislike playing over the noise of the drinkers, the large majority of my playing takes places in my own house or the houses of friends, the pub has no role in it whatsoever.
Myers caused controversy on 8 February 2006 in his Irishman's Diary when he referred to Scottish people as obese and dependent on the welfare state.
There lies the ruin of Scotland - subsidies. Guaranteed transfers of capital from England have created a political culture of sloth which is now endemic and even personalised. Scottish people are the most obese in Europe, in which regard they resemble the wretched Scottish statelet. Only a minority of Scottish people work for a living - and most of those who have jobs are employed by the state: 577,300. In other words, they are employed by the English to manage themselves. The rest of the Scots are on the dole or pensions, living in state-owned housing estates, sending their children to state-run schools, where the most likely form of personal enterprise they will ever encounter is their local heroin-dealer.
On the 17 January 2007 he wrote a similar article about Scotland, drawing in the topical issue of the country's possible secession from the United Kingdom or gaining of some other form of independence.
Kilfarboy, your luck so.
My plan is to achieve what you have. My house is being built at the moment but when its finished I'm gonna try to get a regular session going there. (if herself will let me )
lately its in the pub or not at all.
My friends and myself have had great sessions at each others houses but all too infrequently. Hopefully when we have all stopped roaming and we settle down we might get something regular sorted. But until then its the local.
H'es probably right to an extent but there are far more other mediums for trad music now than there was 30 to 40 years ago. There are far more festivals and concerts and the like so people have a choice of where to go.
Then again pubs are and important part of the life and what not. And its a nice change to see something different written about the music instead of the usual p*ss take!
Interesting article... I know that pubs have been closing at an alarming rate, but I wonder if it can all be pointed at the smoking ban and drunk driving law... Ireland, as a whole, has gotten more affluent, and more technologically advanced. People have remodeled their houses into nicer estates, with satellite TV and broadband internet. In short, there are more things to do to be social than going down to the local for a pint.
I am sure that the smoking ban is responsible for at least part of it. I owned a fairly successful bar/nightclub that went out of business, partially due to a ban on smoking in the city. But part of the problem at the time was that the neighboring cities didn't ban smoking at the time, so people took their business elsewhere. Now the entire state has banned smoking in bars and restaurants, and while there was an initial shock to the industry as people were getting used to it, things have recovered, and the bar business seems to be thriving here now.
I do understand that pubs in Ireland (especially rural places) are a different thing than bars and restaurants in the US, but I am wondering if there are actually some instances of new pubs opening up that are counteracting some of the pub closures there...
That's a good point too Rev. I wonder how much globalization has to do with it as well, giant shopping malls and the great glory of the plastic consumer lifestyle, so on, etc. and gag.
I cringe when I think of the big shopping centers, 24 hour Tesco stores, and "plastic consumer lifestyle" in Ireland, too... but then again, it's nice to live with modern conveniences, and who are we to say "gosh, I wish your economy still sucked, so that your country could stay quaint for when we visit"...
Change is inevitable, so it's a wonder that we, as humans, seem so resistant to it...
Ah, there's the distinction. It's not the conveniences or the economy that's the problem, obviously, no one's happier for Ireland's affluence than Irish Americans, it's forsaking what's good in your own culture for what another says you should. American Idol and materialistic one-upmanship versus community, The Music, sessions, and dancing, for example. The loss of community and neighborhood is rampant everywhere in our virtual age.
Then again, it's just those *&@&# kids today! Same problem everywhere you go! Grumble mumble...
'People have remodeled their houses into nicer estates'!
Oh, dearie me, no, Reverend.
Mansion-building and all those Section 23 'tax incentive' dwellings are an astonishing blight on the land. The Shannonside village of Leitrim used to consist of just a scattering of houses and a few pubs alongside the main road. It now has a huge estate of, largely, empty four-, five- and six-bedroom houses built as investments. Keshcarrigan's another once lovely village in Leitrim which has been similarly blighted and there are other examples from all over the country.
He belonged to the revision school of Irish history, pointing out that the freedom fighting heroes of yore were not all saintly, church loving men, as was often portrayed.
Unfortunately as the slaughter went on in N.Ireland he became slightly unhinged (much like Conor Cruise O'Brien, another literary great,) and began to go well over the top with his stories.
Controversy sells however, and alas Myers tends to go over the top with all of his stories nowadays.
Myers sounds like he's got a few good points.
Drug sellers ought to be locked up. (is it still ok to say that these days, or is it politically incorrect, or downright illegal?)
Druggies are a waste of space.
Drugs are the enemy of culture, and have no place in it.
Well, the statement was drug sellers ought to be locked up.
Do you sell 'em then bb?
Too much drink is as bad as drugs. Don't drink.
Drugs are a money-making scam at the expense of the health, mental and physical, of the most vulnerable.
Give the drugs to the drug sellers - then lock em up.
Lock 'em up? How about tax 'em? It's a double profit bonanza for the state, stop wasting money prosecuting and storing drug criminals while making money licensing and taxing dealers. You can't really stop people from doing drugs, drinking, gambling, smoking, having ex, or whatever it is. That's life. [shrug]
How about tax em *and* lock em up. Oh, hey that's what happens here anyway - proceeds of crime legislation.
I wouldn't be trying to stop anyone - they'll stop when it kills them.
Who started those Opium Wars again? Oh yeah, that was the British Government wasn't it. The Chinese didn't like the British importing drugs into the country and objected - so Britain invaded the place! Charming. Is that still happening.
Funny how all that fighting is going on in Afganistan in and around the opium poppy crops. Plenty of soldiers getting killed, but hey, don't touch the poppies. Funny that, in a gruesome sort of way.
Drugs are for eejits. Ever noticed that?
Cannabis cannot be legalised for one reason. The large multi-national chemical firms, who play an increasing role in running the world, would lose a fortune. All those dangerous habit forming drugs, Valium, mogadone? and the rest, well no-one would take them if cannabis was available.
We couldn't possibly have the big drug companies losing money.
Much better to have dealers, inner city crime, not to mention funding for all terrorist/freedom fighting organisations.
The big companies don't sell ice, meth, ecstasy too do they?
Haven't heard it yet. Probably it's being mixed up by those dealers, inner-city crims...wouldn't be anyone else would it?
Big companies make more out of forcing you to buy petrol for your car every day at extortionate prices, rather than be able to import your Japanese liquid natural gas cars and use cng - for your car *and* your home heating. You know, Australia has some of the biggest natural gas reserves and we can't buy cng cars here. It's illegal to import them. Meanwhile, they export the gas for around 3c a litre.
That would be nice to heat your homes over there for that price wouldn't it. Sounds like you're all going to have to resort to selling drugs to get enough money to heat your homes the way things are going there.
Sounds like some fun!
Duijera Dubh, there's some massive holes in your logic, like 'they'll stop when it kills them' ....
erm, far more people die from taking the legal drugs than die from the illegal ones...the reason why alcohol and tobacco remain, not just legal but heavily promoted and advertised, is because of all the vested commercial interests which make a lot of money from the trade...and because a lot of that money goes to the Treasury and the folks who make the laws.
Why would Australians be so dumb as to import any gadgets that use fossil fuel when you've got all that free sunshine ? Leave the natural gas where it belongs, in the ground.
erm, far more people die from taking the legal drugs than die from the illegal ones...
So what's logical about that. Don't smoke. Very simple.
Some of us are working on the solar stuff, don't worry about that, sunshine.
Others want to export the gas to you guys and get you to pay a fortune for it, and keep us using it as well so they can charge us almost as much. Not as much as you, mind, so we have some reason not to complain, knowing that the poms - and whoever else - are paying more than us. Which you do.
That's what you hear wolfbird. It wouldn't be all b*sh*te would it?
But if they do anyway, that'll make the heroin prices go up, and make a lot of other people rich by selling it to eejits.
Well, the BBC would know then would it. Funny if there isn't a shortage of poppies but the prices still go up. Just like petrol.
They're a load of b*llsh*te aren't they?
Well, I don't care either way, DD. I hate cars, which kill a lot more people that heroin, and I hate heroin. I have an excellent life without either. And I eat oat bread, but I have to buy a few sacks of wheat for my birds. The price doubled since the last lot, 6 months ago.
Anyway, that's what you get for living on that overpopulated wet rock, where you can't grow enough of anything to feed the millions. It must be a real problem now that the Brits can't transport people anymore. They'll probably have to bring in capital punishment next. No doubt they'll start with the drug sellers. It's a funny old merry go round isn't it.
Yeah, too right, DD. I wish 70% of the population would go away and then these Islands would be grand. But where to put them all ? Send 'em all to Oz ? Tried that, and look at the result....
That's right. You get Rupert Murdochs to come back and buy your newspapers and tell you more b*llsh*te.
There's hope for you yet though. The Oz Labour Govt just announced today that they are increasing unskilled migration - unskilled that's right - up to 300,000 per year, due to the chronic labour shortage in this country. That will be the biggest intake we have had since WW2. It is an historic change, but if they don't do it, they won't be able to run the place soon enough. So there you go, off to Australia House now and fill out your forms. Millions of poms can now come here, but they probably won't because they think it is too far away and too hot, and too this or that. The Chinese don't mind the place a bit though, nor the Indians, and the rest of Asia.
Ah well, I guess you're all just gonna have to squash in their a bit more eh. Anyway, you'll be able to share umbrellas and get on swimmingly.
Naah, I've seen OZ culture on the tv, DD. Not my cup of tea. I like it wet and cold and windy And another reason, all my family and relatives went there thirty years ago. I know it's a big place, but I might bump into them somewhere. I like having a nice big planet between us.
But that is interesting about the 300,000. Are they required to do the work then, while you guys lay on the beach ?
Most Aussies don't like on beaches in mid summer wolf. You remember that saying about mad dogs and Englishmen - you got it. Yep, that's those lobster-red eejits lying out on the beaches at Bondi and Manly at midday in the middle of summer. All parading round on the streets p*ssed with pommy flags wrapped around them and santa claus hats on.
They're the ones we'll be getting to sign the forms no doubt.
By the way, if you're gettin your dose of Oz culture from British tv, you don't think that might be just a tad skewed do you?
It is not mandatory to go to the pub and vomit all the way down the street. It's the poms on the beach in summer who end up doing that.
Why do poms like to eat fish and chips on the beach?
That's very funny. What, are you trying to make yourselves feel better that you're got the fish on the beach eatin it, rather than you being in the water and the fish eatin' you.
The poms didn't give 'em much chance to do that did they?
The British Army in Sydney in the early days used to round up the local indigenous people and make them watch the hangings at Sydney Cove. This absolutely horrified and terrified the natives obviously. They had never seen this sort of barbarity before.
The British armed forces didn't ever take complaints too well did they.
Can you imagine what it must have been like as an indigenous person in Australia when the Brits arrived.
They arrived in the middle of summer (as usual!), over-dressed in tight-fitting funny blue outfits with long white budgie smugglers on. Sluggos, you know.
Even though it was very hot, the ones with the funny blue hats came ashore on the backs of the ones in the stripey dacks. Two men didn't do that sort of thing in Australian indigenous society, so it's a shock to start with.
Then they get ashore and within days the ones with the blue hats and ballet dacks are hoisting up the other ones on ropes around their necks and over the branches of trees so they're kicking around until they're dead. It is obvious now that this is not going to be a very friendly barbeque.
Then other ones have to take their shirts off, probably because it is very hot, and they want to go for a swim and what happens. The blue guys tie up the ones without the shirts to trees and flog all the skin off their backs. (I guess they don't like swimming.) *Then* they throw salt water on them.
That's a very strange way of doing things isn't it.
I think I'd just politely smile and walk away from this particular bunch of psychopaths.
Where were they from again?
Well, I guess the Brits did more of that sort of thing than anyone else, but look at the Spanish and Portuguese in S. America. And the Europeans in N. America. I read somewhere that the reason Japan tried to shut iself off from the rest of the world (until forced to open to trade by the USA) was because they got news of how the Europeans treated the Americas, way back.
The nightmare of history...
Ah, now don't be tryin to re-write history bb.
The vast majority of Brits came from England.
Anyway the best thing that can happen to Brit emigrants is to come to Australia and sit on the beach, and let the heat burn all the cr*p out of them and get sensible.
Then sit 'em up and learn some ITM, drink some cold beer, and think how lucky they are to be out of the rain.
There's a full list of people, including marines who came on the first Brit ships to Australia. There isn't one Irish name among them.
What are you like on Australian history?
Drink Aussie beers - what? is that supposed to educate them? Well, I guess it might, depends in what direction you mena, but all the ozzie beers I've had have been pretty poor - Aussies seem to drink anything that's cold, wet and fizzy and call it beer. Bleeuurgh!
Someone mentioned the fact that there's 60million Brits stuck on 1 and a bit islands, compared with Australia - ha - do you realise that Australia is actually the most urbanised culture in the world (except a few places like Singapore)? Australia may be vast, but if you live in a city there, are you really getting away from anything that you might have fled in Blighty?
Worth thinking about as well - Australia probably has the most significant water shortage / wastage issues in the world. The Murray Darling system is being pumped into a trickle to irrigate cotton and rice crops (wtf?).
Hey I don't mean to bash our Aussie mates, but some things are seriously screwed up there....
Australia may be vast, but if you live in a city there, are you really getting away from anything that you might have fled in Blighty? (brown creeper)
Are you kidding? You've got to be a New Zealander, haven't you? NZ is probably the most wannabe pommy places in the world after pommieland - and even some of pommieland wishes it wasn't, no doubt.
And so where has all the water got New Zealand. People can't stop getting out of the place. Why would that be?
And if you want to visit a quant museum-piece sort of a place and take a step back in time to show your kids what the world used to be like - New Zealand is the place for you.
What's *new* about it?
Not meaning to bash NZ though. And the sheep jokes! I don't even go there.
Kitchener didn't have anything to do with Australia, bliss. What planet are *you* on?
He was one of those poms responsible for the Gallipoli massacre. Idiots.
Ahm, that’s about 120 years after the poms arrived in Australia. Relatively very few Irish soldiers or civilians in the early days of Australia. The pommy New South Wales corp, led by John Macarthur a sheep-raising establishment pom here, actually toppled the Governor (even though it was William Bligh of the mutiny on the Bounty fame), and then ruled as a military junta and substituted rum for currency - because they controlled the rum. The got kicked out when Lachlan Macquarie arrived with his own troops - the Buffs - and they were a Scottish regiment, as was Macquarie. Only then did things start to get better.
Australia has a fine history as everyone knows. Never fought a war between ourselves, and didn't even have to fight the poms to get rid of them, like the yanks did. We just talked them out of it, reminded them of how hot it is, and how long it takes to get here, and they started feeling sick and just went home. Easy.
But Australia's finest contribution to the world is that grand pastime we have each Christmas called "Floggin the Poms" (that includes the kiwis) - that'd be 'cricket' to you.
Ah-hem, bliss, if you want to know about the Irish in the British Army, and speak about it with a bit of accuracy, you need to read about the Penal Laws in Ireland first. Here you are, you don't even have to go searching for it:
“Catholics barred from holding firearms or serving in the armed forces (rescinded by Militia Act of 1793)”
That would cover what percentage of the Irish population at the time? 99.9%?
The Brits arrived in Australia in 1788 – five years before the law was repealed. So the only Irish soldiers on the first fleet, if there were any at all, would have been English planter families.
Now if it wasn't legal then the lawyers they would sue
And the prisons would be full of folk who smoked a blunt or too [and they are!]
And if they didn't like it then away the girls would run
And if it wasn't plenty then the poor folk would get none
The penal laws applied to dissenters, not just Catholics. That's the type of thing Mr Myers used to point out. That's what led to the 1798 rebellion, dissenters, or Presbyterians if you like, having money but no rights, and decided to try and get some political power.
