Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
First off, I know this is not the only thread that has discussed this topic, but as a side note to the "Does The Musc Matter" thread, we got to talking about technology, and I thought it might make for another interesting discussion on the subject.
Technology has helped spread the appeal of playing ITM, of that I think there is no doubt. There are other factors, like Riverdance, etc. But the very existence of this website is something that bolsters that idea. Many of us are steeped in technology with regards to this music. We listen to CDs, we take recording devices to session, we send each other mp3s of tunes to learn, we search the internet for different settings of tunes, we advertise our sessions via email, and we talk to each other (or argue) about the finer points of playing the music.
So do you think this has an overall positive, or negative effect on the tradition?
One school of thought might be that part of what makes this tradition survive is that it is passed on from person to person. Tunes are learned by hearing them played by the older generation. You learned to play it because you grew up listening to it being played, and it was a natural progression. People in other parts of the world had different music, and wouldn't understand the music because it goes hand in hand with the Irish culture. Technology is ruining it by homogenizing it, and Ironing out the regional differences. It is more commercial now, and to make it commercially viable, people are pushing the boundaries of the music to add appeal to people who don't understand the music, so that they can mass market CDs worldwide.
Another school of thought would be that the tradition is alive and thriving with the aid of technology. People anywhere in the world can hear recordings of masterful musicians playing it. It's easier to learn, because we have all of the aforementioned resources, like portable recording devices, tune archives, internet search engines, and interpersonal communication via email. You might even argue that the regional differences in the music are being preserved by the technology, which helps analyze and categorize the differences.
So is the overall effect evened out by the plusses and minuses of the technology?
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Without technology I wouldn't be playing or listening to ITM. I would never have heard my mother playing cassette tapes of it and thus I never would have known I liked it. I never would have been able to download mp3's and movies of people playing so I wouldn't have been able to teach myself how it's played. I never would have found any sessions without the internet either.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I can only speak from the perspective of one who lives amongst the vast diaspora in a place where we have limited access to great players from which to learn. I did not grow up learning tunes at me grandda's knee next to a smoldering Clare peet fire in the 1920's. All I've got is technology and a large stack of CDs and LPs to reference. Without gizmos like Barfly and The Amazing Slowdowner I simply wouldn't have access to much of this material. I don't know how to stop the inevitable homogenization of this music, but passionate participation in it by me and thousands more like me do continue to keep it alive all around the world.
Art for art's sake vs. Art for monetary gain is a separate, and I sure contentious thread....
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
LOL, true...
But my question is whether these are good or bad for the tradition... Is it bad that people are learning it because of the internet? Is it bad that we call it ITM?
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
From a personal perspective, I think technology is great. I wouldn't be where I'm at with my music without it.
But whether it's good for the tradition as a whole, I'm not so sure.
I think if you look at it from the perspective of "what helps the tradition to survive and grow is inherently good for the tradition", then there's no doubt that technology plays a positive roll.
But if you look at things like homogenization of the music as a bad thing, then it would probably be considered a negative roll. (BTW, I think that homogenization isn't inherently bad. There are a lot of good things about it).
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Hmm, interesting question. but the concepts good and bad are relative.I presume you mean in relation to the preservation of our cultural heritage.
Firstly I learnt many of my tunes from my friends around the yog iron. So apart from string technology and instrument manufacturing technology it is not relevant to me as a musician.
However to be able to sit here and have the worlds greatest pipers play for me in my own home, many dead and gone is an incredible blessing. taken for granted by those grew up with this technology.
So I vote positive. we can listen to the old masters and learn.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I think technology must have been an issue ever since people stopped using animal leg bones to make flutes and went over to wood.
I'm sure that questions like Reverend's were asked when musical notation began to be used to record and communicate traditional music.
ITM seems so far to have survived advancing technology and social change. Occasionally it may have even benefited from them. I can't see any reason why it shouldn't continue to do so
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I would agree with the fact that there's always been a push and pull effect on traditional things due to emerging technologies. And recording technology certainly had a profound impact on music. I wonder if the internet has had an even bigger effect... Probably won't know the answer to that until we can look back on it with a bit more perspective.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I'd never have started listening to this stuff if it weren't for CDs, followed by an amplified concert by a band that I still love, but that can hardly be classified as traditional. I suspect that many people in my demographic - Canadian-not-from-the-Maritimes, born in the 70's or later, with no ancestral ties to anywhere within a time zone of Ireland - would be similarly disconnected from this music if it weren't for technology.
