This is related to the "Why bother" thread, but I think it would more useful if it could be kept objective. The question is, "does THE music matter?" not "does music matter to you?" If you want to reply to the second question, start your own thread.
Let's see if we can get through this without any rancour. I know I'm as responsible as any, but I'm gonna make a real effort not to get personal.
Some one said something the other day that was profoundly true:
"If you don't wish to conform to a preconceived concept of what Irish music sounds like, then you can play tunes as you choose. It may not sound like Irish Music, but so what?
Yep. "So what?" indeed. The big question stands. Does it matter? It's gonna happen any way, so does it matter?
Yes, Irish music is part of the fabric of human existence. It tells stories that help tie humanity to the past. It reflects upon strength and unity of a culture that endured unspeakable hardship. It helped guide people through tough times. It helps give Ireland an identity that was smeared by the troubles. It is a very social activity, so it provides a subset of society ways to interact with each other. It makes people happy.
Humans have a desire to preserve the past, but Irish music isn't all about preservation, it's part of a living breathing tradition that helps hold the fabric of human existence together leading us into the future too.
Oh, and addressing the other part of the question, I think it is important to that "fabric" to learn what it is about this music that does all those things... So I think it's important to learn the tradition, not just the tunes. Learn how to play it "properly", if there is such a thing in a fluid form like this. Just the act of *trying* to learn it properly is what holds it together as what it is.
I have stated before that the inevitable push and pull of traditionalists vs. progressives with regards to the music is something that keeps the tradition alive and breathing. But a part of that is being conscious of what you're doing, and doing it with consideration of the effects that it has.
As opposed to playing it however you feel like it, and who cares if it sounds like Irish Music...
I think llig meant 'does it matter if it's played with traditional intent. or can anyone play it any old way?' I think it matters profoundly, but most people think that Flogging Molly are from Ireland. So I've given up worrying that what I do is interpreted correctly and luckily I live in an area where there are enough people who know the difference to bother showing up.
"the fabric of human existence"?.... I think you're taking this a bit serious existentially, but then you are a man of the cloth
Presuming we're talking in humankind-scale here (e.g., up until the sun either supernovas or dribbles out and leaves just a handful of homo sapiens huddled around geothermal vents)....
I'd say the music and the tradition matter because:
Like a language, this music is a core element of a particular human culture. It's a response to life on a small, wet chunk of rock surrounded by water. It grew out of that experience. And so it carries a message of happiness and community and continuity and perseverance in spite of some miserable times and conditions. Not a lesson to discard lightly.
Also like a language, this music holds together based on traditions, conventions, and communal understandings. As a living tradition, things change over time, from one generation to the next, but at a fairly slow pace so that the tradition is still distinct from other traditions and from popular culture. Like bio-diversity, cultural diversity is a strength, retaining knowledge and beauty that may come in handy someday in ways we can't even imagine today.
Some of life's big lessons can be learned by acknowledging our personal humility in the face of something larger than us. This music is a collective, intergenerational effort. By understanding it as fully as possible before tinkering with it, we each have an opportunity to learn from the people who came before us and who comprise the trad community today. "Making the music my own" before understanding it means we learn only by ourselves, from ourselves. Seems a tad ingrown and myopic to me. Besides, there's plenty of room for self expression within the tradition--it can't help but happen.
It also matters in a fairly selfish, immediate way. If you want to play with other people who love this music and the tradition behind it, then it helps to immerse yourself in it. If that's not your goal, it matters far less. Tommy Potts springs to mind. No doubt there are plenty more like him around (though perhaps less talented).
i started listening to this music when i was younger, what initially drew my interest was that vague Glaswegian notion of having irish roots, i liked the dubliners and the chieftains but that was about it.
a few years later i was reading about Michael Coleman 'cos my second name is Coleman i started to explore, and got hooked by that whole era.
particularly the pipers.
i got sucked in to the artistry and raw ENERGY of those old recordings...i like TRYING to play the tunes, but i dont see myself as Irish so i dont worry too much about playing it all strictly Trad...i just play it the way my fingers like playing it and change bits when it suits me. I like writing tunes using the traditional format, i find it very economical.
(Not that Mr. Potts wasn't immersed in the tradition. But I've seen people cite him as an excuse to warp the tunes out of all recognition or compatibility with what might work at a session.)
Yes definitely.
In my opinion, someone who is founded in the tradition and internalised it, and who then moves on to produce a different sound is progressive, someone who ignores this first step is plain butchering the tradition and showing disrespect by ignoring it.
There is no authority in my words, being nothing more than an interested outsider, I had to make this point though.
If human endeavour is likened to a tapestry, ITM may only be a single stitch. It has it's place, change it and it would look wrong or misplaced; take it out all together you may not notice it missing at first but the whole would be diminished and poorer for doing so. Sure you can get by without it but for many it is a part of their lives whether they play or listen - it defines them as who and what they are - change it out of recognition (through ignorance or arrogance) and it loses it's charm and relevance for them.
I totally agree with Reverend. Especailly about learning the tradition and not just the tunes. I would be a traditionalist I suppose but I put that down to the years of teaching music I've done. In saying that I have no problem with any musician playing a tune as they like. What I do have a problem with is people teaching tunes as they like. Out of respect for the tradition the tnes should be passed on in their original versions. And I think ITM teachers have a big responsibility in this.
Michael, I'm not going to answer YOUR question, but thon Johnny's instead. This here discussion is precisely the reason why we should bother. Sorry for the interjection.
Will, perhaps it's time you came out of the closet - trying to deny the need to play Morris music is warping your outlook on another Tradition! You could do both...
in Scotland trad music has this image that its only a hobby for middle class highlanders or militaristic pipe bands and the rest of us can get lost and listen to our techno musak down in the grotty lowlands.
this is why most people are more inclined to ignore the tradition altogether , i think its a shame, but i think more non-educated delinquents should pick up instruments and make up their own acoustic peasant music.
i think its vital that people are communicating ancient airs down through the generations, but i also think it isnt a crime to let people go a bit weird with the music as well.
Yikes...I've been blindered, considering only my father's side of the family lines! Al along I should've been learning Morris and German trad too. (Where's that thread about Oompah band music...?).
Nah, I can barely do justice to one tradition. I'll leave the others to the good people who care about them.
Which is another reason THIS music matters--it's such an effin brilliant body of tunes and crack. Not that other cultures don't have their value, but can you imagine a Morris version of Riverdance taking the globe by storm?
IMNSHO Its really down to personal motivation. There are so many aspects to these traditions,[ plural.] Someone from the Scottish tradition could easily get upset at the way Scots tunes are adapted by ITM players. and vice versa.
All these guidelines are fluid, they have to be. Its a living tradition. There truly is no 'one true way'. Of course some people will get upset by what they conceive as 'untraditional' . But to a man the traditional players I play with and respect have open minds. Tunes from Canada, France, get played here as well as Irish , Scottish , Norwegian, etc. To my mind the difference is that these are Irish players who have played all their lives. They are not confined by aspirations to 'sound Irish'!
So first , how do we define ITM for this discussion? Do we strictly leave out 'foreign' material? but how far back do we go? Is it a style of playing? that includes these non ITM tunes? does it have to be Irish tunes played in an 'Irish' style?
Personally I feel that the tradition would be the poorer for this compartmentalisation.
I think it is Impossible to create a rigid concept of ITM because there will always be exceptions. but of course people are free to try.
For me I dont play ITM. I play trad . Like everyone I know. Traditional music. not strictly Irish . though mostly.
I listen to the pure drop. from the Scottish, and Irish traditions, with a smattering of OTM Other Traditional M usic.
Out of the last 30- 40 CD's I have bought not one is a band. they are almost without exception solo artists. occasional duets. no rhythm guitar, or bazouki. no arrangements , no synth[heaven forbid] no artifice, no electrickery, just ordinary people doing extraordinary things.
But I also consider Solas, ?Nomos, Lunessa , etc part of the broader family of ITM. there was a discussion recently re, Commercial ITM . In a way there are many sub-genres of trad; The pure drop. unaccompanied pipes, fiddle, concertina, Whistle, flute .
Accompanied solo players.
duets.
accompanied duets.
bands.
etc
"in Scotland trad music has this image that its only a hobby for middle class highlanders or militaristic pipe bands and the rest of us can get lost and listen to our techno musak down in the grotty lowlands."
Really? Not in my (albeit limited) experience of Scotland. There is far more promotion, support, and encouragement of folk music here than in other places I've lived, at least until recently in light of the funding cuts to the Scots Music Group, RSAMD, and Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland. But that's a rant for another thread.
More on topic, yes, it's important. THE music is whatever the community defines as THE music. If the community understands that maintaining a tradition, a quality and sound it can agree, sort of, on, is vital to its existence, then it will enforce its norms or standards. As someone said, it's a meaningful aspect in the history of Scotland and Ireland, a mechanism in which people can identify their culture. It becomes even more meaningful when passed on through the "performative utterances" of individuals, a historical context that the community doesn't want to lose.
Not that Mr. Potts wasn't immersed in the tradition. But I've seen people cite him as an excuse to warp the tunes out of all recognition or compatibility with what might work at a session. cpt
With all due respect fella if you can only play a tune one way and you cannot fit in with other versions or other players then all i can say is how do fekin musician 8).Secondly there is a school of thought, that in actual fact sessions have got nothing to do with irish music that its at its best when solo,or two three players at most.
Then there is the other style thing you all get hung up on its best to forget that one.The cold truth is most from outside the tradition never get their sound right,i am not so harsh myself and don't mind it as long as the rhythm is not that generic shxte that the majority on the net post. One final thing why is it that the most poisonous and critical,and the ones that take extremes in debates are usually the ones that don't post clips of their playing.
just fekin chill ppl you will never play diddly unless you do great advice i was once given all about that head space.
cheers n peace n that
Ok but who is 'the community' and 'the' community doesnt agree any how... For example a friend of mine learnt his tunes as a boy from PJ and his own father. yet he goes on about the rigid 'traditionalist' around here.
What is this thing you call tradition? We call tradition?
If you mean the young people doing lots of drugs and accruing a criminal record, no, I don't imagine that they're becoming hardcore folkies, at least not in the next year or two. But if you mean young people in general, I can point you to a few sessions in Glasgow and Edinburgh where you can find teens and twenty-somethings playing some amazing tunes.
I agree Silver Spear, there is truth in what DubChieftain says but that is more and more restricted to certain areas of Scotland. Almost all the good festivals in Scotland and trad based music as an important part of their line-up and the majority of Scotland are well aware of trad and realize it is no longer a minority interest.
Dub - 28 is young in my book so I think you are viewing all this from a relatively young perspective. I wasn't aware that trad music was thought of as a middle class or teuchter preoccupation, but then I haven't lived up across the border in Civilisation for a few decades now.
As defining "The Music" - "The Music" for me is a term I picked up when I had the good fortune to be able to play along with and converse with some of the older generation of Irish players here in London, some of whom maybe considered legendary - but we don't name-drop now do we jig? In conversation they wouldn't use any of these horrible terms you hear bandied about here - the worst offender of course being "ITM" - they referred to what we play simply as: The Music.