No matter what religion you were, if you took the King's shilling and enlisted they gave you a weapon.
Kitchener was 65 in 1915, you will find he is more noted for campaigns in the Sudan and the Boer War.
During the First World War he was continually ignored by his cabinet colleagues. You will find one Winston Churchill had more to do with Gallipoli.
As for New Zealanders always leaving the country, I was in Australia once, and the residents loved it. Admittedly Earl's Court is the only part of Australia I have visited.
And please send me more history lessons. According to some newspapers, and Kevin Myers, my position as Ireland's leading historian is allegedly under threat from Doctor Eamon Phoenix. Now Eamon was in my class at school, but neither teachers nor fellow pupils would have had Eamon (or Fiendish as he was called) anywhere near me when it came to history.
And I see I am making some strides in this discussion. At first you claimed there were no Irishmen in the British Army in Australia, now in it a few. By the end of the week the majority will probably be from Ireland.
The word theorised by the PhD candidate is black piper, not black man isn't it.
Did you actually read the history lesson, bliss?
I would find Churchill had more to do with Gallipoli would I? That's about the first thing anyone who knows anything about it knows. Kitchener was in the Sudan and Boer War - you don't say! You were in Australia once? That I can believe.
Irish soldiers in the first fleet I was talking about. You can shift the goal posts if you like.
And bliss, hate to tell you this - had an ancestor on the first fleet myself. (They weren't all convicts either before you haste to tell me they were.) He was a pommy through and through. Having been a member of that august body the first fleet association, have seen loads of information and lists and articles on it over the years.
It was a very pommy contingent I can assure you. Tell people here it was an Irish outfit and you'd be laughed at as an eccentric.
But hey, if you're Ireland's leading historian...well, God help you I suppose, because it certainly isn't apparent from what you're writing.
I suppose you'll be trying to tell us that the pommy cricket team that comes out here and then has to be institutionalised for psychiatric treatment when they get back there after getting trounced time and time again, are mostly Irish, so you can blame it on someone else !
For your information, too, bliss, the word didgeridoo isn't an indigenous Australian word. Indigenous Australians know that too. It's been researched, I'm not just making it up as I go along. Historians shouldn't do that, should they.
The word is acknowledge by indigenous experts too to be one manufactured by a pommy missionary, but hey, it could have been the Irish connection according to that PhD's theory.
What's fear gorm got to do with it? Read things carefully, bliss, twice even.
Black piper, black man, black dog, black coat, black car, the word BLACK is the important word here.
Black piper in Irish? Gorm, not dubh.
Kitchener doesn't SOUND Irish, if one was merely reading a list of names and trying to distinguish Irish people. Neither does Wellesley.
I didn't say ALL of the British soldiers were Irish, you are clutching at straws here. A large number were Scottish and Welsh.
If you are a non native Irish person, well you had best be J. Bowyer Bell if you are pontificating on Irish history.
As for cricket, a game played by 8 nations in the world, well, I don't know much about it. Murailataran or something like that from Sri Lanka is the best bowler ever, especially spin, the West Indies circa 1970s and 80s the best team ever, and Australia are quite good, but do a lot of wingeing and macho posturing, until they meet Freddie Flintoff.
I suppose I would still be a West Indies fan at heart. Mind you, anyone beating England are to be welcomed, at any sport.
Pity the Australians have a wimpish Rugby Union team, always getting steam rolled by the hated poms.
And PHD's are two a £12,000 over here, in Ireland, which if you look at an atlas, or google earth, you will discover is not in England.
You go very close to saying that the pom army was largely Irish. That's certainly the impression you are giving.
You go even closer to inferring that you're such an astute historian. Unfortunately the impression you're giving on that score isn't anywhere near so convincing.
Yes, we know that Arthur Wellesley was of the protestant ascendancy class system and born in Ireland.
I had ancestors that lorded it too, bliss. But hey, I won't bore us both with that detail. But I would say that there would be a very good chance that I'm able to trace my antecedents in those islands a good way back further than you.
Gee, bliss, PhDs are so affordable you should go and get yourself one, or two. Start with one for history. You need it, mate.
Mate, you go right ahead and spent the rest of the day moving the goalposts eh when you don't like the answers you get.
If I'm not there, you can continue without me.
Already have one in History, Irish history that is. Looking at politics now, as the masters is Irish Studies, (politics, sociology and social policy the options).
Traditionally, lots of Irish in the British army, still are today.
No pain at all, bliss.
The Australian rugby team as whopped the poms enough times in the past to go down in history - Australian history that is, even if the poms want to cover over the carnage. Rugby Union is a low-profile genre here, not many people are interested in it. It's always been viewed as a bit toffy and pommy for real people.
Gee, bliss, those PhDs are cheap aren't they! Maybe get a few more. Then you can probably do one online from a University in Australia that actually teaches you something. Won't be cheap though, like there as you say. I guess you get what you pay for eh.
Try getting one on Australian history if you want to comment upon it. They will start by telling you that Kitchener had nothing to do with the arrival of Brits in Australia. You apparently didn't know that. The Brits got here in 1788, bliss, in case you didn't know, not in 1888. The French got here a couple of days later.
Of course, indigenous Australians have been here for - well, they're still finding the earliest time - but it looks like at least 40,000 years, but maybe double that.
And you said Australia doesn't have a history, I think. Hmm, better get that PhD before you go making those sort of comments.
Don't flatter yourselves, jfiddler.
Everyone knows that poms can't damage Australians.
Many have tried, many have failed.
Oh, sorry, does living in Ulster make you a pom?
whooo...hoooo!
That should bring out the historians in some people, eh.
Isn't Bliss from Northern Ireland? I think Scots, N'orn Irish, and Welsh would be less than impressed to be called "poms."
At any rate, recruitment into the British army from the Scottish population was enormous. During the Napoleonic Wars, for instance, the Highlands supplied about 74,000 men for the regiments. When the '98 Rebellion broke out in Ireland, 10 of the 13 British regiments were Scottish. I don't have numbers for Scottish regiments in Australia but certainly they were there. Additionally, more than 17,000 Highlanders were "assisted" by landowners in emigrating to Australia and Canada during the famine years of the 19th century. About 4000 had settled in New South Wales by the mid-1830s and then in the worst years of the famine, 16,500 were forced to move there. And.... during the Gold Rush of the 1850s, 90,000 Scots went to Australia. More went to North America as it was easier to get to, but nevertheless Australia got substantial numbers.
Then there was transportation. Unfortunately I don't have numbers off hand for those (the numbers above were cited from T.M. Devine's book, The Scottish Nation, which happened to be on my desk) but in my work I look at 19th century Scottish court cases and by far, transportation was the most common sentence until it was prohibited in the 1870s.
BTW, the first Labour Prime Minister in Australia, in 1908, was Andrew Fisher from Ayrshire.
Oh, ta, silver. Why do you guys presume that Australians don't know these things?
You missed out that some of the leaders of the '98 attempted revolution in Ireland (I call it a attempted 'revolution' rather than a rebellion), were transported to Australia and that there was a similar uprising here not long after. Did you know that some of those people became influential citizens and politicians in Australia? Do you know about the Catalpa rescue? I guess not. The fact is that when you are talking to Australians you are in many cases talking to the descendants of the people you are describing. I know that sounds obvious, but people there seem to overlook it. And as strange as it might seem to you, many of us know our own history (and maybe even your own) better than you do.
Where the bloody hell do you think many ancestors of Australians came from? Mars?
Yes, Andrew Fisher was a pom, and primarily he was an Australian. (Ahm, notice he migrated. He and that group were instrumental in getting rid of the pommy government from here.) You see, the yanks had have recruited some poms to get rid of the poms, they wouldn't have had to fight a war to get rid of 'em, would they. Would have saved a lot of trouble.
You might find this a bit uncomfortable, but most of the world wouldn't draw a distinction between Scots English Welsh, - if you are in the 'politico-geographic' sphere of England, you'd be regarded as poms. Most people would think that if you speak English, especially if you live in those islands, you are poms.
I know that is hard to live with, but it seems to be the case.
My sympathies.
I was taking issue with characterizing the Army as English, when in fact it was made up of Scots and Irish as well.
I'm aware that the Irish rebels (as well as dissidents in Scotland) from the '98 rebellion, as well as subsequent risings in 1803, 1830, 1848, and 1867 were transported. That wasn't the point. You were talking about the "Brits" and "poms" arriving in Australia, so I was pointing out that more than English people emigrate to Australia.
As far as your last point goes, who are these "most people?" Have you spoken to "most people" and therefore can say with certainty that "most people" regard the population of these isles as "poms," regardless of which country they're actually talking about?
I was also reminding you that the heritage of most white Aussies is English, Irish, Scottish, or Welsh. Which you know yourself but you're still happy enough to have a go at "poms" (a label under which you yourself admit you lump England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, and Wales).
The advantage of living in a multicultural country and speaking over many years with migrants from just about every country in the world, is that you get a fairly good representative sample of what people in the world think. Statistical extrapolations do work you know.
We do actually know that more than the English emigrated to Australia. Yes. Those people are us actually.
The point I was making is that the very first "Brits" to arrive in Australia were actually English. For better or worse, that is the case. It is next to eccentric at best to try to give any other impression. It would also actually be a very sensitive cultural and political issue in Australia in the present day.
To indigenous Americans it would be like saying that the first colonists in Jamestown, Virginia were Russians, for example.
Does that illustrate the point?
By the way, I have heard it said by migrants to Australia in passing conversation that Ireland for example is simply part of England. It is a very common perception. As far as Scotland and Wales millions of people haven't even heard of them.
Well, silver, you see - we aren't poms. To us (and most of the world, I wager) poms live in Britain - and the pommy Army is pommy. Saying that "white Aussies" must be poms, is about the same as saying that "white Americans" are.
And for my part, I wouldn't ever equate "white" with being English, Scottish, Welsh, or Irish. It isn't the case anyway, but it also has a racist connotation. What is "white" anyway?
Does "white" come from Russia, Germany, Scandia, Italy, France, and any other place for that matter.
Have fun with that one won't you.
The context further up in the thread was about the first fleet.
(You don't need to tell me much about James Cook and Joseph Banks, either silver, so don't worry about that.)
I would think it would be fairly picky actually to say that there were "a few" Scottish members of the first fleet, or that it was "likely" that some crew on the Endeavour weren't from England.
Does that mean to imply that the fleet wasn't a pommy one?
If it does, I think that is called "moving the goalposts" . A handy strategy for trying to shift blame onto others.
The pommy army was a pommy army, not an Irish one, or a Scottish one - or a Jewish one, just because there might have been one or other of people of that background in the group.
And poms doesn't have a racist connotation? I lived in Australia for a year (so I'm not completely ignorant of the country) and I only ever heard that word used to refer to English people in a derogatory manner.
Yes, "white" Americans generally come from a Northern or Eastern European heritage. My point was that most "white" Australians, especially those whose families have been in the country for a few generations, come from the British Isles. Australia didn't get the mass Eastern European immigration in the nineteenth century that the US did. I never said that Australians ARE English.
Just because "most people" have never heard of Scotland or Wales or believe that Ireland is a part of England doesn't mean you, being wordly and multicultural, need to continue the practice of painting the very distinctive cultures of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales (they all even have their own languages) with one very broad and messy nosological brush.
If you really want I can give you the names of several soldiers and sailors on the First Fleet who were Scottish or Irish. I just wasn't bothered since this is thesession.org, not a PhD thesis.
Of course it's the British Army and of course the fleet was a British fleet and transportation, of course, was a policy created by the British Parliament. But that's political affiliation. When you say the first settlers in Australia were English, do you mean that they were affiliated politically with the British government. In that case, yes, I agree. If you mean that they were all actually from England, then I disagree.
That's the way, silver, a bit of spirit. Good person. We want thinking caps on don't we, not tin foil caps.
The term "poms" has about the same connotation, in my understanding anyway, as "yanks". I've actually had a pom try to tell me that "pom" really means "Prisoner of Mother England" (POM), and that really means Australians! Now, that is really trying to move the goalposts isn't it. It must be a pommy pastime.
And so what if you were able to give the names of some "non-English" people on the first fleet. There are also reports of at least one person of Carribean background. So? The list of people is thought to be not even complete. But it is the vast majority, and that vast majority was English, from England, including the marines.
Yes, silver, do go ahead and tell the names of the Scottish and Irish soldiers and sailors on the first fleet. You realise of course there were only two British naval vessels, the Sirius and Supply, in the fleet, don't you? The others were merchant ships.
So, let us recap. People who speak English are "Poms". Australians sort of speak a kind of English, are they "Poms"? Is this all about self hate?
I never said Kitchener was in Australia, I said he was Irish, too much sense to go to Australia.
I did say that a lot of the army in Australia were Irish. You are now agreeing with me, as you think "Poms" are anyone who speaks English, especially people from Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Most normal people believe the term "Pom" applies to the English.
And a little tip. When you are in a hole, stop digging. Liable to find yourself in Australia otherwise.
You should just admit you were wrong, nothing wrong with that.
Nice, avoiding addressing the point of this argument, which was your assertion that "poms" refers to anyone from England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, and why? Because "most people" (where? in Australia? I can't imagine everyone in Oz is that ignorant) can't tell the difference between those four countries, so therefore it's obviously reasonable to use the same slightly derogatory term for all of them. And for that matter, to label the first settlers in Botany Bay as "English" because they were operating under the directive of Parliament and yeah, most were from England but you yourself agree not all.
I have just read all of this. Mr Black or Dubh, early on states there were no Irish people in the original British army in Oz. He quotes a list he has.
Now he says there were loads of Irish but they are "Poms", and also says the lists are not complete.
Why do I bother trying to educate the unwashed. The man is a fool, talking about beating England at cricket. Yea, that's really going to upset the Irish, Scots and Welsh?
What an idiot. But he could be very young, so I forgive him, although I normally hate stupidity.
Being from Oz, I'd like to dissown him. Being from Irish/ scotts heritage, I'd like to thump him. He is right in asserting that the first fleet was mainly composed of English prisoners. However, there were some Irish and scots. There were no Irish POLITICAL prisoners untill much later on. And to call John MacAuther, a Scot effected by the highland clearances, a Pom, is plain stupid. Also very dangerous. He'd better be careful if he meets my wife, she'll give him a right thrashing. That family is very proud of their heritage.
And I don't know were in Australia the term Pom means English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh. I've only lived here for 48 years, and my family for 5 generations, but it's news to me.
Without going into too many details of why bliss has got it wrong - again - doesn't Ulster say it is British? If that is the case, you run a severe risk of being labelled poms.
Bliss, to answer your assertions in order:
1. No
2. No
3. No.
Silver, to answer yours - the first fleet to Australia was vastly and overwhelmingly English - from England. If you don't believe that, don't take my word for it, do some research, rather than just keep regurgitating your own views.
Biggus - LOL. Harold Larwood migrated to Australia, you did know that didn't you? Harold got shafted by the poms for bodyline when he was only under orders from the toffs, so he came to Australia where he lived the rest of his life. He wouldn't have been regarded as a pom here.
Which is a very similar situation, bliss, to the 1798 uprising.
So you don't think even one person from 1798 was transported to Australia do you.
Not even Michael Dwyer, the Wicklow Chieftain, one of it's leaders? Ahm - I thought you said you had a PhD in Irish history. Ah well, you did say they were cheap there didn't you. You get what you pay for I suppose, eh bliss. Talk about digging holes you can't get out of, bliss.
Poms can be so funny sometimes.
Michael Dwyer (1772 – 1825) was a United Irish leader in the 1798 rebellion and later fought a guerilla campaign against the British army in the Wicklow Mountains from 1798-1803. In December 1803 Dwyer finally capitulated on terms that would allow him safe passage to America but the government reneged on the agreement holding him in Kilmainham Jail until August 1805, when they transported him to New South Wales (Australia) as an unsentenced exile.