I'd wager that one of the main effects of technology on the tradition is that it's exposing the form to adults who were not weaned on this music, and who hence subconsciously bring to their understanding and playing of this music a variety of outside musical influences that inform their styles. (Incidentally, my limited forays into composition have all resulted in tunes that sound vaguely Middle Eastern, which hadn't been my intent when I sat down to write them. I don't know if my playing reflects that influence as well, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised.)
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I am an example of someone that has no ancestral ties to the music, but in my case, it can probably be attributed to Riverdance. I started playing the music because Zina played it when we were married, and she started playing because she was a step dancer. Her dance school probably wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the Riverdance craze.
On a *personal* level, it may have had a hugely positive impact, I love playing the music, and it brings great joy and satisfaction to my life.
But I'm not so sure that the tradition is better off as a whole because you, or I, or anyone else plays the music without being connected to the culture via heritage. I certainly *try* to make it better off, of course.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Reverend,
I vote for technology. However, it begs the question. Despite slow down technology that allows close listening, despite mp3s that allow easy sharing and archiving of tunes, despite flash recorders that have amazing clarity and allow you to repeat function endlessly sections of tunes so you can learn them why is it that at sessions around the world the level of playing isn't particularly great?
You'd think we'd all be quite good players with a great "trad' sound [if that's what we're after in our personal playing] ....AND YET we find ourselves --no matter how good our technology -- often stymied by our own talent or lack thereof.
Maybe technology speeds the process of getting tunes under the fingers, or helps in keeping track of tunes, organizing them, sharing and storing....but in the end, oddly, it's only by hours of slogging on a fiddle and listening and listening that we even begin to sense the elusive nature of this thing called Irish Traditional Music.
I have only been playing this music for nine years and even in that time digital technology in the form of players/recorders and web sites like this and others [eg. sound lantern, you tube etc] have really revolutionized the manner in which i can see and hear players i never could see or hear [or rarely living in toronto].
In a way, it's no longer the "living tradition" it's the living tradition transmitted by the digital one onto my computer. It's filtered. It's still good, but it's still not the Real McCoy.
And, again, at the end of the day, all the digital techno wizardry can't teach us how to listen, how to find that elusive 'nyah'. But it's a good start.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Well, let me clarify my position a bit (although, I am still formulating it as I go along).
Personally, I think the overall impact of the technology has been a positive one. There are certainly some negative aspects of it, but overall, I think it's a positive one. Partially because it has helped nurture people like me, who really do care about the tradition, and I *do* believe that in my own little way, that I have a positive impact.
But in answering your question, mtodd, the technology may help some of us analyze and understand the nitty gritty of the music, but in the same sense, it may also dilute the tradition by making it more accessible to people that don't *care* about playing it well. And you are correct, the technology simply can't replace the hours of playing.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I see what you're getting at, Rev, but must point out that all of the instruments employed in traditional music are themselves the product of technology, no matter how primitive or developed.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
You guys have nailed it. The technology is just another tool to be used. Whether it is used wisely or poorly is up the user. Whether it's going to be combined with dedication and practice is also up the user. At the end of the day, it's just a tool, but a wonderful one, I'd say.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I'd argue that technology might actually contribute to more diversity - here in Portland we have a number of our own homegrown regionalisms, for example the "trying desperately not to sound too much like Kevin Burke" style of playing - and of course there's the exact opposite of that here too.
After relying for years on the slowdowner - and don't forget Transcribe which actually tells you what note is being played - I'm thrilled to be able to pick up a few tunes at speed. Might make my way to SF for some of those popular "on the fly" sessions down there...
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Yes, I think subject covered nicely. And I think this discussion has a long pedigree. Don't some throw around the idea that Coleman's 80-odd high-tech wax and shellac recordings were nothing but a disaster for the tradition?
But then, purists, bless them for their dicipline, are few and far between. The rest of us can indulge the guilty pleasure of having the dog walked by ex-NASA techno-trousers.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Rev said - "...it may also dilute the tradition by making it more accessible to people that don't *care* about playing it well."