The community is everyone who plays the music and "the tradition" is whatever we say it is. There are clearly boundaries disputes (the cause of many rows on this website) but I think most people involved in this music at some level -- "the" community, people playing or listening to what they or others label trad music or folk music or whatever you want to call it -- agrees on what trad music is or isn't. We all have a basic sense of how what we are listening to fits into the paradigm, even if we disagree on boundaries. I mean, Lunasa may be far removed from Paddy Canny, especially to those well educated in Irish trad music, but it has more relation to it than Nirvana.
So as not to be confusing this is the line that got me.."compatibility with what might work at a session "
Or maybe i have read you wrong,just seems a puzzling thing for an experienced player to say.
''The community is everyone who plays the music and "the tradition" is whatever we say it is''
On the surface that sounds reasonable. But I dont buy it. I mean, that definition excludes masses of ordinary Irish folk who listen and love the music. and it could include masses of folk who think Kila is 'pure drop'. who have Pretty soon the majority could be telling us that our tunes dont sound right because we dont include samples of subway doors closing! the pure drop, will be a small drop in the ocean of diluted euro trad. Reel poteen might be almost unavailable and we will be forced to drink alchopops.
''I define it as an objective tangible thing'' ok fine, so what is your definition of this objective tangible thing?
But how can it be one thing? it is many,. as many as there are players. and those players don't agree .
I m sorry please explain how your concept of 'THE music , can be tangible when by definition it is intangible. I mean its a contradiction in terms.
Im not trying to be difficult. I am delighted to engage in sober serious debate without unpleasantness. I commend you for this discussion.
Music is intangible. You cant touch it. It is etheric, of course modern media give us the illusion that it is solid but it is not.
jimmydan, I'm not sure I understand your posts, but you seem to have mistaken my example of a problematic approach to the music as *my* approach. If so, then I'll try to clarify.
What I was getting at is that I've heard "some people" make trad tunes into what sounds like acid trip music at a session and then defend their "innovations" by citing Tommy Potts as an precedent.
I'm not one of those people.
Yes, of course this music is traditionally a solo form--sessions are a very recent addition to the music, most likely from the middle of the 20th century (and imported to Ireland from London and America, according to Hammy Hamilton, who wrote on this subject for his Ph.D.).
But most solo players keep their idiosyncracies within certain norms so that they *can* play with other trad musicians when the opportunity arises.
All I'm suggesting is that this is another reason why an understanding of The Music matters. It's *not* free-form jazz, after all. Slip jigs are in 9/8, not 13/16, C#minor is not a common key/mode in this music, and reels are rarely played out at, say, a 20 bpm tempo. People who are immersed in and understand this music, though open to variety, come to it with certain expectations based on their experience and the influence of the larger trad community. Range too far afield of those expectations and you'll end up at outsider, not likely welcome to sessions, hooleys, or ceili.
I'm fully aware of all the contradictions in this discussion. And I'm also aware of the impossibility of specifically defining boundaries. I'm not interested in exploring these issues here,
""I've heard "some people" make trad tunes into what sounds like acid trip music at a session and then defend their "innovations" by citing Tommy Potts as an precedent.""
''I'm not interested in exploring these issues here'' hmm? so ... your question does it matter? to whom?
existentially nothing matters its all dust. The world is dying round our us. does that matter. look, you enjoy your discussion. Whatever its about.
jig and Michael, maybe it helps to imagine this music like a region on a map. Let's say, Sliabh Luchra. People talk about it like it's a real, defined place. But how would you draw the boundaries?
I happen to work in the field of regional planning, and the answer those "experts" use is to worry less about drawing boundary lines and more about understanding what features and qualities fall under the heading of Sliabh Luchra. If they do get down to drawing a boundary, it won't be a hard black line, but more a fuzzy general indication of where the region begins and ends.
So, in my own understanding (however limited or from afar that might be), The Music we are talking about, ***at its core,*** is dance music and airs, centered on the meters and phrasings of reels, jigs, slip jigs, slides, hop jigs, hornpipes, polkas, barndances, marches, highlands, and flings, perhaps more recently (in broad historical terms) including also mazurkas, waltzes, and other forms. The airs are based primarily on songs from the sean nos tradition, but other melodies have also entered this tradition.
Any "modern" tunes composed within the forms of this core are also open to inclusion, provided they are kept alive by the players themselves.
The core can also be mapped out by considering the melody instruments most typical of the tradition, which probably begins with harp, whistle, pipes, and fiddle, gradually widening to include (whether all purists like it or not) flute, concertina, banjo, melodeon, accordion, mandolin, and bouzouki. (I'm tired--I hope I haven't forgotten anyone.) The reason these instruments are important to understanding the tradition is because their musical qualities strongly influence the shape and sound of the music composed on and for them. This in turn shapes the larger body of music. Remembering that as new instruments are added, they both add new sounds and techniques to the tradition, and also are compelled to mimic, to the best of their abilities, the old sounds (harp, pipes, etc.) that started it all.
The farther you wander from this core, the less like The Music it will sound. But the wide, fuzzy boundary is full of music that fits or doesn't depending on how it's played, by whom, and who's giving the thumbs up or down.
Hope that helps move the conversation forward or at least provides some specifics to pick at.
The contradictions are a side issue. I'll gladly discuss them elswhere. The impossibility of specifically defining the boundaries is of minute consequence to the question, but I'll gladly discuss it elswhere.
The question, "Does the music matter?" stands. And the vast majority of posts have replied directly. Most "yes" and the odd "no".
Does the music matter? The remainder of the question is: If it is played however the heck you want, without respect to those that played and enjoyed it previously and/or the majority of those that currently play it and enjoy it?
I don't think that The Music remains Traditional if you do not take those two items in my extended question to heart.
...and that's OK. We have Flogging Mollies, Dropkicked Murphies and we have Dubbed Chieftains.
...and that's OK, that's cool! Though to be honest I always thought you'd sound more like Jamaican-Celtic Sound System with the "Dub" designation and all that, (Ras mon, Ras) but the techno works too.
...but what I like, and what I try to do, is to keep those two groups of people (past and present) in my head and my heart when I play. I've got enough of a personality where it's going to come out in my music no matter what I do, so I guess maybe I seek some sort of guidance for it. Tradition.
As for "to whom does it matter?" the obvious answer is that it matters to those it matters to. Fully 99% of the planet's population don't give a whit. Even some people who play this music don't care.
So maybe the real question is, "If The Music matters to you, how do you protect and preserve that while not completely stifling it?"
Also, I'll cast my vote for saying it only "matters" when change or attrition or dilution or whatever threatens the integrity of the community to whom it matters.
In analogy: Preserving and sustaining the Irish language matters a great deal to most native speakers in Ireland. It matters somewhat less to most non-speakers in Ireland. It matters far less to a sheep herder in Tierra Del Fuego or a rice farmer in Bangladesh.
Would the world (i.e., the sheep herder or rice farmer) be worse off if the Irish language died out?
Is our world worse off if The Music gets so diluted as to be indistinguishable from other genres? Or unrecognizable as what it is now?
Based on my train of thought above, Michael, I don't know if you can separate the two questions--does The Music matter, and does The Music matter to you--as you tried to do in your initial post.
Feel free to tell me I quit making sense half a page up....
Does the music matter?" stands. And the vast majority of posts have replied directly. Most "yes" and the odd "no".
I'm not asking, "To whom does it matter?"
Im sorry, I am genuinely trying to understand your question but it baffles me. Music is subjective not objective. That is a factual statement right? with no people there is no music. [disregarding computers and aliens for the time being]. With no one to make music, and no-one to listen to it there is no music. Music is a human concept and a human construct. How can something that is completely from the minds/hearts of man be objective? Art is subjective. [been here before havent we?]
I know, you dont want to go there.... I give up. Its a trick question, right? .
I like your description will.
SWF, thanks for your "remainder" of the question: "Does it matter if it is played however the heck you want, without respect to those that played and enjoyed it previously and/or the majority of those that currently play it and enjoy it?"
Yes, this is the gist of it.
Will, you are still asking, "to whom does it matter?". That's not the question.
Yes, The Music is subjective. But because we humans are the center of our own consciousnesses, we like to objectify our creations.
I think you can argue that there's a corpus of music that is distinguishable from other genres (based mostly on the qualities I outlined above) that we call The Music or Irish Traditional Music. That's how you know you're not getting Greek music or Masai stomp songs when you buy a copy of O'Neill's or Ceol Rince na Eirrhann (sp?).
So if we can at least agree on that, then we can ask, does that distinct body of music matter?
(Still just trying to move the discussion ahead in an agreeable way.)
I'd say it matters to me, and to others who care about The Music. And it matters to people who simply enjoy cultural diversity. Beyond that, the ice gets a bit thin.
We once had a thread on here asking people whether playing the music or playing their instrument (presumably some other genre of music) was more important. If you had to give one or the other up, which would it be? Keep playing Irish trad, but learn a new instrument? Or keep playing your instrument, but never play Irish trad again?
Comes down to the same debate we're having here, eh? On a more personal level.
Michael, I've tried to explain why I think you can't separate the questions. When you have the time, and if you're so inclined, help me understand how to answer your question without answering "to whom does it matter?"
(And I did try to answer your question in my first post.)
Through a process of pattern recognition, which is better explained by cognitive psychologists, we see things and give them names like "tree," but those things would exist regardless of whether we called them "tree," "fred," or "bob." Earlier socialization and training will determine in which objects you call "trees," but at the end of the day you are using empirical characteristics to figure out what is a tree and what isn't.
Now you can make the argument that Irish music doesn't have the same empirical referents as trees do, as it's entirely culturally constructed. The community of practitioners, and that includes people who just listen to the stuff, designates X as Irish music, as opposed to something else. As I said before, there are boundaries disputes over those definitions but there is a certain amount of pattern recognition that goes on and indeed, is often enforced by the community, that norms are maintained. Will said it well when he said people come to the music with the experience and influence of the larger community. These communitarian designations create a stable institutional form rather than contribute to its destruction.
Jig, I thank you for trying to understand the question. SWLF understands the question, as do many others who have posted. I know it's not a straight forward question, but it's not supposed to be a trick question.
I'm asking for an exploratory link between respect for the countless and nameless individuals who create the music and the physical act of playing it being not down to personal motivation.
I think the "Music" does matter in an historical sense (capital "M" intentional), and those who learn it's intricacies within that historical sense are preserving sound and technique that was not so well preserved by past generations because of technological limitations. This is what seemingly separates the "Music" from the personal. The "music" (with a lower case "m"), on the other hand, does not matter in the grand (somewhat less than macrocosmic) scheme of things and is open to any and all interpretations...
That said, the choice one makes, whether to play the "Music" or the "music," is subjective. It's impossible to separate either connotation of the music from the personal. Whether it "matters" or not is ultimately a personal perspective. There is no getting away from the subjective element.
