Since you asked, here's mine. It's kind of a weird one, for fiddle playing, but I don't care.
1. Do not think dishonestly
2. The Way is in training
3. Become acquainted with every art
4. Know the Ways of all professions
5. Distinguish between gain and loss in worldly matters
6. Develop intuitive judgment and understanding of everything
7. Perceive those things which cannot be seen
8. Pay attention even to trifles
9. Do nothing which is of no use
--Miyamoto Musashi
No, really--I think that turning the whole thing into an exercise in strategy has been helpful, for me, because I am my own worst enemy (bad attitude = bad playing). Now, I know I will never completely master all nine items--or the fiddle, or anything else, for that matter--but it's good to keep working at it, in a positive way.
And yes, when you play a tune--just play the tune. Nothing else. (That's a Musashi thing, too.)
Along the lines of what lazyhound said - I don't have quite as regimented a routine as yours, Shylock, but I know from early trial and error that putting fingering first does not work for me at all, because when I do that, I'm thinking about the tune as a disjointed sequence of notes, which is not conducive to either memorizing the tune or getting it to sound like music. I actually put rhythm at #1 - I need to have a decent idea of the rhythm before anything else, and once I have that, everything else - the individual notes, bowing, ornamentation - takes a lot less effort than it would if I tried working on those other elements first. I've found that when I first start learning a tune, I need to play it way too fast, because if I slow it down in the initial learning stages, I lose the rhythm, and when I lose the rhythm, I lose the tune. Once I've got a fast and horribly sloppy version of the tune going, I slow it down and smooth it out.
Incidentally, this method seems to for the most part take care of working out a bowing pattern or patterns. When I first took up the fiddle and was just getting acquainted with the instrument, I'd play each note on a separate bow stroke. A few months in, I started moving away from that, and the adjustment was an epic struggle. For a few weeks (or months - I forget) I'd use sheet music for the sole purpose of marking bowing patterns, and even still I found it infinitely more difficult to remember a bowing pattern than to remember the notes. Now that I aim to grasp the rhythm first, bowing patterns that do more or less what I want them to do tend to work themselves out pretty organically. Every now and again there's a phrase or two for which I have to (or choose to) devote some conscious effort to working out a bowing, but that's rare now that I start out by thinking of the tune as a whole, rather than a bits of notes that have to be unified by rhythm only afterwards.
Well TDM if you dont mind me saying, thats sounds a very strange way of going about things! A steady slow mistake free , relaxed easy approach is what I recomend. Of course we all have our own approaches and I guess yours works for you but as you've only been fiddlin a couple of years perhaps you might like to experiment with a different approach. If you practice mistakes, you will only get good at those mistakes.
learn to hum/lilt. whistle your tune. Learn it in your head first. once you can do this , the actual mechanics of transferring your tune to your instrument will be a lot easier.
As for bowing patterns. I have never consciously noticed. I just do what I feel right to play the tune.
Of course I reject Lligs method. It didnt work for me. I guess, if thats what he does then it must have worked for him. If.? I sometime get the feeling though he deliberately suggests methods that wont work for some obscure convoluted reason of his own. Perhaps he is genuine?
Anyhow, I have no doubt our methods work for us. They are tried and tested.
As this site is so fond of analogy's I will suggest one. Learning to fight MMA. These fighters systematically and with great forethought work out a training system. In the old days you would get street brawlers competing, not any more. They have no chance. none. Against a well trained athlete.
Its up to each individual how they train and to what end. There are pro's and cons to all methods. I suggest a systematic thorough approach using tried and tested techniques Make your own choice .
I have received a lot of insults on this site for propounding this approach. People seem challenged by my opinions. However I always suggest that you think for yourself. I am secure in the knowledge that this philosophy works for me and for thousands of other musicians. This post will, no doubt, attract a load of vitriol, though of course it would be nice were people mature enough to accept that others have the right to their own opinions. But I wont hold my breath.
Wolfbird says you don't work at music, you play music. All very nice but that seems a rather limited approach. I work day in and day out, as i have for a quarter century. Why, because I enjoy the feeling of mastery, that comes as a result of a systematic and consistent approach. because the hard work put in at home, pays off when the pressure is on.. because I am, proud of the music I play and wish to do it justice. because that is what i have been taught by my instructors in a number of different disciplines.
When children learn to play the violin they press down on the strings very hard. They strangle the bow and the fiddle. I stopped playing classical when I was 13 and picked it back up when I was 28, I'm 36 now. I battle daily with relaxing every aspect of my playing. To be honest, sessions are the worst for relaxing. I feel the need to blast and get all over dramatic and classical with my bowing to make any sound at certain times, which is an error. I'm learning how to generate just as much sound volume with as little as bow as possible, and, after today's session, I'm feeling pretty happy with it. Economy of movement, efficiency in bowing...gag, sounds like a commercial.
TDM, It's possible that you are digging yourself another hole similar to your one where you started out with a separate bow stroke per note. It's an interesting idea, to deliberately play faster than you can in order to find a way where your bowing will feel natural, but there are two problems with this:
Firstly, you will only find bowing patterns that you are already familiar with. Secondly, the fun/skill/artistry of this music is the ability to mix it it up. If you are looking for entrenched ways to play tunes in "patterns", I fear you will miss out on the essence of freedom.
JIG ... as is so often with your postings. you are able to offer some straight forward and good advice:
"learn to hum/lilt, whistle your tune. Learn it in your head first, once you can do this the actual mechanics of transferring your tune to your instrument will be a lot easier."
Though then ... off you go.
Martial arts ... ?
That's just a bit bonkers. There is no vitriol from me for you suggesting it. It's just a bit silly.
It's the context that you put your music in that I just find so alien. You feel you have to "work day in and day out" and have done so for 25 years. You need the feeling of "mastery" for when the "pressure is on".
I just can not imagine any music ever coming out of such conflict.
Llig, point taken about your first reason, that I'm only going to "naturally" settle on bowing patterns that I've found natural in the past. And indeed, every now and again I find myself kicking myself, realizing that I'm bowing Reel X the same damn way that I'm bowing Reel Y, because that's just how things happened to have turned out. And that's what I meant about sometimes going over bits of tunes to tweak bowings - because not *everything* falls into place automatically. So I'll naturally settle into familiar bowing patterns, but by stepping back and making sure that I'm not just mindlessly imposing a single rhythm on every single reel, etc, the set of bowing patterns that feel familiar to me is expanding.
Re your second point - yes, I agree, and I do mix it up, for sure. I find the term "bowing pattern" dissatisfying exactly because it suggests something entrenched - but I need sometimes to distinguish between the direction that the bow moves at various points in the tune (the "pattern"), and the other variables involved in bowing - pressure, speed, etc. The more experienced I get, the better I'm able to spontaneously mix up bow direction and phrasing, and the better I'm able to recover when I occasionally find my bow going the "wrong" way.
And I don't spend much time at all playing too quickly - just as much as I need to get some workable version of the tune under my fingers. I'm talking minutes here, an hour or so at most, not weeks or months.
Jig, nothing I said contradicts your observation "If you practice mistakes, you will only get good at those mistakes," so I don't know what you're getting at there. Your suggestion about lilting a tune first is one I take to heart, and it meshes nicely with my own tendency to put rhythm first. Some time ago, my teacher had me lilt a simple tune that had been in my repertoire for close to a year - Wind That Shakes the Barley. I did, and then went to play it again, and it was immeasurably better than it had been five minutes earlier. Big revelation right there.
best thing i ever read on practice and genuinelly life changing was in a book by jazz pianist Kenny Werner - "Effortless Mastery". his idea is you take the TINIEST of musical ideas - ie even just the 1st 2 or 3 notes..and you practice them over and over until you have completely mastered them. You are, now, therefore, a master. All that is left from now on in is to gradually increase the range of your mastery. So if you can only play one jig, but you can play it perfectly every time, you are a master.its an incredibly positive approach to the whole thing.
Btw, the lifechanging sentence in the book was "You are NOT lazy, you are overwhelmed."
Also, llig, how does your prescription to "just play tunes" avoid the problem of only finding bowing patterns that you're already familiar with? Seems that settling into familiar patterns is a consequence of not thinking about what you're doing, as opposed to a consequence of playing too quickly (which is not without its own problems, of course).
TDM, "just play tunes" in this music includes changing the bowing, the articulation, the timing, phrasing, everything, all the time. The real focus here is on "play," which in its fullest form is a happy, improvisational, innnovative, creative form of exploration. Not merely repeating what you already know. The whole point of "play" is to create new situations for yourself and see what happens. This is as true of playing music as it is of playing ice hockey or soccer/football or hide-and-seek with your kids.
Hakanozel, I like the Kenny Werner book, too. For me, the salient bit was his notion that whether we enjoy our own playing or not is completely up to each one of us. And the sooner you find joy in your own playing, the sooner your playing rises to the occasion.
Don't know the Kenny Werner book, but I read similar advice by BB King, you take three notes and stay with them, looking for all the different ways you can vary them. I've also read, that if you really zoom in on the micro detail of guitar notes, it's impossible to hit a note exactly the same way twice, because there are so many microscopic variables. That's where I'm at - trying to get the juiciest most interesting sound out of the one note, on a particular string and fret.
I can't speak for jig, he's on his own--but for me, Musashi's book is not so much about martial arts, as it is about making progress at something you are trying to get better at doing. Musashi talks about being honest with yourself about your skills, playing/working/practicing every day to hone them, learning all you can to improve your overall understanding of it, etc. It doesn't matter what the skill is--swordfighting, fiddling, whatever. For example:
llig: "I find that the more experienced you get, the better able you are to enjoy when you find your bow going the "wrong" way." (i.e., after years of playing, you are so well trained that you react well, automatically, to the unexpected)
Well of course IO have taken musashi's advice to heart. I have had various copies over the years.
Llig''That's just a bit bonkers. There is no vitriol from me for you suggesting it. It's just a bit silly.''
Ahh, how do you know? you an expert are you? I dont think so, because if you were you would see the similarities. You do know who Musashi was?
Mickray...exactly.
Anyhow Llig its an 'analogy'.Both require very similar learning processes. Along with any other physical skill. The more complicated the skill the more dedication required.
TDM..If you practice mistakes, you will only get good at those mistakes," so I don't know what you're getting at there''
Just wary that I see this done and hear the results. once you can do something slowly and carefully with precise rhythm. speed up. as you attain faster speeds you will find areas that require more work , until you can play at the 'correct' pace.
ITs about timing, not speed, speed is the end result of good timing, and relaxation.
wolfbird. sorry that I misquoted you.''You 'play' music; you don't 'work' music.'' I agree . you are correct. I can only offer in my defense that your explanation was rather short.
llig ''It's the context that you put your music in that I just find so alien. You feel you have to "work day in and day out" and have done so for 25 years. You need the feeling of "mastery" for when the "pressure is on".
I just can not imagine any music ever coming out of such conflict.''
What conflict is that?
I dont 'have to, I do so because I enjoy it. .
I work hard but conversely Its all fun, its all play. even though its also work.
Llig, perhaps you are one of the rare few who do not need to practice, or work at their music, fair enough but to assume that everyone else can also do this is a fallacy. Some of us have to work hard to attain something that to you might come easily.
Sure you play music, but to play music one needs to practice or work at the tunes, turning those dots into something as beautiful as possible, and to do that you need to get the best sound from your bow, (which is also part of my work flow, bowing practice), you need a nice flowing rythmn, you need to throw in your own parts into the music, it's all play sure, but it's the playing part of practice. But playing not as in performing but as in the way a child plays, that's the way I find practice should be, I am not talking about drills, I'm talking about taking the tricky parts and mastering them sticking them back in and playing them fluently.
You need to be at a point where you can be totally relaxed when performing, in which the music flows, becuse you have mastered what it takes to play it as beautiful and as well as you can. This comes from my wrok flow, not just banging out tune after tune, that's not pratice it's not even playing, this music deserves a serious approach in which you can get as much as you can out of it
I can play with my bow for hours just listening to slight variations in sound
I'm no martial arts expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not about fighting people? This is the context I find so alien ... the idea that you can learn to play music from a system that teaches how to be good at conflict.
Jig, it's your attitude: You need the feeling of "mastery" for when the "pressure is on". When you, "pull out the stops it blows their minds." You "work day in and day out" and have done so for 25 years.
This music is not something you have to work at. Playing music with your mates is not like fighting someone. If you make a mistake you are not gonna get your teeth kicked in. If you get it right you are not kicking someone else's teeth in. There is no pressure ... or at least there shouldn't be. Any pressure you feel is of your own making. This is the conflict, your conflict.
No Llig you are wrong. Martial arts are not about fighting people.they are about self control. Superficially, from the outside looking in , yours would be a fair assumption. Of course , a by-product of some martial at training could be an ability to fight but this is only some martial arts and some people. However all martial arts teach self control, be it only attaining a physical skill such as a good uppercut. WE learn to control our bodies so that it will do what we want it too, self control. . I can assure you there are a great number of similarities between these two disciplines.