I am quite certain those people would exist whether the technology was available or not. Technology only serves to create a much larger pool of both sorts of folks; people who dedicate their lives to it and people who only do it for casual fun.
Technology as such doesn't create the player, the desire or the motivation - only increased access.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Agreed, Eejit. So in some ways, the good and bad cancel each other out.
john carr, how very strange to see you post on the mustard board! But you're right, I hear stories of scores of Sligo fiddlers giving up fiddling after hearing Coleman. But you'll notice that his recordings didn't seem to spawn a whole host of horrible piano backers... So maybe the tradition can fend for itself when dealing with the bad aspects of new technologies
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"fiddlers giving up.." Likely true, but I'm thinking more along the lines of regional and local styles tainted, sullied or otherwise influenced by distant forces only because of the existence of mechanical recording devices - a sort of Coleman's Cross-Pollination.
And by the way, an irish hit squad hunted down all of those piano players and their spawn.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
A fiddler down in Braoghiduinn says he feels it in his soul if the horse whose hair is yanked across any particular bow was ever in its lifetime transported in a trailer pulled by a petrol-powered vehicle.
Once the man senses that the tautened hair of any horse thusly transported is present at a given session, he will at first heave five or six heavy sighs. Then he will pack away his own fiddle and bow, and then he rises—slowly, majestically even. Then BANG! he disappears. And yes, I mean just like that.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
speaking of technology - I was looking around online for a chair pad I saw once at a session that I thought was a not-stick vinyl barrier kind of thing, but now I'm pretty certain it was one of these: http://www.flat-d.com/chairpadblack.html
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"A fiddler down in Braoghiduinn says he feels it in his soul if the horse whose hair is yanked across any particular bow was ever in its lifetime transported in a trailer pulled by a petrol-powered vehicle."
Most horses, especially in UK and Ireland where they don't have many trucks with 5.4 litre V8s, are transported by diesel-powered vehicles so he probably got on okay. Much more traditional than unleaded.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Silver Spear--
All fuels and all post-Leonardo engines offended the man. Yet when I challenged him with the plain truth that a variety of fuels had certainly been burned to bring him his special Saipan-stitched, fart-filtering trousers, he dismissed me with the back of his hand. My lips carried the imprint of my trombone mouthpiece for hours afterwards. Wife greeted me this way: Hey Satchmo! Gumbo and affection followed, so no regrets.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
>>> I'm thinking more along the lines of regional and local styles tainted, sullied or otherwise influenced by distant forces
Yes, but don't you think that it's part of the push and pull, or the general nature of things for this to be the case. Maybe technology just accelerates this phenomenon. In the 70's, it was the Bothy Band and DeDannan that were having that effect. Today, it's Lunasa and Solas, or whomever...
But does the rapid growth of communication technologies in the last decade hinder the overall tradition? Help it? I would vote for both... but I still think overall, it has had a positive effect. Look at all the people in this thread that say that they wouldn't be here if it weren't for the technology. And they are people that seem to care...
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
If it weren't for technology I may never have heard Alan Stivell's harp playing on cassette years and years ago. I would never have heard Martin Hayes' fiddle playing on albums years after that.
If it weren't for cassettes I would not have been able to learn the music myself (playing, stopping, rewinding, playing, etc.) for ten years of half hour lessons and a week full of hours of listening and re-listening and playing over and over again.
Nowadays it's MP3's and minidiscs, etc. of course, but like someone else said these are just tools.
Yeah, regional styles are breaking down, but I guess that's been happening since the advent of the automobile. It's sad in a way, but you can't stop the clock or turn back time.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Does it ever occur to anyone that maybe some people in the 18th and 19th century lamented the demise of the pure-drop tradition with the advent of these new-fangled uillean pipes and fiddles?
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"Does it ever occur to anyone that maybe some people in the 18th and 19th century lamented the demise of the pure-drop tradition with the advent of these new-fangled uillean pipes and fiddles?"
Absolutely! And the changeover from wire harp strings to gut to *gasp* nylon!
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Enjoyed reading this post a lot - am actually doing some research on influence of music technology in development of regional stylisation and performance practises in ITM, so was great to read people's opinions.
