one fiddle ornamentation, that is not used very much in kerry,is the bowing ornamentation caled the treble.
a lot of left hand ornamentation is used,very often very quick triplets particuarly on the first finger f# and b,plus cuts and rolls.Sliabh Luchra includes asmallpart of C
[to continue] a small part of Cork and Limerick.
BOX Ornamentation will differ again,and will vary depending on the system of box,piano accordion bc or c#d,or whatever.Dick Miles
- Microtonal variations in pitch (such as notes somewhere between a major and minor thirds) is popular. These "blunt notes" can be amazing when when used well. A related technique is sliding pitches around by microtonal amounts within a single note.
- Double stops and drones
- Unison -- or near unison but quite -- between open string and 4th finger note on the string below
- in jigs and reels a lot of slurring across beats -- something that helps enables this is using cuts to separate notes so you don't have to change bow direction
when and which player is a good question to ask. "Kitty Lie Over" is amazing, and hard to square with the playing of Denis Murphy or Padraig O'Keefe. It's my impression that styles have changed, but I don't know enough to know why or when. Anyone wanna weigh in on that?
Other than that, here's some cool things to listen for that haven't been mentioned yet or emphasized to my satisfaction (fiddle-specific) that I pick up from recordings:
tons of slurs, sometimes. many, many notes per bow.
an interesting thing where in some jigs and slides there are 4 equal notes in place of the usual 3 - O'Keefe has some great examples of this
far more doublestops, and drones, and left hand ornaments
Looking at corby's profile, it sounds like he's looking for box, rather than fiddle advice.
If you want to learn what makes Kerry music (or any traditional music, frankly) different, listen to the old folks before the younger ones.
Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh is a lovely fiddle player (one of my personal favorites), but he's trying to *advance* traditional music. If you want to hear it in as close to it's native habitat, listen to O'Keefe/Murphy/Clifford, as well as Paddy Cronin, Johnny O'Leary, Denis MacMahon, etc etc...
If you were looking to learn about good Irish whiskey, you wouldn't be drinking your glass with cola, a twist of lemon, and several sprigs of mint in a martini glass with an umbrella. You'd get it straight-up, with as little distracting extras as possible. It might be a little rough on your delicate palette at first, but once you get a sense for the rich flavor of the whiskey itself, you'll see why the mint/lemon/umbrella are really unnecessary, and more of a distraction from the main event in the end. If that isn't what you want to do, then perhaps you're not really all that interested in learning about the whiskey after all...
I'll second what Georgi has said here - KLO is one of my favorites but I wouldn't prop that up as a textbook example of Kerry style music. I think of it more as having piping lineage (Ennis/Clancy). I have learned some of the Kerry bowing technique I have from Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh - but I think of his performance & recording fiddle style as being unique and not necessarily Kerry or southwest Clare. He himself would tell you to go track down recordings of the players who came before.
I got my introduction to Kerry rhythms and ornamentation from James Kelly of all people. I was advised to serve the rhythm first, and go sparse on the ornaments with polkas in particular.
With polkas I like to think of the ornaments as falling into two categories - the first being the simple technique of taking 2 eight notes and making them into 4 sixteenth notes. It really puts some movement into your rhythm. The second is gracing a note on your way out of it - this works when you are descending in pitch. You grace the first note at the last possible second (or however you want to time it rhythmically) before descending to the next note. It gives the effect of bending the pitch of the first note and the ear will hear the larger delta in pitch and be pleasantly surprised by it. I like that one - the first time I recognized what it was I was listening to Julia Clifford and just remember the hairs standing up on the back of my neck.
Paul DeGrae is a great man for conversations about this stuff. He has a vast store of knowledge on the tunes and the people who have played/do play this music. The most important thing I think I've learned from him is that there is a wonderful amount of variety in the treatment of rhythms and left-hand tonal variants in Kerry music itself. There's more to it than the Star Above the Garter.
Keep your eyes and ears peeled for recordings of these people: (beyond what has already been mentioned) Paddy Jones!, Mikie Duggan, Tom & Kerry Barrett, Denis O'Conor, Maurice O'Keeffe, Donal O'Conor (the elder)...seems there are others that I am missing but those are great places to start.