Skills learnt in a martial art might or might not transfer over into a heightened ability to fight. You could as well say martial arts are about stopping violence.
Learning to play, and playing a musical instrument require self control. The ability to make the sounds you want, when you want. The ability to be one with the moment. The awareness of what is happening around you.
''the idea that you can learn to play music from a system that teaches how to be good at conflict.''
Martial arts are about conflict resolution. be it a KO, conflict resolved. learning to deal with the trials that life throws at us, whatever they might be.
''This music is not something you have to work at. ''
There you go again Llig. making factually inaccurate statements based upon your own limited experiance. You don't know me. How therefore do you know whether I have to work at it or not? What you mean perhaps is that 'you' don't have to work at it.... Fair enough, and? But to assume that others don't have to because you don't is , once again, a fallacy.
I have to work at it for sure, how else Did i attain the skills I have? they weren't with me when i was born that's for sure. They didn't materialise one day while i was shopping.
No I had to sit down and work at it. Sure its not all work. But to reach a level where I can sit in the sessions anywhere in Ireland I had to spend countless hours at it. There was no short cut for me. I enjoy attaining skill. that's what I do. I enjoy passing on the fruits of my labour. that's what I do.
Maybe I should point out that I am not trying to stir anything, or take sides. Shylock asked for comments on how to approach learning the fiddle, and I contributed something from my own experience that I found helpful, for me.
In my case, I got to know somebody who is unusually good at dealing with challenges--yes, in a martial art, but also in life--and he recommended that I study Musashi's book. I think it has helped me with my attitude toward the whole business.
For one thing, I have learned a few things about the usefulness of genuine humility. We're all just learning, without exception. Nobody knows it all. Once you accept that, a lot of pressure goes away.
And there's one thing my mentor never does--argue. He offers his opinion, and you can take it or leave it. If you don't agree with him, that's your privilege.
The need to be right all the time is not a strength, it's a weakness.
But back to the point. There's so much to learn about playing tunes well, I don't even try to schedule those details in some flowchart. I have plenty of opportunities to work on all of them, as I play tunes. And when I'm not playing tunes, I listen to good players and think about the things I want to improve, and also try to learn more about Irish music in general (this Mustard Board has been very helpful in that regard).
Listen, play, keep learning all the time--and remember that you can never know it all, or play it perfectly. But you can have a lot of fun trying to get a little better, day by day. Those few principles are worth more than all the flowcharts in the world. In my humble opinion, of course. ;>}
OK, conflict resolution then. It's still teaching you how to deal with conflict. But there is no conflict in music. Jig, tell me where the conflict is that you wish to resolve in your music?
I've never read Musashi's book. But I reckon that if indeed it has stuff about about the usefulness of genuine humility, I'll wager Jig hasn't either.
Yes, I've spent many many hours playing and listening to music. But looking back, I can't say I've ever worked at it.
I have a Skil. I used it this weekend when putting up a fence.
Just watch your fingers when using one - or there won't be any "Workflow in practicing" any more.
Of course it does, about humility--there's item 1 in the Musashi list, for example.
And I think I agree that music does not have to be "work." If you are really into it, it's more like breathing. A state of being, not a suit that you put on five days a week.
At least you wouldn't have to suffer me on here. Unless I got a set-up like Steven Hawkings. Anyway, let's not go there, the thought of it terrifies me....
Since we often used such a saw to cut firewood logs and I had the job of feeding in and catching the ends, or as they said in the sawmill "the puller-offerer"
Mickray, yours was a good post, but something about it niggled me and I've just realised what it was:
"Some thing my mentor never does--argue. He offers his opinion, and you can take it or leave it. If you don't agree with him, that's your privilege."
I'm not sure where this fits in with, "the usefulness of genuine humility"?
Is it that, if you don't agree with him it doesn't matter who is right, it's not worth arguing over? Or is it that he knows he's right and that if you can't see it, it's your loss, and your loss is not worth arguing over?
I wonder, is anything worth arguing over?
I argue with Jig because I think his attitude is dangerous to the promotion of this music. We both make statements, and the responses are laid out for anyone to read. I don't expect or want people to take sides, merely to listen and debate the salient points. I argue with Jig because I believe his attitude stinks and I'd really rather it didn't rub off on to anyone else.
I challenge jig when he comes out with statements like this one, where he's describing his performance technique:
" ... using all the options available, allowing my nature to be present in my music, sure I might avoid displays of technical virtuosity at first, the opposite in fact , I might intentionally play in a rough style to lower expectations so that when I pull out the stops it blows their minds."
Ah, you spelt it wrong. Skil is the right spelling yes?
Llig''Jig, tell me where the conflict is that you wish to resolve in your music'' Huh? What are you on about. Its called skill acquisition.Nothing to do with conflict. If you recall you mentioned conflict. Its your little creation.I just explained a few things.
techniques for skill acquisition are universal.
''llig;I define work as the antithesis of play''
Well the dictionary defines it as;
1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, esp. as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
6. materials, things, etc., on which one is working or is to work.
7. the result of exertion, labor, or activity; a deed or performance.
8. a product of exertion, labor, or activity: musical works.
So, perhaps that is where part of the disagreement lies. I use the word as intended while you use your own definition. It might make communication easier if you could see your way round to defining the word in a more orthodox fashion?.
I work hard at my music. I am happy with that. Perhaps some people can attain a high skill level without working , good for them . but once again and to stress the point; We are not all as gifted as some people[think they are]
I argue with Llig because he comes out with stuff such as this;
The boundary is not a line, it's (as with most things about this music) a kind of fuzzy grey area. Fiddles, flutes, pipes, and whistles are in. Guitars are out. C/Csharp and B/C button boxes, concertinas, banjos, mandolins, moothies etc, are in the grey area.
Excuse me? Gray area? what is he on about? He regularly demonstrates his ignorance and I pull him up on it. I mean I could go on but just one example serves the point well.
Now he might find some of the skills I have learnt over the years to grate with his personal preference. but I have every right to use these techniques. and concepts that appear to be far beyond him.
There is no gray area. Perhaps in the mind of some small minded people but to suggest that the concertina, I presume he means C#D box , the banjo occupy some gray area within the traditional spectrum of instruments clearly demonstrates he does not know what he is talking about. I mean really come on.... Be real. So is he saying that Joe Cooley and Jackie Daly, Jackie Small and the rest do not play traditional instruments?
Anyhow. pointless really, But I see little reason to let such nonsense go unchallenged. That doesn't come from decades of experiance but from his imagination.
Ah yes, good old dictionary.com. Meaning number 1: labor and toil
And you stopped your copy paste at number 8 on the nouns.
You didn't even get to the verbs. Meaning number 1: labor.
And the synonyms are good: drudgery, labor, toil.
You have to get to meaning number 7 before you get to: achievment. And nowhere in that huge list of meanings does it mention music, not once.
So lets look at "play":
Straight in at number 3 on the list of nouns: exercise or activity for amusement or recreation.
Now sit and read all the definitions of work and play and tell me which has a beter match to what you do with music.
There is no such thing as black and white. Only shades of grey. The boundary is not a line. One cannot say where black ends and grey begins. That was the point of the analogy.
And once again I will stress the point relevant to this discussion. I agree with you that you can attain a high skill level by working at it. But the only way to gain a decent ability to play music is to play it.
Aren't semantics wonderful.....few people would argue whether you 'play' sport or work at it...even though focused practice, skill building etc are part of it.
I agree with Michael. ITM is music you play.
My son plays Grand Theft Auto. He repeats the computer game and it's sequences over and over again, perfecting, honing, building skill, until with three finger movements and a thumb flick he's flown a car through the air and killed two bad guys..and the joy is in the paring back to the simplest movements to achieve the aim....but its still a game, it's still fun for him...it's still play.
As long as practice is play...you are engaged with your heart and soul as well as your brain..........
I think every player has to be his or her own best teacher, and the lesson can change from day to day. So you should try to figure out how you, yourself, want to sound (or improve), and then do what's best. For some, it might be playing a tune; for others, it might be working on some bowings out of the Cranitch book.
I find that if I start out by playing a tune softly and easily, the things I should focus on will reveal themselves, and that's where I should go next. For instance, if I tighten up, then I might look at smoothing out the bowing in a spot. Of if the high notes are missing, then I might do a fingering exercise.
But I agree that bowing and relaxation in general as the key thing. I've found that if my intonation is off, particularly on the high b note, for instance, the reason often is that a certain bowing is causing my left hand to strain, and the note isn't happy. So even when I do the fingering exercise, I'm paying attention to smoothing out the bowing.
If you are middle class or higher...then sure...you can work and somewhere in your work you'll be allowed to play (to learn, practice, improve, get a sense of satisfaction that is about your heart, soul and brain being engaged).
But for millions of other people in other types of jobs, work is toil and there is no play, no satisfaction etc. 100 years ago I would have been one of them. History, geography and luck mean that I'm privileged and am freed from the threat of starvation should I not produce 145 garments this week, or harvest 20 tonnes of grain...and so I have the luxury of choice and the opportunity of play.
I think that someone could spend their whole life playing this music and reach a very high standard and never even have heard of such a thing as martial arts. There doesn't have to be any connection whatsoever.
However, with regard to Musashi and similar folks who fought to the death with swords : any error proves fatal. Which meant sloppy thinking was not permitted if you wanted to stay alive.
Musashi proved that his principles and understanding were correct because they kept him alive through scores of fights. A musician isn't under that sort of pressure. A mistake can be laughed off, or if it's in the studio, just start the recording again.
But there are some useful things for musicians in martial arts philosophy. To fight well and win you need to be completely at ease and relaxed. But how can you possibly be completely relaxed in such a tense brutal situation, where you or the other guy are going to be dead in a fraction of a second ?
That was the basic problem that the Samurai had. They took it to the zen masters and the zen masters explained how it could be dealt with. You let go of self, of ego, so that there is nothing to fear, because you're *already* dead, in a sense. Letting go of self is quite elementary stuff in zen meditation. It's what beginners learn.
That means there's no fear or ego-preservation instincts interfering with concentration. There's just empty sitting. Or, in martial arts, empty movement.
Llig may know nothing about martial arts, but he does know something about that. He knows that playing really well means it's effortless, it's not showing off, it's ego-less...
just like it said in the Transatlantic sessions (which I watched last night) with Aly Bain, Bruce Molsky, Sharon Shannon, Donal Lunny, etc. The guy said everyone left their egos hanging on a peg at the door, to be collected again on the way out. They were there to serve the music, not to play one-upmanship.
Isn't there a problem with that analysis, CurvyFiddle, in that this music was initiated, originated, by those poor people without your privileges, who had to work, and yet still produced wonderful music ?
I think the point of the martial arts stuff is that undergoing intense training over a long time give people a different approach to life and learning. The skills such as sensitivity, awareness and the methods used transfer over into other aspects of life. As you say Wolfbird. Elementary Zen training teaches another approach to life and learning.not better perhaps . just different.
There's no doubt that doing intense training over a long time changes people. It doesn't have to be martial arts. It could be horse riding or deep sea diving or mountain climbing or anything like that.
I probably don't agree with you that zen and martial arts have different approaches. The way I see it, most of the well-known martial arts schools stem back to taoist and buddhist teachings. Some go back to ancient Indian teachings of a similar nature.
I'm not entirely comfortable talking about this stuff in a public forum, because it is so easily misunderstood.
There's levels or degrees of understanding. Let's take it away from music and martial arts for a moment, and look at equestrianism.
Beginners have to learn to get onto a horse and sit there. As soon as it begins to move, they have problems. Someone who is doing advanced dressage at Olympic standard, well, everything is entirely different. They don't ever think about the elementary problems because they've all been learned long ago and become second-nature.
What Musashi is talking about, and what Peter Ralston talks about in Cheng Hsin, and maybe what mickray's guy talks about, is stuff at the Olympic dressage level. For those guys all the stuff you're (jig) talking about has been mastered long ago. They don't care about winning or losing or self-control or mastering techniques, etc. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, long ago. I mean, if you've beaten all comers and been world champion, where next ?
What they're talking about is stuff about the deep principles, the nature of being, the nature of consciousness, the nature of conflict, the nature of event, it's about the practical and theoretical philosophy.
Zen is different from martial arts because it begins at that point. It's interested in the nature of existence right from the start. The insights can then be applied to any human activity.
Did I misunderstand what you wrote, jig ? "Zen training teaches another approach to life and learning.not better perhaps . just different."
I thought you meant zen training is different to martial arts training ?
Yes, I agree, zen is at the core of most of the martial arts traditions.
But there are differences. Zen is about sitting in zazen. Formal meditation is the core. Zen has no interest in jumping about fighting people. It has no interest in playing music either, for that matter. You just sit there, like a stone. All the work is internal.