My humble opinion on this is that technology is just a tool, it in itself has no detrement to the tradition, it's utilisation is what's really in question. I think technology has had a massively important role within Irish music - case in point is the cylinders and 78s of the 'Golden' period of recorded trad. Guitar and piano, now both part of the purist scene, were introduced into Irish music in this period. The same can be said for commercialism of Irish music - done well it is of benefit. Done distastefully and not in keeping with the tradition, not so beneficial.
Barney McKenna is a prime example of the positive aspects of both recording and commercialism (although if you are not a fan of the banjo, you probably won't agree). He changed the tuning, incorporated technique from fiddle and pipe playing, and chose the instrument (Paragon) that has become the 'holy grail' of banjos within the genre - all from the commercial success of Dubliners records. Very hard to find anyone playing banjo now that hasn't been influenced by him.
I do think the misuse of music technology can be bad, and there are features within the music that make it very easy to play about with it in a non-traditional way. Firstly, it's in binary form - AA BB AA BB AA BB and so on. Therefore, if you make a mistake, all you need to do is look 8, 16 or 32 before or after, and you can cut and paste an edit over the mistake. A LOT of commercial releases of Irish music are way too clean - they've removed all 'mistakes' in the search of 'perfection', but stripped the music of all it's character and, for want of a better word, balls! Also, this binary form and relatively simple chord progressions means it's very easy to put a 'trad' tune on top of an arrangement with an Audio+MIDI sequncer, like Pro Tools. With it fitting in with a click track, you can add drums, bass lines, all kinds of sh*t, and it will fit in well, although musical merit is questionable.
Also compression can screw up recordings as well - some commercial recordings really go for that 'pop' sound, ideal for playing on radio, but the dynamic range of the tune is squeezed out of it, which takes an awful lot from the music.
I must admit, I like my recordings to be a bit rough and ready. Tony MacMahon and Noel Hill - I love the start of that with the people shouting 'Go on boys!'. I love the change into the second tune on track one, the Temple house, and Noel thinks they're playing the tune single, hits the high g, then realises MacMahon's playing the A part again and Hill drops back into it straight away. That to me gives me more insight into Hill and how talented a musician he is.
So I think recording has had a hugely beneficial impact on ITM, but it is a tool, it is it's utilisation that can be dodgy at times.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
''Absolutely! And the changeover from wire harp strings to gut to *gasp* nylon!''
This is different. A wire strung harp of the traditional design is a different instrument to a nylon harp. Just look at the construction methods. A nylon harp is made from number of pieces of wood glued together. A traditional harp is carved from one piece. Precisely so the t when the strings are put on. the tension pulls the instrument into shape. The playing methods are different.
This is an excellent example of the loss of our traditional heritage . The true Celtic Wire strung harp.
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
True Medusa, they are different instruments. (I play harp myself and had a wire harp for a while but I sold it because it was too much for me to learn an entirely new technique as I was also learning fiddle at the time).
I guess though what I meant was that the invention of nylon is an example of technology overtaking, changing, and playing a definite role in the development of the tradition (some may see it as an improvement, others would not).
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Back to Reverand's comment about the "push and pull and general nature of things." That is it, exactly. I'm guessing that, like most human endevours, ITM was and continues to be a wonderfully messy thing.
Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
First off, I know this is not the only thread that has discussed this topic, but as a side note to the "Does The Musc Matter" thread, we got to talking about technology, and I thought it might make for another interesting discussion on the subject.
Technology has helped spread the appeal of playing ITM, of that I think there is no doubt. There are other factors, like Riverdance, etc. But the very existence of this website is something that bolsters that idea. Many of us are steeped in technology with regards to this music. We listen to CDs, we take recording devices to session, we send each other mp3s of tunes to learn, we search the internet for different settings of tunes, we advertise our sessions via email, and we talk to each other (or argue) about the finer points of playing the music.
So do you think this has an overall positive, or negative effect on the tradition?