And if you're looking for instruction or insights, you can't go wrong with tracking down Paul, or Jackie or Matt, Maura O'Keeffe, Gerry Harrington, Seamus Creagh, Jackie Small from the Traditional Music Archive (who is a great admirer of Denis Murphy's music), Aine O'Connell, Paudie O'Conor, the Mulcahys, and certainly Timmy "The Brit" McCarthy, whom I understand will be returning to the Catskills this year to teach set dancing - he's a great man for stories and wears his heart on his Sliebh...
Crazy fingers just might be on to something! You are right that Caoineadh O' Raghallaigh has somewhat of a Cajun Style to his fiddle plaing! You know a lot for someone who has only been intersted in Irish music for 4 years. I heard that Caoineadh spent quite a number of years in the southern states, developing his fiddle style. Is this true Crazy fingers?
Richard -- It's funny how printed word makes things looks so definite and confident even when that is not intended. I am fairly new to this music, and any proclamations I make are tentative and provisional. But I have spent a lot of time and energy learning, so I think that just maybe I do know a few things
I didn't make any mention of a Cajun or southern American states influence on Caoimhin's playing. I don't know if he has ever lived in America. He is from Dublin.
I went to an evening workshop and a week-long music camp with Caoimhin earlier this year. I also drove him out to a session in Portland. But I don't know a whole lot about him. I think that his musical interests are probably broad and eclectic. He did mention that he likes Bruce Molsky and said that Bruce's bowing uses the same sort of slurring style that Caoimhin uses. So that indicates some awareness of old-time playing which of course has roots in the southern American states. Also, on Caoimhin's website http://stateofchassis.com/, there is a characterization of his playing as "where Irish traditional music meets Old-Time fiddling and a Scandinavian feel for sound". So there you go.
Caoimhin has worked as archivist (for RTE and CCE I think) cataloging old recordings of traditional Irish players. I think that this experience was a big influence on his playing and how he thinks about the music. And I am sure he has collected lot of other influences too...
As others pointed out, Caoimhin is not an "original source" in the way that Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford, or Padraig O'Keeffe are. I only mentioned him as a recent example of somebody who is, I think, at least partially rooted in the Sliabh Luachra musical tradition.
On the initial question: give a listen to Breanndan Begley and his ilk. They're a whole family of crazy good musicians, and Breanndan's accordion work is phenomenal (he sings a fair stroke too!).
On the Kerry tradition: we should all be aware that what a lot of us call "Kerry" or "Sliabh Luachra music" is really o'Keeffeism. The so-called house-party style of fiddling in Sliabh Luachra was much more based on single-bowing notes and sparser ornamentation, as played by Din Tarrant and Corney Drew and the lot. o'Keeffe was influenced by that style but what we now recognize as the skipping bow-hand and lilting melodies of Sliabh Luachra primarily come from Padraig o'Keeffe himself.
On Caoimhin o'Raghallaigh:
I've only met him twice but he's a point of personal interest. I know from a radio interview that he worked at a particle accelerator in the States for a while, which is where he picked up the trail of the Hardanger fiddle, and I know that Star Above the Garter is likely his top source for his style - he calls it what he was searching for as a "bigger fiddle sound", richer and dronier. From what I can see and hear of him, his Kerry roots show in a couple ways - particularly earlier in his career, from his solo Turas go Tir na Nog. Obviously his repertoire is drawn largely from Sliabh Luachra but his bowing is also very voiced, energetic and dynamic; his intonation draws a lot on the microtonal scale o'Keeffe and Murphy played. I think his rolls often have a sense of timing similar to Murphy's, a kind of delayed rather than even roll. However, he is also highly influenced by Bobby Casey and a host of pipers, so he uses bowed triplets rather more frequently than tough Kerry players.
kerry ornamentations
kerry ornamentations
how would you best describe the ornamentations of the music of sliabh luachra?
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by corby
Re: kerry ornamentations
"Intricate"
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Georgi
Re: kerry ornamentations
LOL!
I might add "idiomatic," but then we'd be getting verbose....
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: kerry ornamentations
one fiddle ornamentation, that is not used very much in kerry,is the bowing ornamentation caled the treble.
a lot of left hand ornamentation is used,very often very quick triplets particuarly on the first finger f# and b,plus cuts and rolls.Sliabh Luchra includes asmallpart of C
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by dickens
Re: kerry ornamentations
[to continue] a small part of Cork and Limerick.