Dwyer had arrived in Sydney on 14 February 1806 in the Tellicherry and was given free settler status. He arrived with his wife and two eldest children. He was given a grant of 40.5 ha (100 acres) of land on Cabramatta Creek in Sydney.
Michael Dwyer died on 23rd August 1825 and was buried in a local cemetery. He was later re-interned in Waverly Cemetery in New South Wales, where 200,000 people attended the ceremonial unveiling of the grave and monument to him in 1898.
His descendants are still here, bliss, I have worked with one. A cousin of mine also actually wrote a book about Michael Dwyer– he really is an historian.
Ok, bliss, over to you. Quick push those goalposts over to the other side of the field!
Bliss, you aren't what we call a 'bush lawyer' here are you.
They are usually older gentlemen who put themselves forward as authorities on this or that, and have just enough information to get themselves into trouble, but not enough to get themselves out again.
"Them English", I think, wyogal. They might have a good point to make there, wyogal, yes. You can take the "man out of England" but sometimes you can't take the "England out of the man". Certainly the Amish seem to think so.
Australians don't do that though, wyo, we would feel a bit ungenerous. We only talk about poms who live in Britain.
Ireland isn't part of Britain, so we don't call them poms.
Northern Ireland....hmmm, they don't get off scot-free.
So, the Amish call everyone who isn't Amish, 'english', wyogal ? How interesting. I didn't know that. We Welsh call the English 'Saeson', cognate with Saxon and with Scots 'Sassenach'.
What wyogal means is: if they ain't "us", we'll call them something that defines them as "them" regardless of individual distinctions that are within the "them" subgroup
; p
Yes, wyogal, you beat me to it. I was working around to the idea that all people have their 'Other', and they usually project whatever they don't like (often about themselves) onto that Other. I believe it's to do with the social construction of identity.
DD, I do find it interesting that these names of peoples, going back more than a thousand years, still get used. The Welsh call their country Cymru, not Wales. The English are viewed as almost as foreign as the French or the Germans. But, personally, I find nationalism repugnant. I like to treat each individual as I find them, rather than lump them together into some tribal entity. My personal identity is defined by larger parameters than some arbitrary geographical location and historical accidents.
I won't think of, or call you a pom then. I can't speak for the rest mind.
I thought "Cymru" meant something like 'our compatriots' or somesuch. I would have thought a nice name for Wales might have been Prythonia or the like, as in p-celt Briton.
I don't really care how you think of me, DD, or what you call me, because it doesn't make any difference. Wolfbird is fine
Yes, some people say that 'the Cymru' means 'the comrades', or stems from an old word with that meaning, but I have read that is not correct, being a fanciful 19th.C invention, so I'm not sure of the origin.
I think a nicer word for England is Albion. But the Welsh call Scotland 'Alban'. What that means, I don't know.
I have to use the concepts of 'foreign' and 'nationalism', because they are the common currency I've inherited, but IMO, we are all just people on a planet, confused and trapped by a whole lot of nonsense and detritus left over from history.
Why the Welsh should have a grudge against the Saxons, I really don't understand, because both Saxons and Welsh were conquered by the Norman French.
Alba means 'white', wolfbird. Latin. The Romans probably gave it that name. Just like the picts. That's more common currency concepts you've inherited.
So it doesn't matter if I call you a pom then, wolfbird? You know, if I was to make an exception for you, you never know where that will end up. A dangerous precedent.
"I have to use the concepts of 'foreign' and 'nationalism', because they are the common currency I've inherited," -
Hmmm, wolfbird, that's sounds to me a bit on the dodgy side, and a bit of an out for wanting to reject nationalism but still wanting to keep thinking of others as 'foreign'.
And the Norman French didn't speak English did they, wolfbird.
Unforgiveable. At least those good old Saxons did eh. They couldn't have been all bad.
Oh, and blah, Macarthur was born in England and joined a pommy regiment which just missed out on fighting the yanks in the American Revolutionary war before coming to Australia and getting involved in fights with the pommy government, who put him on trial and tried to transport him back to England.
He then jointly led the pommy army in a putsch that arrested the pommy governor.
So you'd like to give me a thumping would you and your wife would like to thrash me. What makes you think you'd get a chance to do that anyway. But thanks for putting that in writing mate.
"And the Norman French didn't speak English did they, wolfbird"
Eh? You seem a bit muddled, DD. Much of the English that you and I are using to communicate IS Norman French...
Obviously I use the term 'foreign' where it is appropriate. What I don't do, is decide whether I like or dislike people, or anything else, because they are labelled 'foreign'.
I know that alba means white in Latin, DD, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's the same word as Albion or Alban. I think the name goes back to Ptolemy who made a map of these islands.
It is possible, of course, that Albion is linked to alba. I'd make a wild guess and say that the 'foreigners' arriving by the shortest route, Calais to Dover, would be impressed by the white cliffs, but, rather interestingly, 'Dover' derives from a Welsh word for water, dyfr. That was, presumably, the name the place had when the Welsh owned England, before the arrival of the Romans. So people would say " I'm going down to the water", meaning they were going to embark on a voyage across the sea to France. And some dumb foreigner heard 'dyfr' and thought it was the name of the place. Maybe ?
I just love it the lengths that some poms go to move goalposts. It is intriguing, but very entertaining.
English was a very second class language to the Normans. French was the language of the ruling classes for centuries there. English is a conglomeration of influences, but it is primarily English - not Norman French.,
You guys are great craic.
I can buy the dyfr/Dover theory though - but I wouldn't pay you a lot for it, mind.
"dumb foreigners", bliss, is it. So you use "foreign" when it's appropriate do you - like when you want to call someone "dumb". Does that include Irish people?
Like I said, DD, I have to use the terms I've inherited. I'm not personally responsible for the muddle that is called 'English'.
For example, I don't understand your references to 'goal posts', because I'm not playing football. I don't even like football. Why would people pay money to watch the same thing over and over again ? Beats me.
BTW, I gather that the Irish - and I'm happy to defer to the erudition of Mr. Bliss on this, not having the advantage of a Ph.D. in Irish history - call a section of their population 'Old English', when they were, in fact, Norman French and Welsh invaders.
Perhaps you're descended from that ancient stock yourself, DD, for all I know. Perhaps you're more Welsh and French than you realize ?
You don't actually *have* to use the terms you've inherited. Dare to be different, wolfbird.
You don't have to be playing football to be moving goalposts.
I am sure I am descended from a few ancient stocks, wolf. All of the above actually, French as well laterly - ibut also ncluding a certain chief justice of the marches in henry viii's time. Ludlow, of course.
The old boy is buried under an effigy in the church there.
You mean make up my own new language, DD ? How do you know I havn't ? The only problem, as Wittgenstein pointed out, you wouldn't understand, so, alas, I'm obliged to use vernacular english.
Well, you see, that ancestor of yours probably met an ancestor of mine. Of course, if he was merely a chief justice, he'd have had to doff his cap to mine, because mine were aristocrats.
Tell me then, why use the goalposts metaphor ? How do I score a goal on a web forum ? Where's the ball ? You'll be telling me next that the playing field isn't level...
'Harold Larwood migrated to Australia, you did know that didn't you? '
yes,and even about mr jardine too.
indeed,i enjoyed an old australian series about the bodyline tour(from the '80s,i think.)
to continue in the spirit of patronising presumption though...
'doesn't Ulster say it is British?'
well,some of it might...but:
Ulster consists of nine counties,three of which make up part of the republic of Ireland,you did know that,didn't you?
some groups belonging to the loyalist tradition certainly claim to be british and until recently would fight the british on this very point,you did know that,didn't you?
re all this stuff about poms though - i have to say that i prefer 'limey' ,'sassenach' and 'rosbif' to 'pom' but that's just on account of the actual phonetic sound - maybe 'pommy'(pommie?) is better?
anyway,let me give you a big,sloppy kiss for international socialism in the hope it gets you away from your hang up with nationalistic matters.
Vernacular English is it - like "dumb foreigner" as you said.
I know, I know, you can't help it, you've inherited it - maybe something to do with that "aristocrat" you're talking about.
The chief justice was the youngest son, I believe, wolfbird. He probably got a junior posting. The family traces back to 1066 on that line, I understand.
But hey, no need to worry, we're all Australian here now. That's higher than any mere pommy aristocrat. So you better start deferring to your superiors, wolf.
We don't doff caps to anyone, wolf, especially poms, you should know that by now.
You should know the old saying, wolf, surely:
"never give a pom an even break".
We don't.
Oh, biggus, of course I knew all that.
There you go presuming Australians don't know anything about the history there. Many don't. I do.
Look, biggus, I'm actually being very polite, and find it very entertaining, as most Australians do, to see the reactions to this word 'pom'. Let alone 'pommie'. Makes the poms go a nice shade of red doesn't it. LOL.
Now, the Australian vernacular actually is "pommy b*st*rd" , but I haven't gone that far have I.
By the way, Jardine probably wouldn't have been let in. Pompous eejit.
Seems to me you're embarrassed by your own ancestry and try to cover it over with this veneer 'We're all Australians now'. If you didn't have some sort of neurotic complex about it you wouldn't be forever making such a fuss and feeling so threatened by imaginary poms (Whatever they are ? Just some dumb label meaning nothing whatsoever, IMO)
Well, I've been to Australia and found them an extremely friendly, laid back, helpful and good humoured bunch of people. Much more so than here in London, and they don't have the same hang-ups about class tathe English do. Culture? What does that mean anyway? How many of us actually experience indigenous 'culture' on a daily basis? I don't know how you can justify your comments if you've never been there. Sad, really.
Also, when Aussies use the term Pom, I think they use it just slightly jokingly, slightly derogatory, kind of p!ss-taking. Not quite the same as the N-word or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, why are you worried, aren't you Welsh?
Are those remarks directed to me, KML ? If so, you seem to have taken them seriously, when they were only intended to tease duijerah dubh.
Given the choice between London and Australia, I'd choose the latter any day, so long as I could avoid cities and bury myself in the outback. You surely don't believe I'd judge Australia by tv or Barry Humphreys do you ? All my family and relatives have lived in NSW for more than thirty years, so I have a clear idea of what Australia is really like, even if I've never been there.
I'm not worried in the least, KML. If I have to have a label, yes, I'm Welsh. Way back up the thread, DD wanted to include Welsh, Scots, and N. Irish under his label 'pom'.
wolf, if I was embarrassed by my ancestry I wouldn't have mentioned it would I. I am quite proud of it actually. I have a background from every part of the United Bongdom and significant amounts of European and others just to make life interesting.
Geez, wolfbird, how the mighty have fallen - the descendants of pommy aristocrats veging out in front of Aussie soaps like Neighbours and Home and Away. Although I grew up on those beaches, I actually don't resort to sitting there watching that stuff. It's for poms really.
Germaine Greer, wolfbird - she's lived in pommyland for the last thirty years hasn't she. She'd be a pom now. Can't even spell Kata Juta either. (Kaja Tjuta indeed.) She must be going tooti fruiti. Silly pommy quoit.
KML - 'poms' can be neutral; 'pommy' has a slight p*sst*ke, 'pommy b*st*rd* ' means what it says.
(and we spell pommy with a 'y', not an 'ie' - you don't want to be wasting letters on poms.
biggus - you've just *got* to change that pseudonym. Biggus dave indeed. Biggus Diggus if you're all into digging holes you can't get out of. And if you're into throwing kisses around, maybe Biggus D*...us - well, I'll leave it to you to work out.
Dubh far be it from me to flatter anyone, but i will point out that i know Bliss and he is a man of great self-control.
He has the ability at any minute to walk away from the discussion in the sure knowledge that his opponent will keep checking day after day, month after month to see if he will return.
This causes a steady deterioration in the persons life, losing their job, then partner and eventually turns them to drink in a darkened room driven mad by insomnia keeping a vigil on the mustard pages to see if the blissful one will return to take the field.
The question you should ask yourself.... Do you have the same ability???
By all means carry on chaps but don't say i didn't warn you!
And KML, you're so right, Australians don't have any hang-ups about class that the poms do. We just know that we're way above any pom.
Oh, really, jfiddler - and how long has bliss been hammering away at the mustard pages? Don't kid yourself, it is his raison d'etre, and the high point of his life.
I just came here originally to get tunes and didn't have anything to do with the discussion forum for years, until I wanted to research something and found it very helpful, but also couldn't help notice what seemed to me to be all the poms chattering on about this or that.
Why is it always the poms? If I had an accent like that, I wouldn't be advertising it.
DD, just to keep the record straight ( I mean, I expect that scholars will be examining the fine detail of this diatribe in years to come, wanting to establish the peculiar nature of contemporary international correspondence and the definition of 'pom') , I did state quite clearly that I saw Neighbours *once*.
Once was sufficient.
Home and Away remains untouched by my attention. Did I miss something important ? Possibly.
Yes, I suppose, if I think about it, I am proud of my ancestry. They built castles and stuff. Nothing like that in Australia is there. Nothing to touch chivalrous knights galloping about, except Ned Kelly with a bucket on his head. Hardly compares with the Arthurian Legends, does it....
Take my advice, wolf. Don't watch Home and Away, it'll will make you hate the cold rain and grey skies of Old Mouldy and stop you going outside.
Why would Australia need castles, wolf. We build other things.
Knights galloping around the streets would usually get committed to an institution.
Ned Kelly was an Irish Australian who took on the poms against all the odds knowing that he would not win. Knowing you're not going to win is no excuse, as he knew, for not taking the opportunity of hammering the poms. His family was intimidated, bashed, discriminated against and falsely accused by the pommy police mainly because the family was poor and Irish. He was quite eloquent in his address to the court following his sentence. No one remembers the poms involved. People remember the bucket before the poms. It's actually a national icon.
Arthurian legends are probably just that - legends.
Ned Kelly at least was real.
Funny poms.
Yeah, DD, I can see that a bucket would be a suitable national emblem for you, I mean, you've got no water because you've wrecked your climate with all those motor cars. Bucket with a hole in it. Very suitable and appropriate.
I was talking about *proper* history, not some incident with a guy who gets famous because he put a bucket on his head. Proper history is like the church here, built 600 AD.
There are plenty "churches" and sacred places, wolfbird, in Australia that indigenous people have held so for tens of thousands of years. I have been to them, one in particular in my local area. Gives you a perspective on life that nothing I have been to in Old Mouldy can give.
Leave fixing the water problem to us, wolf. We're actually used to water shortages in case you didn't know. It's a big ocean out there isn't it - well it is here anyway.
That bucket scares the c*ap out of poms, wolf. They usually get sh*tty and abusive about it. Take a close look. Imagine a big Irishman decked out in this clobber lumbering slowly towards you, step by step, guns blazing, your mates dropping around you one by one, and you there blazing away, sweating with fear, and your bullets pinging off that armour... and what did the poms do? They had to shoot him in the foot. Typical pommies.
I told you, never give a pommy an even break. That's the only mistake he made. He probably would have ended up President of an Australian Republic if he hadn't have done that.
Don't be scared now, have a look... http://www.ironicon.com.au/
>>....the poms? If I had an accent like that, I wouldn't be advertising it.
Well, apart from pot calling the kettle black, I have to ask, in fairness to the poms, which English accent do you mean? There are probably hundreds of English accents. And I mean English-English, those in England. England's English accents are probably more varied than anywhere else that speaks English.
Wut ? They've got stuff like that in the ironmongers shop in the village, DD. Just like that. Old ladies go in there to buy their budgie seed.
Remember, we Welsh invented the longbow. Shot wooden arrows straight through buckets like that, through the head, and out the other side. Remember Agincourt ? That's *proper* history.