One school of thought might be that part of what makes this tradition survive is that it is passed on from person to person. Tunes are learned by hearing them played by the older generation. You learned to play it because you grew up listening to it being played, and it was a natural progression. People in other parts of the world had different music, and wouldn't understand the music because it goes hand in hand with the Irish culture. Technology is ruining it by homogenizing it, and Ironing out the regional differences. It is more commercial now, and to make it commercially viable, people are pushing the boundaries of the music to add appeal to people who don't understand the music, so that they can mass market CDs worldwide.
Another school of thought would be that the tradition is alive and thriving with the aid of technology. People anywhere in the world can hear recordings of masterful musicians playing it. It's easier to learn, because we have all of the aforementioned resources, like portable recording devices, tune archives, internet search engines, and interpersonal communication via email. You might even argue that the regional differences in the music are being preserved by the technology, which helps analyze and categorize the differences.
So is the overall effect evened out by the plusses and minuses of the technology?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Without technology I wouldn't be playing or listening to ITM. I would never have heard my mother playing cassette tapes of it and thus I never would have known I liked it. I never would have been able to download mp3's and movies of people playing so I wouldn't have been able to teach myself how it's played. I never would have found any sessions without the internet either.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Without technology, you wouldn't be referring to it as 'ITM' ....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Ottery
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I can only speak from the perspective of one who lives amongst the vast diaspora in a place where we have limited access to great players from which to learn. I did not grow up learning tunes at me grandda's knee next to a smoldering Clare peet fire in the 1920's. All I've got is technology and a large stack of CDs and LPs to reference. Without gizmos like Barfly and The Amazing Slowdowner I simply wouldn't have access to much of this material. I don't know how to stop the inevitable homogenization of this music, but passionate participation in it by me and thousands more like me do continue to keep it alive all around the world.
Art for art's sake vs. Art for monetary gain is a separate, and I sure contentious thread....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
LOL, true...
But my question is whether these are good or bad for the tradition... Is it bad that people are learning it because of the internet? Is it bad that we call it ITM?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
From a personal perspective, I think technology is great. I wouldn't be where I'm at with my music without it.
But whether it's good for the tradition as a whole, I'm not so sure.
I think if you look at it from the perspective of "what helps the tradition to survive and grow is inherently good for the tradition", then there's no doubt that technology plays a positive roll.
But if you look at things like homogenization of the music as a bad thing, then it would probably be considered a negative roll. (BTW, I think that homogenization isn't inherently bad. There are a lot of good things about it).
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I've never heard anyone call it ITM - I've only seen the abbreviation on a computer screen.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Ottery
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Hmm, interesting question. but the concepts good and bad are relative.I presume you mean in relation to the preservation of our cultural heritage.
Firstly I learnt many of my tunes from my friends around the yog iron. So apart from string technology and instrument manufacturing technology it is not relevant to me as a musician.
However to be able to sit here and have the worlds greatest pipers play for me in my own home, many dead and gone is an incredible blessing. taken for granted by those grew up with this technology.
So I vote positive. we can listen to the old masters and learn.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I think technology must have been an issue ever since people stopped using animal leg bones to make flutes and went over to wood.
I'm sure that questions like Reverend's were asked when musical notation began to be used to record and communicate traditional music.
ITM seems so far to have survived advancing technology and social change. Occasionally it may have even benefited from them. I can't see any reason why it shouldn't continue to do so
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I would agree with the fact that there's always been a push and pull effect on traditional things due to emerging technologies. And recording technology certainly had a profound impact on music. I wonder if the internet has had an even bigger effect... Probably won't know the answer to that until we can look back on it with a bit more perspective.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I'd never have started listening to this stuff if it weren't for CDs, followed by an amplified concert by a band that I still love, but that can hardly be classified as traditional. I suspect that many people in my demographic - Canadian-not-from-the-Maritimes, born in the 70's or later, with no ancestral ties to anywhere within a time zone of Ireland - would be similarly disconnected from this music if it weren't for technology.
I'd wager that one of the main effects of technology on the tradition is that it's exposing the form to adults who were not weaned on this music, and who hence subconsciously bring to their understanding and playing of this music a variety of outside musical influences that inform their styles. (Incidentally, my limited forays into composition have all resulted in tunes that sound vaguely Middle Eastern, which hadn't been my intent when I sat down to write them. I don't know if my playing reflects that influence as well, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised.)