The way I see it, if the zen practitioner stands up and moves about, you're almost automatically into tai chi or aikido. It's meditation in movement. But tai chi and aikido are not to do with fighting. They are to do with avoiding any need to fight. However, if you practice long enough, they're very effective for self defense.
But it's another big step, from sitting like a rock, to being actively aggressive and attacking, fighting to win a contest, breaking bricks, all that stuff.
The zen master might ask 'why would anybody want to do that, when they could be arranging flowers or making lovely music ?'
Unfortunately, we live in a world where violence and killing has been a fact of life for millennia. As I understand it, Bodhidharma invented the early martial arts forms including lethal moves, because he got weary of having his gentle pacifist monks and nuns beaten up and killed by bandits and murderers.
I don't really agree with your last statement, jig. My point was, that if you mastered techniques and skills and can go no further, the fundamental questions still remain. The basic philosophical questions, like why am I ? what is existence ?
It's really almost impossible to discuss those issues from a zen point of view, with people who are unable to receive the answers that zen offers. It's pointless to try, it just causes confusion. People already have preconceived (mistaken) ideas.
Lucky Shylock--at least we've asnwered his question. To sum: Whether it's work or play, find what clicks for you. If you're not happy with the results, try something different. And most obvious of all--if you want to play this music well, don't waste your time reading diatribes when you could be playing tunes....
"It's really almost impossible to discuss those issues from a zen point of view, with people who are unable to receive the answers that zen offers. It's pointless to try, it just causes confusion. "
Since it is impossible, why don't you stop. Thanks.
llig--my guy actually said that if you don't agree with him, "that's your problem." But he said it so casually, without rancor, I think it amounts to the same thing as "your privilege." And--again, my interpretation here--I would say that he is not afraid to discuss a point, he just doesn't "argue." Never taunts, or says a bad word about anybody. Just says his piece, makes his point, and that's it. He's big on the positive approach--doesn't dwell on the negative, ever.
And although he is not actually a Zen Buddhist, I think he would agree with you guys completely on "relaxed and egoless" aspect of playing. But I think he would say that it takes years of work to achieve the relaxation, and constant vigilence to avoid the egotism. "A thousand hours of practice to learn an art, and ten thousand hours to polish it" is pretty close to an exact quote.
But all this might be more about my problems, than about learning the fiddle. llig is also right, about self-imposed conflict getting in the way.
You see, I have an evil twin, a guy who is egotistical and insecure, and he sometimes jumps in and screws up a tune I'm trying to play. Musashi, and my mentor (who has studied him for about 70 years now), have helped me deal with him, I think.
I like what you say, mickray. But about the years of work and constant vigilance - that's true, of course. But it can also be done instantly. The only place where it can ever be done, is right here and now, in the present moment. All the rest is just talk and ideas.
I may be wrong, but it seems you like impressing people more. I suppose there are those that might be.
Getting back to practicing...I agree with llig. Just play the tunes. It's fun!
I practice by going down the list of tunes I know. I always determine that I will get down to the bottom of the page and then do something else. If I peak at the next page to see what is the next tune, I just have to play it and usually, the rest of the page (c. 25 tunes per page)!
Practice is so much fun that I like working on it. I love my tunes like I like my other human friends. Spending time with them is a delight whether I am working or playing around with them. They never bore me no matter how many times I play them.
yeah, slight confusion. I was agreeing with you, sorry Zazen is the begining and end of Aikido, and other Daoist, arts. Zen in motion. Just like flower arranging or the tea ceramony or Iaido, etc.
Hey fearderg, dont stop him now! its just getting interesting. Just go somewhere else perhaps if the conversation bores you?
Perhaps you might not see the relevance, perhaps it might not even be relevant, but thats where the flow has taken us. Its like changing a tune... If you happen to 'dislike' a tune we have moved too, then that can upset the flow. Its all about the flow. be like a free river, dont dam it with negativeity. Im not saying you are, just making a request.
I ought to correct my remark re likeing to argue. What I do like, is to discuss. It's an art in it's own right, like walking a tight rope. If you engage in gratuitous insults or deliberately cause offence or lose your temper, the elegance and grace is lost, you can wobble and fall off the wire.
There's some fair rare characters that pop up on this page, this stage, - ceolachan, jig, llig, muse, Will CPT, dow, steve shaw, irisnevins, KML, bliss, fiddle4, and a whole lot more, great people, lots of voices that I enjoy reading and learning from, even if I completely disagree.
I try to be reasonable and considerate as much as I can. Which reminds me, screetch was going for major surgery...best wishes, screetch !
I'm sorry if I come across as only trying to impress, feardearg. We all have our peculiar personal weaknesses. I try to be open and honest.
I once thought like Tall, Dark and Mysterious that if I played tunes as fast as possible at home, that when I played them at the session, I would play them better because I would have mastered them at a higher speed. But what I found that I was doing was learning a shadow of the tune, where I fluffed though many of the little details that make tunes special. So now I make it a point to learn tunes slowly and carefully. My former guitar teacher once told me that too many people learn to play mistakes when they learn tunes. One of the mistakes I found I was building into my music sometimes was uncertainty regarding certain notes, which helped lead to those 'fluffing through' moments. So when I am learning a tune, I make sure I master every note in every phrase. Later on I may be flexible, but when learning I stick to one way of playing the tune. It is good to learn to play tunes at a variety of speeds, if you can only play it at one speed, you are a long way from having really 'learned' the tune.
I tend to agree with llig that martial arts analogies don't apply to music, although I did find it amusing to see him stating that there is no black and white, when he has approached many past arguments with an 'either/or' position.
And I agree with wolfbird, it is far better to discuss than to argue!
"I once thought like Tall, Dark and Mysterious that if I played tunes as fast as possible at home, that when I played them at the session, I would play them better because I would have mastered them at a higher speed."
Sorry. I didn't get a lot of sleep this weekend due to the Fleadh. I woke up kinda cranky. Sorry.
I just had to ask myself.....Is this what shylock had in mind when looking for an answer to a serious question? Good shylock made one response, question related, out or the 67 comments submitted.
Unfortunately, I am automatically scrolling to see who submitted comments before I actually read any lengthy submission. Some comments I find myself just skipping after seeing who.
Yeah, feardearg, no problem...if I try to be objective about myself, (which is probably impossible), my biggest weakness, I find it almost impossible to stay on topic. When I was a kid, I failed loads of exams, not because I didn't know the stuff, but because I always answered a different question to what was asked. Still have that exact same problem. My mind gets the question, thinks the answer, then jumps sideways, because there's all this other amazingly interesting stuff over there...
TDM, you seem very defensive... chill. you are still a beginner. You might not like that role, but after a couple of years any advice you receive might well help you to progress. Does it really matter if we misunderstand or extrapolate from your post? We all see things from our own perspectives. but none of us see the full picture.
Albrown, analogies in any field can apply and be legitimate. . they are analogies. Anyhow, unless you are a martial artist how would you know?
As it happens I spent most of my twenties and my 30s training in martial arts and I can assure you that Lessons learnt in the dojo can apply in all aspects of our lives. Now of course you can disagree, but what grounds do you have to think you can offer an educated opinion? I can disagree that the world is round. I am entitled to my opinion but to expect anyone who knows the world is round [roughly] to consider my opinion to bear weight! That is another matter.
How does this all relate to work flow? We have two camps again; those who work at it and those who play at it. I work hard to achieve my goals, I dont however write out lists and chart my progress, though I am assured that this is the most effective method. It probably is, but its not my way. I am more relaxed about my aims. After all we all end up in the same situation. Its not the destination that matters. we all will end up there anyhow. Its the journey. Personally I dont set targets, or dates by which to achieve those targets, apart from general ones . but I accept that it is a valid approach and quite likely more effective than mine. As the zen proverb goes; with one eye on the destination you have only one for the road.
I prefer the slow scenic route to a mad scramble for attainment and achievement.
Sorry, TDM, must have misunderstood what you meant when you said to learn a tune, you play it "way too fast" and start by learning a "fast and horribly sloppy version," and then refined the tune from there. That sounded like some of the things I used to do when learning a tune, which, as I described above, I have since abandoned. If your way works for you, more power to you...
Wolfbird said an interesting one above, that this music was initiated, originated, by people who had to work hard for a living, and yet still produced wonderful music. I just wonder what they'd have thought of Jig's famous quarter of a century of working day in day out at his music?
What is "workflow"? It sounds like meaningless jargon of the type you'd hear Ricky Gervais saying in The Office. What's it got to do with trad music? "Workflow". "Workflow". The more I say it, the more I want to vomit.
Bite me, jig. I posted a single line pointing out that I had not claimed a belief that another poster had attributed to me. You can admit that you were wrong, or you can dismiss me as "defensive" and then plunge forth with a prewritten diatribe, entirely unrelated to anything I've written, about the perils of practising one's mistakes. That after *three* posts of mine offering explanation and clarification of my position, you *still* think that my methods constitute a "mad scramble for attainment and achievement" indicates that you're not merely extrapolating from what I'm saying; you're either projecting, wilfully misinterpreting, are simply daft, or some combination of the three. And yes, inasmuch as communication is concerned it *does* "really matter if [despite multiple clarifications], [you continue to] misunderstand" what I'm saying, because when that's the case, *you are not responding to what I'm actually saying* - you're reciting a script.
And make no mistake, my frustration with you has nothing - *nothing* - to do with any ludicrous notion that I am at odds with my role as a beginner, and everything to do with the fact that you can't be bothered to read before responding.
C'mon, Dow. Surely you remember that famous Seamus Ennis quip:
"First of all you have to learn it, and first you must learn the talk, and then you must learn the grip, and after that you must learn the *workflow,* and then you have the whole lot only just to keep on practicing it."
Yes TDM, I winced at Jig's last posting also. I don't think I've ever come accross a more condesending diatribe.
I'm interested in your approach:
"I've found that when I first start learning a tune, I need to play it way too fast, because if I slow it down in the initial learning stages, I lose the rhythm, and when I lose the rhythm, I lose the tune. Once I've got a fast and horribly sloppy version of the tune going, I slow it down and smooth it out."
My two problems with it, mentioned above, still stand. But I've been thinking about it and I can see it's merits.
There are really two aspects to tunes; the specific order of the notes, and the general shape of them. A lot of tunes, the majority, really only tick one of these boxes, usually at the expense of the other. And there are a lot of tunes that tick neither ... the really bad tunes. But the very best tunes somehow manage to have wonderful shapes to them and have really interesting and subtle specific orders to there notes.
I agree that when learning an instrument it's best to play steady and slow, or your lack of ability might hinder your recognition of the specific orders of notes. But it's hard to grasp the shape of tunes when you play like this. So yeah, give it a go at blasting through it also. Fluff some notes, for the sake of an exploration of the shape of the tune is it doesn't matter for now. (I'd avoid doing it down the pub though)
TDM, do you really think that post was to do with you? the first 3 lines were. then i responded to allbrown, and the general conversation. The world doesn't revolve around you in case you hadn't noticed! talk about paranoia. you did'nt even read the post did you?
''nd everything to do with the fact that you can't be bothered to read before responding''
take your own advice eh?
Llig, talk of the pot calling the kettle black.
What are you talking about? hard to grasp the shape of a tune if you play it slowly? How can that be so? , unless of course you are actually a closet dot reader? If i want a tune i listen to it. I want a tune because i enjoy listening to it enough to play it. Then i figure the notes out and play it..... fast or slow its the same tune with the same rhythm.
TDM. get a metronome. Jeez i dont know why i bother some times. basic concepts and tools like scales, metronome, seem alien to some folk out there.
I also suggest doubletime with your metronome.
''Fluff some notes, for the sake of an exploration of the shape of the tune is it doesn't matter for now.''
Well I suppose its because I love ITM and I dislike the half-truths and inaccurate guff from the likes of Llig. I enjoy intelligent conversation about things that interest me. Your right I suppose I should just laugh at the foolish ways of some people and not try to help them. What do I care? .ps this is not about TDM. though there may or may not be some relevance.
It bugs me as well people with a few years of book learning insulting me. Like that 2/2 vs4/4 argument. Some classical bod decides Reels are in 2/2. Writes it down and now I get people telling me that as though it were actually true and telling me how ignorant I am! .
2/2 can be superimposed upon 4/4 Its an easy mistake to make. But that's what it is. If you want proof its out there. just look[ at Martin Hayes feet. or Paddy malony's feet.]
workflow in practice.
I like the term;.
' flow'.. that's the big word. work, well most of us have to work at it. I think we all do, just some people wish to pretend they don't so as to bolster their ego's. Sad.
Yeah, actually, I'm warming to the idea, especially for someone starting out but it should hold true for anyone. Yeah, fluff some notes for the sake of exploration. It's not like you'll ever really get much out of playing music if you are constantly scared from ever fluffing the odd note.