I'd have to echo Will. The music matters to the people it matters to. To you, to me, to countless others. Probably less to Will's farmer in Tierro del Fuego.
On a wider scale, if you live in an epistemological world where the preservation of cultural knowledge and cultural traditions is important and where it is a negative thing when knowledge is lost or a tradition changes beyond all recognition, then yes, this particular genre of music is important.
There are a lot of things that only matter to a very (relatively speaking) small community of people engaged in that teeny area of practice. But is that alone a reason to not do it or not care about it? Or ask questions of why do it, which you're better off not asking anyway?
(This post brought to you on behalf of GSBTHP, Graduate Students Believing Their Research Has a Point).
So, if I understand SWFL's understanding of the question....
Yes, becoming part of the multi-generational circle of musicians who've created and passed down this music matters--if your intent is to play The Music as part of that circle, and particularly if your intent is to pass The Music on to others.
If the intent is personal expression or just playing music in general, then no, it doesn't matter.
Is that closer to the mark, Michael?
(I could go on and on about honoring the people who kept this music alive and understanding the culutral and physical conditions that shaped this music, etc. Of course that matters. Here, amongst us, on a web site dedicated to keeping The Music alive. But there's a parrallel thread over at http://www.thescreaming.org where what matters isn't The Music but the decline in quality from analog screams to digitized screams in classic horror flicks....)
Yes it does, and it matters most to non-players, the avid listeners who never learnt to play for whatever reason, who travel the length and breadth of Ireland and elsewhere to hear the music.
I remember when I was about 14 in the late 1960s and could play tunes on a cheap mouth organ. To me, playing traditional music on a mouth organ was a source of embarrassment, why not get a real instrument. (to save many posts about bodhrans that came much later after the whistle, banjo mandolin, banjo and then mandolin)
But to those who loved the music, the preservation of which was a desired goal, even tunes on a mouth organ was to be encouraged. In the late sixties you did not have the thousands who now play, as explained in earlier threads my friend and I, on a whistle and mouth organ, were in great demand.
So the music, certainly in Ireland, in small pockets, has always mattered and was carried on by a select few in each area. In was loved and appreciated by the non-players.
The Irish diaspora carried on a number of Irish traditions to remind them of home, and the tradition spread to a number of countries. TV, radio and "super groups" and indeed super shows like "Riverdance" meant that the tradition became popular all over the world, and not just to those of Irish descent.
llig, you're very welcome. I also humbly submit that I did answer the question (without meaning to) of to whom it matters. It matters to those who currently play and enjoy it. Whether those that used to, still do, is a question for theologians. However, it seems to me that most of the people that currently enjoy, play, and dance to the Music LIVE (bless them) certainly keep those that came before in mind, and if possible would seek their approval.
Yes silver spear, your post about pattern recognition is a good one, and your other posts. But the statement: "The music matters to the people it matters to" just feels to closed. I know I'm clutching at straws, but that was the point of the post.
Will, I thought you gave a lovely answer in your first post:
"Some of life's big lessons can be learned by acknowledging our personal humility in the face of something larger than us."
I think that explains how you can separate the questions of "why does it matter/"and "to whom does it matter/" beautifully.
Well, then, yes, it ought to matter to everyone. As a way or model through which humans can improve themselves. But other people choose other lessons and other models.
Ah so does preserving the traditional culture of these isles matter? well to some people it does. sadly the great majority seem to accept the tarmacking over of our cultural heritage and the building of a motorway and fast food cafe to be acceptable. But the music is but one aspect of our traditional heritage, one of the few left. And that appears to be receiving the Disney play park treatment to some extent.
What truly is left? what we have now is the remnants of a once great thriving culture . Sorry but I think its mostly gone.... This is a world of Anglo-Saxon domination.
This thread is related to the "Why bother" thread, but I think it would more useful if it could be kept objective. The question is, "does THE music matter?" not "does music matter to you?" If you want to reply to the second question, start your own thread.
I'll try to give Michael something worthwhile to wake up to.
Yes, THE Music matters--THIS Music matters--because it's sooooooooooooooo feckin good! Even if no other music existed, and only this small sodden isle had the tunes, or conversely, if EVERYONE played music--every single person--and we each had our own genre, yet we were all so talented that we could instantly play together, switching genres like flipping a nano switch from 1 to 0 and back again.
THIS music is so ineffably effen wonderful, inexhaustable, personable, soaring, joyous, tragic, soothing, invigorating, and irresistable that it would matter more than most.
And so it does, even in an increasingly digital, global, iTune world.
It matters to me and to countless players whose company I keep (and have kept), to countless players long since dearly departed and to countless players who are just starting out at the music. But that doesn't really answer Mr Llig's question. Does it matter per se?
I would argue that it does because in itself the music is a beautiful thing and who would want to deprive the world of such beauty? The music says things that no other music says - not just similar things in "a different accent", but uniquely particular to Irish music (or at least I've never heard music which can, for example, conjure up so much melancholy where, at face value, the tune is a rollicksome canter). Lose that - or overlayer the music with borrowings from other musics so that we lose sight of its core - and we lose things to say, not just ways to say them.
""The music says things that no other music says - not just similar things in "a different accent", but uniquely particular to Irish music (or at least I've never heard music which can, for example, conjure up so much melancholy where, at face value, the tune is a rollicksome canter). Lose that - or overlayer the music with borrowings from other musics so that we lose sight of its core - and we lose things to say, not just ways to say them.""
Yes, THE music matters--not to mention its inherent beauty, and its close ties to communal dance, there is the whole participatory nature of an art form where everyone joins in.
It matters to me,
My earliest childhood memories are tied up in the tunes my Grandfather played on his melodeon, an instrument now in my possession and which will be passed on to my sons, songs my mother sang, photos of many relatives all who played. Family gatherings of my siblings scattered across the globe with music as the defining factor. Teaching tunes to my sons, giving tunes to friends, playing a tune with my wife in a (quiet moment (rare these days).
It does very much matter.
Much in the same way that, say, the Breton Language matters. If it were to disappear, the world and all the people living in it could function perfectly well, and simply use a substitute. But the World would be a poorer place, and we'd be one step closer to homogenous bland uniformity.
Well the world does seem to be on a quick march to uniformity! So right, we want to preserve our culture against the sweeping tides of 'progress'. Whats left of it. There are numerous pockets of resistance against this trend. Thank god. But the very resistance its self can become a problem . Well meaning people do their best but Its hardly possible to codify what it is we are trying to preserve. Look at food preservation as an analogy... fill the food with preservatives, coat it with wax. use other chemicals to 'neutralise' the first batch and you are left with a poisonous nutrition less façade of the original thing you tried to preserve.
Another problem, though perhaps not so relevant . Look at the way other cultures around the world are being subsumed by MTV culture, How the Islamic cultures are attempting to preserve their heritage, defend themselves from western imperialism. The worry is that they create a pastiche of their culture as a reaction to this 'invasion' . The young think that this is the real thing. A version of Islam far removed from its heritage is propagated as the 'one true way' .
Back to ITM. What are the defining points of this culture we wish to preserve?
Ottery, I'm not so sure that it would be "bland uniformity". In some ways of looking at the trends recently, it's the opposite, at least as far as music is concerned. Technology has made it easier for people to make music, and the internet has made it possible for people to discover different music to call their own much more easily (as opposed to having it force fed to you by radio, or whatever). So in that sense, we are headed toward more musical diversity. From a distance, that would look more like bland uniformity, because there are fewer big "clumps" of musical style, and styles are being blurred. But in reality, it's more diverse when you look closely at it. (The same does not apply to things like restaurant chains, and such, which ARE headed toward bland uniformity, it seems).
But that relates directly to why I think "The Music" is important. That "clump" of musical style is something that brings people together, with a mostly common goal - to play the music well. And to be able to play the music well with each other, the easiest way to do that is to play it traditionally. It is a community-building activity, which I would say is more important in the big scheme of things than individualistic, selfish diversity.
The arguments for and against the music mattering are necessarily value-based and therefore very complex. Like Ottery says, the arguments run along the same lines as those for and against attempts to revive dying languages. This music is cultural heritage, just like language, so of course it matters, but trying to explain why to someone who doesn't see its importance is more difficult than it first seems. To someone who thinks "languages and different types of music and even whole civilsations have been dying out right through history, and we humans are still here and surviving perfectly well" the music *wouldn't* matter. People have written whole books on the subject of cultural diversity, specifically relating to language (Joshua Fishman is a particular favourite of mine), some of which have compared cultural diversity to biodiversity (I noticed someone mentioned that earlier). The main argument for language maintenance, though, is that language encapsulates a particular world view, which can't really be said of music, because music is far more abstract in its cultural content. That doesn't mean it's less worthy of our attention and concern, though. However, I'm not sure quite what it *does* mean...
You can try and thrash it out here on thesession.org if you like, but you'll never get anywhere near a satisfactory answer, unless you're happy with a simple "yes" or "no". Maybe if you spent a few years and wrote a PhD thesis on it you might get the answer you want.
My answer's "yes", but the fact that that's my personal opinion necessarily means that my awareness of the issue may affect my personal motivation for playing the music beyond simply enjoying having a few tunes and some beers on a Tuesday night. I don't know, I can't tell how much my individual actions affect - or are affected by - the bigger picture ("the Music" on a macro level of culture-in-society), and I can't be bothered to think about it. Anyway, that's not what you want, right?
My response to what Reverend says is that diversity doesn't have to be "selfish", any more than community-building activities have to be "important". There's good culture and bad culture, and good and bad community-building activities.
Oh, I would agree, Dow, but I was referring to the specifics of Irish Traditional Music as a community-building activity, versus the "me generation", that seems to be entirely selfish.
I wasn't trying to make a broad statement about community-building versus diversity...
My point was twofold, that not everything is heading toward bland diversity, and also that I think the community-building aspect of ITM is something that makes it important in the big scheme of things, not just directly to those who play it...
I'd like to take issue with something you say there, Reverend.
"Technology has made it easier for people to make music, and the internet has made it possible for people to discover different music to call their own much more easily (as opposed to having it force fed to you by radio, or whatever). So in that sense, we are headed toward more musical diversity".
Why does the fact that more people have access to different sorts of music mean 'we are headed toward more musical diversity'? The fact that I start listening to Tuvaluan Nose Singing doesn't increase musical diversity in anyway whatsoever - it was already there! It's a bit like saying that Columbus 'discovering' America increased the number of continents .....
What actually might happen is that rich Western musician hears Tuvaluan Nose Singer, steals idea, sticks it on a track with a techno beat and sells it back to Tuvalu. Ten years down the line they've chucked the nose singing and got hooked on the Techno and Ecstasy! Then it's only a short plunge into the abyss of chucking the community singing in the LongHouse for Saturday night on the sofa with the missus watching the omnibus editions of the X-Factor and the Apprentice.