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"Without technology, you wouldn't be referring to it as 'ITM' ...."
Brilliant post, Ottery.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Björn
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I am an example of someone that has no ancestral ties to the music, but in my case, it can probably be attributed to Riverdance. I started playing the music because Zina played it when we were married, and she started playing because she was a step dancer. Her dance school probably wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the Riverdance craze.
On a *personal* level, it may have had a hugely positive impact, I love playing the music, and it brings great joy and satisfaction to my life.
But I'm not so sure that the tradition is better off as a whole because you, or I, or anyone else plays the music without being connected to the culture via heritage. I certainly *try* to make it better off, of course.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Reverend,
I vote for technology. However, it begs the question. Despite slow down technology that allows close listening, despite mp3s that allow easy sharing and archiving of tunes, despite flash recorders that have amazing clarity and allow you to repeat function endlessly sections of tunes so you can learn them why is it that at sessions around the world the level of playing isn't particularly great?
You'd think we'd all be quite good players with a great "trad' sound [if that's what we're after in our personal playing] ....AND YET we find ourselves --no matter how good our technology -- often stymied by our own talent or lack thereof.
Maybe technology speeds the process of getting tunes under the fingers, or helps in keeping track of tunes, organizing them, sharing and storing....but in the end, oddly, it's only by hours of slogging on a fiddle and listening and listening that we even begin to sense the elusive nature of this thing called Irish Traditional Music.
I have only been playing this music for nine years and even in that time digital technology in the form of players/recorders and web sites like this and others [eg. sound lantern, you tube etc] have really revolutionized the manner in which i can see and hear players i never could see or hear [or rarely living in toronto].
In a way, it's no longer the "living tradition" it's the living tradition transmitted by the digital one onto my computer. It's filtered. It's still good, but it's still not the Real McCoy.
And, again, at the end of the day, all the digital techno wizardry can't teach us how to listen, how to find that elusive 'nyah'. But it's a good start.
thots?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
That was probably the best post I've ever read here.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Björn
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Well, let me clarify my position a bit (although, I am still formulating it as I go along).
Personally, I think the overall impact of the technology has been a positive one. There are certainly some negative aspects of it, but overall, I think it's a positive one. Partially because it has helped nurture people like me, who really do care about the tradition, and I *do* believe that in my own little way, that I have a positive impact.
But in answering your question, mtodd, the technology may help some of us analyze and understand the nitty gritty of the music, but in the same sense, it may also dilute the tradition by making it more accessible to people that don't *care* about playing it well. And you are correct, the technology simply can't replace the hours of playing.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I see what you're getting at, Rev, but must point out that all of the instruments employed in traditional music are themselves the product of technology, no matter how primitive or developed.
The voice, of course, is a different matter.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
If not for technology I would never have had the chance to enjoy and play this music. So I say yes to technology.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
You guys have nailed it. The technology is just another tool to be used. Whether it is used wisely or poorly is up the user. Whether it's going to be combined with dedication and practice is also up the user. At the end of the day, it's just a tool, but a wonderful one, I'd say.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I'm re-wathcing the first episode of Canúintí Ceoil right now. It deals with a few of these questions.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Björn
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I'd argue that technology might actually contribute to more diversity - here in Portland we have a number of our own homegrown regionalisms, for example the "trying desperately not to sound too much like Kevin Burke" style of playing - and of course there's the exact opposite of that here too.
After relying for years on the slowdowner - and don't forget Transcribe which actually tells you what note is being played - I'm thrilled to be able to pick up a few tunes at speed. Might make my way to SF for some of those popular "on the fly" sessions down there...
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by airport
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Yes, I think subject covered nicely. And I think this discussion has a long pedigree. Don't some throw around the idea that Coleman's 80-odd high-tech wax and shellac recordings were nothing but a disaster for the tradition?
But then, purists, bless them for their dicipline, are few and far between. The rest of us can indulge the guilty pleasure of having the dog walked by ex-NASA techno-trousers.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by buck buck
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Rev said - "...it may also dilute the tradition by making it more accessible to people that don't *care* about playing it well."
I am quite certain those people would exist whether the technology was available or not. Technology only serves to create a much larger pool of both sorts of folks; people who dedicate their lives to it and people who only do it for casual fun.