Though maybe if all you want is labour and toil? Maybe if you take such a Calvinist view of life? Maybe, if you labour and toil for 25 years you could get yourself into a state where you could scare yourself from ever making a mistake. Maybe if you think that playing music is like conflict resolution? Maybe if you think that if you make a mistake it's analogous to being kicked in the teeth?
Yeah indeed. Don't be afraid to fluff some notes for the sake of exploration.
Yes, llig, I was thinking along the same lines, the Calvinist view, but I was thinking Puritanical. Like the white anglo-saxon protestant work ethic (WASP) where you have to suffer to be virtuous, work is good, play is bad, hence jig's nose to the grindstone outlook, practising boring scales, self-control, all that stuff.
It isn't really just a personal conflict between yourself and jig, you're just particles in the cultural field. The conflict is deeply embedded in our culture, right back to the English Civil War, Cavaliers who liked parties and fun and Roundheads who wanted strict discipline. It's a clash of philosophical outlooks.
It's possibly fundamental to the human species. I read that, for baboon colonies, when times are good, plenty of food, no pressures, the colonies are usually ruled by three dominant females, rules are lax and everything is liberal and easy going.
But when times get hard, like a drought or something, the colony gets ruled by one male dictator who demands strict control all through the hierarchy, non conformity is punished.
I guess it's mirrored in politics too, easy going tolerant liberal regimes, and right wing fascist totalitarian dictatorships.
I'd say my childhood classical violin years were total Calvinist Authoritarian Nonsense while my happy adult fiddling years have been pure Celtic Libertarian Joy.
Oddly enough (or not so oddly), which style of music have I 'married' for the rest of my life? Not the shrill evil yelling strict shrew, but the lovely free sweet-voiced easy-going lass...
...and as a side note, you ever seen the interview with Derek Bell on the Water from the Well DVD? He goes into this whole discussion of Eastern Philosophy and Irish Music while sitting with his harp, it's grand, right up the wolfbird alley.
''you have to suffer to be virtuous, work is good, play is bad, hence jig's nose to the grindstone outlook, practising boring scales, self-control, all that stuff.''
Wolfbird. You seem to draw very strange conclusions from my posts.... And Llig, .....dont tell me, you are work-shy hippies?
Where is the suffering? none, I thoroughly enjoy my work. And I enjoy my play. In fact As a general statement of being I thoroughly enjoy my life. Sure I have dealt with bereavement and loss and depression, but I have come out on top. [so far]
Scales aren't boring its your attitude that makes them so for you, a negative attitude. self control is essential in playing music. we control our bodies to do anything, . You have forgotten what it is like to be a baby. To learn to walk, to pick stuff up. All this is self control. All I do is to raise this in to conscious practice. You may not understand but I feel that is your loss. Its about being aware. being alive. I refuse to conform to your dictatorship. I live my own life free of small minded ego trips. Free from people who wish to control me.
He enjoys his labour and toils. If you have the right attitude, you can derive interest from anything, even scales. Self control is essential. He controls his body to do anything. He even remembers with fear what it was like being a baby what it was like to have no control.
We have a thing where we diddle ... we'll play a bunch of tunes, nice and easy, settle in to it. Sit about, have a natter, a giggle. Then someone will say, "lose the head." It works every time.
"You have forgotten what it is like to be a baby. To learn to walk, to pick stuff up. All this is self control. "
How would you know what I've forgotten or remember, jig ? Do you know how to recall your past lives ?
I don't care whether you have self-control or not, or whether you conform or are free or any of it, jig, it makes not the slightest difference to me and my life.
What I'm saying is, that as humans in a culture, we can be divided into those who think that austerity, self-discipline, control, complying with rules, etc, amount to 'being good' ; and at the opposite pole (with shades of grey in between) are those who are sloppy but happy, who think fun comes before 'being responsible', those who resist 'obeying the rules', etc...
Every time a contentious issue pops up here, llig takes one position, jig takes the opposite, and it's noticeable which side of the spectrum they each stand.
I happen to find that interesting. The two of you reflect a feature of the human condition. It's internalised in my own personal psychology too.
'Stay in and do boring maths homework, or, go out and mess about in the mud and get into trouble with parents and teachers'
I don't care whether you have self-control or not, or whether you conform or are free or any of it,wolfbird, it makes not the slightest difference to me and my life'
What I'm saying is, that as humans in a culture, we can be divided into those who think that austerity, self-discipline, control, complying with rules, etc, amount to 'being good' ; and at the opposite pole (with shades of grey in between) are those who are sloppy but happy, who think fun comes before 'being responsible', those who resist 'obeying the rules', etc...
These two classifications are simply your construct,and I personally dont fit in your box at all. your system ignores the reality and depth of life. You really mis-read me through your subjective viewpoint and preconceived Ideas. laughably so. And I dont mean to be insulting just that your impression seems so far off the mark as to be completely mistaken.
I dont take the opposite side to llig, that would just be reaction. Occasionally ,when he makes sense, I agree with him. The fact is though that he is poorly informed on numerous aspects of ITM. But rather than accept that he digs himself even deeper, then starts petty little insult games because he realises he is at the bottom of his own hole.
''boring maths homework'' there you go again, boring. you use the word a lot. I gave up the word decades ago. I advise everyone to do the same. Its your attitude that makes it boring. After all , someone who enjoys maths wont find it boring. You go play in the mud WB, enjoy yourself. I would much rather listen to bach and study a score. I have done plenty of playing in the mud. Its fun for a while but I would rather do something else. You can judge me all you like. I dont care. you are very mistaken but that's your prerogative.
"There are really two aspects to tunes; the specific order of the notes, and the general shape of them. "
Exactly - the local aspect and the global aspect. In order to get a handle on the latter, I need to listen, relax, play around, and just feel the tune out. No type or amount of technical exercises will help me with that part. For the specific order of the notes and other local bits (tone, intonation, yadda), I do need to work - not hours upon hours of scales or arpeggios or what have you, but a fair bit of slow, focused attention to detail. But what's nice is that the two aspects of the tunes play off of each other - the specific notes establish what sorts of rhythms are legal (cf the illuminating hornpipe/reel discussion from last week), and the general shape of the tune dictates what variations make sense.
Another advantage to starting off with the global part of the tune, and not fretting too much about the individual notes at the beginning, is that I end up coming up with variations pretty much effortlessly.
Tut, tut, jig. I think anyone reading your posts, not just me, would come to the same conclusion about your character. What's with all the ego-defense and self-justification ? Why can't you just discuss ideas ? For someone who claims to be so free, you seem to me to be some sort of slave of your own personality, inflexible, dogmatic, patronising, unable to identify or empathise with others...but, of course, that's your prerogative....
I wonder, jig, if you have *ever* had a serious think about why people disagree with you so vehemently, which leads to you having such a hard time on this site ? I mean, unless you're a masochist, it can't be much fun being ridiculed and attacked and humiliated over and over...
I can already hear your reply, all tough and macho, 'not my problem', everybody else is wrong, only jig is right...dear, dear.
Wolfbird It seems quite simple to me, a number of people set them selves as some kind of guru or authority. I am secure in the knowledge that; 1 I am a good hearted honest man. 2 that I really do know what I am talking about.
For example , you have started insulting me, you feel threatened that your mental construct of your concepts of me have been challenged as mistaken. in your own way, showing your vulnerabilities. You are wrong WB get over it. You are transfering your own hangups on to me. They dont fit. I dont want them thanks, sorry but You can keep the $hit you have started to deal out. bye.
Who here has 'humiliated' me?! hah what a laugh, you are serious? ho ho ho 8-:
jig, your wrote: "a number of people set them selves as some kind of guru or authority. I am secure in the knowledge that; 1 I am a good hearted honest man. 2 that I really do know what I am talking about."
So I'm not clear: are *you* the self-appointed guru? It sure sounds like that's what you're saying.
The rest of us here just pass along what others (and experience) have taught us. We're not trying to convince anyone that ours is the one true way.
no , still getting used to typing and computers that have a nasty habit of deleting whole sentences! sorry, getting there now in that i am a beginer for sure.
The full statement was meant to be ;Wolfbird It seems quite simple to me, a number of people set them selves as some kind of guru or authority. They feel challanged when i question their statements. When they are in fact wrong but are to proud to admit it they either slope off hoping no one will notice their gaffe or resort to insults and character assassination. so, no i have no problem with that kind of behavior. they are the lesser for resorting to it.
.I am secure in the knowledge that; 1 I am a good hearted honest man. 2 that I really do know what I am talking about.
Will, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. In fact I would say that some people here are doing exactly what you say you are not doing.... If that is not the case re Llig and the dots. you and scales, then why do you get so upset when i offer a counter argument?
That is exactly what you are doing .IMO. funny how you should mention it...
Dots are not the 'true way to play 'the music'
scales are 'unnecessary ' etc etc.
When i argue against this 'one true way' i get insulted,. This simply goes to show that the insulter's have lost the argument. otherwise why would they resort to such childish and immature behaviour? however perhaps I am mistaken,.
Some people doubt whether I really have been playing ITM for 25 yrs and guitar for34. I intend to post some stuff some day , but its not a priority. I however know the truth of that statement. |So i don't feel challenged.. besides I know that every day I get better . whats the hurry? Anyone who really knows their stuff already realises that I know mine.
Prove it. It's all you can do to salvage what's left, if anything, of your credibility, which has been in tatters here for months. Sound clips. You can blather on all you like about how long you've been at it but the only way you'll convince anyone that you can actually play anything is to prove it. It's simple. Put up the clips. Shut us all up. Just make sure you tell us which of your multifarious manifestations is actually playing them, though.
You don't care what anybody thinks. Your super-ego is so bloated that it swallows up all the area around you that would otherwise be the room for other people's opinions.
Sound clips. You really can't play anything, can you!
Interesting. Two of the people you start fights with most around here are superb musicians. Far too clever to stick blu-tack on their fiddles or spend hours practising scales and arpeggios.
Workflow in practicing
Workflow in practicing
I have the following:
1. Fingering tune
2. rythmn
3. grace notes
4. bowing
5.Playing tune and readjustments
Anyone got ideas comments
Regards
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Workflow in practicing
eschew redundant disciplines such as workflow and any other notions of organisation and just play tunes.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
You 'play' music; you don't 'work' music...
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
I'm far too busy making up and filling in workflow spreadsheets to be doing any practice.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
Since you asked, here's mine. It's kind of a weird one, for fiddle playing, but I don't care.
1. Do not think dishonestly
2. The Way is in training
3. Become acquainted with every art
4. Know the Ways of all professions
5. Distinguish between gain and loss in worldly matters
6. Develop intuitive judgment and understanding of everything
7. Perceive those things which cannot be seen
8. Pay attention even to trifles
9. Do nothing which is of no use
--Miyamoto Musashi
No, really--I think that turning the whole thing into an exercise in strategy has been helpful, for me, because I am my own worst enemy (bad attitude = bad playing). Now, I know I will never completely master all nine items--or the fiddle, or anything else, for that matter--but it's good to keep working at it, in a positive way.
And yes, when you play a tune--just play the tune. Nothing else. (That's a Musashi thing, too.)
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by mickray
Re: Workflow in practicing
Shylock, I'd be inclined to put bowing at no 1 - the rhythm and everything else will be difficult to get right if the bowing's not spot on.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Workflow in practicing
Along the lines of what lazyhound said - I don't have quite as regimented a routine as yours, Shylock, but I know from early trial and error that putting fingering first does not work for me at all, because when I do that, I'm thinking about the tune as a disjointed sequence of notes, which is not conducive to either memorizing the tune or getting it to sound like music. I actually put rhythm at #1 - I need to have a decent idea of the rhythm before anything else, and once I have that, everything else - the individual notes, bowing, ornamentation - takes a lot less effort than it would if I tried working on those other elements first. I've found that when I first start learning a tune, I need to play it way too fast, because if I slow it down in the initial learning stages, I lose the rhythm, and when I lose the rhythm, I lose the tune. Once I've got a fast and horribly sloppy version of the tune going, I slow it down and smooth it out.
Incidentally, this method seems to for the most part take care of working out a bowing pattern or patterns. When I first took up the fiddle and was just getting acquainted with the instrument, I'd play each note on a separate bow stroke. A few months in, I started moving away from that, and the adjustment was an epic struggle. For a few weeks (or months - I forget) I'd use sheet music for the sole purpose of marking bowing patterns, and even still I found it infinitely more difficult to remember a bowing pattern than to remember the notes. Now that I aim to grasp the rhythm first, bowing patterns that do more or less what I want them to do tend to work themselves out pretty organically. Every now and again there's a phrase or two for which I have to (or choose to) devote some conscious effort to working out a bowing, but that's rare now that I start out by thinking of the tune as a whole, rather than a bits of notes that have to be unified by rhythm only afterwards.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Workflow in practicing
Well TDM if you dont mind me saying, thats sounds a very strange way of going about things! A steady slow mistake free , relaxed easy approach is what I recomend. Of course we all have our own approaches and I guess yours works for you but as you've only been fiddlin a couple of years perhaps you might like to experiment with a different approach. If you practice mistakes, you will only get good at those mistakes.
learn to hum/lilt. whistle your tune. Learn it in your head first. once you can do this , the actual mechanics of transferring your tune to your instrument will be a lot easier.