Also remain sceptical about the idea that 'Technology has made it easier for people to make music' necessarily increases diversity. Think it just means more people producing infinite versions of a very tiny spectrum of music (Well, junk, really).
..... but don't get the idea that I'm some sort of cynic
Dow, I think Micky Finn's post is an apt response to your concerns (and the best answer yet). In short, it matters because if we lose The Music, then we lose the ability to say certain things.
The analogy to losing a language runs throughout this thread, and Micky's point shows it's not just an analogy but a genuine shared quality between music and language. The Music enables us to express things that we cannot express without it.
I've seen native speakers of Crow (a tribe here in Montana) at a complete loss for words when trying to translate a concept from their culture into Anglo culture, into English. It's painfully apparent that they have an idea that has no synonym in our culture. Until you gain some (more than superficial) understanding of the Crow culture and language, you cannot fully grasp or appreciate that particular idea.
This Music does that in spades.
Of course, Irish trad music isn't the only "language" that carries such meanings. Most languages and musics do this. That's why there are people who become linguists and ethnomusicologists and run around trying to "save" certain genres from the brink of oblivion.
Yes, that was what I was hinting at when I said "I'm not sure what it *does* mean". How do you explain to someone what a particular music expresses, especially when it expresses different things for different people? If you can't pinpoint what it expresses, then you can't pinpoint why it matters. You can either say "yes, it matters", or you can go round in circles for the rest of your life and try and write a PhD thesis about it No amount of talking on this thread is going to produce a satisfactory answer, not even Micky's post.
In the short-term I think what Pete says is more relevant to our particular kind of music - the whole thing of community-building and group identity. Once you start talking about human expression of abstract emotions it all gets very wishy-washy and poncey, and really quite far removed from the reality of our everyday music-making, which for most of us functions as an excuse to make some noise and chat to our mates and have a drink. In fact, hmm... community-building... why don't we all give up the music en masse and form a big international strip poker club instead for a laugh?
How do you explain it to someone else? Well, you can talk about draoicht and nyah and the truckly-how. See? It beggars you to wade into the culture and not just stand at the edge looking at your own reflection. There's a whole 'nuther world view beneath the surface if anyone dares immerse themselves.
Of course the best way to "explain" it is to not explain it at all but just play The Music in a traditional way and share that with others. Its highly contagious.
LOL, Mark, here in Montana we've already combined the two. Here's how it works: first one to fumble a note or lose the beat has to remove an article of clothing. You get to put something back on if you come up with a particularly nice turn into a new tune during the set. Bodhranistas are not allowed to participate.
Ottery, I think that technology has certainly increased the diversity of music. Simply from the fact that people now make music that can't be physically played by a human being. (Some might argue the use of the term "music" in that case).
In a more general sense, I understand what you're saying. People tend to mimic what they like when they're making music, and not that many people are particularly innovative with how they do it.
But I also think that the internet has helped create a broader market for different music in a commercial sense. Artists don't need a record label to become successful, because they can market themselves. The broader market makes more more musical diversity commercially viable, which will inevitably lead to more musical diversity (but generally on a much smaller scale commercially).
I'm not really trying to argue here, I just find the discussion interesting. And again, it leads me to value the tradition even more (but again, that's a 'why it matters to me' thing, not a 'why it matters' thing...)
Mark, that's the point I was getting at exactly. Humans are social creatures, and things that bring us together are a good thing. The Music brings us together - on a small scale, to have some pints and a laugh with our friends, but also on a bigger scale, because I now have something specific in common with people in other parts of the world that I wouldn't have otherwise. I think of that as a good thing too.
"here in Montana we've already combined the two. Here's how it works: first one to fumble a note or lose the beat has to remove an article of clothing."
Oo. Wonder whose idea *that* was. That'll be why you're so keen to teach the girls at the bar how to play the music so they can join in your "sessions", then, is it?
The other half of that idea being that if we don't share the same values about how the music should be played, then it doesn't bring us together as well. Or in some cases, with some people that I have played with that don't care about making it sound right, it drives us apart.
I like the idea that The Music is such a powerful agent for human interaction. Sure, musicians from other genres can get together and play, and it's possible for a jazz, rock, blues, or bluegrass player, say, to find cohorts in almost any sizeable city around the globe. But what other music has such a highly structured yet laid back, almost lackadaisical and global format for doing so?
"The other half of that idea being that if we don't share the same values about how the music should be played, then it doesn't bring us together as well. Or in some cases, with some people that I have played with that don't care about making it sound right, it drives us apart."
Or it makes you *wish* you could be driven apart, like when you're stuck in a session with a really bad bodhran player.
My posts are deteriorating bigtime. Must be time to go to bed!
Sorry to appear argumentative, but I'm very interested in the idea of technology and progress, in my capacity as 'email serf', which has taken over a much larger part of my working life than actually producing anything
Pete, you say 'I think that technology has certainly increased the diversity of music'. It seems common sense, doesn't it? But actually it may be the case that completely the opposite is true.
Given that we are talking about Trad here on this site, let’s look at the effect of technology on Irish music. Initial technological advances such as the introduction of fiddles, flutes and accordions might be said to have increased the diversity of the sound pallet of the music, though some, notably Seán Ó Riada disagree about the accordions at least ("Most accordian players are so hampered by their choice of instrument as to be unable to produce anything but a faint wheezy imitation of Irish music. And unfortunately this instrument, designed by foreigners for the use of peasants with neither the time, inclination nor application for a worthier instrument is gaining vast popularity throughout the country. The reason for this is mainly, I think, the laziness which afflicts us as a nation at the moment. We would all like to be musicians, but we don't want to take the trouble. It is easier to play notes ready-made for us than to make our own, so we turn to accordians - bigger and better accordians - eventually to the greatest abomination of all, the piano accordian. Nothing could be further from the spirit of Irish music...")
The really big technological impact came with the arrival of the 78rpm gramophone record. Suddenly it indeed became possible for people to discover different music to call their own much more easily! And what happened? Everyone wanted to sound like Michael Colman. Diversity went down the plughole.
Now we have the World Wide Wonder Web.
In the last ten years, what new fabulous new diversity of music has sprung up in Ireland to replace the regional styles destroyed by the previous technology?
''Right... so that's why "conforming to the preconceived concept of what Irish music sounds like" *matters*!''
But who's preconceived Idea of what trad sounds like? the teen who thinks Afro celts is trad or the old boy out on his farm in East Clare? You see we all have different concepts of what 'trad' is.
That is why it behoves us to listen to and respect the old masters. There is actually a wide variety of pure drop, different regional and personal styles, different concepts of what is 'right' . To my mind its best to immerse ourselves in that full spectrum and arrive at our own personal expression of what it all means to us. That personal expression through the medium of this music 'is' trad to my mind. without that there is something missing.
Jig, I think you answered your own question there. "Listen to and respect the old masters." I would add, listen to the players today whose playing demonstrates that they too have listened to and respected the old masters.
So Afro celt doesn't fit the bill, at least not yet.
And I think you have to go back to my points earlier about this being dance music and sean nos airs, originally composed on a relatively small number of instruments. These qualities are at the core of what it means to be traditional Irish music, as distinct from Afro celt or Techno celt or any other offshoot.
Um, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, there's room for ***informed*** personal expression within the tradition. But if it's not informed by the tradition itself, then its (naturally) not traditional and it no longer contributes to The Music. It may run parallel or off on some interesting tangent, but it's not The Music.
And we're lucky to live in a time where the tradition carries on, while others are free to experiment and innovate. But that doesn't mean the traditionalists have to embrace all or any of the experiments or innovations.
It's an interesting discussion, Ottery. I just (cross) posted another thread to discuss it, because I think there are good arguments to be made both ways
To answer the question, I think you first need to define what the music is. Michael refers to THE music, others specify “The Music”. Will used playing “The Music in the traditional way” as a way of helping to define. If I’m reading correctly, to some, Solas and Lunasa, used as examples above, don’t “qualify”. In the past, some folks here have indicated that Kevin Burke isn’t an “ITM” fiddler. Some argue whether this tune or that tune is part of The Music (THE music), whether playing Nascar fast is the right way of things.
My answer is yes. Music is important, full stop. I don’t qualify, or quantify. It’s all important, regardless of personal preference or abilities.
And Seamus Eagan’s flute playing really floats my boat.
Deb, heard Seamus and Eileen on 'dear old Erins isle'? the tape/cd is worth the money for that one track. the rest is incredible. just the two of them.
Speaking from my own experience playing Irish music as well as ragtime and blues, yes it does matter that you should respect the customs and traditions of whatever genre of music you are playing no matter what instrument you play. Also, you should make a serious effort to learn as much as you can about the customs and traditions of any type of music you are playing whether or not you are performing in front of a paying audience or just playing for your own pleasure in the privacy of your own home.
Does the music matter?
Does the music matter?
This is related to the "Why bother" thread, but I think it would more useful if it could be kept objective. The question is, "does THE music matter?" not "does music matter to you?" If you want to reply to the second question, start your own thread.
Let's see if we can get through this without any rancour. I know I'm as responsible as any, but I'm gonna make a real effort not to get personal.
Some one said something the other day that was profoundly true:
"If you don't wish to conform to a preconceived concept of what Irish music sounds like, then you can play tunes as you choose. It may not sound like Irish Music, but so what?
Yep. "So what?" indeed. The big question stands. Does it matter? It's gonna happen any way, so does it matter?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes, Irish music is part of the fabric of human existence. It tells stories that help tie humanity to the past. It reflects upon strength and unity of a culture that endured unspeakable hardship. It helped guide people through tough times. It helps give Ireland an identity that was smeared by the troubles. It is a very social activity, so it provides a subset of society ways to interact with each other. It makes people happy.
Humans have a desire to preserve the past, but Irish music isn't all about preservation, it's part of a living breathing tradition that helps hold the fabric of human existence together leading us into the future too.
So yes, it matters.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
Oh, and addressing the other part of the question, I think it is important to that "fabric" to learn what it is about this music that does all those things... So I think it's important to learn the tradition, not just the tunes. Learn how to play it "properly", if there is such a thing in a fluid form like this. Just the act of *trying* to learn it properly is what holds it together as what it is.
I have stated before that the inevitable push and pull of traditionalists vs. progressives with regards to the music is something that keeps the tradition alive and breathing. But a part of that is being conscious of what you're doing, and doing it with consideration of the effects that it has.
As opposed to playing it however you feel like it, and who cares if it sounds like Irish Music...
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
I think llig meant 'does it matter if it's played with traditional intent. or can anyone play it any old way?' I think it matters profoundly, but most people think that Flogging Molly are from Ireland. So I've given up worrying that what I do is interpreted correctly and luckily I live in an area where there are enough people who know the difference to bother showing up.
"the fabric of human existence"?.... I think you're taking this a bit serious existentially, but then you are a man of the cloth
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Farr
Re: Does the music matter?
Presuming we're talking in humankind-scale here (e.g., up until the sun either supernovas or dribbles out and leaves just a handful of homo sapiens huddled around geothermal vents)....