Anyway, all I can do is shake my head and mutter words of pity and consolation, DD. I know it's tough being Australian and it's only natural to seek comfort wherever you can get it, but I've got things to do, so I'll have to leave you to mull it all over. Don't get too despondent. Even a bucket with a hole in it, is better than nothing, I suppose, no ?
Isn't generalizing the qualities of any nation, religion, race etc just a bit old skool?
This discussion has rather a lot of examples ("we, the Welsh", "Typical Pommies"."Australians don't have any hang ups").
Also we ought to have a sweepstake on how many more postings it takes until someone mentions the Third Reich!
What's that mentioning the Nazis rule called?
What a load of sh*te. DD is probably the most racist tosser I've come across for a while. He does not represent the vast majority of Australians, because he doesn't know what he is talking about. And I doubt that he has ever left the country. Just to set the record straight, and yes DD, you ain't the only first fleeter here, Poms means English. It can either be an insult, as in "Go home you Pommy Bastard" ,"You Pommy Bastards couldn't kick a footy if your life depended on it", or it can be a term of endearment, as in " how're you going you Pommy Bastard?"
We call the Scots jocks, the irish Paddy's, the Welsh Leeks, and the Americans Seppo's ( as in septic Tank=yank).
The only exception is when we talk about people from Britain who came out on the 10 pound passage sceme. These are without exception called "10 pound poms" and we don't give a stuff if this is acurate or not. It's just a bit of fun.
And yes DD, Macarther was born in England. His parants escaped there after a little thing called Culloden. Maybe you've heard of it? Then again, maybe not.
Does that make him English? Well maybe it does. But more likely it doesn't. Can you explain why the Macarthers refused to employ anyone except Gaelic speaking Scot's? Mmm, probably because, according to you, they thought of themselves as English.
I'll explain -
Since you mentioned Basil Fawlty...
Harold Bishop, Ian somethingorother (who once called himself 'The Australian John Cleese'), used to make me SHUDDER - kind of like wretching, but swallowing it down with a squirm.
Watching Neighbours, I found myself going red a few times. Being so embarrassed for someboday. Watching them make a T I T of themselves, and going red. You can do it too DD - fair play.
Is it an Australian thing?
Never heard of Harold Bishop, Hugo, sorry.
It must have been more stuff made for pommy consumption.
Please don't make me watch Neighbours, Hugo, I've proudly never seen an episode and I don't want to start now.
It's for poms, mate. Big bucks from the poms for it.
This is more drama than the Battle of Britain isn't it.
Angry? why the feck would I be angry? Dear oh dear DD, you really have no idea have you mate. I'm guessing that you are a little young, and therefore I forgive you, but maate, you do have your head up your bum. But hey, that's okay. Do us a favour and stop trying to represent all Australians because you don't. Have as much fun as you like giving everyone the sh*t's, but do it as representing yourself. Because me old china, you come across as a flamin'dropkick with a chip on your shoulder when you start crapping on about some of this sh*t.
"some people don't like what they don't agree with"
i.e. "some people like what they agree with", so therefore "some people" (the different bunch of "some people") do dissagree with what they like.
I'm getting confused!
But if you say it's fine, it must be OK!
Thank you.
>I'm just trying to politely address assertions, KML
yeah right. Like politely asking if he's from Queensland. Nothing to do with the prejudice about Queensland people being conservative or anything?
Its called a double negative, not accepted in standard English but common in vernacular English.. Which is a living language. So common expressions from today could become acceptable and standard in the future. U Know Wot I mean... Gr8 eh.
Maate,I'll clear up a few "assertions"
Poms means English EXCEPT for ten pound poms! Sorry, always has, always will in Australia.
It is either a term of endearment, or one of abuse. It's all in the context, and reading your threads it comes across as the latter.
And speaking as a typical Australian mongral, I have Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, Spanish and Jewish in my make up. This means I can make bad jokes about most racial groups, and also take offence when someone else tells thems.
Cheers DD, That was a bit of fun. You know, it was just like beating the Poms at cricket. No matter how many times you do it, you just never get sick of it.
>Never mind KML, the yanks would have saved you. Again.
I wouldn't be so sure. They only joined in because of Pearl Harbour. And youse, because of Darwin. Apart from that it was Britain and Russia and no-one else.
Darwin!?
Australia joined the war immediately after Churchill's announcement as far as I know.
A lot of people here loved old Winston, don't you know? The generations here up to then really thought they were poms.
My family was no exception, I have to say. Most were the same.
Hopefully everyone knows better now.
I agree. But don't they call Darwin Australia's Pearl Harbour? Although Aus was already officially in the war against Japan, by a few weeks or months or something, Darwin was the spark that got them to really take this business seriously...I think...
Believe it or not, the Darwin attack was kept fairly hush-hush at the time. The government didn't want to panic the place.
It's argued that the bombing of Darwin was more about sinking British and American ships in the harbour rather than a precursor to an invasion, at least at that time anyway. It's a logistically difficult task to attack Australia at that point and maintain supply. A bit like the Germans in Russia in ww2.
No, I think part of the Aussie army was off to North Africa way before that, and was then called back by the government here when things got bad. Churchill didn't like that. He wanted to keep the aussies over there and if Australia fell, you blokes would come and bail us out. Hmmm. Anyway, they didn't believe it here, so recalled them. The other part of the aussie army was ordered to surrender at Singapore by the aussie govt, and went through hell then on the Burma railway (you know, bridge on the river kwai stuff). Many died horribly.
I think I would rather have fought than surrender and I am sure many of them would have felt the same.
Anyway, they won't be doing that again should a situation ever arise again.
I have just heard back this minute, KML, by the way since you're here, from a distant cousin in Herefordshire who is a meticulous historian, and who has finalised his research into our roots there back to the 1400s or so and back to the Normans before that. But I still won't be tugging my forelock to wolfbird. As if.
Yeah, thanks for the correction on Darwin.
So you're telling me "Dubh" is a Norman surname, then? I wouldn't call that a fine example of Norman Wisdom......
Nah, KML. My surname is a gaelic Irish name. Old. A real one. Never was a pom on that side, even up to the Revolution, when they on that side over there were in the old IRA.
That was against the poms wasn't it.
Which is a very similar situation, bliss, to the 1798 uprising.
So you don't think even one person from 1798 was transported to Australia do you.
Not even Michael Dwyer, the Wicklow Chieftain, one of it's leaders? Ahm - I thought you said you had a PhD in Irish history. Ah well, you did say they were cheap there didn't you. You get what you pay for I suppose, eh bliss. Talk about digging holes you can't get out of, bliss.
Poms can be so funny sometimes.
says Diujera dubh.
Michael Dwyer, fighting a guerilla campaign in County Wicklow from New South Wales was he?
As EVERYONE, bar your good self knows, Michael Dwyer took part in the 1803 skirmish/rebellion, the one associated with Robert Emmet, 5 years after he took part in the 1798 rebellion. So he was not deported for his role in the 98 rebellion, as I said.
But enough of this. I have contacted a few Ulster poms in Sydney, those who took part in the "troubles" from 1969 to 1994, now living in Oz. They are keen to continue the discussion, especially the bit about them wanting to be British and being "Poms". I suggest you purchase one of those suits that the famous "Pom" Ned Kelly wore. Ned obviously was a "pom", he spoke nglish.
I have now read all of this, and must add a few asides.
Common example of a "Pom". An Englishman who settles in Australia, such as say Harold Larwood.
But DD says Harold is not a "Pom".
To DD, "Pom" seems to be a derogatory term. A word of advice. If you ever meet any new immigrants in Australia from the North of Ireland, please do not call them "Poms", even in jest. People from Ardoyne and Crossmaglen may have a different sense of fun, like disemboweling idiots. Those Old IRA "Poms", from Ulster, the majority since 1969, can be a bit touchy.
As for me? Despite JfiddlerH's confidence in me, I admit defeat. I remember a bit of advice I once heard;"To be reasonable with stupid people can be dangerous, as they are too stupid to be reasonable".
Normally I can cope. But when faced with a zealous, unadulterated , maniacal, fanatical, really worked at for years stupidity, I must admit defeat. No-one could argue with someone whose main sense of pride seems to be that they are the greatest eejit in the world.
There is no shame in walking away from such an onslaught of sheer, crass stupidity.
Thank the Lord I know many Australians, otherwise I may now believe that "Home and Away" is written by the Australian Shakespeare.
As for Winston Churchill? He didn't happen to meet you in 1915 by any chance DD, just before he came up with the Gallipoli plan?
I used to teach A-level History and was once offered a job in a posh Melbourne school, when I contemplated moving to Oz. Imagine having a class of DD's? I also taught political science. The thought of discussing politics with him, aaarrgggghhhh.
Please, reassure me that he is a one off? If not, I may be considering nuclear options.
since you scorn the sloppy kisses of international socialism and seem bent on a peculiar form of snobbery i will have to desist the sloppy kisses lest you think i fancy you and your entire pom free(on one side only,mind) family.
so,,,it's merely the firmest of handshakes in the cause of international socialism for you and consider it your loss that the big sloppy kisses are no more.
There's a full list of people, including marines who came on the first Brit ships to Australia. There isn't one Irish name among them.
What are you like on Australian history?
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
We only talk about poms who live in Britain.
Ireland isn't part of Britain, so we don't call them poms.
Northern Ireland....hmmm, they don't get off scot-free.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
You might find this a bit uncomfortable, but most of the world wouldn't draw a distinction between Scots English Welsh, - if you are in the 'politico-geographic' sphere of England, you'd be regarded as poms. Most people would think that if you speak English, especially if you live in those islands, you are poms.
I know that is hard to live with, but it seems to be the case.
My sympathies.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
And so what if you were able to give the names of some "non-English" people on the first fleet. There are also reports of at least one person of Carribean background. So? The list of people is thought to be not even complete.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
I print the above to illustrate that I was not being harsh.
However, Duijera Dubh I have discovered has one talent, he can use google and look up wikipedia.
His entire definition of "poms" is from wikipedia, and he seems to have managed to cut and paste the entire piece of Michael Dwyer from the same source. And he did this all on his own.
And KML, let us hope the lads are in a good mood and you are right about the knee caps. Unfortunately they may well be angry ;- 0
This whole "Aussie complex vis-a-vis the English" playing itself out is very cringifying but also strangely intriguing. How embarrassing for the normal, well-adjusted Aussies on thesession.org. The ones I know are being very quiet.
In all my years of living in Australia, I've never ever heard the term "Pom" used in a derogatory way. I've also never heard it used to refer to anything other than the English (apart from the "10 pound Pom" thing of course). Of course there's a first time for everything...
Well, bb, I think the whole idea of countries is rather daft (btw, are you using the word as synonymous with nation, tribe, ethnic group ?)
The way i see it, there is only this little planet we call Earth. Folks draw lines and put up fences and say 'this bit is mine', 'our bit is better than yours', 'we are superior because we are rich and powerful'. It's all like five year olds playing in a sand pit.
I was just passing some time, pulling Duijerah Dubhs leg. I think he took it in good part ? Sorry if anyone was offended by anything I said. As I said, nowhere was I serious. If anyone wants a serious discussion, I'm willing, another thread, another day.
I have never, ever, ever heard the word "pom" used to describe Welsh, Scottish or Irish people - and I have only lived in Australia for 30 years. The word Pom is used in reference to English people - usually when talking about sport and usually in a jokey kind of way.
yeah - no worries wolfbird....I get what you are saying
Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I nearly choked on my cornflakes this morning: Kevin Myers praises traditional music as "the great and unique glory of Irish life".
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/goodbye-country-pubs-hello-dull-norwegian-clean-living-1376449.html
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by don't touch the green linnet
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The house dances apparently passed him by if he thinks music relied on pubs.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I think the point is that music does need a pub these days in order for it to thrive.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by session savage
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Still doesn't change the fact that he is a bombay sh*tehawk.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by ireland78
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'I think the point is that music does need a pub these days in order for it to thrive'
But does it? I have a deep dislike playing over the noise of the drinkers, the large majority of my playing takes places in my own house or the houses of friends, the pub has no role in it whatsoever.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I'd never heard of him before, as I don't take that paper. but that is one dangerous fool of a man.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I just had a look round at some of his other outpourings and here's what he has to say about Scotland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers
Myers caused controversy on 8 February 2006 in his Irishman's Diary when he referred to Scottish people as obese and dependent on the welfare state.
There lies the ruin of Scotland - subsidies. Guaranteed transfers of capital from England have created a political culture of sloth which is now endemic and even personalised. Scottish people are the most obese in Europe, in which regard they resemble the wretched Scottish statelet. Only a minority of Scottish people work for a living - and most of those who have jobs are employed by the state: 577,300. In other words, they are employed by the English to manage themselves. The rest of the Scots are on the dole or pensions, living in state-owned housing estates, sending their children to state-run schools, where the most likely form of personal enterprise they will ever encounter is their local heroin-dealer.
On the 17 January 2007 he wrote a similar article about Scotland, drawing in the topical issue of the country's possible secession from the United Kingdom or gaining of some other form of independence.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Kilfarboy, your luck so.
)
My plan is to achieve what you have. My house is being built at the moment but when its finished I'm gonna try to get a regular session going there. (if herself will let me
lately its in the pub or not at all.
My friends and myself have had great sessions at each others houses but all too infrequently. Hopefully when we have all stopped roaming and we settle down we might get something regular sorted. But until then its the local.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by session savage
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
H'es probably right to an extent but there are far more other mediums for trad music now than there was 30 to 40 years ago. There are far more festivals and concerts and the like so people have a choice of where to go.
Then again pubs are and important part of the life and what not. And its a nice change to see something different written about the music instead of the usual p*ss take!
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I don't think any newspaper commentator in another western country would excuse drunk driving the way Myers does.
And BTW: what is a Pecksniff?
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by kuec
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
So again, the question remains, doesn't it? Wither the pub, wither the music?
Signed, a concerned Yank.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Interesting article... I know that pubs have been closing at an alarming rate, but I wonder if it can all be pointed at the smoking ban and drunk driving law... Ireland, as a whole, has gotten more affluent, and more technologically advanced. People have remodeled their houses into nicer estates, with satellite TV and broadband internet. In short, there are more things to do to be social than going down to the local for a pint.
I am sure that the smoking ban is responsible for at least part of it. I owned a fairly successful bar/nightclub that went out of business, partially due to a ban on smoking in the city. But part of the problem at the time was that the neighboring cities didn't ban smoking at the time, so people took their business elsewhere. Now the entire state has banned smoking in bars and restaurants, and while there was an initial shock to the industry as people were getting used to it, things have recovered, and the bar business seems to be thriving here now.
I do understand that pubs in Ireland (especially rural places) are a different thing than bars and restaurants in the US, but I am wondering if there are actually some instances of new pubs opening up that are counteracting some of the pub closures there...
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
That's a good point too Rev. I wonder how much globalization has to do with it as well, giant shopping malls and the great glory of the plastic consumer lifestyle, so on, etc. and gag.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I cringe when I think of the big shopping centers, 24 hour Tesco stores, and "plastic consumer lifestyle" in Ireland, too... but then again, it's nice to live with modern conveniences, and who are we to say "gosh, I wish your economy still sucked, so that your country could stay quaint for when we visit"...
Change is inevitable, so it's a wonder that we, as humans, seem so resistant to it...
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Gasp!--the guy had the temerity to point out the obvious. And more than once.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Ah, there's the distinction. It's not the conveniences or the economy that's the problem, obviously, no one's happier for Ireland's affluence than Irish Americans, it's forsaking what's good in your own culture for what another says you should. American Idol and materialistic one-upmanship versus community, The Music, sessions, and dancing, for example. The loss of community and neighborhood is rampant everywhere in our virtual age.
Then again, it's just those *&@&# kids today! Same problem everywhere you go! Grumble mumble...
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'People have remodeled their houses into nicer estates'!
Oh, dearie me, no, Reverend.