As for bowing patterns. I have never consciously noticed. I just do what I feel right to play the tune.
Of course I reject Lligs method. It didnt work for me. I guess, if thats what he does then it must have worked for him. If.? I sometime get the feeling though he deliberately suggests methods that wont work for some obscure convoluted reason of his own. Perhaps he is genuine?
Anyhow, I have no doubt our methods work for us. They are tried and tested.
As this site is so fond of analogy's I will suggest one. Learning to fight MMA. These fighters systematically and with great forethought work out a training system. In the old days you would get street brawlers competing, not any more. They have no chance. none. Against a well trained athlete.
Its up to each individual how they train and to what end. There are pro's and cons to all methods. I suggest a systematic thorough approach using tried and tested techniques Make your own choice .
I have received a lot of insults on this site for propounding this approach. People seem challenged by my opinions. However I always suggest that you think for yourself. I am secure in the knowledge that this philosophy works for me and for thousands of other musicians. This post will, no doubt, attract a load of vitriol, though of course it would be nice were people mature enough to accept that others have the right to their own opinions. But I wont hold my breath.
Wolfbird says you don't work at music, you play music. All very nice but that seems a rather limited approach. I work day in and day out, as i have for a quarter century. Why, because I enjoy the feeling of mastery, that comes as a result of a systematic and consistent approach. because the hard work put in at home, pays off when the pressure is on.. because I am, proud of the music I play and wish to do it justice. because that is what i have been taught by my instructors in a number of different disciplines.
To each their own.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
mmmm ... trifles
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by Bren
Re: Workflow in practicing
Shylock, here's what I wish somebody would have told me when I started playing the fiddle: RELAX.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Workflow in practicing
RELAX #1.
When children learn to play the violin they press down on the strings very hard. They strangle the bow and the fiddle. I stopped playing classical when I was 13 and picked it back up when I was 28, I'm 36 now. I battle daily with relaxing every aspect of my playing. To be honest, sessions are the worst for relaxing. I feel the need to blast and get all over dramatic and classical with my bowing to make any sound at certain times, which is an error. I'm learning how to generate just as much sound volume with as little as bow as possible, and, after today's session, I'm feeling pretty happy with it. Economy of movement, efficiency in bowing...gag, sounds like a commercial.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Workflow in practicing
...and if that doesn't work, I'm grabbing a Samurai sword and going all Miyamoto on it.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Workflow in practicing
TDM, It's possible that you are digging yourself another hole similar to your one where you started out with a separate bow stroke per note. It's an interesting idea, to deliberately play faster than you can in order to find a way where your bowing will feel natural, but there are two problems with this:
Firstly, you will only find bowing patterns that you are already familiar with. Secondly, the fun/skill/artistry of this music is the ability to mix it it up. If you are looking for entrenched ways to play tunes in "patterns", I fear you will miss out on the essence of freedom.
JIG ... as is so often with your postings. you are able to offer some straight forward and good advice:
"learn to hum/lilt, whistle your tune. Learn it in your head first, once you can do this the actual mechanics of transferring your tune to your instrument will be a lot easier."
Though then ... off you go.
Martial arts ... ?
That's just a bit bonkers. There is no vitriol from me for you suggesting it. It's just a bit silly.
It's the context that you put your music in that I just find so alien. You feel you have to "work day in and day out" and have done so for 25 years. You need the feeling of "mastery" for when the "pressure is on".
I just can not imagine any music ever coming out of such conflict.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
jig, you misquoted me..."Wolfbird says you don't work at music, you play music."
Does anybody ever say, "I'm off down the pub to 'work' some music ?" Or, "I'm staying in tonight to 'work' some music ?"
The verb used is 'play', not 'work'.
'work at' is something else, a subtly different meaning.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
Llig, point taken about your first reason, that I'm only going to "naturally" settle on bowing patterns that I've found natural in the past. And indeed, every now and again I find myself kicking myself, realizing that I'm bowing Reel X the same damn way that I'm bowing Reel Y, because that's just how things happened to have turned out. And that's what I meant about sometimes going over bits of tunes to tweak bowings - because not *everything* falls into place automatically. So I'll naturally settle into familiar bowing patterns, but by stepping back and making sure that I'm not just mindlessly imposing a single rhythm on every single reel, etc, the set of bowing patterns that feel familiar to me is expanding.
Re your second point - yes, I agree, and I do mix it up, for sure. I find the term "bowing pattern" dissatisfying exactly because it suggests something entrenched - but I need sometimes to distinguish between the direction that the bow moves at various points in the tune (the "pattern"), and the other variables involved in bowing - pressure, speed, etc. The more experienced I get, the better I'm able to spontaneously mix up bow direction and phrasing, and the better I'm able to recover when I occasionally find my bow going the "wrong" way.
And I don't spend much time at all playing too quickly - just as much as I need to get some workable version of the tune under my fingers. I'm talking minutes here, an hour or so at most, not weeks or months.
Jig, nothing I said contradicts your observation "If you practice mistakes, you will only get good at those mistakes," so I don't know what you're getting at there. Your suggestion about lilting a tune first is one I take to heart, and it meshes nicely with my own tendency to put rhythm first. Some time ago, my teacher had me lilt a simple tune that had been in my repertoire for close to a year - Wind That Shakes the Barley. I did, and then went to play it again, and it was immeasurably better than it had been five minutes earlier. Big revelation right there.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Workflow in practicing
I find that the more experienced you get, the better able you are to enjoy when you find your bow going the "wrong" way.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
best thing i ever read on practice and genuinelly life changing was in a book by jazz pianist Kenny Werner - "Effortless Mastery". his idea is you take the TINIEST of musical ideas - ie even just the 1st 2 or 3 notes..and you practice them over and over until you have completely mastered them. You are, now, therefore, a master. All that is left from now on in is to gradually increase the range of your mastery. So if you can only play one jig, but you can play it perfectly every time, you are a master.its an incredibly positive approach to the whole thing.
Btw, the lifechanging sentence in the book was "You are NOT lazy, you are overwhelmed."
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Workflow in practicing
Also, llig, how does your prescription to "just play tunes" avoid the problem of only finding bowing patterns that you're already familiar with? Seems that settling into familiar patterns is a consequence of not thinking about what you're doing, as opposed to a consequence of playing too quickly (which is not without its own problems, of course).
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Workflow in practicing
TDM, "just play tunes" in this music includes changing the bowing, the articulation, the timing, phrasing, everything, all the time. The real focus here is on "play," which in its fullest form is a happy, improvisational, innnovative, creative form of exploration. Not merely repeating what you already know. The whole point of "play" is to create new situations for yourself and see what happens. This is as true of playing music as it is of playing ice hockey or soccer/football or hide-and-seek with your kids.
Hakanozel, I like the Kenny Werner book, too. For me, the salient bit was his notion that whether we enjoy our own playing or not is completely up to each one of us. And the sooner you find joy in your own playing, the sooner your playing rises to the occasion.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Workflow in practicing
Don't know the Kenny Werner book, but I read similar advice by BB King, you take three notes and stay with them, looking for all the different ways you can vary them. I've also read, that if you really zoom in on the micro detail of guitar notes, it's impossible to hit a note exactly the same way twice, because there are so many microscopic variables. That's where I'm at - trying to get the juiciest most interesting sound out of the one note, on a particular string and fret.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
I can't speak for jig, he's on his own--but for me, Musashi's book is not so much about martial arts, as it is about making progress at something you are trying to get better at doing. Musashi talks about being honest with yourself about your skills, playing/working/practicing every day to hone them, learning all you can to improve your overall understanding of it, etc. It doesn't matter what the skill is--swordfighting, fiddling, whatever. For example:
llig: "I find that the more experienced you get, the better able you are to enjoy when you find your bow going the "wrong" way." (i.e., after years of playing, you are so well trained that you react well, automatically, to the unexpected)
Musashi: "Teach your body strategy." (same thing)
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by mickray
Re: Workflow in practicing
Well of course IO have taken musashi's advice to heart. I have had various copies over the years.
Llig''That's just a bit bonkers. There is no vitriol from me for you suggesting it. It's just a bit silly.''
Ahh, how do you know? you an expert are you? I dont think so, because if you were you would see the similarities. You do know who Musashi was?
Mickray...exactly.
Anyhow Llig its an 'analogy'.Both require very similar learning processes. Along with any other physical skill. The more complicated the skill the more dedication required.
TDM..If you practice mistakes, you will only get good at those mistakes," so I don't know what you're getting at there''
Just wary that I see this done and hear the results. once you can do something slowly and carefully with precise rhythm. speed up. as you attain faster speeds you will find areas that require more work , until you can play at the 'correct' pace.
ITs about timing, not speed, speed is the end result of good timing, and relaxation.
wolfbird. sorry that I misquoted you.''You 'play' music; you don't 'work' music.'' I agree . you are correct. I can only offer in my defense that your explanation was rather short.
llig ''It's the context that you put your music in that I just find so alien. You feel you have to "work day in and day out" and have done so for 25 years. You need the feeling of "mastery" for when the "pressure is on".
I just can not imagine any music ever coming out of such conflict.''
What conflict is that?
I dont 'have to, I do so because I enjoy it. .
I work hard but conversely Its all fun, its all play. even though its also work.
Llig, perhaps you are one of the rare few who do not need to practice, or work at their music, fair enough but to assume that everyone else can also do this is a fallacy. Some of us have to work hard to attain something that to you might come easily.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Sure you play music, but to play music one needs to practice or work at the tunes, turning those dots into something as beautiful as possible, and to do that you need to get the best sound from your bow, (which is also part of my work flow, bowing practice), you need a nice flowing rythmn, you need to throw in your own parts into the music, it's all play sure, but it's the playing part of practice. But playing not as in performing but as in the way a child plays, that's the way I find practice should be, I am not talking about drills, I'm talking about taking the tricky parts and mastering them sticking them back in and playing them fluently.
You need to be at a point where you can be totally relaxed when performing, in which the music flows, becuse you have mastered what it takes to play it as beautiful and as well as you can. This comes from my wrok flow, not just banging out tune after tune, that's not pratice it's not even playing, this music deserves a serious approach in which you can get as much as you can out of it
I can play with my bow for hours just listening to slight variations in sound
Opinions?
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Workflow in practicing
I'm no martial arts expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not about fighting people? This is the context I find so alien ... the idea that you can learn to play music from a system that teaches how to be good at conflict.
Jig, it's your attitude: You need the feeling of "mastery" for when the "pressure is on". When you, "pull out the stops it blows their minds." You "work day in and day out" and have done so for 25 years.
This music is not something you have to work at. Playing music with your mates is not like fighting someone. If you make a mistake you are not gonna get your teeth kicked in. If you get it right you are not kicking someone else's teeth in. There is no pressure ... or at least there shouldn't be. Any pressure you feel is of your own making. This is the conflict, your conflict.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
No Llig you are wrong. Martial arts are not about fighting people.they are about self control. Superficially, from the outside looking in , yours would be a fair assumption. Of course , a by-product of some martial at training could be an ability to fight but this is only some martial arts and some people. However all martial arts teach self control, be it only attaining a physical skill such as a good uppercut. WE learn to control our bodies so that it will do what we want it too, self control. . I can assure you there are a great number of similarities between these two disciplines.
Skills learnt in a martial art might or might not transfer over into a heightened ability to fight. You could as well say martial arts are about stopping violence.
Learning to play, and playing a musical instrument require self control. The ability to make the sounds you want, when you want. The ability to be one with the moment. The awareness of what is happening around you.
''the idea that you can learn to play music from a system that teaches how to be good at conflict.''
Martial arts are about conflict resolution. be it a KO, conflict resolved.
learning to deal with the trials that life throws at us, whatever they might be.
''This music is not something you have to work at. ''
There you go again Llig. making factually inaccurate statements based upon your own limited experiance. You don't know me. How therefore do you know whether I have to work at it or not? What you mean perhaps is that 'you' don't have to work at it.... Fair enough, and? But to assume that others don't have to because you don't is , once again, a fallacy.
I have to work at it for sure, how else Did i attain the skills I have? they weren't with me when i was born that's for sure. They didn't materialise one day while i was shopping.
No I had to sit down and work at it. Sure its not all work. But to reach a level where I can sit in the sessions anywhere in Ireland I had to spend countless hours at it. There was no short cut for me. I enjoy attaining skill. that's what I do. I enjoy passing on the fruits of my labour. that's what I do.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
I bought a skill saw when I was shopping in Argos.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
Maybe I should point out that I am not trying to stir anything, or take sides. Shylock asked for comments on how to approach learning the fiddle, and I contributed something from my own experience that I found helpful, for me.