I'd say the music and the tradition matter because:
Like a language, this music is a core element of a particular human culture. It's a response to life on a small, wet chunk of rock surrounded by water. It grew out of that experience. And so it carries a message of happiness and community and continuity and perseverance in spite of some miserable times and conditions. Not a lesson to discard lightly.
Also like a language, this music holds together based on traditions, conventions, and communal understandings. As a living tradition, things change over time, from one generation to the next, but at a fairly slow pace so that the tradition is still distinct from other traditions and from popular culture. Like bio-diversity, cultural diversity is a strength, retaining knowledge and beauty that may come in handy someday in ways we can't even imagine today.
Some of life's big lessons can be learned by acknowledging our personal humility in the face of something larger than us. This music is a collective, intergenerational effort. By understanding it as fully as possible before tinkering with it, we each have an opportunity to learn from the people who came before us and who comprise the trad community today. "Making the music my own" before understanding it means we learn only by ourselves, from ourselves. Seems a tad ingrown and myopic to me. Besides, there's plenty of room for self expression within the tradition--it can't help but happen.
It also matters in a fairly selfish, immediate way. If you want to play with other people who love this music and the tradition behind it, then it helps to immerse yourself in it. If that's not your goal, it matters far less. Tommy Potts springs to mind. No doubt there are plenty more like him around (though perhaps less talented).
I can think of more, but work beckons....)
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
i started listening to this music when i was younger, what initially drew my interest was that vague Glaswegian notion of having irish roots, i liked the dubliners and the chieftains but that was about it.
a few years later i was reading about Michael Coleman 'cos my second name is Coleman i started to explore, and got hooked by that whole era.
particularly the pipers.
i got sucked in to the artistry and raw ENERGY of those old recordings...i like TRYING to play the tunes, but i dont see myself as Irish so i dont worry too much about playing it all strictly Trad...i just play it the way my fingers like playing it and change bits when it suits me. I like writing tunes using the traditional format, i find it very economical.
ive never played at a session though, just a few gigs where ive used the banjo with electronic instruments.
for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg5faKuJ5Aw
to be honest, im glad that people do sessions, but its not something i think i could contribute to meaningfully.
at the end of day i like my ITM old, scratchy and without guitars.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by DubChieftain
Re: Does the music matter?
(Not that Mr. Potts wasn't immersed in the tradition. But I've seen people cite him as an excuse to warp the tunes out of all recognition or compatibility with what might work at a session.)
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes definitely.
In my opinion, someone who is founded in the tradition and internalised it, and who then moves on to produce a different sound is progressive, someone who ignores this first step is plain butchering the tradition and showing disrespect by ignoring it.
There is no authority in my words, being nothing more than an interested outsider, I had to make this point though.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by TMB
Re: Does the music matter?
If human endeavour is likened to a tapestry, ITM may only be a single stitch. It has it's place, change it and it would look wrong or misplaced; take it out all together you may not notice it missing at first but the whole would be diminished and poorer for doing so. Sure you can get by without it but for many it is a part of their lives whether they play or listen - it defines them as who and what they are - change it out of recognition (through ignorance or arrogance) and it loses it's charm and relevance for them.
So yes, it matters.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Does the music matter?
Heh, if it didn't matter, then we'd all be playing Morris music, eh?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
I totally agree with Reverend. Especailly about learning the tradition and not just the tunes. I would be a traditionalist I suppose but I put that down to the years of teaching music I've done. In saying that I have no problem with any musician playing a tune as they like. What I do have a problem with is people teaching tunes as they like. Out of respect for the tradition the tnes should be passed on in their original versions. And I think ITM teachers have a big responsibility in this.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Deise
Re: Does the music matter?
Michael, I'm not going to answer YOUR question, but thon Johnny's instead. This here discussion is precisely the reason why we should bother. Sorry for the interjection.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Does the music matter?
Will, perhaps it's time you came out of the closet - trying to deny the need to play Morris music is warping your outlook on another Tradition! You could do both...
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Does the music matter?
in Scotland trad music has this image that its only a hobby for middle class highlanders or militaristic pipe bands and the rest of us can get lost and listen to our techno musak down in the grotty lowlands.
this is why most people are more inclined to ignore the tradition altogether , i think its a shame, but i think more non-educated delinquents should pick up instruments and make up their own acoustic peasant music.
i think its vital that people are communicating ancient airs down through the generations, but i also think it isnt a crime to let people go a bit weird with the music as well.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by DubChieftain
Re: Does the music matter?
Yikes...I've been blindered, considering only my father's side of the family lines! Al along I should've been learning Morris and German trad too. (Where's that thread about Oompah band music...?).
Nah, I can barely do justice to one tradition. I'll leave the others to the good people who care about them.
Which is another reason THIS music matters--it's such an effin brilliant body of tunes and crack. Not that other cultures don't have their value, but can you imagine a Morris version of Riverdance taking the globe by storm?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
IMNSHO
Its really down to personal motivation. There are so many aspects to these traditions,[ plural.] Someone from the Scottish tradition could easily get upset at the way Scots tunes are adapted by ITM players. and vice versa.
All these guidelines are fluid, they have to be. Its a living tradition. There truly is no 'one true way'. Of course some people will get upset by what they conceive as 'untraditional' . But to a man the traditional players I play with and respect have open minds. Tunes from Canada, France, get played here as well as Irish , Scottish , Norwegian, etc. To my mind the difference is that these are Irish players who have played all their lives. They are not confined by aspirations to 'sound Irish'!
So first , how do we define ITM for this discussion? Do we strictly leave out 'foreign' material? but how far back do we go? Is it a style of playing? that includes these non ITM tunes? does it have to be Irish tunes played in an 'Irish' style?
Personally I feel that the tradition would be the poorer for this compartmentalisation.
I think it is Impossible to create a rigid concept of ITM because there will always be exceptions. but of course people are free to try.
For me I dont play ITM. I play trad . Like everyone I know. Traditional music. not strictly Irish . though mostly.
I listen to the pure drop. from the Scottish, and Irish traditions, with a smattering of OTM Other Traditional M usic.
Out of the last 30- 40 CD's I have bought not one is a band. they are almost without exception solo artists. occasional duets. no rhythm guitar, or bazouki. no arrangements , no synth[heaven forbid] no artifice, no electrickery, just ordinary people doing extraordinary things.
But I also consider Solas, ?Nomos, Lunessa , etc part of the broader family of ITM. there was a discussion recently re, Commercial ITM . In a way there are many sub-genres of trad; The pure drop. unaccompanied pipes, fiddle, concertina, Whistle, flute .
Accompanied solo players.
duets.
accompanied duets.
bands.
etc
So to conclude how do you define 'THE music'?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
"in Scotland trad music has this image that its only a hobby for middle class highlanders or militaristic pipe bands and the rest of us can get lost and listen to our techno musak down in the grotty lowlands."
Really? Not in my (albeit limited) experience of Scotland. There is far more promotion, support, and encouragement of folk music here than in other places I've lived, at least until recently in light of the funding cuts to the Scots Music Group, RSAMD, and Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland. But that's a rant for another thread.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
Morris + Industrial Revolution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTiAU-w1KyI
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by DubChieftain
Re: Does the music matter?
LOL, Dub, well they *do* get better looking groupies than my session does....
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
TheSilverSpear:
yeah, there's a lot of funding,
i dont think its really captured the imagination of the yoof in the big cities though...IMO.
but im 28 so i cant really speak for the yoof.
in fact, im going to stop typing now.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by DubChieftain
Re: Does the music matter?
More on topic, yes, it's important. THE music is whatever the community defines as THE music. If the community understands that maintaining a tradition, a quality and sound it can agree, sort of, on, is vital to its existence, then it will enforce its norms or standards. As someone said, it's a meaningful aspect in the history of Scotland and Ireland, a mechanism in which people can identify their culture. It becomes even more meaningful when passed on through the "performative utterances" of individuals, a historical context that the community doesn't want to lose.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
Not that Mr. Potts wasn't immersed in the tradition. But I've seen people cite him as an excuse to warp the tunes out of all recognition or compatibility with what might work at a session. cpt
With all due respect fella if you can only play a tune one way and you cannot fit in with other versions or other players then all i can say is how do fekin musician 8).Secondly there is a school of thought, that in actual fact sessions have got nothing to do with irish music that its at its best when solo,or two three players at most.
Then there is the other style thing you all get hung up on its best to forget that one.The cold truth is most from outside the tradition never get their sound right,i am not so harsh myself and don't mind it as long as the rhythm is not that generic shxte that the majority on the net post. One final thing why is it that the most poisonous and critical,and the ones that take extremes in debates are usually the ones that don't post clips of their playing.
just fekin chill ppl you will never play diddly unless you do great advice i was once given all about that head space.
cheers n peace n that
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by J.D
Re: Does the music matter?
Ok but who is 'the community' and 'the' community doesnt agree any how... For example a friend of mine learnt his tunes as a boy from PJ and his own father. yet he goes on about the rigid 'traditionalist' around here.
What is this thing you call tradition? We call tradition?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
DubChieftain,
Who are the "yoof?"
If you mean the young people doing lots of drugs and accruing a criminal record, no, I don't imagine that they're becoming hardcore folkies, at least not in the next year or two. But if you mean young people in general, I can point you to a few sessions in Glasgow and Edinburgh where you can find teens and twenty-somethings playing some amazing tunes.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
I agree Silver Spear, there is truth in what DubChieftain says but that is more and more restricted to certain areas of Scotland. Almost all the good festivals in Scotland and trad based music as an important part of their line-up and the majority of Scotland are well aware of trad and realize it is no longer a minority interest.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by bogman
Re: Does the music matter?
Dub - 28 is young in my book
so I think you are viewing all this from a relatively young perspective. I wasn't aware that trad music was thought of as a middle class or teuchter preoccupation, but then I haven't lived up across the border in Civilisation for a few decades now.
As defining "The Music" - "The Music" for me is a term I picked up when I had the good fortune to be able to play along with and converse with some of the older generation of Irish players here in London, some of whom maybe considered legendary - but we don't name-drop now do we jig? In conversation they wouldn't use any of these horrible terms you hear bandied about here - the worst offender of course being "ITM" - they referred to what we play simply as: The Music.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Does the music matter?
Jig,
The community is everyone who plays the music and "the tradition" is whatever we say it is. There are clearly boundaries disputes (the cause of many rows on this website) but I think most people involved in this music at some level -- "the" community, people playing or listening to what they or others label trad music or folk music or whatever you want to call it -- agrees on what trad music is or isn't. We all have a basic sense of how what we are listening to fits into the paradigm, even if we disagree on boundaries. I mean, Lunasa may be far removed from Paddy Canny, especially to those well educated in Irish trad music, but it has more relation to it than Nirvana.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
So as not to be confusing this is the line that got me.."compatibility with what might work at a session "
Or maybe i have read you wrong,just seems a puzzling thing for an experienced player to say.
JD
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by J.D
Re: Does the music matter?
