This is a topic that probably won't interest bohdran players, pianists and box players (but I might be wrong!). It might interest anyone whose instrument can be adjusted in pitch - flute players, pipers, fiddlers, etc.
It's a new system for analysing the pitch of your instrument while you play. The benefits are obvious - you may be able to blow, suck, scrape or whatever your instrument in tune sitting in front of a tuner, but what really happens when you just relax and play music? This may tell you.
It's all pretty new, but seems to be bearing fruit. I could wait a few years and be sure it's working, or I could invite you to be part of cutting edge development. That choice is now yours.
Terry
This and other such- are a great benifits , I use may mates
sometime my self in my old age -lol
But there lossing something, Being able to pick out if you are
still in tune half way though the session, is the same nack
as learning how to learn a tune by ear,And that what make
Irish trad music so unique,,Has done for tears..I prefer to tune
to a whistle First, Or do as a friend of mine dose ,use the Mobil
phone ,,I think is a no-one there call - You will recieve a Perfect
G,,
lol - True,, jim,
You could be talking about fractions out, that are inaudible for the ear..and this would help you get a much better idea about your weaker popints over an hours playing or so...good idea
I've found that if you keep a tuner on when playing a recording from a very good player (even a classical player), the tuner is off with them too. I would suspect that would be the case with this program as well.
Eh, this is interesting from an academic standpoint, but I'm underwhelmed. For one, I can identify poor intonation in my own playing a whole lot better when I'm playing with other folks than when I'm playing alone, so I find the "sure, you use a tuner to check your intonation on your own, but what about when you're playing with other people?" question bizarre. (A slightly sharp B? Meh, whatever. A slightly sharp B played along with a perfect B? Easily identifiable even at 110 bpm.) Two, it wouldn't be *that* difficult to design a fretted fiddle. The reason that no one has (or, if someone has, the reason no halfway decent fiddler uses one) is because there are musically sound reasons to avail oneself occasionally of some pitches other than the 12 that an electronic tuner deems legal. (In other words, what kennedy said.)
A predecessor of the fiddle that had frets was the viol. The limitation with the viol family is that you're stuck with the key and scale pitches you've set up the frets for. Go more than one sharp or flat away from that key and it will progressively be more and more out of tune with acceptable intonation. The reasons are quite technical, but basically it's things like the B as the leading note of the key of C not being quite the same note as the B in the key of G. If you're using frets there's not a lot you can do about it. Which again is why the tuning of a guitar today is always a compromise.
This device might be useful if you're an orchestral player. But it is of any use to a trad player. What would it make of Paddy Canny? Connie O'Connell? Tommy Peoples? Do they play 'in tune'?
Of course it could be of use to a trad player. Suppose you wanted to sound more like Canny, O'Connell or Peoples and didn't have access to Michael Gill's ears. Presumably (and I haven't tried the software to confirm it) you could play some of their recordings to the program and have it give you a graph of how sharp or flat they tend to play their notes from some reference tuning. That would give you an indication of which notes to bend in which direction and how far as a first step toward achieving their sound.
The software doesn't make any judgments about whether someone plays in tune. The notion of what is in tune and what isn't is made by the person who uses the software. Furthermore, by downloading the software, the user agrees not to make public any analyses of the playing of living musicians in such a way that their identities can be determined.
As an academic exercise, it might be interesting, but the concept is fundamentally flawed---it dictates that players use their *eyes* to know when they're in tune instead of learning to *listen*. I don't need a machine to tell me whether or not I sound like Tommy Peoples (which I don't, of course). And even if I could have a program that would tell me when I did sound exactly like Tommy Peoples, I wouldn't use it, because I don't want to sound exactly like him.
Why is it that people are afraid to trust their ears? What's so scary about trying to be a better listener?
Tee hee... Typical thesession.org response to anyone who proposes some kind of technology to solve a problem. Rather than dismiss this on the basis of Terry's post, why don't you go and read the link he gives which suggests some potential uses.
One other use that hasn't been mentioned would be to have a look at what intonation you are *actually* using. Or for that matter that someone else is using. I think it would be interesting for someone used to playing equal temperament (or near enough) to actually see why it doesn't work out.