In my case, I got to know somebody who is unusually good at dealing with challenges--yes, in a martial art, but also in life--and he recommended that I study Musashi's book. I think it has helped me with my attitude toward the whole business.
For one thing, I have learned a few things about the usefulness of genuine humility. We're all just learning, without exception. Nobody knows it all. Once you accept that, a lot of pressure goes away.
And there's one thing my mentor never does--argue. He offers his opinion, and you can take it or leave it. If you don't agree with him, that's your privilege.
The need to be right all the time is not a strength, it's a weakness.
But back to the point. There's so much to learn about playing tunes well, I don't even try to schedule those details in some flowchart. I have plenty of opportunities to work on all of them, as I play tunes. And when I'm not playing tunes, I listen to good players and think about the things I want to improve, and also try to learn more about Irish music in general (this Mustard Board has been very helpful in that regard).
Listen, play, keep learning all the time--and remember that you can never know it all, or play it perfectly. But you can have a lot of fun trying to get a little better, day by day. Those few principles are worth more than all the flowcharts in the world. In my humble opinion, of course. ;>}
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by mickray
Re: Workflow in practicing
OK, conflict resolution then. It's still teaching you how to deal with conflict. But there is no conflict in music. Jig, tell me where the conflict is that you wish to resolve in your music?
I've never read Musashi's book. But I reckon that if indeed it has stuff about about the usefulness of genuine humility, I'll wager Jig hasn't either.
Yes, I've spent many many hours playing and listening to music. But looking back, I can't say I've ever worked at it.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
depends how you define "work"
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
'skill saw' no such thing!. Well not in the Argos catalogue anyhow.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
I define work as the antithesis of play
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
http://www.alamy.com/stock_photography/3/1/DigitalVues/A2BXTA.html
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
Skill saw is a generic nickname in the building trade for a circular saw, even although they are now made by Black and Decker, Bosch and so on.
http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1500001001&langId=-1&searchTerms=circular+saw&Submit=GO+%3E
Skil was the first company to bring one out so the name stuck. Skil Circular Saws are still regarded as the best, the gold standard
http://www.skiltools.com/en/AllTools/Category/default.html?cid=192162
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
I have a Skil. I used it this weekend when putting up a fence.
Just watch your fingers when using one - or there won't be any "Workflow in practicing" any more.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
Of course it does, about humility--there's item 1 in the Musashi list, for example.
And I think I agree that music does not have to be "work." If you are really into it, it's more like breathing. A state of being, not a suit that you put on five days a week.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by mickray
Re: Workflow in practicing
you could always take up moothie Danny. Or be like that Hawaiian feller who has a prosthetic slide attachment for playing the Hawaiian steel guitar
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Bren
Re: Workflow in practicing
At least you wouldn't have to suffer me on here. Unless I got a set-up like Steven Hawkings. Anyway, let's not go there, the thought of it terrifies me....
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
This Robert Frost poem used to terrify me as a kid:
http://www.internal.org/view_poem.phtml?poemID=109
Since we often used such a saw to cut firewood logs and I had the job of feeding in and catching the ends, or as they said in the sawmill "the puller-offerer"
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Bren
Re: Workflow in practicing
Mickray, yours was a good post, but something about it niggled me and I've just realised what it was:
"Some thing my mentor never does--argue. He offers his opinion, and you can take it or leave it. If you don't agree with him, that's your privilege."
I'm not sure where this fits in with, "the usefulness of genuine humility"?
Is it that, if you don't agree with him it doesn't matter who is right, it's not worth arguing over? Or is it that he knows he's right and that if you can't see it, it's your loss, and your loss is not worth arguing over?
I wonder, is anything worth arguing over?
I argue with Jig because I think his attitude is dangerous to the promotion of this music. We both make statements, and the responses are laid out for anyone to read. I don't expect or want people to take sides, merely to listen and debate the salient points. I argue with Jig because I believe his attitude stinks and I'd really rather it didn't rub off on to anyone else.
I challenge jig when he comes out with statements like this one, where he's describing his performance technique:
" ... using all the options available, allowing my nature to be present in my music, sure I might avoid displays of technical virtuosity at first, the opposite in fact , I might intentionally play in a rough style to lower expectations so that when I pull out the stops it blows their minds."
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
Ah, you spelt it wrong. Skil is the right spelling yes?
Llig''Jig, tell me where the conflict is that you wish to resolve in your music'' Huh? What are you on about. Its called skill acquisition.Nothing to do with conflict. If you recall you mentioned conflict. Its your little creation.I just explained a few things.
techniques for skill acquisition are universal.
''llig;I define work as the antithesis of play''
Well the dictionary defines it as;
1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, esp. as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
6. materials, things, etc., on which one is working or is to work.
7. the result of exertion, labor, or activity; a deed or performance.
8. a product of exertion, labor, or activity: musical works.
So, perhaps that is where part of the disagreement lies. I use the word as intended while you use your own definition. It might make communication easier if you could see your way round to defining the word in a more orthodox fashion?.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
I work hard at my music. I am happy with that. Perhaps some people can attain a high skill level without working , good for them . but once again and to stress the point; We are not all as gifted as some people[think they are
]
I argue with Llig because he comes out with stuff such as this;
The boundary is not a line, it's (as with most things about this music) a kind of fuzzy grey area. Fiddles, flutes, pipes, and whistles are in. Guitars are out. C/Csharp and B/C button boxes, concertinas, banjos, mandolins, moothies etc, are in the grey area.
Excuse me? Gray area? what is he on about? He regularly demonstrates his ignorance and I pull him up on it. I mean I could go on but just one example serves the point well.
Now he might find some of the skills I have learnt over the years to grate with his personal preference. but I have every right to use these techniques. and concepts that appear to be far beyond him.
There is no gray area. Perhaps in the mind of some small minded people but to suggest that the concertina, I presume he means C#D box , the banjo occupy some gray area within the traditional spectrum of instruments clearly demonstrates he does not know what he is talking about. I mean really come on.... Be real. So is he saying that Joe Cooley and Jackie Daly, Jackie Small and the rest do not play traditional instruments?
Anyhow. pointless really, But I see little reason to let such nonsense go unchallenged. That doesn't come from decades of experiance but from his imagination.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Ah yes, good old dictionary.com. Meaning number 1: labor and toil
And you stopped your copy paste at number 8 on the nouns.
You didn't even get to the verbs. Meaning number 1: labor.
And the synonyms are good: drudgery, labor, toil.
You have to get to meaning number 7 before you get to: achievment. And nowhere in that huge list of meanings does it mention music, not once.
So lets look at "play":
Straight in at number 3 on the list of nouns: exercise or activity for amusement or recreation.
Now sit and read all the definitions of work and play and tell me which has a beter match to what you do with music.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
There is no such thing as black and white. Only shades of grey. The boundary is not a line. One cannot say where black ends and grey begins. That was the point of the analogy.
And once again I will stress the point relevant to this discussion. I agree with you that you can attain a high skill level by working at it. But the only way to gain a decent ability to play music is to play it.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
Well I do both, why would I have to choose.? . learning to cran took time, dedication and persistence. now I play with it.
Llig, what analogy are you referring to?
And this;There is no such thing as black and white. Only shades of grey''
What are you talking about? paint?
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
sigh
Anyhow, its pointless arguing with you . you are always right. Even when you are wrong.
be happy.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Aren't semantics wonderful.....few people would argue whether you 'play' sport or work at it...even though focused practice, skill building etc are part of it.
I agree with Michael. ITM is music you play.
My son plays Grand Theft Auto. He repeats the computer game and it's sequences over and over again, perfecting, honing, building skill, until with three finger movements and a thumb flick he's flown a car through the air and killed two bad guys..and the joy is in the paring back to the simplest movements to achieve the aim....but its still a game, it's still fun for him...it's still play.
As long as practice is play...you are engaged with your heart and soul as well as your brain..........
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Workflow in practicing
Are you then saying that work can not engage heart, soul and brain?
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
I think every player has to be his or her own best teacher, and the lesson can change from day to day. So you should try to figure out how you, yourself, want to sound (or improve), and then do what's best. For some, it might be playing a tune; for others, it might be working on some bowings out of the Cranitch book.
I find that if I start out by playing a tune softly and easily, the things I should focus on will reveal themselves, and that's where I should go next. For instance, if I tighten up, then I might look at smoothing out the bowing in a spot. Of if the high notes are missing, then I might do a fingering exercise.
But I agree that bowing and relaxation in general as the key thing. I've found that if my intonation is off, particularly on the high b note, for instance, the reason often is that a certain bowing is causing my left hand to strain, and the note isn't happy. So even when I do the fingering exercise, I'm paying attention to smoothing out the bowing.
Jim
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Jmbu
Re: Workflow in practicing
If you are middle class or higher...then sure...you can work and somewhere in your work you'll be allowed to play (to learn, practice, improve, get a sense of satisfaction that is about your heart, soul and brain being engaged).
But for millions of other people in other types of jobs, work is toil and there is no play, no satisfaction etc. 100 years ago I would have been one of them. History, geography and luck mean that I'm privileged and am freed from the threat of starvation should I not produce 145 garments this week, or harvest 20 tonnes of grain...and so I have the luxury of choice and the opportunity of play.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Workflow in practicing
I think that someone could spend their whole life playing this music and reach a very high standard and never even have heard of such a thing as martial arts. There doesn't have to be any connection whatsoever.
However, with regard to Musashi and similar folks who fought to the death with swords : any error proves fatal. Which meant sloppy thinking was not permitted if you wanted to stay alive.
Musashi proved that his principles and understanding were correct because they kept him alive through scores of fights. A musician isn't under that sort of pressure. A mistake can be laughed off, or if it's in the studio, just start the recording again.
But there are some useful things for musicians in martial arts philosophy. To fight well and win you need to be completely at ease and relaxed. But how can you possibly be completely relaxed in such a tense brutal situation, where you or the other guy are going to be dead in a fraction of a second ?
That was the basic problem that the Samurai had. They took it to the zen masters and the zen masters explained how it could be dealt with. You let go of self, of ego, so that there is nothing to fear, because you're *already* dead, in a sense. Letting go of self is quite elementary stuff in zen meditation. It's what beginners learn.
That means there's no fear or ego-preservation instincts interfering with concentration. There's just empty sitting. Or, in martial arts, empty movement.
Llig may know nothing about martial arts, but he does know something about that. He knows that playing really well means it's effortless, it's not showing off, it's ego-less...
just like it said in the Transatlantic sessions (which I watched last night) with Aly Bain, Bruce Molsky, Sharon Shannon, Donal Lunny, etc. The guy said everyone left their egos hanging on a peg at the door, to be collected again on the way out. They were there to serve the music, not to play one-upmanship.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
"If you are middle class or higher...etc."
Isn't there a problem with that analysis, CurvyFiddle, in that this music was initiated, originated, by those poor people without your privileges, who had to work, and yet still produced wonderful music ?
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
I think the point of the martial arts stuff is that undergoing intense training over a long time give people a different approach to life and learning. The skills such as sensitivity, awareness and the methods used transfer over into other aspects of life. As you say Wolfbird. Elementary Zen training teaches another approach to life and learning.not better perhaps . just different.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
There's no doubt that doing intense training over a long time changes people. It doesn't have to be martial arts. It could be horse riding or deep sea diving or mountain climbing or anything like that.
I probably don't agree with you that zen and martial arts have different approaches. The way I see it, most of the well-known martial arts schools stem back to taoist and buddhist teachings. Some go back to ancient Indian teachings of a similar nature.
I'm not entirely comfortable talking about this stuff in a public forum, because it is so easily misunderstood.
There's levels or degrees of understanding. Let's take it away from music and martial arts for a moment, and look at equestrianism.
Beginners have to learn to get onto a horse and sit there. As soon as it begins to move, they have problems. Someone who is doing advanced dressage at Olympic standard, well, everything is entirely different. They don't ever think about the elementary problems because they've all been learned long ago and become second-nature.
What Musashi is talking about, and what Peter Ralston talks about in Cheng Hsin, and maybe what mickray's guy talks about, is stuff at the Olympic dressage level. For those guys all the stuff you're (jig) talking about has been mastered long ago. They don't care about winning or losing or self-control or mastering techniques, etc. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, long ago. I mean, if you've beaten all comers and been world champion, where next ?
What they're talking about is stuff about the deep principles, the nature of being, the nature of consciousness, the nature of conflict, the nature of event, it's about the practical and theoretical philosophy.
Zen is different from martial arts because it begins at that point. It's interested in the nature of existence right from the start. The insights can then be applied to any human activity.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
Hang on, slight misunderstanding. Zen is a big part, the essence of Daoist martial arts.
Where do they go you ask? why they start at the begining again with a new art/skill. or stagnate and degenerate?