I define the music as NOT being down to personal motivation. That's why I asked the question: "does THE music matter?" not "does music matter to you?"
I define it as an objective tangible thing that, even though it is created by individuals, stands apart from personal motivation.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
''The community is everyone who plays the music and "the tradition" is whatever we say it is''
On the surface that sounds reasonable. But I dont buy it. I mean, that definition excludes masses of ordinary Irish folk who listen and love the music. and it could include masses of folk who think Kila is 'pure drop'. who have Pretty soon the majority could be telling us that our tunes dont sound right because we dont include samples of subway doors closing! the pure drop, will be a small drop in the ocean of diluted euro trad. Reel poteen might be almost unavailable and we will be forced to drink alchopops.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
''I define it as an objective tangible thing'' ok fine, so what is your definition of this objective tangible thing?
But how can it be one thing? it is many,. as many as there are players. and those players don't agree .
I m sorry please explain how your concept of 'THE music , can be tangible when by definition it is intangible. I mean its a contradiction in terms.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
Im not trying to be difficult. I am delighted to engage in sober serious debate without unpleasantness. I commend you for this discussion.
Music is intangible. You cant touch it. It is etheric, of course modern media give us the illusion that it is solid but it is not.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
Sounds like your frequently evident paranoia, thinly disguised as control freakery, is showing again jig.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Does the music matter?
?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
I define the music as NOT being down to personal motivation.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
jimmydan, I'm not sure I understand your posts, but you seem to have mistaken my example of a problematic approach to the music as *my* approach. If so, then I'll try to clarify.
What I was getting at is that I've heard "some people" make trad tunes into what sounds like acid trip music at a session and then defend their "innovations" by citing Tommy Potts as an precedent.
I'm not one of those people.
Yes, of course this music is traditionally a solo form--sessions are a very recent addition to the music, most likely from the middle of the 20th century (and imported to Ireland from London and America, according to Hammy Hamilton, who wrote on this subject for his Ph.D.).
But most solo players keep their idiosyncracies within certain norms so that they *can* play with other trad musicians when the opportunity arises.
All I'm suggesting is that this is another reason why an understanding of The Music matters. It's *not* free-form jazz, after all. Slip jigs are in 9/8, not 13/16, C#minor is not a common key/mode in this music, and reels are rarely played out at, say, a 20 bpm tempo. People who are immersed in and understand this music, though open to variety, come to it with certain expectations based on their experience and the influence of the larger trad community. Range too far afield of those expectations and you'll end up at outsider, not likely welcome to sessions, hooleys, or ceili.
Capiche?
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
I'm fully aware of all the contradictions in this discussion. And I'm also aware of the impossibility of specifically defining boundaries. I'm not interested in exploring these issues here,
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
""I've heard "some people" make trad tunes into what sounds like acid trip music at a session and then defend their "innovations" by citing Tommy Potts as an precedent.""
Yes sounds fair enough,thanks for clarifying.
JD
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by J.D
Re: Does the music matter?
''I'm not interested in exploring these issues here'' hmm? so ... your question does it matter? to whom?
existentially nothing matters its all dust. The world is dying round our us. does that matter. look, you enjoy your discussion. Whatever its about.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
jig and Michael, maybe it helps to imagine this music like a region on a map. Let's say, Sliabh Luchra. People talk about it like it's a real, defined place. But how would you draw the boundaries?
I happen to work in the field of regional planning, and the answer those "experts" use is to worry less about drawing boundary lines and more about understanding what features and qualities fall under the heading of Sliabh Luchra. If they do get down to drawing a boundary, it won't be a hard black line, but more a fuzzy general indication of where the region begins and ends.
So, in my own understanding (however limited or from afar that might be), The Music we are talking about, ***at its core,*** is dance music and airs, centered on the meters and phrasings of reels, jigs, slip jigs, slides, hop jigs, hornpipes, polkas, barndances, marches, highlands, and flings, perhaps more recently (in broad historical terms) including also mazurkas, waltzes, and other forms. The airs are based primarily on songs from the sean nos tradition, but other melodies have also entered this tradition.
Any "modern" tunes composed within the forms of this core are also open to inclusion, provided they are kept alive by the players themselves.
The core can also be mapped out by considering the melody instruments most typical of the tradition, which probably begins with harp, whistle, pipes, and fiddle, gradually widening to include (whether all purists like it or not) flute, concertina, banjo, melodeon, accordion, mandolin, and bouzouki. (I'm tired--I hope I haven't forgotten anyone.) The reason these instruments are important to understanding the tradition is because their musical qualities strongly influence the shape and sound of the music composed on and for them. This in turn shapes the larger body of music. Remembering that as new instruments are added, they both add new sounds and techniques to the tradition, and also are compelled to mimic, to the best of their abilities, the old sounds (harp, pipes, etc.) that started it all.
The farther you wander from this core, the less like The Music it will sound. But the wide, fuzzy boundary is full of music that fits or doesn't depending on how it's played, by whom, and who's giving the thumbs up or down.
Hope that helps move the conversation forward or at least provides some specifics to pick at.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
The contradictions are a side issue. I'll gladly discuss them elswhere. The impossibility of specifically defining the boundaries is of minute consequence to the question, but I'll gladly discuss it elswhere.
The question, "Does the music matter?" stands. And the vast majority of posts have replied directly. Most "yes" and the odd "no".
I'm not asking, "To whom does it matter?"
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
Does the music matter? The remainder of the question is: If it is played however the heck you want, without respect to those that played and enjoyed it previously and/or the majority of those that currently play it and enjoy it?
I don't think that The Music remains Traditional if you do not take those two items in my extended question to heart.
...and that's OK. We have Flogging Mollies, Dropkicked Murphies and we have Dubbed Chieftains.
...and that's OK, that's cool! Though to be honest I always thought you'd sound more like Jamaican-Celtic Sound System with the "Dub" designation and all that, (Ras mon, Ras) but the techno works too.
...but what I like, and what I try to do, is to keep those two groups of people (past and present) in my head and my heart when I play. I've got enough of a personality where it's going to come out in my music no matter what I do, so I guess maybe I seek some sort of guidance for it. Tradition.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Does the music matter?
JD, glad I could help.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
As for "to whom does it matter?" the obvious answer is that it matters to those it matters to. Fully 99% of the planet's population don't give a whit. Even some people who play this music don't care.
So maybe the real question is, "If The Music matters to you, how do you protect and preserve that while not completely stifling it?"
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Also, I'll cast my vote for saying it only "matters" when change or attrition or dilution or whatever threatens the integrity of the community to whom it matters.
In analogy: Preserving and sustaining the Irish language matters a great deal to most native speakers in Ireland. It matters somewhat less to most non-speakers in Ireland. It matters far less to a sheep herder in Tierra Del Fuego or a rice farmer in Bangladesh.
Would the world (i.e., the sheep herder or rice farmer) be worse off if the Irish language died out?
Is our world worse off if The Music gets so diluted as to be indistinguishable from other genres? Or unrecognizable as what it is now?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Based on my train of thought above, Michael, I don't know if you can separate the two questions--does The Music matter, and does The Music matter to you--as you tried to do in your initial post.
Feel free to tell me I quit making sense half a page up....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Does the music matter?" stands. And the vast majority of posts have replied directly. Most "yes" and the odd "no".
I'm not asking, "To whom does it matter?"
Im sorry, I am genuinely trying to understand your question but it baffles me. Music is subjective not objective. That is a factual statement right? with no people there is no music. [disregarding computers and aliens for the time being]. With no one to make music, and no-one to listen to it there is no music. Music is a human concept and a human construct. How can something that is completely from the minds/hearts of man be objective? Art is subjective. [been here before havent we?]
I know, you dont want to go there.... I give up. Its a trick question, right? .
I like your description will.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
SWF, thanks for your "remainder" of the question: "Does it matter if it is played however the heck you want, without respect to those that played and enjoyed it previously and/or the majority of those that currently play it and enjoy it?"
Yes, this is the gist of it.
Will, you are still asking, "to whom does it matter?". That's not the question.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes, The Music is subjective. But because we humans are the center of our own consciousnesses, we like to objectify our creations.
I think you can argue that there's a corpus of music that is distinguishable from other genres (based mostly on the qualities I outlined above) that we call The Music or Irish Traditional Music. That's how you know you're not getting Greek music or Masai stomp songs when you buy a copy of O'Neill's or Ceol Rince na Eirrhann (sp?).
So if we can at least agree on that, then we can ask, does that distinct body of music matter?
(Still just trying to move the discussion ahead in an agreeable way.)
I'd say it matters to me, and to others who care about The Music. And it matters to people who simply enjoy cultural diversity. Beyond that, the ice gets a bit thin.
We once had a thread on here asking people whether playing the music or playing their instrument (presumably some other genre of music) was more important. If you had to give one or the other up, which would it be? Keep playing Irish trad, but learn a new instrument? Or keep playing your instrument, but never play Irish trad again?
Comes down to the same debate we're having here, eh? On a more personal level.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Michael, I've tried to explain why I think you can't separate the questions. When you have the time, and if you're so inclined, help me understand how to answer your question without answering "to whom does it matter?"
(And I did try to answer your question in my first post.)
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Through a process of pattern recognition, which is better explained by cognitive psychologists, we see things and give them names like "tree," but those things would exist regardless of whether we called them "tree," "fred," or "bob." Earlier socialization and training will determine in which objects you call "trees," but at the end of the day you are using empirical characteristics to figure out what is a tree and what isn't.
Now you can make the argument that Irish music doesn't have the same empirical referents as trees do, as it's entirely culturally constructed. The community of practitioners, and that includes people who just listen to the stuff, designates X as Irish music, as opposed to something else. As I said before, there are boundaries disputes over those definitions but there is a certain amount of pattern recognition that goes on and indeed, is often enforced by the community, that norms are maintained. Will said it well when he said people come to the music with the experience and influence of the larger community. These communitarian designations create a stable institutional form rather than contribute to its destruction.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
Jig, I thank you for trying to understand the question. SWLF understands the question, as do many others who have posted. I know it's not a straight forward question, but it's not supposed to be a trick question.
I'm asking for an exploratory link between respect for the countless and nameless individuals who create the music and the physical act of playing it being not down to personal motivation.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
Box is a tree and a bush.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Does the music matter?
That was in response to jig's post about a dozen posts ago. You guys type fast. LOL. Seems irrelevant now. Oh well.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
I think the "Music" does matter in an historical sense (capital "M" intentional), and those who learn it's intricacies within that historical sense are preserving sound and technique that was not so well preserved by past generations because of technological limitations. This is what seemingly separates the "Music" from the personal. The "music" (with a lower case "m"), on the other hand, does not matter in the grand (somewhat less than macrocosmic) scheme of things and is open to any and all interpretations...
That said, the choice one makes, whether to play the "Music" or the "music," is subjective. It's impossible to separate either connotation of the music from the personal. Whether it "matters" or not is ultimately a personal perspective. There is no getting away from the subjective element.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by gw
Re: Does the music matter?