Mansion-building and all those Section 23 'tax incentive' dwellings are an astonishing blight on the land. The Shannonside village of Leitrim used to consist of just a scattering of houses and a few pubs alongside the main road. It now has a huge estate of, largely, empty four-, five- and six-bedroom houses built as investments. Keshcarrigan's another once lovely village in Leitrim which has been similarly blighted and there are other examples from all over the country.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Mr Myers is one of Ireland's best journalists.
He belonged to the revision school of Irish history, pointing out that the freedom fighting heroes of yore were not all saintly, church loving men, as was often portrayed.
Unfortunately as the slaughter went on in N.Ireland he became slightly unhinged (much like Conor Cruise O'Brien, another literary great,) and began to go well over the top with his stories.
Controversy sells however, and alas Myers tends to go over the top with all of his stories nowadays.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Gee MacC, Leitrim sounds like Florida, half vacant suburban tracts as far as the eye can see. Pop goes the housing bubble.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Mein Gott! am i not secure from the likes of kevin myers even on these hallowed mustard pages?
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
"Reckless youngsters"?? Pffft.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Myers sounds like he's got a few good points.
Drug sellers ought to be locked up. (is it still ok to say that these days, or is it politically incorrect, or downright illegal?)
Druggies are a waste of space.
Drugs are the enemy of culture, and have no place in it.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'Drugs are the enemy of culture, and have no place in it'
And I remember someone saying 'it's our culture to go out and get totally hammered' Ah well...
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Sure wasn't it bodhrans they were talkin about, kil.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Drugs are welcome in Irish society as they prove to be about 5% as harmful as drink, the ruination of Ireland throughout the ages.
But I don't care, lock me up if you like.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, the statement was drug sellers ought to be locked up.
Do you sell 'em then bb?
Too much drink is as bad as drugs. Don't drink.
Drugs are a money-making scam at the expense of the health, mental and physical, of the most vulnerable.
Give the drugs to the drug sellers - then lock em up.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Don't they kneecap people in some parts of the world for a lot less than selling drugs. Hmmm.
Drugs are for eejits.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Lock 'em up? How about tax 'em? It's a double profit bonanza for the state, stop wasting money prosecuting and storing drug criminals while making money licensing and taxing dealers. You can't really stop people from doing drugs, drinking, gambling, smoking, having ex, or whatever it is. That's life. [shrug]
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'sex' not 'ex' I don't recommend 'sex' with 'ex'es, and no, none of my exes live in Texas.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
How about tax em *and* lock em up. Oh, hey that's what happens here anyway - proceeds of crime legislation.
I wouldn't be trying to stop anyone - they'll stop when it kills them.
Who started those Opium Wars again? Oh yeah, that was the British Government wasn't it. The Chinese didn't like the British importing drugs into the country and objected - so Britain invaded the place! Charming. Is that still happening.
Funny how all that fighting is going on in Afganistan in and around the opium poppy crops. Plenty of soldiers getting killed, but hey, don't touch the poppies. Funny that, in a gruesome sort of way.
Drugs are for eejits. Ever noticed that?
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
and as far as I know, sex doesn't kill you - unless you really overdo it, or you're not really choosey about your friends!
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Cannabis cannot be legalised for one reason. The large multi-national chemical firms, who play an increasing role in running the world, would lose a fortune. All those dangerous habit forming drugs, Valium, mogadone? and the rest, well no-one would take them if cannabis was available.
We couldn't possibly have the big drug companies losing money.
Much better to have dealers, inner city crime, not to mention funding for all terrorist/freedom fighting organisations.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The big companies don't sell ice, meth, ecstasy too do they?
Haven't heard it yet. Probably it's being mixed up by those dealers, inner-city crims...wouldn't be anyone else would it?
Big companies make more out of forcing you to buy petrol for your car every day at extortionate prices, rather than be able to import your Japanese liquid natural gas cars and use cng - for your car *and* your home heating. You know, Australia has some of the biggest natural gas reserves and we can't buy cng cars here. It's illegal to import them. Meanwhile, they export the gas for around 3c a litre.
That would be nice to heat your homes over there for that price wouldn't it. Sounds like you're all going to have to resort to selling drugs to get enough money to heat your homes the way things are going there.
Sounds like some fun!
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Duijera Dubh, there's some massive holes in your logic, like 'they'll stop when it kills them' ....
erm, far more people die from taking the legal drugs than die from the illegal ones...the reason why alcohol and tobacco remain, not just legal but heavily promoted and advertised, is because of all the vested commercial interests which make a lot of money from the trade...and because a lot of that money goes to the Treasury and the folks who make the laws.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Why would Australians be so dumb as to import any gadgets that use fossil fuel when you've got all that free sunshine ? Leave the natural gas where it belongs, in the ground.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
erm, far more people die from taking the legal drugs than die from the illegal ones...
So what's logical about that. Don't smoke. Very simple.
Some of us are working on the solar stuff, don't worry about that, sunshine.
Others want to export the gas to you guys and get you to pay a fortune for it, and keep us using it as well so they can charge us almost as much. Not as much as you, mind, so we have some reason not to complain, knowing that the poms - and whoever else - are paying more than us. Which you do.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
When's the invasion of Afganistan to get rid of the opium poppies going to happen? LOL. Geez that'll be a cold day in hell won't it.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I heard the Afghani farmers are changing to planting wheat, it's more profitable that poppies, heroin street prices are very low.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
That's what you hear wolfbird. It wouldn't be all b*sh*te would it?
But if they do anyway, that'll make the heroin prices go up, and make a lot of other people rich by selling it to eejits.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
BBC World Service, DD. Yes, next year there'll be a shortage of poppies, so the prices will go up. Market economics.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, the BBC would know then would it. Funny if there isn't a shortage of poppies but the prices still go up. Just like petrol.
They're a load of b*llsh*te aren't they?
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, I don't care either way, DD. I hate cars, which kill a lot more people that heroin, and I hate heroin. I have an excellent life without either. And I eat oat bread, but I have to buy a few sacks of wheat for my birds. The price doubled since the last lot, 6 months ago.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Eat the birds, you'll save heaps.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Anyway, that's what you get for living on that overpopulated wet rock, where you can't grow enough of anything to feed the millions. It must be a real problem now that the Brits can't transport people anymore. They'll probably have to bring in capital punishment next. No doubt they'll start with the drug sellers. It's a funny old merry go round isn't it.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Yeah, too right, DD. I wish 70% of the population would go away and then these Islands would be grand. But where to put them all ? Send 'em all to Oz ? Tried that, and look at the result....
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
That's right. You get Rupert Murdochs to come back and buy your newspapers and tell you more b*llsh*te.
There's hope for you yet though. The Oz Labour Govt just announced today that they are increasing unskilled migration - unskilled that's right - up to 300,000 per year, due to the chronic labour shortage in this country. That will be the biggest intake we have had since WW2. It is an historic change, but if they don't do it, they won't be able to run the place soon enough. So there you go, off to Australia House now and fill out your forms. Millions of poms can now come here, but they probably won't because they think it is too far away and too hot, and too this or that. The Chinese don't mind the place a bit though, nor the Indians, and the rest of Asia.
Ah well, I guess you're all just gonna have to squash in their a bit more eh. Anyway, you'll be able to share umbrellas and get on swimmingly.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Anyway, I'm away outside now to watch the druggies. That's good craic.
I shall return!
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Naah, I've seen OZ culture on the tv, DD. Not my cup of tea. I like it wet and cold and windy
And another reason, all my family and relatives went there thirty years ago. I know it's a big place, but I might bump into them somewhere. I like having a nice big planet between us.
But that is interesting about the 300,000. Are they required to do the work then, while you guys lay on the beach ?
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Most Aussies don't like on beaches in mid summer wolf. You remember that saying about mad dogs and Englishmen - you got it. Yep, that's those lobster-red eejits lying out on the beaches at Bondi and Manly at midday in the middle of summer. All parading round on the streets p*ssed with pommy flags wrapped around them and santa claus hats on.
They're the ones we'll be getting to sign the forms no doubt.
By the way, if you're gettin your dose of Oz culture from British tv, you don't think that might be just a tad skewed do you?
It is not mandatory to go to the pub and vomit all the way down the street. It's the poms on the beach in summer who end up doing that.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Why do poms like to eat fish and chips on the beach?
That's very funny. What, are you trying to make yourselves feel better that you're got the fish on the beach eatin it, rather than you being in the water and the fish eatin' you.
Yer a lot of funny b*st*rds, you know that?
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I bet the Aborigines used to complain about immigrants.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The poms didn't give 'em much chance to do that did they?
The British Army in Sydney in the early days used to round up the local indigenous people and make them watch the hangings at Sydney Cove. This absolutely horrified and terrified the natives obviously. They had never seen this sort of barbarity before.
The British armed forces didn't ever take complaints too well did they.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Then they'd give them booze to make them feel better.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Can you imagine what it must have been like as an indigenous person in Australia when the Brits arrived.
They arrived in the middle of summer (as usual!), over-dressed in tight-fitting funny blue outfits with long white budgie smugglers on. Sluggos, you know.
Even though it was very hot, the ones with the funny blue hats came ashore on the backs of the ones in the stripey dacks. Two men didn't do that sort of thing in Australian indigenous society, so it's a shock to start with.
Then they get ashore and within days the ones with the blue hats and ballet dacks are hoisting up the other ones on ropes around their necks and over the branches of trees so they're kicking around until they're dead. It is obvious now that this is not going to be a very friendly barbeque.
Then other ones have to take their shirts off, probably because it is very hot, and they want to go for a swim and what happens. The blue guys tie up the ones without the shirts to trees and flog all the skin off their backs. (I guess they don't like swimming.) *Then* they throw salt water on them.
That's a very strange way of doing things isn't it.
I think I'd just politely smile and walk away from this particular bunch of psychopaths.
Where were they from again?
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, I guess the Brits did more of that sort of thing than anyone else, but look at the Spanish and Portuguese in S. America. And the Europeans in N. America. I read somewhere that the reason Japan tried to shut iself off from the rest of the world (until forced to open to trade by the USA) was because they got news of how the Europeans treated the Americas, way back.
The nightmare of history...
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
They say satire died when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace prize.
So, it is OK to dislike immigrants as long as you are not a "brit"?
In answer to the question "Where did they come from" I think it is safe to say that large numbers of Brits came from Ireland, Munster in particular.
And Munster are still like that, as Toulouse may well discover.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Ah, now don't be tryin to re-write history bb.
The vast majority of Brits came from England.
Anyway the best thing that can happen to Brit emigrants is to come to Australia and sit on the beach, and let the heat burn all the cr*p out of them and get sensible.
Then sit 'em up and learn some ITM, drink some cold beer, and think how lucky they are to be out of the rain.
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I was talking about British soldiers.
Or was that just the Generals who gave the orders!
And do not try to engage me in a discussion about Irish History.
Mr Myers tried that, and came off second best.
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
There's a full list of people, including marines who came on the first Brit ships to Australia. There isn't one Irish name among them.
What are you like on Australian history?
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Absolute boll##ks.
You know as much about history as I do about nuclear physics.
And Australia doesn't have a history.
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I mean, Kitchener, as in "Your country needs you" doesn't SOUND too Irish. You would have needed to hear him say it with his Kerry accent.
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Drink Aussie beers - what? is that supposed to educate them? Well, I guess it might, depends in what direction you mena, but all the ozzie beers I've had have been pretty poor - Aussies seem to drink anything that's cold, wet and fizzy and call it beer. Bleeuurgh!
Someone mentioned the fact that there's 60million Brits stuck on 1 and a bit islands, compared with Australia - ha - do you realise that Australia is actually the most urbanised culture in the world (except a few places like Singapore)? Australia may be vast, but if you live in a city there, are you really getting away from anything that you might have fled in Blighty?
Worth thinking about as well - Australia probably has the most significant water shortage / wastage issues in the world. The Murray Darling system is being pumped into a trickle to irrigate cotton and rice crops (wtf?).
Hey I don't mean to bash our Aussie mates, but some things are seriously screwed up there....
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Australia may be vast, but if you live in a city there, are you really getting away from anything that you might have fled in Blighty? (brown creeper)
Are you kidding? You've got to be a New Zealander, haven't you? NZ is probably the most wannabe pommy places in the world after pommieland - and even some of pommieland wishes it wasn't, no doubt.
And so where has all the water got New Zealand. People can't stop getting out of the place. Why would that be?
And if you want to visit a quant museum-piece sort of a place and take a step back in time to show your kids what the world used to be like - New Zealand is the place for you.
What's *new* about it?
Not meaning to bash NZ though. And the sheep jokes! I don't even go there.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Kitchener didn't have anything to do with Australia, bliss. What planet are *you* on?
He was one of those poms responsible for the Gallipoli massacre. Idiots.
Ahm, that’s about 120 years after the poms arrived in Australia. Relatively very few Irish soldiers or civilians in the early days of Australia. The pommy New South Wales corp, led by John Macarthur a sheep-raising establishment pom here, actually toppled the Governor (even though it was William Bligh of the mutiny on the Bounty fame), and then ruled as a military junta and substituted rum for currency - because they controlled the rum. The got kicked out when Lachlan Macquarie arrived with his own troops - the Buffs - and they were a Scottish regiment, as was Macquarie. Only then did things start to get better.
Australia has a fine history as everyone knows. Never fought a war between ourselves, and didn't even have to fight the poms to get rid of them, like the yanks did. We just talked them out of it, reminded them of how hot it is, and how long it takes to get here, and they started feeling sick and just went home. Easy.
But Australia's finest contribution to the world is that grand pastime we have each Christmas called "Floggin the Poms" (that includes the kiwis) - that'd be 'cricket' to you.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Ah-hem, bliss, if you want to know about the Irish in the British Army, and speak about it with a bit of accuracy, you need to read about the Penal Laws in Ireland first. Here you are, you don't even have to go searching for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws_%28Ireland%29
“Catholics barred from holding firearms or serving in the armed forces (rescinded by Militia Act of 1793)”
That would cover what percentage of the Irish population at the time? 99.9%?
The Brits arrived in Australia in 1788 – five years before the law was repealed. So the only Irish soldiers on the first fleet, if there were any at all, would have been English planter families.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Still going on in here, eh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Bu4Hm4ykg
[adjusted for topic]
Now if it wasn't legal then the lawyers they would sue
And the prisons would be full of folk who smoked a blunt or too [and they are!]
And if they didn't like it then away the girls would run
And if it wasn't plenty then the poor folk would get none
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The penal laws applied to dissenters, not just Catholics. That's the type of thing Mr Myers used to point out. That's what led to the 1798 rebellion, dissenters, or Presbyterians if you like, having money but no rights, and decided to try and get some political power.
No matter what religion you were, if you took the King's shilling and enlisted they gave you a weapon.
Kitchener was 65 in 1915, you will find he is more noted for campaigns in the Sudan and the Boer War.
During the First World War he was continually ignored by his cabinet colleagues. You will find one Winston Churchill had more to do with Gallipoli.
As for New Zealanders always leaving the country, I was in Australia once, and the residents loved it. Admittedly Earl's Court is the only part of Australia I have visited.
And please send me more history lessons. According to some newspapers, and Kevin Myers, my position as Ireland's leading historian is allegedly under threat from Doctor Eamon Phoenix. Now Eamon was in my class at school, but neither teachers nor fellow pupils would have had Eamon (or Fiendish as he was called) anywhere near me when it came to history.
And I see I am making some strides in this discussion. At first you claimed there were no Irishmen in the British Army in Australia, now in it a few. By the end of the week the majority will probably be from Ireland.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Lovely story by the way Duijera Dubh in your profile, but Fear Gorm is the Irish for blackman. I know Gorm is blue, but it is still fear gorm.
Still, a lovely story which sounds plausible.
# Posted on May 20th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The word theorised by the PhD candidate is black piper, not black man isn't it.