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Did I misunderstand what you wrote, jig ? "Zen training teaches another approach to life and learning.not better perhaps . just different."
I thought you meant zen training is different to martial arts training ?
Yes, I agree, zen is at the core of most of the martial arts traditions.
But there are differences. Zen is about sitting in zazen. Formal meditation is the core. Zen has no interest in jumping about fighting people. It has no interest in playing music either, for that matter. You just sit there, like a stone. All the work is internal.
The way I see it, if the zen practitioner stands up and moves about, you're almost automatically into tai chi or aikido. It's meditation in movement. But tai chi and aikido are not to do with fighting. They are to do with avoiding any need to fight. However, if you practice long enough, they're very effective for self defense.
But it's another big step, from sitting like a rock, to being actively aggressive and attacking, fighting to win a contest, breaking bricks, all that stuff.
The zen master might ask 'why would anybody want to do that, when they could be arranging flowers or making lovely music ?'
Unfortunately, we live in a world where violence and killing has been a fact of life for millennia. As I understand it, Bodhidharma invented the early martial arts forms including lethal moves, because he got weary of having his gentle pacifist monks and nuns beaten up and killed by bandits and murderers.
I don't really agree with your last statement, jig. My point was, that if you mastered techniques and skills and can go no further, the fundamental questions still remain. The basic philosophical questions, like why am I ? what is existence ?
It's really almost impossible to discuss those issues from a zen point of view, with people who are unable to receive the answers that zen offers. It's pointless to try, it just causes confusion. People already have preconceived (mistaken) ideas.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
Lucky Shylock--at least we've asnwered his question. To sum: Whether it's work or play, find what clicks for you. If you're not happy with the results, try something different. And most obvious of all--if you want to play this music well, don't waste your time reading diatribes when you could be playing tunes....
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Workflow in practicing
Since it is impossible, why don't you stop. Thanks.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by feardearg
Ooops
"It's really almost impossible to discuss those issues from a zen point of view, with people who are unable to receive the answers that zen offers. It's pointless to try, it just causes confusion. "
Since it is impossible, why don't you stop. Thanks.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Workflow in practicing
I like argueing with people, feardearg.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
llig--my guy actually said that if you don't agree with him, "that's your problem." But he said it so casually, without rancor, I think it amounts to the same thing as "your privilege." And--again, my interpretation here--I would say that he is not afraid to discuss a point, he just doesn't "argue." Never taunts, or says a bad word about anybody. Just says his piece, makes his point, and that's it. He's big on the positive approach--doesn't dwell on the negative, ever.
And although he is not actually a Zen Buddhist, I think he would agree with you guys completely on "relaxed and egoless" aspect of playing. But I think he would say that it takes years of work to achieve the relaxation, and constant vigilence to avoid the egotism. "A thousand hours of practice to learn an art, and ten thousand hours to polish it" is pretty close to an exact quote.
But all this might be more about my problems, than about learning the fiddle. llig is also right, about self-imposed conflict getting in the way.
You see, I have an evil twin, a guy who is egotistical and insecure, and he sometimes jumps in and screws up a tune I'm trying to play. Musashi, and my mentor (who has studied him for about 70 years now), have helped me deal with him, I think.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by mickray
Re: Workflow in practicing
I like what you say, mickray. But about the years of work and constant vigilance - that's true, of course. But it can also be done instantly. The only place where it can ever be done, is right here and now, in the present moment. All the rest is just talk and ideas.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
I may be wrong, but it seems you like impressing people more. I suppose there are those that might be.
Getting back to practicing...I agree with llig. Just play the tunes. It's fun!
I practice by going down the list of tunes I know. I always determine that I will get down to the bottom of the page and then do something else. If I peak at the next page to see what is the next tune, I just have to play it and usually, the rest of the page (c. 25 tunes per page)!
Practice is so much fun that I like working on it. I love my tunes like I like my other human friends. Spending time with them is a delight whether I am working or playing around with them. They never bore me no matter how many times I play them.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Workflow in practicing
Aren't you impressed, then, feardearg ?
Of course, I may be wrong about you too.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
yeah, slight confusion. I was agreeing with you, sorry
Zazen is the begining and end of Aikido, and other Daoist, arts. Zen in motion. Just like flower arranging or the tea ceramony or Iaido, etc.
Hey fearderg, dont stop him now! its just getting interesting. Just go somewhere else perhaps if the conversation bores you?
Perhaps you might not see the relevance, perhaps it might not even be relevant, but thats where the flow has taken us. Its like changing a tune... If you happen to 'dislike' a tune we have moved too, then that can upset the flow. Its all about the flow. be like a free river, dont dam it with negativeity. Im not saying you are, just making a request.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
I ought to correct my remark re likeing to argue. What I do like, is to discuss. It's an art in it's own right, like walking a tight rope. If you engage in gratuitous insults or deliberately cause offence or lose your temper, the elegance and grace is lost, you can wobble and fall off the wire.
There's some fair rare characters that pop up on this page, this stage, - ceolachan, jig, llig, muse, Will CPT, dow, steve shaw, irisnevins, KML, bliss, fiddle4, and a whole lot more, great people, lots of voices that I enjoy reading and learning from, even if I completely disagree.
I try to be reasonable and considerate as much as I can. Which reminds me, screetch was going for major surgery...best wishes, screetch !
I'm sorry if I come across as only trying to impress, feardearg. We all have our peculiar personal weaknesses. I try to be open and honest.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
I once thought like Tall, Dark and Mysterious that if I played tunes as fast as possible at home, that when I played them at the session, I would play them better because I would have mastered them at a higher speed. But what I found that I was doing was learning a shadow of the tune, where I fluffed though many of the little details that make tunes special. So now I make it a point to learn tunes slowly and carefully. My former guitar teacher once told me that too many people learn to play mistakes when they learn tunes. One of the mistakes I found I was building into my music sometimes was uncertainty regarding certain notes, which helped lead to those 'fluffing through' moments. So when I am learning a tune, I make sure I master every note in every phrase. Later on I may be flexible, but when learning I stick to one way of playing the tune. It is good to learn to play tunes at a variety of speeds, if you can only play it at one speed, you are a long way from having really 'learned' the tune.
I tend to agree with llig that martial arts analogies don't apply to music, although I did find it amusing to see him stating that there is no black and white, when he has approached many past arguments with an 'either/or' position.
And I agree with wolfbird, it is far better to discuss than to argue!
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Workflow in practicing
"I once thought like Tall, Dark and Mysterious that if I played tunes as fast as possible at home, that when I played them at the session, I would play them better because I would have mastered them at a higher speed."
I did not say that, nor do I think that.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Workflow in practicing
Sorry. I didn't get a lot of sleep this weekend due to the Fleadh. I woke up kinda cranky. Sorry.
I just had to ask myself.....Is this what shylock had in mind when looking for an answer to a serious question? Good shylock made one response, question related, out or the 67 comments submitted.
Unfortunately, I am automatically scrolling to see who submitted comments before I actually read any lengthy submission. Some comments I find myself just skipping after seeing who.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by feardearg
Re: Workflow in practicing
Yeah, feardearg, no problem...if I try to be objective about myself, (which is probably impossible), my biggest weakness, I find it almost impossible to stay on topic. When I was a kid, I failed loads of exams, not because I didn't know the stuff, but because I always answered a different question to what was asked. Still have that exact same problem. My mind gets the question, thinks the answer, then jumps sideways, because there's all this other amazingly interesting stuff over there...
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
TDM, you seem very defensive... chill. you are still a beginner. You might not like that role, but after a couple of years any advice you receive might well help you to progress. Does it really matter if we misunderstand or extrapolate from your post? We all see things from our own perspectives. but none of us see the full picture.
Albrown, analogies in any field can apply and be legitimate. . they are analogies. Anyhow, unless you are a martial artist how would you know?
As it happens I spent most of my twenties and my 30s training in martial arts and I can assure you that Lessons learnt in the dojo can apply in all aspects of our lives. Now of course you can disagree, but what grounds do you have to think you can offer an educated opinion? I can disagree that the world is round. I am entitled to my opinion but to expect anyone who knows the world is round [roughly] to consider my opinion to bear weight! That is another matter.
How does this all relate to work flow? We have two camps again; those who work at it and those who play at it. I work hard to achieve my goals, I dont however write out lists and chart my progress, though I am assured that this is the most effective method. It probably is, but its not my way. I am more relaxed about my aims. After all we all end up in the same situation. Its not the destination that matters. we all will end up there anyhow. Its the journey. Personally I dont set targets, or dates by which to achieve those targets, apart from general ones . but I accept that it is a valid approach and quite likely more effective than mine. As the zen proverb goes; with one eye on the destination you have only one for the road.
I prefer the slow scenic route to a mad scramble for attainment and achievement.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Sorry, TDM, must have misunderstood what you meant when you said to learn a tune, you play it "way too fast" and start by learning a "fast and horribly sloppy version," and then refined the tune from there. That sounded like some of the things I used to do when learning a tune, which, as I described above, I have since abandoned. If your way works for you, more power to you...
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Workflow in practicing
Wolfbird said an interesting one above, that this music was initiated, originated, by people who had to work hard for a living, and yet still produced wonderful music. I just wonder what they'd have thought of Jig's famous quarter of a century of working day in day out at his music?
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
Again, the best advice I can think of: RELAX.
# Posted on May 12th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Workflow in practicing
"I prefer the slow scenic route to a mad scramble for attainment and achievement. "
I hate to tell you but you'll never make it on American Idol with that attitude.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by leoj
Re: Workflow in practicing
I hate to tell you, but you'll never blow anyone's minds with that attitude.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
No American Idol for you, either.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by leoj
Re: Workflow in practicing
I practice mistakes, and get good at those mistakes.
I argue. I offer my opinion, and you can take it or leave it. If you don't agree that's your privilege.
But it is not provocation, You may think so though.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Workflow in practicing
What is "workflow"? It sounds like meaningless jargon of the type you'd hear Ricky Gervais saying in The Office. What's it got to do with trad music? "Workflow". "Workflow". The more I say it, the more I want to vomit.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Dow
Re: Workflow in practicing
Bite me, jig. I posted a single line pointing out that I had not claimed a belief that another poster had attributed to me. You can admit that you were wrong, or you can dismiss me as "defensive" and then plunge forth with a prewritten diatribe, entirely unrelated to anything I've written, about the perils of practising one's mistakes. That after *three* posts of mine offering explanation and clarification of my position, you *still* think that my methods constitute a "mad scramble for attainment and achievement" indicates that you're not merely extrapolating from what I'm saying; you're either projecting, wilfully misinterpreting, are simply daft, or some combination of the three. And yes, inasmuch as communication is concerned it *does* "really matter if [despite multiple clarifications], [you continue to] misunderstand" what I'm saying, because when that's the case, *you are not responding to what I'm actually saying* - you're reciting a script.
And make no mistake, my frustration with you has nothing - *nothing* - to do with any ludicrous notion that I am at odds with my role as a beginner, and everything to do with the fact that you can't be bothered to read before responding.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Workflow in practicing
C'mon, Dow. Surely you remember that famous Seamus Ennis quip:
"First of all you have to learn it, and first you must learn the talk, and then you must learn the grip, and after that you must learn the *workflow,* and then you have the whole lot only just to keep on practicing it."
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Workflow in practicing
I thought it was Andy Capp: "Work, Flo?"
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Bren
Re: Workflow in practicing
Yes TDM, I winced at Jig's last posting also. I don't think I've ever come accross a more condesending diatribe.
I'm interested in your approach:
"I've found that when I first start learning a tune, I need to play it way too fast, because if I slow it down in the initial learning stages, I lose the rhythm, and when I lose the rhythm, I lose the tune. Once I've got a fast and horribly sloppy version of the tune going, I slow it down and smooth it out."
My two problems with it, mentioned above, still stand. But I've been thinking about it and I can see it's merits.
There are really two aspects to tunes; the specific order of the notes, and the general shape of them. A lot of tunes, the majority, really only tick one of these boxes, usually at the expense of the other. And there are a lot of tunes that tick neither ... the really bad tunes. But the very best tunes somehow manage to have wonderful shapes to them and have really interesting and subtle specific orders to there notes.
I agree that when learning an instrument it's best to play steady and slow, or your lack of ability might hinder your recognition of the specific orders of notes. But it's hard to grasp the shape of tunes when you play like this. So yeah, give it a go at blasting through it also. Fluff some notes, for the sake of an exploration of the shape of the tune is it doesn't matter for now. (I'd avoid doing it down the pub though)
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
TDM, do you really think that post was to do with you? the first 3 lines were. then i responded to allbrown, and the general conversation. The world doesn't revolve around you in case you hadn't noticed! talk about paranoia.
you did'nt even read the post did you?
''nd everything to do with the fact that you can't be bothered to read before responding''
take your own advice eh?
Llig, talk of the pot calling the kettle black.