Michael,
I'd have to echo Will. The music matters to the people it matters to. To you, to me, to countless others. Probably less to Will's farmer in Tierro del Fuego.
On a wider scale, if you live in an epistemological world where the preservation of cultural knowledge and cultural traditions is important and where it is a negative thing when knowledge is lost or a tradition changes beyond all recognition, then yes, this particular genre of music is important.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
There are a lot of things that only matter to a very (relatively speaking) small community of people engaged in that teeny area of practice. But is that alone a reason to not do it or not care about it? Or ask questions of why do it, which you're better off not asking anyway?
(This post brought to you on behalf of GSBTHP, Graduate Students Believing Their Research Has a Point).
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Does the music matter?
So, if I understand SWFL's understanding of the question....
Yes, becoming part of the multi-generational circle of musicians who've created and passed down this music matters--if your intent is to play The Music as part of that circle, and particularly if your intent is to pass The Music on to others.
If the intent is personal expression or just playing music in general, then no, it doesn't matter.
Is that closer to the mark, Michael?
(I could go on and on about honoring the people who kept this music alive and understanding the culutral and physical conditions that shaped this music, etc. Of course that matters. Here, amongst us, on a web site dedicated to keeping The Music alive. But there's a parrallel thread over at http://www.thescreaming.org where what matters isn't The Music but the decline in quality from analog screams to digitized screams in classic horror flicks....)
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
''Seems irrelevant now.'' not at all .
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes it does, and it matters most to non-players, the avid listeners who never learnt to play for whatever reason, who travel the length and breadth of Ireland and elsewhere to hear the music.
I remember when I was about 14 in the late 1960s and could play tunes on a cheap mouth organ. To me, playing traditional music on a mouth organ was a source of embarrassment, why not get a real instrument. (to save many posts about bodhrans that came much later after the whistle, banjo mandolin, banjo and then mandolin)
But to those who loved the music, the preservation of which was a desired goal, even tunes on a mouth organ was to be encouraged. In the late sixties you did not have the thousands who now play, as explained in earlier threads my friend and I, on a whistle and mouth organ, were in great demand.
So the music, certainly in Ireland, in small pockets, has always mattered and was carried on by a select few in each area. In was loved and appreciated by the non-players.
The Irish diaspora carried on a number of Irish traditions to remind them of home, and the tradition spread to a number of countries. TV, radio and "super groups" and indeed super shows like "Riverdance" meant that the tradition became popular all over the world, and not just to those of Irish descent.
So I suppose I am saying yes, it does matter.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does the music matter?
llig, you're very welcome. I also humbly submit that I did answer the question (without meaning to) of to whom it matters. It matters to those who currently play and enjoy it. Whether those that used to, still do, is a question for theologians. However, it seems to me that most of the people that currently enjoy, play, and dance to the Music LIVE (bless them) certainly keep those that came before in mind, and if possible would seek their approval.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes silver spear, your post about pattern recognition is a good one, and your other posts. But the statement: "The music matters to the people it matters to" just feels to closed. I know I'm clutching at straws, but that was the point of the post.
Will, I thought you gave a lovely answer in your first post:
"Some of life's big lessons can be learned by acknowledging our personal humility in the face of something larger than us."
I think that explains how you can separate the questions of "why does it matter/"and "to whom does it matter/" beautifully.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
lovely post bliss. Thankyou
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
Well, then, yes, it ought to matter to everyone. As a way or model through which humans can improve themselves. But other people choose other lessons and other models.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Ah so does preserving the traditional culture of these isles matter? well to some people it does. sadly the great majority seem to accept the tarmacking over of our cultural heritage and the building of a motorway and fast food cafe to be acceptable. But the music is but one aspect of our traditional heritage, one of the few left. And that appears to be receiving the Disney play park treatment to some extent.
What truly is left? what we have now is the remnants of a once great thriving culture . Sorry but I think its mostly gone.... This is a world of Anglo-Saxon domination.
Yes I think 'the music' matters. To me.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
At the end of the day, does it matter if it matters? Just play some fecking tunes, and do it well.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Does the music matter?
This thread is related to the "Why bother" thread, but I think it would more useful if it could be kept objective. The question is, "does THE music matter?" not "does music matter to you?" If you want to reply to the second question, start your own thread.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
So you blame the Anglo-Saxons for what? Who are the Anglo-Saxons anyway? Do you know?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Does the music matter?
I'm going to bed
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
Don't mention it, Mr Llig.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Does the music matter?
I'll try to give Michael something worthwhile to wake up to.
Yes, THE Music matters--THIS Music matters--because it's sooooooooooooooo feckin good! Even if no other music existed, and only this small sodden isle had the tunes, or conversely, if EVERYONE played music--every single person--and we each had our own genre, yet we were all so talented that we could instantly play together, switching genres like flipping a nano switch from 1 to 0 and back again.
THIS music is so ineffably effen wonderful, inexhaustable, personable, soaring, joyous, tragic, soothing, invigorating, and irresistable that it would matter more than most.
And so it does, even in an increasingly digital, global, iTune world.
And that's not just the Guinness talking....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
It matters to me and to countless players whose company I keep (and have kept), to countless players long since dearly departed and to countless players who are just starting out at the music. But that doesn't really answer Mr Llig's question. Does it matter per se?
I would argue that it does because in itself the music is a beautiful thing and who would want to deprive the world of such beauty? The music says things that no other music says - not just similar things in "a different accent", but uniquely particular to Irish music (or at least I've never heard music which can, for example, conjure up so much melancholy where, at face value, the tune is a rollicksome canter). Lose that - or overlayer the music with borrowings from other musics so that we lose sight of its core - and we lose things to say, not just ways to say them.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Micky Finn
Re: Does the music matter?
""The music says things that no other music says - not just similar things in "a different accent", but uniquely particular to Irish music (or at least I've never heard music which can, for example, conjure up so much melancholy where, at face value, the tune is a rollicksome canter). Lose that - or overlayer the music with borrowings from other musics so that we lose sight of its core - and we lose things to say, not just ways to say them.""
Nicely done, that nails it for me.
JD
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by J.D
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes, THE music matters--not to mention its inherent beauty, and its close ties to communal dance, there is the whole participatory nature of an art form where everyone joins in.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Does the music matter?
It matters to me,
My earliest childhood memories are tied up in the tunes my Grandfather played on his melodeon, an instrument now in my possession and which will be passed on to my sons, songs my mother sang, photos of many relatives all who played. Family gatherings of my siblings scattered across the globe with music as the defining factor. Teaching tunes to my sons, giving tunes to friends, playing a tune with my wife in a (quiet moment (rare these days).
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Does the music matter?
Thanks Micky.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Does the music matter?
It does very much matter.
Much in the same way that, say, the Breton Language matters. If it were to disappear, the world and all the people living in it could function perfectly well, and simply use a substitute. But the World would be a poorer place, and we'd be one step closer to homogenous bland uniformity.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Ottery
Re: Does the music matter?
Well the world does seem to be on a quick march to uniformity! So right, we want to preserve our culture against the sweeping tides of 'progress'. Whats left of it. There are numerous pockets of resistance against this trend. Thank god. But the very resistance its self can become a problem . Well meaning people do their best but Its hardly possible to codify what it is we are trying to preserve. Look at food preservation as an analogy... fill the food with preservatives, coat it with wax. use other chemicals to 'neutralise' the first batch and you are left with a poisonous nutrition less façade of the original thing you tried to preserve.
Another problem, though perhaps not so relevant . Look at the way other cultures around the world are being subsumed by MTV culture, How the Islamic cultures are attempting to preserve their heritage, defend themselves from western imperialism. The worry is that they create a pastiche of their culture as a reaction to this 'invasion' . The young think that this is the real thing. A version of Islam far removed from its heritage is propagated as the 'one true way' .
Back to ITM. What are the defining points of this culture we wish to preserve?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
Ottery, I'm not so sure that it would be "bland uniformity". In some ways of looking at the trends recently, it's the opposite, at least as far as music is concerned. Technology has made it easier for people to make music, and the internet has made it possible for people to discover different music to call their own much more easily (as opposed to having it force fed to you by radio, or whatever). So in that sense, we are headed toward more musical diversity. From a distance, that would look more like bland uniformity, because there are fewer big "clumps" of musical style, and styles are being blurred. But in reality, it's more diverse when you look closely at it. (The same does not apply to things like restaurant chains, and such, which ARE headed toward bland uniformity, it seems).
But that relates directly to why I think "The Music" is important. That "clump" of musical style is something that brings people together, with a mostly common goal - to play the music well. And to be able to play the music well with each other, the easiest way to do that is to play it traditionally. It is a community-building activity, which I would say is more important in the big scheme of things than individualistic, selfish diversity.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
The arguments for and against the music mattering are necessarily value-based and therefore very complex. Like Ottery says, the arguments run along the same lines as those for and against attempts to revive dying languages. This music is cultural heritage, just like language, so of course it matters, but trying to explain why to someone who doesn't see its importance is more difficult than it first seems. To someone who thinks "languages and different types of music and even whole civilsations have been dying out right through history, and we humans are still here and surviving perfectly well" the music *wouldn't* matter. People have written whole books on the subject of cultural diversity, specifically relating to language (Joshua Fishman is a particular favourite of mine), some of which have compared cultural diversity to biodiversity (I noticed someone mentioned that earlier). The main argument for language maintenance, though, is that language encapsulates a particular world view, which can't really be said of music, because music is far more abstract in its cultural content. That doesn't mean it's less worthy of our attention and concern, though. However, I'm not sure quite what it *does* mean...
You can try and thrash it out here on thesession.org if you like, but you'll never get anywhere near a satisfactory answer, unless you're happy with a simple "yes" or "no". Maybe if you spent a few years and wrote a PhD thesis on it you might get the answer you want.
My answer's "yes", but the fact that that's my personal opinion necessarily means that my awareness of the issue may affect my personal motivation for playing the music beyond simply enjoying having a few tunes and some beers on a Tuesday night. I don't know, I can't tell how much my individual actions affect - or are affected by - the bigger picture ("the Music" on a macro level of culture-in-society), and I can't be bothered to think about it. Anyway, that's not what you want, right?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
My response to what Reverend says is that diversity doesn't have to be "selfish", any more than community-building activities have to be "important". There's good culture and bad culture, and good and bad community-building activities.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
Oh, I would agree, Dow, but I was referring to the specifics of Irish Traditional Music as a community-building activity, versus the "me generation", that seems to be entirely selfish.
I wasn't trying to make a broad statement about community-building versus diversity...
My point was twofold, that not everything is heading toward bland diversity, and also that I think the community-building aspect of ITM is something that makes it important in the big scheme of things, not just directly to those who play it...
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes, and one of those communities is this one, which is why this thread relates to the "why bother?" thread, and also the "who knows who*?" thread.
* It's "whom", god damn it.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
I'd like to take issue with something you say there, Reverend.