BOX Ornamentation will differ again,and will vary depending on the system of box,piano accordion bc or c#d,or whatever.Dick Miles
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by dickens
Re: kerry ornamentations
Some random ones that occur to me:
- Microtonal variations in pitch (such as notes somewhere between a major and minor thirds) is popular. These "blunt notes" can be amazing when when used well. A related technique is sliding pitches around by microtonal amounts within a single note.
- Double stops and drones
- Unison -- or near unison but quite -- between open string and 4th finger note on the string below
- in jigs and reels a lot of slurring across beats -- something that helps enables this is using cuts to separate notes so you don't have to change bow direction
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: kerry ornamentations
By the way, talking about this stuff in the abstract is kind of weird
It would make much more sense to show some examples. But in lieu of that...
Get a copy of "The Star Above the Garter". Listen to it all the time. Another good one is "Kerry Fiddles".
For a more recent take on Sliabh Luachra music, give "Kitty Lie Over" a listen. It's a true modern classic.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: kerry ornamentations
not quite ornamentation,but important .
two fiddles playing partlyi n octaves.j
ulia clifford /denis murphy
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by dickens
Re: kerry ornamentations
when and which player is a good question to ask. "Kitty Lie Over" is amazing, and hard to square with the playing of Denis Murphy or Padraig O'Keefe. It's my impression that styles have changed, but I don't know enough to know why or when. Anyone wanna weigh in on that?
Other than that, here's some cool things to listen for that haven't been mentioned yet or emphasized to my satisfaction (fiddle-specific) that I pick up from recordings:
tons of slurs, sometimes. many, many notes per bow.
an interesting thing where in some jigs and slides there are 4 equal notes in place of the usual 3 - O'Keefe has some great examples of this
far more doublestops, and drones, and left hand ornaments
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by reenactor
Re: kerry ornamentations
Looking at corby's profile, it sounds like he's looking for box, rather than fiddle advice.
If you want to learn what makes Kerry music (or any traditional music, frankly) different, listen to the old folks before the younger ones.
Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh is a lovely fiddle player (one of my personal favorites), but he's trying to *advance* traditional music. If you want to hear it in as close to it's native habitat, listen to O'Keefe/Murphy/Clifford, as well as Paddy Cronin, Johnny O'Leary, Denis MacMahon, etc etc...
If you were looking to learn about good Irish whiskey, you wouldn't be drinking your glass with cola, a twist of lemon, and several sprigs of mint in a martini glass with an umbrella. You'd get it straight-up, with as little distracting extras as possible. It might be a little rough on your delicate palette at first, but once you get a sense for the rich flavor of the whiskey itself, you'll see why the mint/lemon/umbrella are really unnecessary, and more of a distraction from the main event in the end. If that isn't what you want to do, then perhaps you're not really all that interested in learning about the whiskey after all...
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Georgi
Re: kerry ornamentations
I'll second what Georgi has said here - KLO is one of my favorites but I wouldn't prop that up as a textbook example of Kerry style music. I think of it more as having piping lineage (Ennis/Clancy). I have learned some of the Kerry bowing technique I have from Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh - but I think of his performance & recording fiddle style as being unique and not necessarily Kerry or southwest Clare. He himself would tell you to go track down recordings of the players who came before.
I got my introduction to Kerry rhythms and ornamentation from James Kelly of all people. I was advised to serve the rhythm first, and go sparse on the ornaments with polkas in particular.
With polkas I like to think of the ornaments as falling into two categories - the first being the simple technique of taking 2 eight notes and making them into 4 sixteenth notes. It really puts some movement into your rhythm. The second is gracing a note on your way out of it - this works when you are descending in pitch. You grace the first note at the last possible second (or however you want to time it rhythmically) before descending to the next note. It gives the effect of bending the pitch of the first note and the ear will hear the larger delta in pitch and be pleasantly surprised by it. I like that one - the first time I recognized what it was I was listening to Julia Clifford and just remember the hairs standing up on the back of my neck.
Paul DeGrae is a great man for conversations about this stuff. He has a vast store of knowledge on the tunes and the people who have played/do play this music. The most important thing I think I've learned from him is that there is a wonderful amount of variety in the treatment of rhythms and left-hand tonal variants in Kerry music itself. There's more to it than the Star Above the Garter.
Keep your eyes and ears peeled for recordings of these people: (beyond what has already been mentioned) Paddy Jones!, Mikie Duggan, Tom & Kerry Barrett, Denis O'Conor, Maurice O'Keeffe, Donal O'Conor (the elder)...seems there are others that I am missing but those are great places to start.