What are you talking about? hard to grasp the shape of a tune if you play it slowly? How can that be so? , unless of course you are actually a closet dot reader? If i want a tune i listen to it. I want a tune because i enjoy listening to it enough to play it. Then i figure the notes out and play it..... fast or slow its the same tune with the same rhythm.
TDM. get a metronome. Jeez i dont know why i bother some times. basic concepts and tools like scales, metronome, seem alien to some folk out there.
I also suggest doubletime with your metronome.
''Fluff some notes, for the sake of an exploration of the shape of the tune is it doesn't matter for now.''
Classic... oh dear oh dear sad.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
>>Jeez i dont know why i bother some times.
Don't, then.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Workflow in practicing
Well I suppose its because I love ITM and I dislike the half-truths and inaccurate guff from the likes of Llig. I enjoy intelligent conversation about things that interest me. Your right I suppose I should just laugh at the foolish ways of some people and not try to help them. What do I care? .ps this is not about TDM. though there may or may not be some relevance.
It bugs me as well people with a few years of book learning insulting me. Like that 2/2 vs4/4 argument. Some classical bod decides Reels are in 2/2. Writes it down and now I get people telling me that as though it were actually true and telling me how ignorant I am! .
2/2 can be superimposed upon 4/4 Its an easy mistake to make. But that's what it is. If you want proof its out there. just look[ at Martin Hayes feet. or Paddy malony's feet.]
workflow in practice.
I like the term;.
' flow'.. that's the big word. work, well most of us have to work at it. I think we all do, just some people wish to pretend they don't so as to bolster their ego's. Sad.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Yeah, actually, I'm warming to the idea, especially for someone starting out but it should hold true for anyone. Yeah, fluff some notes for the sake of exploration. It's not like you'll ever really get much out of playing music if you are constantly scared from ever fluffing the odd note.
Though maybe if all you want is labour and toil? Maybe if you take such a Calvinist view of life? Maybe, if you labour and toil for 25 years you could get yourself into a state where you could scare yourself from ever making a mistake. Maybe if you think that playing music is like conflict resolution? Maybe if you think that if you make a mistake it's analogous to being kicked in the teeth?
Yeah indeed. Don't be afraid to fluff some notes for the sake of exploration.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
Yes, llig, I was thinking along the same lines, the Calvinist view, but I was thinking Puritanical. Like the white anglo-saxon protestant work ethic (WASP) where you have to suffer to be virtuous, work is good, play is bad, hence jig's nose to the grindstone outlook, practising boring scales, self-control, all that stuff.
It isn't really just a personal conflict between yourself and jig, you're just particles in the cultural field. The conflict is deeply embedded in our culture, right back to the English Civil War, Cavaliers who liked parties and fun and Roundheads who wanted strict discipline. It's a clash of philosophical outlooks.
It's possibly fundamental to the human species. I read that, for baboon colonies, when times are good, plenty of food, no pressures, the colonies are usually ruled by three dominant females, rules are lax and everything is liberal and easy going.
But when times get hard, like a drought or something, the colony gets ruled by one male dictator who demands strict control all through the hierarchy, non conformity is punished.
I guess it's mirrored in politics too, easy going tolerant liberal regimes, and right wing fascist totalitarian dictatorships.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
LOL Swami Wolf!
I'd say my childhood classical violin years were total Calvinist Authoritarian Nonsense while my happy adult fiddling years have been pure Celtic Libertarian Joy.
Oddly enough (or not so oddly), which style of music have I 'married' for the rest of my life? Not the shrill evil yelling strict shrew, but the lovely free sweet-voiced easy-going lass...
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Workflow in practicing
...and as a side note, you ever seen the interview with Derek Bell on the Water from the Well DVD? He goes into this whole discussion of Eastern Philosophy and Irish Music while sitting with his harp, it's grand, right up the wolfbird alley.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Workflow in practicing
''you have to suffer to be virtuous, work is good, play is bad, hence jig's nose to the grindstone outlook, practising boring scales, self-control, all that stuff.''
Wolfbird. You seem to draw very strange conclusions from my posts.... And Llig, .....dont tell me, you are work-shy hippies?
Where is the suffering? none, I thoroughly enjoy my work. And I enjoy my play. In fact As a general statement of being I thoroughly enjoy my life. Sure I have dealt with bereavement and loss and depression, but I have come out on top. [so far]
Scales aren't boring its your attitude that makes them so for you, a negative attitude. self control is essential in playing music. we control our bodies to do anything, . You have forgotten what it is like to be a baby. To learn to walk, to pick stuff up. All this is self control. All I do is to raise this in to conscious practice. You may not understand but I feel that is your loss. Its about being aware. being alive. I refuse to conform to your dictatorship. I live my own life free of small minded ego trips. Free from people who wish to control me.
Enjoy.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Careful wolfey, you don't wanna be invoking Godwin's law prematurely
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
He enjoys his labour and toils. If you have the right attitude, you can derive interest from anything, even scales. Self control is essential. He controls his body to do anything. He even remembers with fear what it was like being a baby what it was like to have no control.
We have a thing where we diddle ... we'll play a bunch of tunes, nice and easy, settle in to it. Sit about, have a natter, a giggle. Then someone will say, "lose the head." It works every time.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Workflow in practicing
Just thought I'd chuck a log on the fire...
"You have forgotten what it is like to be a baby. To learn to walk, to pick stuff up. All this is self control. "
How would you know what I've forgotten or remember, jig ? Do you know how to recall your past lives ?
I don't care whether you have self-control or not, or whether you conform or are free or any of it, jig, it makes not the slightest difference to me and my life.
What I'm saying is, that as humans in a culture, we can be divided into those who think that austerity, self-discipline, control, complying with rules, etc, amount to 'being good' ; and at the opposite pole (with shades of grey in between) are those who are sloppy but happy, who think fun comes before 'being responsible', those who resist 'obeying the rules', etc...
Every time a contentious issue pops up here, llig takes one position, jig takes the opposite, and it's noticeable which side of the spectrum they each stand.
I happen to find that interesting. The two of you reflect a feature of the human condition. It's internalised in my own personal psychology too.
'Stay in and do boring maths homework, or, go out and mess about in the mud and get into trouble with parents and teachers'
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
I don't care whether you have self-control or not, or whether you conform or are free or any of it,wolfbird, it makes not the slightest difference to me and my life
'
What I'm saying is, that as humans in a culture, we can be divided into those who think that austerity, self-discipline, control, complying with rules, etc, amount to 'being good' ; and at the opposite pole (with shades of grey in between) are those who are sloppy but happy, who think fun comes before 'being responsible', those who resist 'obeying the rules', etc...
These two classifications are simply your construct,and I personally dont fit in your box at all. your system ignores the reality and depth of life. You really mis-read me through your subjective viewpoint and preconceived Ideas. laughably so. And I dont mean to be insulting just that your impression seems so far off the mark as to be completely mistaken.
I dont take the opposite side to llig, that would just be reaction. Occasionally ,when he makes sense, I agree with him. The fact is though that he is poorly informed on numerous aspects of ITM. But rather than accept that he digs himself even deeper, then starts petty little insult games because he realises he is at the bottom of his own hole.
''boring maths homework'' there you go again, boring. you use the word a lot. I gave up the word decades ago. I advise everyone to do the same. Its your attitude that makes it boring. After all , someone who enjoys maths wont find it boring. You go play in the mud WB, enjoy yourself. I would much rather listen to bach and study a score. I have done plenty of playing in the mud. Its fun for a while but I would rather do something else. You can judge me all you like. I dont care. you are very mistaken but that's your prerogative.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
"There are really two aspects to tunes; the specific order of the notes, and the general shape of them. "
Exactly - the local aspect and the global aspect. In order to get a handle on the latter, I need to listen, relax, play around, and just feel the tune out. No type or amount of technical exercises will help me with that part. For the specific order of the notes and other local bits (tone, intonation, yadda), I do need to work - not hours upon hours of scales or arpeggios or what have you, but a fair bit of slow, focused attention to detail. But what's nice is that the two aspects of the tunes play off of each other - the specific notes establish what sorts of rhythms are legal (cf the illuminating hornpipe/reel discussion from last week), and the general shape of the tune dictates what variations make sense.
Another advantage to starting off with the global part of the tune, and not fretting too much about the individual notes at the beginning, is that I end up coming up with variations pretty much effortlessly.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Workflow in practicing
Tut, tut, jig. I think anyone reading your posts, not just me, would come to the same conclusion about your character. What's with all the ego-defense and self-justification ? Why can't you just discuss ideas ? For someone who claims to be so free, you seem to me to be some sort of slave of your own personality, inflexible, dogmatic, patronising, unable to identify or empathise with others...but, of course, that's your prerogative....
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
You are entitled to your impression. its just mistaken. simple.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
I wonder, jig, if you have *ever* had a serious think about why people disagree with you so vehemently, which leads to you having such a hard time on this site ? I mean, unless you're a masochist, it can't be much fun being ridiculed and attacked and humiliated over and over...
I can already hear your reply, all tough and macho, 'not my problem', everybody else is wrong, only jig is right...dear, dear.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
Wolfbird It seems quite simple to me, a number of people set them selves as some kind of guru or authority. I am secure in the knowledge that; 1 I am a good hearted honest man. 2 that I really do know what I am talking about.
For example , you have started insulting me, you feel threatened that your mental construct of your concepts of me have been challenged as mistaken. in your own way, showing your vulnerabilities. You are wrong WB get over it. You are transfering your own hangups on to me. They dont fit. I dont want them thanks, sorry but You can keep the $hit you have started to deal out. bye.
Who here has 'humiliated' me?! hah what a laugh, you are serious? ho ho ho 8-:
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
jig, your wrote: "a number of people set them selves as some kind of guru or authority. I am secure in the knowledge that; 1 I am a good hearted honest man. 2 that I really do know what I am talking about."
So I'm not clear: are *you* the self-appointed guru? It sure sounds like that's what you're saying.
The rest of us here just pass along what others (and experience) have taught us. We're not trying to convince anyone that ours is the one true way.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Workflow in practicing
"Who here has 'humiliated' me?! "
YOU have, jig. You humiliate yourself. Over and over again.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Workflow in practicing
no , still getting used to typing and computers that have a nasty habit of deleting whole sentences! sorry, getting there
now in that i am a beginer for sure.
The full statement was meant to be ;Wolfbird It seems quite simple to me, a number of people set them selves as some kind of guru or authority. They feel challanged when i question their statements. When they are in fact wrong but are to proud to admit it they either slope off hoping no one will notice their gaffe or resort to insults and character assassination. so, no i have no problem with that kind of behavior. they are the lesser for resorting to it.
.I am secure in the knowledge that; 1 I am a good hearted honest man. 2 that I really do know what I am talking about.
Will, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. In fact I would say that some people here are doing exactly what you say you are not doing.... If that is not the case re Llig and the dots. you and scales, then why do you get so upset when i offer a counter argument?
That is exactly what you are doing .IMO. funny how you should mention it...
Dots are not the 'true way to play 'the music'
scales are 'unnecessary ' etc etc.
When i argue against this 'one true way' i get insulted,. This simply goes to show that the insulter's have lost the argument. otherwise why would they resort to such childish and immature behaviour? however perhaps I am mistaken,.
Some people doubt whether I really have been playing ITM for 25 yrs and guitar for34. I intend to post some stuff some day , but its not a priority. I however know the truth of that statement. |So i don't feel challenged.. besides I know that every day I get better . whats the hurry? Anyone who really knows their stuff already realises that I know mine.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Prove it. It's all you can do to salvage what's left, if anything, of your credibility, which has been in tatters here for months. Sound clips. You can blather on all you like about how long you've been at it but the only way you'll convince anyone that you can actually play anything is to prove it. It's simple. Put up the clips. Shut us all up. Just make sure you tell us which of your multifarious manifestations is actually playing them, though.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Workflow in practicing
Steve, even if I did .I wouldn't tell you. It makes me laugh to see the state you get in.
jig''I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.''
steve;''he only way you'll convince anyone that you can actually play anything is to prove it.
Ah steve. was that not clear enough for you? I dont care what you think.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
You don't care what anybody thinks. Your super-ego is so bloated that it swallows up all the area around you that would otherwise be the room for other people's opinions.
Sound clips. You really can't play anything, can you!
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Workflow in practicing
Oh but i do care. There are some incredible musicians round here, I certainly care what they think.
# Posted on May 13th 2008 by jig
Re: Workflow in practicing
Interesting. Two of the people you start fights with most around here are superb musicians. Far too clever to stick blu-tack on their fiddles or spend hours practising scales and arpeggios.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Workflow in practicing
Bite me, jig.
Tut, tut, jig.
I wonder, jig,
I'm checking the session tunes on here; not the reels.
# Posted on May 14th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Workflow in practicing
Like feardog, I too noticed that none of these threads are at all related to shylocks intro. Lot of claptrap here. There, I said it.
# Posted on May 24th 2008 by hauke