Did you actually read the history lesson, bliss?
I would find Churchill had more to do with Gallipoli would I? That's about the first thing anyone who knows anything about it knows. Kitchener was in the Sudan and Boer War - you don't say! You were in Australia once? That I can believe.
Irish soldiers in the first fleet I was talking about. You can shift the goal posts if you like.
And bliss, hate to tell you this - had an ancestor on the first fleet myself. (They weren't all convicts either before you haste to tell me they were.) He was a pommy through and through. Having been a member of that august body the first fleet association, have seen loads of information and lists and articles on it over the years.
It was a very pommy contingent I can assure you. Tell people here it was an Irish outfit and you'd be laughed at as an eccentric.
But hey, if you're Ireland's leading historian...well, God help you I suppose, because it certainly isn't apparent from what you're writing.
I suppose you'll be trying to tell us that the pommy cricket team that comes out here and then has to be institutionalised for psychiatric treatment when they get back there after getting trounced time and time again, are mostly Irish, so you can blame it on someone else !
For your information, too, bliss, the word didgeridoo isn't an indigenous Australian word. Indigenous Australians know that too. It's been researched, I'm not just making it up as I go along. Historians shouldn't do that, should they.
The word is acknowledge by indigenous experts too to be one manufactured by a pommy missionary, but hey, it could have been the Irish connection according to that PhD's theory.
What's fear gorm got to do with it? Read things carefully, bliss, twice even.
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Black piper, black man, black dog, black coat, black car, the word BLACK is the important word here.
Black piper in Irish? Gorm, not dubh.
Kitchener doesn't SOUND Irish, if one was merely reading a list of names and trying to distinguish Irish people. Neither does Wellesley.
I didn't say ALL of the British soldiers were Irish, you are clutching at straws here. A large number were Scottish and Welsh.
If you are a non native Irish person, well you had best be J. Bowyer Bell if you are pontificating on Irish history.
As for cricket, a game played by 8 nations in the world, well, I don't know much about it. Murailataran or something like that from Sri Lanka is the best bowler ever, especially spin, the West Indies circa 1970s and 80s the best team ever, and Australia are quite good, but do a lot of wingeing and macho posturing, until they meet Freddie Flintoff.
I suppose I would still be a West Indies fan at heart. Mind you, anyone beating England are to be welcomed, at any sport.
Pity the Australians have a wimpish Rugby Union team, always getting steam rolled by the hated poms.
And PHD's are two a £12,000 over here, in Ireland, which if you look at an atlas, or google earth, you will discover is not in England.
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
You go very close to saying that the pom army was largely Irish. That's certainly the impression you are giving.
You go even closer to inferring that you're such an astute historian. Unfortunately the impression you're giving on that score isn't anywhere near so convincing.
Yes, we know that Arthur Wellesley was of the protestant ascendancy class system and born in Ireland.
I had ancestors that lorded it too, bliss. But hey, I won't bore us both with that detail. But I would say that there would be a very good chance that I'm able to trace my antecedents in those islands a good way back further than you.
Gee, bliss, PhDs are so affordable you should go and get yourself one, or two. Start with one for history. You need it, mate.
Mate, you go right ahead and spent the rest of the day moving the goalposts eh when you don't like the answers you get.
If I'm not there, you can continue without me.
Beautiful day here. Can't waste it.
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Already have one in History, Irish history that is. Looking at politics now, as the masters is Irish Studies, (politics, sociology and social policy the options).
Traditionally, lots of Irish in the British army, still are today.
Was it the rugby comment that caused the pain?
# Posted on May 21st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
No pain at all, bliss.
The Australian rugby team as whopped the poms enough times in the past to go down in history - Australian history that is, even if the poms want to cover over the carnage. Rugby Union is a low-profile genre here, not many people are interested in it. It's always been viewed as a bit toffy and pommy for real people.
Gee, bliss, those PhDs are cheap aren't they! Maybe get a few more. Then you can probably do one online from a University in Australia that actually teaches you something. Won't be cheap though, like there as you say. I guess you get what you pay for eh.
Try getting one on Australian history if you want to comment upon it. They will start by telling you that Kitchener had nothing to do with the arrival of Brits in Australia. You apparently didn't know that. The Brits got here in 1788, bliss, in case you didn't know, not in 1888. The French got here a couple of days later.
Of course, indigenous Australians have been here for - well, they're still finding the earliest time - but it looks like at least 40,000 years, but maybe double that.
And you said Australia doesn't have a history, I think. Hmm, better get that PhD before you go making those sort of comments.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Bliss you've done this guy some serious harm.
He obviously didn't read any of my disclaimers that i posted on here.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Don't flatter yourselves, jfiddler.
Everyone knows that poms can't damage Australians.
Many have tried, many have failed.
Oh, sorry, does living in Ulster make you a pom?
whooo...hoooo!
That should bring out the historians in some people, eh.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Isn't Bliss from Northern Ireland? I think Scots, N'orn Irish, and Welsh would be less than impressed to be called "poms."
At any rate, recruitment into the British army from the Scottish population was enormous. During the Napoleonic Wars, for instance, the Highlands supplied about 74,000 men for the regiments. When the '98 Rebellion broke out in Ireland, 10 of the 13 British regiments were Scottish. I don't have numbers for Scottish regiments in Australia but certainly they were there. Additionally, more than 17,000 Highlanders were "assisted" by landowners in emigrating to Australia and Canada during the famine years of the 19th century. About 4000 had settled in New South Wales by the mid-1830s and then in the worst years of the famine, 16,500 were forced to move there. And.... during the Gold Rush of the 1850s, 90,000 Scots went to Australia. More went to North America as it was easier to get to, but nevertheless Australia got substantial numbers.
Then there was transportation. Unfortunately I don't have numbers off hand for those (the numbers above were cited from T.M. Devine's book, The Scottish Nation, which happened to be on my desk) but in my work I look at 19th century Scottish court cases and by far, transportation was the most common sentence until it was prohibited in the 1870s.
BTW, the first Labour Prime Minister in Australia, in 1908, was Andrew Fisher from Ayrshire.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Oh, ta, silver. Why do you guys presume that Australians don't know these things?
You missed out that some of the leaders of the '98 attempted revolution in Ireland (I call it a attempted 'revolution' rather than a rebellion), were transported to Australia and that there was a similar uprising here not long after. Did you know that some of those people became influential citizens and politicians in Australia? Do you know about the Catalpa rescue? I guess not. The fact is that when you are talking to Australians you are in many cases talking to the descendants of the people you are describing. I know that sounds obvious, but people there seem to overlook it. And as strange as it might seem to you, many of us know our own history (and maybe even your own) better than you do.
Where the bloody hell do you think many ancestors of Australians came from? Mars?
Yes, Andrew Fisher was a pom, and primarily he was an Australian. (Ahm, notice he migrated. He and that group were instrumental in getting rid of the pommy government from here.) You see, the yanks had have recruited some poms to get rid of the poms, they wouldn't have had to fight a war to get rid of 'em, would they. Would have saved a lot of trouble.
You might find this a bit uncomfortable, but most of the world wouldn't draw a distinction between Scots English Welsh, - if you are in the 'politico-geographic' sphere of England, you'd be regarded as poms. Most people would think that if you speak English, especially if you live in those islands, you are poms.
I know that is hard to live with, but it seems to be the case.
My sympathies.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I was taking issue with characterizing the Army as English, when in fact it was made up of Scots and Irish as well.
I'm aware that the Irish rebels (as well as dissidents in Scotland) from the '98 rebellion, as well as subsequent risings in 1803, 1830, 1848, and 1867 were transported. That wasn't the point. You were talking about the "Brits" and "poms" arriving in Australia, so I was pointing out that more than English people emigrate to Australia.
As far as your last point goes, who are these "most people?" Have you spoken to "most people" and therefore can say with certainty that "most people" regard the population of these isles as "poms," regardless of which country they're actually talking about?
By the way, I'm American.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I was also reminding you that the heritage of most white Aussies is English, Irish, Scottish, or Welsh. Which you know yourself but you're still happy enough to have a go at "poms" (a label under which you yourself admit you lump England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, and Wales).
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The advantage of living in a multicultural country and speaking over many years with migrants from just about every country in the world, is that you get a fairly good representative sample of what people in the world think. Statistical extrapolations do work you know.
We do actually know that more than the English emigrated to Australia. Yes. Those people are us actually.
The point I was making is that the very first "Brits" to arrive in Australia were actually English. For better or worse, that is the case. It is next to eccentric at best to try to give any other impression. It would also actually be a very sensitive cultural and political issue in Australia in the present day.
To indigenous Americans it would be like saying that the first colonists in Jamestown, Virginia were Russians, for example.
Does that illustrate the point?
By the way, I have heard it said by migrants to Australia in passing conversation that Ireland for example is simply part of England. It is a very common perception. As far as Scotland and Wales millions of people haven't even heard of them.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, silver, you see - we aren't poms. To us (and most of the world, I wager) poms live in Britain - and the pommy Army is pommy. Saying that "white Aussies" must be poms, is about the same as saying that "white Americans" are.
And for my part, I wouldn't ever equate "white" with being English, Scottish, Welsh, or Irish. It isn't the case anyway, but it also has a racist connotation. What is "white" anyway?
Does "white" come from Russia, Germany, Scandia, Italy, France, and any other place for that matter.
Have fun with that one won't you.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
When you say the first "Brits" to arrive in Australia, do you mean to settle there or to visit (a la James Cook and Joseph Banks)?
If you mean settle and if you're going to get really picky about it, there were a few members of the First Fleet who were actually Scottish.
If you mean earlier English explorers, I think it was likely some of the crew on the Endeavour was from a country that wasn't England.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
The context further up in the thread was about the first fleet.
(You don't need to tell me much about James Cook and Joseph Banks, either silver, so don't worry about that.)
I would think it would be fairly picky actually to say that there were "a few" Scottish members of the first fleet, or that it was "likely" that some crew on the Endeavour weren't from England.
Does that mean to imply that the fleet wasn't a pommy one?
If it does, I think that is called "moving the goalposts" . A handy strategy for trying to shift blame onto others.
The pommy army was a pommy army, not an Irish one, or a Scottish one - or a Jewish one, just because there might have been one or other of people of that background in the group.
Pull the other one.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
And poms doesn't have a racist connotation? I lived in Australia for a year (so I'm not completely ignorant of the country) and I only ever heard that word used to refer to English people in a derogatory manner.
Yes, "white" Americans generally come from a Northern or Eastern European heritage. My point was that most "white" Australians, especially those whose families have been in the country for a few generations, come from the British Isles. Australia didn't get the mass Eastern European immigration in the nineteenth century that the US did. I never said that Australians ARE English.
Just because "most people" have never heard of Scotland or Wales or believe that Ireland is a part of England doesn't mean you, being wordly and multicultural, need to continue the practice of painting the very distinctive cultures of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales (they all even have their own languages) with one very broad and messy nosological brush.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
If you really want I can give you the names of several soldiers and sailors on the First Fleet who were Scottish or Irish. I just wasn't bothered since this is thesession.org, not a PhD thesis.
Of course it's the British Army and of course the fleet was a British fleet and transportation, of course, was a policy created by the British Parliament. But that's political affiliation. When you say the first settlers in Australia were English, do you mean that they were affiliated politically with the British government. In that case, yes, I agree. If you mean that they were all actually from England, then I disagree.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
That's the way, silver, a bit of spirit. Good person. We want thinking caps on don't we, not tin foil caps.
The term "poms" has about the same connotation, in my understanding anyway, as "yanks". I've actually had a pom try to tell me that "pom" really means "Prisoner of Mother England" (POM), and that really means Australians! Now, that is really trying to move the goalposts isn't it. It must be a pommy pastime.
And so what if you were able to give the names of some "non-English" people on the first fleet. There are also reports of at least one person of Carribean background. So? The list of people is thought to be not even complete. But it is the vast majority, and that vast majority was English, from England, including the marines.
Yes, silver, do go ahead and tell the names of the Scottish and Irish soldiers and sailors on the first fleet. You realise of course there were only two British naval vessels, the Sirius and Supply, in the fleet, don't you? The others were merchant ships.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
So, let us recap. People who speak English are "Poms". Australians sort of speak a kind of English, are they "Poms"? Is this all about self hate?
I never said Kitchener was in Australia, I said he was Irish, too much sense to go to Australia.
I did say that a lot of the army in Australia were Irish. You are now agreeing with me, as you think "Poms" are anyone who speaks English, especially people from Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. Most normal people believe the term "Pom" applies to the English.
And a little tip. When you are in a hole, stop digging. Liable to find yourself in Australia otherwise.
You should just admit you were wrong, nothing wrong with that.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Nice, avoiding addressing the point of this argument, which was your assertion that "poms" refers to anyone from England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, and why? Because "most people" (where? in Australia? I can't imagine everyone in Oz is that ignorant) can't tell the difference between those four countries, so therefore it's obviously reasonable to use the same slightly derogatory term for all of them. And for that matter, to label the first settlers in Botany Bay as "English" because they were operating under the directive of Parliament and yeah, most were from England but you yourself agree not all.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I have just read all of this. Mr Black or Dubh, early on states there were no Irish people in the original British army in Oz. He quotes a list he has.
Now he says there were loads of Irish but they are "Poms", and also says the lists are not complete.
Why do I bother trying to educate the unwashed. The man is a fool, talking about beating England at cricket. Yea, that's really going to upset the Irish, Scots and Welsh?
What an idiot. But he could be very young, so I forgive him, although I normally hate stupidity.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Being from Oz, I'd like to dissown him. Being from Irish/ scotts heritage, I'd like to thump him. He is right in asserting that the first fleet was mainly composed of English prisoners. However, there were some Irish and scots. There were no Irish POLITICAL prisoners untill much later on. And to call John MacAuther, a Scot effected by the highland clearances, a Pom, is plain stupid. Also very dangerous. He'd better be careful if he meets my wife, she'll give him a right thrashing. That family is very proud of their heritage.
And I don't know were in Australia the term Pom means English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh. I've only lived here for 48 years, and my family for 5 generations, but it's news to me.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by blah
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I don't think a single person from 1798 was deported to Australia. Some of the Fenians in the 1860s were.
Mr Dubh claimed the entire army was English, not the prisoners.
Well we thought he did, they could have been Nigerian "Poms". They do speak English in Nigeria.
I apologise for being slightly rude earlier, but there was severe provocation. As an Irishman, I dislike being called a Pom.
I know how your wife feels, blah.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: pommes de terre...
bring back Harold Larwood...
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
LOL, you guys are swarming like wasps.
Without going into too many details of why bliss has got it wrong - again - doesn't Ulster say it is British? If that is the case, you run a severe risk of being labelled poms.
Bliss, to answer your assertions in order:
1. No
2. No
3. No.
Silver, to answer yours - the first fleet to Australia was vastly and overwhelmingly English - from England. If you don't believe that, don't take my word for it, do some research, rather than just keep regurgitating your own views.
Biggus - LOL. Harold Larwood migrated to Australia, you did know that didn't you? Harold got shafted by the poms for bodyline when he was only under orders from the toffs, so he came to Australia where he lived the rest of his life. He wouldn't have been regarded as a pom here.
Which is a very similar situation, bliss, to the 1798 uprising.
So you don't think even one person from 1798 was transported to Australia do you.
Not even Michael Dwyer, the Wicklow Chieftain, one of it's leaders? Ahm - I thought you said you had a PhD in Irish history. Ah well, you did say they were cheap there didn't you. You get what you pay for I suppose, eh bliss. Talk about digging holes you can't get out of, bliss.
Poms can be so funny sometimes.