"Technology has made it easier for people to make music, and the internet has made it possible for people to discover different music to call their own much more easily (as opposed to having it force fed to you by radio, or whatever). So in that sense, we are headed toward more musical diversity".
Why does the fact that more people have access to different sorts of music mean 'we are headed toward more musical diversity'? The fact that I start listening to Tuvaluan Nose Singing doesn't increase musical diversity in anyway whatsoever - it was already there! It's a bit like saying that Columbus 'discovering' America increased the number of continents .....
What actually might happen is that rich Western musician hears Tuvaluan Nose Singer, steals idea, sticks it on a track with a techno beat and sells it back to Tuvalu. Ten years down the line they've chucked the nose singing and got hooked on the Techno and Ecstasy! Then it's only a short plunge into the abyss of chucking the community singing in the LongHouse for Saturday night on the sofa with the missus watching the omnibus editions of the X-Factor and the Apprentice.
Also remain sceptical about the idea that 'Technology has made it easier for people to make music' necessarily increases diversity. Think it just means more people producing infinite versions of a very tiny spectrum of music (Well, junk, really).
..... but don't get the idea that I'm some sort of cynic
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Ottery
Re: Does the music matter?
Dow, I think Micky Finn's post is an apt response to your concerns (and the best answer yet). In short, it matters because if we lose The Music, then we lose the ability to say certain things.
The analogy to losing a language runs throughout this thread, and Micky's point shows it's not just an analogy but a genuine shared quality between music and language. The Music enables us to express things that we cannot express without it.
I've seen native speakers of Crow (a tribe here in Montana) at a complete loss for words when trying to translate a concept from their culture into Anglo culture, into English. It's painfully apparent that they have an idea that has no synonym in our culture. Until you gain some (more than superficial) understanding of the Crow culture and language, you cannot fully grasp or appreciate that particular idea.
This Music does that in spades.
Of course, Irish trad music isn't the only "language" that carries such meanings. Most languages and musics do this. That's why there are people who become linguists and ethnomusicologists and run around trying to "save" certain genres from the brink of oblivion.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes, that was what I was hinting at when I said "I'm not sure what it *does* mean". How do you explain to someone what a particular music expresses, especially when it expresses different things for different people? If you can't pinpoint what it expresses, then you can't pinpoint why it matters. You can either say "yes, it matters", or you can go round in circles for the rest of your life and try and write a PhD thesis about it
No amount of talking on this thread is going to produce a satisfactory answer, not even Micky's post.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
In the short-term I think what Pete says is more relevant to our particular kind of music - the whole thing of community-building and group identity. Once you start talking about human expression of abstract emotions it all gets very wishy-washy and poncey, and really quite far removed from the reality of our everyday music-making, which for most of us functions as an excuse to make some noise and chat to our mates and have a drink. In fact, hmm... community-building... why don't we all give up the music en masse and form a big international strip poker club instead for a laugh?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
How do you explain it to someone else? Well, you can talk about draoicht and nyah and the truckly-how. See? It beggars you to wade into the culture and not just stand at the edge looking at your own reflection. There's a whole 'nuther world view beneath the surface if anyone dares immerse themselves.
Of course the best way to "explain" it is to not explain it at all but just play The Music in a traditional way and share that with others. Its highly contagious.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
LOL, Mark, here in Montana we've already combined the two. Here's how it works: first one to fumble a note or lose the beat has to remove an article of clothing. You get to put something back on if you come up with a particularly nice turn into a new tune during the set. Bodhranistas are not allowed to participate.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Ottery, I think that technology has certainly increased the diversity of music. Simply from the fact that people now make music that can't be physically played by a human being. (Some might argue the use of the term "music" in that case).
In a more general sense, I understand what you're saying. People tend to mimic what they like when they're making music, and not that many people are particularly innovative with how they do it.
But I also think that the internet has helped create a broader market for different music in a commercial sense. Artists don't need a record label to become successful, because they can market themselves. The broader market makes more more musical diversity commercially viable, which will inevitably lead to more musical diversity (but generally on a much smaller scale commercially).
I'm not really trying to argue here, I just find the discussion interesting. And again, it leads me to value the tradition even more (but again, that's a 'why it matters to me' thing, not a 'why it matters' thing...)
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
Last time I tried immersing myself in draoicht, it made a stain that wouldn't wash out
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
Mark, that's the point I was getting at exactly. Humans are social creatures, and things that bring us together are a good thing. The Music brings us together - on a small scale, to have some pints and a laugh with our friends, but also on a bigger scale, because I now have something specific in common with people in other parts of the world that I wouldn't have otherwise. I think of that as a good thing too.
LOL, Will, I shudder at the thought!
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
LOL, another thing that sessions and strip poker have in common....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
"here in Montana we've already combined the two. Here's how it works: first one to fumble a note or lose the beat has to remove an article of clothing."
Oo. Wonder whose idea *that* was. That'll be why you're so keen to teach the girls at the bar how to play the music so they can join in your "sessions", then, is it?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
>> The Music brings us together
The other half of that idea being that if we don't share the same values about how the music should be played, then it doesn't bring us together as well. Or in some cases, with some people that I have played with that don't care about making it sound right, it drives us apart.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
and of course you'd teach them badly so they'd make lots of mistakes
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
I like the idea that The Music is such a powerful agent for human interaction. Sure, musicians from other genres can get together and play, and it's possible for a jazz, rock, blues, or bluegrass player, say, to find cohorts in almost any sizeable city around the globe. But what other music has such a highly structured yet laid back, almost lackadaisical and global format for doing so?
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
"The other half of that idea being that if we don't share the same values about how the music should be played, then it doesn't bring us together as well. Or in some cases, with some people that I have played with that don't care about making it sound right, it drives us apart."
Or it makes you *wish* you could be driven apart, like when you're stuck in a session with a really bad bodhran player.
My posts are deteriorating bigtime. Must be time to go to bed!
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Dow
Re: Does the music matter?
Teach them? What a repulgnant idea! Naw, we just tell them how easy it is, hand them a D whistle, and off we go into a set of Gm reels....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
>> Or it makes you *wish* you could be driven apart, like when you're stuck in a session with a really bad bodhran player.
Right... so that's why "conforming to the preconceived concept of what Irish music sounds like" *matters*!
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
So, technology may not (or may) promote diversity, but it certainly can enable the wider appreciation of diversity.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Does the music matter?
Will, you should have handed the Girl At the Gateway Arch a "whistle", then...
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
Nah, she went straight for the "flute."
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Sorry to appear argumentative, but I'm very interested in the idea of technology and progress, in my capacity as 'email serf', which has taken over a much larger part of my working life than actually producing anything
Pete, you say 'I think that technology has certainly increased the diversity of music'. It seems common sense, doesn't it? But actually it may be the case that completely the opposite is true.
Given that we are talking about Trad here on this site, let’s look at the effect of technology on Irish music. Initial technological advances such as the introduction of fiddles, flutes and accordions might be said to have increased the diversity of the sound pallet of the music, though some, notably Seán Ó Riada disagree about the accordions at least ("Most accordian players are so hampered by their choice of instrument as to be unable to produce anything but a faint wheezy imitation of Irish music. And unfortunately this instrument, designed by foreigners for the use of peasants with neither the time, inclination nor application for a worthier instrument is gaining vast popularity throughout the country. The reason for this is mainly, I think, the laziness which afflicts us as a nation at the moment. We would all like to be musicians, but we don't want to take the trouble. It is easier to play notes ready-made for us than to make our own, so we turn to accordians - bigger and better accordians - eventually to the greatest abomination of all, the piano accordian. Nothing could be further from the spirit of Irish music...")
The really big technological impact came with the arrival of the 78rpm gramophone record. Suddenly it indeed became possible for people to discover different music to call their own much more easily! And what happened? Everyone wanted to sound like Michael Colman. Diversity went down the plughole.
Now we have the World Wide Wonder Web.
In the last ten years, what new fabulous new diversity of music has sprung up in Ireland to replace the regional styles destroyed by the previous technology?
Not much, methinks....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Ottery
Re: Does the music matter?
Sessions certainly seem to have a homogenizing effect on the music....
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
''Right... so that's why "conforming to the preconceived concept of what Irish music sounds like" *matters*!''
But who's preconceived Idea of what trad sounds like? the teen who thinks Afro celts is trad or the old boy out on his farm in East Clare? You see we all have different concepts of what 'trad' is.
That is why it behoves us to listen to and respect the old masters. There is actually a wide variety of pure drop, different regional and personal styles, different concepts of what is 'right' . To my mind its best to immerse ourselves in that full spectrum and arrive at our own personal expression of what it all means to us. That personal expression through the medium of this music 'is' trad to my mind. without that there is something missing.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
Jig, I think you answered your own question there. "Listen to and respect the old masters." I would add, listen to the players today whose playing demonstrates that they too have listened to and respected the old masters.
So Afro celt doesn't fit the bill, at least not yet.
And I think you have to go back to my points earlier about this being dance music and sean nos airs, originally composed on a relatively small number of instruments. These qualities are at the core of what it means to be traditional Irish music, as distinct from Afro celt or Techno celt or any other offshoot.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
Um, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, there's room for ***informed*** personal expression within the tradition. But if it's not informed by the tradition itself, then its (naturally) not traditional and it no longer contributes to The Music. It may run parallel or off on some interesting tangent, but it's not The Music.
And we're lucky to live in a time where the tradition carries on, while others are free to experiment and innovate. But that doesn't mean the traditionalists have to embrace all or any of the experiments or innovations.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Does the music matter?
It's an interesting discussion, Ottery. I just (cross) posted another thread to discuss it, because I think there are good arguments to be made both ways
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Does the music matter?
To answer the question, I think you first need to define what the music is. Michael refers to THE music, others specify “The Music”. Will used playing “The Music in the traditional way” as a way of helping to define. If I’m reading correctly, to some, Solas and Lunasa, used as examples above, don’t “qualify”. In the past, some folks here have indicated that Kevin Burke isn’t an “ITM” fiddler. Some argue whether this tune or that tune is part of The Music (THE music), whether playing Nascar fast is the right way of things.
My answer is yes. Music is important, full stop. I don’t qualify, or quantify. It’s all important, regardless of personal preference or abilities.
And Seamus Eagan’s flute playing really floats my boat.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Does the music matter?
Deb, heard Seamus and Eileen on 'dear old Erins isle'? the tape/cd is worth the money for that one track. the rest is incredible. just the two of them.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Does the music matter?
Yes. If it didn't... well, we wouldn't be dropping in.
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by drone
Re: Does the music matter?
Speaking from my own experience playing Irish music as well as ragtime and blues, yes it does matter that you should respect the customs and traditions of whatever genre of music you are playing no matter what instrument you play. Also, you should make a serious effort to learn as much as you can about the customs and traditions of any type of music you are playing whether or not you are performing in front of a paying audience or just playing for your own pleasure in the privacy of your own home.
# Posted on May 22nd 2008 by fauxcelt