And if you're looking for instruction or insights, you can't go wrong with tracking down Paul, or Jackie or Matt, Maura O'Keeffe, Gerry Harrington, Seamus Creagh, Jackie Small from the Traditional Music Archive (who is a great admirer of Denis Murphy's music), Aine O'Connell, Paudie O'Conor, the Mulcahys, and certainly Timmy "The Brit" McCarthy, whom I understand will be returning to the Catskills this year to teach set dancing - he's a great man for stories and wears his heart on his Sliebh...
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by _Steph_
Re: kerry ornamentations
Crazy fingers just might be on to something! You are right that Caoineadh O' Raghallaigh has somewhat of a Cajun Style to his fiddle plaing! You know a lot for someone who has only been intersted in Irish music for 4 years. I heard that Caoineadh spent quite a number of years in the southern states, developing his fiddle style. Is this true Crazy fingers?
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by richard white
Re: kerry ornamentations
Richard -- It's funny how printed word makes things looks so definite and confident even when that is not intended. I am fairly new to this music, and any proclamations I make are tentative and provisional. But I have spent a lot of time and energy learning, so I think that just maybe I do know a few things
I didn't make any mention of a Cajun or southern American states influence on Caoimhin's playing. I don't know if he has ever lived in America. He is from Dublin.
I went to an evening workshop and a week-long music camp with Caoimhin earlier this year. I also drove him out to a session in Portland. But I don't know a whole lot about him. I think that his musical interests are probably broad and eclectic. He did mention that he likes Bruce Molsky and said that Bruce's bowing uses the same sort of slurring style that Caoimhin uses. So that indicates some awareness of old-time playing which of course has roots in the southern American states. Also, on Caoimhin's website http://stateofchassis.com/, there is a characterization of his playing as "where Irish traditional music meets Old-Time fiddling and a Scandinavian feel for sound". So there you go.
Caoimhin has worked as archivist (for RTE and CCE I think) cataloging old recordings of traditional Irish players. I think that this experience was a big influence on his playing and how he thinks about the music. And I am sure he has collected lot of other influences too...
As others pointed out, Caoimhin is not an "original source" in the way that Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford, or Padraig O'Keeffe are. I only mentioned him as a recent example of somebody who is, I think, at least partially rooted in the Sliabh Luachra musical tradition.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: kerry ornamentations
Thanks Crubeen!
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by richard white
Re: kerry ornamentations
I think I want to change my user name to Croaighzaioaioaigh Fhenghears.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: kerry ornamentations
On the initial question: give a listen to Breanndan Begley and his ilk. They're a whole family of crazy good musicians, and Breanndan's accordion work is phenomenal (he sings a fair stroke too!).
On the Kerry tradition: we should all be aware that what a lot of us call "Kerry" or "Sliabh Luachra music" is really o'Keeffeism. The so-called house-party style of fiddling in Sliabh Luachra was much more based on single-bowing notes and sparser ornamentation, as played by Din Tarrant and Corney Drew and the lot. o'Keeffe was influenced by that style but what we now recognize as the skipping bow-hand and lilting melodies of Sliabh Luachra primarily come from Padraig o'Keeffe himself.
On Caoimhin o'Raghallaigh:
I've only met him twice but he's a point of personal interest. I know from a radio interview that he worked at a particle accelerator in the States for a while, which is where he picked up the trail of the Hardanger fiddle, and I know that Star Above the Garter is likely his top source for his style - he calls it what he was searching for as a "bigger fiddle sound", richer and dronier. From what I can see and hear of him, his Kerry roots show in a couple ways - particularly earlier in his career, from his solo Turas go Tir na Nog. Obviously his repertoire is drawn largely from Sliabh Luachra but his bowing is also very voiced, energetic and dynamic; his intonation draws a lot on the microtonal scale o'Keeffe and Murphy played. I think his rolls often have a sense of timing similar to Murphy's, a kind of delayed rather than even roll. However, he is also highly influenced by Bobby Casey and a host of pipers, so he uses bowed triplets rather more frequently than tough Kerry players.
Short answer. Message for more if you want it : P
--DtM
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: kerry ornamentations
Yesterday's 'Canúintí Ceoil' on TG4 was entirely devoted to the music of Sliabh Luachra (and also features CO'R's take on the subject).
Check Web TV once you've accessed the http://www.tg4.ie site.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by MacCruiskeen