Michael Dwyer (1772 – 1825) was a United Irish leader in the 1798 rebellion and later fought a guerilla campaign against the British army in the Wicklow Mountains from 1798-1803. In December 1803 Dwyer finally capitulated on terms that would allow him safe passage to America but the government reneged on the agreement holding him in Kilmainham Jail until August 1805, when they transported him to New South Wales (Australia) as an unsentenced exile.
Dwyer had arrived in Sydney on 14 February 1806 in the Tellicherry and was given free settler status. He arrived with his wife and two eldest children. He was given a grant of 40.5 ha (100 acres) of land on Cabramatta Creek in Sydney.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dwyer
If you don’t believe that, here’s a picture of his monument and grave in Sydney.
http://www.62infantry.com/Michael_Dwyer.shtml
Michael Dwyer died on 23rd August 1825 and was buried in a local cemetery. He was later re-interned in Waverly Cemetery in New South Wales, where 200,000 people attended the ceremonial unveiling of the grave and monument to him in 1898.
His descendants are still here, bliss, I have worked with one. A cousin of mine also actually wrote a book about Michael Dwyer– he really is an historian.
Ok, bliss, over to you. Quick push those goalposts over to the other side of the field!
Bliss, you aren't what we call a 'bush lawyer' here are you.
They are usually older gentlemen who put themselves forward as authorities on this or that, and have just enough information to get themselves into trouble, but not enough to get themselves out again.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
and the Amish refer those that are not Amish as "English"
(just thought I'd throw that in...)
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wyogal
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
"Them English", I think, wyogal. They might have a good point to make there, wyogal, yes. You can take the "man out of England" but sometimes you can't take the "England out of the man". Certainly the Amish seem to think so.
Australians don't do that though, wyo, we would feel a bit ungenerous. We only talk about poms who live in Britain.
Ireland isn't part of Britain, so we don't call them poms.
Northern Ireland....hmmm, they don't get off scot-free.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
So, the Amish call everyone who isn't Amish, 'english', wyogal ? How interesting. I didn't know that. We Welsh call the English 'Saeson', cognate with Saxon and with Scots 'Sassenach'.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Wyo might have meant that the Amish call people who aren't Amish and speak English as "the English".
"The English name "Wales" originates from the Germanic word Walha, meaning "foreigner,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales
Wolfbird, does this mean that the Welsh are actually foreigners, and we shouldn’t call them poms?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
What wyogal means is: if they ain't "us", we'll call them something that defines them as "them" regardless of individual distinctions that are within the "them" subgroup
; p
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wyogal
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Interesting they don't them "them French" though, isn't it.
I'm not so sure they aren't making a distinction between "them English" and everyone else, wyo. I mean, who wouldn't!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Yes, wyogal, you beat me to it. I was working around to the idea that all people have their 'Other', and they usually project whatever they don't like (often about themselves) onto that Other. I believe it's to do with the social construction of identity.
DD, I do find it interesting that these names of peoples, going back more than a thousand years, still get used. The Welsh call their country Cymru, not Wales. The English are viewed as almost as foreign as the French or the Germans. But, personally, I find nationalism repugnant. I like to treat each individual as I find them, rather than lump them together into some tribal entity. My personal identity is defined by larger parameters than some arbitrary geographical location and historical accidents.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Very nice, wolfbird.
I won't think of, or call you a pom then. I can't speak for the rest mind.
I thought "Cymru" meant something like 'our compatriots' or somesuch. I would have thought a nice name for Wales might have been Prythonia or the like, as in p-celt Briton.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
And of course, wolfbird, being "foreign" has nothing to do with nationalism has it?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I don't really care how you think of me, DD, or what you call me, because it doesn't make any difference. Wolfbird is fine
Yes, some people say that 'the Cymru' means 'the comrades', or stems from an old word with that meaning, but I have read that is not correct, being a fanciful 19th.C invention, so I'm not sure of the origin.
I think a nicer word for England is Albion. But the Welsh call Scotland 'Alban'. What that means, I don't know.
I have to use the concepts of 'foreign' and 'nationalism', because they are the common currency I've inherited, but IMO, we are all just people on a planet, confused and trapped by a whole lot of nonsense and detritus left over from history.
Why the Welsh should have a grudge against the Saxons, I really don't understand, because both Saxons and Welsh were conquered by the Norman French.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Alba means 'white', wolfbird. Latin. The Romans probably gave it that name. Just like the picts. That's more common currency concepts you've inherited.
So it doesn't matter if I call you a pom then, wolfbird? You know, if I was to make an exception for you, you never know where that will end up. A dangerous precedent.
"I have to use the concepts of 'foreign' and 'nationalism', because they are the common currency I've inherited," -
Hmmm, wolfbird, that's sounds to me a bit on the dodgy side, and a bit of an out for wanting to reject nationalism but still wanting to keep thinking of others as 'foreign'.
And the Norman French didn't speak English did they, wolfbird.
Unforgiveable. At least those good old Saxons did eh. They couldn't have been all bad.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Oh, and blah, Macarthur was born in England and joined a pommy regiment which just missed out on fighting the yanks in the American Revolutionary war before coming to Australia and getting involved in fights with the pommy government, who put him on trial and tried to transport him back to England.
He then jointly led the pommy army in a putsch that arrested the pommy governor.
So you'd like to give me a thumping would you and your wife would like to thrash me. What makes you think you'd get a chance to do that anyway. But thanks for putting that in writing mate.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
"And the Norman French didn't speak English did they, wolfbird"
Eh? You seem a bit muddled, DD. Much of the English that you and I are using to communicate IS Norman French...
Obviously I use the term 'foreign' where it is appropriate. What I don't do, is decide whether I like or dislike people, or anything else, because they are labelled 'foreign'.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I know that alba means white in Latin, DD, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's the same word as Albion or Alban. I think the name goes back to Ptolemy who made a map of these islands.
It is possible, of course, that Albion is linked to alba. I'd make a wild guess and say that the 'foreigners' arriving by the shortest route, Calais to Dover, would be impressed by the white cliffs, but, rather interestingly, 'Dover' derives from a Welsh word for water, dyfr. That was, presumably, the name the place had when the Welsh owned England, before the arrival of the Romans. So people would say " I'm going down to the water", meaning they were going to embark on a voyage across the sea to France. And some dumb foreigner heard 'dyfr' and thought it was the name of the place. Maybe ?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I just love it the lengths that some poms go to move goalposts. It is intriguing, but very entertaining.
English was a very second class language to the Normans. French was the language of the ruling classes for centuries there. English is a conglomeration of influences, but it is primarily English - not Norman French.,
You guys are great craic.
I can buy the dyfr/Dover theory though - but I wouldn't pay you a lot for it, mind.
"dumb foreigners", bliss, is it. So you use "foreign" when it's appropriate do you - like when you want to call someone "dumb". Does that include Irish people?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Like I said, DD, I have to use the terms I've inherited. I'm not personally responsible for the muddle that is called 'English'.
For example, I don't understand your references to 'goal posts', because I'm not playing football. I don't even like football. Why would people pay money to watch the same thing over and over again ? Beats me.
BTW, I gather that the Irish - and I'm happy to defer to the erudition of Mr. Bliss on this, not having the advantage of a Ph.D. in Irish history - call a section of their population 'Old English', when they were, in fact, Norman French and Welsh invaders.
Perhaps you're descended from that ancient stock yourself, DD, for all I know. Perhaps you're more Welsh and French than you realize ?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
You don't actually *have* to use the terms you've inherited. Dare to be different, wolfbird.
You don't have to be playing football to be moving goalposts.
I am sure I am descended from a few ancient stocks, wolf. All of the above actually, French as well laterly - ibut also ncluding a certain chief justice of the marches in henry viii's time. Ludlow, of course.
The old boy is buried under an effigy in the church there.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
You mean make up my own new language, DD ? How do you know I havn't ? The only problem, as Wittgenstein pointed out, you wouldn't understand, so, alas, I'm obliged to use vernacular english.
Well, you see, that ancestor of yours probably met an ancestor of mine. Of course, if he was merely a chief justice, he'd have had to doff his cap to mine, because mine were aristocrats.
Tell me then, why use the goalposts metaphor ? How do I score a goal on a web forum ? Where's the ball ? You'll be telling me next that the playing field isn't level...
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: presuming pommes d'err...
'Harold Larwood migrated to Australia, you did know that didn't you? '
yes,and even about mr jardine too.
indeed,i enjoyed an old australian series about the bodyline tour(from the '80s,i think.)
to continue in the spirit of patronising presumption though...
'doesn't Ulster say it is British?'
well,some of it might...but:
Ulster consists of nine counties,three of which make up part of the republic of Ireland,you did know that,didn't you?
some groups belonging to the loyalist tradition certainly claim to be british and until recently would fight the british on this very point,you did know that,didn't you?
re all this stuff about poms though - i have to say that i prefer 'limey' ,'sassenach' and 'rosbif' to 'pom' but that's just on account of the actual phonetic sound - maybe 'pommy'(pommie?) is better?
anyway,let me give you a big,sloppy kiss for international socialism in the hope it gets you away from your hang up with nationalistic matters.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Vernacular English is it - like "dumb foreigner" as you said.
I know, I know, you can't help it, you've inherited it - maybe something to do with that "aristocrat" you're talking about.
The chief justice was the youngest son, I believe, wolfbird. He probably got a junior posting. The family traces back to 1066 on that line, I understand.
But hey, no need to worry, we're all Australian here now. That's higher than any mere pommy aristocrat. So you better start deferring to your superiors, wolf.
We don't doff caps to anyone, wolf, especially poms, you should know that by now.
You should know the old saying, wolf, surely:
"never give a pom an even break".
We don't.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Oh, biggus, of course I knew all that.
There you go presuming Australians don't know anything about the history there. Many don't. I do.
Look, biggus, I'm actually being very polite, and find it very entertaining, as most Australians do, to see the reactions to this word 'pom'. Let alone 'pommie'. Makes the poms go a nice shade of red doesn't it. LOL.
Now, the Australian vernacular actually is "pommy b*st*rd" , but I haven't gone that far have I.
By the way, Jardine probably wouldn't have been let in. Pompous eejit.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Yeah, DD, I understand...I've watched Neighbours on tv. Once.
I know Aussie culture. Rupert Murdoch and Germaine Greer and Barry Humphries.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/14/australia1
Seems to me you're embarrassed by your own ancestry and try to cover it over with this veneer 'We're all Australians now'. If you didn't have some sort of neurotic complex about it you wouldn't be forever making such a fuss and feeling so threatened by imaginary poms (Whatever they are ? Just some dumb label meaning nothing whatsoever, IMO)
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, I've been to Australia and found them an extremely friendly, laid back, helpful and good humoured bunch of people. Much more so than here in London, and they don't have the same hang-ups about class tathe English do. Culture? What does that mean anyway? How many of us actually experience indigenous 'culture' on a daily basis? I don't know how you can justify your comments if you've never been there. Sad, really.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Also, when Aussies use the term Pom, I think they use it just slightly jokingly, slightly derogatory, kind of p!ss-taking. Not quite the same as the N-word or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, why are you worried, aren't you Welsh?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Are those remarks directed to me, KML ? If so, you seem to have taken them seriously, when they were only intended to tease duijerah dubh.
Given the choice between London and Australia, I'd choose the latter any day, so long as I could avoid cities and bury myself in the outback. You surely don't believe I'd judge Australia by tv or Barry Humphreys do you ? All my family and relatives have lived in NSW for more than thirty years, so I have a clear idea of what Australia is really like, even if I've never been there.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: i presume and you don't...
'There you go presuming Australians don't know anything about the history there. Many don't. I do.'
i see my sardonic humour has fallen on its ar*e so here's yet more big sloppy kisses for you instead!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I'm not worried in the least, KML. If I have to have a label, yes, I'm Welsh. Way back up the thread, DD wanted to include Welsh, Scots, and N. Irish under his label 'pom'.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
wolf, if I was embarrassed by my ancestry I wouldn't have mentioned it would I. I am quite proud of it actually. I have a background from every part of the United Bongdom and significant amounts of European and others just to make life interesting.
Geez, wolfbird, how the mighty have fallen - the descendants of pommy aristocrats veging out in front of Aussie soaps like Neighbours and Home and Away. Although I grew up on those beaches, I actually don't resort to sitting there watching that stuff. It's for poms really.
Germaine Greer, wolfbird - she's lived in pommyland for the last thirty years hasn't she. She'd be a pom now. Can't even spell Kata Juta either. (Kaja Tjuta indeed.) She must be going tooti fruiti. Silly pommy quoit.
KML - 'poms' can be neutral; 'pommy' has a slight p*sst*ke, 'pommy b*st*rd* ' means what it says.
(and we spell pommy with a 'y', not an 'ie' - you don't want to be wasting letters on poms.
biggus - you've just *got* to change that pseudonym. Biggus dave indeed. Biggus Diggus if you're all into digging holes you can't get out of. And if you're into throwing kisses around, maybe Biggus D*...us - well, I'll leave it to you to work out.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Dubh far be it from me to flatter anyone, but i will point out that i know Bliss and he is a man of great self-control.
He has the ability at any minute to walk away from the discussion in the sure knowledge that his opponent will keep checking day after day, month after month to see if he will return.
This causes a steady deterioration in the persons life, losing their job, then partner and eventually turns them to drink in a darkened room driven mad by insomnia keeping a vigil on the mustard pages to see if the blissful one will return to take the field.
The question you should ask yourself.... Do you have the same ability???
By all means carry on chaps but don't say i didn't warn you!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
And KML, you're so right, Australians don't have any hang-ups about class that the poms do. We just know that we're way above any pom.
Oh, really, jfiddler - and how long has bliss been hammering away at the mustard pages? Don't kid yourself, it is his raison d'etre, and the high point of his life.
I just came here originally to get tunes and didn't have anything to do with the discussion forum for years, until I wanted to research something and found it very helpful, but also couldn't help notice what seemed to me to be all the poms chattering on about this or that.
Why is it always the poms? If I had an accent like that, I wouldn't be advertising it.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'poms', 'pommies', 'pommy b*st*rds" - 1,2, 3.
See, it's a class system.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
DD, just to keep the record straight ( I mean, I expect that scholars will be examining the fine detail of this diatribe in years to come, wanting to establish the peculiar nature of contemporary international correspondence and the definition of 'pom') , I did state quite clearly that I saw Neighbours *once*.
Once was sufficient.
Home and Away remains untouched by my attention. Did I miss something important ? Possibly.
Yes, I suppose, if I think about it, I am proud of my ancestry. They built castles and stuff. Nothing like that in Australia is there. Nothing to touch chivalrous knights galloping about, except Ned Kelly with a bucket on his head. Hardly compares with the Arthurian Legends, does it....
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Take my advice, wolf. Don't watch Home and Away, it'll will make you hate the cold rain and grey skies of Old Mouldy and stop you going outside.
Why would Australia need castles, wolf. We build other things.
Knights galloping around the streets would usually get committed to an institution.
Ned Kelly was an Irish Australian who took on the poms against all the odds knowing that he would not win. Knowing you're not going to win is no excuse, as he knew, for not taking the opportunity of hammering the poms. His family was intimidated, bashed, discriminated against and falsely accused by the pommy police mainly because the family was poor and Irish. He was quite eloquent in his address to the court following his sentence. No one remembers the poms involved. People remember the bucket before the poms. It's actually a national icon.
Arthurian legends are probably just that - legends.
Ned Kelly at least was real.
Funny poms.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Yeah, DD, I can see that a bucket would be a suitable national emblem for you, I mean, you've got no water because you've wrecked your climate with all those motor cars. Bucket with a hole in it. Very suitable and appropriate.
I was talking about *proper* history, not some incident with a guy who gets famous because he put a bucket on his head. Proper history is like the church here, built 600 AD.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
There are plenty "churches" and sacred places, wolfbird, in Australia that indigenous people have held so for tens of thousands of years. I have been to them, one in particular in my local area. Gives you a perspective on life that nothing I have been to in Old Mouldy can give.