Technology as such doesn't create the player, the desire or the motivation - only increased access.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Agreed, Eejit. So in some ways, the good and bad cancel each other out.
john carr, how very strange to see you post on the mustard board! But you're right, I hear stories of scores of Sligo fiddlers giving up fiddling after hearing Coleman. But you'll notice that his recordings didn't seem to spawn a whole host of horrible piano backers... So maybe the tradition can fend for itself when dealing with the bad aspects of new technologies
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"fiddlers giving up.." Likely true, but I'm thinking more along the lines of regional and local styles tainted, sullied or otherwise influenced by distant forces only because of the existence of mechanical recording devices - a sort of Coleman's Cross-Pollination.
And by the way, an irish hit squad hunted down all of those piano players and their spawn.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by buck buck
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
A fiddler down in Braoghiduinn says he feels it in his soul if the horse whose hair is yanked across any particular bow was ever in its lifetime transported in a trailer pulled by a petrol-powered vehicle.
Once the man senses that the tautened hair of any horse thusly transported is present at a given session, he will at first heave five or six heavy sighs. Then he will pack away his own fiddle and bow, and then he rises—slowly, majestically even. Then BANG! he disappears. And yes, I mean just like that.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Dude's name is Bob, or Don. Something like that.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Frankie? Is that you?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by buck buck
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Frankie Kennedy? Naw—he's in a higher heaven that doesn't allow any toes touching down here.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
speaking of technology - I was looking around online for a chair pad I saw once at a session that I thought was a not-stick vinyl barrier kind of thing, but now I'm pretty certain it was one of these:
http://www.flat-d.com/chairpadblack.html
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by airport
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I read the whole page; Jusa: what is a barfly gizmo?
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by sheryl mcd
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
I wondered the same thing - must be this:
http://www.barfly.dial.pipex.com/
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by airport
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Wow, what kind of diet do you have to have that you would feel the need to purchase a fart filter for your chair?
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Yep Airport, Barfly is a shareware for Mac users - and the fellow/gal at the end of the bar who is there every damn night including holidays.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"A fiddler down in Braoghiduinn says he feels it in his soul if the horse whose hair is yanked across any particular bow was ever in its lifetime transported in a trailer pulled by a petrol-powered vehicle."
Most horses, especially in UK and Ireland where they don't have many trucks with 5.4 litre V8s, are transported by diesel-powered vehicles so he probably got on okay.
Much more traditional than unleaded.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Potatoes and beer? Thanks JNE!
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by airport
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Silver Spear--
All fuels and all post-Leonardo engines offended the man. Yet when I challenged him with the plain truth that a variety of fuels had certainly been burned to bring him his special Saipan-stitched, fart-filtering trousers, he dismissed me with the back of his hand. My lips carried the imprint of my trombone mouthpiece for hours afterwards. Wife greeted me this way: Hey Satchmo! Gumbo and affection followed, so no regrets.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
>>> I'm thinking more along the lines of regional and local styles tainted, sullied or otherwise influenced by distant forces
Yes, but don't you think that it's part of the push and pull, or the general nature of things for this to be the case. Maybe technology just accelerates this phenomenon. In the 70's, it was the Bothy Band and DeDannan that were having that effect. Today, it's Lunasa and Solas, or whomever...
But does the rapid growth of communication technologies in the last decade hinder the overall tradition? Help it? I would vote for both... but I still think overall, it has had a positive effect. Look at all the people in this thread that say that they wouldn't be here if it weren't for the technology. And they are people that seem to care...
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Call me crazy, but I think this relates:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4wc8Fq7bEU
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by gw
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Ummm, you're crazy?
(my whiskey-addled brain didn't get the connection, but I enjoyed the clip anyway...)
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
If it weren't for technology I may never have heard Alan Stivell's harp playing on cassette years and years ago. I would never have heard Martin Hayes' fiddle playing on albums years after that.
If it weren't for cassettes I would not have been able to learn the music myself (playing, stopping, rewinding, playing, etc.) for ten years of half hour lessons and a week full of hours of listening and re-listening and playing over and over again.
Nowadays it's MP3's and minidiscs, etc. of course, but like someone else said these are just tools.