First, there isn't a single thing on the first half of that list that you can't do by listening.
Second, I don't know about flute makers, but I do know several fiddle makers, and all of them have highly trained listening skills---it's amazing what they can do without any machinery at all. I doubt they would think that this program could do a better job than they can they old-fashioned way.
What does the machine do if, for example, you slide up to your Fsharps from somewhere near the Fnat? Does it record that you are playing a sharp nat or a flat sharp? What if you prefer your Cnants slightly sharp anyway, or "sweet" as it's called? But not all the time? What does it do when you double stop? What does it do if you like to double stop your open e string with sliding up to the same note on your a string? What does it do when you crunch some notes into not realy notes at all? etcetera
This amused me - I couldn't get the whole caboodle to work, but the first bit of software... um... Tartini was amusing. Played into it, and thought f#ck, I'm out of tune. Then switched the scale to Pythagorean tuning... Bingo!
This system works. I've been working with the creator of the software and have plotted two different flutes on two different tunes. RTTA confirms that the 2nd flute (an old Lark in the Morining Pakistani special which I fixed and modified) plays as well in tune as any flute I've ever played and is now my main flute because it allows me to concentrate on music making rather than worrying about whether I'm in tune or not. The proof is when playing with others--at my last session it was so obvious that the flute was locked in; it was thrilling really the way it blended and harmonized when unexpected different settings intermingled. Flutes, by the way, particularly Irish flutes, are very difficult to play in tune (as probably many of you know) and Terry and Graeme (the technologist) designed the system primarily with flutes in mind.
Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Reel Time Tuning Analysis
This is a topic that probably won't interest bohdran players, pianists and box players (but I might be wrong!). It might interest anyone whose instrument can be adjusted in pitch - flute players, pipers, fiddlers, etc.
It's a new system for analysing the pitch of your instrument while you play. The benefits are obvious - you may be able to blow, suck, scrape or whatever your instrument in tune sitting in front of a tuner, but what really happens when you just relax and play music? This may tell you.
It's all pretty new, but seems to be bearing fruit. I could wait a few years and be sure it's working, or I could invite you to be part of cutting edge development. That choice is now yours.
If interested, start at:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA.htm
Oh, and I should mention, it's free.
Terry
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Terry McGee
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Terry
This and other such- are a great benifits , I use may mates
sometime my self in my old age -lol
But there lossing something, Being able to pick out if you are
still in tune half way though the session, is the same nack
as learning how to learn a tune by ear,And that what make
Irish trad music so unique,,Has done for tears..I prefer to tune
to a whistle First, Or do as a friend of mine dose ,use the Mobil
phone ,,I think is a no-one there call - You will recieve a Perfect
G,,
lol - True,, jim,
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Sorry about spelling mistakes - Early here in Ireland.
Terry have you got anything for Eyesight,,lol
jim,,,,
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
interesting, but i already have a couple of these devices, on the sides of my head.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
You could be talking about fractions out, that are inaudible for the ear..and this would help you get a much better idea about your weaker popints over an hours playing or so...good idea
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Did Dr. Strabismus invent this?
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
I've found that if you keep a tuner on when playing a recording from a very good player (even a classical player), the tuner is off with them too. I would suspect that would be the case with this program as well.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Eh, this is interesting from an academic standpoint, but I'm underwhelmed. For one, I can identify poor intonation in my own playing a whole lot better when I'm playing with other folks than when I'm playing alone, so I find the "sure, you use a tuner to check your intonation on your own, but what about when you're playing with other people?" question bizarre. (A slightly sharp B? Meh, whatever. A slightly sharp B played along with a perfect B? Easily identifiable even at 110 bpm.) Two, it wouldn't be *that* difficult to design a fretted fiddle. The reason that no one has (or, if someone has, the reason no halfway decent fiddler uses one) is because there are musically sound reasons to avail oneself occasionally of some pitches other than the 12 that an electronic tuner deems legal. (In other words, what kennedy said.)