Leave fixing the water problem to us, wolf. We're actually used to water shortages in case you didn't know. It's a big ocean out there isn't it - well it is here anyway.
That bucket scares the c*ap out of poms, wolf. They usually get sh*tty and abusive about it. Take a close look. Imagine a big Irishman decked out in this clobber lumbering slowly towards you, step by step, guns blazing, your mates dropping around you one by one, and you there blazing away, sweating with fear, and your bullets pinging off that armour... and what did the poms do? They had to shoot him in the foot. Typical pommies.
I told you, never give a pommy an even break. That's the only mistake he made. He probably would have ended up President of an Australian Republic if he hadn't have done that.
Don't be scared now, have a look...
http://www.ironicon.com.au/
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
>>....the poms? If I had an accent like that, I wouldn't be advertising it.
Well, apart from pot calling the kettle black,
I have to ask, in fairness to the poms, which English accent do you mean? There are probably hundreds of English accents. And I mean English-English, those in England. England's English accents are probably more varied than anywhere else that speaks English.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Wut ? They've got stuff like that in the ironmongers shop in the village, DD. Just like that. Old ladies go in there to buy their budgie seed.
Remember, we Welsh invented the longbow. Shot wooden arrows straight through buckets like that, through the head, and out the other side. Remember Agincourt ? That's *proper* history.
Anyway, all I can do is shake my head and mutter words of pity and consolation, DD. I know it's tough being Australian and it's only natural to seek comfort wherever you can get it, but I've got things to do, so I'll have to leave you to mull it all over. Don't get too despondent. Even a bucket with a hole in it, is better than nothing, I suppose, no ?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
KML - all English accents.
Do I remember Agincourt? Propa history, awright! I had an ancestor at Agincourt. Don't remember it myself.
It's fantastic being Australian, wolf. Put your raincoat on now, and off you go then.
Cheers. (If that's the right thing to say to a pom.)
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'It's fantastic being Australian'
shudder
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Stereotyping
Isn't generalizing the qualities of any nation, religion, race etc just a bit old skool?
This discussion has rather a lot of examples ("we, the Welsh", "Typical Pommies"."Australians don't have any hang ups").
Also we ought to have a sweepstake on how many more postings it takes until someone mentions the Third Reich!
What's that mentioning the Nazis rule called?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
What's the matter, Hugo, are you cold?
(Don't mention the war, Krick. There are plenty of Basil Fawltys here for sure.)
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
What a load of sh*te. DD is probably the most racist tosser I've come across for a while. He does not represent the vast majority of Australians, because he doesn't know what he is talking about. And I doubt that he has ever left the country. Just to set the record straight, and yes DD, you ain't the only first fleeter here, Poms means English. It can either be an insult, as in "Go home you Pommy Bastard" ,"You Pommy Bastards couldn't kick a footy if your life depended on it", or it can be a term of endearment, as in " how're you going you Pommy Bastard?"
We call the Scots jocks, the irish Paddy's, the Welsh Leeks, and the Americans Seppo's ( as in septic Tank=yank).
The only exception is when we talk about people from Britain who came out on the 10 pound passage sceme. These are without exception called "10 pound poms" and we don't give a stuff if this is acurate or not. It's just a bit of fun.
And yes DD, Macarther was born in England. His parants escaped there after a little thing called Culloden. Maybe you've heard of it? Then again, maybe not.
Does that make him English? Well maybe it does. But more likely it doesn't. Can you explain why the Macarthers refused to employ anyone except Gaelic speaking Scot's? Mmm, probably because, according to you, they thought of themselves as English.
Mate, you are full of sh*t.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by blah
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
LOL blah. That's a nice Australian accent you've got isn't it.
Been overseas many times, blah, if that's important to you. Know about the other stuff. Thanks for that.
Ok, blah, no problem. You like poms. Good for you.
Yep, I guess it does make Macarthur a pom doesn't it.
Blah's getting angry. Woooo!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
DD - Nope.
I'll explain -
Since you mentioned Basil Fawlty...
Harold Bishop, Ian somethingorother (who once called himself 'The Australian John Cleese'), used to make me SHUDDER - kind of like wretching, but swallowing it down with a squirm.
Watching Neighbours, I found myself going red a few times. Being so embarrassed for someboday. Watching them make a T I T of themselves, and going red. You can do it too DD - fair play.
Is it an Australian thing?
oh look...
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=AqlygK9JvWk
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Never heard of Harold Bishop, Hugo, sorry.
It must have been more stuff made for pommy consumption.
Please don't make me watch Neighbours, Hugo, I've proudly never seen an episode and I don't want to start now.
It's for poms, mate. Big bucks from the poms for it.
This is more drama than the Battle of Britain isn't it.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Ok, I won't mention the war.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17223/comments#comment358133
HAHAHAHAHAH.
what a knob...
I'm going to play Irish music now. In Ireland.
Bye
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Don't buy too many Guinesses, Hugo, you won't be able to pay the rent.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Angry? why the feck would I be angry? Dear oh dear DD, you really have no idea have you mate. I'm guessing that you are a little young, and therefore I forgive you, but maate, you do have your head up your bum. But hey, that's okay. Do us a favour and stop trying to represent all Australians because you don't. Have as much fun as you like giving everyone the sh*t's, but do it as representing yourself. Because me old china, you come across as a flamin'dropkick with a chip on your shoulder when you start crapping on about some of this sh*t.
Peace love and hari krishna..
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by blah
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
flamin' old china plates, mite!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Righty-hoo then, blah, you're not angry it is.
I'd hate to see you in a bad mood.
You not from Queensland by any chance, are you?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Keep digging, DD.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I'm just trying to politely address assertions, KML.
Some people just don't like what they don't agree with.
That's fine.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
"some people don't like what they don't agree with"
i.e. "some people like what they agree with", so therefore "some people" (the different bunch of "some people") do dissagree with what they like.
I'm getting confused!
But if you say it's fine, it must be OK!
Thank you.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
>I'm just trying to politely address assertions, KML
yeah right. Like politely asking if he's from Queensland. Nothing to do with the prejudice about Queensland people being conservative or anything?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Queensland's a fantastic place, KML.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Its called a double negative, not accepted in standard English but common in vernacular English.. Which is a living language. So common expressions from today could become acceptable and standard in the future. U Know Wot I mean... Gr8 eh.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by typo
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Maate,I'll clear up a few "assertions"
Poms means English EXCEPT for ten pound poms! Sorry, always has, always will in Australia.
It is either a term of endearment, or one of abuse. It's all in the context, and reading your threads it comes across as the latter.
And speaking as a typical Australian mongral, I have Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, Spanish and Jewish in my make up. This means I can make bad jokes about most racial groups, and also take offence when someone else tells thems.
Best of both worlds
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by blah
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Where I live "Queensland" is a gay disco.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
There you have it then. Poms is poms.
Good stuff blah.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
LOL Krick.
So I guess you won't be visiting Queensland, Australia any time soon.
Holy dooley!
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Cheers DD, That was a bit of fun. You know, it was just like beating the Poms at cricket. No matter how many times you do it, you just never get sick of it.
And no. I'm not from Queensland eh.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by blah
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Battle of Britain's got nothing on the mustard boards.
World War 3 will probably break out over the use of the word 'pom', I'll bet.
Wonderful language English eh. Lovely people.
Where would the world be without them.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Where would the world be without them.
Under Nazi rule. No joke.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Never mind KML, the yanks would have saved you. Again.
And the Australians would have stepped into the breach again too, like they did in the first world war.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
>Never mind KML, the yanks would have saved you. Again.
I wouldn't be so sure. They only joined in because of Pearl Harbour. And youse, because of Darwin. Apart from that it was Britain and Russia and no-one else.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Darwin!?
Australia joined the war immediately after Churchill's announcement as far as I know.
A lot of people here loved old Winston, don't you know? The generations here up to then really thought they were poms.
My family was no exception, I have to say. Most were the same.
Hopefully everyone knows better now.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I agree. But don't they call Darwin Australia's Pearl Harbour? Although Aus was already officially in the war against Japan, by a few weeks or months or something, Darwin was the spark that got them to really take this business seriously...I think...
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Believe it or not, the Darwin attack was kept fairly hush-hush at the time. The government didn't want to panic the place.
It's argued that the bombing of Darwin was more about sinking British and American ships in the harbour rather than a precursor to an invasion, at least at that time anyway. It's a logistically difficult task to attack Australia at that point and maintain supply. A bit like the Germans in Russia in ww2.
No, I think part of the Aussie army was off to North Africa way before that, and was then called back by the government here when things got bad. Churchill didn't like that. He wanted to keep the aussies over there and if Australia fell, you blokes would come and bail us out. Hmmm. Anyway, they didn't believe it here, so recalled them. The other part of the aussie army was ordered to surrender at Singapore by the aussie govt, and went through hell then on the Burma railway (you know, bridge on the river kwai stuff). Many died horribly.
I think I would rather have fought than surrender and I am sure many of them would have felt the same.
Anyway, they won't be doing that again should a situation ever arise again.
I have just heard back this minute, KML, by the way since you're here, from a distant cousin in Herefordshire who is a meticulous historian, and who has finalised his research into our roots there back to the 1400s or so and back to the Normans before that. But I still won't be tugging my forelock to wolfbird. As if.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Yeah, thanks for the correction on Darwin.
So you're telling me "Dubh" is a Norman surname, then? I wouldn't call that a fine example of Norman Wisdom......
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Nah, KML. My surname is a gaelic Irish name. Old. A real one. Never was a pom on that side, even up to the Revolution, when they on that side over there were in the old IRA.
That was against the poms wasn't it.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Which is a very similar situation, bliss, to the 1798 uprising.
So you don't think even one person from 1798 was transported to Australia do you.
Not even Michael Dwyer, the Wicklow Chieftain, one of it's leaders? Ahm - I thought you said you had a PhD in Irish history. Ah well, you did say they were cheap there didn't you. You get what you pay for I suppose, eh bliss. Talk about digging holes you can't get out of, bliss.
Poms can be so funny sometimes.
says Diujera dubh.
Michael Dwyer, fighting a guerilla campaign in County Wicklow from New South Wales was he?
As EVERYONE, bar your good self knows, Michael Dwyer took part in the 1803 skirmish/rebellion, the one associated with Robert Emmet, 5 years after he took part in the 1798 rebellion. So he was not deported for his role in the 98 rebellion, as I said.
But enough of this. I have contacted a few Ulster poms in Sydney, those who took part in the "troubles" from 1969 to 1994, now living in Oz. They are keen to continue the discussion, especially the bit about them wanting to be British and being "Poms". I suggest you purchase one of those suits that the famous "Pom" Ned Kelly wore. Ned obviously was a "pom", he spoke nglish.
Good luck, you may well need it
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I have now read all of this, and must add a few asides.
Common example of a "Pom". An Englishman who settles in Australia, such as say Harold Larwood.
But DD says Harold is not a "Pom".
To DD, "Pom" seems to be a derogatory term. A word of advice. If you ever meet any new immigrants in Australia from the North of Ireland, please do not call them "Poms", even in jest. People from Ardoyne and Crossmaglen may have a different sense of fun, like disemboweling idiots. Those Old IRA "Poms", from Ulster, the majority since 1969, can be a bit touchy.
As for me? Despite JfiddlerH's confidence in me, I admit defeat. I remember a bit of advice I once heard;"To be reasonable with stupid people can be dangerous, as they are too stupid to be reasonable".
Normally I can cope. But when faced with a zealous, unadulterated , maniacal, fanatical, really worked at for years stupidity, I must admit defeat. No-one could argue with someone whose main sense of pride seems to be that they are the greatest eejit in the world.
There is no shame in walking away from such an onslaught of sheer, crass stupidity.
Thank the Lord I know many Australians, otherwise I may now believe that "Home and Away" is written by the Australian Shakespeare.
As for Winston Churchill? He didn't happen to meet you in 1915 by any chance DD, just before he came up with the Gallipoli plan?
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I am now sitting in a cold sweat.
I used to teach A-level History and was once offered a job in a posh Melbourne school, when I contemplated moving to Oz. Imagine having a class of DD's? I also taught political science. The thought of discussing politics with him, aaarrgggghhhh.
Please, reassure me that he is a one off? If not, I may be considering nuclear options.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Whoa-ho, DD, I hope your local hospital has a good orthopaedic surgeon specialising in the kneecap department.....
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: pomme de eugenics terre alba
DD,the only holes i dig are in my garden.
since you scorn the sloppy kisses of international socialism and seem bent on a peculiar form of snobbery i will have to desist the sloppy kisses lest you think i fancy you and your entire pom free(on one side only,mind) family.
so,,,it's merely the firmest of handshakes in the cause of international socialism for you and consider it your loss that the big sloppy kisses are no more.
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
There's a full list of people, including marines who came on the first Brit ships to Australia. There isn't one Irish name among them.
What are you like on Australian history?
# Posted on May 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
We only talk about poms who live in Britain.
Ireland isn't part of Britain, so we don't call them poms.
Northern Ireland....hmmm, they don't get off scot-free.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
You might find this a bit uncomfortable, but most of the world wouldn't draw a distinction between Scots English Welsh, - if you are in the 'politico-geographic' sphere of England, you'd be regarded as poms. Most people would think that if you speak English, especially if you live in those islands, you are poms.
I know that is hard to live with, but it seems to be the case.
My sympathies.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
And so what if you were able to give the names of some "non-English" people on the first fleet. There are also reports of at least one person of Carribean background. So? The list of people is thought to be not even complete.
# Posted on May 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
I print the above to illustrate that I was not being harsh.
However, Duijera Dubh I have discovered has one talent, he can use google and look up wikipedia.
His entire definition of "poms" is from wikipedia, and he seems to have managed to cut and paste the entire piece of Michael Dwyer from the same source. And he did this all on his own.
And KML, let us hope the lads are in a good mood and you are right about the knee caps. Unfortunately they may well be angry ;- 0
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
This whole "Aussie complex vis-a-vis the English" playing itself out is very cringifying but also strangely intriguing. How embarrassing for the normal, well-adjusted Aussies on thesession.org. The ones I know are being very quiet.
In all my years of living in Australia, I've never ever heard the term "Pom" used in a derogatory way. I've also never heard it used to refer to anything other than the English (apart from the "10 pound Pom" thing of course). Of course there's a first time for everything...
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by Dow
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Hopefully the Wikipedia mention silenced him.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
This is embarrassing - its like a train wreck, I know I shouldnt watch but I just cant help myself.
DD - your comments about the english, welsh and scottish are just insutling
Wolbird - your bitching about Australia is just as bad.
What - are you both 5 years old???
How lame
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I think you took it seriously, bb. I didn't.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
No - I'm a true believer that people shouldnt slag countries off - especially if they have never been there. Especially if I am from said country.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
Well, bb, I think the whole idea of countries is rather daft (btw, are you using the word as synonymous with nation, tribe, ethnic group ?)
The way i see it, there is only this little planet we call Earth. Folks draw lines and put up fences and say 'this bit is mine', 'our bit is better than yours', 'we are superior because we are rich and powerful'. It's all like five year olds playing in a sand pit.
I was just passing some time, pulling Duijerah Dubhs leg. I think he took it in good part ? Sorry if anyone was offended by anything I said. As I said, nowhere was I serious. If anyone wants a serious discussion, I'm willing, another thread, another day.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
I have never, ever, ever heard the word "pom" used to describe Welsh, Scottish or Irish people - and I have only lived in Australia for 30 years. The word Pom is used in reference to English people - usually when talking about sport and usually in a jokey kind of way.
yeah - no worries wolfbird....I get what you are saying
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Kevin Myers praises Irish Traditional Music
'Whatever gets you through the night...', to quote J. Lennon.
# Posted on May 27th 2008 by wolfbird