Yeah, regional styles are breaking down, but I guess that's been happening since the advent of the automobile. It's sad in a way, but you can't stop the clock or turn back time.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Andee
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Does it ever occur to anyone that maybe some people in the 18th and 19th century lamented the demise of the pure-drop tradition with the advent of these new-fangled uillean pipes and fiddles?
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
"Does it ever occur to anyone that maybe some people in the 18th and 19th century lamented the demise of the pure-drop tradition with the advent of these new-fangled uillean pipes and fiddles?"
Absolutely! And the changeover from wire harp strings to gut to *gasp* nylon!
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Andee
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Enjoyed reading this post a lot - am actually doing some research on influence of music technology in development of regional stylisation and performance practises in ITM, so was great to read people's opinions.
My humble opinion on this is that technology is just a tool, it in itself has no detrement to the tradition, it's utilisation is what's really in question. I think technology has had a massively important role within Irish music - case in point is the cylinders and 78s of the 'Golden' period of recorded trad. Guitar and piano, now both part of the purist scene, were introduced into Irish music in this period. The same can be said for commercialism of Irish music - done well it is of benefit. Done distastefully and not in keeping with the tradition, not so beneficial.
Barney McKenna is a prime example of the positive aspects of both recording and commercialism (although if you are not a fan of the banjo, you probably won't agree). He changed the tuning, incorporated technique from fiddle and pipe playing, and chose the instrument (Paragon) that has become the 'holy grail' of banjos within the genre - all from the commercial success of Dubliners records. Very hard to find anyone playing banjo now that hasn't been influenced by him.
I do think the misuse of music technology can be bad, and there are features within the music that make it very easy to play about with it in a non-traditional way. Firstly, it's in binary form - AA BB AA BB AA BB and so on. Therefore, if you make a mistake, all you need to do is look 8, 16 or 32 before or after, and you can cut and paste an edit over the mistake. A LOT of commercial releases of Irish music are way too clean - they've removed all 'mistakes' in the search of 'perfection', but stripped the music of all it's character and, for want of a better word, balls! Also, this binary form and relatively simple chord progressions means it's very easy to put a 'trad' tune on top of an arrangement with an Audio+MIDI sequncer, like Pro Tools. With it fitting in with a click track, you can add drums, bass lines, all kinds of sh*t, and it will fit in well, although musical merit is questionable.
Also compression can screw up recordings as well - some commercial recordings really go for that 'pop' sound, ideal for playing on radio, but the dynamic range of the tune is squeezed out of it, which takes an awful lot from the music.
I must admit, I like my recordings to be a bit rough and ready. Tony MacMahon and Noel Hill - I love the start of that with the people shouting 'Go on boys!'. I love the change into the second tune on track one, the Temple house, and Noel thinks they're playing the tune single, hits the high g, then realises MacMahon's playing the A part again and Hill drops back into it straight away. That to me gives me more insight into Hill and how talented a musician he is.
So I think recording has had a hugely beneficial impact on ITM, but it is a tool, it is it's utilisation that can be dodgy at times.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
''Absolutely! And the changeover from wire harp strings to gut to *gasp* nylon!''
This is different. A wire strung harp of the traditional design is a different instrument to a nylon harp. Just look at the construction methods. A nylon harp is made from number of pieces of wood glued together. A traditional harp is carved from one piece. Precisely so the t when the strings are put on. the tension pulls the instrument into shape. The playing methods are different.
This is an excellent example of the loss of our traditional heritage . The true Celtic Wire strung harp.
further reading for those with an interest in this subject;
http://larkinthemorning.com/article.asp?AI=35&bhcd2=1210937294
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by typo
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
True Medusa, they are different instruments. (I play harp myself and had a wire harp for a while but I sold it because it was too much for me to learn an entirely new technique as I was also learning fiddle at the time).
I guess though what I meant was that the invention of nylon is an example of technology overtaking, changing, and playing a definite role in the development of the tradition (some may see it as an improvement, others would not).
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Andee
Re: Technology, and its role in Irish Traditional Music
Back to Reverand's comment about the "push and pull and general nature of things." That is it, exactly. I'm guessing that, like most human endevours, ITM was and continues to be a wonderfully messy thing.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by buck buck