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
A predecessor of the fiddle that had frets was the viol. The limitation with the viol family is that you're stuck with the key and scale pitches you've set up the frets for. Go more than one sharp or flat away from that key and it will progressively be more and more out of tune with acceptable intonation. The reasons are quite technical, but basically it's things like the B as the leading note of the key of C not being quite the same note as the B in the key of G. If you're using frets there's not a lot you can do about it. Which again is why the tuning of a guitar today is always a compromise.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
This device might be useful if you're an orchestral player. But it is of any use to a trad player. What would it make of Paddy Canny? Connie O'Connell? Tommy Peoples? Do they play 'in tune'?
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by granama
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
The second sentence above should read, "But is it of any use to the trad player?"
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by granama
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
"interesting, but i already have a couple of these devices, on the sides of my head."
Michael - I'm slowly building up a picture in my mind of what you look like.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by granama
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
very good!
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by de Selby
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Of course it could be of use to a trad player. Suppose you wanted to sound more like Canny, O'Connell or Peoples and didn't have access to Michael Gill's ears. Presumably (and I haven't tried the software to confirm it) you could play some of their recordings to the program and have it give you a graph of how sharp or flat they tend to play their notes from some reference tuning. That would give you an indication of which notes to bend in which direction and how far as a first step toward achieving their sound.
The software doesn't make any judgments about whether someone plays in tune. The notion of what is in tune and what isn't is made by the person who uses the software. Furthermore, by downloading the software, the user agrees not to make public any analyses of the playing of living musicians in such a way that their identities can be determined.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
As an academic exercise, it might be interesting, but the concept is fundamentally flawed---it dictates that players use their *eyes* to know when they're in tune instead of learning to *listen*. I don't need a machine to tell me whether or not I sound like Tommy Peoples (which I don't, of course). And even if I could have a program that would tell me when I did sound exactly like Tommy Peoples, I wouldn't use it, because I don't want to sound exactly like him.
Why is it that people are afraid to trust their ears? What's so scary about trying to be a better listener?
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
Tee hee... Typical thesession.org response to anyone who proposes some kind of technology to solve a problem. Rather than dismiss this on the basis of Terry's post, why don't you go and read the link he gives which suggests some potential uses.
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA/using.htm
Note number 11.
One other use that hasn't been mentioned would be to have a look at what intonation you are *actually* using. Or for that matter that someone else is using. I think it would be interesting for someone used to playing equal temperament (or near enough) to actually see why it doesn't work out.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
First, there isn't a single thing on the first half of that list that you can't do by listening.
Second, I don't know about flute makers, but I do know several fiddle makers, and all of them have highly trained listening skills---it's amazing what they can do without any machinery at all. I doubt they would think that this program could do a better job than they can they old-fashioned way.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
What does the machine do if, for example, you slide up to your Fsharps from somewhere near the Fnat? Does it record that you are playing a sharp nat or a flat sharp? What if you prefer your Cnants slightly sharp anyway, or "sweet" as it's called? But not all the time? What does it do when you double stop? What does it do if you like to double stop your open e string with sliding up to the same note on your a string? What does it do when you crunch some notes into not realy notes at all? etcetera
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
This amused me - I couldn't get the whole caboodle to work, but the first bit of software... um... Tartini was amusing. Played into it, and thought f#ck, I'm out of tune. Then switched the scale to Pythagorean tuning...
Bingo!
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
But seriously, it is common parlance in the mutandis household to refer to players as having "piano tuning", ie, tempered and dull.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
This system works. I've been working with the creator of the software and have plotted two different flutes on two different tunes. RTTA confirms that the 2nd flute (an old Lark in the Morining Pakistani special which I fixed and modified) plays as well in tune as any flute I've ever played and is now my main flute because it allows me to concentrate on music making rather than worrying about whether I'm in tune or not. The proof is when playing with others--at my last session it was so obvious that the flute was locked in; it was thrilling really the way it blended and harmonized when unexpected different settings intermingled. Flutes, by the way, particularly Irish flutes, are very difficult to play in tune (as probably many of you know) and Terry and Graeme (the technologist) designed the system primarily with flutes in mind.
You can see and hear the clips and their corresponding RTTA graphs at my webpage, http://www.geocities.com/jpollack2000/JasonClips.html.
Listen and look at Torn Jacket and Calliope House.
Cheers,
Jason
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by InSearchofCraic
Re: Reel Time Tuning Analysis
You forgot #12: Fun.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by Gzeg